19/09/2016 Newsnight


19/09/2016

Emily is live in New York after the terror attack. Plus a look at the latest on Labour, deporting homeless EU migrants and Brian Cox on the post-fact age.


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Transcript


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Now that we have this suspect in custody, the investigation can

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focus on whether this individual acted

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alone and what his motivations may have been.

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The New York bombing suspect is caught after a shoot-out.

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He was originally from Afghanistan, and he's put Islam back

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...change the minds of the voters about Trump or Clinton?

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Terror and the response to it has become acutely, quickly political.

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How will it affect this presidential race?

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These attacks and many others were made possible because of our

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Also tonight: Therapeutic use exemptions.

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Get to know the phrase, as we may hear a lot more

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This sports scientist worries they're open to abuse

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And Brian Cox on science in an age of unenlightenment.

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There's something required of citizens, I think.

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And what's required is that they understand, as

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What it means for science to offer a view, how to weigh that.

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Many New Yorkers woke this morning to the sound of an emergency alert

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The accompanying message told them to look out for a particular man

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suspected of involvement in planting bombs yesterday

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By lunchtime in New York, they had him.

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Thanks. Americans awoke this morning to an active manhunt after those

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four Terror attempts over the course of the weekend. And by lunchtime

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news of a shoot out and I suspect now in custody. That man was a

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28-year-old Afghan born US citizen. His name is Ahmad Khan Rahami, and

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police believe he may be critical in helping them piece together what

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happened seven blocks from here in the Chelsea district of Manhattan

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where, on Saturday night an IED exploded with 29 people injured.

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There were several other attempted explosions around New Jersey, too.

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And at this critical juncture in the electoral cycle, many are wondering

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what terror and the response to it will do to the presidential race. We

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heard from Donald Trump first thing this morning suggesting that the

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police's hands could be tied by political correctness, and then

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emerged Hillary Clinton. She tried to remind the American people of the

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part she played in the capture of Osama bin Laden and called on them

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not to demonise an entire race or religion. So how will their rhetoric

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affects the presidential race? Have a look at this report.

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Three attempted terror attacks on the same day on US soil. An

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explosion. Pipe bombs and pressure cookers. Crude devices and last

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night they found several more stuffed into a backpack in a bin.

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The speculation from the Elizabeth police Department is that they were

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not timed to go off, therefore whether they are being investigated

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or followed that they were disposed of in a garbage can in a hasty

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manner. This is a city on high alert, awaiting the arrival of world

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leaders for a UN summit. And after a morning manhunt and shoot out, this

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is the man being held in custody, Mr Rahami, an Afghan born US national

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whose picture has been splashed across TV networks all morning. So

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far nothing to be said with any certainty except this, that 15 weeks

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before an election, it becomes political. We are going to have to

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be tough, I think this is something that will happen perhaps more and

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more over the country. You mean more terrorist strikes? Yeah, because we

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are weak, our country has been weak, we are letting people in by the tens

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of thousands, you've got to stop it. And from Clinton, this. We going

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after the bad guys and we are going to get them, but we are not going to

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go after an entire religion and give Isis exactly what it wants in order

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for them to their position. The Manhattan device went off just as

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the president was on his way here. His last speech to the Congressional

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Black Caucus board where he begged African-Americans to continue his

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legacy by voting for her. Any threat to national-security can be a major

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Game Changers, and this at a time when the Clinton campaign no longer

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seems so sure footed. The White House is just a mile or so up the

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road from here and over the course of the summer Hillary Clinton's path

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to it looked clear. She was far enough ahead in crucial swing states

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for the team to feel quite confident. Over the last week or so

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polls have narrowed dramatically and now the team is wondering if they

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have to change, too. Donna Brazil chairs the Democratic National

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committee. Is she concerned about the current state of the race? Are

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you worried about the polls narrow win? We knew all along that the

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polls would be tight going into the final spread to the campaign. But we

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are very confident that we have a great campaign, extraordinary

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leadership across the country, looking forward to the first debate

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and the countdown to election day. Does the fact the polls have

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tightened me in the campaign will have to change, you will have to

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change? We expect the polls to tighten. What happens in a

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presidential year is that the American people decide at the last

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minute. Some days they are with Hillary, some days they are not. At

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guess what? Overall they are looking for the kind of leadership that will

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lead this country forward. Outside the DC Beltway they are not social.

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He soccer mums are here to cheer, but sometimes their hearts aren't in

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it. Kind of sad to think that we have two candidates that nobody can

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really get their arms around. I think that they've both made

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mistakes, and America is watching, and we are not stupid. A game in

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many ways is Hillary's to lose. The changing demographics of America

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mean Democrats have fundamental advantages in the electoral map with

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more routes to win. Right now she needs them.

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Clinton's campaign is understood to be quietly pessimistic

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about both Ohio and Iowa, which Obama took twice.

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Florida, the largest prize, will remain competitive

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It is possible for her to lose the big three, they say,

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But she'll have to fight twice as hard for all

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And of course finding electoral maths is one thing, finding

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electoral viagra is quite another, particularly among this crowd,

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millennial 's, who bring idealism to eight backdrop of jaded politics.

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But perhaps Hillary's problem is less tangible, her campaign has

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stamina but she lacks momentum. She does not energise the way Obama did

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with his message of hope, or the way Donald Trump does with a message of

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anger. Americans feel they have known have 25 years, and even

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amongst some Democrats there is a sense of enthusiasm gap as they call

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it. As Obama said at the weekend, hope is on the ballot, but fear is,

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too. The remark may yet backfire. If terror moves centre stage at this

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critical point of the cycle, just one week before the presidential

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debates, Americans may be looking for reassurance in whatever form

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that takes. And that's the point, really. These

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attacks or attempted attacks, mercifully not fatal, but they have

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reminded Americans of their vulnerability and make them question

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who of those presidential choices would make them feel more secure.

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Let's pull that apart with my guests. I just learned that Kurt

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Volker was a CIA analyst for many years.

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If I said that people are looking for the candidate that says

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security, what would you say to that? I think people are scared and

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the rhetoric we are hearing from some of the candidates, especially

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Trump is meant to play on that paranoia. As far as a person who

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spells security, it is very vague. That could go either way. They could

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be looking for somebody who is strong and a leader with experience,

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and Hillary Clinton is certainly trying to draw on that and build on

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that assumption. But they could be looking for somebody who is from the

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outside of the foreign policy establishment, and going to shake

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things up, and that is what Donald Trump is counting on. It was very

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noticeable on Saturday night that Donald Trump was first up,

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immediately called it, there is a bomb in New York. Hillary Clinton

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emerged later and urged caution and the need for patience. She seems to

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have changed slightly, as he pushed her into a place where she has to

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come out sounding a little bit stronger? She does. There are two

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competing narratives going on. The Donald Trump narrative is that the

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administration, the US government, the Obama Clinton foreign policy,

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they don't get it, they are not keeping us safe, the terrorists are

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out there. So that's one narrative. On the other side you have this

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narrative, dynamic spearing is, I've been in the Senate, I'm in the

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situation room, I understand these issues, trying to project a serious,

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confident image, as Hillary Clinton is trying to do. The problem is that

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the public feels they don't get it, and is inclined to swing toward

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somebody like Donald Trump promising, even on a lack of

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experience, that he can do better. Hillary Clinton made reference to

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Trump obliquely saying we must not demonise a race or a nation. Do

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people here from her, somebody, there were all the questions about

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whether Obama would ever call out Islamist fanaticism, do people still

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watch her language in that way? Sure, people on the right certainly

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do, and a lot of Trump 's supporters or people leaning that way are

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certainly looking at that. But on the other side a lot of people are

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looking for her to make even more of a campaign issue of Trump's racism.

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The deplorables in another word, did that work or not? No, that was not a

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good choice, that was her elitism coming out which never helps. But I

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think there is segment of the electorate, racial minorities,

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people on the left who voted for Bernie, for whom Hillary Clinton's

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main selling point is that she is not a demagogue racist. So for her

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to emphasise that is a good choice for those voters, but it's tricky

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because there are also other voters. And for those on the left, they are

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now looking essentially at two pretty hawkish candidates. If you

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had to ask what foreign policy would be like under Clinton or under

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Trump, you don't know who would be more actively involved, right?

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Hillary Clinton comes off as a very traditional national-security

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leader, following on Obama, somebody described her campaign has a Obama

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heavy. Trump sometimes comes off as isolationist, sometimes very

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aggressive. So it is much harder to know what you are going to get. I

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think that Trump is trying to portray that he understands it and

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will deal with it. That is what he is pitching to them. What do you

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make of the race more widely? We have definitely seen a tightening of

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the polls, we know that there are supplies as every week at this

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stage, but would Clinton's team be worried by this and would baby

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changing? They are absolutely worried about this. They would be

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crazy not to be and be crazy not to try to change more. They need to do

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more to appeal to minority groups. She is spending a lot of time,

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curiously enough, at fundraisers. He's at these big rallies which look

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very public and cheese at fundraisers, does she need funds?

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It's a strange choice, she has a lot of funds already and she has the

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elite behind her, I mean, where else are they going to go? I don't think

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that the establishment needs to be convinced she is the right

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candidate. I think she needs to get out and talk to people.

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Mathematically it is harder for Trump? It is much harder, looking at

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the electoral college, the big states have always gone Democrat,

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California biggest among them. At the same time he is having a real

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run for some swing states that have not gone Republican for a while,

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Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Nevada. He's trying to rack

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up the real path to the presidency here. One thing I would say as

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regards to where we are in this election, I would say it is dead

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even and we don't know who will come out ahead and it will probably be

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decided by something we don't know yet. Sounds like an extraordinary

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few weeks still to go. Obama has congratulated the police for

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catching the suspect, the man they believe may have a connection to

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these bombs, at he urged supporters on Saturday to choose hope over

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fear, returning to his message, very important if people wanted to

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consider his legacy, to vote for her -- continue his legacy. The

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president really coming into the race at this point to back Hillary

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Clinton, too. The hackers known as the Fancy

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Bears, have been releasing more data today on the medical conditions

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of selected international Society generally frowns

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upon the leaking of But is it possible that people

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will at some point say these hackers have done us favour by alerting us

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to a grey area in relation What is being leaked are details

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of therapeutic use exemptions - TUEs - licences for athletes to take

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drugs for good medicinal reasons. Today, it emerged that Mo Farah had

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two TUEs over the years; golfer Justin Rose and Rafal Nadal also

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had details leaked. A lot of attention has focussed

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on Sir Bradley Wiggins, who had exemptions to take

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a powerful steroid called triam-cinolone on several occasions,

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just days ahead of major races, one of which was the 2012

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Tour De France, which he won. World Anti-Doping Agency say there

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is no problem. Now - there's no suggestion

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Sir Bradley, or any of the other A little earlier, I spoke

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to Dr Jeroen Swart from Cape Town. Dr Swart is much published sport

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scientist who last year defended Chris Froome against charges of drug

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cheating, having carried out He explained why he's less happy

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with what he's heard It is not one single point,

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it is a cluster of points and when you look at them

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in isolation, it might seem fine, but we take them all together

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in context, it leaves The first of those is simply

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the statements that were made by Bradley Wiggins himself

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in his autobiography in 2012 where he specifically stated

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that he had only ever used a needle or an injection for immunisations

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and for a drip when he was ill. And the team's policy,

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which was publicly stated, If one of the riders were sick

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they would rather send them home rather than use

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a prohibited substance These details that were leaked

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contradict both of those statements. It is simply that they

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contradict the statements The other aspects are that

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the substance that was used is quite a strong, long acting

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corticosteroid. It is not used frequently

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in the control of asthma and allergic conditions,

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it is used as a last resort. The other problem with that

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substance is it is the same substance that has been used

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by athletes specifically in cycling With a lot of testimonials

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from ex-professional cyclists, some who have been caught

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using prohibited substances and they all happen to have views

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coincidently on the exact same drug. And some of them have reported

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to have abused it in You have been a defender

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of Chris Froome, haven't you? And last year, you helped

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carry out tests on him, which you indicated were,

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if you like, helpful for Froome, against those saying

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he was cheating with drugs. And there have been details linked

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of his use of these TUEs as well. It is not just Chris Froome,

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I think I have been a fairly firm I have been involved in cycling

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for a long time. I have raced professionally

:18:35.:18:37.

as a cyclist in the mountain I have a strong

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passion for the sport. And during the time that

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I participated and I have been involved in the sport in other ways,

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I have obviously seen all of these scandals and we always

:18:46.:18:48.

want to be optimistic and hope that we have reached

:18:49.:18:54.

a new era where the sport is going to be cleaner and it

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certainly looks as though we are in better times than we have

:18:59.:19:03.

been in the past. And so, when a team such as Sky

:19:04.:19:06.

comes along and presents an image of being squeaky clean and certainly

:19:07.:19:09.

in terms of their stated intentions to do things by the book,

:19:10.:19:15.

and as transparently as possible and then does well in terms

:19:16.:19:19.

of their performances. That gives one hope and optimism

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and my approach has been to wait for evidence that that is not

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the case and rather than speculate and go on hearsay, and up

:19:34.:19:40.

until recently and specifically these TUE leaks, my position

:19:41.:19:46.

was more in support of them We have no evidence

:19:47.:19:49.

that they have cheated at all. This is a perfectly

:19:50.:19:54.

legal way of getting Last one, if I might,

:19:55.:19:59.

corticosteroids, are these really drugs now that you think needs extra

:20:00.:20:10.

regulation and extra care? If you look at one of the scientific

:20:11.:20:15.

studies into them and their performance from a French

:20:16.:20:21.

university, the colleagues published the study where they took

:20:22.:20:24.

recreationally competitive cyclists, they exposed them to a week

:20:25.:20:27.

of intense training and before that training week and after that

:20:28.:20:33.

training week they asked them to ride at 75% of their peak power

:20:34.:20:43.

output and they then give them another drug during a week

:20:44.:20:46.

of training as well. During the week of training

:20:47.:20:49.

without the corticosteroids, they improved their time by about,

:20:50.:20:51.

approximately ten minutes. The corticosteroid week

:20:52.:20:57.

when they trained with the exact same training, together

:20:58.:21:02.

with the dose of the corticosteroids daily, they improved their time

:21:03.:21:04.

by approximately 50 minutes. They almost doubled the time

:21:05.:21:08.

they could hold 75% That is quite

:21:09.:21:10.

a dramatic performance. The use of corticosteroids together

:21:11.:21:16.

with strenuous training resulted in a far greater improvement

:21:17.:21:22.

in performance after one week So there is evidence

:21:23.:21:25.

that corticosteroids enhance endurance and

:21:26.:21:29.

athletic performance. They are therefore prohibited

:21:30.:21:32.

in competition, but at the moment, there is no regulation

:21:33.:21:35.

of corticosteroids out of competition and that means that

:21:36.:21:40.

athletes can go and train and consume corticosteroids to

:21:41.:21:44.

whatever extent they like and then And if you look at the results

:21:45.:21:48.

of that study, that certainly indicates that they could

:21:49.:21:54.

have a performance enhancement by using corticosteroids

:21:55.:21:56.

as an aid to train. And lots of anecdotal

:21:57.:21:59.

evidence from former professionals who have been

:22:00.:22:01.

caught using prohibited We spoke to Team Sky and to

:22:02.:22:05.

Sir Bradley Wiggins office today. They both referred us to earlier

:22:06.:22:15.

statements they've made, emphasising that all TUEs

:22:16.:22:18.

were applied with the approval So Bradley Wiggins has said that

:22:19.:22:32.

when he wrote in his autobiography about never having had an injection

:22:33.:22:36.

he was referring to the historical practice of intravenous jacks --

:22:37.:22:43.

injections of performance enhancers, not the intramuscular 1-person --

:22:44.:22:48.

reference. Teams get it was wrong to say it did not allow riders compete

:22:49.:22:51.

under TUEs. At around midday on Saturday,

:22:52.:22:54.

Jeremy Corbyn is very likely to be re-elected as Labour leader

:22:55.:22:57.

and the recalcitrant parliamentary party

:22:58.:22:58.

will have to live with him, notwithstanding its

:22:59.:23:00.

obvious misgivings. The great debate among senior Corbyn

:23:01.:23:02.

opponents is whether to re-join A choice described as

:23:03.:23:04.

whether to serve or sulk. Meanwhile we can tell

:23:05.:23:07.

you what Team Corbyn's plan is, for what to do the the moment it

:23:08.:23:10.

wins the leadership again - it'll start preparing

:23:11.:23:13.

for a general election. Our political editor Nick Watt

:23:14.:23:14.

is with me. What can you tell us? What we have

:23:15.:23:28.

learned is that Jeremy Corbyn is planning to put the Labour Party on

:23:29.:23:31.

a General Election fitting if he wins that leadership contest as

:23:32.:23:35.

seems likely on Saturday. He accepts that Theresa May has said no to a

:23:36.:23:39.

snap election but he thinks she might hold an election next year for

:23:40.:23:44.

two possible reasons, one, she may need a mandate for her Brexit

:23:45.:23:48.

negotiations as a way of overcoming divisions in her party and the

:23:49.:23:50.

second reason is she may possibly look at the splits in the Labour

:23:51.:23:52.

Party. We might see a number of appointments,

:23:53.:24:09.

some reorganisation and an acceleration of the policy-making

:24:10.:24:11.

process to make sure that the Labour Party is ready for that. At the

:24:12.:24:14.

front of his mind is the hope that the prospect of an election will

:24:15.:24:16.

instil some discipline in his party. I also found out that Jeremy Corbyn

:24:17.:24:19.

is actually prepared to facilitate an early General Election, if

:24:20.:24:22.

Theresa May table a Commons motion calling for such an early election,

:24:23.:24:25.

he would instruct his Labour MPs to vote for it because under the fixed

:24:26.:24:29.

term Parliament act, that can only happen if two thirds of MPs vote for

:24:30.:24:35.

it. A lot of this is around an attempt to unify the party but you

:24:36.:24:40.

have news on his mission to do that as well. Jeremy Corbyn has been

:24:41.:24:45.

involved in an exercise to try and woo back former frontbenchers. I

:24:46.:24:48.

spoke to two former members of the Shadow Cabinet who said they would

:24:49.:24:54.

accept an invitation, the former Shadow Welsh Secretary said that if

:24:55.:24:58.

he wins it will be a time for everyone to be positive and another

:24:59.:25:01.

former frontbencher who was very critical of Jeremy Corbyn at the

:25:02.:25:05.

time of those resignations, said it would be time to pull together. A

:25:06.:25:10.

much larger group of former frontbencher say they regularly come

:25:11.:25:16.

back if the national executive would consider to rival proposals, one

:25:17.:25:21.

table by Tom Watson is to restore the old system, the second, a system

:25:22.:25:24.

favoured by Jeremy Corbyn is to give party members are far greater say.

:25:25.:25:28.

The Tom Watson proposal is favoured by most of the former frontbenchers,

:25:29.:25:33.

the Jeremy Corbyn proposal is favoured by a few. The election next

:25:34.:25:37.

year, the idea of an election next year, it is not only Jeremy Corbyn

:25:38.:25:43.

who is saying that is one to watch. I have been speaking to Paddy

:25:44.:25:48.

Ashdown, and he says that if Theresa May goes for a soft Brexit, when she

:25:49.:25:52.

triggers the process to take us out early next year, he believes that

:25:53.:25:57.

would lead to a civil war, which could bounce her into holding an

:25:58.:26:01.

early election. This is what he told me.

:26:02.:26:03.

If she chooses as I think she will, something that's in the best

:26:04.:26:06.

interests of Britain, if it has to be Brexit, i.e.

:26:07.:26:09.

continued access to the single market, she has 100 MPs

:26:10.:26:11.

who are going to say, up with this we will not put.

:26:12.:26:14.

She then loses the majority in the House of Commons.

:26:15.:26:16.

Sooner or later she has to bring that back to the house.

:26:17.:26:19.

She will find herself in that conundrum.

:26:20.:26:21.

Labour will say no for opportunistic reasons, they won't support her.

:26:22.:26:23.

If she wants to get that through, she

:26:24.:26:25.

So she doesn't think she wants an election,

:26:26.:26:29.

I think she's honest in saying she won't get one.

:26:30.:26:33.

But I'm not sure that the civil war in the Tory party, not

:26:34.:26:36.

yet visible but will become increasingly visible as she

:26:37.:26:38.

identifies that, will make that the only way

:26:39.:26:40.

Paddy Ashdown's theory there. Thank you very much.

:26:41.:26:50.

There is freedom of movement across Britain and the EU

:26:51.:26:52.

at the moment, but back in May the Home Office qualified the right

:26:53.:26:55.

of Europeans to reside here, by saying that those who have no

:26:56.:26:58.

where to live, can be sent back to their own country.

:26:59.:27:01.

Now, this means EU citizens who are found living on the street

:27:02.:27:04.

for whatever reason can be forcibly repatriated.

:27:05.:27:06.

It is a way of reducing the number of street sleepers -

:27:07.:27:08.

which have been boosted by foreigners struggling

:27:09.:27:10.

Katie Inman has been looking at how the policy is working.

:27:11.:27:57.

I would say that we would have around 50 to 60 people sleeping

:27:58.:28:02.

rough and many of them would move out, only for the summertime,

:28:03.:28:05.

because they are happy to live in these conditions

:28:06.:28:07.

But some people have to stay all the time because they do not

:28:08.:28:20.

Do they know anyone who has been removed or sent

:28:21.:28:24.

They know some people who have been removed by immigration

:28:25.:28:28.

TRANSLATION: If you're working, it is not a problem

:28:29.:28:34.

but if you cannot find work to support yourself, it is hard.

:28:35.:28:37.

If you're not paid, they will throw you out.

:28:38.:28:41.

They are earning around ?50 a day and around ?35 is spent for food

:28:42.:28:44.

and ?15 they then send back to their families in Romania.

:28:45.:28:54.

We are looked down on and seen as bad as if we are here

:28:55.:29:04.

When you came here from Latvia five years ago, what did you hope for?

:29:05.:31:31.

It sort of was arranged but it did not work out.

:31:32.:32:08.

I do not shoplift, I do not rob people,

:32:09.:32:11.

I simply try to survive and someone is basically making a wrong

:32:12.:32:20.

And so, I am being brushed with the same brush of other

:32:21.:32:27.

homeless people, drug addicts and stuff.

:32:28.:32:44.

The issue around whether or not somebody should be removed

:32:45.:32:49.

is invariably nothing to do with economic inactivity,

:32:50.:32:51.

but has always traditionally been associated with some sort

:32:52.:32:54.

of criminalisation process, having been imprisoned, etc...

:32:55.:32:58.

and one of the things that is clear is that you cannot remove someone

:32:59.:33:01.

simply on the basis of poverty, but rather

:33:02.:33:03.

Over at the Royal Society this evening, the Insight Investment

:33:04.:33:33.

Brian Cox has been hosting the event, and the winner

:33:34.:33:40.

is Andrea Wulf for a biography of the German explorer and

:33:41.:33:43.

If you want to know one thing about Humboldt, it should be that

:33:44.:33:49.

more things have been named after him than anyone else.

:33:50.:33:52.

Well, this year's science book prize comes at a time of apprehension

:33:53.:33:55.

for many in the science community, over funding and collaboration post

:33:56.:33:58.

Brexit, and over the place of science in a world

:33:59.:34:01.

in which there is diminishing deference to expert opinion.

:34:02.:34:03.

I went down to the Royal Society earlier, to meet Andrea

:34:04.:34:06.

Looking down the slopes and the mountain ranges in the distance,

:34:07.:34:24.

everything Humboldt had seen in the previous years came together.

:34:25.:34:26.

Everything that he'd ever observed fell into place.

:34:27.:34:29.

This new idea of nature was to change the way people

:34:30.:34:31.

The most common reaction I got when I said I

:34:32.:34:36.

was writing a book about Humboldt was a blank face because very few

:34:37.:34:39.

The weird thing is there are more people, places and plants named

:34:40.:34:45.

There is a Humboldt current, Humboldt Penguin,

:34:46.:34:48.

Even the state of Nevada was almost called Humboldt

:34:49.:34:54.

when the name was discussed in the 1860s.

:34:55.:34:56.

We would be saying Las Vegas, Humboldt, now.

:34:57.:35:01.

I mean, Brian, he was doing his science at a time when

:35:02.:35:04.

science, I mean, you make it sound fun but it was much more fun in his

:35:05.:35:08.

day because there was so much you could discover.

:35:09.:35:10.

You could be discovering acres of the world,

:35:11.:35:12.

We've just been discussing this actually.

:35:13.:35:16.

You saw it in Britain with people like

:35:17.:35:23.

Joseph Banks and on through to Darwin, and you see

:35:24.:35:25.

There is always a sense of regret, I think, that now

:35:26.:35:32.

Regret is probably the wrong word because we have a vast amount of

:35:33.:35:40.

knowledge that no one human being can get across, and it is very

:35:41.:35:43.

Perhaps this time, the 1860s to the 1870s

:35:44.:35:55.

was the last time you could do that.

:35:56.:35:57.

I think he is really the last polymath.

:35:58.:35:58.

He dies in 1859, that's really the last moment that one

:35:59.:36:01.

person can hold all the knowledge in their head.

:36:02.:36:03.

After that science is

:36:04.:36:09.

specialised so much, scientists crawl into their narrowing

:36:10.:36:11.

disciplines, and this kind of holistic view

:36:12.:36:12.

It's rather interesting because in the

:36:13.:36:16.

book you talk about Darwin and his relationship to Humboldt.

:36:17.:36:18.

You say Darwin was standing on Humboldt's

:36:19.:36:20.

Do we slightly overestimate Darwin's contribution

:36:21.:36:26.

Given that quite a lot of it was there in the

:36:27.:36:32.

work Humboldt had been doing, and others?

:36:33.:36:33.

mistakes we tend to do is create these geniuses, these kind of

:36:34.:36:41.

amazing figures in history, where actually they don't act out on their

:36:42.:36:44.

own, they are very much part of what's going on around them.

:36:45.:36:47.

They are not just coming up with

:36:48.:36:49.

What Humboldt is doing is, for example, inspiring

:36:50.:36:57.

Darwin to actually go to South America.

:36:58.:36:58.

So Darwin says he would have never boarded the Beagle

:36:59.:37:01.

If he'd not boarded the Beagle he would never have

:37:02.:37:08.

But he's also using Humboldt's books as

:37:09.:37:11.

an inspiration for his own writing, so they are very similar in style,

:37:12.:37:14.

because Humboldt combines poetic landscape descriptions with hard

:37:15.:37:16.

scientific data, very much like Darwin does

:37:17.:37:18.

But he also learns about, Humboldt writes about the

:37:19.:37:29.

But other scientists are also doing this.

:37:30.:37:34.

I think we need to see them in the context.

:37:35.:37:37.

The scientific community, the Royal Society has been

:37:38.:37:40.

worried about Brexit, complete change of subject

:37:41.:37:41.

Worried about Brexit implications for collaboration

:37:42.:37:45.

The government can sort out the funding

:37:46.:37:54.

and say we'll make sure you are funded, is that enough

:37:55.:37:57.

to satisfy the scientific community about some

:37:58.:38:00.

of the nerves there have been about Brexit?

:38:01.:38:02.

No, I think the funding, although important, is secondary to

:38:03.:38:06.

the freedom of movement of people, the freedom of movement of ideas.

:38:07.:38:10.

That's always been central to the scientific endeavour.

:38:11.:38:18.

I myself, for certain, it's

:38:19.:38:21.

At the last count there were

:38:22.:38:23.

something like 88 countries collaborating, it increases all the

:38:24.:38:26.

There is the European Southern Observatory which is the world's

:38:27.:38:31.

There are big international projects.

:38:32.:38:36.

And if it turns out that people can't move freely to

:38:37.:38:43.

study, move freely to cooperate, then I think that's more damaging.

:38:44.:38:52.

We've always dealt with short-term variations in funding.

:38:53.:38:55.

Funding goes up and down and we weather the storm.

:38:56.:39:02.

If we, as a country, cut ourselves off, if we make it

:39:03.:39:05.

more difficult to collaborate across national borders,

:39:06.:39:07.

then I think that is something more serious.

:39:08.:39:13.

The Brexiteers I'm sure will say that's

:39:14.:39:15.

Before we go, some breaking news while we have been on air, an aid

:39:16.:39:28.

convoy carrying emergency supplies of food and medicine has been

:39:29.:39:32.

attacked by air strike in Syria. The convoy was bound for rebel held

:39:33.:39:36.

areas of Aleppo. It's unclear who was responsible for the attacks but

:39:37.:39:40.

it is a clear sign that the tentative ceasefire signed a week

:39:41.:39:45.

ago, well, it appears to be over. At least 12 aid workers are believed to

:39:46.:39:50.

have been killed. We'll follow that up in tomorrow's programme. But that

:39:51.:39:52.

is it for tonight. We leave you with the work

:39:53.:39:55.

of inventor and artist John Edmark. His speciality is spinning

:39:56.:39:58.

round sculptures at a speed carefully synchronised with a strobe

:39:59.:40:02.

light in a design strictly dictated by fibanacci

:40:03.:40:04.

numbers, all in order to... # Round round get around

:40:05.:40:06.

# I get around # Get around round round

:40:07.:40:19.

# I get around # From town to town

:40:20.:40:24.

# I get around # I'm a real cool head

:40:25.:40:27.

# Get around round round

:40:28.:40:29.

# I get around # I'm makin' real good bread

:40:30.:40:31.

# Round round get around I get around

:40:32.:40:33.

# Get around round round I get around

:40:34.:40:36.

# Get around round round I get around

:40:37.:40:42.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. Emily is live in New York after the terror attack. Plus a look at the latest on Labour, deporting homeless EU migrants and Brian Cox on the post-fact age.


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