04/01/2017 Newsnight


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04/01/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Is that the low rumble of an earthquake we can hear,

:00:11.:00:14.

rattling the Elysee Palace, shaking up France?

:00:15.:00:18.

Could she really win the Presidential election in 2017?

:00:19.:00:20.

And what on earth would she do if she did?

:00:21.:00:26.

But even if she loses France could be changing direction.

:00:27.:00:28.

We'll try to work out where the country

:00:29.:00:31.

is going and what it means for the rest of us?

:00:32.:00:35.

You to continue to look for work or your benefit

:00:36.:00:49.

The sanctions regime: life for those who've had welfare

:00:50.:00:59.

Ken Loach, the maker of I, Daniel Blake,

:01:00.:01:06.

will be here to discuss whether benefit sanctions have a place.

:01:07.:01:09.

They come from the same background, maybe they went to the same

:01:10.:01:12.

And they work together to build a brilliant company but then at some

:01:13.:01:16.

point they realise they need to start focusing on people

:01:17.:01:18.

who didn't come from the same background as them and did not go

:01:19.:01:21.

to the same university and do not look like them.

:01:22.:01:33.

How the royalty of Silicon Valley are coping in America.

:01:34.:01:37.

We know President Hollande will not be in power after May.

:01:38.:01:42.

What is to be determined is who will replace him.

:01:43.:01:48.

Marine Le Pen of the Front National hopes to pull a Trump-like shock,

:01:49.:01:51.

and to that end, she has been putting flesh on her policy platform

:01:52.:01:54.

The big news is that she's inserted some nuance

:01:55.:01:57.

She's no longer saying France must come out.

:01:58.:02:00.

But she is for change, and even accepting that she'll

:02:01.:02:03.

probably fail to win, France could take a radically

:02:04.:02:05.

Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports.

:02:06.:02:09.

For many French, the Front National, the National Front, and its former

:02:10.:02:15.

leader Jean Marie Le Pen, had become like the baddies in a graphic

:02:16.:02:18.

novel, there to menace, but never to win.

:02:19.:02:22.

But his daughter has sought to rebrand the party, shed its racist

:02:23.:02:30.

I think she has done extremely well in detoxifying,

:02:31.:02:38.

that's the word she uses, the Front National brand and saying,

:02:39.:02:43.

"I'm not an extremist, I do not make nasty

:02:44.:02:49.

jokes about the Holocaust and parties like mine

:02:50.:02:51.

"Look at Ukip, look at Brexit, look at Trump in America".

:02:52.:02:57.

"It is perfectly normal to vote for me,

:02:58.:03:00.

I'm just a politician, except that I'm different from the others".

:03:01.:03:05.

Le Pen's platform unveiled during recent days has a take

:03:06.:03:09.

back control feel to it, restoring sovereignty of

:03:10.:03:13.

the economy, she says, being more protectionist of the territory of

:03:14.:03:16.

France itself, imposing permanent border controls and of monetary

:03:17.:03:23.

policy, reintroducing the franc, albeit pegged to wider European

:03:24.:03:26.

currencies in a kind of new exchange rate mechanism, a more moderate

:03:27.:03:30.

message than some of her recent pronouncements

:03:31.:03:32.

She's not going for hard Frexit, she's trying to explain

:03:33.:03:41.

to the electorate that she wants to renegotiate things with Europe.

:03:42.:03:44.

She is doing this probably because she wants to reach

:03:45.:03:50.

beyond her traditional electoral base.

:03:51.:03:56.

If Marine Le Pen is to win, she has got to leap a whole series

:03:57.:03:59.

of hurdles, from appealing to voters who usually stay at home to racing

:04:00.:04:04.

through a crowded presidential field, and indeed,

:04:05.:04:06.

With the party short of cash, it may seek another loan from

:04:07.:04:13.

Russia, a country the party leader has been reluctant to criticise.

:04:14.:04:20.

The Front National has a storeyed past of aligning themselves

:04:21.:04:22.

Marine Le Pen's stepmother and her father got money

:04:23.:04:29.

They campaigned heavily for Saddam Hussein, saying that he was

:04:30.:04:37.

misunderstood, a bit like Bashar al-Assad today,

:04:38.:04:40.

and a beacon of secularism in the Middle East.

:04:41.:04:43.

And strangely enough, it has not harmed her.

:04:44.:04:49.

Received political opinion suggests she may

:04:50.:04:58.

get to the last two for a second-round vote, as indeed her

:04:59.:05:01.

But it will be very hard for her to clinch victory.

:05:02.:05:06.

But then again, that's received opinion, based on polls,

:05:07.:05:09.

and one French paper announced yesterday that it

:05:10.:05:11.

TRANSLATION: We realise that pollsters did not predict several

:05:12.:05:18.

big events - Brexit in Great Britain, Trump in the US.

:05:19.:05:22.

In France, we have primaries on the right and

:05:23.:05:25.

we didn't expect Nicolas Sarkozy to be eliminated in the first round.

:05:26.:05:28.

We all thought Alain Juppe would win.

:05:29.:05:31.

That's what the polls were telling us.

:05:32.:05:33.

But it was Francois Fillon who won, and nobody

:05:34.:05:35.

Francois Fillon, now leading the polls, is a man of

:05:36.:05:40.

He may well cast doubt on Marine Le Pen's values,

:05:41.:05:47.

or even suggest she's not so different from her father.

:05:48.:05:49.

She is suddenly looking not as the newcomer,

:05:50.:06:00.

as she would hope, but somebody who has tried again and again to be

:06:01.:06:04.

elected, while Francois Fillon was prime minister for five years

:06:05.:06:06.

and is now the favourite, the newcomer.

:06:07.:06:08.

She didn't expect him to win the primary.

:06:09.:06:10.

So this is a new battle for her and it is dangerous

:06:11.:06:13.

Mobilising people against an establishment candidate

:06:14.:06:22.

will still provide Le Pen with plenty of options, and the success

:06:23.:06:25.

of her messages on border controls and leaving the single currency may

:06:26.:06:28.

yet produce in France a huge challenge to the European project.

:06:29.:06:36.

Joining me now are Benedicte Paviot, the UK correspondent for France 24,

:06:37.:06:39.

and Philippe Marliere, Professor of French and European Politics

:06:40.:06:41.

at University College, London.

:06:42.:06:45.

I want to start by getting you to reflect on the Front National, they

:06:46.:06:53.

seem to have softened enormously. Should we think of them as the

:06:54.:07:00.

Fascist party or the French Ukip? It is more the French Ukip but it is a

:07:01.:07:06.

different animal to Ukip. There is very much the question of identity,

:07:07.:07:12.

this is across the French spectrum, people are concerned about security

:07:13.:07:17.

and France is still under a state of emergency, about immigration. And

:07:18.:07:24.

that is they are concerned, very high unemployment, France has almost

:07:25.:07:30.

10%. The economy is not doing very well, so it is difficult and people

:07:31.:07:35.

are finding it very hard to get by. But I wouldn't compare and Nigel

:07:36.:07:42.

Farage doesn't like her thinking they are in the same boat. He has

:07:43.:07:47.

never said a word against, he said, but he has criticised her father.

:07:48.:07:54.

Would you call them a fascist party? She is very astute in her language,

:07:55.:07:59.

so she is able to appeal to people who would be described as probably

:08:00.:08:04.

fascist but she is careful, unlike her father, not to generally say

:08:05.:08:10.

things, although she has been in trouble herself, whether it is about

:08:11.:08:15.

Muslims and also about the Holocaust. Do you think of them as

:08:16.:08:23.

the Fascist party? Or Ukip? It is hard-core them a fascist party today

:08:24.:08:31.

-- it is hard to call them a fascist party today, although their roots

:08:32.:08:34.

are in the far right, and they are clearly an extreme far right party,

:08:35.:08:38.

but they have softened the image, the brand, because of Le Pen

:08:39.:08:45.

herself, the message is soft, but when you look at the core policies

:08:46.:08:48.

it is about immigration and law and order. Identity politics. It is

:08:49.:08:54.

still about Islam posing a major threat to French identity. The have

:08:55.:09:01.

-- these have been very important in other elections, like in America. If

:09:02.:09:07.

many French voters think they are a fascist party, they will think they

:09:08.:09:10.

will never vote for them, but if you look at the policies you have

:09:11.:09:15.

described, populist economics, sovereignty, national control, you

:09:16.:09:21.

could see people voting for that, couldn't you? It would appeal to the

:09:22.:09:26.

mainstream? It is a difficult question, opinion polls have said

:09:27.:09:30.

for the majority of people the Front National remains a party which is a

:09:31.:09:33.

threat to French democracy. That is very clear. It is not a normal party

:09:34.:09:39.

in that respect, but if you want to see it as a fascist party along the

:09:40.:09:45.

lines of the Nazis in Germany or Mussolini, there are differences,

:09:46.:09:51.

clearly. Let's talk about the Front National, being parked between Ukip

:09:52.:09:58.

and more extreme, but Francois Fillon, he is not a normal French

:09:59.:10:01.

candidate, he's quite right wing. Thatcherite. Which the French don't

:10:02.:10:07.

like. Very socially conservative. Yes. Francois Fillon, I would not

:10:08.:10:15.

agree with your reporter, he's a known quantity, he would like to

:10:16.:10:19.

present himself as a newcomer, but the French people know him very

:10:20.:10:25.

well. He was a Prime Minister under Nicolas Sarkozy and we should point

:10:26.:10:28.

out that it is quite a surprise that we are sitting here at the end of

:10:29.:10:35.

November... He was not seen at all by the polls as the favourite to be

:10:36.:10:42.

the Conservative candidate, but he is the official candidate in what

:10:43.:10:47.

was a very successful first time exercise for the French

:10:48.:10:51.

Conservatives to do these primaries, that is the... Be socialists did

:10:52.:10:57.

that at the last election, they will go through their second exercise. It

:10:58.:11:01.

was very successful because they got millions of people do come out and

:11:02.:11:06.

vote and we ended up, not with another former Conservative Prime

:11:07.:11:11.

Minister, we got Francois Fillon, who has a track record, and is a

:11:12.:11:16.

known quantity. He has parked his tanks very firmly on the right,

:11:17.:11:21.

which is a slight problem for Marine Le Pen. She had geared herself up to

:11:22.:11:26.

be dealing with Alain Juppe. He's not doing well in the polls, though.

:11:27.:11:32.

Ever since his victory, which was very good, and the expulsion in

:11:33.:11:36.

third place of the former President Nicholas Sarkozy, he has been

:11:37.:11:45.

completely silent and 53% of the French people feel he has been to

:11:46.:11:48.

silent and he has disappeared, you can't afford to do that. And that he

:11:49.:11:52.

should also change some of its policies. What is going on in

:11:53.:11:58.

France? We have not spoken about the Socialists, no one seems to be

:11:59.:12:01.

bothered by them in this election. Is it cultural or economic question

:12:02.:12:11.

mark it is very simple, the Francois Hollande presidency has been a

:12:12.:12:15.

fiasco, really, there's a strong rejection of what Francois Hollande

:12:16.:12:20.

and the government have achieved, so a very unpopular government. That is

:12:21.:12:26.

why one of the candidates, Manuel Valls, will have a mountain to

:12:27.:12:32.

climb. If he's nominated by his own party. The second reason, the left

:12:33.:12:40.

is not united. There will be many many candidates, 5-6 candidates on

:12:41.:12:46.

the left. Very briefly. What do you think the EU should be thinking

:12:47.:12:50.

about this election? Should they be terrified of both candidates? Marine

:12:51.:12:59.

Le Pen is a bit softer towards the EU than she was six months ago. If

:13:00.:13:07.

Francois Fillon wins or a socialist wins, any candidate will be rather

:13:08.:13:11.

lukewarm regarding Europe but they will be the same continuation of the

:13:12.:13:19.

same policy as at the moment. If Le Pen wins it is a totally different

:13:20.:13:23.

situation. She would like a referendum about Frexit. That would

:13:24.:13:29.

be a different proposition, but she has to win, and she's not there yet,

:13:30.:13:35.

in my opinion. There is one other person to watch out for, the

:13:36.:13:37.

independent candidate. The wild card. Thanks for joining us.

:13:38.:13:44.

Britain has a new ambassador to the EU - didn't take long.

:13:45.:13:47.

I'm joined by our political editor Nick Watt.

:13:48.:13:54.

What do we know about Tim Barrow? He's an immensely respected figure

:13:55.:14:02.

and his nickname in the Foreign Office is deep state, which means he

:14:03.:14:06.

has the answers to everything. He had a stint in Moscow and a couple

:14:07.:14:11.

in Brussels. Boris Johnson is delighted. He believes the UK

:14:12.:14:19.

mission to the EU needs to be headed by someone who speaks the language

:14:20.:14:25.

in Europe. He was one of the diplomatic high-flyers who takes the

:14:26.:14:27.

form or notes of the European Council some years ago. They also

:14:28.:14:35.

believe because Tim Barrow has been the political director at the

:14:36.:14:42.

Foreign Office, he is June to the politics and he also has something

:14:43.:14:45.

of a sense of humour and is aware of the intricacies of the Brexit

:14:46.:14:50.

debate. This became apparent in a recent appearance before the foreign

:14:51.:14:53.

affairs select committee when his boss Alan Duncan inadvertently set

:14:54.:14:56.

him up as one of those dreaded experts. This is the exchange. I'm

:14:57.:15:01.

not perhaps as deeply immersed in the

:15:02.:15:15.

thinking, but maybe I can bat that to Tim Barrow, who has been living

:15:16.:15:23.

with this... I'm not an expert. Michael Gove might approve, but not

:15:24.:15:25.

me. Where did disappointment come from?

:15:26.:15:36.

It has been quite quick. Is it a solution, or does it create another

:15:37.:15:41.

problem inside the Foreign Office? Tim Barrow was only approached for

:15:42.:15:46.

this job in the last 36 hours after Sir Ivan Rogers stood down, and the

:15:47.:15:50.

process a successor was led by Sir Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet

:15:51.:15:52.

Secretary scotching rumours that a political Brexiteer would be put in.

:15:53.:15:57.

Sir Jeremy has ensured that at one level, nothing changes. A Whitehall

:15:58.:16:01.

life will run the British mission to the EU. But at another level,

:16:02.:16:06.

everything changes. He is a clean slate. Sir Ivan Rogers carried a lot

:16:07.:16:14.

of baggage because he was associated with David Cameron's negotiations.

:16:15.:16:16.

Interestingly, Tim Barrow has achieved a first. He has united

:16:17.:16:22.

Remainers and almost all Leavers. One dissenting voice is Nigel

:16:23.:16:23.

Farage. In the film I, Daniel Blake,

:16:24.:16:26.

you see the main characters Daniel Blake and his friend Kate

:16:27.:16:29.

lose their benefits after being Sanctioning is a punishment for not

:16:30.:16:31.

looking for work hard enough or turning up on time

:16:32.:16:35.

for appointments or whatever. Now, Daniel Blake's story

:16:36.:16:37.

is fiction, but those who work in food banks

:16:38.:16:39.

say that sanctioning does force

:16:40.:16:41.

people into charity. We're going to debate sanctioning

:16:42.:16:42.

shortly with Ken Loach, who made But first, we go to the town

:16:43.:16:45.

of Accrington to meet some people Filmmaker Nick Blakemore has

:16:46.:16:50.

returned to Maundy Grange, a charity relief centre he visited

:16:51.:16:54.

in 2014, which tries to help them. I've had a bit of a bad

:16:55.:17:11.

situation with a landlord. Got in rent arrears with

:17:12.:17:16.

the landlord and he's just started At the moment, he's struggling

:17:17.:17:21.

hard for furniture. Here, we try to provide an immediate

:17:22.:17:36.

response to poverty and need Need can be defined as not having

:17:37.:17:39.

enough to eat or suffering from mental ill-health or needing

:17:40.:17:43.

help with a form. It's difficult to be optimistic

:17:44.:17:46.

at the moment because we've seen three years of things getting

:17:47.:17:58.

gradually worse and I think there are things which we weren't used to,

:17:59.:18:01.

like benefits sanctions and people being left to be destitute,

:18:02.:18:06.

which are now more commonplace. And that's a worry, and that doesn't

:18:07.:18:08.

seem to be getting better. I can't get into the house

:18:09.:18:14.

to get my stuff, so while I'm fighting to get my stuff,

:18:15.:18:20.

I've got nothing to live on, If I can get hold of

:18:21.:18:23.

a bed or something. I've got no debts and I don't

:18:24.:18:29.

owe anybody any money. When he lost his job four years ago,

:18:30.:18:54.

he says he gave up on the system I've worked all my life and now

:18:55.:19:03.

they expect me to do I do volunteer work

:19:04.:19:13.

five days a week. There should be heads

:19:14.:19:23.

rolling for that one. When you say you worked

:19:24.:19:30.

all your life, what were you doing? My first job, I worked in the mill

:19:31.:19:33.

for six years and then in a foundry for a couple of years,

:19:34.:19:36.

and then in another foundry When I was here last,

:19:37.:19:39.

I met John Crabtree. The sanctions are basically

:19:40.:19:44.

about saying you're not making enough of an effort

:19:45.:19:50.

to look for work. I turned around and said to them,

:19:51.:19:52.

"Look, I'm 61 now, there's no jobs So how can you sit there, young

:19:53.:19:59.

person, 25, and tell me about work? You haven't even had

:20:00.:20:09.

the experience I've had". I tracked John down to his

:20:10.:20:12.

new place in Accrington. he says, because he did not fill

:20:13.:20:28.

in a form correctly. This is where I've been

:20:29.:20:35.

for about three year. Last time I spoke to you, you'd been

:20:36.:20:59.

sanctioned and you said you'd I spoke to you the other day

:21:00.:21:06.

and you said you'd been in prison? I got caught, obviously,

:21:07.:21:16.

so I got 20 months. The plug was in, it ran over,

:21:17.:21:32.

and that's what it did. Well, it's better than the place

:21:33.:22:00.

you were in before. Can I just ask you,

:22:01.:22:06.

when you think back, Yeah, I worked from

:22:07.:22:14.

the age of 15, 16. Things should be easy now,

:22:15.:22:20.

not worse, but anyway, Jonno, are

:22:21.:22:29.

these your supplies? Chocolate's my favourite

:22:30.:22:49.

drug, then weed. Sometimes I wake up

:22:50.:22:57.

and think, oh, shit. Sometimes I have a nice

:22:58.:23:03.

dream and I think, ahhh. When you find a place to sleep

:23:04.:23:10.

at night, what do you look for? It's got a bit of light,

:23:11.:23:16.

that's quite nice. As long as you have a couple

:23:17.:23:26.

of sleeping bags, something It's a lot better than,

:23:27.:23:29.

say, sleeping in a Tesco You get over here

:23:30.:23:33.

and out of the way. You know you have to get

:23:34.:23:39.

up in the morning by You find a place that's

:23:40.:23:42.

sheltered like this. Back in 2014, Zack was

:23:43.:23:48.

struggling to make ends meet. Some jobs, they're only taking

:23:49.:24:07.

on certain qualified people. What happened after you

:24:08.:24:27.

were sanctioned, then? They basically messed around

:24:28.:24:48.

with my housing benefit and it still carried on until not

:24:49.:24:50.

so long ago. They got me over ?1,000

:24:51.:25:00.

in debt with my landlady. Messing with my jobseekers'

:25:01.:25:06.

and all that lot. That's what made me want

:25:07.:25:08.

to get a job, really. So obviously, I don't

:25:09.:25:17.

have to depend on them. All we have is emergency

:25:18.:25:23.

accommodation, which is literally It's easy to agree with

:25:24.:25:30.

the principle that people But what worries us is the number

:25:31.:25:36.

of people who can't work who are being penalised for not

:25:37.:25:44.

being able to work. The way things are going,

:25:45.:25:47.

I think there's a big gap in people's awareness

:25:48.:25:50.

of what's going on. Maybe some people feel we're moving

:25:51.:25:53.

out of recession and things are getting a bit better and maybe

:25:54.:25:56.

there's a lack of willingness to look at people who don't have

:25:57.:26:01.

that feeling that things are getting better, and for whom things

:26:02.:26:05.

are getting considerably worse. I use a lot of food from the skips,

:26:06.:26:12.

I've got to admit. I find a lot of chocolate biscuits

:26:13.:26:28.

sometimes, a lot of cake. The soup kitchens, things like that,

:26:29.:26:31.

there's not enough to cope So when you are hungry at tea

:26:32.:27:02.

time, you do the skips. Can you explain how

:27:03.:27:09.

often you go hungry? Because I'm homeless,

:27:10.:27:11.

I'm on the streets at the moment. We did ask the Department for Work

:27:12.:27:22.

and Pension for an interview, but they weren't able

:27:23.:27:48.

to offer anyone. They did say, however,

:27:49.:27:49.

that sanctions are only I'm joined in the studio

:27:50.:27:51.

by Matthew Oakley, who was commissioned

:27:52.:27:56.

by the government to write an independent review

:27:57.:27:58.

into the impact of sanctions And in Bristol we have

:27:59.:28:00.

director Ken Loach, whose award winning film I,

:28:01.:28:05.

Daniel Blake told the story of people struggling

:28:06.:28:07.

with the bureaucracy Matthew, I would like to start with

:28:08.:28:22.

you for some facts. You did a review and you found it was basically

:28:23.:28:26.

working, is that right of the sanction system? Essentially so. We

:28:27.:28:32.

need to take on board the wider context, that this is a system of

:28:33.:28:35.

sanctions that only applies to a small number of people. The majority

:28:36.:28:38.

of people on benefits are not sanctioned. So the people you see in

:28:39.:28:46.

that film are at the hardest end of what are talking about. Secondly,

:28:47.:28:50.

there is a huge amount of international evidence that shows

:28:51.:28:53.

that conditionality, requirements placed on people who are on

:28:54.:28:58.

benefits, backed up by financial sanctions, penalties for not doing

:28:59.:29:01.

what they should be in terms of looking for work, is effective in

:29:02.:29:04.

getting people back to work more quickly. Thirdly, this is a system

:29:05.:29:08.

that is supported by both the majority of the public, but also

:29:09.:29:11.

benefit claimants themselves. That is one of the surprising things from

:29:12.:29:15.

my review. We spoke to a lot of benefit claimants and charities who

:29:16.:29:18.

support them and even people who have been sanctioned, and they

:29:19.:29:22.

supported the principle. What is your reaction as you watch that

:29:23.:29:23.

film? Do you think those people should

:29:24.:29:43.

have been sanction, or do you think they are just, if you like, the cost

:29:44.:29:46.

of a sanctioning system, that you will have some people who shouldn't

:29:47.:29:48.

be sanctioned who are sanctioned? It looked like someone find it quite

:29:49.:29:50.

difficult to get a job. Absolutely. What my review said was that in

:29:51.:29:55.

certain situations where people are obviously vulnerable, we are talking

:29:56.:29:59.

homelessness here, that should act as a signal for people to step in

:30:00.:30:02.

and provide more support for those people so they can get themselves

:30:03.:30:07.

out of that situation. Did you see I, Daniel Blake, the movie? I have

:30:08.:30:12.

not seen it. Ken Loach, did you recognise the finding that some

:30:13.:30:15.

conditionality in a system that is, you have got some responsibility is

:30:16.:30:18.

and you are punished if you don't meet them, do you accept any of that

:30:19.:30:26.

in the benefit system? Well, what's clear is that sanctions are a cruel

:30:27.:30:30.

and vindictive way of treating vulnerable people. People are to

:30:31.:30:40.

fail. The system is there to trap them. When they go to a Jobcentre,

:30:41.:30:44.

they are not shown the jobs that are available. The job coaches aren't

:30:45.:30:49.

allowed to show them what jobs are available, and people are inferior.

:30:50.:30:53.

And a lot of people are sanctioned because of the work capability

:30:54.:30:57.

assessment -- people are in fear. We heard a story of a man who had a

:30:58.:31:00.

heart attack in the course of the assessment. He had to go to hospital

:31:01.:31:04.

and was sanctioned because he couldn't complete the assessment.

:31:05.:31:08.

There are absurd stories of people being sanctioned for being a few

:31:09.:31:13.

moments late. And of course, we know Jobcentre staff, I don't know if

:31:14.:31:16.

Matthew Oakley got this in his report, but Jobcentre staff are

:31:17.:31:22.

given targets. They call them expectations, and if they don't

:31:23.:31:24.

sanction a certain number of people per week, they get into trouble.

:31:25.:31:31.

Let me put this specifically to Matthew. They have to work in a

:31:32.:31:38.

terrible atmosphere. Is that correct, they have do sanction a

:31:39.:31:42.

certain amount of people? I'm telling you it is correct. Wouldn't

:31:43.:31:47.

you be more concerned if we did not know how many people at a job centre

:31:48.:31:55.

were sanctioned? That we didn't know they were sanctioning, say, 30% of

:31:56.:32:00.

people, is it not right, in terms of standard management practice, we

:32:01.:32:02.

understand what proportion of people on benefits each office is

:32:03.:32:09.

sanctioning. Are they forced, they told you should be sanctioning this

:32:10.:32:14.

number? That is not my experience, we have spoken to Jobcentre staff,

:32:15.:32:21.

in the review, what we found is a large proportion of the staff

:32:22.:32:26.

actually supported the system. Ken Loach, I'm interested, you say there

:32:27.:32:33.

is no conditionality at all, or there are some kind of sanctions,

:32:34.:32:39.

and in a way, you said there should be no sanctions at all. Nobody

:32:40.:32:46.

supports cheating. Nobody supports tax cheat, but they don't seem to

:32:47.:32:53.

get the same coverage. Yes, of course, people should not cheat, and

:32:54.:32:55.

there should be a way of dealing with that, but when you stop people

:32:56.:33:00.

odds money, you force them into the dire poverty, they have nothing --

:33:01.:33:05.

when you stop people's money. They are driven to the streets and food

:33:06.:33:09.

banks, and last year out of one group of food banks, 1,100,000 food

:33:10.:33:17.

bags were given. Half a million of those went to families with

:33:18.:33:22.

children, children would not eat unless people put tins into a

:33:23.:33:25.

charity bag. Don't you think that is disgusting? We accept that as part

:33:26.:33:31.

of our society now. That is the system which Matthew Oakley appears

:33:32.:33:37.

to be defending. What I would say, this is a system which the vast

:33:38.:33:41.

majority of the public actually support, the claimants... You can't

:33:42.:33:47.

hide behind that, this is an appalling system. That is not to say

:33:48.:33:52.

that there are people who need more help. We have a binary system, you

:33:53.:33:57.

are either capable of work or you're not. But there are people who are on

:33:58.:34:03.

the margins and they will find working quite difficult, they have

:34:04.:34:07.

ragged lives or the responsibilities are a bit own a bit much. Are we

:34:08.:34:19.

applying sanctions to those people? Most people would say we do not want

:34:20.:34:23.

sanctions apply to people who are not capable of holding down a job.

:34:24.:34:29.

We need to understand what a sanction is. This is not people

:34:30.:34:34.

being sanction for not being in work, being unemployed or out of

:34:35.:34:38.

work is not because of a sanction. It is not doing what you have agreed

:34:39.:34:41.

to do for the people are agreeing to do these things. Seeking work and

:34:42.:34:48.

taking steps towards work, and maybe you are taking steps to prepare

:34:49.:34:52.

yourself for work, to take on some kind of activity which improves your

:34:53.:34:56.

health condition. This isn't people being sanction for not being at

:34:57.:34:58.

work, this is not taking the steps to what they have agreed. Ken Loach,

:34:59.:35:04.

the last word. People are sanctioned when they are in work, woman were

:35:05.:35:07.

sanctioned for going on leave when she was on a zero is ours contract.

:35:08.:35:13.

-- zero hours contract. We are missing the point, this is a very

:35:14.:35:19.

cruel way to deal with the most vulnerable people and if all the

:35:20.:35:23.

people who fulfilled every thing of what they are required, they would

:35:24.:35:27.

still be 1.6 million people unemployed and there would still be

:35:28.:35:31.

5 million people underemployed, the system creates the poverty and we

:35:32.:35:34.

are punishing the poorest and blaming them for their poverty,

:35:35.:35:39.

blaming the unemployed for the unemployment, and that is really

:35:40.:35:41.

false and Matthew should accept that. Ken Loach, Matthew, thanks for

:35:42.:35:50.

joining us. We now move to the other end of the social spectrum.

:35:51.:35:58.

The billionaire bosses of Silicon Valley.

:35:59.:35:59.

They have been as taken aback as anyone by the new and obvious

:36:00.:36:03.

Full, as they are, of the potential of technology to solve anything,

:36:04.:36:06.

suddenly it seems that real people in their midst, have problems that

:36:07.:36:09.

Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook made a new year Facebook

:36:10.:36:15.

post with a hint of guilt at how disconnected he has become

:36:16.:36:18.

He's challenged himself to visit 30 US states this year,

:36:19.:36:24.

and to meet the people in them, having, he says, enjoyed

:36:25.:36:27.

travelling around the cities of the world in recent years.

:36:28.:36:29.

It's a fascinating post, it not only offers a good idea

:36:30.:36:32.

for a new year's resolution for upstanding members

:36:33.:36:34.

But it also tells us something about the tech entrepreneur class -

:36:35.:36:37.

a kind of new royalty, with a sense of the duty

:36:38.:36:40.

Or does it tell us something about the challenge of trying to run

:36:41.:36:47.

a business for everyone, in a society that's split.

:36:48.:36:49.

Here's our technology editor David Grossman.

:36:50.:36:53.

The New Year is a time to reflect on times past...

:36:54.:36:58.

What could possibly help a New Year hangover better than a load of world

:36:59.:37:01.

leaders popping up on your phone to give you their thoughts

:37:02.:37:04.

And, how refreshing, amongst the peace and goodwill messages,

:37:05.:37:10.

to hear the North Korean leader announce a new long-range missile

:37:11.:37:13.

But look who's also lighting the fuse on the year with a missive,

:37:14.:37:21.

In a post on Facebook, he says:

:37:22.:38:02.

In previous years, he has said something more substantive,

:38:03.:38:04.

"I'm going to programme an AI for my house, I'm going

:38:05.:38:07.

This year he is like, "I have a toddler and I don't have

:38:08.:38:13.

that much bandwidth and I'm just going to go to Nebraska

:38:14.:38:15.

The fact is, tech companies like Facebook don't really

:38:16.:38:20.

They don't have too many Trump supporters working

:38:21.:38:23.

They're built of people who look the same, they act the same,

:38:24.:38:29.

Maybe they went to the same university together.

:38:30.:38:33.

And they work together to build a brilliant company,

:38:34.:38:36.

but then at some point they realise they need to start focusing

:38:37.:38:39.

on the people who didn't come from the same background as them

:38:40.:38:42.

and did not go to the same university and do not

:38:43.:38:45.

We need to start bridging our way out and experiencing people in a

:38:46.:38:54.

different context if we are going to build their products.

:38:55.:38:59.

And I think that's something I'm seeing more founders

:39:00.:39:02.

One of Donald Trump's first actions after his election was to summon

:39:03.:39:07.

the bosses of the big tech companies to Trump Tower for a meeting.

:39:08.:39:10.

Most had made no secret of their antipathy towards him

:39:11.:39:12.

But how powerful are these tech bosses

:39:13.:39:19.

I think that what Mark Zuckerberg does by being the chief

:39:20.:39:27.

executive of Facebook, which has its own population,

:39:28.:39:33.

or its user base which is larger than most countries in the world,

:39:34.:39:36.

And the messaging and the way it convenes people or convenes thought

:39:37.:39:41.

or informs people is hugely important and can be

:39:42.:39:44.

transformational for different political agendas.

:39:45.:39:46.

The Facebook algorithm, of course, has been blamed

:39:47.:39:49.

for spreading fake news stories during the US election campaign.

:39:50.:39:53.

The balance between maintaining an open platform and policing

:39:54.:40:01.

the content on that platform has never been one the tech companies

:40:02.:40:04.

They don't like the messiness of the real world.

:40:05.:40:11.

They don't like the messiness of how you deal with unemployment

:40:12.:40:14.

The hot thing in Silicon Valley right now is this thing called

:40:15.:40:21.

Everyone loves it for different reasons, because it's a bold

:40:22.:40:25.

and simple idea which can transform the world.

:40:26.:40:28.

But politics isn't really about bold and simple ideas.

:40:29.:40:32.

Politics in the real world is about campaigning and meeting

:40:33.:40:36.

people and understanding different ways of looking at the world

:40:37.:40:40.

and forging compromise and legislating, and that kind

:40:41.:40:42.

of messiness is something Silicon Valley just

:40:43.:40:44.

This is much more the sort of project they love,

:40:45.:40:52.

bringing the internet to the unconnected in

:40:53.:40:53.

Although the big tech firms are more and more powerful in our lives,

:40:54.:40:58.

they're only now learning how to use this huge influence.

:40:59.:41:02.

Clearly, they don't want to act like elected politicians,

:41:03.:41:04.

apart from, that is, sending out the odd

:41:05.:41:06.

That's all we've got time for this evening.

:41:07.:41:15.

But before we go, as you might have heard, today was the last day Dippy

:41:16.:41:20.

the Diplodocus could be seen in the Natural History Museum before

:41:21.:41:22.

I understand that things are not going smoothly.

:41:23.:41:28.

Let's go over now to the museum hall.

:41:29.:41:30.

Skies are likely to clear through the night and it will turn bitterly

:41:31.:42:35.

cold. A

:42:36.:42:37.