12/12/2016 Newsnight

How much ground do they share with the nationalists of the 1930s?

Because a lot of Europeans, you know, are conditioned, in a way,

like border, like identity, of being proud of oneself -

immediately a reflex kicks

We ask if they represent fringe interests, or a real threat

to the old order of Europe's liberal democracies.

Newsnight learns the committee with oversight into

Where does that leave questions of ethics and foreign policy?

And the British farmers that are filling the post-Brexit gap left

Clearly we haven't got enough UK workers, so we need to look to

Not because we're taking jobs away, but

Tonight, we look at the rise of the so-called

They call themselves Identitarians - groups that are unafraid to talk

about the need for national borders and cultural difference,

who fear Islamisation in their countries and call

They are patriots - wary of being seen as fascist,

and reject the idea that this is a return to the

So this evening, we ask how we should view the rise

Or the beginning of the end of Europe's liberal democracies?

This is the first in our series of films this week asking

if populism is fomenting a revolution.

Gabriel Gatehouse starts us off in Vienna.

Governments falling to populist revolt, old certainties

A union based on half a century of stability

This has been a year of centrifugal forces.

Of mainstream politics moving towards the fringes and of fringe

groups battling to lay claim to a new centre.

Today, Austria is on the periphery of world events.

But we're here to meet some people who want to make

They call themselves the Identitarian movement

and they hold views that many would consider beyond

You don't want us to film the way in?

I'll tell him when he can start to film.

But the parameters of public discourse are shifting.

This is a group that is in the process of coming

Fortunately we have now some younger members who are very

affiliated with the media, cutting videos, internet and so on.

At the moment, we are even on the way to developing an app.

It's an app for patriots where you can find the other guys

That's really something that happens.

The Identitarians are in some ways different

They disavow violence, they are articulate and tech savvy.

They've got their own TV studio here.

They broadcast live with fellow travellers in other European

countries and put together videos of their publicity stunts.

Earlier this month they scaled the statue of the Habsburg Empire's

Maria Theresa and dressed her up in a giant burqa.

No prizes then for guessing their views on Islam and immigration.

Those people who came here illegally

especially in the refugee crisis, they need to be sent back home.

You would be sending them into a war zone.

A lot of them didn't come from Syria to begin

with and the others, for the others, I think

we should create zones, and areas around Europe.

You know that's got like really scary overtones, especially

Zones and areas where you put people.

The United Nations plan to create safe zones.

You're automatically making the association is also shoving

part of the problem, because a lot of Europeans

are conditioned, when they hear some words, like people,

like culture, like border, like identity, of being proud

of oneself - immediately, kind of a reflex kicks in.

And creates this Nazi reflex, you know?

And people are really fed up with that.

We left their TV studio and moved on to a local cafe.

If they are not Nazis, I wondered, then what are they?

I ran them through a check list of typical far right issues.

How do you feel about people from different ethnic backgrounds

Do you think that's odd that you don't have any gay friends?

But do you think it's odd that you don't have any?

You don't think Jews are running the world in a secret conspiracy?

Ironically, it is the Jews who are most worried about

We have a huge exodus from France, for instance.

Jews are fleeing Europe because of Islamisation.

And so the conversation turns back to Muslim immigration.

Islamophobia is the new anti-Semitism, and the Identitarians

see themselves as part of a broader cultural insurgency.

We are a European movement, we exist in forms...

We exist in Slovenia, we exist in the Czech Republic.

We are overcoming old-style nationalism, chauvinistic

nationalism, which are attacking other European countries.

We think we have a European culture and today, in the 21st century,

We want a Europe that maintains the national differences that

secures our borders, that is strong in the outside but

Would you like Austria to leave the European Union?

I don't think at the moment we need to talk about it because Austria

I think we can take over this whole system and turn

Austria's Identitarian movement has only a few hundred activists.

In last week's presidential election, voters rejected

the candidate from the far right Freedom Party, albeit

Across Europe, right-wing populist parties are challenging

the old duopoly of the centre-right and the centre-left.

Nowhere is that challenge more stark than in France,

where the ideas of the Identitarian movement are supported by a growing

number of influential public intellectuals.

I am on my way to meet one of these people who provides the intellectual

underpinnings for the Identitarians here in France.

He is a man who was once a senior adviser to former

Patrick Buisson sees the older European order of facing a revolt

by a younger generation who are beginning to reject the

And in this world view, Brexit was a tipping point.

Scarred by recent terrorist attacks, France is increasingly preoccupied

by the existential question of what it means to be French.

In Lyon, as in other cities, people are leading

And as the dream of multiculturalism loses its shine, the politics

Generation Identitaire have their headquarters

in a bar down one of the city's medieval sidestreets.

They call themselves not activists but militants and claim to have 2000

fee-paying members in more than a dozen cities across France.

Twice a week they fan out across the city distributing hot

soup and winter clothes to the homeless, or the European

In the summers, they organise youth camps, where they train and exchange

ideas with other like-minded people from across Europe,

including Martin Sellner, the Austrian we met earlier.

Generation Identitaire are not directly affiliated

But they are emboldened by the prospect of a Le Pen presidency.

And their rejection of multiculturalism goes

further than a proposal to simply limit immigration.

What they are proposing is, in effect, ethnic cleansing.

They are French, they are as French as you are, they were born here.

The more extreme views of the Identitarians are not echoed -

officially, at least - even by the kaleidoscope of far

right parties now vying for the centre ground.

In France, the Netherlands, in Belgium, in Italy, and Austria.

Martin Sellner and his friends are a small minority.

We see ourselves as a patriotic avant-garde, who is pushing...

Of what you can say and what you can think.

Little by little, these ideas are being fed

Not new ideas, but old ones, ideas that many thought had been

Joining me now from Hungary is the sociologist and commentator

journalist and researcher for the Quilliam Foundation.

It is nice to hear from you both. These are not new ideas, but old

ones. Do you think this is a new movement or something you have seen

before? It's a renaissance of some former, but there is a new

dimension. Increasingly we have educated people across all classes

and all social backgrounds joining far right movements, populist

movements and the more militant ones. What we are seeing is

effectively a full-blown far right renaissance across Europe, or across

the world. Is that something that scares you? Definitely. I do see a

clear connection between the populist far right spreading hateful

ideologies and the more militant far right, increasing the attacks are

happening across Europe, far right terrorism is becoming a bigger

threat at the moment than jihadist terrorism and we have seen attacks

across the entire continent. Is that overblown? That is a hysterical

reaction. We are continuing to talk about it is just like Hitler, the

1930s, and we are confusing a small number of young right-wing activists

with the broader populist impulse that is enveloping Europe which has

got positive aspects and negative aspects. But there is a danger that

we seem to... INAUDIBLE In many respects these people are

the mirror image... INAUDIBLE We have terrible sound problems. We

will try to get back to you. Identitarians, or what you want to

call them, they claim they have been forced to accept an erosion of their

culture and laws, and boundaries. No matter what you call this, you prove

their point, you take things, this liberal society has decreed taboo

and you do not let anyone express their fears. The problem about this

becoming to do with anti-Muslim resentments, for example,

effectively it has spread into both the militant far right movements and

exactly the narratives that Islamist extremists are spreading, that the

West is at war with Islam. We are seeing this cultural war. Terrorists

who killed 70 people on the island in 2011, and the narratives of... We

are seeing this turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy into a

global civil war between Muslims and non-Muslims. I'm going to try and go

to Frank. The concern is, Frank, that you are missing what is

essentially the return of fascism, that this is near Nazism by any

other name. -- Neo. When you think of what the 1930s and the Fascists

represented and you compare that to INAUDIBLE

... The uncertainty. There's a real danger. A real danger drywall. -- a

real danger of crying wolf. I'm sorry, we are not getting a good

enough line. Frank has broken about the promiscuous populism which

allows the elite who have been guilty of crop politicians or

undemocratic institutions, or badly bodies who have had too much power

-- corrupt politicians. There is something in that? Definitely, but

finger-pointing and Scepovic -- scapegoating is the wrong approach.

I agree that much of this is rooted in a deep disappointment of the

establishment, not addressing the problems that the marginalised

majorities are facing. Is it too late? How do you see these

movements? Gabriel looked at the movements in Vienna and Paris. The

respondents at the moment, is this a niche interest or the beginning of a

revolution? -- small movements at the moment. We are seeing online

hate crimes and support for the Alt Right in the United States and in

France and Austria. We are seeing a sharp rise. This is becoming more

and more mainstream, something we need to address and I would say it

is like having two sides of the same coin. Islamist extremists and the

far right Kameni we don't address both of them they will both get rich

and rich -- and the far right, and if we don't address both of them

they will both get rich and rich. It is just a matter of time until we

tossed a coin. What will happen by the end of the decade? I hope that

this cultural war that both extremists and both identity

movements are speaking about is not turning into reality, but right now

I'm concerned by the developments on this side of the Atlantic and also

what is happening with Donald Trump. Thanks for joining us. Apologies for

not being able to get a clearer line from Budapest.

Britain's arms deals with Saudi Arabia have long been

a source of contention - many accuse the country

of using those weapons to commit war crimes in Yemen,

a country described by the DEC today as at breaking point.

Earlier in the year, we revealed that a report

by a parliamentary committee into Saudi arms sales was watered

down to be less critical of the Saudi regime.

Now, this programme has learned the committee with oversight

Who scrutinises the arms deals, then?

Our political editor Nicholas Watt has the story.

The vexed question of British arms exports has been brought into sharp

relief by the conflict in Yemen. Britain is continuing to supply arms

to Saudi Arabia which has been accused of violating international

human rights laws as it supports the Yemeni government infighting Shia

rebels. Over the autumn, details of a dispute about the arms sales

amongst senior MPs was late. -- was leaked. It was split down the

middle. You were party to material being improperly leaked out of the

committee proceedings which with a complex committee structure, made

the conduct of the committee and the trust of the committee to actually

be able to be a place where you can scratch out the issues at stake,

without them being relayed, out to the media, producing a very one eyed

view, on a single issue. Without the ability to consider the whole

situation and that make the -- made the work of the committee or most

impossible. One person called for the suspension of the arms deals.

The second set said it would be wrong to cancel supplies until

evidence had been at that. The row has now effectively killed off the

committee after the impasse meant they could not produce an agreed

report. The committee is of the view that with the machinery of

government off the hook, it makes sense of the new select committee on

international trade which oversees the Department for international

trade within which arms export licensing will set, that they should

oversee the exercise now. One member of Crispin Blunt's select committee

disagrees. I have the greatest respect for Crispin Blunt, but on

this issue I don't share his view. The arms control is a very

particular issue and it goes beyond just trade and we need to take into

is a consideration human rights and foreign policy and a range of issues

that need to be looked into for what is a very particular set of issues.

Members of other select committees also have concerns. We know there

are individuals who are not happy with the proposal to suspend arms to

Yemen and we have seen the government, despite the Foreign

Secretary's comments in recent days, rolling back on those and taking a

very pro-Saudi Arabian line. We still haven't got answers on those

allegations of atrocities against civilians. It seems to me that we

need a strong committee to hold the government's feet to the fire and

that requires the participation of all four constituency committees.

The current chairman of the committee on arms export controls,

whose draft report called for the suspension of arms to Saudi Arabia,

appears to be resigned to his fate. There needs to be scrutiny of arms

sales and exports and this was a good format for that to happen, and

in what ever Department that will fall under in the new parliament,

the new Department of structure, I think that we need to make sure that

some form of cake exists. Newsnight has learned that a new structure has

almost been agreed amongst MPs, the new international trade select

committee overseeing the work of Liam Fox's Department will take the

lead in overseeing arms export licences with members from other

select committees contributing, although in a less formal way. We

might have people succumbed to another committee and in a cake type

structure, from other committees, that will overview this or maybe

they will get seconded at moments when we are looking at international

arms sales in particular. The model is open at the moment, and we will

see what colleagues prefer and what the ideas are and inevitably we will

arrive at a conclusion at some point. Angus MacNeil says human

rights will Steve be one of the main concerns as he scrutinised is --

will still be one of the main concerns as he scrutinises it. I'm

an SNP MP and if there is any role of undermining and downplaying human

rights aspect, within the SNP and the SNP membership, my, will be felt

very strongly and so that will not be happening. Not least the voice of

Nicola Sturgeon who might be quite strong, as well. Boris Johnson, is

comments that Saudi Arabia have been fighting proxy wars in Yemen, but

Parliamentary oversight on arms export licences will soon be largely

in new hands -- his comments. America has an estimated

11 million immigrants living illegally in the US -

a number that has broadly stabilised For many, that number represents

a problem to be solved. But within America, the phenomenon

of "sanctuary cities" has grown up. They represent around three dozen

cities that have turned a blind eye to those there illegally -

and refuse to deploy their own immigration enforcement

officers to deport them. They offer, in other words,

a safe space to illegal immigrants. Donald Trump - who campaigned

robustly against illegal immigration on the campaign trail -

has made clear he intends to cancel all federal funding to these cities

in a bid to crack their policy We will end the sanctuary cities

that have resulted in Cities that refuse to cooperate

with federal authorities will not receive taxpayer dollars

and we will work with Congress to pass legislation to protect those

jurisdictions that do And can Donald Trump actually follow

through on his promise Michael Hancock is

the mayor of Denver, I know that Denver like New York,

San Francisco, DC and Chicago is a Sanctuary city. Explain how it

works. Thanks for having me. I want to make it clear Denver never

formally adopted a policy to be a sanctuary city. It is commonly known

in the US there is not a precise definition of what a sanctuary city

is. Some cities have adopted policies, Denver has never adopted a

policy to be a century city. We are an inclusive city, a city of

opportunity that is welcoming and will continue to enforce the laws we

have on our books, but we will not violate the constitutional rights of

individuals and hold them without a warrant to hold them. Let me clarify

this. Would Donald Trump stop you from getting what is it $175 million

of federal money for how he interprets your actions in the city?

We don't know what President-elect Trump macro will do. It is too early

to estimate what his immigration policy with the. Somebody who has

been elected, I know what it means to campaign on something and get

into office and have to govern and the realities may shift. Denver has

never formally adopted a sanctuary city position and we cooperate with

the central government as regards immigration laws. You do not think

his rhetoric on immigration will come true? It is important to

recognise those cities follow the law and Denver follows the law

regarding immigration. We will not do the job of the immigration

control enforcement division. And we will not... We do not have the

policing power or policing manpower to execute those laws so we have to

allow the federal authorities to do that, but we will cooperate with

federal government and enforce the laws as we can. For give me for

coming in but President-elect Trump had a strong mandate on this issue

of stopping illegal immigration. Do you have a duty to start enforcing

it when America has voted for that? It is not the city government's role

to enforce immigration laws. If we arrest someone for violation of our

city doors we will work with federal agencies. The moment we no longer

have a constitutional authority to hold that individual, that they have

satisfied their duty or violation with the city of Denver, we have to

release them and that is where the confusion occurs. Let's get to the

spirit of what you are doing, which is broadly you are a welcoming haven

for illegal immigrants under a President who has made it clear he

does not agree with illegal immigration. You are at odds with

the policy America has chosen. We are a city that is welcoming and

inclusive, we don't believe in separating families needlessly. We

believe in upholding family values and holding people accountable who

violate the law. Somebody working hard, pursuing the opportunity of

freedom and an opportunity of happiness in Denver, we encourage

them to seated legal status but we do not believe in needlessly

separating families and allowing people to remain in the inclusive

city. Would it matter if the money were stopped, if you do not receive

$170 million with the new administration? Along with other

mayors in the country we hope and believe it will not get to that. We

hope and we will work closely with the trumpet administration and

develop a comprehensive path to citizenship for all immigrants and

to allow these folks to be productive residents in our cities.

We know there are illegal immigrants. It is not practical to

think we will deport 11 million people, and to recognise that many

cities including Denver have thrived economically because of the hard

work and dedication of people including immigrants, in our city,

who have participated in the production of our great city. We

believe it is better to work closely with the Trump administration.

Thanks. The Brexit vote has already

begun to affect the way Some are facing a 10% shortfall

in seasonal workers, according to the Farmers Union,

as foreign employees are showing a reluctance to come over

to the UK to find jobs. The industry is using the labour

crisis to rethink the way it works and has introduced automation

into the workplace in ways Here's our technology

editor David Grossman. The carrot business

is all about incentives. What this farm sees as the stick

of Brexit threatens to dry out the supply of EU migrant labour

that it relies on. And so they are turning

to technology to fill the gap. Clearly we haven't got enough UK

workers so we need to look But we haven't got

enough UK workers. If there were enough UK workers,

we wouldn't be having migrants. This is how this farm used

to sort their carrots. 18 migrant workers deciding what can

be Christmas dinner and what is only Now, cameras, lasers,

and computers sort the veg The good news for some firms

who have high levels of migration is that they are actually quite ripe

for new technology so, yes, it will cost some money

and needs upfront investment, but whether it is agriculture,

bits of manufacturing, already you can see that those

sectors are ready for new forms of technology and new forms

of robots, if you like, Much more difficult is those parts

of the economy that have high levels of migration but actually don't look

very ripe for technology. Cleaning, domestic services,

hotel work, for instance. And that is great news

for places like this. It exports farm machinery all over

the world and has never been busier The images from the camera are being

analysed on the on-board computer. Again, this is technology

that is only just ripe, using cameras and computers to do

what only humans were capable of only a couple of years ago,

in this case identifying and removing weeds in

rows of young crops. A typical small model of the in-row

weeder would do the same amount of work as a typical gang of say

30 manual labourers. And although not cheap,

a machine doesn't need It just sits in the shed

until you need it. Well, we seem to be sitting

in a nice place where There has been a trend in any case

over the last few years to go more and more into more technology

on farms, using this And I think it is simply

focusing the mind and Because there may well be

no other alternative. It's not just agriculture

that is looking at automation to get around

a post-Brexit shortage. The international president of UBS,

the parcel delivery firm, says they will now invest more

in robots in the UK than they had But some politicians and employers

are pressing for a return to something like the seasonal

agricultural workers scheme to allow I think there is a lot of interest

in sector-based schemes. They worked pretty well

in agriculture because there you had a large requirement for labour

at a particular point in time. Elsewhere, you need flexibility

in labour, but it is spread throughout the year,

so the idea of having someone, having a group of workers over

for a couple of months is not going to work for sectors like food

processing and hospitality. The British economy

is clearly heading for big However, some economists believe

that automating away our addiction to cheap EU labour could not only

help us survive this change, Anything that can encourage firms

to think more about investing both in new technology and also

in the skills of the existing If we can therefore start

to generate more output. All right, there has to be

an upfront investment cost, but generate more output

without having to rely on these business models,

which mean we have to bring That probably is a healthy place

for the economy to move. There's lots of other debates

about whether or not we should be thinking about changing the numbers

of migrants coming in each year. But purely from the economic

perspective, if we can boost productivity, then the Brexit vote

will actually have had some positive impact in terms

of kick-starting the process. In low-skilled, low-wage industries,

the robots are certainly coming. The questions are, how quickly

and how much will they cost? For big employers of migrant labour,

the technology, the economics And that still adds up to a whole

load of uncertainty. We can take you through the front

pages before we go. Distressing pictures on the front of the

Guardian newspaper, a final call to the world, to save Aleppo. President

Assad loyalist now controlling much of the city. The same sort of

picture in the Independent. We need more than two years to negotiate the

Brexit deal says the Chancellor, a story suggesting he is in favour of

a soft Brexit that could take up to four years. The Daily Telegraph,

Christmas post strike adding to rail misery. This looks at Southern rail

strikes that could find itself joined by a Christmas postal strike

and the Express. An Alzheimer's story.

Before we go tonight, we heard today the news that

weatherman Ian McCaskill, one of the BBC's most recognisable

faces in the '80s and '90s, had died.

He had the special talent of making even a dreary day seem bearable.

We'll leave you with a flavour of his work, the opening

of his Christmas Day forecast in 1987.

You've got to be really unlucky to pull your own cracker and

But at least we'll be lucky with the weather.

And Southport, an almost, but not quite,

incredible six and a half hours of sunshine.

Good evening, less than two weeks away from the big day and no sign of

snow. Plenty of rain on Tuesday the first thing. Spreading northwards

and eastwards and slices of sunshine in between. A