16/09/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with James O'Brien.

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With 8000 451 votes, the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane


James! Diane James is the


new leader of Ukip. But will serial resigner


Nigel Farage be able to stay out Ukip has a new boss,


and she's already told Theresa May to "get on with" getting


the UK out of the EU. She seems to be already putting


old noses out of joint. You appear to have been replaced by


a coffee break. Yes. Well, I suppose... Well, I don't know. It is


a change of regime. And I just don't understand what is happening.


Sir Bradley Wiggins, Russian hackers and banned substances that


The woman who helped write the doping rule-book


And it's not just medical records hackers have released this week.


Is privacy becoming a thing of the past?


And if it is, is it in the public interest?


The UK Independence Party has a new leader.


But with Brexit secured and former leader Nigel Farage


apparently intending to take a more conventional approach to resignation


than he did last time - or the time before that -


Diane James, the party's MEP for South East England,


today emerged victorious after a leadership contest that was,


for the most part, as devoid of the usual rancour


So who is she and what's to become of a party that has


David Grossman spent the day at the party conference


It is an absolute pleasure to announce, with 8,451 votes,


the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane James!


As Nigel Farage supposedly bowed out for the third time,


his replacement this time had a message for the Prime Minister.


From one grammar school girl to another...


Stop the faff, stop the fudge, and the farce.


That clearly went down well in the hall, but of course,


a fact Diane James was reminded of repeatedly


during her first press conference as leader.


You are replacing one of the three, four or five best-known faces


And for a lot of voters, this might be the first time


they have become aware of Diane James.


How would you introduce yourself to the British people?


Exactly what you see in front of you, an MEP.


Justice and Home Affairs spokesman for Ukip.


Held Theresa May to account for two years.


that she is also a pretty ruthless political operator.


No sooner had Diane James been elected than she removed


Neil Hamilton from the list of speakers on tomorrow's agenda.


The former Conservative minister is blamed by many


he has been replaced with a coffee break.


It's a change of regime, and I just don't understand what's happening.


What is your reaction to her election as leader of Ukip?


Well, I was prepared to work with her and,


as part of the team leadership that Ukip now needs,


But we are a political party, not a fringe group


One of those Mr Hamilton came into conflict with


To add to the drama, today she defected to the Conservatives,


It's going to be hard for them to differentiate themselves


because she's doing wonderful policies that are likely to appeal


How dysfunctional has the party been?


you wouldn't want baby-sitting your dog, let alone running for office,


And it's a shame, because what I've seen over the years


is the talent and future promise of the party


essentially being excised from the party.


# Who do you think you are kidding, Mr Cameron?


After all of those last-minute agenda changes,


you'll be glad to know the Ukip choir, with their rendition


of Who Do You Think You Are Kidding, Mr Cameron,


will be appearing in tomorrow's event.


The fact that it's still David Cameron in their song


suggests a party that may be struggling to come to terms


with the new post-Brexit referendum political reality.


now that Britain has voted to leave the EU?


One academic believes that Ukip can appeal beyond Brexit.


There are broader issues around inequality, disadvantage,


left behind groups, particularly white working class communities


that feel as though they're not getting heard in modern Britain.


you can see in many other European countries,


successful populist movements, Five Star in Italy,


So I think there is room for a party like Ukip.


But it will have to resolve its internal problems -


lack of unity, no money, dwindling membership.


There is no gratitude and little loyalty in politics today.


Having delivered on its signature policy, some in Ukip


might have been expecting to be riding high right now.


But no party has a right to exist, let alone thrive.


So, where do Ukip voters want the party to go next?


Secunder Kermani has been to West Bromwich,


West Bromwich West was one of over 100 seats where Ukip came second in


last year's general election, making inroads into traditional Labour


heartland. But with Brexit now a reality, not a campaign slogan, what


next for Ukip? We paid the local branch's social club visit, and it


wasn't your average pub. We have the pub on this side, and on this site,


we have the shop. And this is also the Ukip social club? Do they prefer


the beads or the public? They prefer both. People from all walks of life


come in. That is why you have the purple beads! Ray Crawford is a man


of many beads and many hats. Amongst other things, he is a Ukip council


candidate and he wants the party to position itself in the middle of


British politics. The working class now are people earning ?15,000 to


?80,000 a year, and are all struggling. Nobody is looking after


them. Labour is looking after the people who don't earn the ?15,000,


and on the other side, the Tory party is looking after the people


who earn more. There is a massive gap in the middle. And do you think


that without Nigel Farage, you can have the same popular appeal ever


again? I am still dreaming of the fact that he will turn around


tomorrow and say I am sorry I resigned, I am coming back! Voters


here in the Black Country firmly backed Brexit, but many Ukip


supporters doubt it will be delivered. I don't believe we will


be out of Europe until I see it on paper. You voted Ukip last time, are


you going to vote for them again? Yes. Why? They haven't done the job


yet. But the government says it will take us out of Europe. But have they


done it? You don't trust them? No. So is the party just a one trick


pony? Now that the UK is leaving the EU, what is the point of Ukip? Ukip


of 11, because they are going to keep the government to the candle,


if you like, make sure we don't get Brexit light. I think Ukip has


served a fantastic purpose so far, but that is not the end of them by a


long way. It is fantastic today that we have got Diane James, who got 48%


of the vote. She has a clear mandate. The disenchantment many


Ukip voters have with mainstream politics remains, and that may leave


many of them to stick with the party. But Ukip will have to define


itself on more than just Brexit to broaden its appeal.


Secunder Kermani reporting from West Bromwich.


He defected from there to Ukip two years ago.


He's the party's economics spokesman and sits in the Welsh Assembly -


Let's start in Wales, because you have a new leader nationally. You


have an old leader locally, Neil Hamilton. They already appear to be


at loggerheads. Does someone like you now have to pick a side? Well, I


pick Ukip's side and I try and work with people across the party. We


have to build a team. We have to reach out and make use of all the


talent within the party. It is fantastic that Bayern has won this


contest. -- Diane. She has beefed your leader of the speaking roster


and replaced him with a coffee break. You can call for unity but


she doesn't appear to be minded to deliver it. There has been a bit of


tension between Neil Hamilton and Nathan Gale, but Diane has come in


as a new leader and the conference has been prepared and there have


been proposals over what to showcase. Ultimately, Diane has just


been elected as a leader, and if she wants to have a particular programme


tomorrow, that is her right. But for people who don't follow these


matters closely, Nathan Gill was the former leader of Ukip in the Welsh


assembly who now sits as an independent after falling out with


Neil Hamilton, but remains a Ukip MEP? Yes. We got seven members of


the Welsh assembly elected. But he sits as an independent. Can you tell


us more about Diane James? You saw my colleague trying to put a little


flesh on the bones, but apart from the sort of detail we could have


found on her business card, he was not successful. Do you know her


well? I don't know her well. I know Diane. I have a professional


relationship with her. The thing I would emphasise most about her is


that like me, she has fought a by-election. And she came


extraordinarily close to winning Eastleigh from a strong local Lib


Dem campaign. She understands how to appeal to voters in the middle, had


to expand our appeal. You are giving a CV, I am looking for something


more weighty, something about her that we don't know. What she does


is, she engages with voters. She goes out and understands what people


want, speaks to people and reflects on what they say. She puts forward


an attractive image of wanting to change things to benefit people in


this country. In Eastleigh, she was nearly elected. But there is one


candidate who has done even better and got elected, Douglas Carswell.


She has not spoken to him for three months. Do you know why? I am not


sure exactly... She has not spoken to Ukip's only MP. I think Douglas


and Diane have a working relationship. I have been at


meetings where they have worked together. She said one of her


priorities will be to meet Douglas and discuss how best she works with


our Ukip parliamentary party. The party's former PR, a few moments


ago, described Ukip as being roughly half of them so dysfunctional that


she wouldn't let them babysit her dog. Does that tally with what you


recognise, bearing in mind that she has been with the party longer than


you? That is a little unfair. Alex has done some work with me and


occasionally put me forward to appear on programmes like this. I


wish her well and far be it from me to criticise someone for choosing to


move from one party to another. But this notion of dysfunction, some of


the names and personalities of the party you joined, Suzanne Evans


wrote the manifesto that you fought on in the last election. She has


been essentially eased out of proceedings. Stephen Wolfe, for


reasons that remain opaque, couldn't stand at all. Many felt he was Mr


Farage's preferred candidate, and we are left with this question mark


hangover Diane Jones, who you tell us wants to change things and


reaches over to engage people. I don't imagine there is a politician


in the country who would not seek to fit that description. What does she


seek to change? What would be at the top of her to-do list? You mentioned


Suzanne Evans and Stephen Wolff. I would like to see Diane make sure


both of them play leading roles in the party. We had a superb manifesto


that Suzanne wrote. I developed a lot of those ideas in a Welsh


context for the election we won. Diane has to explain in her own


words, and with her own passion, what our party is for. We have


succeeded in getting out of the European Union. Very briefly, can


you tell me what you think the party is for now that the eye bit of Ukip


has been achieved? I think it is to get back our democracy. I was


against the EU because I am a Democrat, not because I am a


nationalist. We don't just want power back from Brussels to Britain,


but then getting that power down to local communities and giving people


back the sense that they are in charge of their destiny and have


influence over their own lives. In your programme last night, people


were paying two and a half times the price of electricity for 50 years


because these corporate interests decide what is going to happen for


them. We have to look to ordinary people in this country and try and


make sure people have the opportunity of a better life, not


having costs piled on them by a political elite and cartel that


needs to be shaken up. And it is Ukip that speaks for the ordinary


person, not for the corporate elites to make this a better country.


But not necessarily speaking with one voice just yet. Mark Reckless,


thank you. Few sportspeople have been more


strident in their anti-doping In a sport beset by suspicion,


accusation and actual offences, the Tour de France winning cyclist


and five-time Olympic gold medal winner has always made much


of his desire to cleanse his sport of the stains left by the disgraced


doper Lance Armstrong. This week, though, a group


of Russian hackers leaked the stolen medical records


of the World Anti-Doping Agency, WADA, and Wiggins's name


was among those found to have special medical exemptions


to take banned substances. And while there is no


suggestion of any wrongdoing, the nature and timing of those


exemptions have posed His is a sport long tainted


by illegal drug taking, so it has fallen on the likes


of Sir Bradley Wiggins to try We are the ones picking up


the pieces are much so and having to, I suppose, convince people


that the sport has changed. It is difficult to convince some


people, it really is, because of the precedent that has


been set and so ingrained I haven't got the answer on how


to do that other than to go out there and keep doing what


I am doing, you know. Now, however, it is Sir Bradley


who faces scrutiny, although there is no suggestion


he has broken anti-doping rules. This week's revelations revealed


that Wiggins had obtained an official exemption known as a TUE


or therapeutic use exemption, to use Sir Bradley suffers from asthma


and has a pollen allergy as well. This drug, which is banned


during competition is used to treat serious allergies,


but it is also known to be abused by athletes to help them


recover and burn fat. Sir Bradley's former cycling team,


Team Sky, applied for him to use a significant dose of this drug,


just days before the start of Grand Tours in 2011 and 2012,


when he won the Tour So why is Sir Bradley Wiggins facing


questions when he has Well, by contrast, Lance Armstrong


was a cyclist who for years abused corticosteroids and the system


of medical exemptions that can He got a retrospective


exemption that subsequently admitted he was using it


for performance enhancing reasons. Team Sky have a well know zero


tolerance policy towards drugs, but they have admitted


it was a mistake to have given freelance work in 2011 and 2012


to a doctor who was subsequently banned for life for doping


violations in a previous role. Among various violations,


Geert Leinders had admitted questionable quarter corticosteroids


exemptions. In his autobiography,


Sir Bradley says, I have When asked about this


apparent contradiction injections revealed this week,


a spokesman for Sir Bradley Wiggins everyone knows Brad


suffers from asthma. His medical treatment is BC


and UCI approved. Team Sky told us: Applications made


by Team Sky for TUEs have all been managed and recorded in line


with the processes put in place Joining me now is Michele Verroken,


a former director of ethics and anti-doping at UK Sport,


who designed and implemented current internationally accepted


standards for doping control, Thank you for joining us. Forgive


me, if this is a really silly question, but if I take this


particular substance or any form of corticosteroid because I have asthma


or allergies, does it retain its performance enhancing capabilities?


The question is really whether some of the substance on the prohibited


list do have performing enhancing benefits at the therapeutic dose. We


may be talking about the overuse of medicines and the inappropriate use


of medicines when people do not have that particular medical condition.


It is re-difficult to answer your question about whether there is some


correlation between you having this substance and suddenly becoming an


elite athlete. I am not suggesting that that I have two cyclists here.


I think this is what the average fan of the sport, and it is not just


cycling, there are two cyclists, one of them has hay fever and the other


one doesn't. That means the fellow with the allergies is allowed to


take this drug which it is believed can help burn fat and help with


recovery times. There are suggestions it could be useful in


the mountain stages of a tour. The other cyclist doesn't have allergies


so he can't take it. Is there any advantage accrued by the one who can


take the substance? The athlete with the allergies has to deal with the


allergies so quite honestly, no, is the answer, if they are dealing with


allergic reactions, they are looking at a treatment in order to be able


to continue to compete. But there is a perception, and that is the


trouble, perception. Anyone who thinks that someone else is getting


an advantage might themselves be tempted to cheat or to say, well, I


think I've got a bit of an allergic reaction, can I have that? How is


that police? That is one of the critical issues around this story


that in actual fact, if someone is using a medication and they believe


that it is going to help them, others look to see why they


shouldn't be using those kind of treatment, even if they do not have


that ailment. That is where the ova medicalised at an off the support


that we do give to elite athletes has really let down the fairness of


sport, because, if you have got the doctors who are prepared to


prescribe... So we have to much information? We may have to much


medical help going into elite sport that is actually wrong league


supporting athletes. Doctors looking for loopholes? Exactly, and it's


without medical conditions obtaining these substances and the


verification. What do they have to do, just as a bit? No, there is a


rigorous testing system. For something like asthma, I would not


like to be... I was not making light of it. There is a bronchial


provocation test and that is not nice for any asthmatic. As long as


everyone around the world is being put through the same rigorous


testing and that is what we cannot guarantee, that the standard


operating for the approval of their repeated use exemptions is not


without some degree of bias, some degree of lack of independence in


the decision-making and it takes time for those who are in the layers


of the system that are in place, to actually reject that application. It


may be too late. This is going to involve quite a feat of imagination


on your part, but imagine I was an elite athlete, can any doctor


provide my diagnosis which I take to the governing body and say I am


allowed this? Not quite any doctor. It would have to be someone who has


though medical expertise. That there is no licensing by the body, it is a


professional qualification they need? Not yet. It is at medical


qualification but it is peer reviewed by other doctors who would


look at your case independently and also anonymously and would come to


the conclusion did that diagnostic evidence show that you needed that


substance and there was no other permitted alternative. Would it be


easier to get rid of the secrecy and have everything made public, it


everybody was using every substance on the record. I am not a fan of


this because I do think what we have seen just recently is a major


privacy breach. We have seen athletes who trust the anti-doping


system and share it with approved people, it has let them down. I


don't think athletes should be afraid to have medical conditions


and seek help for any illness they may have, but it is really not the


case that we should be making every athlete now demonstrate their whole


medical history. Michele Verroken, thank you. That leads me neatly to


my next guest. It is almost as if we planned it.


Athletes are not the only ones to have endured the leaking


Private emails from former US Secretary of State Colin Powell,


in which he was less than flattering about both Donald Trump


and Hillary Clinton, are private no more.


And donors to the Democratic Party, who expected their largesse


to remain secret, have also been outed.


Tonnes of information released by hackers. How much should be released


and how much is in the public interest?


Professor Jonathan Zittrain is faculty director


at the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard University


Professor. We seem to be moving quickly from a world in which


whistle-blowers and hackers seem to act because they felt they should,


into a world in which people are accessing and releasing this


information simply because they can? Well, I think that is right. It is


not simply because they can, because they may have their own agendas in


mind, and that may mean the axis two e-mail and selectively release what


they like, to create a mosaic. Each piece may be true but where the


overall collection ends up suggesting something false. What


strikes me is how much the public have got used to it. We take it as


course that the private e-mails of a private citizen, essentially talking


to his friends about his opinions of the candidates, we take it that we


are entitled to see that when it is left on the doorstep of news


organisations. You say there is no moral compass on the part of the


people releasing the information. Obviously, we should all be a little


bit careful about our private information but none of us can be


completely safe? May be true but it is quite dangerous to think the end


of the discussion is well, that will teach him to use e-mail. Electronic


communication is now part of all our lives. I don't think we want to


return to information being conducted in a park as if it was a


drugs transaction. Or having to become official selves when you


become US Secretary of state, I guess you are that forever and have


to start acting as if you are on a news programme even when you are


talking to your friends, that seems corrosive for a free society. The


cessation of privacy once you become public. Is there anyway to stop it?


Well, I think there may be some longer term remedies. The fact that


we still have e-mail in the form it was in the 1990s, it is time to


figure out ways to upgrade it. That could include having our trove of


e-mail going back years, that might be accumulated in an online account


because the storage is cheap, it should not be ready to leak like the


exon valve these through a couple of keystrokes for hacker. There may be


a way to have what they call glacial storage. Eyebrows get raised


digitally speaking if someone is asking for everything. What would


you consider personally to be a legitimate hack, so to speak? There


are times when a system itself has enough issues, enough corruption.


Anything that gets into the hands of the press, as the fourth estate, as


a function of whistle-blowing, might be a candidate to say, while the


means of getting it was a little unusual or even bad, it is sunlight


being a disinfectant. But this is not corruption of public official,


this is private correspondence by a private citizen. Then if we say it


may be private correspondence that you are a public figure, that links


to celebrities with leaks of their photo account and saying, they


decided to be celebrities they had it coming. I think that is a


dehumanising attitude and it will mean the only people who seek the


spotlight will be people who are in new to having their private cells


completely dissected and may not be representative of the range of


people we want taking public office. A lot of the most prominent


celebrities on the planet seem to be not just comfortable but committed


to sharing every aspect of their existence with their fans. As you


suggest, there is a form of Darwinian selection going on. Maybe


those who would pursue the exposure are ones who for whatever reasons


crave it, but even they may be carefully cultivating an image and


have smaller and smaller spaces in which to explore, identify and


express their true selves. When that is the case, I think the opportunity


to bring one humanity into a job or a roll, or to be a role model that


way, becomes quite limited. I think to allow our cynicism to start to


equate genuine whistle-blowing with any form of hack of anybody, and


just treat it as any other form of data, as if we were reading a


history from 100 years ago, that strikes me as very corrosive to a


free society. Professor guest-macro, thank you. That is almost it for


this evening. The Rio Paralympic Games are almost over but we thought


we would give you a recapture of the astonishing Team GB gold haul. Good


night. # stars of track and field you are,


# Stars of track and field you are, # Stars of track and field you are


beautiful people...


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