10/02/2017 Newsnight


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


10/02/2017

With Emily Maitlis. Includes an interview with Geert Wilders. Plus the global populist movement, German car-makers and Brexit, and a probe into abuse in Iraq is dropped.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, a Newsnight exclusive with the man who could send

:00:00.:00:00.

Some people say that you are a bit of a fascist.

:00:07.:00:11.

Geert Wilders leads the polls in The Netherlands -

:00:12.:00:24.

Could a win for Wilders embolden populists throughout Europe?

:00:25.:00:30.

We ask our guests if Liberal Democracy is in permanent decline.

:00:31.:00:35.

After five years and over ?30 million, the government calls

:00:36.:00:38.

Not a single prosecution of military personnel was secured,

:00:39.:00:43.

They told us it was all going to be fine...

:00:44.:00:50.

Do you seriously suppose that they are going to be so insane as to

:00:51.:00:53.

allow tariffs to be imposed between Britain and Germany?

:00:54.:00:58.

So are German car manufacturers as relaxed about Brexit as he was?

:00:59.:01:11.

Populist parties are growing in strength across Europe,

:01:12.:01:14.

There's Marine le Pen and the National Front

:01:15.:01:18.

But there's a critical election before that -

:01:19.:01:22.

Geert Wilders, who leads the anti-Muslim Freedom Party

:01:23.:01:26.

He wants to take them out of the EU, and to "de-Islamise the Netherlands"

:01:27.:01:32.

with a ban on immigration from Muslim countries.

:01:33.:01:37.

In 2016 he was convicted of inciting discrimination.

:01:38.:01:39.

The Dutch coalition system means it's unlikely Wilders will be

:01:40.:01:41.

But he could end up leading the largest party which would chill

:01:42.:01:48.

European centrists and boost other populist movements

:01:49.:01:49.

We sent our bear in a duffle coat, John Sweeney, in pursuit.

:01:50.:02:05.

This is the election campaign video of the Far Right

:02:06.:02:08.

Unsurprisingly, they believe in freedom,

:02:09.:02:14.

On Brexit, they say the British did it and the Americans did it too.

:02:15.:02:30.

Here is the party's leader and sole member, Geert Wilders.

:02:31.:02:36.

Borrowed perhaps from Dad's Army, suggests that by the end

:02:37.:02:39.

of the century there will be 4 billion Africans and many will

:02:40.:02:42.

Wilders links refugees, especially Muslim ones,

:02:43.:02:47.

"Go and vote" he concludes, "and make the Netherlands ours again".

:02:48.:03:03.

Wilders is a hard man to track down, but if you go down to the Dutch

:03:04.:03:06.

parliament, you might be in for a big surprise.

:03:07.:03:15.

The great man is going to come down those stairs, through here,

:03:16.:03:23.

into the chamber and that is our one chance to have an natter with him.

:03:24.:03:26.

into the chamber and that is our one chance to have a natter with him.

:03:27.:03:30.

Are you going to do to Holland what Mr Trump is doing to America?

:03:31.:03:36.

I am not Mr Trump, I am my own man, in my own party, in my own country.

:03:37.:03:46.

But indeed, there is what I call a patriotic spring going on.

:03:47.:03:49.

We saw the beginning of it with Brexit, that even though

:03:50.:03:52.

the political elite was making sure the people were afraid to vote

:03:53.:03:55.

in favour of leaving the European Union, the people

:03:56.:03:57.

We saw in the United States that despite all the rhetoric

:03:58.:04:06.

of the elite, Mr Trump won the election.

:04:07.:04:09.

I hope I can repeat the same thing, because once again the people

:04:10.:04:12.

It's not only America first, it's also Holland first, and that's

:04:13.:04:18.

Some people say you are a bit of a fascist though?

:04:19.:04:22.

Some of them, but it is totally untrue.

:04:23.:04:33.

Wilders' hostility to Islam has led to death threats, so he is guarded

:04:34.:04:36.

But his message strikes a chord here.

:04:37.:04:46.

Around one in five Dutch voters are expected to plump

:04:47.:04:52.

for the Freedom Party on March the 15th.

:04:53.:04:54.

In The Hague, I hit the pedals to find out why.

:04:55.:05:04.

The Valentine's Day tat was out, but love was in short supply.

:05:05.:05:09.

Geert Wilders, you going to vote for him?

:05:10.:05:11.

Because I am fed up with all this mumbo jumbo talking

:05:12.:05:21.

They say, look what we have done, what we have done.

:05:22.:05:26.

There's a lot of people who have another mind to get out.

:05:27.:05:29.

When I was young, Holland was the most open and tolerant society.

:05:30.:05:32.

Because we are a small country and there's an explosion

:05:33.:05:39.

of people, too many children, too many people...

:05:40.:05:45.

They have to help them, but it's full, we are fall.

:05:46.:05:48.

They have to help them, but it's full, we are full.

:05:49.:05:51.

He is looking what the people are angry about and is saying

:05:52.:05:56.

Because he is saying things like all people have

:05:57.:05:59.

He is saying something, but he's not going to do it

:06:00.:06:05.

because the only thing he's doing is talking bad about

:06:06.:06:08.

the Muslims and then give them the blame for everything.

:06:09.:06:10.

But most people don't trust other politics,

:06:11.:06:12.

so they want to trust him to see what he's going to do.

:06:13.:06:17.

Wilders must have liked my robust approach, because I get a phone call

:06:18.:06:23.

Geert Wilders, when did you last go for a walk on your own?

:06:24.:06:32.

Well, that's something like 12, 13 years ago.

:06:33.:06:41.

All on my own, drive a car, go and do some shopping,

:06:42.:06:47.

empty my own mailbox at home, being at my own home is more than 12

:06:48.:06:50.

I am on a death list from Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, many of that

:06:51.:06:58.

What's the biggest cause by terror of a loss of Dutch lives

:06:59.:07:05.

Well, we were lucky to not have the kind of attacks

:07:06.:07:16.

for instance Germany, Belgium, France and even

:07:17.:07:18.

the United Kingdom with the London attacks had.

:07:19.:07:20.

They are entirely innocent in a civilian airliner,

:07:21.:07:34.

shot down and the prime suspects is Putin's Russia?

:07:35.:07:36.

I am sure it has to be cleared, I would not bet Russia had

:07:37.:07:46.

nothing to do with that, but still let's wait

:07:47.:07:48.

I could be right, the Russians say it's the Ukrainians.

:07:49.:08:04.

Either way, 193 people died, they're Dutch and it has got nothing

:08:05.:08:07.

So why aren't you concerned about that as well because there

:08:08.:08:12.

are other dangers in the world out there, North Korea,

:08:13.:08:14.

Putin's Russia and there is Islamists extremists,

:08:15.:08:19.

Islamist fascists, so aren't you a bit obsessed with just one

:08:20.:08:22.

element of the spectrum here, which is the Muslim spectrum,

:08:23.:08:25.

while ignoring perhaps, Russian fascists?

:08:26.:08:35.

The more that we import Islam, I'm not talking about all the people,

:08:36.:08:39.

I'm not saying once again that all the people are extremist

:08:40.:08:41.

people, but the ideology and freedom are incompatible.

:08:42.:08:43.

So we are facing an existential problem here.

:08:44.:08:50.

If we allow to open our borders, if we allowe to ignore the problems

:08:51.:08:53.

that we are facing today, let alone later in the century

:08:54.:08:56.

with the demographic situation in Africa,

:08:57.:08:57.

Our values, our identity will not be taken away

:08:58.:09:00.

by the European Union, only but by the Islamistation

:09:01.:09:05.

So Trump has pushed America first, you have the Netherlands first,

:09:06.:09:20.

America first, Germany first, Russia first, don't

:09:21.:09:21.

I think that is a fear some politicians put into our heads,

:09:22.:09:35.

but they forget telling us that we made a kind of other

:09:36.:09:38.

totalitarian organisation dominance, which is called the European Union.

:09:39.:09:42.

You speak your mind in China and in Russia,

:09:43.:09:51.

you may end up dead, not in Brussels...

:09:52.:09:55.

I am not saying it is totalitarian to all the citizens

:09:56.:09:58.

of the European Union, but is totalitarian

:09:59.:10:01.

You believe in the politics of identity, don't you?

:10:02.:10:05.

I suppose the people who believe in liberal democracy,

:10:06.:10:15.

the idea that everybody is equal under the law, it is a different way

:10:16.:10:19.

People are equal, ideologies, values are not equal.

:10:20.:10:23.

What I told you before, the cultural relativist,

:10:24.:10:37.

people who believe all cultures are equal are the proof

:10:38.:10:41.

of the biggest disease Europe faced in the last decade.

:10:42.:10:43.

Cultural relativists who say the Islamic culture

:10:44.:10:45.

is the same as Christianity, and allow them and don't demand from

:10:46.:10:48.

This is the worst thing that has happened to us.

:10:49.:10:55.

Many Dutch find his views not just repellents, but dangerous.

:10:56.:11:02.

So will Geert Wilders take power on March the 15th?

:11:03.:11:04.

Probably not, as the mainstream parties will do their

:11:05.:11:07.

But there's no doubting this man is changing what was once the most

:11:08.:11:12.

liberal country in Europe into something quite different.

:11:13.:11:18.

So is the talk of populist revolution in Europe overblown?

:11:19.:11:21.

Or are we mad to ignore the warning signals?

:11:22.:11:26.

At the moment Geert Wilders is leading the opinion polls

:11:27.:11:28.

in the Netherlands with 19% of the vote, three points ahead

:11:29.:11:31.

And in France, Le Pen is also expected to be ahead in the first

:11:32.:11:36.

round of the Presidential election, on 26%.

:11:37.:11:38.

So do these parties really have a chance of winning power?

:11:39.:11:44.

And critically, what is their presence doing

:11:45.:11:47.

Joining me now, Times Columnist David Aronovitch, Sara Hobolt,

:11:48.:11:56.

professor of European politics at LSE and Yascha Mount,

:11:57.:11:58.

Very nice to have you here. I want to put this in context, we have

:11:59.:12:08.

played around with some of the numbers from the polls, but how

:12:09.:12:14.

close to power do you believe Geert Wilders is right now? It depends on

:12:15.:12:18.

what you mean by power? He is close to being the largest party in the

:12:19.:12:22.

Netherlands, but that does not mean he will win a majority, but it does

:12:23.:12:27.

mean he will be a power to be reckoned with when it comes to

:12:28.:12:31.

coalition formation. He cannot be Prime Minister, as it were, on his

:12:32.:12:36.

own? No party in the Netherlands will win a majority, there will have

:12:37.:12:40.

to be a coalition. It might be he is the first person to be asked form

:12:41.:12:45.

back coalition. The other parties have said we do not want to go into

:12:46.:12:50.

government with you. It doesn't roll out there could be another

:12:51.:12:53.

centre-right minority government where he is the main supporting

:12:54.:12:58.

party. We have seen that before between 2010 and 2012 in the

:12:59.:13:02.

Netherlands where his party was providing the Parliamentary support

:13:03.:13:07.

and gaining concessions like that. David, you said nothing to worry

:13:08.:13:13.

about? My concern is a different one. And that is we have managed to

:13:14.:13:18.

paint what has happened and what is happening in Europe, Britain and to

:13:19.:13:22.

some extent in America as well, as the revolt of the majority. We talk

:13:23.:13:29.

about it as if what you have is akin to a revolutionary situation with

:13:30.:13:38.

the masses coming down the street... Because we call it populism. But

:13:39.:13:42.

when you look at the continuing demographics of the people who are

:13:43.:13:47.

supporting these parties, they tend to be declining demographics. They

:13:48.:13:52.

are older, they tend to have jobs in industries that are declining and so

:13:53.:13:56.

on. That is the first point. That doesn't mean you should not worry

:13:57.:14:00.

about it, but you should worry about it for the reasons I suspect my

:14:01.:14:03.

colleagues will say you should worry about it, and that is the influence

:14:04.:14:14.

they can have on other parties. I cannot rule out the possibility that

:14:15.:14:17.

Marine Le Pen will win, but they are pretty much blocked out at about

:14:18.:14:19.

25%. In some places we get very uptight about that, like in Germany.

:14:20.:14:23.

We are talking about a party that never gets above 12% in the polls.

:14:24.:14:27.

That will give them representation, but it will give them any more

:14:28.:14:31.

representation than the left party had in the last election, and we

:14:32.:14:37.

never even noticed it. They might be influencing of the mainstream

:14:38.:14:40.

parties, but be in themselves are not a threat, do you buy that? We

:14:41.:14:45.

see that reflected in European politics. I worry about them being

:14:46.:14:59.

able to win majorities. Everybody said Brexit would that happen, but

:15:00.:15:02.

it did. Everybody said Donald Trump could not be elected, but he did. In

:15:03.:15:05.

countries like Sweden and Germany, five or ten years ago we had no

:15:06.:15:07.

populist parties strong in the system. Now the third biggest party

:15:08.:15:16.

in the polls. You see they do represent the majority of the

:15:17.:15:21.

population on many questions. For example, most Europeans in every

:15:22.:15:24.

country that was polled a couple of days ago, believed we should have no

:15:25.:15:28.

further immigration from the Muslim majority countries whatsoever. Are

:15:29.:15:36.

we crazy to miss those signals? I understand what he's saying, but

:15:37.:15:40.

there is a danger in saying we got it badly wrong over Brexit, we were

:15:41.:15:44.

bruised over Brexit, bruised over Donald Trump. In order not to get

:15:45.:15:49.

bruised again, we will talk up these other parties. One of the problems I

:15:50.:15:54.

have is, we had a good interview with Geert Wilders. Yesterday the

:15:55.:15:58.

today programme we had an interview with Marine Le Pen. I bet some of

:15:59.:16:03.

the British population cannot name any other politician in France apart

:16:04.:16:08.

from Francois Hollande and especially in Holland. The Prime

:16:09.:16:13.

Minister's party might lead Geert Wilders in the party. This party of

:16:14.:16:17.

Geert Wilders was at this place in the polls in 2013. Do you think the

:16:18.:16:23.

polls do relate to the coverage these politicians are getting?

:16:24.:16:30.

I do not believe that Brexit is protected by Eddie one, this was a

:16:31.:16:36.

close race. Everybody knew that it was close, it is not to say that

:16:37.:16:41.

nobody knew this was in the balance but in terms of getting coverage,

:16:42.:16:47.

what we are seeing after the financial crisis is there has always

:16:48.:16:50.

been populist parties on the right but there has been a step change in

:16:51.:16:55.

just how popular they are and we're not talking about pluralities but no

:16:56.:17:00.

party will win an outright majority and been influential, in terms of

:17:01.:17:03.

setting the agenda and the agenda has shifted in European politics

:17:04.:17:08.

towards anti-immigration and Euro scepticism but also inside. Our

:17:09.:17:15.

liberal democracies in Europe actually in permanent decline? There

:17:16.:17:18.

was a time when that question seemed unthinkable and it not seem long

:17:19.:17:24.

ago. Do you think so? For a long time people believed that once

:17:25.:17:27.

relatively wealthy, you have had changes of government, democracy is

:17:28.:17:34.

safe, the only game in town. I looked at this question. What does

:17:35.:17:38.

it mean for democracy to be the only game in town? It means most citizens

:17:39.:17:44.

give great importance to living in democracy, and they don't foot for

:17:45.:17:47.

people who criticise democracy in a deep way. What that survey shows

:17:48.:17:54.

that that is not true, in Western Europe and North America. The number

:17:55.:17:58.

of people who say, democracy, take it or leave it, has gone up very

:17:59.:18:04.

rapidly... And these are young people. How does that tight end but

:18:05.:18:12.

the idea that people are in decline who vote for these radical parties?

:18:13.:18:18.

And from what to watch? One of the key sets of social attitudes in this

:18:19.:18:22.

country is measurable by, would you mind if your child married somebody

:18:23.:18:27.

of another race? For years and years you would see a majority in this

:18:28.:18:34.

country would say no to that. And a majority now say they are not

:18:35.:18:39.

bothered and it is not because old people change their minds, it is

:18:40.:18:43.

because younger people never lost that attitude. Does this go back to

:18:44.:18:51.

the question asked Wilders, that nationalism has become so much in

:18:52.:18:54.

the body because for years people lived with the idea of a sovereign

:18:55.:18:57.

nation state and we then start talking in these bodies? That,

:18:58.:19:04.

again, is a generational question. In a lot of countries. And by and

:19:05.:19:10.

large again, younger people do tend to see themselves as more

:19:11.:19:15.

interdependent. Hardly surprising. I think that younger people are much

:19:16.:19:20.

more polarised so more young people are very used to multiethnic

:19:21.:19:26.

democracies and interacting with people from different origins but

:19:27.:19:29.

also young people who fervently reject that so if you look at France

:19:30.:19:36.

from Marine Le Pen's party and the support for Deutschland, among young

:19:37.:19:43.

people they are strong and this is a matter of a long-term transition but

:19:44.:19:48.

many European democracies where divided as monocultural countries

:19:49.:19:52.

and they have had become multiethnic because of immigration and so on. A

:19:53.:19:57.

big proportion of the population has made their peace with that and

:19:58.:20:02.

celebrates that but there is also a big proportion of the population

:20:03.:20:06.

that says no, what it means to be Dutch as you are descended from

:20:07.:20:09.

Dutch people and everything else does not quite so the big question

:20:10.:20:13.

the next 30 years is whether we can get people to broaden their sense of

:20:14.:20:17.

identity and there is no historical precedent that this can be done.

:20:18.:20:22.

Does it feel like this is still a protest voice or is there something

:20:23.:20:25.

able to transform the landscape of Europe? It is clear that the party

:20:26.:20:31.

system in Europe is under some kind of transformation and that has been

:20:32.:20:35.

going on for some time because we have seen this loosening of ties

:20:36.:20:38.

between established left-wing parties and right-wing parties that

:20:39.:20:43.

had support and we have a much more volatile electoral landscape where

:20:44.:20:46.

people pick and choose and it is also there for about parties like

:20:47.:20:52.

those of Wilders can shape the discourse and narrative and appeal

:20:53.:20:55.

to a broader range of people because they do not have his close ties any

:20:56.:20:58.

more to the Labour movement or a Christian Democratic movement. Thank

:20:59.:21:00.

you all for coming in. "If Britain leaves

:21:01.:21:03.

the European Union then will make Angela Merkel give us

:21:04.:21:07.

a good deal". That claim was made time

:21:08.:21:10.

and time again during last The Leave campaign was very

:21:11.:21:12.

confident that Europe's most powerful political leader

:21:13.:21:15.

would listen to her most important So are the likes of BMW and Porsche

:21:16.:21:18.

pushing the German Chancellor Naga Munchetty has been

:21:19.:21:21.

to Leipzig to find out. The Germans wouldn't want to put up

:21:22.:21:29.

trade barriers because that would mean that German car workers

:21:30.:21:32.

would be out of a job. Do you seriously suppose

:21:33.:21:35.

that they are going to be so insane as to allow tariffs to be imposed

:21:36.:21:38.

between Britain and Germany? Germany needs us, we

:21:39.:21:50.

are their biggest market. But now, here in Germany,

:21:51.:21:52.

the feeling is very different. The automotive sector is concerned

:21:53.:21:55.

about Theresa May's approach in Brexit negotiations

:21:56.:21:57.

and their financial impact. Priority number one is keep

:21:58.:22:02.

the internal market Most of the cars we export,

:22:03.:22:04.

we export to the European Union, the 27 countries, to Italy

:22:05.:22:13.

and France, to many parts And the second priority

:22:14.:22:16.

is our exports to Britain. A hard Brexit but definitely not be

:22:17.:22:24.

a good solution for both sides. Why is this relationship

:22:25.:22:28.

so important? The German auto industry has

:22:29.:22:30.

a lot invested in the UK. It runs 100 production sites,

:22:31.:22:35.

employing around 9000 people. More than half of all

:22:36.:22:40.

new cars we sell are built We bought 30 billion euros' worth

:22:41.:22:43.

of their vehicles last year. That is nearly a fifth

:22:44.:22:56.

of Germany's automobile exports. There are concerns that the length

:22:57.:23:04.

of time Theresa May needs to negotiate us out of the EU has

:23:05.:23:08.

been underestimated Two years for the complex

:23:09.:23:10.

negotiations of more than 100 parts You could do it in two years

:23:11.:23:18.

if you take, for example, Stay in the internal market,

:23:19.:23:25.

stay in the Customs Union, Which the Prime Minister

:23:26.:23:30.

has rejected. Therefore, as long as these existing

:23:31.:23:38.

models are rejected, And when it comes to what is most

:23:39.:23:40.

in Germany's interests, this long-time ally of Angela Merkel

:23:41.:23:54.

sings from the same hymn sheet Everyone who has a production site

:23:55.:23:56.

at the very moment in Britain is concerned about the developments

:23:57.:24:04.

which say that you If the doors to Europe would be

:24:05.:24:09.

in one or another way partly closed, then production

:24:10.:24:13.

in Britain would suffer. But while this remains

:24:14.:24:24.

Theresa May's stance, uncertainty is still

:24:25.:24:26.

the buzzword among business. Something the auto industry

:24:27.:24:30.

is getting used to. All of Porsche's car plants,

:24:31.:24:37.

like this one in Leipzig, However, the UK is its biggest

:24:38.:24:39.

export market in Europe. So companies like this cannot afford

:24:40.:24:44.

to ignore Brexit and are mindful Because time creates uncertainty

:24:45.:24:54.

and uncertainty can affect business. If time is too long until

:24:55.:25:09.

the negotiations are completed, It is something that many industry

:25:10.:25:12.

bosses are preoccupied with. It will be a little bit more

:25:13.:25:23.

difficult seeing exactly what changes will affect the market,

:25:24.:25:26.

what changes will affect the exchange of persons,

:25:27.:25:29.

the exchange of goods. But the relationship itself

:25:30.:25:33.

will be as good as before. However, we have been told

:25:34.:25:40.

that the bond can be broken. There are alternative manufacturing

:25:41.:25:44.

hubs vying for a service Eastern Europe is proving

:25:45.:25:47.

competitive, in places like Hungary, It is not given that

:25:48.:25:51.

any of our countries, Germany not, Britain not,

:25:52.:25:59.

will produce in five or ten years as many cars

:26:00.:26:01.

at home as it does today. And the political precondition,

:26:02.:26:06.

the trade precondition, is so important and one should

:26:07.:26:13.

always reflect that if one What consequence does my

:26:14.:26:16.

decision have on production Theresa May says the UK

:26:17.:26:19.

economy is a priority. But a UK outside the EU single

:26:20.:26:29.

market and Customs Union could, it seems, face the very real

:26:30.:26:33.

prospect of moving down the pecking order when it comes to Germany's

:26:34.:26:37.

favoured trading partners. Six years ago the Ministry

:26:38.:26:44.

of Defence set up the Iraq Historic Allegations Team to investigate

:26:45.:26:47.

allegations of human rights abuse It had a staff of 145 and looked

:26:48.:26:50.

at well over 3,000 cases. A week ago the lawyer

:26:51.:26:58.

who represented many of the claimants, Phil

:26:59.:27:00.

Shiner, was struck off for misconduct and today

:27:01.:27:03.

the Defence Select Committee published a damning report saying

:27:04.:27:06.

the inquiry had become "a seemingly unstoppable self-perpetuating

:27:07.:27:09.

machine, deaf to the concerns of the armed forces,

:27:10.:27:12.

blind to their needs and profligate Within a couple of hours the MoD

:27:13.:27:14.

confirmed they were all Colonel Bob Stewart

:27:15.:27:20.

is a Conservative MP and member Thank you for joining us. You ever

:27:21.:27:34.

in favour of this investigation? Back from the start, we heard people

:27:35.:27:40.

like myself, the heard serious complaints about the way they were

:27:41.:27:46.

being harassed by the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. They sent lawyers

:27:47.:27:49.

on the ground, they were hassled at home and MPs like myself and now

:27:50.:27:56.

Johnny Mercer, who did a superb job on the subcommittee, has taken this

:27:57.:28:02.

up and we have a result. Has this ever been attempted? I think the MoD

:28:03.:28:07.

made a mistake in the way it was set up. And the Ministry of Defence have

:28:08.:28:12.

put this right, except, can I say, for those poor devils who harassed

:28:13.:28:17.

for many years and months. How can we compensate for the anguish they

:28:18.:28:22.

went through? What should happen? A huge apology to them. And possibly

:28:23.:28:26.

we should consider some form of compensation. The trouble with this

:28:27.:28:34.

is there will be many who say that if there are allegations, these

:28:35.:28:38.

questions, they must be investigated independently? Absolutely. Whenever

:28:39.:28:47.

we get involved in a firefight with normal fatalities, either in

:28:48.:28:51.

Northern Ireland or Iraq or Afghanistan, there is an

:28:52.:28:54.

investigation and if there is something wrong, if there was

:28:55.:28:57.

investigating, normally military, if they feel there is something wrong,

:28:58.:29:02.

they are no friends to soldiers who they think have done wrong. Don't

:29:03.:29:08.

you find that Lord? The military is still investigating itself? The

:29:09.:29:12.

police have an independent body to investigate allegations. Why is

:29:13.:29:15.

everything in-house with the military? These people are separated

:29:16.:29:21.

and there is something else... The people who investigate understand

:29:22.:29:26.

the circumstances better than civilian policemen, perhaps. His

:29:27.:29:30.

military investigators and I repeat, if there is something wrong, they

:29:31.:29:35.

will reveal it. When you have these cases and we know there is a law

:29:36.:29:39.

firm who still have 80 Afghan citizens who allege abuse and

:29:40.:29:43.

illegal detainment, what should happen? The Ihat has been closed

:29:44.:29:49.

down and investigations have been given to the Royal Navy military

:29:50.:29:55.

personnel to police and check the site. I am not saying that all

:29:56.:29:59.

soldiers are innocent and we must investigate, I am saying there has

:30:00.:30:03.

been a lot of harassment of innocent soldiers and that has got to stop.

:30:04.:30:08.

It has been hugely stuck by the fact that Mr Shiner's company has been

:30:09.:30:12.

closed. In Northern Ireland with something similar going on. They

:30:13.:30:20.

have become mixed, judicial as well. Are they right to carry on? This is

:30:21.:30:25.

clearly what dates to happen in Northern Ireland. What is happening

:30:26.:30:30.

in Northern Ireland is 10% of the fatality killings involved the

:30:31.:30:35.

security services. 90% of the investigation is put onto those 10%

:30:36.:30:42.

and 90% of the killings involved terrorists and only 10% of the

:30:43.:30:45.

effort is being put into the investigation. That is wrong.

:30:46.:30:51.

Absolutely wrong. A lot of MPs, including myself, are up in arms. It

:30:52.:30:55.

will not follow the Way of this one? I hope so because at the moment, the

:30:56.:31:02.

armed Forces are pretty annoyed, it has to follow. If necessary, we will

:31:03.:31:07.

have to bring politics into this. We have brought politics into Northern

:31:08.:31:11.

Ireland before and politics, by that, we have allowed on the run

:31:12.:31:14.

terrorists to have a passport out of their crimes. And I think, please do

:31:15.:31:21.

not believe that the Armed Forces need some sort of Amnesty, they have

:31:22.:31:24.

done nothing wrong. They want to make sure that people who have been

:31:25.:31:30.

involved in fatalities shootings in Northern Ireland, and I have had

:31:31.:31:34.

some of my men in that situation, those people who have had an

:31:35.:31:37.

investigation sometimes they have gone into court and it happened with

:31:38.:31:44.

two of my men in 78, they have proven they are innocent. Don't

:31:45.:31:45.

bring this back again. Thank you. Before we go, in these extraordinary

:31:46.:31:49.

times it somehow seems appropriate and portentous that last night more

:31:50.:31:52.

than 400 pilot whales washed up on a New Zealand beach

:31:53.:31:55.

called Farewell Spit. It's the largest mass beaching

:31:56.:32:01.

in New Zealand for over 30 years. Many of the whales died but hundreds

:32:02.:32:04.

of volunteers are there attempting Some of them have now successfully

:32:05.:32:07.

been returned to the water. Just off to bed wondering what is in

:32:08.:33:06.

store for the weekend? You could be waking up this seems like this

:33:07.:33:10.

potentially in the morning if you live to the east of

:33:11.:33:11.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis, including an interview with Geert Wilders.

Plus the global populist movement, German car-makers and Brexit, and a probe into abuse in Iraq is dropped.