14/09/2016 Newsnight


14/09/2016

With Emily Maitlis. A look at David Cameron's legacy, the future of the EU, abortion in Northern Ireland and the deportation of homeless migrants.


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The unravelling of a prime-ministerial legacy,

:00:07.:00:07.

less than three months after he's gone.

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It's about time people just stopped dissing him all the time,

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and actually see him for what he has done for my party and,

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Did Cameron's party always disliked what he did, or does every new

:00:16.:00:28.

leader have to dump the narrative of the last one? We ask one of his

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earlier supporters, Nicholas Soames. Also tonight in Strasbourg,

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Europe asks how it can shape its future without us

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to help them along. The man charged by Parliament with

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negotiating Brexit has this to say. Stop the politics of division,

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and seize this opportunity not to kill Europe, as some of you want,

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but to reinvent Europe. The former Prime Minister

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of Finland thinks Brexit And, the EU migrants

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in Britain facing deportation TRANSLATION: If you're working,

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it's not a problem, but if you can't find work to support yourself,

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then it's hard. You won't have anywhere to sleep,

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because if you're not paid, "History will be kind to me",

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Winston Churchill once said, Every living Prime Minister has

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to watch as their legacy For some though, it

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comes rather quickly. Our former Prime Minister, David

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Cameron, relinquished all the final trappings of power this week,

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as he stepped down as an MP. Barely had he left the scene than

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a new narrative began to emerge. One where he faces criticism

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for his intervention in Libya in 2011, where his education

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policies are turned upside down, where austerity becomes a word

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of a bygone age and where we're no There seems to be little love

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lost between Theresa May and David Cameron,

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and every leader wants But there is a nakedness to leaving

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office, a vulnerability exposed Newsnight has learned that senior

:02:01.:02:18.

advisers to Theresa May think that the differentiation strategy from

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David Cameron has gone too far. It was bloodless, but it was a

:02:20.:02:29.

purge. Theresa May has not yet reached her first 100 days in

:02:30.:02:33.

office, at already our new leader has gone out of her way to hairbrush

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David Cameron from history. -- to airbursh. Theresa May is

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absolutely right saying I am my own woman, this is the person that I am.

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She's absolutely right to do that. She has to put a bit of blue water

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between herself and the previous administration. It may be the most

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rapid transfer of power in recent history, but the Prime Minister had

:03:00.:03:03.

clearly been thinking long and hard about how she would differentiate

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herself from David Cameron. Out went most of the eater Tony ands, the

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northern powerhouse, and in came Grammar schools. -- out went most of

:03:14.:03:20.

the Etonians. She is definitely trying to be different to David

:03:21.:03:24.

Cameron. She knows that Cameron at the start talks about education and

:03:25.:03:28.

progress, but he didn't talk about selection, he took a stand against

:03:29.:03:33.

selection. She has chosen to go in favour of selection. It can't but be

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intentional. It has upset some of Cameron's most ardent supporters.

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We've got to stop trashing David Cameron. And I'm not a Cameroon. I

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didn't go to any parties at Chequers. I'm not part of his in a

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circle. I'm just grateful for everything he's done for my party at

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my country. I thought he was an outstanding Prime Minister and

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fabulous leader of my party. It's about time people stopped dissing

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him and saw him for what he has done for our country. Some of his allies

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are biding their time before deciding when to strike back.

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Newsnight understands that one of his friends shouted out viva Cameron

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when she fired the shot and sacked him.

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Perhaps some of the elements of their differentiation strategy have

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gone too far. An old friend of the former Prime Minister's, who is

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helping him with his memoirs, wings that the differences are being

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exaggerated. We're right to think about those differences and comment

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on them, but we may then be missing something which is also important,

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which is similarities about one centrist, modernising Conservative

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Prime Minister giving way to another centrist modernising Conservative

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Prime Minister. He thinks that Theresa May should be given support

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for consistency for her support for selection. I was director of policy

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when she was Shadow Secretary of State for Education and William

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Hague was the leader of the Conservative Party and this was the

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agenda that she developed then. She has had to wait all this time

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diplomat it. If she had been part of the Cameron in a government, as it

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were, she would probably have done some of this by now. So because of

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being slightly outside it whilst still being a moderniser, she has

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got a change agenda but inside that sort of Cameron worldview. I think

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that's probably quite a good balance. One veteran Tory says we

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should remember that Theresa May has taken over in wholly different

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circumstances to the last two Prime Minister 's who entered number ten

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without an election. There was an elements of failure both with Tony

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Blair and Mrs Thatcher that gave a chance to a new leader and they

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could take on something different. David Cameron, in my mind, that

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wasn't really the case. Of course, the referendum turned out to be an

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Arab and a catastrophic one and it has cost him. But the rest of the

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policy was going in a way where he could say made some successes. The

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economy has picked up. He was points ahead in the opinion polls and all

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that. So it wasn't quite the same circumstances. David Cameron is

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living up to his commitment to go dark, but he will be back. With

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Churchill's dictum about the importance of recording the first

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draft of history, he is busy scribbling away at his memoirs. We

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will have more from Nick Watt later. But now Sir Nicholas Soames,

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one of David Camerons earliest parliamentary supporters,

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joins me now. I don't think I've ever done this

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before but we don't actually know where you stand on his legacy.

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You were booked on the basis that we agreed to "suck it and see"!

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Why don't we start by getting a sense, do you think this is the

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dismantling of Cameron's policy? I don't. This is a new Prime Minister.

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David Cameron has left, to my sadness, is under 58 and still with

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a lot more to give, but he has decided to go and he has gone and

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the party has moved quickly to elect a new Prime Minister, and she has

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every right to have who she wants in our cabinet, who she wants in what

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job, and she is part of the very first Cameron government and I think

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she is building on it. A complete coincidence that he acknowledges his

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resignation ten minutes before Justine Greening gets up to stand on

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grammar schools, or that she made a speech and very first words are

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about elitism being rejected, about austerity being rejected? About all

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those things we've heard so much about over the past six years? I'm

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the wrong person to get on this because I don't know anything about

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the ins and outs, I'm not being naive about it but I just don't

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know. I believe that David Cameron was right to resign, actually,

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because I think he does feel that every time he chooses to say

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something, and he will want to say stuff as a member of Parliament, he

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will be put, as Ted Heath was, in a very ill judged time that he was out

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of office. So I think he was right to do that. I think the situation

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is, as Nick Watt said in his piece, the situation has completely

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changed. We have this extraordinary challenge of Brexit. The very harsh

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austerity... But even her own advisers think that she's gone too

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far. In terms of differentiation, if you pick five things in the last

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week, and I'm not even counting the Libya report which obviously has

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come independently, whether it is education, whether it is this bores

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on Hinkley Point, which we will know about soon, whether it is HS two,

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the relations with the Chinese, the grammar schools, all the rest of it,

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you don't have to look very far to see all the Cameron thinks she is an

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doing. I don't see it as a big issue. I think Hinkley Point is one

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of the most expensive and extreme the controversial projects. I think

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any incoming Prime Minister would want to have a very careful look at

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it. The Rona Fairhead thing, I don't know what the issues are there, but

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she's totally entitled to do this. It is a new administration. But it

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is an administration that is quite clearly going to build on what is on

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gunnery and others would like to see and I think it will go further than

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David was able to go. So let's take it one further, you think she is in

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the right direction? If these things get under, even though you were a

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firm supporter of Cameron's, you wouldn't get quite upset? I'm not

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upset, but politics is a harsh, rough and quite bloody business.

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Theresa May is the Prime Minister and she takes a certain view and she

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is entitled to take her Administration in the way she sees

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fit. But she is building on the Cameron inheritance. What does the

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Tory party do? Does the Tory party say yes, we're all for academies,

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yes we are all for grammar schools... Whether you're for

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grammar schools, it is not to say that you're not for academies. I'm

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absolutely pro-anything that is going to enhance the life chances of

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a lot of people who really are not getting a fair crack of the whip. If

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you choose to put a grammar school in a post-industrial town where

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there are no good schools, I think that is a wonderful thing to do. A

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wonderful thing to do. So I think she's going to press on. And I think

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she has the space and the opportunity, in a way... And you

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think she will succeed with Brexit? Well, I think Brexit is a very

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difficult, complex matter which you're going to discuss with the

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former Prime Minister of Finland. It's either going to go smoothly for

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us, which I don't think it will, or it will be a very bitter and

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protracted affair. And I'm afraid it will be a very bitter and protracted

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affair and could last a long time. I'm sure the Prime Minister is very

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aware but the world is not going to wait for Britain to make its mind

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up. We need to get on with this. Sir Nicholas Soames, thank you very

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much. Joining me now, the Times Columnist

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Tim Montgomerie, and Polly Toynbee, Nice to have you both here. You

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heard from Sir Nicholas a sense that it is business as usual and this is

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just what you do. Tim, are you hearing a proper, new territory with

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Theresa May now? A differentiation strategy? Look, on the 23rd of June

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I think Britain just didn't -- didn't just vote for Brexit, there

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were a huge of this affected poorer Britons, who in their vote were

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crying out for change. With Theresa May at the new Prime Minister, seeds

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-- if she didn't acknowledge that as well as wanting to leave the

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European Union there was a call for a different time politics, she would

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be failing... David Cameron won the general election on his policies a

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year ago. He won with 36% of the vote against a pretty weak Labour

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leader in Ed Miliband. What Brexit, the referendum, a bigger referendum

:12:32.:12:36.

of what people thought of Britain. I think if David Cameron had been in

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the position that Theresa May was in now, he would be recalibrating

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policy as well. What is remarkable is that there is much more

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continuity between Theresa May and David Cameron and we are inevitably

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focusing on the differences. I agree with Tim, there you go! I think what

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we're going to see is Nermark double amount of continuity. What she's

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done is get rid of his chums and people she doesn't like and brought

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in her own chums, the way that prime ministers do. What really matters in

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the end is what she does about the economy. We have been through a

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government where George Osborne and Cameron were committed to reducing

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the size of the state in Britain to about the same size as the American

:13:19.:13:22.

state, down to 35%. They said they would get it down today, not an

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emergency measure, but that was how it was going to stay. As a result,

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public services have been absolutely cut-throat across-the-board, in

:13:33.:13:38.

those Schalke, the NHS and is a lot of fields. -- cut right across the

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board in the NHS and those areas. Is she a greater evil or a lesser evil?

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You were no fan of Cameron. I think they're very much on the same track.

:13:50.:13:51.

They are considerably to the right. Cameron and Osborne had a much more

:13:52.:14:06.

relaxed the near. They were much harder than Mrs Thatcher. Their cuts

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have been much more profound than anything that Margaret Thatcher

:14:11.:14:15.

thought she could begin to do. I think that will continue. That's

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nonsense. It's too early to judge where Theresa May is going to go on

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economic policy. One of the most interesting interventions we have

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had since Brexit was from the Thatcherite minister Sajid Javid,

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who said we should be boring 20 billion extra a year to put into

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infrastructure and housing, to make the northern powerhouse real, a

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central project of George Osborne. That hasn't gone. What has happened,

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which is where Emily is guilty of a bit of exaggeration, all that has

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happened was that Theresa May has said that the northern powerhouse

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was too focused on Manchester. But she has taken these phrases that we

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have been fed on for the last few years... The first thing she said

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was, austerity will be looked at again. The northern powerhouse is

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not about the North, it is about all the country. That is

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differentiation. It isn't. If the government of Britain didn't respond

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to one of the most historic vote in our nation's history and recalibrate

:15:25.:15:29.

policy, it would be wrong. So does that mean that all the people who

:15:30.:15:35.

voted for David Cameron, voted him into power in 2015, didn't like his

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policies? I don't think so. Who knows? It's always a choice. People

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go for what they think is the most competent person. The idea there is

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going to be a great shift... We had a very good speech from her on the

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threshold of number ten talking about the poor, talking about

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opportunity. Mac but we have been there before. It is exactly what

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David Cameron did in the run-up to taking power. The problem is that

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she hasn't even tested. She's arrived without any kind of election

:16:11.:16:14.

or selection. She hasn't been grilled by the likes of you, so that

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when she comes up with a policy like grammar schools, she hasn't had the

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chance to test it out. I think she's making mistake after mistake. The

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grammar schools one is going to be a big embarrassment, because there are

:16:30.:16:36.

a lot of Conservatives who know that most people get the School of their

:16:37.:16:40.

choice. After grammar schools, 80% will not. What came on Monday was

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timed to perfection. That wasn't just accident. Who knows? David

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Cameron is going through emotional turmoil, I imagine. He won a general

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election a year ago. He has been humbled. He is a sensible enough

:17:00.:17:06.

politician to know that his successor needs to have her own

:17:07.:17:11.

agenda. I think what we are seeing is a review of policy that is

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necessary, but on some of the key fundamentals, getting our deficit

:17:18.:17:21.

under control, passing tax cuts to the low paid, ensuring the education

:17:22.:17:27.

system serves the disadvantaged, she is more of a camera and politician

:17:28.:17:36.

than a Thatcherite one. -- a Cameron politician. This is the one thing

:17:37.:17:40.

that I worry about with Theresa May. The defining Wallasey she was

:17:41.:17:45.

associated with was control of immigration, but when she had the

:17:46.:17:50.

opportunity to deliver the means of controlling immigration by leaving

:17:51.:17:56.

the EU, she hesitated. She has every reason to feel resentment against

:17:57.:17:59.

David Cameron. The legacy he's left her is appalling. The Brexit

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conundrum is dreadful and will overwhelm her government. At the

:18:06.:18:11.

same time as the state of the NHS, and a number of other problems on

:18:12.:18:15.

her plate. He really has left her with some pretty bad stuff, and I

:18:16.:18:21.

wouldn't be surprised if she was grinding her teeth. Nick Watt has

:18:22.:18:26.

slipped back into the hot seat. What will happen with this? Laura

:18:27.:18:30.

Kuenssberg, political editor of the BBC, is reporting that a source is

:18:31.:18:38.

saying that both the Chinese and US governments will approve the

:18:39.:18:44.

Hinckley power deal, which should be improved tomorrow. Sources close to

:18:45.:18:49.

the deal are saying that the Chinese are unlikely to accept conditions

:18:50.:18:51.

unless they get a guarantee over their hope that they will have the

:18:52.:18:57.

right to be the sole builder of that second nuclear power plant at

:18:58.:19:02.

Bradwell. Theresa May called a halt to the Hinkley C points decision,

:19:03.:19:06.

which was one of the first things she did as Prime Minister. If she

:19:07.:19:10.

had stopped it, that would have left you a crisis with Britain's

:19:11.:19:16.

relations with China. But she couldn't just leave it how it was.

:19:17.:19:22.

So she is accept in it with some conditions. Talking about

:19:23.:19:28.

continuity, you mentioned the men was coming out with Lord Finkelstein

:19:29.:19:32.

on David Cameron. What will that bring? Lord Finkelstein is a

:19:33.:19:38.

familiar and friendly face in the Newsnight Village, and will be

:19:39.:19:41.

helping David Cameron with his memoirs. David Cameron takes pride

:19:42.:19:47.

in his first from Oxford, so why would he need help with the writing?

:19:48.:19:52.

I think he realises it will be a mammoth task, so why not have one of

:19:53.:19:57.

the UK's finest political writers helping out? David Cameron has

:19:58.:20:01.

clearly been thinking about these memoirs for some time. He hasn't

:20:02.:20:09.

done a Tony Benn notepad under the table in the Cabinet room, but

:20:10.:20:14.

clearly he has been doing some work on these memoirs. Thank you.

:20:15.:20:18.

When the 27 EU countries gather for their first post-Brexit vote

:20:19.:20:21.

summit this weekend, it will be tempting

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Indeed, it's what the European Commission President

:20:24.:20:26.

Jean Claude Juncker struck a slightly elegiaic note today,

:20:27.:20:29.

as he acknowledged in his State of the Union Address that Brexit

:20:30.:20:32.

was a blow for the Union, and pressed for more integration

:20:33.:20:34.

TRANSLATION: The European Union is currently not in top condition.

:20:35.:20:39.

The number of areas where we come together, spontaneously

:20:40.:20:42.

The number of areas where we collaborate in

:20:43.:20:47.

Too often, interests that are exclusively

:20:48.:20:52.

But how much solidarity actually exists within the bloc?

:20:53.:20:58.

Divisions are opening up between those who want Britain to be

:20:59.:21:01.

treated harshly and those prepared to give a bit of leeway.

:21:02.:21:03.

The same divisions perhaps reveal where our European neighbours

:21:04.:21:06.

themselves stand on that critical issue of freedom of movement.

:21:07.:21:10.

When thinking about what the rest of the EU wants from us,

:21:11.:21:19.

We will be dealing with 27 states, each with different priorities.

:21:20.:21:29.

So what can we say about what they will want?

:21:30.:21:32.

Well, first, we know Ireland is going to be very important.

:21:33.:21:36.

It's an EU member so exposed to us that it's desperate

:21:37.:21:39.

Lots of our other close trading partners, like Germany,

:21:40.:21:45.

are also likely to want to minimise the disruption of Brexit.

:21:46.:21:48.

Donald Tusk, the European Council President, is also a pragmatist.

:21:49.:21:51.

But Francois Hollande of France is in another camp.

:21:52.:21:55.

We have neighbours who'd quite like to give us a kicking

:21:56.:21:58.

Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European

:21:59.:22:01.

But there are other blocs with their own Brexit agendas.

:22:02.:22:06.

The Baltics and Finland, understandably, see security

:22:07.:22:10.

We are one of Europe's big military powers,

:22:11.:22:14.

and hardline on Moscow, so defence co-operation might become

:22:15.:22:18.

We might also become a pawn in internal EU arguments.

:22:19.:22:24.

For example, the southern states, often slightly misleadingly called

:22:25.:22:29.

the "Club Med" countries, are lobbying for a change

:22:30.:22:33.

Next month, Matteo Renzi in Italy faces a constitutional referendum.

:22:34.:22:41.

Lithuania is going to hold a general election.

:22:42.:22:46.

Then, later this year, Romania will hold one too.

:22:47.:22:49.

Francois Hollande looks likely to lose a forthcoming French

:22:50.:22:55.

Angela Merkel faces a general election by next autumn.

:22:56.:23:03.

So it's a negotiation with 27 countries, some of whom have local

:23:04.:23:08.

fixations, some of whom may change leaders midway,

:23:09.:23:11.

and may in fact win power on pledges about Brexit.

:23:12.:23:14.

what shape any European deal will take.

:23:15.:23:27.

Joining me here in the studio is Alexander Stubb, the former

:23:28.:23:29.

And in Strasbourg, where Mr Juncker made his speech today,

:23:30.:23:34.

is the Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan.

:23:35.:23:38.

Thank you both very much indeed for being with us. It is interesting.

:23:39.:23:44.

Juncker has insisted this is not going to be a summit about Brexit.

:23:45.:23:47.

Are they really not going to talk about it?

:23:48.:23:52.

Of course they will. Usually when you say you are not talking about

:23:53.:23:58.

something, it is what you are going to talk about. Then there will be a

:23:59.:24:04.

process for the future of Europe, because I think Brexit is a tough

:24:05.:24:08.

lesson to learn for all European leaders, and they are trying to suss

:24:09.:24:12.

out what happened. How long do you think Brexit will take? It will be a

:24:13.:24:20.

long process. Five to ten years. The unravelling of the British Empire

:24:21.:24:24.

took a long time. To try to take yourself out of these you when you

:24:25.:24:31.

are talking of over 100,000 pages of secondary legislation, it does not

:24:32.:24:35.

happen fast. I am in London for a week to try to figure out if Brexit

:24:36.:24:42.

means Brexit, what does Brexit mean? I do think anybody knows. Five to

:24:43.:24:46.

ten years is not something that happens briefly after Christmas. It

:24:47.:24:52.

is a process after an event. When we get back Southern tree, that is when

:24:53.:24:57.

we begin to diversion. When we leave, all of our regulations are

:24:58.:25:01.

still in place. Then we can choose which ones we want to keep and which

:25:02.:25:07.

ones we don't. What we want is the tightest relationship with our

:25:08.:25:11.

European friends in terms of security cooperation, military

:25:12.:25:15.

alliance, open markets, compatible with being a fully sovereign country

:25:16.:25:20.

who makes its own laws, like Canada and the US. But you would not

:25:21.:25:28.

disagree with that time frame? Brexit as a legal fact will come

:25:29.:25:33.

into effect when British laws are against supreme in our own

:25:34.:25:37.

territory. There is a timescale there. I think everybody accepts, as

:25:38.:25:43.

Geva hushed output yesterday, we could not have another election.

:25:44.:25:51.

Brexit will come into effect by 2019, at the latest. We still have

:25:52.:25:57.

quite a lot of assimilated EU acts, and that is when we will decide

:25:58.:26:01.

which ones to keep. We can do that with the consent and the approval of

:26:02.:26:08.

our European friends. We want to avoid acting unilaterally or

:26:09.:26:11.

precipitously. That is exactly the word. There are many within that

:26:12.:26:16.

block watching to see what happens with freedom of movement who don't

:26:17.:26:19.

really want it any more themselves. That is one of the difficult issues.

:26:20.:26:25.

One of the big endgames is going to be the internal market. Second,

:26:26.:26:31.

linked to that, the freedom of movement. And third, how much that

:26:32.:26:37.

will cost. Does freedom of movement have to break? It is one of the

:26:38.:26:42.

fundamental freedoms of the EU. The UK was one of the only countries to

:26:43.:26:49.

go for free -- true freedom of movement in 2004. A lot of others

:26:50.:26:55.

went for a transitional period. It is a Catch-22 situation for other EU

:26:56.:27:00.

leaders. Ritz did their part, then suffered through Brexit. If freedom

:27:01.:27:06.

of movement will not disappear, we have to acknowledge that we will not

:27:07.:27:10.

be part of the single market, and that all the ministers coming up

:27:11.:27:15.

with various interpretations are at odds with each other, let alone the

:27:16.:27:20.

rest of the EU. That was to you, Dan. I'm sorry, I cannot see the

:27:21.:27:29.

studio! We are going to have access to the single market. Virtually the

:27:30.:27:33.

whole world has access to the single market. If you look at the back of a

:27:34.:27:38.

smartphone, it says, designed in California, made in China. Neither

:27:39.:27:44.

of those states have any agreement with the EU. Whether we can trade is

:27:45.:27:50.

not the issue, it is whether we are subject to the same regime. There

:27:51.:27:54.

may be some specific businesses and sectors where it suits them to be

:27:55.:27:59.

part of the same regime, but for the vast majority, it may be better to

:28:00.:28:04.

not apply those rules to our domestic commerce and industry. Is

:28:05.:28:10.

it not a problem that, listening to conversations between David Davis

:28:11.:28:14.

and Theresa May, you see that no one really understands the contours of

:28:15.:28:20.

what Brexit is. Different comments about the single market over ten

:28:21.:28:24.

each other, and junior ministers don't seem to have a clue. It is

:28:25.:28:29.

pretty clear that we will be outside the common external tariff. The

:28:30.:28:33.

advantage of Brexit is we will be able to have free trade agreements

:28:34.:28:39.

with China and India and others. It is in our interests for the EU to be

:28:40.:28:44.

prosperous. Alexander Stubb, do you want Europe to give us concessions?

:28:45.:28:50.

Is it in their interest to do this nicely? I think Brexit is a blues -

:28:51.:28:57.

lose proposition, unfortunately. I think it is in the interests of all

:28:58.:29:03.

of us to make this divorce as amicable as possible. We are going

:29:04.:29:07.

to have similar rules and regulations. This is the future.

:29:08.:29:12.

Look at technological advancement. My kids are going to be printing

:29:13.:29:17.

their sneakers on 3-D printers. There will not be trade rules in

:29:18.:29:23.

between. There is going to be a very long, cumbersome and difficult

:29:24.:29:27.

process for the EU, which we will talk about for the next ten years.

:29:28.:29:29.

Thank you very much indeed. A paediatric pathologist

:29:30.:29:33.

in Northern Ireland has resigned over interventions

:29:34.:29:35.

by Northern Ireland's Attorney General on abortion laws surrounding

:29:36.:29:37.

fatal foetal abnormality. Dr Caroline Gannon investigated

:29:38.:29:43.

the deaths of babies, including She said the final straw was having

:29:44.:29:48.

to advise a couple to use a picnic cooler bag to return their baby's

:29:49.:29:54.

remains to Northern Ireland following an abortion

:29:55.:30:01.

they were made to have in England. The 1967 Abortion Act,

:30:02.:30:04.

which established legal abortion, has never applied in Northern

:30:05.:30:06.

Ireland. Abortion is only allowed

:30:07.:30:09.

in Northern Ireland in cases Fatal foetal abnormalities,

:30:10.:30:12.

rape and incest are not circumstances in which abortions can

:30:13.:30:16.

be performed legally. Last year, a High court judge ruled

:30:17.:30:21.

the ban on terminations in instances of sexual crime or fatal foetal

:30:22.:30:25.

abnormalities were incompatable But Attorney General John Larkin

:30:26.:30:27.

appealed against that ruling. Dr Gannon said her position had

:30:28.:30:36.

been made untenable, and that the interventions by Mr

:30:37.:30:38.

Larkin had proved a tipping point. Joining us now from Belfast

:30:39.:30:45.

is Caroline Gannon, former paedatric pathologist who

:30:46.:30:47.

has just resigned from her job. We appreciate you joining us. Can

:30:48.:30:56.

you try and explain a little better than I did the emotional trigger

:30:57.:31:01.

which really lead to you feeling you had to step down? I think you

:31:02.:31:06.

explained it very well. It has become increasingly difficult over

:31:07.:31:10.

the last 18 months. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also

:31:11.:31:15.

the stillbirth ruling, that we have a situation here where stillbirth

:31:16.:31:19.

can be reported to the coroner and an autopsy carried out by Kara

:31:20.:31:22.

O'Neill legislation without any input from the parents. -- coronial

:31:23.:31:34.

the deflation. They have no say when they get their baby's body back, for

:31:35.:31:38.

example. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also the

:31:39.:31:42.

stillbirth ruling. Over the last 18 months I have found that I have

:31:43.:31:49.

become increasingly, mice by these rulings, which has had a big impact

:31:50.:31:53.

on the work I do for families. Just explain to us the couple who were

:31:54.:31:58.

not allowed to have their dangerously ill foetus terminated in

:31:59.:32:04.

Ireland, what happened there? They had received a diagnosis of fatal

:32:05.:32:12.

faecal abnormalities and they wanted a termination of pregnancy and they

:32:13.:32:16.

had to go to England for that. This was very much a wanted baby, a

:32:17.:32:21.

planned baby, and they were very distressed that this would go ahead.

:32:22.:32:27.

This was part of their family, this was their baby and they didn't want

:32:28.:32:34.

to leave him in Northern Ireland. It was only through the sheer luck that

:32:35.:32:40.

they were speaking to a very experienced midwife who knew me

:32:41.:32:43.

personally and she put them in touch with me so I could give them

:32:44.:32:48.

information about how best to bring the body home and how to preserve

:32:49.:32:52.

the tissue though that we could get all the information they would need.

:32:53.:32:56.

I'm sure there are other families out there who did not access that

:32:57.:33:00.

information and had to leave their baby behind in England. Just give us

:33:01.:33:05.

a sense, do you feel, and you weren't worried closely with this,

:33:06.:33:09.

that abortion laws have become more rigorous in Northern Ireland in

:33:10.:33:10.

recent years? Very much so. I started working in

:33:11.:33:17.

Northern Ireland as a consultant in 2003 and bank then we did get some

:33:18.:33:21.

babies coming into our department where the families had had an

:33:22.:33:29.

induction of labour because of a lethal abnormality. That seemed to

:33:30.:33:33.

stop completely in about 2008. So we do seem to be becoming more strict

:33:34.:33:40.

over the rules here and I do feel it is interfering with family life

:33:41.:33:43.

quite significantly. I think parents should have the right to make a

:33:44.:33:47.

decision about their babies and they have been denied that, both in

:33:48.:33:53.

stillbirths and in babies where they opt to end the pregnancy early.

:33:54.:33:56.

There was this ruling by a High Court judge in Belfast that some of

:33:57.:34:03.

the parts of the law contravenes international human rights. Why

:34:04.:34:07.

didn't that go through? There is no will install mod for that to go

:34:08.:34:11.

through. There seems to be very little public debate about the

:34:12.:34:15.

impact this is having on families at an individual family level. The

:34:16.:34:19.

impression I'm getting from the media is that this is being

:34:20.:34:22.

portrayed as an all or nothing situation, that either no

:34:23.:34:27.

terminations can be carried out or if we say yes to terminations for

:34:28.:34:32.

lethal abnormalities, that opens the door to every other type of

:34:33.:34:35.

termination of pregnancy. We're talking about termination of

:34:36.:34:41.

pregnancy in a very specific circumstance, where the baby has an

:34:42.:34:45.

abnormality that is not compatible with life, and it's only a very

:34:46.:34:48.

small number of cases each year. It's just that one particular

:34:49.:34:52.

scenario that we are looking at. This is not going to become abortion

:34:53.:34:56.

on demand but that is the way it's being presented in the media and

:34:57.:35:01.

that is the way that our MPs in Stormont are behaving. When you

:35:02.:35:04.

explained to a couple what they would have to do, because they were

:35:05.:35:09.

not allowed to have their baby terminated with you in Northern

:35:10.:35:11.

Ireland, what was their response to that? I don't want to get into too

:35:12.:35:17.

many details, because obviously the family deserve confidentiality. But

:35:18.:35:23.

the father seemed to deal with this by taking a step back and being

:35:24.:35:27.

quite detached about the whole thing. I'm sure he wasn't coming he

:35:28.:35:33.

was very distressed and upset. I have to say, the conversation, I

:35:34.:35:37.

deal with this everyday, I deal with postmortem's everyday, but that was

:35:38.:35:41.

quite simply the most upsetting conversation I'd had in 16 years as

:35:42.:35:46.

a consultant. To talk to a father about what size of picnic cooler we

:35:47.:35:52.

would need to estimate the size that his baby might be, to determine the

:35:53.:35:56.

size of the cooler and to explain about keeping the tissues at four

:35:57.:36:00.

degrees Celsius so we could preserve them the best we could for genetic

:36:01.:36:04.

testing when the baby got back to us in Northern Ireland, it really was

:36:05.:36:08.

quite appalling and quite surreal to have to discuss that. I just found

:36:09.:36:14.

it extremely difficult. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks for joining

:36:15.:36:15.

us this evening. Thank you. The Attorney General's office

:36:16.:36:19.

told the BBC today that the law on abortion is currently under

:36:20.:36:21.

consideration by Court of Appeal. We're going to take you back to that

:36:22.:36:32.

news that has broken whilst we have been on air, we understand there has

:36:33.:36:38.

been a decision on Hinckley. At the moment there is only one source

:36:39.:36:42.

giving as this but the Times has got that the French claim the nuclear

:36:43.:36:47.

plant has been approved at Hinkley Point. Just take us through, Nick,

:36:48.:36:54.

for those who missed it earlier, what state of the deal we think we

:36:55.:37:00.

are at with Hinkley Point now? The Times are citing a report by

:37:01.:37:04.

Bloomberg News saying that EDF, the French energy giant meant to be

:37:05.:37:10.

partnering on this, they have been informed that this deal is going

:37:11.:37:13.

ahead, but crucially there will be conditions, and the big question is

:37:14.:37:18.

that it looks like the conditions may be attached to the Bradwell

:37:19.:37:23.

plant, the second plant in Essex, which China is hoping to build on

:37:24.:37:26.

its very own. As we've been reporting in recent weeks, some of

:37:27.:37:34.

Theresa May's chief aides have voiced concerns about Chinese

:37:35.:37:37.

security and whether they should have sole control over the building

:37:38.:37:47.

of a nuclear power plant. We should say the government is denying any

:37:48.:37:50.

deal has been made, but they would, wouldn't they, at this point? Tim,

:37:51.:37:57.

what would you make of it or understand by this? You always

:37:58.:37:59.

expected Hinkley Point to go through? No, one of the interesting

:38:00.:38:05.

things in the Times report is that the government are insisting that

:38:06.:38:10.

the EDF, the French board of the EDF have two re approved the can deal

:38:11.:38:16.

under new conditions. It was quite a narrowly balanced judgment last time

:38:17.:38:20.

and it could be that with the new conditions the French opt out and

:38:21.:38:25.

therefore it won't be Britons saying to China pulling out of this deal,

:38:26.:38:30.

they're trying to get France to pull out. I'm personally disappointed if

:38:31.:38:34.

it does go ahead. Hinkley Point is a commitment for the British energy

:38:35.:38:39.

payer, the average householder, to really be paying above the odds for

:38:40.:38:43.

energy costs for decades ahead. It could saddle British industry with

:38:44.:38:48.

higher energy costs for a long time. But presumably without it that would

:38:49.:38:51.

have meant we're not going to invest in nuclear power? On this scale.

:38:52.:38:56.

There are other nuclear models. This is the bet I think we're taking if

:38:57.:39:01.

we approve Hinkley Point. We're betting that technology that exist

:39:02.:39:06.

now we will still be committed to 43040 years, when actually there is

:39:07.:39:11.

an awful lot of evidence that solar energy for example, more portable,

:39:12.:39:14.

smaller, nuclear energy is, might actually be much cheaper in ten or

:39:15.:39:19.

20 years' time, so we will be saddled with this providing 7% of

:39:20.:39:24.

British energy, when actually our economic competitors could be using

:39:25.:39:27.

new technologies that allow their industry and consumers to be paying

:39:28.:39:32.

much cheaper bills. If this is the decision, I think it's quite

:39:33.:39:36.

regrettable. We will take you quickly through the papers, which I

:39:37.:39:40.

am looking for the first time too. The Times has this inquiry into

:39:41.:39:47.

police over the 1980s clash with miners. The Telegraph has got

:39:48.:39:56.

"Doubts over prostate treatment". Thousands of men told they could

:39:57.:40:02.

avoid surgery affects the Guardian leading with the BBC forced to

:40:03.:40:05.

reveal salaries of star names. That's it for tonight but we leave

:40:06.:40:06.

you with this. French football

:40:07.:40:13.

legend Michel Platini, who said farewell today as President

:40:14.:40:14.

of the European sport's governing body, Uefa, to warm applause

:40:15.:40:17.

from their congress. It didn't seem to matter that he's

:40:18.:40:19.

been barred from football-related activities for four years,

:40:20.:40:21.

following that unfortunate business with Sepp Blatter

:40:22.:40:23.

and 2 million swiss francs. Hello there. The weather is going to

:40:24.:41:16.

get back to normal as we end the week, but one more very warm day to

:41:17.:41:20.

come for some of us, particularly seeing sunshine from the word go

:41:21.:41:22.

across southern

:41:23.:41:23.

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