16/09/2016 Newsnight


16/09/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with James O'Brien.


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With 8000 451 votes, the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane

:00:14.:00:16.

James! Diane James is the

:00:17.:00:18.

new leader of Ukip. But will serial resigner

:00:19.:00:20.

Nigel Farage be able to stay out Ukip has a new boss,

:00:21.:00:23.

and she's already told Theresa May to "get on with" getting

:00:24.:00:27.

the UK out of the EU. She seems to be already putting

:00:28.:00:29.

old noses out of joint. You appear to have been replaced by

:00:30.:00:45.

a coffee break. Yes. Well, I suppose... Well, I don't know. It is

:00:46.:00:50.

a change of regime. And I just don't understand what is happening.

:00:51.:00:54.

Sir Bradley Wiggins, Russian hackers and banned substances that

:00:55.:00:56.

The woman who helped write the doping rule-book

:00:57.:00:59.

And it's not just medical records hackers have released this week.

:01:00.:01:04.

Is privacy becoming a thing of the past?

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And if it is, is it in the public interest?

:01:09.:01:21.

The UK Independence Party has a new leader.

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But with Brexit secured and former leader Nigel Farage

:01:25.:01:27.

apparently intending to take a more conventional approach to resignation

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than he did last time - or the time before that -

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Diane James, the party's MEP for South East England,

:01:36.:01:40.

today emerged victorious after a leadership contest that was,

:01:41.:01:43.

for the most part, as devoid of the usual rancour

:01:44.:01:46.

So who is she and what's to become of a party that has

:01:47.:01:51.

David Grossman spent the day at the party conference

:01:52.:01:56.

It is an absolute pleasure to announce, with 8,451 votes,

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the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane James!

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As Nigel Farage supposedly bowed out for the third time,

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his replacement this time had a message for the Prime Minister.

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From one grammar school girl to another...

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Stop the faff, stop the fudge, and the farce.

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That clearly went down well in the hall, but of course,

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a fact Diane James was reminded of repeatedly

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during her first press conference as leader.

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You are replacing one of the three, four or five best-known faces

:02:49.:02:51.

And for a lot of voters, this might be the first time

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they have become aware of Diane James.

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How would you introduce yourself to the British people?

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Exactly what you see in front of you, an MEP.

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Justice and Home Affairs spokesman for Ukip.

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Held Theresa May to account for two years.

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that she is also a pretty ruthless political operator.

:03:27.:03:29.

No sooner had Diane James been elected than she removed

:03:30.:03:32.

Neil Hamilton from the list of speakers on tomorrow's agenda.

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The former Conservative minister is blamed by many

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he has been replaced with a coffee break.

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It's a change of regime, and I just don't understand what's happening.

:03:47.:03:57.

What is your reaction to her election as leader of Ukip?

:03:58.:04:04.

Well, I was prepared to work with her and,

:04:05.:04:07.

as part of the team leadership that Ukip now needs,

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But we are a political party, not a fringe group

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One of those Mr Hamilton came into conflict with

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To add to the drama, today she defected to the Conservatives,

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It's going to be hard for them to differentiate themselves

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because she's doing wonderful policies that are likely to appeal

:04:39.:04:47.

How dysfunctional has the party been?

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you wouldn't want baby-sitting your dog, let alone running for office,

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And it's a shame, because what I've seen over the years

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is the talent and future promise of the party

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essentially being excised from the party.

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# Who do you think you are kidding, Mr Cameron?

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After all of those last-minute agenda changes,

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you'll be glad to know the Ukip choir, with their rendition

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of Who Do You Think You Are Kidding, Mr Cameron,

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will be appearing in tomorrow's event.

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The fact that it's still David Cameron in their song

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suggests a party that may be struggling to come to terms

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with the new post-Brexit referendum political reality.

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now that Britain has voted to leave the EU?

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One academic believes that Ukip can appeal beyond Brexit.

:05:43.:05:47.

There are broader issues around inequality, disadvantage,

:05:48.:05:49.

left behind groups, particularly white working class communities

:05:50.:05:53.

that feel as though they're not getting heard in modern Britain.

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you can see in many other European countries,

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successful populist movements, Five Star in Italy,

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So I think there is room for a party like Ukip.

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But it will have to resolve its internal problems -

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lack of unity, no money, dwindling membership.

:06:12.:06:13.

There is no gratitude and little loyalty in politics today.

:06:14.:06:20.

Having delivered on its signature policy, some in Ukip

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might have been expecting to be riding high right now.

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But no party has a right to exist, let alone thrive.

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So, where do Ukip voters want the party to go next?

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Secunder Kermani has been to West Bromwich,

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West Bromwich West was one of over 100 seats where Ukip came second in

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last year's general election, making inroads into traditional Labour

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heartland. But with Brexit now a reality, not a campaign slogan, what

:07:03.:07:09.

next for Ukip? We paid the local branch's social club visit, and it

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wasn't your average pub. We have the pub on this side, and on this site,

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we have the shop. And this is also the Ukip social club? Do they prefer

:07:26.:07:32.

the beads or the public? They prefer both. People from all walks of life

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come in. That is why you have the purple beads! Ray Crawford is a man

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of many beads and many hats. Amongst other things, he is a Ukip council

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candidate and he wants the party to position itself in the middle of

:07:48.:07:52.

British politics. The working class now are people earning ?15,000 to

:07:53.:07:56.

?80,000 a year, and are all struggling. Nobody is looking after

:07:57.:08:01.

them. Labour is looking after the people who don't earn the ?15,000,

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and on the other side, the Tory party is looking after the people

:08:06.:08:09.

who earn more. There is a massive gap in the middle. And do you think

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that without Nigel Farage, you can have the same popular appeal ever

:08:15.:08:19.

again? I am still dreaming of the fact that he will turn around

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tomorrow and say I am sorry I resigned, I am coming back! Voters

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here in the Black Country firmly backed Brexit, but many Ukip

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supporters doubt it will be delivered. I don't believe we will

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be out of Europe until I see it on paper. You voted Ukip last time, are

:08:38.:08:44.

you going to vote for them again? Yes. Why? They haven't done the job

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yet. But the government says it will take us out of Europe. But have they

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done it? You don't trust them? No. So is the party just a one trick

:08:59.:09:03.

pony? Now that the UK is leaving the EU, what is the point of Ukip? Ukip

:09:04.:09:08.

of 11, because they are going to keep the government to the candle,

:09:09.:09:13.

if you like, make sure we don't get Brexit light. I think Ukip has

:09:14.:09:19.

served a fantastic purpose so far, but that is not the end of them by a

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long way. It is fantastic today that we have got Diane James, who got 48%

:09:24.:09:30.

of the vote. She has a clear mandate. The disenchantment many

:09:31.:09:34.

Ukip voters have with mainstream politics remains, and that may leave

:09:35.:09:38.

many of them to stick with the party. But Ukip will have to define

:09:39.:09:41.

itself on more than just Brexit to broaden its appeal.

:09:42.:09:44.

Secunder Kermani reporting from West Bromwich.

:09:45.:09:47.

He defected from there to Ukip two years ago.

:09:48.:09:52.

He's the party's economics spokesman and sits in the Welsh Assembly -

:09:53.:09:55.

Let's start in Wales, because you have a new leader nationally. You

:09:56.:10:09.

have an old leader locally, Neil Hamilton. They already appear to be

:10:10.:10:12.

at loggerheads. Does someone like you now have to pick a side? Well, I

:10:13.:10:18.

pick Ukip's side and I try and work with people across the party. We

:10:19.:10:24.

have to build a team. We have to reach out and make use of all the

:10:25.:10:29.

talent within the party. It is fantastic that Bayern has won this

:10:30.:10:39.

contest. -- Diane. She has beefed your leader of the speaking roster

:10:40.:10:41.

and replaced him with a coffee break. You can call for unity but

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she doesn't appear to be minded to deliver it. There has been a bit of

:10:46.:10:50.

tension between Neil Hamilton and Nathan Gale, but Diane has come in

:10:51.:10:54.

as a new leader and the conference has been prepared and there have

:10:55.:11:00.

been proposals over what to showcase. Ultimately, Diane has just

:11:01.:11:03.

been elected as a leader, and if she wants to have a particular programme

:11:04.:11:10.

tomorrow, that is her right. But for people who don't follow these

:11:11.:11:14.

matters closely, Nathan Gill was the former leader of Ukip in the Welsh

:11:15.:11:17.

assembly who now sits as an independent after falling out with

:11:18.:11:20.

Neil Hamilton, but remains a Ukip MEP? Yes. We got seven members of

:11:21.:11:31.

the Welsh assembly elected. But he sits as an independent. Can you tell

:11:32.:11:35.

us more about Diane James? You saw my colleague trying to put a little

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flesh on the bones, but apart from the sort of detail we could have

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found on her business card, he was not successful. Do you know her

:11:43.:11:48.

well? I don't know her well. I know Diane. I have a professional

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relationship with her. The thing I would emphasise most about her is

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that like me, she has fought a by-election. And she came

:11:56.:12:03.

extraordinarily close to winning Eastleigh from a strong local Lib

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Dem campaign. She understands how to appeal to voters in the middle, had

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to expand our appeal. You are giving a CV, I am looking for something

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more weighty, something about her that we don't know. What she does

:12:19.:12:27.

is, she engages with voters. She goes out and understands what people

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want, speaks to people and reflects on what they say. She puts forward

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an attractive image of wanting to change things to benefit people in

:12:43.:12:47.

this country. In Eastleigh, she was nearly elected. But there is one

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candidate who has done even better and got elected, Douglas Carswell.

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She has not spoken to him for three months. Do you know why? I am not

:12:56.:13:02.

sure exactly... She has not spoken to Ukip's only MP. I think Douglas

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and Diane have a working relationship. I have been at

:13:08.:13:11.

meetings where they have worked together. She said one of her

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priorities will be to meet Douglas and discuss how best she works with

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our Ukip parliamentary party. The party's former PR, a few moments

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ago, described Ukip as being roughly half of them so dysfunctional that

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she wouldn't let them babysit her dog. Does that tally with what you

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recognise, bearing in mind that she has been with the party longer than

:13:36.:13:40.

you? That is a little unfair. Alex has done some work with me and

:13:41.:13:44.

occasionally put me forward to appear on programmes like this. I

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wish her well and far be it from me to criticise someone for choosing to

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move from one party to another. But this notion of dysfunction, some of

:13:55.:13:58.

the names and personalities of the party you joined, Suzanne Evans

:13:59.:14:01.

wrote the manifesto that you fought on in the last election. She has

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been essentially eased out of proceedings. Stephen Wolfe, for

:14:07.:14:10.

reasons that remain opaque, couldn't stand at all. Many felt he was Mr

:14:11.:14:14.

Farage's preferred candidate, and we are left with this question mark

:14:15.:14:18.

hangover Diane Jones, who you tell us wants to change things and

:14:19.:14:22.

reaches over to engage people. I don't imagine there is a politician

:14:23.:14:26.

in the country who would not seek to fit that description. What does she

:14:27.:14:31.

seek to change? What would be at the top of her to-do list? You mentioned

:14:32.:14:43.

Suzanne Evans and Stephen Wolff. I would like to see Diane make sure

:14:44.:14:46.

both of them play leading roles in the party. We had a superb manifesto

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that Suzanne wrote. I developed a lot of those ideas in a Welsh

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context for the election we won. Diane has to explain in her own

:14:52.:14:57.

words, and with her own passion, what our party is for. We have

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succeeded in getting out of the European Union. Very briefly, can

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you tell me what you think the party is for now that the eye bit of Ukip

:15:07.:15:12.

has been achieved? I think it is to get back our democracy. I was

:15:13.:15:17.

against the EU because I am a Democrat, not because I am a

:15:18.:15:20.

nationalist. We don't just want power back from Brussels to Britain,

:15:21.:15:24.

but then getting that power down to local communities and giving people

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back the sense that they are in charge of their destiny and have

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influence over their own lives. In your programme last night, people

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were paying two and a half times the price of electricity for 50 years

:15:36.:15:38.

because these corporate interests decide what is going to happen for

:15:39.:15:42.

them. We have to look to ordinary people in this country and try and

:15:43.:15:45.

make sure people have the opportunity of a better life, not

:15:46.:15:49.

having costs piled on them by a political elite and cartel that

:15:50.:15:53.

needs to be shaken up. And it is Ukip that speaks for the ordinary

:15:54.:15:56.

person, not for the corporate elites to make this a better country.

:15:57.:16:03.

But not necessarily speaking with one voice just yet. Mark Reckless,

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thank you. Few sportspeople have been more

:16:07.:16:09.

strident in their anti-doping In a sport beset by suspicion,

:16:10.:16:11.

accusation and actual offences, the Tour de France winning cyclist

:16:12.:16:14.

and five-time Olympic gold medal winner has always made much

:16:15.:16:17.

of his desire to cleanse his sport of the stains left by the disgraced

:16:18.:16:20.

doper Lance Armstrong. This week, though, a group

:16:21.:16:23.

of Russian hackers leaked the stolen medical records

:16:24.:16:25.

of the World Anti-Doping Agency, WADA, and Wiggins's name

:16:26.:16:30.

was among those found to have special medical exemptions

:16:31.:16:33.

to take banned substances. And while there is no

:16:34.:16:38.

suggestion of any wrongdoing, the nature and timing of those

:16:39.:16:41.

exemptions have posed His is a sport long tainted

:16:42.:16:44.

by illegal drug taking, so it has fallen on the likes

:16:45.:16:55.

of Sir Bradley Wiggins to try We are the ones picking up

:16:56.:16:58.

the pieces are much so and having to, I suppose, convince people

:16:59.:17:03.

that the sport has changed. It is difficult to convince some

:17:04.:17:07.

people, it really is, because of the precedent that has

:17:08.:17:11.

been set and so ingrained I haven't got the answer on how

:17:12.:17:14.

to do that other than to go out there and keep doing what

:17:15.:17:19.

I am doing, you know. Now, however, it is Sir Bradley

:17:20.:17:23.

who faces scrutiny, although there is no suggestion

:17:24.:17:26.

he has broken anti-doping rules. This week's revelations revealed

:17:27.:17:30.

that Wiggins had obtained an official exemption known as a TUE

:17:31.:17:32.

or therapeutic use exemption, to use Sir Bradley suffers from asthma

:17:33.:17:37.

and has a pollen allergy as well. This drug, which is banned

:17:38.:17:45.

during competition is used to treat serious allergies,

:17:46.:17:49.

but it is also known to be abused by athletes to help them

:17:50.:17:52.

recover and burn fat. Sir Bradley's former cycling team,

:17:53.:17:56.

Team Sky, applied for him to use a significant dose of this drug,

:17:57.:17:59.

just days before the start of Grand Tours in 2011 and 2012,

:18:00.:18:04.

when he won the Tour So why is Sir Bradley Wiggins facing

:18:05.:18:09.

questions when he has Well, by contrast, Lance Armstrong

:18:10.:18:15.

was a cyclist who for years abused corticosteroids and the system

:18:16.:18:23.

of medical exemptions that can He got a retrospective

:18:24.:18:25.

exemption that subsequently admitted he was using it

:18:26.:18:34.

for performance enhancing reasons. Team Sky have a well know zero

:18:35.:18:38.

tolerance policy towards drugs, but they have admitted

:18:39.:18:41.

it was a mistake to have given freelance work in 2011 and 2012

:18:42.:18:44.

to a doctor who was subsequently banned for life for doping

:18:45.:18:48.

violations in a previous role. Among various violations,

:18:49.:18:54.

Geert Leinders had admitted questionable quarter corticosteroids

:18:55.:18:58.

exemptions. In his autobiography,

:18:59.:19:02.

Sir Bradley says, I have When asked about this

:19:03.:19:04.

apparent contradiction injections revealed this week,

:19:05.:19:10.

a spokesman for Sir Bradley Wiggins everyone knows Brad

:19:11.:19:16.

suffers from asthma. His medical treatment is BC

:19:17.:19:20.

and UCI approved. Team Sky told us: Applications made

:19:21.:19:29.

by Team Sky for TUEs have all been managed and recorded in line

:19:30.:19:32.

with the processes put in place Joining me now is Michele Verroken,

:19:33.:19:35.

a former director of ethics and anti-doping at UK Sport,

:19:36.:19:41.

who designed and implemented current internationally accepted

:19:42.:19:45.

standards for doping control, Thank you for joining us. Forgive

:19:46.:20:01.

me, if this is a really silly question, but if I take this

:20:02.:20:09.

particular substance or any form of corticosteroid because I have asthma

:20:10.:20:15.

or allergies, does it retain its performance enhancing capabilities?

:20:16.:20:19.

The question is really whether some of the substance on the prohibited

:20:20.:20:23.

list do have performing enhancing benefits at the therapeutic dose. We

:20:24.:20:28.

may be talking about the overuse of medicines and the inappropriate use

:20:29.:20:32.

of medicines when people do not have that particular medical condition.

:20:33.:20:37.

It is re-difficult to answer your question about whether there is some

:20:38.:20:42.

correlation between you having this substance and suddenly becoming an

:20:43.:20:46.

elite athlete. I am not suggesting that that I have two cyclists here.

:20:47.:20:51.

I think this is what the average fan of the sport, and it is not just

:20:52.:20:57.

cycling, there are two cyclists, one of them has hay fever and the other

:20:58.:21:01.

one doesn't. That means the fellow with the allergies is allowed to

:21:02.:21:04.

take this drug which it is believed can help burn fat and help with

:21:05.:21:08.

recovery times. There are suggestions it could be useful in

:21:09.:21:14.

the mountain stages of a tour. The other cyclist doesn't have allergies

:21:15.:21:17.

so he can't take it. Is there any advantage accrued by the one who can

:21:18.:21:23.

take the substance? The athlete with the allergies has to deal with the

:21:24.:21:27.

allergies so quite honestly, no, is the answer, if they are dealing with

:21:28.:21:31.

allergic reactions, they are looking at a treatment in order to be able

:21:32.:21:36.

to continue to compete. But there is a perception, and that is the

:21:37.:21:40.

trouble, perception. Anyone who thinks that someone else is getting

:21:41.:21:48.

an advantage might themselves be tempted to cheat or to say, well, I

:21:49.:21:51.

think I've got a bit of an allergic reaction, can I have that? How is

:21:52.:21:57.

that police? That is one of the critical issues around this story

:21:58.:22:04.

that in actual fact, if someone is using a medication and they believe

:22:05.:22:07.

that it is going to help them, others look to see why they

:22:08.:22:11.

shouldn't be using those kind of treatment, even if they do not have

:22:12.:22:16.

that ailment. That is where the ova medicalised at an off the support

:22:17.:22:20.

that we do give to elite athletes has really let down the fairness of

:22:21.:22:25.

sport, because, if you have got the doctors who are prepared to

:22:26.:22:31.

prescribe... So we have to much information? We may have to much

:22:32.:22:35.

medical help going into elite sport that is actually wrong league

:22:36.:22:43.

supporting athletes. Doctors looking for loopholes? Exactly, and it's

:22:44.:22:47.

without medical conditions obtaining these substances and the

:22:48.:22:52.

verification. What do they have to do, just as a bit? No, there is a

:22:53.:22:58.

rigorous testing system. For something like asthma, I would not

:22:59.:23:07.

like to be... I was not making light of it. There is a bronchial

:23:08.:23:11.

provocation test and that is not nice for any asthmatic. As long as

:23:12.:23:15.

everyone around the world is being put through the same rigorous

:23:16.:23:19.

testing and that is what we cannot guarantee, that the standard

:23:20.:23:24.

operating for the approval of their repeated use exemptions is not

:23:25.:23:28.

without some degree of bias, some degree of lack of independence in

:23:29.:23:32.

the decision-making and it takes time for those who are in the layers

:23:33.:23:36.

of the system that are in place, to actually reject that application. It

:23:37.:23:43.

may be too late. This is going to involve quite a feat of imagination

:23:44.:23:48.

on your part, but imagine I was an elite athlete, can any doctor

:23:49.:23:53.

provide my diagnosis which I take to the governing body and say I am

:23:54.:23:58.

allowed this? Not quite any doctor. It would have to be someone who has

:23:59.:24:04.

though medical expertise. That there is no licensing by the body, it is a

:24:05.:24:08.

professional qualification they need? Not yet. It is at medical

:24:09.:24:14.

qualification but it is peer reviewed by other doctors who would

:24:15.:24:18.

look at your case independently and also anonymously and would come to

:24:19.:24:21.

the conclusion did that diagnostic evidence show that you needed that

:24:22.:24:25.

substance and there was no other permitted alternative. Would it be

:24:26.:24:31.

easier to get rid of the secrecy and have everything made public, it

:24:32.:24:36.

everybody was using every substance on the record. I am not a fan of

:24:37.:24:42.

this because I do think what we have seen just recently is a major

:24:43.:24:48.

privacy breach. We have seen athletes who trust the anti-doping

:24:49.:24:54.

system and share it with approved people, it has let them down. I

:24:55.:24:58.

don't think athletes should be afraid to have medical conditions

:24:59.:25:02.

and seek help for any illness they may have, but it is really not the

:25:03.:25:07.

case that we should be making every athlete now demonstrate their whole

:25:08.:25:14.

medical history. Michele Verroken, thank you. That leads me neatly to

:25:15.:25:20.

my next guest. It is almost as if we planned it.

:25:21.:25:23.

Athletes are not the only ones to have endured the leaking

:25:24.:25:26.

Private emails from former US Secretary of State Colin Powell,

:25:27.:25:29.

in which he was less than flattering about both Donald Trump

:25:30.:25:32.

and Hillary Clinton, are private no more.

:25:33.:25:34.

And donors to the Democratic Party, who expected their largesse

:25:35.:25:36.

to remain secret, have also been outed.

:25:37.:25:43.

Tonnes of information released by hackers. How much should be released

:25:44.:25:51.

and how much is in the public interest?

:25:52.:25:53.

Professor Jonathan Zittrain is faculty director

:25:54.:25:55.

at the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard University

:25:56.:25:58.

Professor. We seem to be moving quickly from a world in which

:25:59.:26:07.

whistle-blowers and hackers seem to act because they felt they should,

:26:08.:26:12.

into a world in which people are accessing and releasing this

:26:13.:26:17.

information simply because they can? Well, I think that is right. It is

:26:18.:26:21.

not simply because they can, because they may have their own agendas in

:26:22.:26:26.

mind, and that may mean the axis two e-mail and selectively release what

:26:27.:26:32.

they like, to create a mosaic. Each piece may be true but where the

:26:33.:26:37.

overall collection ends up suggesting something false. What

:26:38.:26:42.

strikes me is how much the public have got used to it. We take it as

:26:43.:26:47.

course that the private e-mails of a private citizen, essentially talking

:26:48.:26:51.

to his friends about his opinions of the candidates, we take it that we

:26:52.:26:56.

are entitled to see that when it is left on the doorstep of news

:26:57.:27:01.

organisations. You say there is no moral compass on the part of the

:27:02.:27:05.

people releasing the information. Obviously, we should all be a little

:27:06.:27:09.

bit careful about our private information but none of us can be

:27:10.:27:15.

completely safe? May be true but it is quite dangerous to think the end

:27:16.:27:19.

of the discussion is well, that will teach him to use e-mail. Electronic

:27:20.:27:24.

communication is now part of all our lives. I don't think we want to

:27:25.:27:34.

return to information being conducted in a park as if it was a

:27:35.:27:39.

drugs transaction. Or having to become official selves when you

:27:40.:27:42.

become US Secretary of state, I guess you are that forever and have

:27:43.:27:46.

to start acting as if you are on a news programme even when you are

:27:47.:27:50.

talking to your friends, that seems corrosive for a free society. The

:27:51.:27:56.

cessation of privacy once you become public. Is there anyway to stop it?

:27:57.:28:02.

Well, I think there may be some longer term remedies. The fact that

:28:03.:28:09.

we still have e-mail in the form it was in the 1990s, it is time to

:28:10.:28:14.

figure out ways to upgrade it. That could include having our trove of

:28:15.:28:19.

e-mail going back years, that might be accumulated in an online account

:28:20.:28:24.

because the storage is cheap, it should not be ready to leak like the

:28:25.:28:30.

exon valve these through a couple of keystrokes for hacker. There may be

:28:31.:28:37.

a way to have what they call glacial storage. Eyebrows get raised

:28:38.:28:44.

digitally speaking if someone is asking for everything. What would

:28:45.:28:49.

you consider personally to be a legitimate hack, so to speak? There

:28:50.:28:55.

are times when a system itself has enough issues, enough corruption.

:28:56.:28:59.

Anything that gets into the hands of the press, as the fourth estate, as

:29:00.:29:03.

a function of whistle-blowing, might be a candidate to say, while the

:29:04.:29:07.

means of getting it was a little unusual or even bad, it is sunlight

:29:08.:29:16.

being a disinfectant. But this is not corruption of public official,

:29:17.:29:22.

this is private correspondence by a private citizen. Then if we say it

:29:23.:29:28.

may be private correspondence that you are a public figure, that links

:29:29.:29:33.

to celebrities with leaks of their photo account and saying, they

:29:34.:29:38.

decided to be celebrities they had it coming. I think that is a

:29:39.:29:43.

dehumanising attitude and it will mean the only people who seek the

:29:44.:29:48.

spotlight will be people who are in new to having their private cells

:29:49.:29:52.

completely dissected and may not be representative of the range of

:29:53.:29:56.

people we want taking public office. A lot of the most prominent

:29:57.:30:00.

celebrities on the planet seem to be not just comfortable but committed

:30:01.:30:04.

to sharing every aspect of their existence with their fans. As you

:30:05.:30:09.

suggest, there is a form of Darwinian selection going on. Maybe

:30:10.:30:12.

those who would pursue the exposure are ones who for whatever reasons

:30:13.:30:18.

crave it, but even they may be carefully cultivating an image and

:30:19.:30:23.

have smaller and smaller spaces in which to explore, identify and

:30:24.:30:27.

express their true selves. When that is the case, I think the opportunity

:30:28.:30:32.

to bring one humanity into a job or a roll, or to be a role model that

:30:33.:30:40.

way, becomes quite limited. I think to allow our cynicism to start to

:30:41.:30:45.

equate genuine whistle-blowing with any form of hack of anybody, and

:30:46.:30:50.

just treat it as any other form of data, as if we were reading a

:30:51.:30:54.

history from 100 years ago, that strikes me as very corrosive to a

:30:55.:31:00.

free society. Professor guest-macro, thank you. That is almost it for

:31:01.:31:09.

this evening. The Rio Paralympic Games are almost over but we thought

:31:10.:31:14.

we would give you a recapture of the astonishing Team GB gold haul. Good

:31:15.:31:17.

night. # stars of track and field you are,

:31:18.:31:34.

# Stars of track and field you are, # Stars of track and field you are

:31:35.:31:37.

beautiful people...

:31:38.:31:39.

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