01/11/2016 Scotland 2016

In the rare event of a miscarriage of justice, are exonerees

Hello and welcome to Scotland 2016.

Lawyers, academics and campaigners have met in Glasgow to discuss

the plight of those jailed for crimes they didn't commit.

Iraqi forces trying to drive IS out of Mosul have reached the outskirts

And the row with Fifa, who say footballers can't wear poppy

armbands when Scotland and England play on Armistice Day.

We know from the Shawshank Redemption everyone in prison says

they are innocent. But some of them really are. A conference has been

hearing from some high-profile victims of the criminal justice

system. People who serve years and sometimes decades behind bars for

crimes they had not committed. Huw Williams reports.

On November 1974 -- November 24, 1974 182 people were injured when

these bombs went off. Paddy Hill was among those arrested. If they have

said from the beginning, we know you didn't do the bombings. We've got

you and that's good enough for us. Then he pointed at the ceiling and

said, we didn't pick you but you have been selected by people at the

highest level of government and they have given us our orders. He said

the police used brutality and torture on them. The next thing, the

guy with a shot gun would be in, screaming all sorts of abuse at you

about your wife, your kids etc etc. They would say, sit in that corner,

I don't want to see your face, you Irish bastard, and all of this. Then

they would go to the next one and the next one, the five us, and it

would be deadly silent for the next minute or so. Then the one with a

handgun would come round. Robert Brown served 25 years for the murder

of Annie Walsh which he denied until his conviction was overturned in

2002. There was no evidence to connect me to the crimes are wider

bit possessed in arrestingly? Since the release of the Guildford four in

1991 there have been 6000 cases released from the Court of Appeal,

from traffic to murder offences, so there are obviously anomalies in the

system, and it is a system that is badly flawed. He says the criminal

justice system closes ranks if mistakes come to light. It is not

about the truth. Truth and justice are not synonymous in a court of

law. It is about winning and the prosecution will do anything to win

and if that means heading evidence that could clear a defendant they

have no qualms about doing so, Huw. This was discussed today at a

conference in the University of Strathclyde, home to a group that

investigate potential miscarriages of justice under half of people who

have exhausted all normal appeals. As students we can do work that a

criminal solicitor would not... Would not be eligible for legal aid

for. We can go out to look for fresh information. We collaborate with

different departments inside the university. The forensics department

and the investigative journalism department. These are things they

would not be able to get for free and we have been in the past.

Organisation works... We do not have the finance to be able to hire in a

lawyer and fight the case is ourselves which is what we want to

do as an organisation. You have to get a pat on the back to Strathclyde

University and others that offer to -- these projects, offering that in

their universities, bringing their learning to real-life situations.

Jubilant scenes when the Birmingham six's convictions were overturned,

but like every victim of a miscarriage of justice, the effects

continue. I still look at everything out here in terms of jail. I cannot

get out of the habit. The only good thing they did for us is they took

us out of the prison, but they did not take the prison out of us.

Paddy Hill ending that report by Huw Williams.

Joining us now to discuss this more is Dr Rhonda Wheate

She is director of the clinical Law programme there. Thank you for

coming in. How common are miscarriages of justice and how do

they happen? It is very difficult to see how common they are because

obviously we do not hear about all of them and do not find out they

have happened. There are incentives in the criminal justice system that

mean for example if you want to be eligible for parole you need to

admit you were guilty. And so you will have instances of people who,

having spent a long durations in prison, will plead guilty, or will

admit their guilt at that stage, simply to be released. So there are

examples of miscarriages of justice that we cannot tell they are

officially but we know, particularly through organisations like this,

that this is happening. It is very difficult to quantify but we do know

that it happens. Is often the case, as we heard in the film, that

universities and students, more students, often end up being the

ones doing a lot of the groundwork to try to bring these cases to the

forefront? -- law students. Yes, there is a tradition in legal

schools, the good ones, trying to Google Street -- trying to

infiltrate in students that mentality so there is a long history

of innocence Project in universities for that reason. Certainly others do

work, in organisations such as MOJO, the miscarriages Of Justice

Organisation, trying to raise awareness about the problem which is

what the conference tonight was trying to do. Obviously we have a

criminal justice system that works extremely well the vast majority of

the time and it is a human process, Abbey -- about judgment as well, so

it is hard to see how something could be absolutely perfect? Yes, a

human process and there will be human responses to various steps

along the way but that is not to see it could not be better. For

instance, in the forensics side of what happens in a criminal trial

which is what I have looked at and how juries understand forensics

science, for example, the forensic scientists are humans and will have

natural biases and inclinations and things that are not necessarily

strictly scientific and the information they give in court is

interpreted by tutors who are not scientific experts, bringing all

their humanity into how they make decisions -- interpreted by jurors.

So there are many places in the criminal justice system where things

can go badly wrong. We have changed our attitude a lot towards legality

I think due to TV programmes and even films and even talking about

Making A Murderer, the net Skelfers Netflix series. Does it surprise you

they can attract huge audiences of people who are intrigued by the

stories? -- the Netflix series. It doesn't surprise me because many of

us have a feeling that if I have done nothing wrong and I have

nothing to fear, if I am innocent all come out in the wash. Is it

helpful? Yes, I do think it is helpful, these sorts of programmes,

particularly Making A Murderer in raising awareness that being

innocent is not necessarily enough. It is a big system and you can get

lost along the way and end up convicted. Of course it often does

not end at exoneration. You looked at the idea today of support. What

happens to people who are exonerated? Is easy to go on and

live a normal life? No. There are older obvious difficulties with not

having any work experience, having lost years of relationships with

your family, particularly children. We found that many of the exonerees

spoke to very poignantly about having lost all contact with their

children and not being able to come to grips with that when they leave

prison. So it is more than having a box ticked to say, books, you were

wrongly convicted, no carry on with your life -- to say, oops. No smoke

without fire, having to put up with that kid of attitude. Do these

people get further support? Organisations such as MOJO either

specifically to provide resources and support but they are under

difficult circumstances themselves in terms of resources that it is not

really ever enough. They do their best to cope with the volume of

cases coming through but they are inundated with letters from

prisoners and people seeking their help from both sides of the divide.

Those who are still convicted and those who have been exonerated.

Thank you so much for coming in, Doctor Rhonda Wheate.

16 days after beginning their assault, Iraqi forces have

for the first time entered the outskirts of Mosul

since Islamic State militants captured it more than two years ago.

Militant fighters have put up stiff resistance but the battle for Mosul

The fight against IS brings together disparate, competing forces

And there are growing concerns for one million people thought to be

Earlier I spoke to Haissam Minkara, deputy country director

He describes what life is like for civilians

Mosul city has been under the Isis occupation, or under the control of

Isis, for the pasts years. Reports of the year from people - we don't

have first hand information. But reportedly people fleeing Mosul are

speaking about... -- reports that we hear from people. They are speaking

problems with medicine and supplies. You imagine the infrastructure has

also been badly damaged? Do you not people can access health care and

education? The fighting reported yesterday is raising our concerns

about serious damage to the infrastructure and about potential

casualties among civilians. They are calling all of the combating parties

to make sure they do not use heavy ammunition or that they do not

bombard the heavily populated and built-up areas to make sure that

minimal damage is happening to the infrastructure that is meant to

serve the civilians there. And do you expect that things like bombs

will have been left behind? Should IS fighters flee? Like any other

combat field, there are serious fears of unexploded mines and bombs

that have been left behind and that is a serious risk, that civilians

could be exposed to. We call on all of the combating parties, on the

coalition and on the Iraqi forces, to communicate clearly to civilians

in Mosul and in areas that are taken over about the risk they might be

exposed to, and not to call civilians to go back unless the

areas are cleared from these unexploded materials and IUDs. How

have you been helping people leaving Mosul? How strong is their desire to

return? Oxfam and other humanitarian agencies have been increasing their

preparedness to respond to the people in need around Mosul. People

have been responding for the past few weeks. In the Mosul corridor,

supporting the people who fled the areas around Mosul city. We have

been providing clean water, we have been providing NFIs, non-food items,

bedding, blankets, kitchen supplies, for people who fled. We are now

focusing on the areas where the majority of internally displaced

people have settled. We are expecting more people to come. The

scale of the crisis is huge. Their expectations, we are talking about

more than 200,000 people who might be fleeing Mosul in the next few

weeks. If these expectations have been realised, the scale of the

response at the moment is not up to that level. Oxfam and all of the

other agencies are in need of funding to be able to respond to the

scale of the need. Haissam Minkara, thank you so much for joining us.

Well, joining me now from London is David Loyn.

After a 37-year career as a BBC foreign correspondent,

he's now a senior visiting research fellow at King's College London's

A very good evening to you. Why are IS putting up such a strong

resistance in Mosul as opposed to other places? This is where their

caliphate began. This is where they came up two years ago launching this

way of fighting Jihad on behalf of world is lamb, they said. It was a

huge call to people not just in Iraq and Syria but to outside. It is the

place where they launched their moves into neighbouring Syria and

taking vast quantities of the countryside around. Even though

they've lost other places, they will fight for muscle. So to take it back

would be a huge gain for the Iraqi forces. Will this be supported by

air strikes or will it be a ground operation? We can expect that

thereafter special forces on the ground and aerial spotters working

alongside Iraqi special forces which we understand are now outside the

city itself. They will be calling in occasional ground strikes. We saw in

northern Syria, it took three months for Kabani to fall. Don't expect

Mosul to fall quickly. A couple of years ago IS slaughtered thousands

of Iraqi soldiers as they crumbled but they are now much better trained

and resourced and have UK and US special forces support on the ground

and drone and air strikes as well when they need to call them in from

the US side. Those Iraqi forces are supported by Kurdish fighters, the

Peshmerga, SUNY nationals, how natural a coalition is this and how

long might it last afterwards? Mosul will fall but it might take two or

three months and there will be significant damage to the

infrastructure of the town with civilian casualties, hundreds of

thousands of people fleeing their homes if they can get away. IS will

try and hold hostages as they try to control and fight for every inch of

the ground with suicide bombers remaining behind. There is then the

big strategic question as to what happens next. There is no natural

alliance between the Kurds from the north and the Iraqi forces coming

from the south. In the past, they have been opposed to each other. For

the Kurds, this is a move towards stabilising their position in the

north. Kurdish northern Iraq is the most stable part of the country.

Effectively ceding from the rest of the country in 2013. There has to

not been as much violence in that part of the country and they will be

looking to stabilise control in Mosul even though it is beyond their

frontier of northern Iraqi Kurdistan. They will be trying to do

what they had done incur cook before. -- Kirkuk. Even once the IS

forces are pushed out, which they will be no doubt in the next few

months, there is a real concerned as to whether it can be stable in the

future. Thank you. Fifa has turned down

a request from the English and Scottish Football Associations

to allow their players to wear a poppy on their shirt or

on an armband during their World Cup qualifier match on

Armistice Day next week. The world governing body's rules

forbid what it calls "political, religious or commercial

messages" on team strips. But many believe none of those

descriptions apply to the poppy. The SNP's Stewart McDonald,

whose Glasgow constituency is home to Hampden Stadium,

has written to the Scottish FA urging them to call on Fifa

to overturn the ban. Very good evening to you. Why, in

your view our Poppy is not political? They just aren't. Many

people have tried to use it for political gains but most people up

for that. The Poppy itself is a symbol of remembrance. It is a time

of year where we remember, in many cases, people from our own family

who have been touched by the two world wars. Certainly, that is why I

choose to wear the Poppy. It is nothing to do with politics. Where

people have tried to do it for political purposes, most decent

people have thrown them a rubber ear on that. It is about charity to

support veterans who have served our country in the Armed Forces. A great

many people share that view but some historians argued it was political

from the outset. The well-known veteran Harry Leslie Smith hasn't

won a Poppy since 2013. He believes that the spirit of his generation

has been hijacked by politics. They are contentious to a degree, do you

accept that? Of course they are to a degree but the key choice is --

point is choice. People should be free to make the choice of where --

whether they wear a coloured Poppy all whether they wear a Poppy at

all. Many people have various different reasons for choosing

whether or not to wear one. Harry Leslie Smith is to be respected for

his point of view. Fifa have no business in trying to stop this

happening. If a player wants to wear one, he should be able to do so and

if not, they should be free to do so without being hounded as a result of

that. The key here is choice. Most reasonable people would back up the

idea that it should be down to individuals, or clubs themselves, as

happens in Scotland already, if they want to ever Poppy, they should be

allowed to do so. If not, they should equally be allowed to do so

and respected. Both sides are hopeful that a pragmatic solution

can be made and meetings are taking place this week to discuss. Are you

happy that there will be a way of finding an agreement? This will

happen on Armistice Day and England against Scotland was the first

codified international game of football. It happened in Scotland.

We all know about the German and British soldiers putting down their

weapons to play football on the field. The guys playing football

next week will be of similar age to those soldiers. If they choose to

wear the Poppy, they should be allowed to do so. What a beautiful

way for the beautiful game of football to remember them. Thank you

for joining us. Thank you. Here with me now to discuss

some of today's stories are the Herald's Scottish political

editor Tom Gordon, and Ann Landels, who's director of the homeless

charity Crisis Skylight Edinburgh. Good evening to you both. Let's

start off by talking about poppies. They are contentious. Do you think

Fifa have a point to make? They are not universally popular but they are

overwhelmingly respected in the UK where the game is going to be

played. Some people find them militaristic but it is a small

minority of people. Images and symbols which are inflammatory are

different from what the copy will be on Armistice Day. If you had both

sides are wearing it in unity, both sets of fans, it's not as though it

is one set of fans projecting an image to antagonise the other side.

It is something that brings everyone together. I think Fifa have got it

badly wrong. Do you agree that it is different from Palestinian flags

being displayed at a football game recently? I would agree with what

has been said already. People should have the right to choose whether or

not they wear it. It's so symbolic. You have to remember that there are

things like the McRae 's battalion, the Hart players that went to the

First World War. Football has that link with sacrifice and if people

want to wear it, the fact that it is too British teams and the Poppy is a

British symbol, I think it should be allowed. Do you think Fifa in terms

of PR at the moment are being viewed differently and trying to get away

from some of the negativity surrounding them that this is

something they might end up seeing sense on? They do need to get away

from negativity. With all of their problems about corruption, to pick a

fight about this is a completely misplaced sense of priority. They

should just let it roll. 20,000 people in Scotland will be affected

by the upcoming benefits cap, according to the chartered Institute

of Housing. Where'd you think public opinion stands on this? These

benefit changes affect more and more people and you will see public

opinion engaged and possibly an arranged by this. When the benefit

cap came in at ?26,000 it affected perhaps 900 families in Scotland. It

could be 7-11,000 now by some estimates. It is becoming much more

widespread. Big families in London, it was before, now you are talking

about average families that will be short of rent. It is going to affect

a lot of people. People will be affected themselves or know of

people and word will get out that it is a bad thing. This is something

that you will know a lot about. The benefits included are things like

child benefit which a huge number of people get as of right and don't

have it counted against their income in this way. It would be good if the

Scottish Government could look at ways of mitigating that, either by,

in the same way as discretionary housing payments with the bedroom

tax, or looking at ways of supporting people into work because

that will take people out of this. The work programme is going to be

devolved to the Scottish Government so it would be possible to look at

ways of maybe bridging the cost and actually having measures that would

help people into work. At the end of the day, most people want to work

and support their families and if we can support them to do that it is a

good thing. This is a thing that the Scottish Government have expressed a

will to do. They have already mitigated in respect of the bedroom

tax. What could they do? There is a new study out tomorrow from

Sheffield Hallam University and it is not that straightforward. We will

get more benefit powers transferred to Holyrood in the next few years

but often the amount of money transferred is hacked back as we

speak and so it will be quite a small pot that is inherited. It is

then down to the Scottish Government to make up the money and cash is

tight already. It is not an easy choice to make. Looking ahead to

tomorrow. The offensive behaviour in football act. MSP 's want to

challenge government laws regarding sectarian behaviour at football. You

think this is something that was always going to reach this point

given the amount of opposition. It was a rare instance of where all the

parties agreed. It is not often you see the Green Party and the Tories

aligned on anything. Here they were. They are going to move towards

repeal of this. Tomorrow is a largely symbolic boat but it will

put the wind up the government -- vote. It shows that the parties can

bring concerted pressure to bear on the government at times. It is a

difficult law to enforce. Unenforceable laws are often seen as

bad laws. We need to look at the football clubs doing more about

their fans. We've had examples of successful campaigns, for example

against racism and they show a way of working. If the law is not

enforceable, it becomes nonsense at the end of the day. Do you think at

the outset it was right that politicians should try to take the

lead on this? There was a sense at the time that there had been a whole

spate of aggressive incidents in 2011 and a feeling that something

had to be done. Always a dangerous atmosphere that politicians have to

take action in. I think they should have placed themselves and taking it

more slowly because it seems to have come with problems. The time is

right for reform, not necessarily repeal, because there are useful

elements, especially on the threatening communication side of

it. But something has to change. Do you think 230 convictions is enough

to justify that it has done something? It has done something but

it is not really addressing the root of the problem that is what we need

to look at. It is creating a different kind of culture so it

becomes an acceptable. Not something that you to see. An interesting

debate tomorrow? It will be an interesting precedent to set up

Parliament. It won't open the floodgates because there are not

many areas of overlap between the parties but it will be one to watch.

Thanks for coming. Shelly will be here tomorrow

night at the usual time. So do please join her then

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