The Home Front: The Battle to House Britain Newsnight


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The Home Front: The Battle to House Britain

Emily Maitlis hosts a Newsnight special dedicated to the UK housing crisis. The government says the housing market is 'broken' as it brings forward its Housing White Paper.


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The first peoples houses are ready for Harold Macmillan to inspect.

:00:20.:00:27.

Built in 12 weeks for less than ?1000 each. You don't have to have

:00:28.:00:35.

great architecture to make a great place to live. But Londoners could

:00:36.:00:46.

learn to be grateful that so much of the new architecture has been as

:00:47.:00:52.

good as this. The leader of the GLC looked on as Mrs Thatcher defended

:00:53.:00:58.

their sales policy. She left to a chorus of chance. It is very

:00:59.:01:05.

depressing. When they say the price range,... Two-bedroom flats in this

:01:06.:01:12.

Chelsea Street are going for seven times their original price. It is

:01:13.:01:20.

about making money, why should I feel bad? The government said it had

:01:21.:01:26.

cut the average cost of a mortgage by 100 and pounds per month from

:01:27.:01:32.

1990. House prices have gone up so much that you cannot get a deposit

:01:33.:01:36.

together, you cannot get a mortgage from a bank or building society.

:01:37.:01:42.

Everything is too expensive. We need every single penny. It is gone

:01:43.:01:53.

before we even think about it. For far too long, we have not built

:01:54.:01:59.

enough houses. Relative to population size, Britain has had

:02:00.:02:03.

Western Europe's lowest rate of house building for three decades.

:02:04.:02:17.

Not every job comes with its own central London accommodation -

:02:18.:02:22.

rent free and walking distance to work.

:02:23.:02:24.

Britain's housing crisis is legendary: Unaffordable,

:02:25.:02:25.

unattainable and - it sometimes feels - insolvable.

:02:26.:02:31.

Tonight, we dedicate the whole programme to housing -

:02:32.:02:33.

hearing from people forced into emergency accommodation, people

:02:34.:02:35.

who can't afford to buy a home, and people seeking radical measures

:02:36.:02:38.

to stop second home owners where they live.

:02:39.:02:40.

We'll get reaction from the Housing Minister.

:02:41.:02:42.

And I'll be asking him what the government's plans today

:02:43.:02:44.

House prices are a national obsession for good reason.

:02:45.:02:56.

An average terraced house in England and Wales cost ?41,000 in 1995.

:02:57.:03:01.

A similar house in London moved in price from ?74,000 in 1995, to

:03:02.:03:10.

Had the price of hamburgers risen with house prices

:03:11.:03:17.

over that time, a Big Mac would now cost ?7.75.

:03:18.:03:23.

Some of the effects of high house prices are

:03:24.:03:25.

For example the 2011 census revealed the first ever decline in

:03:26.:03:32.

Some of the effects though, are much more

:03:33.:03:36.

For example, academic research suggests that these high

:03:37.:03:41.

house prices are probably depressing the number of children that young

:03:42.:03:43.

It really matters in a very fundamental way that young

:03:44.:03:49.

people are currently paying very high rents to landlords and

:03:50.:03:54.

struggling to put together the deposit required to own their own

:03:55.:03:57.

Here is a graph showing how much London first-time buyers had to

:03:58.:04:02.

save in the late 1990s for a deposit.

:04:03.:04:10.

It starts just under 20% of their income.

:04:11.:04:14.

Now here is a line for the North West.

:04:15.:04:16.

It is lower down because things are bit easier there.

:04:17.:04:25.

In the north-west, it is 50%. This is partly about supply. This line

:04:26.:04:32.

shows the growth in the housing stock going back two centuries. You

:04:33.:04:36.

don't need to look too closely, what you need to notice is that we never

:04:37.:04:42.

get very far above 1% a year for very long. And, since the 1980s,

:04:43.:04:48.

that chronic problem of undersupply has got even worse. The green belt,

:04:49.:04:56.

we have identified areas of the country which are near to major

:04:57.:05:01.

centres of employment and underdeveloped and we have

:05:02.:05:05.

designated them as hard to build on. Furthermore, we had problems with

:05:06.:05:08.

local authorities. Remember, they are elected by people who live in

:05:09.:05:13.

areas now, not who live in them for years to come and that makes them

:05:14.:05:18.

against development. Some have even gone as far as the junior open

:05:19.:05:24.

population projections of the can planning applications.

:05:25.:05:26.

The Bank of England estimates that the

:05:27.:05:29.

cost of borrowing for someone with 25% equity in their house was 8.75%

:05:30.:05:32.

Then it was 5.6% in 2007, then 2.98% in 2017.

:05:33.:05:39.

That easy credit is a major part of explaining the

:05:40.:05:43.

There's plenty else for governments to do.

:05:44.:05:48.

While the share of people renting has risen, for example,

:05:49.:05:51.

the rules on renting don't really reflect that.

:05:52.:05:53.

Housing is an area that sees lots of little initiatives, but

:05:54.:05:57.

That was Chris Cook, our policy editor.

:05:58.:06:06.

He's with me now, as is our Political Editor, Nick Watt.

:06:07.:06:14.

We got that large package of measurements from the government

:06:15.:06:20.

today, how did they add up? The White Paper is very striking in the

:06:21.:06:25.

sense in which it echoes. The government accepts there is a

:06:26.:06:29.

housing crisis and accept that rents are too high and affordability is a

:06:30.:06:32.

problem and it says things like this is what we are worried about for the

:06:33.:06:37.

future and it is happening now. In that context, it is very striking,

:06:38.:06:44.

that the measures don't really seem to add up to the urgency of the

:06:45.:06:47.

message. There are for example, nothing much on the green belt, not

:06:48.:06:54.

a lot on rental regulation, what is most interesting, is quite an odd

:06:55.:07:03.

narrow bed. I mentioned in the package, some councils effectively

:07:04.:07:06.

forged their own estimates so they can say, we do not need those new

:07:07.:07:10.

houses and they can protect their own little corners. The government

:07:11.:07:14.

will not let them do that potentially as we go forward. What

:07:15.:07:19.

that might mean is you will end up with situations where green belt

:07:20.:07:22.

places in the north and north-west will suddenly find they have been

:07:23.:07:28.

told they need to build more houses and they will find they have a

:07:29.:07:31.

choice between identifying their beautiful town centres or building

:07:32.:07:35.

on what might be scrubby green belt and that might be a wedge by which

:07:36.:07:39.

we can move the argument about places we should protect and places

:07:40.:07:44.

we shouldn't protect going forwards. What do you think is driving this

:07:45.:07:49.

fundamentally? It is quite something when a government in its seventh

:07:50.:07:54.

year describes a fundamental area of as broken and that is what Theresa

:07:55.:08:07.

May has done in the White Paper. Is delivering on the commitment she

:08:08.:08:09.

made when she launched her bid for the Conservative leadership last

:08:10.:08:12.

summer. When she was trying to get and replace David Cameron, she

:08:13.:08:14.

almost cast herself as an opposition leader Wendy said she wanted to lead

:08:15.:08:17.

a country for everyone, not just the privileged few. She pledged sweeping

:08:18.:08:21.

programme of reform and near the top of the list was housing and there

:08:22.:08:24.

was a bit of a jibe at David Cameron, she said you would never

:08:25.:08:27.

solve that problem unless you narrowed the gap between those who

:08:28.:08:31.

inherit and those who do not inherit. Wind forward seven months,

:08:32.:08:37.

we have similar rhetoric today from the Prime Minister, but the big

:08:38.:08:42.

question is does it match the substance? There are Tories who are

:08:43.:08:46.

happy tonight that the green belt seems to be OK, but there are other

:08:47.:08:53.

Tories who are wondering whether Sajid Javid and Gavin Barwell, went

:08:54.:08:57.

back to first principles, dreamt up a grand plan, but essentially, the

:08:58.:09:04.

plan has come in under expectations. Take land banking, this is the

:09:05.:09:08.

hoarding of land by developers, one of the big things that really holds

:09:09.:09:12.

up house building and there are some people saying that unless you

:09:13.:09:15.

actually punished developers for according land for many years, you

:09:16.:09:20.

will never do with it. These concerns are being voiced by

:09:21.:09:22.

Conservatives, but there is one person who is able to talk freely

:09:23.:09:33.

and criticise the Shadow Housing Minister and I spoke to him earlier

:09:34.:09:35.

and this is what he told me. Today was a plan that was beyond

:09:36.:09:37.

belief and what we should have had from ministers was not a priority

:09:38.:09:40.

after seven years. Sajid Javid told the House

:09:41.:09:43.

of Commons to have a proper conversation about housing need

:09:44.:09:45.

and what we needed was a big programme to build more affordable

:09:46.:09:48.

homes to rent and to buy. Joining us here now,

:09:49.:09:55.

three people who speak for thousands more in the problems they've

:09:56.:10:05.

encountered finding a home. They'll put their concerns to

:10:06.:10:07.

Gavin Barwell, Minister for Housing, Sam Oakley, Nicola

:10:08.:10:10.

Stone, Camilla Hayle, Thank you very much for coming in

:10:11.:10:15.

and I am going to start with you Nicola. Try and claim to the

:10:16.:10:18.

Minister and those watching, what you are going through, your daily

:10:19.:10:21.

commute and your problems with housing. I moved out of private

:10:22.:10:27.

renting to live with my parents. I commute an hour and 20 and I am a

:10:28.:10:31.

teacher. I am trying to save money, that has been offset by the amount I

:10:32.:10:38.

paid to commute. That is each way, twice a day and you start work

:10:39.:10:41.

presumably early. Eight o'clock. It is a 12 hour day. Sam, give us a

:10:42.:10:47.

sense of where you are? My partner and I have been living together for

:10:48.:10:53.

a few years and we have good jobs, decent money, but we cannot save a

:10:54.:10:59.

penny, frankly. We save as much as we can but it is not anywhere near

:11:00.:11:03.

scratching the surface of what we need for a deposit. You are in

:11:04.:11:09.

private rented accommodation? Yes, for five years. I would save 40% of

:11:10.:11:14.

our income goes directly on rent. That is before taking into account

:11:15.:11:18.

other bills. Even though you're trying to buy as a couple? Exactly.

:11:19.:11:25.

We have looked at other options including shared ownership. The

:11:26.:11:30.

costs of that are staggering. Camilla, give us a sense of where

:11:31.:11:35.

you are? You moved back in with your mother. Yes. I have lived at home

:11:36.:11:39.

for seven years. I have been saving since then. I have got a healthy

:11:40.:11:44.

deposit but because of my income I cannot afford to buy a house that is

:11:45.:11:48.

suitable for my needs because I am disabled. I spoke to the council

:11:49.:11:52.

about their disabled accommodation and how I might be able to get help

:11:53.:11:55.

and they said I had saved too much money to

:11:56.:12:11.

get help from them, so I am stuck in accommodation that is not suitable.

:12:12.:12:16.

You're not even on the ground floor. Top floor and if I cannot walk at

:12:17.:12:19.

that time, I am stuck in the house for several weeks. What do you need

:12:20.:12:22.

to hear from the Minister and what do you want to see in the paper

:12:23.:12:25.

today that will start to solve the problem for you? I would like

:12:26.:12:27.

something that things about the predicament that disabled people are

:12:28.:12:29.

in, it is hard to get accommodation that suits our needs that is

:12:30.:12:32.

affordable. You have got all these restrictions. I have to be near

:12:33.:12:34.

family. We need something that helps disabled people that are working and

:12:35.:12:38.

trying to save and that gives them a boost. Sam is there enough in this

:12:39.:12:41.

document that you have seen that made you think that there was

:12:42.:12:45.

progress? I think the idea of building more houses is fantastic

:12:46.:12:48.

and building more houses on the green belt, if you ask anyone from

:12:49.:12:53.

my generation, they will welcome that warmly. That is a positive

:12:54.:12:57.

thing. The problem for us is the difference that that will make to

:12:58.:13:03.

house prices, that is so many years away. It will be a generation before

:13:04.:13:07.

that will have any impact. I like the lifetime- and think it is a

:13:08.:13:14.

great policy. I currently use the help to buy and the air nears you

:13:15.:13:17.

cannot use that until after a deposit so it does not help in that

:13:18.:13:22.

sense. The lifetime ISA will change that. It still feels a very long way

:13:23.:13:29.

away. Nicola, what do you want to get or here. What is missing. The

:13:30.:13:34.

main thing that struck me is the idea of building homes on the right

:13:35.:13:39.

places, but but -- but I think that working in a certain area, I want to

:13:40.:13:43.

be near enough to my community as a teacher so that I can be a part of

:13:44.:13:47.

it and that is not necessarily possible if you work in London or

:13:48.:13:52.

anywhere that has high housing pricing. Whether there is scope to

:13:53.:13:56.

build in the right place for me is something that is really important.

:13:57.:14:00.

There is a lot of optimism from these people. That is despite

:14:01.:14:04.

government recognising that this is a crisis and that your shadow was

:14:05.:14:10.

not quite so generous. He said it was a feeble document. Lord Kennedy

:14:11.:14:15.

said it is a Lemsip approach. There was so much expectation on this.

:14:16.:14:19.

There was so much acknowledgement of the problem and a half-hearted

:14:20.:14:25.

attempt today to solve it. I would not describe it as half-hearted. It

:14:26.:14:28.

is not surprising that the Labour Party will not welcome the proposal

:14:29.:14:33.

but if you look at the reaction from Shelter or the chartered Institute

:14:34.:14:35.

of Housing, they have John Healey called it a white flag,

:14:36.:14:49.

he said you have surrendered. You know that people like this are never

:14:50.:14:53.

going to buy a house before the age of 40 so it is all about renting. We

:14:54.:14:58.

have not surrendered, there is a change of emphasis. Historically

:14:59.:15:04.

people spoke of the party of home ownership. But we have to have an

:15:05.:15:08.

offer to people who are renting as well. So why did you not go further

:15:09.:15:15.

on some of the things that Labour has done? Labour is saying returned

:15:16.:15:18.

to regulation of the Private rental market. Looking at history you can

:15:19.:15:25.

see where that leads, a smaller rental sector. We are trying to

:15:26.:15:34.

change the market, banning and front cost and trying to encourage new

:15:35.:15:38.

people into building private rented accommodation with greater security.

:15:39.:15:44.

So there is a package to try to make renting more secure and affordable.

:15:45.:15:50.

You talked about 30 years of inaction and then all the words you

:15:51.:15:55.

use today are about encouraging or examining the operations for

:15:56.:16:00.

reforming the system and developing contributions, consulting, closely

:16:01.:16:05.

monitoring, obligating utility companies. These are incredibly

:16:06.:16:15.

tentative. Consulting on requiring local authorities, I could go on but

:16:16.:16:19.

nothing that says there any commitment. There are some clear

:16:20.:16:24.

commitments and the white paper. For example introducing a standard

:16:25.:16:28.

methodology for how we calculate and making sure local councils do not

:16:29.:16:33.

stop those tough decisions and release land. What about land

:16:34.:16:37.

banking, that could have been so simple. What to think we could have

:16:38.:16:44.

done? Put a tax on it. You have 200,000 homes you know RMT, why

:16:45.:16:48.

cannot these three people move to them tomorrow. First if you were

:16:49.:16:52.

running a development company you would need to have a land bank.

:16:53.:16:58.

Shareholders need that. So it is less the existence of land banks but

:16:59.:17:02.

how big they are because it takes too long to starting a scheme to

:17:03.:17:06.

building it out. And for me the bigger problem is when they start on

:17:07.:17:11.

site it is too long to then build a scheme out. The white paper has

:17:12.:17:17.

specific proposals to make people build much quicker. People look at

:17:18.:17:23.

the Tory government and remember Thatcher, she promised everyone the

:17:24.:17:27.

right to buy and you are promising everyone access to a consultation

:17:28.:17:31.

and these guys have acknowledged that even if new building began

:17:32.:17:35.

tomorrow it is too late for them. We're promising far more than a

:17:36.:17:44.

consultation. Just something short of 40,000 people have helped to buy

:17:45.:17:50.

their own home. So you're happy customer not at all, the white paper

:17:51.:17:53.

is clear we have made progress but nowhere near good enough. If all

:17:54.:17:57.

three of the people you have tonight on the panel who live in south

:17:58.:18:01.

London as I do, and they represent thousands shut out by the housing

:18:02.:18:06.

market. So I'm not going to sit and say I'm satisfied. Ayew reassured?

:18:07.:18:11.

To a certain degree, I think the main problem is the generational

:18:12.:18:18.

issue. And also the costs going into buying a house, if we could get a

:18:19.:18:25.

deposit together then it is an extra 15 grand in fees on top of that.

:18:26.:18:33.

Whether stamp duty or whatever. It would've been great to see something

:18:34.:18:38.

on duty. Whether it helps old people downsize or helps young people get

:18:39.:18:42.

into their first home. I would like to have seen that in that paper. We

:18:43.:18:48.

are taking action on stamp duty to reform the system so ordinary people

:18:49.:18:51.

are paying less than they would have paid a few years ago. Of course I

:18:52.:18:56.

understand it is an additional cost. We need to make the home buying

:18:57.:19:01.

system fairer. Do you want to come back one other point is that the

:19:02.:19:07.

Minister has made? I think there has been nothing there for disabled

:19:08.:19:10.

people. And there are young disabled people just like me with the same

:19:11.:19:14.

problems these guys have but then our own problems on top. Just

:19:15.:19:20.

nothing, that is not considered a lot of the time in policies. This is

:19:21.:19:27.

a concern, we changed this area of policy so now there are

:19:28.:19:30.

accessibility standards that councils are required to use. There

:19:31.:19:35.

are higher standards that they can apply. It is not the case that you

:19:36.:19:40.

need every home to be at the higher level. If we did it would make the

:19:41.:19:45.

supply problem worse. But we need to make sure there are sufficient homes

:19:46.:19:50.

for people like Camilla. She lives in London and the Greater London

:19:51.:19:54.

authority has applied these standards. But she raises an

:19:55.:19:59.

important point, not just about the total number of homes but getting

:20:00.:20:03.

the right mix of homes for the changing demography of our

:20:04.:20:04.

population. Thank you for coming in. We're going to keep the minister

:20:05.:20:07.

here as we explore what happens In the next film we meet three

:20:08.:20:10.

individuals, each kicked out of their private lodging,

:20:11.:20:14.

when things got tough. In one case, with

:20:15.:20:16.

a two day old baby. They were residents of

:20:17.:20:18.

Waltham Forest in North East London, They were moved out

:20:19.:20:21.

to the Hertfordshire town of Welwyn Garden City and given

:20:22.:20:26.

a studio room in which to This is Boundary house,

:20:27.:20:29.

Welwyn Garden City, There is 45 studio flats

:20:30.:21:02.

here and as I know, This is the single room where me

:21:03.:21:23.

and my two kids sleep. This is a studio flat,

:21:24.:21:38.

and you've got two children? My partner and I were living

:21:39.:21:43.

in a property with the kids and he got into some trouble

:21:44.:22:01.

and he's in prison at the moment. And they evicted me

:22:02.:22:06.

from the property because it was And I got evicted, went

:22:07.:22:08.

to the council, spent Until about 6:30 in the evening

:22:09.:22:12.

they told me they were sending I'd never heard

:22:13.:22:20.

of this place before. What did the council said,

:22:21.:22:23.

because presumably you've spoken to the council

:22:24.:22:24.

about the cramped conditions here? Yes, I e-mailed them

:22:25.:22:28.

because when you phone them, I e-mailed them from October

:22:29.:22:30.

and nobody responded to me. Why did you move

:22:31.:22:36.

here, what happened? I don't know, I put in a request

:22:37.:23:15.

for emergency accommodation. I've lived the last, what, ten years

:23:16.:23:18.

in the borough, in Waltham Forest. And I have obviously a connection

:23:19.:23:32.

there, I studied there, My whole family is there,

:23:33.:23:34.

my whole family. I have no-one within minimum an hour

:23:35.:23:37.

from here, no-one at all. My biggest worry is the heating,

:23:38.:23:41.

obviously because, like, she needs to sleep warm at night

:23:42.:23:45.

and she doesn't. I mean, if I'm cold,

:23:46.:23:49.

I can imagine how she is. I don't even know how

:23:50.:23:51.

it functions properly. It has come on, which was probably

:23:52.:23:57.

four days ago the last The day I was discharged

:23:58.:24:07.

from the hospital I came here around Right, there was electric and gas,

:24:08.:24:11.

but there was no heating. So I phoned the emergency number

:24:12.:24:18.

at ten o'clock at night and let And the room was freezing cold

:24:19.:24:21.

and they said all they can They said they would get back

:24:22.:24:28.

to me in the morning. 11 o'clock came and no one came

:24:29.:24:35.

so I had to phone them again and they said they had

:24:36.:24:38.

no message recorded. Abigail, I've just been visiting

:24:39.:25:07.

some of the women in the block. They've been moved here

:25:08.:25:10.

from central London. Can you tell me how long

:25:11.:25:12.

you've been here for? I've been here for

:25:13.:25:16.

almost three years. So this year in March will be three

:25:17.:25:18.

years since I've been here. How did you end up

:25:19.:25:24.

here, what happened? I used to rent privately

:25:25.:25:36.

and the landlord realised I was pregnant and he didn't want

:25:37.:25:39.

any babies in the property. And the council was like, we don't

:25:40.:25:42.

have any properties available, the only thing we can do is just

:25:43.:25:49.

send you off to Hertfordshire. Basically everything

:25:50.:25:58.

is in the same room. The kitchen, the bedroom,

:25:59.:26:00.

the sitting room, everything, And then this is basically

:26:01.:26:04.

the living room which is I work in London as well so it

:26:05.:26:12.

hasn't been easy for me to keep Travelling like, 20 miles to work

:26:13.:26:20.

every day is a nightmare. I spend more than half my wages

:26:21.:26:26.

on transportation fees. My older daughter, Maya,

:26:27.:26:36.

she knows that way we live is different from where most people

:26:37.:26:41.

live because every time we go to other places there is a separate

:26:42.:26:44.

kitchen and a separate bathroom and a separate living

:26:45.:26:47.

room and bedroom. She notices the difference

:26:48.:26:50.

between there and this place. Obviously she's a girl growing up,

:26:51.:26:54.

she wants to play around, she wants to have a normal life

:26:55.:26:57.

like a little girl, Waltham Forest council told us

:26:58.:27:00.

they do all they can to house people in the borough and it's working

:27:01.:27:18.

to repair any substandard Joining me now, Roger

:27:19.:27:20.

Harding from Shelter, And Gavin Barwell,

:27:21.:27:23.

Housing Minister. Your thoughts? There is the most

:27:24.:27:35.

shocking illustration of the scale of the problem we're trying to

:27:36.:27:39.

tackle. Going back years ago the most common reason for homelessness

:27:40.:27:43.

would be relationship breakdown and today it is people losing private

:27:44.:27:48.

rented sector tenancy. The last lady in the clip is someone who is

:27:49.:27:53.

working. She had a job but simply cannot find any accommodation she

:27:54.:28:00.

can afford. This is everywhere, something you've recognised

:28:01.:28:04.

throughout the UK. Throughout the country and not confined to London.

:28:05.:28:08.

Seen the full range of the housing crisis from people at the sharpest

:28:09.:28:14.

end of it. To raise children in one room, younger people priced out,

:28:15.:28:19.

children living at home with their parents longer than they should have

:28:20.:28:23.

too. Could this be solved if more council homes were built? Definitely

:28:24.:28:31.

but also a range of genuinely affordable homes. We're not good

:28:32.:28:34.

enough and the homes we are building are not affordable at the moment to

:28:35.:28:39.

many people on low to middle incomes. One of the reasons for that

:28:40.:28:44.

is land is too expensive. We have a development model that encourages

:28:45.:28:49.

developer -- developers to bid for Elan. The one who wins is the most

:28:50.:28:57.

bullish about what they can charge and minimising contributions to the

:28:58.:29:02.

local community. The simplest way then to get that supply of housing,

:29:03.:29:07.

the easiest way to allocate housing to those who need it and make it

:29:08.:29:12.

fair and affordable is to let councils build. That is part of the

:29:13.:29:16.

answer and the white paper says that. It is not the only solution,

:29:17.:29:22.

because people want the opportunity to own themselves. But if you look

:29:23.:29:27.

at the rising level of homelessness that is definitely part of the

:29:28.:29:31.

answer. But at the moment there is the borrowing cap. They can do that

:29:32.:29:36.

through housing companies, there is extra money in the white paper and

:29:37.:29:42.

also housing associations can help people. There's an added ?1.4

:29:43.:29:45.

billion in the Autumn Statement and Willis and also to housing charities

:29:46.:29:49.

that said the budget was just shared ownership. At the moment they cannot

:29:50.:29:56.

increase the amount they borrow because it goes on to the national

:29:57.:29:58.

sum. Why not let them...? this is something for future

:29:59.:30:11.

generations, it is not about more debt for the country, it is about

:30:12.:30:16.

solving the crisis. It is additional government borrowing and we need to

:30:17.:30:19.

find other ways to get around the problem. It's if you look at the

:30:20.:30:23.

capital budget we have for housing, we are going to double it. They do

:30:24.:30:25.

not even keep the proceeds from right to buy. Why could they

:30:26.:30:55.

not keep 100%. We use some of that money to pay off debt but we give

:30:56.:30:58.

them enough money to replace it. Historically with Right To Buy, it

:30:59.:31:00.

helped people, but the homes were not replaced and since we

:31:01.:31:02.

reinvigorated it, we have insisted that those homes need to be

:31:03.:31:04.

replaced. The consequence of not doing this issue push more people

:31:05.:31:07.

into the private sector. You have admitted you cannot regulate it

:31:08.:31:09.

enough. We need more affordable housing. We are doing that, putting

:31:10.:31:12.

an extra money and the budget is increasing. The money that we have

:31:13.:31:14.

given, is the biggest ever budget London has had for affordable

:31:15.:31:16.

housing. The new money is definitely very welcome. It is great to see. We

:31:17.:31:19.

could be a lot more ambitious on this. After the Second World War,

:31:20.:31:24.

the country was genuinely on the verge of bankruptcy, we managed to

:31:25.:31:28.

have the ambition to build a huge new generation council homes, and we

:31:29.:31:35.

build a wide variety of homes and we have lost that will and drive to

:31:36.:31:39.

create that. The White Paper today asks a lot of the right questions,

:31:40.:31:44.

but what I would really like to see from the government is that the

:31:45.:31:47.

government comes up with answers because it is a consultation, not a

:31:48.:31:52.

firm set of proposals. It is hard to know what it will deliver at the

:31:53.:31:56.

moment and we need quicker answers. We talked about being brave and

:31:57.:32:01.

ambitious five years ago, you have had thousands of consultations and

:32:02.:32:05.

recognise the problem, at what point do you do something that is

:32:06.:32:11.

recognised to be a really bold and ambitious, radical move? I don't

:32:12.:32:16.

admit that. First of all, we have done a lot, we inherited the lowest

:32:17.:32:19.

level of house building since the 1920s and it has gone up but it is

:32:20.:32:23.

not high enough. If you look at how you need to improve performance,

:32:24.:32:28.

what you are looking for is a silver bullet, a single thing... I don't

:32:29.:32:31.

think you can call it that after you have been tackling the problem for

:32:32.:32:37.

30 years and you have been in government for seven years. It is a

:32:38.:32:42.

slow flying paper aeroplane! We need a lot of different policy

:32:43.:32:46.

interventions to release more land, speed up the process to building and

:32:47.:32:49.

to diversify the range of people building homes that is what are

:32:50.:32:55.

doing. We have done this before and we are seeing across Europe, lots of

:32:56.:32:58.

other countries who are building significantly more than us and have

:32:59.:33:02.

ramped up far quicker than we have done at the moment because they have

:33:03.:33:06.

given this more of a political push then we have seen to date. We have

:33:07.:33:11.

seen more action there and in Scotland as well around creating...

:33:12.:33:15.

It is fear of doing anything that will upset the Tory days when you

:33:16.:33:20.

talk about the green belt even though it is not exactly a stately

:33:21.:33:25.

home. I agree with you entirely. It is about political priority and

:33:26.:33:28.

Theresa May has ramped up this issue. She spoke passionately

:33:29.:33:33.

outside the door of Number 10 about making this a country that works for

:33:34.:33:37.

everyone and you can only do it if you fix the broken -- Brogan has a

:33:38.:33:39.

market. What happens though if the housing

:33:40.:33:41.

problem in this country has become too big to solve with normal

:33:42.:33:44.

tweaks and adjustments. Grant Shapps - a fellow Tory -

:33:45.:33:46.

admitted today the need had come for radical change -

:33:47.:33:49.

unless we wanted to carry on having the same conversation

:33:50.:33:51.

for another five years. Some parts of the country have

:33:52.:33:53.

taken market regulation into their own hands -

:33:54.:33:55.

drastic measures to cut down on out of towners buying up all the most

:33:56.:33:58.

juicy housing stock. Evan Davies heads to both

:33:59.:34:01.

St Ives, in Cornwall, and the island of Jersey,

:34:02.:34:03.

to see what plans the locals have cooked up, to keep

:34:04.:34:05.

things affordable. Jersey may be famous

:34:06.:34:20.

for its picturesque views, But like the UK it's far more

:34:21.:34:22.

a financial services economy In fact, it's a tiny

:34:23.:34:27.

microcosm of Britain. It's only 100,000 people,

:34:28.:34:37.

but it's well off and a magnet The other feature of this place

:34:38.:34:40.

is that it's very densely populated. It doesn't always feel like it,

:34:41.:34:52.

but it's actually three times We could take another

:34:53.:34:54.

100 million people and still be So it's crowded, lots of people

:34:55.:34:58.

want to come here, that creates So complex rules here governed

:34:59.:35:03.

the allocation of homes. Providing a form of immigration

:35:04.:35:12.

control and protecting the locals. You either qualify as having full

:35:13.:35:17.

access to the housing A local estate agent

:35:18.:35:19.

explain the basics. As a qualified local you are free

:35:20.:35:26.

to rent or purchase any property, there is no entry level,

:35:27.:35:31.

there is no ceiling. As an unqualified person

:35:32.:35:33.

or somebody new to the island, that's not coming here

:35:34.:35:40.

through an employer, they unfortunately had to rent

:35:41.:35:44.

at the lower end of the market and spend ten continuous years

:35:45.:35:50.

here paying tax before they then become a entitled to purchase

:35:51.:35:52.

anything and everything. So we have a ten year

:35:53.:35:56.

qualifying period before It's the development of 35 one

:35:57.:36:00.

and a half bedroom units It is the same story

:36:01.:36:13.

with social housing, also allocated with long-term

:36:14.:36:16.

residents in mind. How do I get a social

:36:17.:36:18.

property if I'm in Jersey? Well, you firstly need to meet

:36:19.:36:22.

the criteria to be classed as residentially qualified,

:36:23.:36:24.

so that's the ten years residency. And then the following on from that

:36:25.:36:28.

come you need to apply to the affordable housing gateway

:36:29.:36:31.

which has another set of criteria which just helps us ascertain

:36:32.:36:34.

the level of need that you're actually in in order to access

:36:35.:36:37.

the market of social housing. You probably thought

:36:38.:36:42.

it was a market economy here. We control not only housing,

:36:43.:36:44.

so who can buy and who can rent, by the number of years that they've

:36:45.:36:52.

been here, we also control work and businesses through jobs licenses

:36:53.:36:56.

and the number of jobs that they can have, again determined by the length

:36:57.:37:00.

of time that somebody has been here. Francis is a tenant

:37:01.:37:06.

of the main social housing She's been here decades and worked

:37:07.:37:08.

hard as hotelier and feels I do feel I have worked

:37:09.:37:14.

and paid taxes and really, you know, when I needed help

:37:15.:37:20.

they were there to help me. Although before I had put a lot

:37:21.:37:26.

back into the community. Suppose that Jersey removed

:37:27.:37:29.

all the restrictions on housing A few more non-Jersey folk

:37:30.:37:31.

would move in, and a few more Jersey natives would move out,

:37:32.:37:43.

all would go off to college Well, we are used to markets

:37:44.:37:46.

and their inequalities. We know that the rich get nice cars

:37:47.:37:50.

and the poor maybe get none. Is it acceptable that locals can be

:37:51.:37:54.

priced out of their own community? From Jersey to Guernsey,

:37:55.:38:06.

even to Liechtenstein, micro-states have often controlled

:38:07.:38:09.

entry and ownership and it's been considered and acceptable

:38:10.:38:12.

form of self protection. But is something similar

:38:13.:38:17.

to the Jersey method relevant Well, toes are being put

:38:18.:38:19.

in the water here in Again, it's a nice place,

:38:20.:38:28.

lots of people want to be here. And wealthy second home for example

:38:29.:38:40.

want to buy houses here. The issue is not foreigners,

:38:41.:38:44.

but it is still about the balance between outsiders

:38:45.:38:46.

and permanent residents. There are two forms

:38:47.:38:48.

of housing which are excluded I think if we carry on the way

:38:49.:38:50.

we are, we are just about a generation away of St Ives

:38:51.:38:55.

becoming a ghost town. All those people who live here,

:38:56.:38:57.

turn this beautiful looking place into a thriving community,

:38:58.:39:00.

would not be able to live here, therefore they wouldn't

:39:01.:39:04.

be able to work here, the shops wouldn't get staff,

:39:05.:39:06.

the restaurants wouldn't get staff. And as I say, it would be shut

:39:07.:39:13.

for most of the year. Last May, they had a referendum

:39:14.:39:16.

on a local plan to change things. Any new build, from the time

:39:17.:39:19.

that the plan is made, and it was passed into law

:39:20.:39:25.

on the 29th of December, any new build has to be

:39:26.:39:29.

lived in as a whole. The effect is there

:39:30.:39:34.

will be two markets. For existing homes, an open

:39:35.:39:43.

market, and for new-build Only locals can buy new-build houses

:39:44.:39:45.

and they will only be able to sell The precise effects

:39:46.:39:51.

are hard to know. The whole thought process behind

:39:52.:39:58.

it is completely wrong. It is going to only increase second

:39:59.:40:00.

home value in the town, make it harder for affordability

:40:01.:40:03.

for the local people. And land value is going to remain

:40:04.:40:05.

very high, so the developers are going to disappear

:40:06.:40:08.

and go elsewhere. Now you can see the

:40:09.:40:10.

locals' difficulty. Even if they could build

:40:11.:40:16.

loads and loads and loads of extra homes around here,

:40:17.:40:18.

without ruining the place, well, it wouldn't solve the problem

:40:19.:40:22.

because all that would happen is lots and lots and lots

:40:23.:40:25.

of outsiders would come There is huge demand,

:40:26.:40:27.

that is why they think you have to have a rule

:40:28.:40:32.

about who gets the homes. What happens in St Ives doesn't

:40:33.:40:39.

necessarily stay in St Ives. London has some of the same

:40:40.:40:48.

problems, as do other crowded, Is it possible to contemplate

:40:49.:40:50.

that these other places might resort Joining us now, Deyan Sudjic,

:40:51.:40:54.

director of the Design Museum Daisy May Hudson, documentary-maker

:40:55.:41:04.

Patrik Schumacher, director and principal of Zaha Hadid

:41:05.:41:06.

Architects. A warm welcome to all of you. Is

:41:07.:41:18.

market intervention the right way to go? It is an emergency button but is

:41:19.:41:24.

it time to press it? I believe so. I am not speaking as an architect,

:41:25.:41:32.

acting professionally, but as a thinker and someone who is in

:41:33.:41:38.

various think tanks. I'm thinking about policy and thinking ahead and

:41:39.:41:41.

looking at the White Paper and finding it is not radical enough, I

:41:42.:41:45.

agree with the Labour Party, but it is not radical in another direction.

:41:46.:41:50.

I would expect market processes to solve a lot of these problems, where

:41:51.:41:56.

far too many restrictions are placed on developers. We are suspect to

:41:57.:42:05.

unit mixers... You think it is too restrictive for those who want to

:42:06.:42:10.

develop? I agree that the housing market is broken. But when you see

:42:11.:42:18.

St Ives saying we will not sell new bills to out-of-towners or Jersey

:42:19.:42:22.

saying, we have to stay here ten years before you get to buy a place

:42:23.:42:27.

in Jersey, is that the right cure? No. That is an intervention. They

:42:28.:42:33.

are the same problems facing parts of London were the same problems

:42:34.:42:38.

face St Ives, that school teachers or policemen or restaurant owners

:42:39.:42:43.

cannot afford to stay in parts of London which have come by to forget.

:42:44.:42:48.

The market has distorted the way that we live in large parts of the

:42:49.:42:52.

capital and other cities. This is all over the UK. The Lake District,

:42:53.:42:57.

the Cotswolds, anywhere where there are beautiful second home villages,

:42:58.:43:02.

should they all do this? There are two ways of welcoming foreign

:43:03.:43:06.

investment. Some of it is bringing in money to invest build to rent and

:43:07.:43:13.

another lot is bringing in for second homes which are also use,

:43:14.:43:20.

they are still useful, because they are global and reporters who have

:43:21.:43:24.

their second home to do business. When he says it is too restrictive,

:43:25.:43:29.

too confining for developers or building, what is your sense?

:43:30.:43:34.

Through my experience of activism around London, working with

:43:35.:43:37.

different residents and different estates across London, I have

:43:38.:43:41.

noticed that there are restrictions put on developers and they are still

:43:42.:43:47.

managing to bypass them. They are not building enough affordable

:43:48.:43:50.

housing and they are using loopholes to invest in minute amounts of money

:43:51.:43:56.

into the community. I don't understand how taking away

:43:57.:43:59.

restrictions would make this issue any better. What would you do? Just

:44:00.:44:05.

a discussion with some of the colleagues on before, a lot of

:44:06.:44:09.

younger people, professionals wanting to buy and I was asking one

:44:10.:44:15.

of the colleagues, what kind of size of apartment would you be willing to

:44:16.:44:21.

buy? What was sufficient to get onto the housing ladder and she said she

:44:22.:44:24.

would go for something smaller but she said the restrictions are much

:44:25.:44:32.

more. There are minimum sizes. Is that the answer, something very

:44:33.:44:36.

small but gives you the sense of ownership, is about more important

:44:37.:44:38.

than space or size and renting? We are now in such dire straits that

:44:39.:44:50.

it is not about people wanting to own their own home but just people

:44:51.:44:54.

need somewhere to live and call home. Home does not mean you have to

:44:55.:45:00.

own it, it is a place that gives you security and a sense of belonging

:45:01.:45:06.

and gives you a sense of identity. A lot of people would happily rent as

:45:07.:45:13.

long as there was enough guidelines. I agree and I think rent

:45:14.:45:20.

accommodation should be similar. What we build is as important as how

:45:21.:45:25.

much. We all agree we need to build more. In 1970 we built almost

:45:26.:45:31.

400,000 homes and Bert down to less than 200,000 now which is crazy. But

:45:32.:45:35.

the culture has been to encourage people to increase their wealth,

:45:36.:45:39.

through property ownership. Is that there and should we treat property

:45:40.:45:43.

in the same way you might invest in... It is how we live rather than

:45:44.:45:52.

how we afford our pensions. And this is a chance we have with this. I

:45:53.:45:58.

think there's too much on ownership as a retirement savings vehicle. I

:45:59.:46:03.

think many owners, there is a focus on the idea on people wanting to

:46:04.:46:08.

make money from housing and ideological and that is why we are

:46:09.:46:10.

in this mess because people are making money from the housing

:46:11.:46:16.

crisis. So when I read what the government... Is that unethical?

:46:17.:46:23.

Profit and loss is absolutely necessary as a signal as to whether

:46:24.:46:28.

investment is efficient or inefficient and actually using more

:46:29.:46:33.

resources than it delivers. But London is being wrecked by the way

:46:34.:46:36.

private developers are forced to carry on the burden of those things

:46:37.:46:42.

the state has stepped back from. Love high-rises around Battersea and

:46:43.:46:47.

they're expected to play things that they should not. Add creates an area

:46:48.:46:53.

which in ten years will be one of the slums that we are going to

:46:54.:46:57.

regret. So at this point would you say Blunden should have the same

:46:58.:47:00.

attitude to foreign investment whether it is rich Chinese business

:47:01.:47:04.

people buying stuff in central London, should this city say no. The

:47:05.:47:09.

history of planning shows the unintended consequences follow from

:47:10.:47:16.

attempts to do things in a big way. We need to be careful what we do.

:47:17.:47:21.

Too often we go for the quick solution. With the areas of the UK

:47:22.:47:27.

boy slums have been demolished and rebuilt three times in one lifetime.

:47:28.:47:31.

The political timescale is just too fast to deal with this. I have been

:47:32.:47:37.

homeless myself with my family and to hear about housing being

:47:38.:47:42.

discussed in such market terms does not sit well with me. It is a basic

:47:43.:47:48.

human right. I am in contact with people who do not have places to

:47:49.:47:54.

live, teachers, TfL workers, people who make this city work and make the

:47:55.:47:58.

UK work and they do not have somewhere to live. So to discuss it

:47:59.:48:03.

in terms of market and economy, it just misses the point of the kind of

:48:04.:48:09.

issues we are seeing in the UK at the moment. That is the problem

:48:10.:48:15.

precisely, I'm with you and my headline is housing for everyone and

:48:16.:48:18.

more affordable housing. There are a number of policies which are

:48:19.:48:24.

intuitively sensible which prevent this. We should think outside the

:48:25.:48:33.

box and we need to think about economics. If we are thinking out of

:48:34.:48:41.

the box, what is the thing for housing, the driverless cars, if you

:48:42.:48:46.

like? Understanding what is going to be like in 30 or 40 years' time and

:48:47.:48:52.

building things that actually last rather than be discarded in 20

:48:53.:48:59.

years. And this discussion will be carried on life on Facebook. You can

:49:00.:49:04.

join us as soon as we come off air on the BBC Newsnight Facebook page.

:49:05.:49:06.

We leave you with one final take on housing,

:49:07.:49:09.

this one from 1962 and folk singer Pete Seeger.

:49:10.:49:11.

# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.

:49:12.:49:24.

# There's a green one and a pink one.

:49:25.:49:31.

# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.

:49:32.:49:35.

# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.

:49:36.:49:57.

Good evening to you. It is going to be turning colder over the next few

:49:58.:50:11.

days. Not everywhere,

:50:12.:50:12.