10/01/2017 Newsnight


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10/01/2017

In-depth investigation with Kirsty Wark. Did Jeremy Corbyn's policy launch go a bit wrong? Trump's son-in-law gets a top job - who is Jared Kushner?


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I would like there to be some kind of high earnings cap, quite

:00:08.:00:14.

honestly. You could set a limit on top pay. I think it is probably

:00:15.:00:19.

better to look at the ratio issue. Jeremy Corbyn started the day with a

:00:20.:00:23.

surprising new policy, and this afternoon, it was dead in the water.

:00:24.:00:26.

This was not even the topic of his big relaunch of which was meant to

:00:27.:00:31.

be about freedom of movement. We will ask one of his closest

:00:32.:00:34.

lieutenants what he actually means. Also tonight:

:00:35.:00:36.

Jared is a very successful real estate person, but I actually think

:00:37.:00:39.

he likes politics more than he likes real estate.

:00:40.:00:43.

So it seems. Meet 36-year-old Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law

:00:44.:00:53.

and confident, soon to be top White House adviser. Who is he bring to

:00:54.:00:56.

bear. And remember this? Governor Tarkin, I should have

:00:57.:00:59.

expected to find you Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher are

:01:00.:01:09.

no longer with us, but that is no obstacle to being a major character

:01:10.:01:12.

in a new Star Wars movie. Will Carrie Fisher now also get digitally

:01:13.:01:16.

resurrected, and would she really want that?

:01:17.:01:24.

It was billed as Jeremy Corbyn's big day - rebooting Labour's approach

:01:25.:01:28.

to Brexit, and specifically it's position on the free

:01:29.:01:30.

Instead he announced a radical new policy for a maximum pay

:01:31.:01:35.

He said that salaries paid to some company

:01:36.:01:40.

bosses and top footballers were "utterly ridiculous."

:01:41.:01:42.

But by the afternoon, after a former advisor to the Labour

:01:43.:01:45.

leader had called it a "lunatic idea," it morphed into

:01:46.:01:48.

But there was still confusion over any policy on free

:01:49.:01:54.

Peterborough was an ideal venue for Mr Corbyn's speech -

:01:55.:01:58.

it's a marginal held by the Conservatives that

:01:59.:02:00.

This is how some people in the town view the Labour leader.

:02:01.:02:07.

He started off backing the Remain campaign and then he switched

:02:08.:02:12.

And now he's sort of trying to backtrack himself and back

:02:13.:02:17.

And as a long supporter of Labour, a few years ago I started to switch

:02:18.:02:28.

because of the way the Brexit campaign was going.

:02:29.:02:30.

Honestly, I don't think he deserves the stick that he gets

:02:31.:02:33.

I think he's quite well rounded and I think he has,

:02:34.:02:37.

like, a lot of respect for mental health issues.

:02:38.:02:39.

Which I think a lot of people don't really get.

:02:40.:02:43.

Well, we're not of his persuasion, but I don't think he's got

:02:44.:02:49.

the character to lead the country, or his party.

:02:50.:02:54.

I think he's talking a lot of sense, to be honest.

:02:55.:03:00.

I just think it's not necessarily that popular at the moment.

:03:01.:03:04.

The Labour leadership is invoking a new strategy to engage with voters

:03:05.:03:10.

and as part of that they hope to emulate some of

:03:11.:03:13.

Here's our political editor Nick Watt.

:03:14.:03:24.

The world is turning its attention to America, and who would have

:03:25.:03:30.

believed that? Jeremy Corbyn, who has spent a lifetime campaigning

:03:31.:03:37.

against US dominance, believes there are lessons for him in Donald

:03:38.:03:43.

Trump's victory. Today we saw Jeremy Corbyn's first outing of the New

:03:44.:03:46.

Year. There was a change of tack on Europe as he said he is no longer

:03:47.:03:50.

wedded to the crew movement of people, then intriguingly, Labour

:03:51.:03:53.

indicated that he may follow some of Donald Trump's tactics in reaching

:03:54.:03:58.

out directly to voters as an insurgent. Jeremy Corbyn is not

:03:59.:04:05.

exactly America's number one fan. It seems highly unlikely we will see

:04:06.:04:09.

him here any time soon, and he profoundly disagrees with Donald

:04:10.:04:13.

Trump's outpourings on Twitter, but he does believe that the incoming

:04:14.:04:17.

president has captured ways of communicating on social media that

:04:18.:04:21.

are highly effective for an insurgent. Newsnight understands

:04:22.:04:24.

that having seen off that second leadership challenge, Jeremy Corbyn

:04:25.:04:30.

now believes the time has come to rekindle that spirit as an

:04:31.:04:34.

antiestablishment candidate on social media. To my mind, Mr Trump

:04:35.:04:42.

is a racist, and a misogynist, and a pretty bad thing in the world, but I

:04:43.:04:47.

am smart enough to know that he has spoken to a lot of people very

:04:48.:04:52.

directly, and he has spoken to their concerns. He's offered the wrong

:04:53.:04:57.

recipe, and he's played on those concerns. I want to listen to those

:04:58.:05:02.

concerns, as does Jeremy Corbyn, but sell a different message. He is

:05:03.:05:06.

certainly the man for us, because he appears on the sofa...

:05:07.:05:08.

The leadership has decided that Jeremy Corbyn should devote less

:05:09.:05:13.

time to the written press and more time to live interviews on

:05:14.:05:16.

television and radio. They admit it can't go wrong but say that live

:05:17.:05:20.

broadcasting allows leaders to speak more directly to voters. And then

:05:21.:05:23.

there are the Donald Trump lessons from twitter. Expect a modern

:05:24.:05:32.

version of Labour's rebuttal unit. One politician who blazed a trail

:05:33.:05:36.

for leaders speaking directly to voters has mixed feelings. I don't

:05:37.:05:44.

think I've got any lessons to teach anyone. My strategy didn't exactly

:05:45.:05:50.

culminate in success in elections. I have some sympathy, of course I do,

:05:51.:05:57.

given the powerful vested interests we've got in the written press in

:05:58.:06:01.

this country, there's a need, unhinged stuff that you get from

:06:02.:06:05.

Paul Dacre run the Daily Mail and elsewhere, the bully boy tactics of

:06:06.:06:09.

those papers, and I understand that Jeremy Corbyn and his team want to

:06:10.:06:11.

communicate with people that clearly they are not going to the pages of

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the... Mail and other parts of the Brexit press. Jeremy Corbyn may be

:06:18.:06:20.

looking to the US for inspiration on how to reach out to voters, but in

:06:21.:06:26.

common with all UK political leaders, his fortunes will be bound

:06:27.:06:29.

up with how the UK negotiates it way out of the EU. Today, in the

:06:30.:06:35.

strongly pro-leave city of Peterborough, he said he was no

:06:36.:06:38.

longer wedded to the principle of free movement. Allies said this

:06:39.:06:42.

marked a shift in language and a recognition that Brexit does provide

:06:43.:06:46.

an opportunity for wider reform of the labour market by cracking down

:06:47.:06:52.

on agencies that have used migrant labour to drive down wages. The more

:06:53.:06:56.

I get the impression that the differences now between Theresa May

:06:57.:07:01.

and the principal party of opposition, the Labour Party, is

:07:02.:07:06.

basically one of nuance and detail rather than substance. They both say

:07:07.:07:10.

that there have to be unspecified reforms to freedom of movement, and

:07:11.:07:14.

that worries me because unless the Labour Party is prepared to hold the

:07:15.:07:20.

Government's feet to the fire, this Government, I worry, is going to bok

:07:21.:07:25.

choi Brexit very badly. A former member of the Shadow Cabinet

:07:26.:07:30.

believes that Jeremy Corbyn is on the right track but does not go far

:07:31.:07:36.

enough. I welcome a commitment to managed migration but I think we

:07:37.:07:39.

need more detail on how that will work in practice. I think that one

:07:40.:07:46.

of the main messages from the EU referendum back in June was that the

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status quo on immigration and free movement cannot continue, and people

:07:51.:07:55.

want the Government to have more control of the numbers of people

:07:56.:07:59.

coming in. In common with the finest of start-ups, today's strategy had a

:08:00.:08:05.

bit of a bumpy start. Jeremy Corbyn appeared to suggest early on that he

:08:06.:08:09.

favoured a cap on maximum pay rates. By this afternoon, the position was

:08:10.:08:14.

a little more nuanced as he suggested the Government could use

:08:15.:08:16.

its leverage in public sector contracts to force private companies

:08:17.:08:22.

to accept pay ratios, and the tax system could be used to change

:08:23.:08:27.

behaviour more widely. Jeremy Corbyn is unlikely to be picking fights

:08:28.:08:32.

with Hollywood stars. The moment, his mind will be on a windswept

:08:33.:08:38.

corner of Cumbria where Labour faces a tough by-election fight. Today's

:08:39.:08:43.

message on Brexit was no doubt aimed at Copeland and other labour streets

:08:44.:08:45.

which recorded a strong Leave vote. Caroline Flint was a shadow

:08:46.:08:48.

minister under Ed Miliband. You and other senior colleagues

:08:49.:08:56.

wanted a specific policy on freedom of movement. What did you want to

:08:57.:09:00.

hear today? I take a lot of positives from what Jeremy said

:09:01.:09:04.

today. After the referendum, he said the Labour Party needed to review

:09:05.:09:08.

immigration policy, and I think he did make clear today that as part of

:09:09.:09:11.

the discussions around the deal around Brexit, then looking at what

:09:12.:09:18.

a fair and reasonable set of rules around freedom of movement would

:09:19.:09:25.

mean to the discussion. But you were looking for something more specific,

:09:26.:09:28.

and he only said he was not wedded to the idea. Let me see what I was

:09:29.:09:33.

looking for. I believe that freedom of movement is something we should

:09:34.:09:37.

have addressed a long time ago, and Labour has sidestepped people's

:09:38.:09:43.

concerns on immigration, particularly in communities outside

:09:44.:09:47.

the big cities, outside of London. Jeremy has said, and it is backed up

:09:48.:09:51.

by Kia Starmer and the deputy leader, that is part of the

:09:52.:09:53.

negotiations around Brexit, of course we want full access to the

:09:54.:10:00.

single market as much as possible, but freedom of movement has to be

:10:01.:10:05.

part of that. Add to that, I think something like 50% of those who

:10:06.:10:10.

voted Remain also wanted reform of free movement as well. But you and

:10:11.:10:15.

others of your ilk want to see a two tier position. You want to see one

:10:16.:10:22.

strategy for senior skilled foe, and another strategy for others. You are

:10:23.:10:25.

rather long way from getting that. We have the start of a discussion

:10:26.:10:30.

today. Certainly, I think we need to look and probed more into the detail

:10:31.:10:35.

about how EU migration has affected Britain. When I did a survey online

:10:36.:10:42.

in my own constituency, where they voted overwhelmingly to leave, when

:10:43.:10:46.

I asked what they thought of students or highly skilled workers,

:10:47.:10:50.

they were less worried about that then the impact on low skill,

:10:51.:10:55.

low-paid sectors and areas such as Doncaster. New Labour was much less

:10:56.:11:01.

concerned about ordinary voters' concerns than growing the economy.

:11:02.:11:05.

They ignored it and turned a deaf ear to that, and that was a mistake,

:11:06.:11:08.

not just economically but culturally. It is not just about

:11:09.:11:14.

economic spot the social atmosphere. In my own constituency in the Don

:11:15.:11:19.

Valley, in 1997, it was over 90% white. The non-British vote has

:11:20.:11:28.

increased since then. It is a big change in communities. I wonder if

:11:29.:11:32.

people feel that the message from new Labour was that even two boys

:11:33.:11:37.

that was racist. I think part of the problem was that there were

:11:38.:11:40.

mistakes, and it has been acknowledged that we did not have

:11:41.:11:44.

transition controls in the way we have over Romania and Bulgaria.

:11:45.:11:49.

Across all parties, politicians tend to look at the net figures

:11:50.:11:53.

nationally without bearing down on what is happening in different

:11:54.:11:57.

communities, and I do think that is where not just around immigration

:11:58.:12:00.

but around globalisation, the loss of jobs, on the big scale,

:12:01.:12:04.

particularly when the economy was doing well before the recession, it

:12:05.:12:10.

could mask these problems. The thing you are acknowledging is that even a

:12:11.:12:14.

small population change can mean a big social shift. And the rate of it

:12:15.:12:20.

as well. Actually, it is a problem for people even to discuss it. You

:12:21.:12:23.

would not have the Labour leadership saying it was a problem, would you?

:12:24.:12:32.

Jeremy did address some of the problems, in his own words, which

:12:33.:12:37.

might be different from my words. That's OK. He did address the fact

:12:38.:12:41.

that some employers have used loopholes through freedom of

:12:42.:12:46.

movement to basically... That's economic, not culturally. -- not

:12:47.:12:54.

cultural. It overlaps. When you add in zero-hours contracts and young

:12:55.:12:57.

people can't put together the money for a deposit on a flat to rent, and

:12:58.:13:01.

when people are feeling that wholesale recruitment through an

:13:02.:13:05.

agency to a town in Poland has come into their local factory, it's not

:13:06.:13:08.

only hitting them in the pocket but in their hearts as well. Thank you

:13:09.:13:10.

very much indeed. We're joined by the Shadow Attorney

:13:11.:13:12.

General Baroness Chakrabarti. First of all, can you explain

:13:13.:13:22.

Labour's policy on freedom of movement as discussed today? Can you

:13:23.:13:28.

explain what it actually is. I will do my best. The priority is the

:13:29.:13:32.

economy, and we think that at this moment in their negotiations that

:13:33.:13:38.

will come, the priority is trying to get access to the single market. We

:13:39.:13:42.

don't have an ideological position that's for or against immigration,

:13:43.:13:49.

the priority is the economy, but as Caroline said, the economy has to

:13:50.:13:52.

wipe everyone, those at the top and at the bottom. When you are talking

:13:53.:13:56.

about the impact on the economy, you have to take care of business, yes,

:13:57.:14:01.

that wants to have free movement, but you also need to think about

:14:02.:14:05.

people whose wages are being undercut, about housing, public

:14:06.:14:09.

services and so on. If it was necessary for the economy to have

:14:10.:14:12.

more immigration rather than less, you would favour that? Yes, but only

:14:13.:14:16.

do if you do the corresponding thing, to make sure that migrant

:14:17.:14:20.

labour cannot be exploited and that people's wages are not undercut and

:14:21.:14:25.

that you do all the things to ameliorate the impact on people

:14:26.:14:28.

lower down the economic scale so that free movement isn't something

:14:29.:14:33.

that is just benefiting people at the top but not benefiting people at

:14:34.:14:37.

the bottom who feel that migrant labour is being exploited, that they

:14:38.:14:40.

don't have homes and access to schools and hospitals and so on. The

:14:41.:14:44.

economy has to work for everyone, which is why the stuff about wages

:14:45.:14:49.

fits completely in with this policy. It can't just be about Brexit but

:14:50.:14:53.

about what kind of country we want to have afterwards. But we are not

:14:54.:14:59.

necessarily just talking about low wages paid to workers coming in, for

:15:00.:15:04.

example, seasonal workers. We are talking not just about that but

:15:05.:15:09.

about the impact of low skilled workers coming into the UK, where

:15:10.:15:14.

there is a glut of low skilled workers, and what you are not saying

:15:15.:15:19.

is that, actually, there will be a two tier system, which Caroline

:15:20.:15:21.

Flint wants, which takes high skilled workers and then if

:15:22.:15:26.

necessary low skilled workers. Jeremy Corbyn is simply saying he

:15:27.:15:28.

wants to get rid of the undercutting of wages. That is not a

:15:29.:15:32.

comprehensive policy on free movement.

:15:33.:15:39.

We cannot have a comprehensive policy on free movement because we

:15:40.:15:43.

are not currently sitting at the negotiating table. I think there has

:15:44.:15:51.

to be negotiation and the government has no plans whatsoever. What is

:15:52.:15:56.

clear is that the Labour Party will put the economy first but the

:15:57.:16:00.

economy must work not just for those at the top but every level. You are

:16:01.:16:05.

facing a by-election in Cumbria and in that by-election it will be a

:16:06.:16:13.

hard fight. Voters voted to leave. Do you think that what Jeremy Corbyn

:16:14.:16:18.

said today would reassure people who are natural Labour voters. People in

:16:19.:16:21.

that constituency are worried about the state of the hospital, they are

:16:22.:16:28.

worried about the future for their children and families. They're not

:16:29.:16:32.

anti immigration in some abstract way, they are not racist or

:16:33.:16:36.

xenophobic. They want to be part of an economy that works for everyone.

:16:37.:16:44.

They might want fewer immigrants in their community for the same reasons

:16:45.:16:47.

that Caroline Flint was talking about, you either want to raise the

:16:48.:16:52.

question of racism. I'm saying most people I have ever met in the UK

:16:53.:16:56.

regardless of their position on Brexit, are not anti-immigration in

:16:57.:17:03.

abstract way, what they want is an economy and society that works for

:17:04.:17:08.

everyone. What that means is that immigration has got to serve the

:17:09.:17:11.

economy but the economy has to be something we can all share in. So

:17:12.:17:16.

you do not allow the exploitation of migrant workers, you provide housing

:17:17.:17:19.

for everyone, health care for everyone. I'm keen to stick to this

:17:20.:17:27.

point, what Caroline was saying was that there may be an influx of

:17:28.:17:35.

migration in a big city but in other areas even a small shift can make a

:17:36.:17:40.

massive cultural difference. Do you accept that for some people that

:17:41.:17:44.

cultural change, that change in their whole world is something that

:17:45.:17:48.

is important to them and they're worried about being marked out as

:17:49.:17:54.

racist if they even raise it. I do not think it is racist to be

:17:55.:17:59.

concerned about the impact of immigration. I think that a lot of

:18:00.:18:03.

people fear the other when the other is not even in their neighbourhood

:18:04.:18:07.

but when there is an impact, it is the duty of government to provide

:18:08.:18:12.

the public services, the housing, and to avoid the undercutting of

:18:13.:18:16.

wages and that is the way to create an economy that works for everyone.

:18:17.:18:22.

Let's move on to Jeremy Corbyn and his pronouncement this morning that

:18:23.:18:29.

there was to be a wage cap. He talks about footballers earning millions

:18:30.:18:32.

and bankers and so forth. Did you know he was going to say that?

:18:33.:18:39.

Jeremy has been talking about inequality and general and wage

:18:40.:18:42.

inequality in particular probably all of his life. Did you know that

:18:43.:18:45.

he was going to announce this morning that he was in favour of a

:18:46.:18:52.

cap. I think he was completely authentic. But not this afternoon

:18:53.:18:55.

because he had to change that policy by then. That is not my reading of

:18:56.:19:00.

it and you have asked me for my reading of it is not the BBC reading

:19:01.:19:06.

of it. I am saying only that it was a major day for labour today, they

:19:07.:19:10.

work to be setting up their stall on free movement of people mainly but

:19:11.:19:15.

this was him rebooting for the New Year and it begins with a policy

:19:16.:19:18.

that I understand no one in the Shadow Cabinet knew was going to

:19:19.:19:24.

happen. That he was in favour of a cap on high pay and that was then

:19:25.:19:29.

reversed this afternoon to be a nuance on a question of ratio. That

:19:30.:19:34.

is not my reading of it. When you want to deal with wage inequality,

:19:35.:19:39.

you have to deal with in it in different sectors and using

:19:40.:19:44.

different tools. Footballers? In the public sector you could say we're

:19:45.:19:48.

going to cap public sector pay at the top. We have a ratio system. In

:19:49.:19:53.

the private sector you could look at things like tax incentives and the

:19:54.:19:59.

ratio between people at the top and bottom of a company. The big

:20:00.:20:06.

picture... Danny Blanchflower said it was a lunatic idea. But by the

:20:07.:20:12.

afternoon Jeremy Corbyn has announced something completely

:20:13.:20:18.

different, perhaps tweaking the tax system and an extension of the

:20:19.:20:23.

ratios. There are different ways to approach wage inequality in

:20:24.:20:27.

different sectors but what is clear and authentic is that Jeremy is for

:20:28.:20:31.

a more equal Britain and many people are with him on that. During the day

:20:32.:20:38.

today when Jeremy Corbyn was talking in Peterborough about free movement

:20:39.:20:45.

and wage caps, his campaign director was messaging about the prices in

:20:46.:20:48.

the health service. It is extraordinary that he was sending

:20:49.:20:58.

messages about that on twitter, rather than addressing that huge

:20:59.:21:01.

crisis today, he was saying one thing and his campaign director was

:21:02.:21:07.

saying another. It was the perfect opportunity to take on the NHS

:21:08.:21:13.

question head-on. That is about spin. It is about substance. I do

:21:14.:21:17.

not think so, we have been doing a great job on the health service. The

:21:18.:21:23.

Shadow Health Secretary... This was a major speech. You are saying that

:21:24.:21:29.

Jeremy cannot talk about health care and inequality and Brexit.

:21:30.:21:34.

Unfortunately this country is in such a pickle at the moment that it

:21:35.:21:39.

is is responsibility to speak about all of these things. Do you think it

:21:40.:21:45.

went well today for the ideal positive that Jeremy has spoken

:21:46.:21:49.

authentically and spoken from his heart, directly to people and the

:21:50.:21:53.

biggest criticism that you can put to me is that it seemed a bit too

:21:54.:21:59.

unspun. We have an NHS crisis, criticism of the government Brexit

:22:00.:22:11.

strategy, Labour 27% rating. You're not very well because perhaps days

:22:12.:22:16.

like this happen and you appear to be going off cack handedly. You talk

:22:17.:22:20.

about spin by Jeremy spoke from the heart about values and vision and I

:22:21.:22:24.

think given the chance, he will speak directly to his audience and

:22:25.:22:28.

that will go well. And that would be twitter. That would be twitter. It

:22:29.:22:34.

is going to be more than twitter but we do have to speak more directly to

:22:35.:22:38.

people, no question about that. The question of wage inequality, there

:22:39.:22:44.

has been some developments and Chris Cook is here. Something came out

:22:45.:22:51.

from the ONS today, slightly poorly timed because it suggests that there

:22:52.:22:57.

has been quite good news on wage inequality. We have this graph

:22:58.:23:06.

showing the coefficient, the propensity of inequality for the

:23:07.:23:11.

population. What were drawn at the moment, these three major elections.

:23:12.:23:22.

What we can see is this gigantic surge in inequality under the

:23:23.:23:25.

Thatcher government, a slow retreat under Labour and then continued

:23:26.:23:32.

retreat recently. Basically since 2007 there has been ?1600 increase

:23:33.:23:40.

in the wages at the bottom fifth and ?1000 so for wages of the top. So

:23:41.:23:45.

actually inequality has been shifting since the financial crisis.

:23:46.:23:49.

And Jeremy Corbyn has been speaking about this a lot so presumably you

:23:50.:23:54.

would give credit to the Conservative government, since 2010,

:23:55.:23:58.

for bringing this inequality down. The figures you describe, forgive me

:23:59.:24:04.

they are a drop in the ocean. For people who cannot afford the rail

:24:05.:24:11.

hike, who cannot leave home in their 20s and buy a home, in real terms

:24:12.:24:22.

inequality is a gaping chasm in the country and ?1000 at the top just is

:24:23.:24:23.

not going to cut it. Thank you both. Donald Trump's son-in-law and close

:24:24.:24:25.

confidante Jared Kushner Yesterday his father in law gave

:24:26.:24:30.

the multi millionaire an early birthday present

:24:31.:24:33.

when he appointed him as a senior White House advisor -

:24:34.:24:35.

a reward perhaps for his tireless Kushner is a property developer

:24:36.:24:38.

and a newspaper owner,it is not yet clear whether he will have to divest

:24:39.:24:42.

himself of all his interests to take up the apparently unpaid

:24:43.:24:45.

hugely influential role. What's even less clear

:24:46.:24:47.

is Jared Kushner's politics. Here's our Diplomatic

:24:48.:24:49.

Editor Mark Urban. Some of the new Jersey property

:24:50.:25:00.

baron, Jared Kushner had a privileged upbringing. His path from

:25:01.:25:06.

Harvard in the family firm looked like plain sailing. Until 2005, when

:25:07.:25:12.

his father Charlie was convicted of tax evasion and witness tampering. I

:25:13.:25:23.

was there, Charlie was a well-respected member of his family

:25:24.:25:27.

and community. It was a terrible blow to the family. Jared as the

:25:28.:25:37.

second oldest child, it was hard for him and for his sisters and brother.

:25:38.:25:44.

The Kushner conviction sprang from vicious political and family

:25:45.:25:50.

rivalries. Mr Krishna engaged in a conspiracy. Some have claimed that

:25:51.:25:54.

this battle left Jared Kushner with a strong desire for revenge. There's

:25:55.:26:01.

definitely a psychological drama at play, a lot of people spoke about

:26:02.:26:08.

Kushner wanting revenge early in this election season. Now Chris

:26:09.:26:12.

Christie is nowhere in the picture when it comes to the Trump

:26:13.:26:19.

administration. In these cases, often there is at least a glimmer or

:26:20.:26:23.

grain of truth to these stories. We have seen both in Trump and Kushner

:26:24.:26:32.

a desire to get even. Hungry yet, or do we start another day. The life of

:26:33.:26:39.

Jared Kushner with turns of fortune feels a little like a 19th-century

:26:40.:26:42.

novel. It has been reported that his favourite book is indeed the Count

:26:43.:26:48.

of Monte Cristo. A saga of how unjust imprisonment leads the hero

:26:49.:26:53.

to amass a fortune and he spent a lifetime seeking revenge. Certainly

:26:54.:26:56.

his alliance through marriage with the Trump family has now brought him

:26:57.:27:02.

to the apex of political power. Jared is a very successful real

:27:03.:27:08.

estate agent but I think he likes politics more than real estate. He

:27:09.:27:13.

is very good at politics. Notoriously reluctant to give

:27:14.:27:18.

interviews, Kushner, who is Jewish, took to the pages of a newspaper he

:27:19.:27:23.

owns to desert -- to defend Trump against a charge of anti-Semitism

:27:24.:27:27.

during a campaign. One of the people you see behind you in the newsroom

:27:28.:27:31.

is Danish wards who broke the story for us and it shows you what I mean

:27:32.:27:36.

about a publisher who does not, is not heavy-handed. She wrote a piece

:27:37.:27:42.

questioning why Donald Trump, are clearly anti-Semitic element, come

:27:43.:27:51.

to support him. And Jared answered, no candidate can be held responsible

:27:52.:27:55.

for every one of their millions of supporters. But I know this guy and

:27:56.:28:00.

there is not a racist or anti-Semitic bone in his body. When

:28:01.:28:06.

Trump to the White House, his son-in-law was also there. Kushner

:28:07.:28:11.

was credited with designing a winning campaign on a shoestring and

:28:12.:28:14.

has knowledge of how Washington actually works is slight. Perhaps

:28:15.:28:20.

he's a very able person but we have no track record to judge that. He

:28:21.:28:24.

has no experience and he is coming this position by his family network

:28:25.:28:31.

and so he has got to prove himself. But it is not for nothing that there

:28:32.:28:37.

are anti-nepotism laws and it is not just this one relative, there are

:28:38.:28:41.

always relatives that Trump is putting into power very close to

:28:42.:28:45.

power, without appropriate Chinese walls. So it is a problem. If Jared

:28:46.:28:51.

Kushner has a tendency for extremism it is in the matter of family

:28:52.:28:55.

loyalty and that is what has made him indispensable to Donald Trump.

:28:56.:29:01.

As for his actual politics, he has exhibited what Henry Kissinger has

:29:02.:29:05.

characterised as a considerable degree of constructive ambiguity.

:29:06.:29:10.

Jared is that there are guy and listens to a lot of people and is

:29:11.:29:14.

willing to be persuaded but ultimately he is quite decisive. The

:29:15.:29:17.

Observer I think is the only newspaper in the country for example

:29:18.:29:21.

that endorsed both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in their respective

:29:22.:29:27.

primaries. That shows not only the ideological diversity but that we

:29:28.:29:31.

pick winners. Not forgetting the Count of Monte Cristo. After the

:29:32.:29:36.

Trump victory, Chris Christie, the man expected to organise the new

:29:37.:29:40.

administration, but who had gloated when the father of Jared Kushner was

:29:41.:29:48.

convicted, was fired. Is it my turn? It is. When it comes to the new

:29:49.:29:52.

White House and the influence on Trump, many in high hopes on his

:29:53.:29:59.

special adviser, just 35 years old. Many people in Washington and New

:30:00.:30:05.

York found some comfort that Jared Kushner was going to be in the ear

:30:06.:30:10.

of Donald Trump before big decisions are made. So much of what Trump said

:30:11.:30:15.

on the campaign trail was so toxic and frightening and yet can see is

:30:16.:30:22.

someone who is soft-spoken, he is moderate, in some ways he is a

:30:23.:30:27.

progressive. And off some of the hard edges of Donald Trump. In the

:30:28.:30:31.

dwindling days of the Obama presidency, many in Washington are

:30:32.:30:35.

anxious. The President-elect could not be more different in style and

:30:36.:30:39.

one reason why they now pin their hopes on those around Trump.

:30:40.:30:43.

Carrie Fisher died less than a fortnight ago,

:30:44.:30:45.

but in the minds for Disney movie moguls - and Star Wars fans -

:30:46.:30:48.

she is very much alive and with what might be regarded

:30:49.:30:51.

as unseemly haste Disney is negotiating with the actor's

:30:52.:30:53.

estate over her continued appearance in the franchise.

:30:54.:30:55.

If Disney gets the go ahead Carrie Fisher will join

:30:56.:30:58.

Peter Cushing, who last month, 15 years after his death,

:30:59.:31:01.

played a key role in Rogue One as Grand Moff Tarkin.

:31:02.:31:05.

With computers, anything is possible, but is it desirable?

:31:06.:31:09.

While some living actors are contracting over the use

:31:10.:31:11.

of their image when they die, others - like Robin Williams,

:31:12.:31:14.

who killed himself in 2014 - explicitly banned the commercial use

:31:15.:31:17.

There wasn't much that could be done when an actor died

:31:18.:31:31.

Patience, it's not one of our virtues.

:31:32.:31:35.

Peter Sellers was resurrected as Inspector Clouseau in the Trail

:31:36.:31:38.

of the Pink Panther using deleted footage from previous films

:31:39.:31:45.

in the series and a stand-in with bandages on his head.

:31:46.:31:47.

When Brandon Lee died on the set of The Crow,

:31:48.:31:50.

he appeared courtesy of stunt doubles and basic special effects.

:31:51.:31:53.

But the advent of CGI has meant that some of our stars never fade.

:31:54.:31:57.

When Oliver Reed was involved in a fatal drinking competition

:31:58.:32:02.

before he'd finished filming Gladiator, production had

:32:03.:32:04.

They also used a body double and CGI to complete the project.

:32:05.:32:12.

The ethics of using technology to include deceased actors in films

:32:13.:32:15.

after they've committed to a project are one thing.

:32:16.:32:19.

But things get a little bit trickier when the project is instigated

:32:20.:32:22.

It's safe to say that Audrey Hepburn never appeared in an advert selling

:32:23.:32:30.

Would she have wanted her image used in such a way?

:32:31.:32:36.

In last year's Star Wars film, Rogue One, Peter Cushing,

:32:37.:32:43.

who died in 1994, was brought back to life.

:32:44.:32:45.

His character was crucial to the story, and his estate gave

:32:46.:32:48.

A young Princess Leia, as played by Carrie Fisher,

:32:49.:32:55.

also popped up at the end of the film.

:32:56.:32:57.

But her death just before Christmas poses a conundrum

:32:58.:33:00.

The next instalment is in the can, but the last episode hasn't

:33:01.:33:06.

Could anyone else play such an iconic role?

:33:07.:33:11.

So, will she be brought back to life for the final instalment

:33:12.:33:17.

We're joined by Tim Webber, who is the chief creative

:33:18.:33:24.

officer at Framestore - the Bafta and Oscar-awarding winning

:33:25.:33:27.

visual effects studio, and Anna Smith, the president

:33:28.:33:29.

Good evening to you both. Anna, first of all, argue squeamish --

:33:30.:33:44.

argue squeamish about keeping actors alive for commercial gain? Yes,

:33:45.:33:50.

especially in that advert with Audrey Hepburn, it feels slightly

:33:51.:33:55.

queasy and strange to see them recreated, albeit brilliantly. It is

:33:56.:34:00.

too uncanny. If an actor sadly dies in the middle of making a film they

:34:01.:34:04.

have already consented to being, it would be their wish to continue with

:34:05.:34:07.

that, but to completely recreate them is another matter. I wonder

:34:08.:34:13.

what you would say to that, because Framestore is one of the companies

:34:14.:34:17.

that can do this stuff, but it is no longer a performance by an actor. It

:34:18.:34:22.

is still a performance by an actor, but that will be a different one. It

:34:23.:34:31.

is a recreated actor. I look at it as essentially digital make-up. It

:34:32.:34:34.

is another actor, not Peter Cushing, but he is wearing digital make-up.

:34:35.:34:42.

That is different to people dressing up when they are giving performances

:34:43.:34:47.

as the Queen or as... But they are alive. Or as Winston Churchill.

:34:48.:34:54.

People wear make up and try and become other people will stop it is

:34:55.:35:00.

part of acting. If it was the case that the whole Indiana Jones

:35:01.:35:03.

franchise were rebooted in 20 years, and people thought, we have to have

:35:04.:35:07.

Harrison Ford in this role, you would have no qualms about that? I

:35:08.:35:12.

would have qualms. It is a nuanced thing to do and it depends on fire

:35:13.:35:16.

you are doing it and how you do it. But I also think it's not really up

:35:17.:35:22.

to us to judge whether that should happen or not. I think it is hard to

:35:23.:35:27.

know who can judge when someone is dead, but the estate of the person,

:35:28.:35:31.

I think, are probably the best people to make the call. Anna. Is

:35:32.:35:39.

the estate the best person? Only the actor can judge. The performances

:35:40.:35:43.

are so nuanced and a lot of it is about empathy. You think about the

:35:44.:35:47.

great performances of our time, and often they are whimsical and cannot

:35:48.:35:55.

be recreated easily. I heard that Carrie Fisher altered her Star Wars

:35:56.:35:58.

scripts - that obviously can't happen if she is going to be, as it

:35:59.:36:03.

were, recreated for the last one in the franchise. It won't be the

:36:04.:36:08.

Carrie Fisher, the personality of Carrie Fisher. Absolutely. I can see

:36:09.:36:14.

the conundrum. If I were them, I would find a smaller role so that if

:36:15.:36:18.

there is a CGI Carrie Fisher, at least it is not a huge role. Is

:36:19.:36:23.

there an issue in this precarious profession that keeping going with

:36:24.:36:29.

the whole lot is actually rather uncreative, when you think of the

:36:30.:36:34.

new lot coming through. That certainly is a danger, and I think

:36:35.:36:38.

the film industry has a tendency to be uncreative and to stick to

:36:39.:36:42.

proving things from the past. -- things that are proven. A film star

:36:43.:36:50.

is far more than just a visit, it is the performance. That will not be

:36:51.:36:58.

Peter Cushing's performance. It might be a fine performance by a

:36:59.:37:02.

contemporary actor, but it is not Peter Cushing. By a doppelganger.

:37:03.:37:07.

The actor who was anonymous, because he does not get credit for his

:37:08.:37:11.

performance, is digitally enhanced himself, or herself, and then

:37:12.:37:16.

elements of Peter Cushing's face are recreated? That's correct.

:37:17.:37:21.

Essentially, they are made to look like Peter Cushing, which also does

:37:22.:37:24.

involvement appellation of the performance, to a small extent, just

:37:25.:37:32.

little ticks have to feel like they are Peter Cushing. It is complex. Do

:37:33.:37:37.

you think it alters the audience responds when they know what they

:37:38.:37:42.

are watching is something that is incredibly skilfully done, and they

:37:43.:37:48.

might be taken up more by seeing how good the technology is than by

:37:49.:37:51.

having an emotional connection with the character? When an actor is

:37:52.:37:57.

deceased, you cannot help but be aware when they are so famous. It

:37:58.:38:01.

takes the audience out of it. A lot of people said about the last Star

:38:02.:38:04.

Wars film that it gave them a joke. It takes them out of the story a

:38:05.:38:09.

bit. It makes it more like animate something, less like a naturalistic

:38:10.:38:16.

human performance. It must. It certainly can be distracting, and I

:38:17.:38:20.

think it is important to use it in the right way at the right time. It

:38:21.:38:25.

can be distracting, but I don't think it need necessarily be less

:38:26.:38:28.

like a human performance. That depends on the scale and techniques

:38:29.:38:33.

that are used to create it. And I don't think we are there get. I have

:38:34.:38:38.

looked at that Peter Cushing performance, and I look that you're

:38:39.:38:42.

making of the Peter Cushing, and of course, I'm looking for everything

:38:43.:38:45.

to think about whether or not it is the real person. It is very hard to

:38:46.:38:52.

recreate a human. It is incredibly hard. It wasn't as who may Peter

:38:53.:38:58.

Cushing. I don't think the skills have got to the point where it is

:38:59.:39:02.

absolutely believable as a human being yet. Would you like to see

:39:03.:39:05.

Carrie Fisher in the last of the franchise? I would, but not too much

:39:06.:39:12.

because it would be distracting. I agree that a little bit would be a

:39:13.:39:15.

good thing. It is important to have continuity to the story, but not too

:39:16.:39:20.

much. Thank you both very much indeed. A quick look at the front

:39:21.:39:31.

pages: The woman who is at the head of the Whitworth in Manchester is to

:39:32.:39:35.

become the Cape's first female director. In the Telegraph: Carbon's

:39:36.:39:40.

migration policy in disarray. We leave you with Ed Sheeran's

:39:41.:39:51.

new release, Castle on a Hill. In a daring artistic move first

:39:52.:39:56.

spotted by Facebook group Made in Poor Taste, Sheeran

:39:57.:39:59.

has decided to rework the classic acoustic anthem

:40:00.:40:01.

"Freelove Freeway" by David Brent. We'll leave you to decide

:40:02.:40:04.

which version is better. # I was running from my

:40:05.:40:11.

brother and his... # Pretty girl on the hood

:40:12.:40:15.

of a Cadillac, yeah... # Running from the law

:40:16.:40:18.

through the backfields and... # Tasting the sweet

:40:19.:40:20.

perfume # Of the mountain

:40:21.:40:25.

grass I rolled down... # Take a look at her engine starting

:40:26.:40:31.

# I leave her purring # Free love on the

:40:32.:40:34.

freelove freeway # The love is free

:40:35.:40:39.

and the freeway is long # Driving at 90

:40:40.:40:42.

down those country lanes # Going home cos my

:40:43.:40:49.

baby's gone Good evening. It will be a cold and

:40:50.:41:17.

windy start to Wednesday. Gusts could reach 70 mph. There could be

:41:18.:41:21.

travel disruption. The wind will bring showers with it, into the

:41:22.:41:25.

northern half of the UK in particular. Some of those will be

:41:26.:41:29.

wintry on high ground. The snow will be blowing around. There will be

:41:30.:41:33.

some dry and bright intervals, but blustery into the afternoon. Also

:41:34.:41:37.

blustery in northern England, with a scattering of showers. The strongest

:41:38.:41:41.

winds will be to the east of the Pennines. Not many showers here, and

:41:42.:41:46.

largely dry in East Anglia and the south-east. Some cloud and some

:41:47.:41:50.

sunshine. A windy afternoon, Chile too. Through showers in the

:41:51.:41:58.

south-west. A lot of dry weather. Pretty windy through the afternoon.

:41:59.:42:05.

Similar across most of Wales. A good scattering of showers in Northern

:42:06.:42:08.

Ireland, windy through the afternoon. Another windy day on

:42:09.:42:12.

Thursday. If anything, it gets colder weather fronts coming in from

:42:13.:42:16.

the south and north. Both are likely to bring some snow with them. A

:42:17.:42:18.

windy

:42:19.:42:19.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Did Jeremy Corbyn's policy launch go a bit wrong? Trump's son-in-law gets a top job - who is Jared Kushner? And should Carrie Fisher be resurrected by CGI?