26/05/2016 Newsnight


26/05/2016

With Kirsty Wark. Fresh doubts over whether the Hinkley nuclear plant will go ahead; immigration rises again; Nicola Sturgeon on what Brexit could mean for Scottish independence.


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Tonight: It's a deal worth more than ?18 billion and described

:00:07.:00:09.

by this Government as essential for the UK's energy plans.

:00:10.:00:13.

But Newsnight reveals that there are new doubts

:00:14.:00:16.

about whether Hinkley C nuclear plant will ever be built.

:00:17.:00:22.

And official consultation of the committee which represents the staff

:00:23.:00:27.

and unions within EDF is currently going ahead, Newsnight has

:00:28.:00:30.

exclusively spoken to the secretary of that committee and we have

:00:31.:00:33.

learned that the consultation is not going well. For the company.

:00:34.:00:40.

Also tonight: Net migration rises again to its second

:00:41.:00:42.

As immigration hits centre stage in the EU debate,

:00:43.:00:46.

we'll ask this Government minister and Brexiteer

:00:47.:00:49.

And Scotland's First Minister raises the prospect of a second referendum

:00:50.:00:53.

If Scotland is in the situation where we are faced with being taken

:00:54.:01:02.

out of the year even though we voted to stay in, of course there would be

:01:03.:01:06.

many people in Scotland, not everybody, but many who would say,

:01:07.:01:10.

we need to protect our EU membership. And, today in the United

:01:11.:01:16.

States. It could be that we will run against crazy Bernie, could become a

:01:17.:01:21.

crazy Bernie, here's a crazy man, but that is OK, we like crazy

:01:22.:01:23.

people! On the day Donald Trump

:01:24.:01:26.

all but clinches the Republican nomination, why is the man he calls

:01:27.:01:30.

"Crazy" Bernie about to face him We'll debate whether divisions

:01:31.:01:37.

in the Democrat party are making We begin tonight with fresh

:01:38.:01:41.

revelations about the future of the planned ?18 billion power

:01:42.:01:49.

plant at Hinkley Point in Somerset. It had originally been

:01:50.:01:54.

due to open next year, but has been hit by delay

:01:55.:01:57.

after delay after delay, and now won't open until 2026

:01:58.:02:00.

at the earliest. The latest setback came a month ago

:02:01.:02:03.

when the company said it was delaying giving the project

:02:04.:02:07.

the go-ahead until it had

:02:08.:02:09.

consulted its trade unions, Now Newsnight has exclusively been

:02:10.:02:10.

told that that consultation has so far done nothing to reassure

:02:11.:02:18.

the unions, and that there is little chance

:02:19.:02:23.

of them giving their blessing VOICEOVER: A symbol of so much,

:02:24.:02:39.

Hinkley C, a huge infrastructure plan, and ?18 million the life which

:02:40.:02:45.

could supply 7% of our electricity. -- ?18 billion a liar. It will be

:02:46.:02:49.

built by EDF, the electricity company majority-owned by the French

:02:50.:02:55.

state, and it is a victory in the attempts to court Beijing, a third

:02:56.:02:58.

of the capital will come from China. -- goliath. At the outset, critics

:02:59.:03:02.

had concerns about whether we may be overpaying for Hinkley C, but today,

:03:03.:03:09.

the real danger to this project comes from France, we are still

:03:10.:03:14.

awaiting final sign off. In France, the finance director left EDF over

:03:15.:03:18.

concerns about whether the financial risk of Hinkley C was too great, to

:03:19.:03:22.

understand why, it is worth looking across the Channel, two other places

:03:23.:03:26.

where it is building the same model of reactor as it plans for Hinkley

:03:27.:03:31.

C, the so-called EPR. It is an immensely save enormous structure,

:03:32.:03:36.

which, however, looks as though it is almost uncontrollable. There are

:03:37.:03:41.

two projects around the world where this exactly the same design very

:03:42.:03:44.

much the same design being constructive. Both of them are in

:03:45.:03:49.

enormous difficulty. The one in Finland is about ten years late, in

:03:50.:03:55.

Normandy, being created by EDF, that will be in the order of 12 years

:03:56.:04:01.

late at least. The French energy minister has already stated publicly

:04:02.:04:04.

that she has concerns about the cost and the risks associated with

:04:05.:04:08.

Hinkley C, the unions, who have particularly powerful officials

:04:09.:04:13.

within the state-owned company, also have concerns, they want the project

:04:14.:04:17.

forward. This week, the French finance minister, wrote to British

:04:18.:04:21.

MPs to explain to them that the project was still on track, but

:04:22.:04:25.

right now, there is a moratorium on Hinkley C, and that is because an

:04:26.:04:30.

official consultation of the committee which represents the staff

:04:31.:04:33.

and unions within EDF is going ahead. Newsnight has exclusively

:04:34.:04:39.

spoken with the secretary of the committee, and we have learned that

:04:40.:04:41.

the consultation is not going well, for the company. We were told:

:04:42.:05:15.

unions do not have a veto, could EDF press ahead against their will?

:05:16.:05:22.

Going for it would be for the government crossing a red line in

:05:23.:05:26.

their relationship with the trade unions, which would make it really

:05:27.:05:32.

difficult for the government, especially thinking about the next

:05:33.:05:35.

general election, where they will need to get back some support of the

:05:36.:05:40.

trade unions. Remember where we started, this is a political project

:05:41.:05:45.

as well as an economic project. The political commitments is completely

:05:46.:05:50.

confirmed, we back Hinckley point, it is very important for France, it

:05:51.:05:56.

is very important for the nuclear sector and EDF. -- Hinkley Point.

:05:57.:06:03.

Others are less convinced. I do not believe that it is going to start

:06:04.:06:06.

one day, I think that the chance is that it does not come online

:06:07.:06:15.

increase. The reason being... Making the decision for the project is not

:06:16.:06:20.

possible right now. The political cost, the cost for EDF's financial

:06:21.:06:27.

situation is too high. That could leave our government in an odd

:06:28.:06:31.

position, accused of paying too much for a nuclear power plant at home

:06:32.:06:35.

and in driving a hard bargain that was not deliverable abroad.

:06:36.:06:42.

STUDIO: The day the latest migration figures were released by the Office

:06:43.:06:44.

of National Statistics was always going to be a big moment

:06:45.:06:47.

The increase in net migration in 2015 was 20,000, bringing

:06:48.:06:51.

the figure to 330,000, and Boris Johnson called it

:06:52.:06:53.

a "scandalous Government failure", his Government's failure.

:06:54.:06:55.

He was referring to the Government's aspiration

:06:56.:06:56.

to cut the number to under 100,000.

:06:57.:06:58.

"The system has spun out of control," he exclaimed.

:06:59.:07:00.

So what exactly would the Brexiteers do about it?

:07:01.:07:02.

In a moment I'll be speaking to the Northern Ireland Secretary,

:07:03.:07:05.

Theresa Villiers, one of the six Cabinet members backing an EU exit.

:07:06.:07:14.

But first here's our political editor Nicholas Watt.

:07:15.:07:22.

VOICEOVER: From the shores of Sicily to the borders of Ukraine,

:07:23.:07:28.

uncontrolled flow of migrants entitled to enter Britain, that is

:07:29.:07:33.

the message spelt out in Churchill style language that the main Brexit

:07:34.:07:40.

campaign has delivered spell out the core reason for wanting to leave the

:07:41.:07:45.

EU, today was a big moment for the vote Leave campaign, the reason the

:07:46.:07:48.

final set of migration statistics before the referendum, net migration

:07:49.:07:53.

rose rainier record peak of 330,000 last year, illustrating a key theme,

:07:54.:07:58.

until the UK takes full control of its borders, it will fail to meet

:07:59.:08:02.

the government 's target of reducing net migration below 100,000.

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The blue line shows the greatest portion of EU migration is from all

:08:10.:08:15.

the member states, part of the club before the Big Bang expansion in

:08:16.:08:19.

2004, the yellow line shows the eight Eastern European countries

:08:20.:08:25.

that joined in 2004, the red line shows Romania, and Bulgaria, which

:08:26.:08:32.

joined in 2007. One senior Brexit figure believes that wherever they

:08:33.:08:35.

are coming from, the numbers must fall. The right number will be in

:08:36.:08:39.

the tens of thousands, between the low tens, and up to about 100,000. I

:08:40.:08:46.

find it hard to imagine a circumstance where it would be

:08:47.:08:49.

beneficial to Britain to have more than 100,000 every year. But, you

:08:50.:08:54.

must let the economy drive that. The vote to leave campaign is focusing

:08:55.:09:00.

heavily on immigration in the final phase of the campaign to get the

:09:01.:09:05.

vote out, a full 58% of the electorate believe that immigration

:09:06.:09:11.

would fall if the UK left the EU. Clear red line for the government is

:09:12.:09:15.

that the British people are voting to leave the European Union on the

:09:16.:09:19.

23rd, on the 24th, the government must recognise that one key

:09:20.:09:23.

component of what they voted forward border control. Whatever else we

:09:24.:09:27.

discuss and negotiate with the European Union about whatever kind

:09:28.:09:31.

of arrangements over trade, border control is our red line, that is

:09:32.:09:32.

exactly what they voted. White Vote -- Vote Leave has ambitions beyond

:09:33.:09:42.

June 24, they believe that by gaining full control of the UK

:09:43.:09:45.

borders, the government of the day will be able to achieve something

:09:46.:09:49.

unprecedented in the modern era, consent for immigration. Vote Leave

:09:50.:09:53.

source said that he dreams of a day when he will be able to stand up in

:09:54.:09:58.

Parliament and make the case for higher immigration on the basis that

:09:59.:10:00.

the UK alone would be setting a limit is. -- one Vote Leave source.

:10:01.:10:07.

It is not beyond our wits to come up with a system which would be a

:10:08.:10:11.

combination, whether it is an Australian points system,

:10:12.:10:16.

recognition of historic links and responsible it is, skills needed,

:10:17.:10:19.

all of those things, but the key element is that it is decided at

:10:20.:10:22.

Westminster and has the consent of the people who have elected us. An

:10:23.:10:27.

absence of consent does not allow you to take that kind of leadership.

:10:28.:10:32.

Required to say that within controlled immigration can and is a

:10:33.:10:40.

good thing. Tonight, the first official debate of the campaign was

:10:41.:10:44.

held in Glasgow. Immigration was to the fore. Are you saying that if

:10:45.:10:49.

Britain votes to leave, there would be visas or there would not?

:10:50.:10:54.

Victoria, we just do not know. We just do not know. BOOING

:10:55.:11:00.

Because we have a Prime Minister who has said that there is no Plan B, he

:11:01.:11:04.

has not presented a single bit of detail as to what happens, if we

:11:05.:11:09.

vote to leave, and he has left it all completely open. These exchanges

:11:10.:11:14.

highlighted the need to tread carefully on such a sensitive

:11:15.:11:18.

subject, think of immigration as a lily pad, I was told, allowing the

:11:19.:11:25.

vote leave frog to jump into less contentious areas, like pressures on

:11:26.:11:30.

the NHS, in a way that appeals across the political spectrum, they

:11:31.:11:31.

believe they have a path to victory. STUDIO: I am joined by the Northern

:11:32.:11:37.

Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, who wants to see the UK

:11:38.:11:40.

leave the EU. Good evening, let's go through a few

:11:41.:11:49.

of the migration issues. If we vote to leave the EU, we close borders,

:11:50.:11:56.

is that correct? We would still have immigration if we vote to leave the

:11:57.:11:59.

EU, the different would be that the people we vote to elect at

:12:00.:12:08.

Westminster would decide. Would there be fewer people, do you agree

:12:09.:12:11.

with the point by David Davis, maximum 100,000 every year? It gives

:12:12.:12:16.

us the chance to bring down the current numbers. That is the idea.

:12:17.:12:21.

Without taking control of immigration policy again, we have no

:12:22.:12:24.

chance of getting a grip on the current numbers. You think the

:12:25.:12:29.

numbers are too high. I think they are too high. We have a manifesto

:12:30.:12:33.

commitment to get them down under 100,000. Let's say that the economy

:12:34.:12:39.

is doing extremely well and you need workers, and you need workers from

:12:40.:12:44.

all over the world, if you needed 330,000 workers, you would be happy

:12:45.:12:50.

to have 330,000? If you had 350,000 that you need it, would that be

:12:51.:12:54.

happy? We have a commitment to bring down the numbers below 100,000, call

:12:55.:12:58.

me old-fashioned, we should try to achieve that. That is a principle,

:12:59.:13:03.

100,000, no matter if the economy was booming and you needed those

:13:04.:13:07.

workers, the door would be closed? The reality is that we would

:13:08.:13:12.

introduce a more intelligent system, focused on the skills gap, which

:13:13.:13:16.

judges people more fairly, from wherever they come in the world,

:13:17.:13:20.

judged on merit rather than if they happen to come from an EU country.

:13:21.:13:25.

No matter how things are going, you say you cannot see a situation where

:13:26.:13:29.

we would need more than 100,000 every year? Beyond the next general

:13:30.:13:32.

election it is up to the party to put forward their numbers, but we

:13:33.:13:36.

have a manifesto commitment, obviously we are determined to

:13:37.:13:42.

deliver on that. Below 100,000? Obviously in the future, after a

:13:43.:13:45.

general election, those commitments can change, at the moment, our

:13:46.:13:50.

commitment is to bring numbers down below 100000 and there is a lot of

:13:51.:13:54.

support for that. Let's talk about how this will work.

:13:55.:14:01.

Let's just talk about how this would work. Let's say you have Britons

:14:02.:14:07.

working in France, would they have to come back home and apply for

:14:08.:14:14.

visas? It is very clear that if immigration rules change, they can't

:14:15.:14:17.

apply retrospectively, so no one who is already working in France would

:14:18.:14:23.

be forced to come back. That is what you say, but the French might not

:14:24.:14:28.

say it. We are all banned by international conventions, so it is

:14:29.:14:35.

clear that whether you are an EU worker in the UK or a work in the

:14:36.:14:39.

rest of Europe, rules on freedom of movement do not apply

:14:40.:14:43.

retrospectively. So let's say that there is a Polish nurse here now,

:14:44.:14:47.

but she wants to bring her mother over after we would hypothetically

:14:48.:14:53.

leave the EU. Would you have to get a Visa? That will be down to the

:14:54.:14:58.

Government that we elect. The principle here is not leave campaign

:14:59.:15:04.

mandating a new immigration system. We want to give power back to the

:15:05.:15:08.

Government to take decisions on immigration. So is it possible a

:15:09.:15:13.

family member could just come in? If you listen to that debate tonight,

:15:14.:15:18.

Diane James from Ukip were saying we just don't know about visas for

:15:19.:15:25.

people. And people are concerned, if you are a young Polish worker here,

:15:26.:15:29.

your mother is sick in Poland and you want to bring her over, would

:15:30.:15:33.

you need a tech backstreet? What this debate is about is who takes

:15:34.:15:38.

the decisions on migration. There is a great amount of support in this

:15:39.:15:41.

country for taking our own decisions on migration. The beauty of that is

:15:42.:15:46.

we have democratic accountability, at the moment these decisions are

:15:47.:15:51.

made by a council of Ministers, the European court of justice, not by

:15:52.:15:56.

people who are elected. So a young Polish person who can vote in this

:15:57.:15:58.

EU Referendum Bill but a young person from Britain can. So say you

:15:59.:16:04.

are a young architect, you want to go to Berlin or Prague. You would

:16:05.:16:09.

need a tech backstreet ago, presumably? We are not mandating the

:16:10.:16:12.

rules would will be applying in the rest of the EU in the event of a UK

:16:13.:16:21.

exit, but there are thousands of citizens from around the world who

:16:22.:16:25.

work in Europe, many of whom do not come from EU member states, there

:16:26.:16:27.

were thousands of the Jewish people who worked in the EU -- thousands of

:16:28.:16:39.

British people working in EU before we joined. But this is putting

:16:40.:16:44.

pressure on our public services and housing. But people thinking about

:16:45.:16:48.

how they are going to vote want answers. Every young person wants to

:16:49.:16:54.

go to Europe to be an architect, or if a young German person wants to

:16:55.:16:57.

come here and learn to be an architect, they will have to have a

:16:58.:17:01.

visa, is that right? There may be changes in the terms on which people

:17:02.:17:05.

can travel, but these would be decided in Britain as a result of

:17:06.:17:10.

democratically accountable decisions, and we ought to take into

:17:11.:17:17.

account another problem for young people and that mass migration from

:17:18.:17:20.

Europe is depressing wages in this country, that is a fact. Let's talk

:17:21.:17:26.

about security. We already know the French have said that there will be

:17:27.:17:29.

no border in Calais, the border will have to go back over here. The

:17:30.:17:36.

French government have said various different things about this. The

:17:37.:17:39.

Justice Minister has been supportive of those arrangements. The reality

:17:40.:17:44.

is the French camp all the plug... The Financial Times, March the 3rd,

:17:45.:17:50.

Emanuel macron, the French Minister said, the day this unravels,

:17:51.:17:53.

migrants will no longer be in Calais, they will be on the dish

:17:54.:18:00.

coast, won't they? The French home affairs Minister has been very

:18:01.:18:03.

supportive of this. It is a bilateral arrangement, the French

:18:04.:18:07.

could all the plug right now they wanted to, but the reasons the

:18:08.:18:10.

arrangement is in place is because it is in the interests of both

:18:11.:18:14.

France and the UK, so there is no reason for them to pull the plug.

:18:15.:18:19.

But the point is, the migrants who want to come here, why would the

:18:20.:18:23.

French bother stopping them, locking them up, having them in the

:18:24.:18:29.

so-called Jungle at Calais? It will be up to Britain to deal with them

:18:30.:18:33.

when they wish. But this arrangement is in France's interest as well as

:18:34.:18:36.

the UK's, otherwise it wouldn't be in operation now. Let's look

:18:37.:18:42.

somewhere else, and this is your territory, where we have a land

:18:43.:18:45.

border between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and there is no

:18:46.:18:49.

question of the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU. Will that border the

:18:50.:18:56.

entirely open? I would say it will be entirely open. We had a common

:18:57.:19:00.

travel area allowing free movement of people between the Republic of

:19:01.:19:03.

Ireland and the United Kingdom ever since the creation of the Irish

:19:04.:19:08.

state 100 years ago. But there wasn't free movement of peoples and

:19:09.:19:13.

the rest of the EU. So in your view, should there be an open border

:19:14.:19:17.

between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland? Definitely. The

:19:18.:19:22.

Common travel area survived a civil war, World War I30 years of the

:19:23.:19:28.

Troubles. It will survive the exit. So theoretically, any member from

:19:29.:19:30.

European state could come to Southern Ireland and go straight

:19:31.:19:37.

into Northern Ireland and into the United Kingdom? There is nothing to

:19:38.:19:41.

stop them doing that. , travel area gives rights to Irish citizens which

:19:42.:19:44.

would be absolutely maintained in the event of a Brexit. I don't mean

:19:45.:19:50.

are citizens. I mean other people who wish to enter the UK, can

:19:51.:19:55.

somebody do it through the Northern Ireland Southern Ireland open

:19:56.:19:59.

border? There would be certain risks to be managed in retaining an open

:20:00.:20:03.

border in the event of a Brexit vote, but very similar risks already

:20:04.:20:08.

occur and are appropriately managed through Corporation between the

:20:09.:20:14.

authorities... What are those risks? Individuals coming into Ireland who

:20:15.:20:18.

may not have an entitlement to come into the UK, so those risks occur

:20:19.:20:22.

today. The idea that suddenly we will have hundreds of thousands of

:20:23.:20:27.

citizens from other EU countries heading across-the-board between

:20:28.:20:30.

Ireland and the UK, it is fanciful, to be honest. If we change the rules

:20:31.:20:35.

on free movement, there would be constraints on the rights of those

:20:36.:20:41.

EU citizens to enter the UK. But if you tighten borders elsewhere, while

:20:42.:20:44.

even this border open? Because of the close relationship that we have

:20:45.:20:49.

between the UK and Ireland. Because that open border has served us well

:20:50.:20:53.

for 100 years, there is no need to scrap it, and it is important for

:20:54.:20:56.

border areas of Northern Ireland that we keep it. Let's move on to

:20:57.:21:02.

the last hurrah before purdah, the last piece of Treasury analysis. The

:21:03.:21:06.

analysis is that people will be worse off in terms of their pensions

:21:07.:21:12.

between 220 ?330 per year if we leave the EU. You are the former

:21:13.:21:18.

Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Is that a reasonable

:21:19.:21:21.

assumption? I don't believe that it is, and I don't believe people are

:21:22.:21:24.

taken in by what I'm not neutral reports. We can trade these

:21:25.:21:30.

forecasts from here until referendum day, but the last time the Treasury

:21:31.:21:34.

predicted a shock in the way they are doing at the moment was when we

:21:35.:21:41.

were members of the ERM, they said they would be an inflation Russia

:21:42.:21:45.

and the economy would crash, the truth, inflation came down, interest

:21:46.:21:52.

rates came down, we had a decade of growth, they were wrong then and

:21:53.:21:55.

they are wrong now. Theresa Villiers, thank you grow much for

:21:56.:21:56.

joining us. Now, if you're sick of referendums

:21:57.:22:00.

already - surely not! Polls tell us that Scotland is more

:22:01.:22:02.

in favour of remaining in the EU But there's been some suggestion

:22:03.:22:07.

that if the UK votes to leave, Scotland might, in turn, hold

:22:08.:22:11.

another independence referendum. Who better to tell us

:22:12.:22:13.

than Scotland's first Put in the words "our country"

:22:14.:22:15.

instead of "Scotland", and that is a pretty powerful

:22:16.:22:34.

argument for leaving One of the reasons, one of the many

:22:35.:22:36.

reasons I want Scotland to be an independent country is so that

:22:37.:22:42.

as an independent country in an interdependent world,

:22:43.:22:44.

we decide for ourselves the extent to which we share sovereignty

:22:45.:22:47.

and the organisations that we choose I am somebody who believes

:22:48.:22:52.

in Scottish independence, I want Scotland to be

:22:53.:22:55.

outward-looking and play a full part in the world,

:22:56.:23:03.

and the European Union is an organisation I want Scotland,

:23:04.:23:05.

whether it is independent or part But you could argue,

:23:06.:23:08.

and have some sympathy for the argument, presumably,

:23:09.:23:12.

that the EU is a distant force that doesn't actually understand

:23:13.:23:15.

different countries' cultures For me, that is an argument

:23:16.:23:17.

for countries to be in there trying to change and reform the union

:23:18.:23:21.

and make it more responsible I do just think this

:23:22.:23:23.

argument that being a member of the EU is inconsistent

:23:24.:23:27.

with being an independent All 28 member state of the EU

:23:28.:23:29.

are independent countries, and if you go to Germany

:23:30.:23:35.

or France or Sweden... But Scotland is not an

:23:36.:23:37.

independent country. And actually no

:23:38.:23:51.

prospect of being so. We may agree to differ on that,

:23:52.:23:54.

but let's not go there just now. What I'm saying is, whether Scotland

:23:55.:23:57.

is an independent country or part of the UK, I think it is better

:23:58.:24:00.

for our interests overall to be playing a part in the world,

:24:01.:24:04.

cooperating with other independent countries to deal with the issues,

:24:05.:24:06.

climate change, energy security, refugee crises, that

:24:07.:24:08.

countries themselves can't The scenario would be that

:24:09.:24:10.

Scotland votes to remain, but overall, the United

:24:11.:24:14.

Kingdom votes to leave. You have been repeatedly asked

:24:15.:24:16.

about whether or not there would be I am not going to get dragged,

:24:17.:24:19.

no matter how hard you try, I am not going to get dragged

:24:20.:24:30.

too far into the realms of the speculative,

:24:31.:24:33.

because I actually don't want It is only four weeks out,

:24:34.:24:35.

you have to be public, surely. With the greatest of respect,

:24:36.:24:39.

I think I'm entitled in those four weeks as somebody who believes

:24:40.:24:41.

that there should be a Remain vote to argue the case for

:24:42.:24:44.

a Remain vote not only I have argued that

:24:45.:24:47.

for my whole adult life. But I don't want to see the UK vote

:24:48.:24:52.

to come out of the union. On that basis, would you do

:24:53.:24:55.

anything it took? Would you share a platform

:24:56.:24:58.

with David Cameron? I will take part over the next few

:24:59.:25:00.

weeks in some debates around the European Union and membership,

:25:01.:25:06.

but I will make the case that Would you share a platform

:25:07.:25:09.

with David Cameron? There are no plans as far

:25:10.:25:12.

as I am aware... Look, I'm not planning to share

:25:13.:25:14.

a platform with David Cameron, but this is much bigger than just

:25:15.:25:18.

individual politicians. I am having to try hard

:25:19.:25:20.

to keep up with all these Scotland votes to remain,

:25:21.:25:29.

England votes narrowly to go, and Scotland's vote pulls

:25:30.:25:35.

England over the line. What would the atmosphere be

:25:36.:25:39.

like then with the Again, I'm not going to get dragged

:25:40.:25:41.

into the speculation around I hope, and what I'm going to focus

:25:42.:25:46.

on for the next four weeks is playing my part,

:25:47.:25:50.

albeit my small part, in trying to make sure

:25:51.:25:52.

that there is a big overwhelming vote in Scotland, and I hope

:25:53.:25:55.

there is also an overwhelming vote But if there is a vote in Scotland

:25:56.:25:58.

to remain and a vote throughout the rest of the UK to go,

:25:59.:26:03.

can you see a situation in which there wouldn't be

:26:04.:26:06.

the possibility of a referendum? I think, and I have said this

:26:07.:26:09.

before, if Scotland is in the situation where we are faced

:26:10.:26:12.

with being taken out of the EU even though we voted to stay

:26:13.:26:15.

in, particularly given the fact that we were told

:26:16.:26:17.

that it was independence that imperilled our EU membership,

:26:18.:26:20.

then of course I think that there would be many people

:26:21.:26:23.

in Scotland, not everybody, but many people in Scotland,

:26:24.:26:28.

who'd say, we have to protect our EU membership and look again

:26:29.:26:31.

at independence as the way If you were free to do so,

:26:32.:26:34.

and I say this because, as you know, migration is one of the big issues

:26:35.:26:38.

around this EU referendum, if you were free to do so,

:26:39.:26:41.

would you take more non-EU I think countries should

:26:42.:26:44.

have the ability, and Scotland should have the ability,

:26:45.:26:48.

to set its immigration policy based People come into this country

:26:49.:26:50.

from other EU countries and make a net positive

:26:51.:26:55.

contribution to our economy. The figures that are published

:26:56.:26:57.

today, the increase in net migration on my reading is as much to do with

:26:58.:27:08.

a fall in emigration as it is to do There are as many people coming

:27:09.:27:13.

from outside of the EU as that are from inside the EU,

:27:14.:27:17.

so let's have a fact-based Let's not lose sight of that central

:27:18.:27:19.

point, that EU migrants actually make a net positive

:27:20.:27:24.

contribution to our economy, and that is before we talk

:27:25.:27:26.

about the cultural and social advantages of having people able

:27:27.:27:29.

to come here and people from here able to go

:27:30.:27:31.

to other European countries. Looking at who you think

:27:32.:27:35.

your main opposition The principal party

:27:36.:27:37.

of opposition is the Tories. And that says, I think,

:27:38.:27:41.

actually more about the state of the Labour Party in Scotland

:27:42.:27:43.

than it does about the state But I'm more interested

:27:44.:27:46.

in what my job is as the Government of Scotland to lead Scotland,

:27:47.:27:52.

to tackle the challenges we have is a country and to seize

:27:53.:27:55.

the massive opportunities If, the day after the referendum,

:27:56.:27:57.

Scotland is out of the I hope that is not the case,

:27:58.:28:02.

and if that is the scenario we find ourselves in on the 24th of June,

:28:03.:28:10.

I will guarantee I will sit down with you and we will have

:28:11.:28:13.

this conversation. But I'm going to spend as much

:28:14.:28:15.

energy as I can in the almost four weeks now between now and the 23rd

:28:16.:28:19.

of June making the case for that I hope people vote, and I hope

:28:20.:28:22.

people vote in large numbers to stay Nicola Sturgeon says that she will

:28:23.:28:28.

be on Newsnight on the 24th of June. Republican and Democratic

:28:29.:28:50.

presidential candidates traditionally do not debate each

:28:51.:28:52.

other until both parties have selected their nominees,

:28:53.:28:54.

but then there's not much that's So perhaps it shouldn't be

:28:55.:28:56.

a surprise that today we learned that Donald Trump wants

:28:57.:29:00.

to debate the underdog Democratic Party challenger,

:29:01.:29:02.

Bernie Sanders. The move will further

:29:03.:29:03.

frustrate his rival, frontrunner Hillary Clinton,

:29:04.:29:05.

who wasn't invited to this particular showdown, and who has

:29:06.:29:07.

plenty of her own troubles. Today the State Department's

:29:08.:29:12.

Inspector General found that Clinton ignored clear guidance

:29:13.:29:14.

that her e-mail set-up broke agency rules and could have left government

:29:15.:29:17.

secrets vulnerable to hackers. Joining us to discuss these

:29:18.:29:22.

developments are Nomiki Konst, O journalist and broadcaster who

:29:23.:29:39.

used to in turn for Hillary Clinton. I'm not sure why you introduced me

:29:40.:29:46.

as an intern, I did that when I was in college, 15 years ago. It was

:29:47.:29:51.

rather than simply being a supporter, you were somebody who

:29:52.:29:56.

knows Hillary Clinton. No, I don't, I interned on her campaign as a

:29:57.:30:02.

college student. I was booked to discuss my column on Bernie Sanders.

:30:03.:30:06.

If you are looking for someone to speak for the campaign, I should

:30:07.:30:11.

probably encourage you to book summary of. I'm very happy to talk

:30:12.:30:15.

about the entire idea of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, we are

:30:16.:30:18.

live on television, and that is what we would like to talk about. Is

:30:19.:30:22.

there anything wrong with Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump going

:30:23.:30:23.

head-to-head just now? It is kind of adding to the reality

:30:24.:30:30.

show nature of this campaign, I have got to be honest, I was under the

:30:31.:30:34.

impression I was here to discuss a column I wrote for the daily beast

:30:35.:30:38.

about race and Bernie Sanders, I did not know that I was here to talk

:30:39.:30:41.

about the reality show nature of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump

:30:42.:30:44.

ready to have a verbal wrestling match. -- Daily Beast. Really we are

:30:45.:30:52.

just here for your knowledge on the campaign, looking across from the

:30:53.:30:55.

Atlantic. You think that Hillary Clinton should bite the bullet,

:30:56.:31:00.

should she get Memento and going, even if she has to take on Donald

:31:01.:31:03.

Trump now, do that, get some momentum? Yes, I think that she has

:31:04.:31:11.

been critiquing Donald Trump in her speeches, which indicates she's

:31:12.:31:14.

looking ahead to the general, not really focused on the primary

:31:15.:31:18.

anymore, it is unrealistic that Bernie Sanders can catch her in the

:31:19.:31:22.

delegate count, that is what matters in terms of who will be the

:31:23.:31:27.

Democratic nominee. We are in a situation now where Bernie Sanders

:31:28.:31:31.

himself could actually make some traction with this kind of debate,

:31:32.:31:37.

you are keen to talk about Bernie Sanders and race, what is it in

:31:38.:31:41.

particular that you think that he is achieving? The column that I wrote,

:31:42.:31:44.

that I was under the impression I was here to discuss, was the level

:31:45.:31:48.

of harassment that African-American journalists like myself have faced

:31:49.:31:51.

when they have dared to criticise Bernie Sanders, one of the reasons

:31:52.:31:54.

I'm disappointed in how your produces chose to introduce me is

:31:55.:31:58.

one of the misconceptions that Bernie Sanders supporters have been

:31:59.:32:01.

spreading is that anyone who is critical of him must be a supporter

:32:02.:32:05.

of Hillary Clinton or paid by the Clinton campaign. Part of the

:32:06.:32:08.

misinformation of that is that people like myself, who in turn for

:32:09.:32:12.

the Clinton campaign 15 years ago, when I was in college, was described

:32:13.:32:16.

as someone who was a secret supporter of Hillary Clinton. People

:32:17.:32:20.

like Diane Sawyer worked for president Nixon when she was young,

:32:21.:32:24.

she went on to become a very accomplished journalist, her

:32:25.:32:27.

integrity was not questioned. And so I was talking about my piece about

:32:28.:32:33.

how the level of insult attacks and derogatory claims made by Sanders

:32:34.:32:36.

supporters against female journalists and African-American

:32:37.:32:43.

journalists really spoke to a level of indecency and a lack of civility.

:32:44.:32:47.

In the campaign cycle, which we have not seen before. Who is instigating

:32:48.:32:54.

it? Well, look, one of the things I learned in my column is that it was

:32:55.:32:58.

not one person or two people, it was a coordinated effort, I have someone

:32:59.:33:02.

who works in me who reads my mail, the read a lot of my e-mail and

:33:03.:33:06.

social media, and really goes through it, I was attacked so badly

:33:07.:33:09.

for about a week after I wrote several months ago that I did not

:33:10.:33:13.

consider Bernie Sanders particularly electable because polling shows that

:33:14.:33:17.

socialists in America have a very tough time being accepted. By

:33:18.:33:21.

voters. What I found is that the level of attacks were so bad that

:33:22.:33:25.

there were Sanders people that said my Facebook page, please stop

:33:26.:33:29.

attacking her, and after that, one of the Sanders supporters responded

:33:30.:33:32.

in kind, she is a journalist, anything short of violence should be

:33:33.:33:38.

acceptable...? Taking this to the last question which I want to ask,

:33:39.:33:40.

is there something that Hillary Clinton can do to unite this very

:33:41.:33:47.

fractious, if we are to be believed, very fractious Democratic race,

:33:48.:33:49.

obviously you have faced that yourself.

:33:50.:33:56.

The onus is on people like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump to

:33:57.:34:02.

discourage violence at rallies, the onus is on Bernie Sanders to

:34:03.:34:06.

vigorously denounced the threats that female Democratic official in

:34:07.:34:11.

Nevada has received from many of the supporters, death threats that she

:34:12.:34:14.

received, which he did not vigorously denounced, the onus is on

:34:15.:34:18.

him to say that we can disagree, you can hate her writing, you can think

:34:19.:34:21.

Kelly Gough is a terrible writer, I'm sure when the people do, but

:34:22.:34:27.

there is a level of decency, and civility that we need to maintain in

:34:28.:34:32.

our society full. -- Kelli Goff. Thank you very much a joining us.

:34:33.:34:36.

-- that we need to maintain in our society.

:34:37.:34:42.

On Friday President Obama will travel to Hiroshima,

:34:43.:34:44.

becoming the first American president to visit the city

:34:45.:34:46.

where the US dropped the first atomic bomb during World War II.

:34:47.:34:49.

It's a trip his ten predecessors since Truman have avoided.

:34:50.:34:51.

The White House says there will be no apology.

:34:52.:34:54.

But some survivors of the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki

:34:55.:34:56.

We spoke to some survivors about their memories

:34:57.:34:59.

Viewers may find some of their stories distressing.

:35:00.:38:41.

The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base, that was

:38:42.:38:47.

because we wished in this first attack to avoid insofar as possible

:38:48.:38:53.

the killing of civilians. We have used it in order to sharpen the

:38:54.:38:55.

agony of war. That is all we have time for, good

:38:56.:42:34.

Sky being lit up in the south by a series of thunderstorms, could well

:42:35.:42:48.

be heavy showers around. Across Wales and Southern counties.

:42:49.:42:50.

Steadily fading, then the afternoon

:42:51.:42:51.

With Kirsty Wark. Fresh doubts over whether the Hinkley nuclear plant will go ahead; immigration rises again; Nicola Sturgeon on what Brexit could mean for Scottish independence; could Bernie Sanders stop Hillary Clinton?


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