Browse content similar to 14/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The unravelling of a prime-ministerial legacy, | :00:07. | :00:07. | |
less than three months after he's gone. | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
It's about time people just stopped dissing him all the time, | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
and actually see him for what he has done for my party and, | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
Did Cameron's party always disliked what he did, or does every new | :00:16. | :00:28. | |
leader have to dump the narrative of the last one? We ask one of his | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
earlier supporters, Nicholas Soames. Also tonight in Strasbourg, | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
Europe asks how it can shape its future without us | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
to help them along. The man charged by Parliament with | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
negotiating Brexit has this to say. Stop the politics of division, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
and seize this opportunity not to kill Europe, as some of you want, | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
but to reinvent Europe. The former Prime Minister | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
of Finland thinks Brexit And, the EU migrants | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
in Britain facing deportation TRANSLATION: If you're working, | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
it's not a problem, but if you can't find work to support yourself, | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
then it's hard. You won't have anywhere to sleep, | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
because if you're not paid, "History will be kind to me", | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
Winston Churchill once said, Every living Prime Minister has | :01:11. | :01:26. | |
to watch as their legacy For some though, it | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
comes rather quickly. Our former Prime Minister, David | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
Cameron, relinquished all the final trappings of power this week, | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
as he stepped down as an MP. Barely had he left the scene than | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
a new narrative began to emerge. One where he faces criticism | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
for his intervention in Libya in 2011, where his education | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
policies are turned upside down, where austerity becomes a word | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
of a bygone age and where we're no There seems to be little love | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
lost between Theresa May and David Cameron, | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
and every leader wants But there is a nakedness to leaving | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
office, a vulnerability exposed Newsnight has learned that senior | :02:01. | :02:18. | |
advisers to Theresa May think that the differentiation strategy from | :02:19. | :02:19. | |
David Cameron has gone too far. It was bloodless, but it was a | :02:20. | :02:29. | |
purge. Theresa May has not yet reached her first 100 days in | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
office, at already our new leader has gone out of her way to hairbrush | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
David Cameron from history. -- to airbursh. Theresa May is | :02:37. | :02:48. | |
absolutely right saying I am my own woman, this is the person that I am. | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
She's absolutely right to do that. She has to put a bit of blue water | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
between herself and the previous administration. It may be the most | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
rapid transfer of power in recent history, but the Prime Minister had | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
clearly been thinking long and hard about how she would differentiate | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
herself from David Cameron. Out went most of the eater Tony ands, the | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
northern powerhouse, and in came Grammar schools. -- out went most of | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
the Etonians. She is definitely trying to be different to David | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
Cameron. She knows that Cameron at the start talks about education and | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
progress, but he didn't talk about selection, he took a stand against | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
selection. She has chosen to go in favour of selection. It can't but be | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
intentional. It has upset some of Cameron's most ardent supporters. | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
We've got to stop trashing David Cameron. And I'm not a Cameroon. I | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
didn't go to any parties at Chequers. I'm not part of his in a | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
circle. I'm just grateful for everything he's done for my party at | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
my country. I thought he was an outstanding Prime Minister and | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
fabulous leader of my party. It's about time people stopped dissing | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
him and saw him for what he has done for our country. Some of his allies | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
are biding their time before deciding when to strike back. | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
Newsnight understands that one of his friends shouted out viva Cameron | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
when she fired the shot and sacked him. | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
Perhaps some of the elements of their differentiation strategy have | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
gone too far. An old friend of the former Prime Minister's, who is | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
helping him with his memoirs, wings that the differences are being | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
exaggerated. We're right to think about those differences and comment | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
on them, but we may then be missing something which is also important, | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
which is similarities about one centrist, modernising Conservative | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
Prime Minister giving way to another centrist modernising Conservative | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
Prime Minister. He thinks that Theresa May should be given support | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
for consistency for her support for selection. I was director of policy | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
when she was Shadow Secretary of State for Education and William | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
Hague was the leader of the Conservative Party and this was the | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
agenda that she developed then. She has had to wait all this time | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
diplomat it. If she had been part of the Cameron in a government, as it | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
were, she would probably have done some of this by now. So because of | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
being slightly outside it whilst still being a moderniser, she has | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
got a change agenda but inside that sort of Cameron worldview. I think | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
that's probably quite a good balance. One veteran Tory says we | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
should remember that Theresa May has taken over in wholly different | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
circumstances to the last two Prime Minister 's who entered number ten | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
without an election. There was an elements of failure both with Tony | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Blair and Mrs Thatcher that gave a chance to a new leader and they | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
could take on something different. David Cameron, in my mind, that | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
wasn't really the case. Of course, the referendum turned out to be an | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
Arab and a catastrophic one and it has cost him. But the rest of the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
policy was going in a way where he could say made some successes. The | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
economy has picked up. He was points ahead in the opinion polls and all | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
that. So it wasn't quite the same circumstances. David Cameron is | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
living up to his commitment to go dark, but he will be back. With | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
Churchill's dictum about the importance of recording the first | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
draft of history, he is busy scribbling away at his memoirs. We | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
will have more from Nick Watt later. But now Sir Nicholas Soames, | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
one of David Camerons earliest parliamentary supporters, | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
joins me now. I don't think I've ever done this | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
before but we don't actually know where you stand on his legacy. | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
You were booked on the basis that we agreed to "suck it and see"! | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Why don't we start by getting a sense, do you think this is the | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
dismantling of Cameron's policy? I don't. This is a new Prime Minister. | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
David Cameron has left, to my sadness, is under 58 and still with | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
a lot more to give, but he has decided to go and he has gone and | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
the party has moved quickly to elect a new Prime Minister, and she has | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
every right to have who she wants in our cabinet, who she wants in what | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
job, and she is part of the very first Cameron government and I think | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
she is building on it. A complete coincidence that he acknowledges his | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
resignation ten minutes before Justine Greening gets up to stand on | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
grammar schools, or that she made a speech and very first words are | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
about elitism being rejected, about austerity being rejected? About all | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
those things we've heard so much about over the past six years? I'm | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
the wrong person to get on this because I don't know anything about | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
the ins and outs, I'm not being naive about it but I just don't | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
know. I believe that David Cameron was right to resign, actually, | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
because I think he does feel that every time he chooses to say | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
something, and he will want to say stuff as a member of Parliament, he | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
will be put, as Ted Heath was, in a very ill judged time that he was out | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
of office. So I think he was right to do that. I think the situation | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
is, as Nick Watt said in his piece, the situation has completely | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
changed. We have this extraordinary challenge of Brexit. The very harsh | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
austerity... But even her own advisers think that she's gone too | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
far. In terms of differentiation, if you pick five things in the last | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
week, and I'm not even counting the Libya report which obviously has | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
come independently, whether it is education, whether it is this bores | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
on Hinkley Point, which we will know about soon, whether it is HS two, | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
the relations with the Chinese, the grammar schools, all the rest of it, | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
you don't have to look very far to see all the Cameron thinks she is an | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
doing. I don't see it as a big issue. I think Hinkley Point is one | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
of the most expensive and extreme the controversial projects. I think | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
any incoming Prime Minister would want to have a very careful look at | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
it. The Rona Fairhead thing, I don't know what the issues are there, but | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
she's totally entitled to do this. It is a new administration. But it | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
is an administration that is quite clearly going to build on what is on | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
gunnery and others would like to see and I think it will go further than | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
David was able to go. So let's take it one further, you think she is in | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
the right direction? If these things get under, even though you were a | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
firm supporter of Cameron's, you wouldn't get quite upset? I'm not | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
upset, but politics is a harsh, rough and quite bloody business. | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
Theresa May is the Prime Minister and she takes a certain view and she | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
is entitled to take her Administration in the way she sees | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
fit. But she is building on the Cameron inheritance. What does the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
Tory party do? Does the Tory party say yes, we're all for academies, | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
yes we are all for grammar schools... Whether you're for | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
grammar schools, it is not to say that you're not for academies. I'm | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
absolutely pro-anything that is going to enhance the life chances of | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
a lot of people who really are not getting a fair crack of the whip. If | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
you choose to put a grammar school in a post-industrial town where | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
there are no good schools, I think that is a wonderful thing to do. A | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
wonderful thing to do. So I think she's going to press on. And I think | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
she has the space and the opportunity, in a way... And you | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
think she will succeed with Brexit? Well, I think Brexit is a very | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
difficult, complex matter which you're going to discuss with the | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
former Prime Minister of Finland. It's either going to go smoothly for | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
us, which I don't think it will, or it will be a very bitter and | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
protracted affair. And I'm afraid it will be a very bitter and protracted | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
affair and could last a long time. I'm sure the Prime Minister is very | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
aware but the world is not going to wait for Britain to make its mind | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
up. We need to get on with this. Sir Nicholas Soames, thank you very | :11:32. | :11:32. | |
much. Joining me now, the Times Columnist | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
Tim Montgomerie, and Polly Toynbee, Nice to have you both here. You | :11:35. | :11:43. | |
heard from Sir Nicholas a sense that it is business as usual and this is | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
just what you do. Tim, are you hearing a proper, new territory with | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
Theresa May now? A differentiation strategy? Look, on the 23rd of June | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
I think Britain just didn't -- didn't just vote for Brexit, there | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
were a huge of this affected poorer Britons, who in their vote were | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
crying out for change. With Theresa May at the new Prime Minister, seeds | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
-- if she didn't acknowledge that as well as wanting to leave the | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
European Union there was a call for a different time politics, she would | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
be failing... David Cameron won the general election on his policies a | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
year ago. He won with 36% of the vote against a pretty weak Labour | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
leader in Ed Miliband. What Brexit, the referendum, a bigger referendum | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
of what people thought of Britain. I think if David Cameron had been in | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
the position that Theresa May was in now, he would be recalibrating | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
policy as well. What is remarkable is that there is much more | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
continuity between Theresa May and David Cameron and we are inevitably | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
focusing on the differences. I agree with Tim, there you go! I think what | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
we're going to see is Nermark double amount of continuity. What she's | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
done is get rid of his chums and people she doesn't like and brought | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
in her own chums, the way that prime ministers do. What really matters in | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
the end is what she does about the economy. We have been through a | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
government where George Osborne and Cameron were committed to reducing | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
the size of the state in Britain to about the same size as the American | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
state, down to 35%. They said they would get it down today, not an | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
emergency measure, but that was how it was going to stay. As a result, | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
public services have been absolutely cut-throat across-the-board, in | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
those Schalke, the NHS and is a lot of fields. -- cut right across the | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
board in the NHS and those areas. Is she a greater evil or a lesser evil? | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
You were no fan of Cameron. I think they're very much on the same track. | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
They are considerably to the right. Cameron and Osborne had a much more | :13:52. | :14:06. | |
relaxed the near. They were much harder than Mrs Thatcher. Their cuts | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
have been much more profound than anything that Margaret Thatcher | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
thought she could begin to do. I think that will continue. That's | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
nonsense. It's too early to judge where Theresa May is going to go on | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
economic policy. One of the most interesting interventions we have | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
had since Brexit was from the Thatcherite minister Sajid Javid, | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
who said we should be boring 20 billion extra a year to put into | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
infrastructure and housing, to make the northern powerhouse real, a | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
central project of George Osborne. That hasn't gone. What has happened, | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
which is where Emily is guilty of a bit of exaggeration, all that has | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
happened was that Theresa May has said that the northern powerhouse | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
was too focused on Manchester. But she has taken these phrases that we | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
have been fed on for the last few years... The first thing she said | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
was, austerity will be looked at again. The northern powerhouse is | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
not about the North, it is about all the country. That is | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
differentiation. It isn't. If the government of Britain didn't respond | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
to one of the most historic vote in our nation's history and recalibrate | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
policy, it would be wrong. So does that mean that all the people who | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
voted for David Cameron, voted him into power in 2015, didn't like his | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
policies? I don't think so. Who knows? It's always a choice. People | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
go for what they think is the most competent person. The idea there is | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
going to be a great shift... We had a very good speech from her on the | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
threshold of number ten talking about the poor, talking about | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
opportunity. Mac but we have been there before. It is exactly what | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
David Cameron did in the run-up to taking power. The problem is that | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
she hasn't even tested. She's arrived without any kind of election | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
or selection. She hasn't been grilled by the likes of you, so that | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
when she comes up with a policy like grammar schools, she hasn't had the | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
chance to test it out. I think she's making mistake after mistake. The | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
grammar schools one is going to be a big embarrassment, because there are | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
a lot of Conservatives who know that most people get the School of their | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
choice. After grammar schools, 80% will not. What came on Monday was | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
timed to perfection. That wasn't just accident. Who knows? David | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
Cameron is going through emotional turmoil, I imagine. He won a general | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
election a year ago. He has been humbled. He is a sensible enough | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
politician to know that his successor needs to have her own | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
agenda. I think what we are seeing is a review of policy that is | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
necessary, but on some of the key fundamentals, getting our deficit | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
under control, passing tax cuts to the low paid, ensuring the education | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
system serves the disadvantaged, she is more of a camera and politician | :17:28. | :17:36. | |
than a Thatcherite one. -- a Cameron politician. This is the one thing | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
that I worry about with Theresa May. The defining Wallasey she was | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
associated with was control of immigration, but when she had the | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
opportunity to deliver the means of controlling immigration by leaving | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
the EU, she hesitated. She has every reason to feel resentment against | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
David Cameron. The legacy he's left her is appalling. The Brexit | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
conundrum is dreadful and will overwhelm her government. At the | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
same time as the state of the NHS, and a number of other problems on | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
her plate. He really has left her with some pretty bad stuff, and I | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
wouldn't be surprised if she was grinding her teeth. Nick Watt has | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
slipped back into the hot seat. What will happen with this? Laura | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Kuenssberg, political editor of the BBC, is reporting that a source is | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
saying that both the Chinese and US governments will approve the | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
Hinckley power deal, which should be improved tomorrow. Sources close to | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
the deal are saying that the Chinese are unlikely to accept conditions | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
unless they get a guarantee over their hope that they will have the | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
right to be the sole builder of that second nuclear power plant at | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
Bradwell. Theresa May called a halt to the Hinkley C points decision, | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
which was one of the first things she did as Prime Minister. If she | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
had stopped it, that would have left you a crisis with Britain's | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
relations with China. But she couldn't just leave it how it was. | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
So she is accept in it with some conditions. Talking about | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
continuity, you mentioned the men was coming out with Lord Finkelstein | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
on David Cameron. What will that bring? Lord Finkelstein is a | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
familiar and friendly face in the Newsnight Village, and will be | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
helping David Cameron with his memoirs. David Cameron takes pride | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
in his first from Oxford, so why would he need help with the writing? | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
I think he realises it will be a mammoth task, so why not have one of | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
the UK's finest political writers helping out? David Cameron has | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
clearly been thinking about these memoirs for some time. He hasn't | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
done a Tony Benn notepad under the table in the Cabinet room, but | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
clearly he has been doing some work on these memoirs. Thank you. | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
When the 27 EU countries gather for their first post-Brexit vote | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
summit this weekend, it will be tempting | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
Indeed, it's what the European Commission President | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
Jean Claude Juncker struck a slightly elegiaic note today, | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
as he acknowledged in his State of the Union Address that Brexit | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
was a blow for the Union, and pressed for more integration | :20:33. | :20:34. | |
TRANSLATION: The European Union is currently not in top condition. | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
The number of areas where we come together, spontaneously | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
The number of areas where we collaborate in | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
Too often, interests that are exclusively | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
But how much solidarity actually exists within the bloc? | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
Divisions are opening up between those who want Britain to be | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
treated harshly and those prepared to give a bit of leeway. | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
The same divisions perhaps reveal where our European neighbours | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
themselves stand on that critical issue of freedom of movement. | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
When thinking about what the rest of the EU wants from us, | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
We will be dealing with 27 states, each with different priorities. | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
So what can we say about what they will want? | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
Well, first, we know Ireland is going to be very important. | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
It's an EU member so exposed to us that it's desperate | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
Lots of our other close trading partners, like Germany, | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
are also likely to want to minimise the disruption of Brexit. | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
Donald Tusk, the European Council President, is also a pragmatist. | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
But Francois Hollande of France is in another camp. | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
We have neighbours who'd quite like to give us a kicking | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
But there are other blocs with their own Brexit agendas. | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
The Baltics and Finland, understandably, see security | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
We are one of Europe's big military powers, | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
and hardline on Moscow, so defence co-operation might become | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
We might also become a pawn in internal EU arguments. | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
For example, the southern states, often slightly misleadingly called | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
the "Club Med" countries, are lobbying for a change | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
Next month, Matteo Renzi in Italy faces a constitutional referendum. | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
Lithuania is going to hold a general election. | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
Then, later this year, Romania will hold one too. | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
Francois Hollande looks likely to lose a forthcoming French | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
Angela Merkel faces a general election by next autumn. | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
So it's a negotiation with 27 countries, some of whom have local | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
fixations, some of whom may change leaders midway, | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
and may in fact win power on pledges about Brexit. | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
what shape any European deal will take. | :23:15. | :23:27. | |
Joining me here in the studio is Alexander Stubb, the former | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
And in Strasbourg, where Mr Juncker made his speech today, | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
is the Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan. | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
Thank you both very much indeed for being with us. It is interesting. | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
Juncker has insisted this is not going to be a summit about Brexit. | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
Are they really not going to talk about it? | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
Of course they will. Usually when you say you are not talking about | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
something, it is what you are going to talk about. Then there will be a | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
process for the future of Europe, because I think Brexit is a tough | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
lesson to learn for all European leaders, and they are trying to suss | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
out what happened. How long do you think Brexit will take? It will be a | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
long process. Five to ten years. The unravelling of the British Empire | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
took a long time. To try to take yourself out of these you when you | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
are talking of over 100,000 pages of secondary legislation, it does not | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
happen fast. I am in London for a week to try to figure out if Brexit | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
means Brexit, what does Brexit mean? I do think anybody knows. Five to | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
ten years is not something that happens briefly after Christmas. It | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
is a process after an event. When we get back Southern tree, that is when | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
we begin to diversion. When we leave, all of our regulations are | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
still in place. Then we can choose which ones we want to keep and which | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
ones we don't. What we want is the tightest relationship with our | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
European friends in terms of security cooperation, military | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
alliance, open markets, compatible with being a fully sovereign country | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
who makes its own laws, like Canada and the US. But you would not | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
disagree with that time frame? Brexit as a legal fact will come | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
into effect when British laws are against supreme in our own | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
territory. There is a timescale there. I think everybody accepts, as | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
Geva hushed output yesterday, we could not have another election. | :25:44. | :25:51. | |
Brexit will come into effect by 2019, at the latest. We still have | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
quite a lot of assimilated EU acts, and that is when we will decide | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
which ones to keep. We can do that with the consent and the approval of | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
our European friends. We want to avoid acting unilaterally or | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
precipitously. That is exactly the word. There are many within that | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
block watching to see what happens with freedom of movement who don't | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
really want it any more themselves. That is one of the difficult issues. | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
One of the big endgames is going to be the internal market. Second, | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
linked to that, the freedom of movement. And third, how much that | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
will cost. Does freedom of movement have to break? It is one of the | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
fundamental freedoms of the EU. The UK was one of the only countries to | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
go for free -- true freedom of movement in 2004. A lot of others | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
went for a transitional period. It is a Catch-22 situation for other EU | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
leaders. Ritz did their part, then suffered through Brexit. If freedom | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
of movement will not disappear, we have to acknowledge that we will not | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
be part of the single market, and that all the ministers coming up | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
with various interpretations are at odds with each other, let alone the | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
rest of the EU. That was to you, Dan. I'm sorry, I cannot see the | :27:21. | :27:29. | |
studio! We are going to have access to the single market. Virtually the | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
whole world has access to the single market. If you look at the back of a | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
smartphone, it says, designed in California, made in China. Neither | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
of those states have any agreement with the EU. Whether we can trade is | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
not the issue, it is whether we are subject to the same regime. There | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
may be some specific businesses and sectors where it suits them to be | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
part of the same regime, but for the vast majority, it may be better to | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
not apply those rules to our domestic commerce and industry. Is | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
it not a problem that, listening to conversations between David Davis | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
and Theresa May, you see that no one really understands the contours of | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
what Brexit is. Different comments about the single market over ten | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
each other, and junior ministers don't seem to have a clue. It is | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
pretty clear that we will be outside the common external tariff. The | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
advantage of Brexit is we will be able to have free trade agreements | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
with China and India and others. It is in our interests for the EU to be | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
prosperous. Alexander Stubb, do you want Europe to give us concessions? | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
Is it in their interest to do this nicely? I think Brexit is a blues - | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
lose proposition, unfortunately. I think it is in the interests of all | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
of us to make this divorce as amicable as possible. We are going | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
to have similar rules and regulations. This is the future. | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Look at technological advancement. My kids are going to be printing | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
their sneakers on 3-D printers. There will not be trade rules in | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
between. There is going to be a very long, cumbersome and difficult | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
process for the EU, which we will talk about for the next ten years. | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
Thank you very much indeed. A paediatric pathologist | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
in Northern Ireland has resigned over interventions | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
by Northern Ireland's Attorney General on abortion laws surrounding | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
fatal foetal abnormality. Dr Caroline Gannon investigated | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
the deaths of babies, including She said the final straw was having | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
to advise a couple to use a picnic cooler bag to return their baby's | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
remains to Northern Ireland following an abortion | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
they were made to have in England. The 1967 Abortion Act, | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
which established legal abortion, has never applied in Northern | :30:05. | :30:06. | |
Ireland. Abortion is only allowed | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
in Northern Ireland in cases Fatal foetal abnormalities, | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
rape and incest are not circumstances in which abortions can | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
be performed legally. Last year, a High court judge ruled | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
the ban on terminations in instances of sexual crime or fatal foetal | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
abnormalities were incompatable But Attorney General John Larkin | :30:26. | :30:27. | |
appealed against that ruling. Dr Gannon said her position had | :30:28. | :30:36. | |
been made untenable, and that the interventions by Mr | :30:37. | :30:38. | |
Larkin had proved a tipping point. Joining us now from Belfast | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
is Caroline Gannon, former paedatric pathologist who | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
has just resigned from her job. We appreciate you joining us. Can | :30:48. | :30:56. | |
you try and explain a little better than I did the emotional trigger | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
which really lead to you feeling you had to step down? I think you | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
explained it very well. It has become increasingly difficult over | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
the last 18 months. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
the stillbirth ruling, that we have a situation here where stillbirth | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
can be reported to the coroner and an autopsy carried out by Kara | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
O'Neill legislation without any input from the parents. -- coronial | :31:23. | :31:34. | |
the deflation. They have no say when they get their baby's body back, for | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
example. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also the | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
stillbirth ruling. Over the last 18 months I have found that I have | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
become increasingly, mice by these rulings, which has had a big impact | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
on the work I do for families. Just explain to us the couple who were | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
not allowed to have their dangerously ill foetus terminated in | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
Ireland, what happened there? They had received a diagnosis of fatal | :32:05. | :32:12. | |
faecal abnormalities and they wanted a termination of pregnancy and they | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
had to go to England for that. This was very much a wanted baby, a | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
planned baby, and they were very distressed that this would go ahead. | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
This was part of their family, this was their baby and they didn't want | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
to leave him in Northern Ireland. It was only through the sheer luck that | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
they were speaking to a very experienced midwife who knew me | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
personally and she put them in touch with me so I could give them | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
information about how best to bring the body home and how to preserve | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
the tissue though that we could get all the information they would need. | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
I'm sure there are other families out there who did not access that | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
information and had to leave their baby behind in England. Just give us | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
a sense, do you feel, and you weren't worried closely with this, | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
that abortion laws have become more rigorous in Northern Ireland in | :33:10. | :33:10. | |
recent years? Very much so. I started working in | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
Northern Ireland as a consultant in 2003 and bank then we did get some | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
babies coming into our department where the families had had an | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
induction of labour because of a lethal abnormality. That seemed to | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
stop completely in about 2008. So we do seem to be becoming more strict | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
over the rules here and I do feel it is interfering with family life | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
quite significantly. I think parents should have the right to make a | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
decision about their babies and they have been denied that, both in | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
stillbirths and in babies where they opt to end the pregnancy early. | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
There was this ruling by a High Court judge in Belfast that some of | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
the parts of the law contravenes international human rights. Why | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
didn't that go through? There is no will install mod for that to go | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
through. There seems to be very little public debate about the | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
impact this is having on families at an individual family level. The | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
impression I'm getting from the media is that this is being | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
portrayed as an all or nothing situation, that either no | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
terminations can be carried out or if we say yes to terminations for | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
lethal abnormalities, that opens the door to every other type of | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
termination of pregnancy. We're talking about termination of | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
pregnancy in a very specific circumstance, where the baby has an | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
abnormality that is not compatible with life, and it's only a very | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
small number of cases each year. It's just that one particular | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
scenario that we are looking at. This is not going to become abortion | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
on demand but that is the way it's being presented in the media and | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
that is the way that our MPs in Stormont are behaving. When you | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
explained to a couple what they would have to do, because they were | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
not allowed to have their baby terminated with you in Northern | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
Ireland, what was their response to that? I don't want to get into too | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
many details, because obviously the family deserve confidentiality. But | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
the father seemed to deal with this by taking a step back and being | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
quite detached about the whole thing. I'm sure he wasn't coming he | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
was very distressed and upset. I have to say, the conversation, I | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
deal with this everyday, I deal with postmortem's everyday, but that was | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
quite simply the most upsetting conversation I'd had in 16 years as | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
a consultant. To talk to a father about what size of picnic cooler we | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
would need to estimate the size that his baby might be, to determine the | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
size of the cooler and to explain about keeping the tissues at four | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
degrees Celsius so we could preserve them the best we could for genetic | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
testing when the baby got back to us in Northern Ireland, it really was | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
quite appalling and quite surreal to have to discuss that. I just found | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
it extremely difficult. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks for joining | :36:15. | :36:15. | |
us this evening. Thank you. The Attorney General's office | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
told the BBC today that the law on abortion is currently under | :36:20. | :36:21. | |
consideration by Court of Appeal. We're going to take you back to that | :36:22. | :36:32. | |
news that has broken whilst we have been on air, we understand there has | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
been a decision on Hinckley. At the moment there is only one source | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
giving as this but the Times has got that the French claim the nuclear | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
plant has been approved at Hinkley Point. Just take us through, Nick, | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
for those who missed it earlier, what state of the deal we think we | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
are at with Hinkley Point now? The Times are citing a report by | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
Bloomberg News saying that EDF, the French energy giant meant to be | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
partnering on this, they have been informed that this deal is going | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
ahead, but crucially there will be conditions, and the big question is | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
that it looks like the conditions may be attached to the Bradwell | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
plant, the second plant in Essex, which China is hoping to build on | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
its very own. As we've been reporting in recent weeks, some of | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
Theresa May's chief aides have voiced concerns about Chinese | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
security and whether they should have sole control over the building | :37:38. | :37:47. | |
of a nuclear power plant. We should say the government is denying any | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
deal has been made, but they would, wouldn't they, at this point? Tim, | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
what would you make of it or understand by this? You always | :37:58. | :37:59. | |
expected Hinkley Point to go through? No, one of the interesting | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
things in the Times report is that the government are insisting that | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
the EDF, the French board of the EDF have two re approved the can deal | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
under new conditions. It was quite a narrowly balanced judgment last time | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
and it could be that with the new conditions the French opt out and | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
therefore it won't be Britons saying to China pulling out of this deal, | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
they're trying to get France to pull out. I'm personally disappointed if | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
it does go ahead. Hinkley Point is a commitment for the British energy | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
payer, the average householder, to really be paying above the odds for | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
energy costs for decades ahead. It could saddle British industry with | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
higher energy costs for a long time. But presumably without it that would | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
have meant we're not going to invest in nuclear power? On this scale. | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
There are other nuclear models. This is the bet I think we're taking if | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
we approve Hinkley Point. We're betting that technology that exist | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
now we will still be committed to 43040 years, when actually there is | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
an awful lot of evidence that solar energy for example, more portable, | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
smaller, nuclear energy is, might actually be much cheaper in ten or | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
20 years' time, so we will be saddled with this providing 7% of | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
British energy, when actually our economic competitors could be using | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
new technologies that allow their industry and consumers to be paying | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
much cheaper bills. If this is the decision, I think it's quite | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
regrettable. We will take you quickly through the papers, which I | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
am looking for the first time too. The Times has this inquiry into | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
police over the 1980s clash with miners. The Telegraph has got | :39:48. | :39:56. | |
"Doubts over prostate treatment". Thousands of men told they could | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
avoid surgery affects the Guardian leading with the BBC forced to | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
reveal salaries of star names. That's it for tonight but we leave | :40:06. | :40:06. | |
you with this. French football | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
legend Michel Platini, who said farewell today as President | :40:14. | :40:14. | |
of the European sport's governing body, Uefa, to warm applause | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
from their congress. It didn't seem to matter that he's | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
been barred from football-related activities for four years, | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
following that unfortunate business with Sepp Blatter | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
and 2 million swiss francs. Hello there. The weather is going to | :40:24. | :41:16. | |
get back to normal as we end the week, but one more very warm day to | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
come for some of us, particularly seeing sunshine from the word go | :41:21. | :41:22. | |
across southern | :41:23. | :41:23. |