15/09/2016 Newsnight


15/09/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis with James O'Brien. A look at the recently signed Hinkley nuclear deal and the winner of the Mercury music prize.


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The deal that seals Britain's nuclear future, finally signed.

:00:00.:00:09.

After delaying a decision on Hinkley Point, Theresa May has

:00:10.:00:11.

I've been in Whitehall finding out who the real winners and losers

:00:12.:00:19.

And, we'll be talking to the man who drew up the plans

:00:20.:00:23.

The view of my committee is that it'll be an act close to insanity

:00:24.:00:28.

on every grounds to do a blanket suspension of British arms

:00:29.:00:31.

Crispin Blunt tells us that if the courts rule that arms sales

:00:32.:00:40.

to Saudi are illegal, then the law needs to be changed.

:00:41.:00:43.

I have to say, it's great to be back on the campaign trail.

:00:44.:00:47.

She's out of her sick bed, but can Hillary Clinton recapture

:00:48.:00:50.

the ground she's lost to Donald Trump?

:00:51.:00:53.

We'll have the first TV interview with the Grime star who beat Bowie

:00:54.:01:11.

Theresa May today pressed the nuclear button and gave

:01:12.:01:27.

the go-ahead to the controversial Hinkley Point power plant.

:01:28.:01:29.

Mischief-makers have pointed out that the ?18 billion deal means

:01:30.:01:31.

that her Government, like her predecessor's,

:01:32.:01:34.

is quite comfortable with the state ownership of utilities -

:01:35.:01:37.

as long as the states are foreign - in this case, France and China.

:01:38.:01:40.

More trenchant criticism has been directed at the project's escalating

:01:41.:01:42.

costs and the security implications of allowing nuclear power plants

:01:43.:01:45.

to be built in the UK by foreign governments.

:01:46.:01:50.

Indeed, it was these concerns that prompted the Prime Minister

:01:51.:01:52.

to delay her decision and revisit the terms of the deal

:01:53.:01:55.

Newsnight's political editor, Nick Watt, is here.

:01:56.:02:02.

Nick, what are the key differences between the new deal

:02:03.:02:04.

Two levels, nothing has changed. The strike price for this deal. The

:02:05.:02:12.

amount we pay for electricity generated by this plant, that stays

:02:13.:02:17.

the same. In the second place, this marks the beginning of Chinese

:02:18.:02:21.

involve am in our civil nuclear infrastructure and they could still

:02:22.:02:25.

be on course to have a complete say over the building of the third plant

:02:26.:02:30.

in this project, Bradwell in Essex. Downing Street is saying that the

:02:31.:02:35.

Theresa May pause has led to two tangible changes. They are, in the

:02:36.:02:40.

first place, after the Hinkley plant has been built, the UK Government

:02:41.:02:45.

will take what is called a "special share" in all future civil nuclear

:02:46.:02:49.

plants. You will hear in a minute from Sir Ed Davey the former Lib Dem

:02:50.:02:53.

Energy and Climate Change Secretary. He tried to push for something along

:02:54.:02:57.

those lines, George Osborne said no, didn't want to offend the Chinese.

:02:58.:03:01.

The second difference Downing Street points to is a rigorous assessment

:03:02.:03:08.

of what is called "the ownership of critical it infrastructure" that

:03:09.:03:10.

Bradwell plant in the future. That will be a victory for the Prime

:03:11.:03:18.

Minister's joint Chief of Staff Nick Timothy who raised the issue of

:03:19.:03:23.

security of Chinese involve am. Friends of George Osborne are saying

:03:24.:03:27.

absolutely nothing has changed. It's interesting. I have been hearing

:03:28.:03:31.

from senior Whitehall officials they say it's a bit of a set back for

:03:32.:03:36.

Nick Timothy. They say it's difficult how you can reconcile this

:03:37.:03:39.

deal, even as amended with an article that he wrote for the

:03:40.:03:43.

ConservativeHome website last year on the eve of that state visit by Xi

:03:44.:03:51.

Jinping. He wrote, "security experts reportedly inside as well as outside

:03:52.:03:55.

Government are worried that the Chinese could use their role to

:03:56.:03:59.

build weaknesses into computer systems which will allow them to

:04:00.:04:04.

shutdown Britain's energy production at will." There is another feeling

:04:05.:04:07.

in Whitehall. There is a little feeling of guilt that perhaps it was

:04:08.:04:11.

a bit unfair of them to expect Theresa May to become Prime Minister

:04:12.:04:17.

and almost immediately sign up to such a massive project and they are

:04:18.:04:22.

saying, fair enough, that she had to have a pause and have some ownership

:04:23.:04:25.

of it. Many thanks, indeed. Of course, it's not all

:04:26.:04:30.

about politics and security. Many of us will be at least

:04:31.:04:33.

as interested in what it all means Newsnight's Adam Parsons has been

:04:34.:04:36.

looking at the numbers. Here's Hinkley Point a bird spotting

:04:37.:04:44.

haven in Somerset that is the focus of our nation's energy policy. Two

:04:45.:04:49.

nuclear power stations have already been built here, Hinkley Point A,

:04:50.:04:54.

shut in 1999, while B is still up and running. Next door comes the

:04:55.:05:00.

expensive, if unimaginatively named, Hinkley Point C. It's actually going

:05:01.:05:07.

to be two reactors put together costing ?18 billion of French and

:05:08.:05:10.

Chinese money. The biggest contribution of all might yet come

:05:11.:05:14.

from us. The UK's electricity consumers. Here's why. When

:05:15.:05:20.

electricity is sold by power stations they use a measure called a

:05:21.:05:26.

megawatt hour. The electricity you needed to power 3,300 homes for a

:05:27.:05:31.

single hour. Hinkley is guaranteed to be paid ?92. ?92.auto 50 for each

:05:32.:05:38.

megawatt hour it generates. That assured earning figure is called -

:05:39.:05:43.

the strike price. Created after length bey negotiation between EDF

:05:44.:05:46.

and the Government. It's crucial. It's what EDF wanted to provide the

:05:47.:05:49.

certainty that its investment really was worthwhile. It's also how we can

:05:50.:05:55.

analyse just what sort of value we're getting here. What's important

:05:56.:06:00.

to remember is the strike price was created in 2012. It goes up with

:06:01.:06:04.

inflation. So if I could click my fingers and have Hinkley open right

:06:05.:06:09.

now, the price of a megawatt hour would already have gone up to more

:06:10.:06:13.

than ?95. It will keep going up in line with inflation for 35 years

:06:14.:06:17.

after the station opens for business. Let us imagine that

:06:18.:06:24.

Hinkley Point C does open, on time, in 2025, when inflation might have

:06:25.:06:30.

seen the price hit ?110. In 2060 we will be paying ?95 along with

:06:31.:06:34.

four-and-a-half decades worth of inflation. So what does this deal

:06:35.:06:39.

really mean? I'm not going to predict the state of the energy

:06:40.:06:42.

market in 44 years' time. You can see that over the past six years the

:06:43.:06:47.

price of electricity has never got near the Hinkley Point point. It's

:06:48.:06:52.

presently less than half the now famous strike price. What happens

:06:53.:06:56.

when the price of electricity is a lot lower than the money we've all

:06:57.:07:00.

promised EDF? That is where we come in, consumers. We are going to have

:07:01.:07:05.

to pay more to cover that gap. How much? Well, when Hinkley was planned

:07:06.:07:10.

it was reckoned to be a subsidy of ?6 billion. About ?10 per household

:07:11.:07:16.

per year. That figure has mushroomed. The National Audit

:07:17.:07:20.

Office thinks UK businesses and households will have to find ?30

:07:21.:07:25.

billion to plug the gap. One-and-a-half times of cost of

:07:26.:07:28.

building Hinkley in the first place. Why do it? One simple reason is that

:07:29.:07:33.

we need new power stations. Coal ones are being phased out. Others

:07:34.:07:37.

are simply getting old. What are the benefits? 60% of the money that is

:07:38.:07:40.

being spent on construction is expected to go to British companies.

:07:41.:07:46.

Future cash object tariffs imposed on coal and gas power stations might

:07:47.:07:51.

put prices up dramatically. It might be that Hinkley one day looks rather

:07:52.:07:54.

good value-for-money. Here with me now is Sir Ed Davey

:07:55.:07:57.

who negotiated the Hinkley deal in the first place

:07:58.:08:00.

when he was Climate Change Secretary It looks as if the French sent you a

:08:01.:08:09.

wish list and you and George Osborne granted them all? Not at all. The

:08:10.:08:12.

French didn't get what they wanted at all. They wanted a much higher

:08:13.:08:16.

price. George Osborne was prepared to sign a deal at a higher price. I

:08:17.:08:24.

said, absolutely no way. We had to get if Sizewell C goes ahead it will

:08:25.:08:29.

be sub 90. I think because we will need a lot of electricity when our

:08:30.:08:37.

coal power stations shut. We will need a lot of low-carbon electricity

:08:38.:08:41.

because of climate change this has to be part of the answer. Along with

:08:42.:08:46.

all the renewables. I'm proud that with the Liberal Democrats in the

:08:47.:08:50.

last Coalition Government we had a massive expansion of wind and solar

:08:51.:08:56.

a and I put on the agenda tidal lagoons as well. Moving into

:08:57.:09:01.

reverse? I think the Conservatives are making a hugeror. Error. They

:09:02.:09:10.

are putting the nations eggs in the nuclear and gas basket. They have

:09:11.:09:16.

undermined investment energy efficiency and closed down carbon

:09:17.:09:20.

capture storage. They are betting the nation on gas and nuclear. That

:09:21.:09:26.

is irresponsible. Yet, of course, Germany is pressing forward into an

:09:27.:09:30.

energy future completely devoid of nuclear. I appreciate you don't hold

:09:31.:09:34.

a brief for the German company. How come they can do it and we can't?

:09:35.:09:37.

They are burning a lot more coal because they have made a huge mess.

:09:38.:09:41.

Most energy analysts would think the German model is not one to follow.

:09:42.:09:45.

They've investeded in renewables, which is good, they have paid a much

:09:46.:09:50.

higher price for their renewables than they we have. By taking a

:09:51.:09:58.

low-carbon climate friendly nuclear out they are burning dirty coal.

:09:59.:10:01.

That is not a good result for the environment. Speaking of paying a

:10:02.:10:06.

higher price than perhaps consumer or indeed a country has to. Take a

:10:07.:10:10.

look at this graph we have prepared for ease of understanding. That's

:10:11.:10:14.

sort of, as you can see, clearly where the price per unit stands now.

:10:15.:10:19.

That is the price per unit that we will be getting out of Hinkley.

:10:20.:10:23.

Well, you don't need me to tell you there is a fairly big imbalance

:10:24.:10:27.

between the two? The current electricity is provided by gas and

:10:28.:10:32.

coal. They don't pay their pollution costs. They don't pay a carbon

:10:33.:10:36.

price. If you added the carbon price on to that you would see them level

:10:37.:10:40.

up. What I negotiated in the Hinkley price, which is not well-known, but

:10:41.:10:45.

it's very important, is that the costs of nuclear decommissioning,

:10:46.:10:48.

the costs of dealing with the pollution of nuclear, if you like,

:10:49.:10:51.

the nuclear west management costs, they are in the price. You are

:10:52.:10:57.

comparing apples with pears there. Electricity with electricity albeit

:10:58.:10:59.

although different types. Let me explain. You haven't got the point.

:11:00.:11:04.

That includes electricity plus the waste management costs the pollution

:11:05.:11:08.

costs. That doesn't. You have apples and pears. No, it's right. The price

:11:09.:11:12.

to the consumer. It doesn't deal with the cost of dealing with

:11:13.:11:17.

climate change. It's the cheque we write or the direct debit we sign to

:11:18.:11:22.

our electricity people. You are misleading people. You have to deal

:11:23.:11:25.

with price, you have to deal with keeping the lights on. Which clearly

:11:26.:11:29.

Hinkley does. You also have to deal with cleaning up our energy. We have

:11:30.:11:33.

to tackle climate change. So when you look at energy policy you have

:11:34.:11:37.

to do all three. You are looking at one there. That is why you are

:11:38.:11:42.

misleading people. We are not misleading people we are telling

:11:43.:11:45.

them what they will be paying for their electricity than what they are

:11:46.:11:50.

down-the-line. I fully understand the point you are making. The

:11:51.:11:55.

question is why the National Audit Office estimates ?30 billion worth

:11:56.:12:01.

of, they use the word "subsidy" to could be a sweetener coming from the

:12:02.:12:07.

consumer to EDF effectively to the French state, to the French

:12:08.:12:11.

government, 85% owned by the French? One of the reasons why EDF took such

:12:12.:12:15.

a long time to director this and the director of finance resigned from

:12:16.:12:19.

the board, I don't think everyone in France think it is's a good deal for

:12:20.:12:23.

the French. Why might that be? Again in the price I ensured that the UK

:12:24.:12:29.

consumer pays nothing, nothing, unless and until the power station

:12:30.:12:34.

generates. It's supposed to be 2025, it could be later. How much later? I

:12:35.:12:38.

don't know. Of course I don't know yet. Roughly an idea of when it will

:12:39.:12:42.

be up and running? I don't know. You signed the deal? Listen you don't

:12:43.:12:46.

know about nuclear plants. The reason why I'm telling you this

:12:47.:12:49.

important point. If it's overrun, we don't bear the cost. The French bear

:12:50.:12:55.

the cost. If there are overruns, delays the UK consumer is completely

:12:56.:12:59.

protected. That has never happened in a nuclear deal before. There is a

:13:00.:13:04.

possibility that this thing never gets built, right. In what

:13:05.:13:07.

circumstances would that happen? At the moment, this worried me when I

:13:08.:13:13.

was Secretary of State. The EPR hasn't been built in Finland or

:13:14.:13:19.

Paris or hasn't been built in China. I was worried if it doesn't get

:13:20.:13:25.

built we might be laboured and burden with the cost. The deal makes

:13:26.:13:29.

sure the French will have to take up the cost if they don't build it.

:13:30.:13:33.

Unglittering track record, why would you sign up to be the latest

:13:34.:13:36.

customer? We are not bearing the risk. The thing that we had - There

:13:37.:13:41.

is a risk our capacity won't increase if the plant isn't built. I

:13:42.:13:45.

appreciate that might not incur financial costs you have described a

:13:46.:13:49.

system - I was coming back to that. You don't know the question. The

:13:50.:13:54.

ones you cited are behind schedule or might not happen.

:13:55.:13:58.

You went to a shop that failed to satisfy a single customer and

:13:59.:14:02.

handled them the largest of all deals. The largest man made

:14:03.:14:06.

structure on the planet some estimate. I was going to answer a

:14:07.:14:11.

question. You are right if it doesn't make sure if it isn't built

:14:12.:14:15.

the costs are born by the French not the British. Which we have done. We

:14:16.:14:20.

had to make sure we had enough alternative power if it doesn't get

:14:21.:14:26.

built. Hold on. I was arguing we need carbon capture storage, on

:14:27.:14:30.

shore wind, solar, tidal lagoon and other options as a mixed diverse

:14:31.:14:34.

approach and why the Tories are making such a drastic mistake

:14:35.:14:37.

because they have cancelled effectively onshore wind. They have

:14:38.:14:41.

cancelled CCS. They are taking all these options off the table. I

:14:42.:14:45.

ensured they were there to protect the country's interests You signed a

:14:46.:14:49.

long-term. Deal for a nuclear plant that we didn't necessarily need and

:14:50.:14:52.

the Tories back-tracking on environmental policy means we really

:14:53.:14:55.

needed it now and we might not get it? We do need it. Is that an

:14:56.:15:01.

accurate analysis? No. I signed a deal for nuclear powerer we don't

:15:02.:15:06.

need. You said we you could cover the capacity with the other things

:15:07.:15:10.

you introduced? If you are dealing with the big issues of how we power

:15:11.:15:15.

our homes and factories you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Do

:15:16.:15:19.

you? Would you be that irresponsible? No, I wasn't. I

:15:20.:15:22.

ensured both to deal with climate change. We had low-carbon sources

:15:23.:15:28.

and lots of options. That is the sensible cautious thing to do to

:15:29.:15:31.

make sure you protect Britain. The Tories are playing fast and loose

:15:32.:15:35.

because they have taken low-carbon renewables off the table and they

:15:36.:15:39.

are putting all their eggs in this basket. While this deal in itself

:15:40.:15:44.

may be a good thing. They are actually, overall energy policy is a

:15:45.:15:50.

disaster. By the time the ramifications are clear nobody

:15:51.:15:54.

responsible for the deal will be in office just like you aren't at the

:15:55.:15:55.

moment. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now is Axelle Lemaire,

:15:56.:15:59.

the French Minister of State for She's in town for to drum up

:16:00.:16:01.

bilateral business, especially We'll get on to that momentarily,

:16:02.:16:05.

but I wonder whether you could give us a quick insight into how

:16:06.:16:09.

the French people - and particularly the unions -

:16:10.:16:12.

feel about ?12 billion of French money being spent on a nuclear

:16:13.:16:14.

power plant in Britain? I've tried to fight the answer to

:16:15.:16:26.

that question. I was in London today and I couldn't find the answer

:16:27.:16:29.

because I have not heard anything from the unions. I think that deal

:16:30.:16:34.

is good news for the people who want work and it also gives a long-term

:16:35.:16:40.

prospect for the bilateral cooperation between the countries

:16:41.:16:43.

and I believe that is exacting what we need at the moment. Even when you

:16:44.:16:48.

have heard our former Secretary of State think France is children all

:16:49.:16:51.

of the risk. What I find interesting, when I come here I hear

:16:52.:16:57.

that it is a bad deal for the French. When I go to France, I hit

:16:58.:17:02.

it is a bad deal for the British so I sent it is a fair deal for all. It

:17:03.:17:08.

is more environmentally friendly and it gives clean energy. In France,

:17:09.:17:15.

energy is cheaper as well so I don't know about your price prospect but

:17:16.:17:18.

what I can say is that it is important to have a diversity of

:17:19.:17:24.

energy sources and we have to get ready for long-term prospects. So

:17:25.:17:30.

everyone is a winner. Shall we move on to what you encountered in

:17:31.:17:33.

London, I presume for the first time post Brexit as a minister for

:17:34.:17:38.

responsible T4 entrepreneurial activity, have you detect a change

:17:39.:17:43.

in tone in entrepreneurs and in the city in particular league? I met

:17:44.:17:49.

different people, individuals are worried but there is this strange

:17:50.:17:55.

feeling of, is there a Brexit or is there not a Brexit? It seems from

:17:56.:18:00.

the outside that life goes on. I thought to myself, what is

:18:01.:18:05.

happening. But when you really ask questions, what business people tell

:18:06.:18:09.

you is that in the longer term, the current uncertainty will block their

:18:10.:18:16.

decisions. For example, should they invest in new equipment? Should they

:18:17.:18:21.

hire new people or not? How easy will it be to employ people coming

:18:22.:18:26.

from abroad? It is very important in the sector to be dependent on

:18:27.:18:32.

skilled people. There are a lot of questions... You can't answer them

:18:33.:18:38.

until Article 50 is triggered. Does the French government have a

:18:39.:18:43.

position on when they want to see it triggered? It is not for us to have

:18:44.:18:46.

a position also the sooner the better. I know where you will take

:18:47.:18:54.

me, that I sound tough, it is not a question of sounding tough, but I

:18:55.:18:59.

read that the French are tough and the Germans are soft but because

:19:00.:19:04.

what is in the interests of Britain of the British people, of France and

:19:05.:19:08.

Europe. I think uncertainty is not good for anyone also if you look at

:19:09.:19:13.

the economic figures of the British economy of this summer, it seems

:19:14.:19:18.

pretty good, you might think low pound, good exports, many tourists,

:19:19.:19:25.

no problem. In the longer term, no investment? Less margins for

:19:26.:19:29.

companies, less capacity to invest. I think the longer we wait, the

:19:30.:19:35.

harder the consequences can be also that is really why we want that

:19:36.:19:41.

article 50 to be triggered. The noises from the Treasury suggest

:19:42.:19:46.

early next year, some critics, Herman Van Rompuy had said not until

:19:47.:19:49.

the German election is out of the way. Ideal scenario? Tomorrow,

:19:50.:19:55.

Christmas, New Year's Eve? I feel you are asking me to answer a

:19:56.:20:01.

question but I don't exacting know what the question is because it is

:20:02.:20:05.

what is the deal in the negotiations. When will be triggered

:20:06.:20:09.

be pulled? That is not for me to answer. What would suit York Leon

:20:10.:20:18.

Taylor best? -- your Klingon tell -- clientele. What I observe that the

:20:19.:20:24.

British government wants and needs time and this can be understood. But

:20:25.:20:31.

it is not good to wait for too long. But my real concern, I feel the real

:20:32.:20:39.

political question has not been addressed between freedom of

:20:40.:20:44.

movement of people, and access to the single market. This real

:20:45.:20:52.

question has not been addressed. As long as the British government will

:20:53.:20:55.

not have the question, we will not be in a position to negotiate. Any

:20:56.:20:56.

thanks. -- many thanks. Now a story we have covered

:20:57.:21:01.

a lot on this programme. Select committee reports

:21:02.:21:03.

on the legality of UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia are looking a lot

:21:04.:21:06.

like buses tonight. You wait ages for one then

:21:07.:21:08.

two come along at once. Confusingly, the first -

:21:09.:21:11.

a joint effort by the Business and International Development Committees

:21:12.:21:15.

- deemed it "inevitable that any violations of international

:21:16.:21:17.

humanitarian and human rights law by the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen

:21:18.:21:21.

have involved arms Some expected this to trigger

:21:22.:21:23.

a demand for all such But the Foreign Affairs Select

:21:24.:21:30.

Committee today published a rival report insisting that the legality

:21:31.:21:36.

of arms sales to Saudi should be The chair of that committee,

:21:37.:21:39.

Crispin Blunt, has been speaking to Newsnight's foreign

:21:40.:21:44.

correspondent, Gabriel Gatehouse, with some frankly remarkable results

:21:45.:21:47.

but before we hear about them, I thought it would be helpful

:21:48.:21:50.

to pick Gabriel's brains about how this strange select committee

:21:51.:21:54.

stalemate came to pass. Some background on this, the Saudi

:21:55.:22:08.

led coalition's action over Yemen started last March after who the

:22:09.:22:11.

rebels, took over half the country will stop the action is backed by

:22:12.:22:17.

the UN Security Council so it is legal under international law. Both

:22:18.:22:19.

sides have been accused of committing your -- war crimes with

:22:20.:22:24.

the UN can add with figures that 60% of civilian casualties have been

:22:25.:22:28.

caused by the air strikes by the Saudi led coalition. This programme

:22:29.:22:32.

and others have reported instances of attacks on civilian

:22:33.:22:35.

infrastructure, factories and schools and the like. Where Britain

:22:36.:22:39.

comes into this is that we note that Britain itself a lot of weapons to

:22:40.:22:43.

Saudi Arabia, a 30 fold increase in our sales of weapons in the first

:22:44.:22:47.

year of that war compared to the same period in the previous year.

:22:48.:22:52.

Earlier this year, four select committees came together to look at

:22:53.:22:56.

the question of if our arms sales to Saudi Arabia are still legal. This

:22:57.:23:02.

was made up of MPs from Ball committees, foreign affairs,

:23:03.:23:05.

defence, international development and business -- four committees.

:23:06.:23:09.

Last week we got a leaked draft report with some strong language

:23:10.:23:13.

which said there was credible evidence of violations of human

:23:14.:23:16.

rights and it called for a suspension of sales. Within got the

:23:17.:23:21.

leaked tabled amendments, many written by Crispin Blunt, which

:23:22.:23:24.

appeared to get rid a lot of that language, crucially the call for the

:23:25.:23:29.

suspension of arms sales. There was to and disagreement amongst MPs and

:23:30.:23:33.

Crispin Blunt led a war cabinet of some saying that the committee could

:23:34.:23:38.

not come to an agreement. What happened was an most unprecedented

:23:39.:23:42.

situation to of these two rival reports, the one from business and

:23:43.:23:46.

international development calling for a suspension. Both of them

:23:47.:23:49.

calling for an international investigation but crucially, Crispin

:23:50.:23:54.

Blunt's did not call for that suspension. We have had a lot of

:23:55.:23:59.

talk about process but I wanted to talk about substance so I went to

:24:00.:24:03.

seek Crispin Blunt in his constituency this afternoon and here

:24:04.:24:04.

is some of our conversation. What's at stake here are two things

:24:05.:24:08.

- the rule of law and what's And under the rule of law,

:24:09.:24:11.

there has been an illegal armed It's very important for people

:24:12.:24:15.

to understand the context... The Saudi intervention is backed

:24:16.:24:24.

by the United Nations so therefore But they are also obliged to abide

:24:25.:24:26.

by international law. They are obliged by international

:24:27.:24:30.

humanitarian law. Your colleagues say there has been

:24:31.:24:34.

very credible evidence of violations The issue is about whether there has

:24:35.:24:39.

been an actual breach of international humanitarian law

:24:40.:24:47.

that would then bring a responsibility on the British

:24:48.:24:49.

government to act I don't believe this part of the law

:24:50.:24:51.

has been tested in this way before. Obviously the proper place for that

:24:52.:24:59.

to happen is the courts and that's what the Foreign Affairs

:25:00.:25:02.

Committee are saying. Your colleagues in the other

:25:03.:25:06.

committee say that, while we wait for the courts to decide that,

:25:07.:25:09.

we should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia in case arms

:25:10.:25:12.

that we sell them are being used That has completely

:25:13.:25:15.

disappeared from your report. It has because the view

:25:16.:25:20.

of my committee is that it would be an act close to insanity on every

:25:21.:25:24.

ground to do a blanket suspension of British arms

:25:25.:25:28.

exports to Saudi Arabia. The kind of bombs we know,

:25:29.:25:30.

the kind of bombs sold by Britain to Saudi Arabia which we

:25:31.:25:38.

know have been dropped And the implications of that, some

:25:39.:25:40.

of those are laser-guided bombs, giving the Saudis the capability

:25:41.:25:45.

through a proper targeting process to actually hit

:25:46.:25:47.

what they are intending to hit. And if we stopped supplying those

:25:48.:25:52.

weapons, they then may have to turn to less guided weapons,

:25:53.:25:57.

the kinds the Russians have been using in Syria for example

:25:58.:25:59.

where the accusation... If we are contravening our own laws

:26:00.:26:02.

by selling weapons to Saudi Arabia that are being used in contravention

:26:03.:26:12.

of international humanitarian law, and the test is very low,

:26:13.:26:14.

if there is a clear risk that these weapons might,

:26:15.:26:17.

might be used in contravention of international humanitarian law,

:26:18.:26:19.

then we must stop doing it. Then we are going to have to see how

:26:20.:26:22.

the judges interpret that. The practical consequences

:26:23.:26:26.

of that are actually It would mean our relationship

:26:27.:26:28.

with the Saudis and the influence we have over them about the joint

:26:29.:26:35.

interests we have is that they are rigorous in making sure

:26:36.:26:39.

there are no breaches That they put their Armed Forces

:26:40.:26:41.

under the same kind We clearly don't have that influence

:26:42.:26:45.

because look at all these The context this has got to be in,

:26:46.:26:49.

and this is exactly why the Foreign Affairs Committee has

:26:50.:26:53.

probably come to a different conclusion to the others,

:26:54.:26:56.

is that this is actually about our wider relationship

:26:57.:26:58.

with Saudi Arabia as well as the more narrow relationship

:26:59.:27:00.

about the Saudis moving to our standards in terms

:27:01.:27:02.

of conducting a military campaign. But our relationship

:27:03.:27:05.

with Saudi Arabia is irrelevant Then surely we have

:27:06.:27:07.

to change the law? Do you think we should

:27:08.:27:12.

change the law? That is in the Foreign Affairs

:27:13.:27:14.

Committee report. If it turned out that the courts

:27:15.:27:18.

decided we were in breach of our law, we would have to,

:27:19.:27:21.

we should then look So we should soften our stance

:27:22.:27:23.

on the criteria under I think some people may look

:27:24.:27:27.

at all of this evidence that has accumulated over 18 months

:27:28.:27:36.

of what has been going on in Yemen and conclude that either

:27:37.:27:40.

you are naive, gullible, They might think that

:27:41.:27:41.

you were naive And the people who come

:27:42.:27:49.

to the other conclusion. Because there is a war

:27:50.:27:54.

going on in the Yemen. This is about international legal

:27:55.:27:59.

authority trying to suppress And the illegal armed rebellion has

:28:00.:28:01.

to be addressed otherwise it is the law of the jungle

:28:02.:28:11.

and the people in the Yemen are then victims of whichever

:28:12.:28:15.

militia, armed group, can impose their will

:28:16.:28:17.

on those people. Time now for our weekly glance

:28:18.:28:19.

across the Atlantic and another valiant attempt to identify the most

:28:20.:28:29.

crucial developments of the last week in America's escalating

:28:30.:28:32.

presidential election. According to the polls,

:28:33.:28:35.

the battle between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump is getting closer

:28:36.:28:39.

by the day while both candidates apparently remain

:28:40.:28:41.

committed to the tactics of attacking their opponent's

:28:42.:28:44.

weaknesses in preference, perhaps, Steve Hilton, CEO of Crowdpac,

:28:45.:28:47.

a political crowd-funding and data site, and David Cameron's former

:28:48.:28:58.

adviser now based in America, joins us from San Francisco,

:28:59.:29:02.

and the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Mary Jordan,

:29:03.:29:05.

who's covering the contest for the Washington Post,

:29:06.:29:06.

is in Washington DC. Thank you both for joining us.

:29:07.:29:37.

Steve, highlights, low lights, somewhere in the middle, what have

:29:38.:29:41.

you chosen for us tonight? There is a lot to talk about but the one I

:29:42.:29:45.

particularly wanted to start with was something Hillary Clinton said

:29:46.:29:50.

last Friday, the date she was diagnosed with pneumonia, I'm not

:29:51.:29:52.

sure if that had anything to do with it. She had allegedly said this in

:29:53.:29:58.

private fundraisers all summer but in public at a glitzy fundraiser in

:29:59.:30:03.

New York with the entertainment provided by none other than Barbara

:30:04.:30:06.

Streisand, she told us exactly what she thinks not just of Trump butt of

:30:07.:30:10.

his supporters and I think we have that clip.

:30:11.:30:11.

You can put half of Trump's supporters into what

:30:12.:30:13.

I call the basket of deplorables.

:30:14.:30:17.

Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic,

:30:18.:30:26.

The basket of deplorable is. Is it a good or bad move? I think it is

:30:27.:30:43.

honestly a really big mistake. Aside trying to say that this is good for

:30:44.:30:47.

her campaign because it put into the conversation some of the more

:30:48.:30:51.

off-putting element of Donald Trump's rhetoric but in truth what

:30:52.:30:57.

it does is surely true voice of what has become a very arrogant ruling

:30:58.:31:00.

elite and it's not just the Democrats. You hear this talk from

:31:01.:31:05.

the Republican establishment who also hate Trump almost as much as

:31:06.:31:10.

Clinton does. They are showing that this election is dividing up in more

:31:11.:31:13.

interesting ways than we have seen up till now where you have working

:31:14.:31:16.

people who feel that whoever they voted for the last few decades,

:31:17.:31:21.

nothing has got better in their lives. And the elite has been in

:31:22.:31:26.

charge. We have seen as borne out by the data this week, new income

:31:27.:31:30.

figures published show that 50% of all Americans earn less today than

:31:31.:31:35.

in 1999 and in fact the bottom 10% earn less today than in the 1980s

:31:36.:31:39.

and I think that is really driving this enormous sense of anger and

:31:40.:31:44.

resentment at the ruling elite which she then insulted. And yet she does

:31:45.:31:49.

speak some truth, Donald Trump suddenly leaves himself open to

:31:50.:31:54.

accusations of xenophobia and his core support Jim to the rafters and

:31:55.:31:56.

he has attracted support from the likes of former grand Wizard of the

:31:57.:32:02.

KKK -- support him. What she is speaking the truth or making a

:32:03.:32:04.

mistake or something subtler than that?

:32:05.:32:07.

Most definitely it was a huge mistake. Trump made an ad out of

:32:08.:32:17.

that. People had it on their T-shirt "the deplorables" this is clearly a

:32:18.:32:20.

huge mistake. She broke the rule in politics. It's OK. In fact you're

:32:21.:32:28.

supposed to condemn racism and homophobia, but you don't condemn

:32:29.:32:31.

the voters that you need in order to win. In this case half of them. We

:32:32.:32:35.

are short of time tonight. I apologise. Mary, tell us what it is

:32:36.:32:41.

you have chosen to focus on from this week's electioneering? It's

:32:42.:32:44.

been a stealar week for Donald Trump. As you said he is pulling in

:32:45.:32:48.

the polls. Why don't we go to the clip today where he was capitalising

:32:49.:32:52.

on the fact that Hillary Clinton has been out with pneumonia. Where he

:32:53.:33:00.

used a TV doctor to tell all of the country that he is superbly fit. So

:33:01.:33:06.

theatrical and, in some ways, ridiculous.

:33:07.:33:08.

If your health is as strong as it seems,

:33:09.:33:11.

Well, I have really no problem in doing it.

:33:12.:33:15.

One is the report and the other is from Lenox Hill Hospital.

:33:16.:33:27.

He's turning it into a game show, Mary Jordan. Is he winning it? Well,

:33:28.:33:36.

he may be winning it. He is a reality TV star, right? He shows the

:33:37.:33:41.

country over and over again how masterful he is at using TV. He went

:33:42.:33:48.

on TV and got an hour of it today to tell the country that his

:33:49.:33:52.

testosterone, get this, is really high. He has so much stamina. He can

:33:53.:33:58.

hit a golf ball better now at the age age of 70 than when he was 30.

:33:59.:34:02.

He got a huge amount of air time out of this. I think he's a winner. It

:34:03.:34:09.

doesn't matter for a lot of voters that this doctor, Dr Oz has been

:34:10.:34:14.

condemned by people in the Congress, British medical journals, he's

:34:15.:34:18.

baseless. He is the guy for instance you should take coffee bean pills to

:34:19.:34:21.

lose weight. It doesn't matter. He got a lot of air time. I think it

:34:22.:34:26.

would help him. He is fully qualified. Is it another chapter in

:34:27.:34:33.

post-truth politics. I think it is. It's beyond parody. To be serious

:34:34.:34:39.

for a second the real health story was Hillary Clinton's actually

:34:40.:34:41.

health episode, as it has been described. It will have an effect on

:34:42.:34:46.

perceptions among the undecided voters about whether they want to

:34:47.:34:51.

take a risk on her versus Donald Trump who does, through this

:34:52.:34:56.

projects an awe are of strength whatever you think of him. Many

:34:57.:35:01.

thanks indeed for your time tonight. Speaking of winners.

:35:02.:35:07.

Just before we came on air tonight, the winner of this year's

:35:08.:35:10.

prestigious Mercury Music Prize was announced.

:35:11.:35:11.

It wasn't, as some predicted, the late, great David Bowie,

:35:12.:35:13.

He won the ?25,000 prize for his album Konnichiwa.

:35:14.:35:28.

Stephen Smith sent us this dispatch from the ceremony a little earlier.

:35:29.:35:33.

It came down to a contest between two black stars. We as a jury

:35:34.:35:54.

decided that if David Bowie was looking down on the Hammersmith

:35:55.:35:58.

Apollo tonight... APPLAUSE And, let's face, maybe he

:35:59.:36:03.

is. We've seen traces of his influence in many of the bands

:36:04.:36:08.

you've seen perform here tonight. If he was looking down at the

:36:09.:36:17.

Hammersmith Apollo tonight, he would want the 2016 Mercury Prize to go to

:36:18.:36:29.

Skepta. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:36:30.:36:32.

# That's not me # That's not me...

:36:33.:36:40.

# Yeah, I used to wear Gucci # That's not me

:36:41.:36:44.

# True I used to look like you... # Hello, Skepta. Newsnight, home of

:36:45.:36:48.

grime. How do you feel? We are not supposed to ask that question. How

:36:49.:36:53.

do you feel? Um... You looked overwhelmed in there? Yeah. I don't

:36:54.:36:57.

know. Have you ever dreamed of something happening all your life

:36:58.:37:00.

and it happened. It doesn't happen, but for you it did? Umm. It's like.

:37:01.:37:06.

I don't know... It's really reassuring to me to follow my mind

:37:07.:37:12.

and follow what I think. That got me to this point. It's reassuring. I'm

:37:13.:37:19.

happy for my team. So many people behind this guy that helped,

:37:20.:37:28.

Konnichiwa the album. We get to celebrate tonight. Did you hear what

:37:29.:37:34.

Jarvis said about David Bowie. What did you make of his remarks there?

:37:35.:37:41.

Definitely. I understand, as an artist when you are trying to work

:37:42.:37:45.

and putting something out. Getting to the point... Me, personally, I

:37:46.:37:49.

would have been happy to release an album just before I passed. I hope

:37:50.:37:54.

he feels fulfilled and I hope he's happy. Every artist should just

:37:55.:37:58.

strive to be putting out the best work they can because anything can

:37:59.:38:02.

happen. You can go any time, which is the reason I said rest in peace

:38:03.:38:07.

to David Bowie. Rest in peace to Amy Winehouse. I feel I'm representing

:38:08.:38:12.

London in the same way. Yeah, I hope that, yeah, I hope that he's happy

:38:13.:38:16.

man. What about the status of grime though? It's not always had a great

:38:17.:38:21.

press, some people perhaps misunderstand it. So what does this

:38:22.:38:25.

win do for the June are, do you think? We were young. We were young.

:38:26.:38:33.

Like, I think that people... Like, older people need to stop separating

:38:34.:38:36.

themselves from young mind or thinking one day they weren't crazy

:38:37.:38:39.

as well. It's all about understanding. We were young. People

:38:40.:38:43.

didn't want to understand us. We were expressing ourselves. They

:38:44.:38:46.

should have embraced it. It should have happened a long time ago. They

:38:47.:38:51.

didn't. It took me to grow older, realise my value and know my worth

:38:52.:38:55.

and I can carry myself the way I need to and spread therd word of the

:38:56.:39:02.

London streets in a nice manner. What about your mum busting some

:39:03.:39:03.

moves up there? Yeah, yeah! APPLAUS

:39:04.:39:14.

Shouts out to my mum. I love you. You are the reason for this. It

:39:15.:39:18.

sounds a cliche. I wouldn't be here without you. Thank you very much mum

:39:19.:39:26.

you can dance as much as you like. A little word for Newsnight.

:39:27.:39:30.

Newsnight. What channel. BBC Two? Sure, no problem. Tell us about this

:39:31.:39:37.

evening and those dance moves. Oh, my gadness. What can I tell you Does

:39:38.:39:44.

he get it all from you? Yes. Yes. He gets his creativity from dad. He got

:39:45.:39:49.

the dance move, the confidence, the get-up-and-go from me. Did you ever

:39:50.:39:52.

worry about him being in this scene? Did you hope he would have some

:39:53.:39:56.

other kind of job or have you always been behind him? Not really. When we

:39:57.:40:01.

raise them we want them to do what they want to do and we supervise. We

:40:02.:40:06.

didn't train them, we raised them. That's about it for tonight.

:40:07.:40:18.

you with a taste of this year's Mercury Prize winner.

:40:19.:40:22.

You've heard him speak, but here he is, in all his Grimy

:40:23.:40:24.

glory, performing at tonight's ceremony.

:40:25.:40:25.

# They want to know how I did it with no label no A-list

:40:26.:40:33.

# I'm like ring, ring, ring and it's shutdown

:40:34.:40:39.

# Went to the show, sitting in the front row.

:40:40.:40:42.

# In the black tracksuit and it's shutdown.

:40:43.:40:44.

# Boy better know when it's shutdown...#

:40:45.:40:48.

The heatwave is ending with a bang with severe disruption to the

:40:49.:41:18.

south-east including the London area tomorrow morning due to severe

:41:19.:41:21.

thunderstorms. Watch this space. It could be nasty. Wet to other eastern

:41:22.:41:25.

areas through the day with

:41:26.:41:26.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with James O'Brien. The Hinkley nuclear deal has been signed, and the Mercury music prize winner has been announced. Plus a look at the row over selling arms to Saudi Arabia, and a panel on the US election.