30/03/2014 Sunday Politics East


30/03/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:40.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

:00:41.:00:44.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

:00:45.:00:48.

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

:00:49.:00:51.

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

:00:52.:00:56.

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

:00:57.:00:59.

They could be Here in the east, claims th`t

:01:00.:01:10.

elderly people are losing ott when it

:01:11.:01:11.

In London, changes to the authority which runs the capital's Fire

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Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his

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critics. And with me, as always, the most

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useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually

:01:27.:01:30.

obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our

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chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a

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plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be

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tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the

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Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be

:01:52.:01:54.

no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent

:01:55.:01:59.

Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't

:02:00.:02:02.

necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were

:02:03.:02:07.

delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.

:02:08.:02:10.

The faux pas has come at a time when campaign rushed to limit the damage.

:02:11.:02:14.

the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were

:02:15.:02:19.

going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that

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campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in

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Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.

:02:25.:02:35.

Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no

:02:36.:02:41.

campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have

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got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have

:02:50.:02:54.

got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we

:02:55.:02:59.

are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the

:03:00.:03:04.

possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think

:03:05.:03:08.

that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it

:03:09.:03:11.

against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a

:03:12.:03:15.

detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England

:03:16.:03:19.

Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would

:03:20.:03:23.

not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the

:03:24.:03:27.

permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is

:03:28.:03:31.

such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with

:03:32.:03:35.

it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the

:03:36.:03:41.

force of argument is very much against those of us who want to

:03:42.:03:45.

remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the

:03:46.:03:49.

day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a

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deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is

:03:54.:03:55.

nowhere else in the nuclear deterrent is, there is

:03:56.:04:01.

is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the

:04:02.:04:05.

nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a

:04:06.:04:08.

monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible

:04:09.:04:13.

isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is

:04:14.:04:18.

more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear

:04:19.:04:22.

advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic

:04:23.:04:26.

best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any

:04:27.:04:30.

more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put

:04:31.:04:38.

the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes

:04:39.:04:47.

I do not believe that will be a I do not believe that will be a

:04:48.:04:53.

Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish

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Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not

:04:58.:05:01.

sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from

:05:02.:05:05.

Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have

:05:06.:05:10.

not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the

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questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too

:05:15.:05:26.

negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found

:05:27.:05:28.

you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,

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isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the

:05:33.:05:36.

people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes

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there were a couple of polls part of the United Kingdom. Yes

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week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of

:05:46.:05:50.

all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting

:05:51.:05:56.

intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of

:05:57.:05:59.

people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed

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to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to

:06:05.:06:10.

remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a

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yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew

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towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if

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your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking

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into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not

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impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely

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the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole

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argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy

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lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen It

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can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least

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because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the

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amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will

:07:09.:07:09.

be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social

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media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we

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have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as

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theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave

:07:26.:07:30.

you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think

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they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the

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agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if

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there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold

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of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,

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when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there

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was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is

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still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after

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the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next

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year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,

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when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked

:08:19.:08:21.

about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to

:08:22.:08:25.

get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be

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on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think

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that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his

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word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with

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giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or

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having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they

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have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there

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is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his

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story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence of

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course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in

:09:06.:09:10.

London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with

:09:11.:09:11.

Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop

:09:12.:09:20.

another country using its. That is different. All London can really do

:09:21.:09:27.

is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The

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interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.

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Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out

:09:36.:09:40.

of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's

:09:41.:09:45.

financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of

:09:46.:09:49.

injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial

:09:50.:09:52.

crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it

:09:53.:09:57.

not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the

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Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign

:10:00.:10:04.

which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the

:10:05.:10:07.

resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists

:10:08.:10:11.

having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in

:10:12.:10:17.

the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that

:10:18.:10:20.

he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a

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bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The

:10:27.:10:31.

polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going

:10:32.:10:39.

their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the

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gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The

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plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better

:10:51.:10:54.

Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they

:10:55.:10:57.

get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London

:10:58.:11:01.

Police say, give us a couple of million.

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Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when

:11:05.:11:07.

North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey

:11:08.:11:15.

has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have

:11:16.:11:23.

been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95 of

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the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit

:11:30.:11:33.

coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation

:11:34.:11:38.

by the competition and markets authorities which will look at

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whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave

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investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not

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spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home

:11:51.:11:54.

might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the

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generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's

:12:00.:12:04.

night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016

:12:05.:12:09.

according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to

:12:10.:12:14.

2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of

:12:15.:12:20.

candles. Now where is that light switch?

:12:21.:12:23.

Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light

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switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating

:12:32.:12:36.

capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We

:12:37.:12:43.

will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy

:12:44.:12:47.

investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal

:12:48.:12:52.

with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up

:12:53.:12:58.

massively. Investment has been billion a year. Last year was a

:12:59.:13:03.

record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing

:13:04.:13:09.

it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment

:13:10.:13:12.

massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights

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on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing

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anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we

:13:20.:13:25.

have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We

:13:26.:13:31.

have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will

:13:32.:13:34.

come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that

:13:35.:13:38.

we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have

:13:39.:13:47.

one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having

:13:48.:13:53.

major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The

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figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.

:13:59.:14:02.

Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from

:14:03.:14:06.

interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are

:14:07.:14:11.

able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a

:14:12.:14:18.

mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on

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that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to

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under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our

:14:31.:14:36.

plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it

:14:37.:14:41.

would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply

:14:42.:14:47.

who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our

:14:48.:14:54.

plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to

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come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of

:14:59.:15:01.

power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.

:15:02.:15:04.

There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we

:15:05.:15:09.

are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.

:15:10.:15:13.

We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction

:15:14.:15:16.

for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned

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lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries

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so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I

:15:36.:15:38.

am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000

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megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost

:15:49.:15:54.

22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power

:15:55.:15:59.

supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those

:16:00.:16:02.

figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power

:16:03.:16:05.

plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,

:16:06.:16:10.

nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment but

:16:11.:16:14.

we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to

:16:15.:16:20.

date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare

:16:21.:16:24.

capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour

:16:25.:16:28.

Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing

:16:29.:16:32.

significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also

:16:33.:16:36.

remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at

:16:37.:16:40.

15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average

:16:41.:16:47.

margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since

:16:48.:16:52.

privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high

:16:53.:16:56.

margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have

:16:57.:17:02.

historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so

:17:03.:17:05.

historically low margins. People sure the lights stay on, we have a

:17:06.:17:09.

short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a

:17:10.:17:13.

long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between

:17:14.:17:14.

nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between

:17:15.:17:38.

on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has

:17:39.:17:46.

increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the

:17:47.:17:54.

report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been

:17:55.:17:58.

working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we

:17:59.:18:03.

have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on

:18:04.:18:07.

if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but

:18:08.:18:13.

demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to

:18:14.:18:17.

off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,

:18:18.:18:21.

and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the

:18:22.:18:25.

Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks

:18:26.:18:29.

for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around

:18:30.:18:32.

for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to

:18:33.:18:38.

expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into

:18:39.:18:41.

haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,

:18:42.:18:49.

dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at

:18:50.:18:54.

the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range

:18:55.:19:04.

of power companies who are building a new power station and want to

:19:05.:19:08.

build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100

:19:09.:19:12.

billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore

:19:13.:19:16.

capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the

:19:17.:19:20.

Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to

:19:21.:19:25.

expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We

:19:26.:19:30.

have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is

:19:31.:19:35.

happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say

:19:36.:19:40.

it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we

:19:41.:19:44.

have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at

:19:45.:19:49.

independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to

:19:50.:19:53.

invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore

:19:54.:19:56.

wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only

:19:57.:19:59.

countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker

:20:00.:20:04.

picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an

:20:05.:20:09.

investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.

:20:10.:20:14.

Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,

:20:15.:20:19.

only one started under your watch for the others were done under

:20:20.:20:22.

Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled

:20:23.:20:27.

back from further investment including new offshore wind

:20:28.:20:30.

investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020

:20:31.:20:35.

anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,

:20:36.:20:39.

the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I

:20:40.:20:43.

capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,

:20:44.:20:50.

so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have

:20:51.:20:53.

no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.

:20:54.:20:58.

Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones

:20:59.:21:03.

you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a

:21:04.:21:07.

short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan

:21:08.:21:12.

auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed

:21:13.:21:15.

plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term

:21:16.:21:21.

plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be

:21:22.:21:25.

built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's

:21:26.:21:29.

a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more

:21:30.:21:34.

expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap

:21:35.:21:37.

energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices

:21:38.:21:43.

is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You

:21:44.:21:50.

have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.

:21:51.:22:01.

All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low

:22:02.:22:10.

Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the

:22:11.:22:15.

last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys

:22:16.:22:18.

prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the

:22:19.:22:23.

Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the

:22:24.:22:26.

time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas

:22:27.:22:31.

could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by

:22:32.:22:34.

the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per

:22:35.:22:40.

megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.

:22:41.:22:49.

Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,

:22:50.:22:52.

Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is

:22:53.:22:56.

an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power

:22:57.:23:00.

plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices

:23:01.:23:05.

except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations

:23:06.:23:10.

paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper

:23:11.:23:13.

carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's

:23:14.:23:19.

very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the

:23:20.:23:23.

pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in

:23:24.:23:27.

May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.

:23:28.:23:32.

You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure

:23:33.:23:38.

is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the

:23:39.:23:44.

first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.

:23:45.:23:51.

If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their

:23:52.:23:57.

partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about

:23:58.:24:03.

lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than

:24:04.:24:09.

the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are

:24:10.:24:14.

targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that

:24:15.:24:18.

that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say

:24:19.:24:23.

that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few

:24:24.:24:27.

years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a

:24:28.:24:32.

single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s

:24:33.:24:37.

what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in

:24:38.:24:42.

technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in

:24:43.:24:45.

mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were

:24:46.:24:54.

clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put

:24:55.:24:59.

the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on

:25:00.:25:03.

investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will

:25:04.:25:09.

guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't

:25:10.:25:13.

that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two

:25:14.:25:18.

separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply

:25:19.:25:22.

retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale

:25:23.:25:27.

side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are

:25:28.:25:31.

comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to

:25:32.:25:37.

do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,

:25:38.:25:40.

there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we

:25:41.:25:48.

haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will.

:25:49.:25:50.

haven't got more time. Thank you. happened to the BNP? The far right

:25:51.:25:55.

party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so

:25:56.:25:59.

long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be

:26:00.:26:02.

speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first

:26:03.:26:04.

here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment

:26:05.:26:08.

in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at

:26:09.:26:11.

their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They

:26:12.:26:14.

already were the second largest party in a London council and had a

:26:15.:26:18.

London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties

:26:19.:26:28.

their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring

:26:29.:26:33.

success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded

:26:34.:26:35.

and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty

:26:36.:26:40.

retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that

:26:41.:26:43.

retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of

:26:44.:26:52.

those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were

:26:53.:26:56.

performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller

:26:57.:26:59.

parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they

:27:00.:27:03.

didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the

:27:04.:27:07.

middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities

:27:08.:27:11.

for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the

:27:12.:27:16.

outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 20 6 in

:27:17.:27:19.

Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop

:27:20.:27:23.

of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking

:27:24.:27:25.

up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's

:27:26.:27:35.

because of all the different nationality people moving in the

:27:36.:27:37.

area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived

:27:38.:27:42.

there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,

:27:43.:27:49.

they will get elected over here When I came to Barking, Dagenham and

:27:50.:27:54.

Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the

:27:55.:27:58.

local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now

:27:59.:28:02.

they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,

:28:03.:28:06.

you will find among the older white working-class population concerned

:28:07.:28:11.

that the BNP claim to represent everyone says they are nowhere. So

:28:12.:28:16.

what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,

:28:17.:28:22.

we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of

:28:23.:28:27.

extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as

:28:28.:28:34.

she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a

:28:35.:28:38.

single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would

:28:39.:28:42.

stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2 10

:28:43.:28:45.

was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to

:28:46.:28:49.

find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new

:28:50.:28:57.

political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.

:28:58.:29:00.

Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs

:29:01.:29:04.

and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,

:29:05.:29:09.

BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe

:29:10.:29:14.

that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the

:29:15.:29:17.

difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all

:29:18.:29:23.

get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP

:29:24.:29:28.

didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they

:29:29.:29:32.

will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't

:29:33.:29:36.

got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow

:29:37.:29:40.

MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this

:29:41.:29:43.

programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was

:29:44.:29:51.

after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.

:29:52.:30:06.

Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had

:30:07.:30:11.

already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time.

:30:12.:30:14.

already felt let down by his a national platform for the BNP

:30:15.:30:16.

something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.

:30:17.:30:26.

This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John

:30:27.:30:32.

Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He

:30:33.:30:36.

went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some

:30:37.:30:39.

voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here

:30:40.:30:43.

has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins

:30:44.:30:51.

me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you

:30:52.:30:55.

had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on

:30:56.:31:01.

the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is

:31:02.:31:07.

very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The

:31:08.:31:11.

main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country

:31:12.:31:18.

faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European

:31:19.:31:23.

elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were

:31:24.:31:33.

denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take

:31:34.:31:38.

place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer

:31:39.:31:43.

movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL

:31:44.:31:51.

is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not

:31:52.:31:57.

a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took

:31:58.:32:01.

a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this

:32:02.:32:07.

stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless

:32:08.:32:12.

promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on

:32:13.:32:15.

this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.

:32:16.:32:21.

Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will

:32:22.:32:26.

probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across

:32:27.:32:31.

Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I

:32:32.:32:37.

reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and

:32:38.:32:55.

Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are

:32:56.:33:00.

on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I

:33:01.:33:04.

was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party

:33:05.:33:09.

did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and

:33:10.:33:13.

Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was

:33:14.:33:16.

true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader

:33:17.:33:22.

who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy

:33:23.:33:28.

No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is

:33:29.:33:34.

irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs

:33:35.:33:40.

and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the

:33:41.:33:44.

European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose

:33:45.:33:53.

seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far

:33:54.:33:59.

right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin

:34:00.:34:10.

appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is

:34:11.:34:15.

part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with

:34:16.:34:22.

them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am

:34:23.:34:26.

perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible

:34:27.:34:31.

reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when

:34:32.:34:35.

will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely

:34:36.:34:42.

for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and

:34:43.:34:49.

self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to

:34:50.:34:55.

Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in

:34:56.:35:01.

Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just

:35:02.:35:05.

an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is

:35:06.:35:11.

completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the

:35:12.:35:16.

polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you

:35:17.:35:21.

are now going the way of the National front, heading for

:35:22.:35:25.

oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the

:35:26.:35:30.

problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years

:35:31.:35:35.

ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not

:35:36.:35:40.

around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a

:35:41.:35:44.

prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.

:35:45.:35:48.

That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are

:35:49.:35:52.

prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing

:35:53.:35:57.

this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how

:35:58.:36:02.

irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New

:36:03.:36:07.

Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would

:36:08.:36:12.

turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they

:36:13.:36:16.

put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of

:36:17.:36:20.

bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.

:36:21.:36:23.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

:36:24.:36:26.

Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here

:36:27.:36:37.

Hello and welcome to the programme for us in the East. Coming tp,

:36:38.:36:44.

school dinners. The Lib Dems may want free school meals for xoung

:36:45.:36:49.

children, but what will it lakes to make it happen. Jesus fed the 5 00,

:36:50.:36:57.

I don't we will be doing it. And how fair is held funding?

:36:58.:36:59.

Part of this region have more elderly people than anywherd else in

:37:00.:37:03.

the country, but it is clailed they are missing out. The formalhn

:37:04.:37:08.

continues to disseminate ag`inst elderly and discriminates against

:37:09.:37:13.

people rural areas. `` people in rural areas.

:37:14.:37:19.

First let's meet our guests ` Peter Bone, the Conservative MP for

:37:20.:37:21.

Wellingborough and Gavin Shtker Labour's MP for Luton South. And I'd

:37:22.:37:24.

like to start with this week's teachers' strike. 540 schools in the

:37:25.:37:29.

region were hit by strike action. Teachers walked out, protesting over

:37:30.:37:31.

pay, pensions and working conditions.

:37:32.:37:43.

There are three key aspects of the campaign. Initially it was `

:37:44.:37:48.

penchant issue but we also worried about workload and excessivd

:37:49.:37:50.

bureaucracy and the destruction of the pay bargaining system.

:37:51.:37:59.

Gavin Shuker, performance rdlated pay will change teachers bloop

:38:00.:38:02.

salaries, but why should thd bad be paid as much of the good? If you

:38:03.:38:07.

look at the evidence around the quality of teachers, we are working

:38:08.:38:14.

with teachers to improve thdir assessments in classroom. Mhchael

:38:15.:38:18.

Gove is approaching this because he wants to have a fight with the

:38:19.:38:21.

trades unions and individual teachers. It is usually distressing

:38:22.:38:26.

for people at school, but there is a line in the sand. The NUT s`ys that

:38:27.:38:32.

nobody wants to speak to thdm, that Michael Gove will not come to the

:38:33.:38:38.

table? This is going back through 70s, because the teachers jtst want

:38:39.:38:42.

to go on strike. It is a ridiculous thing to do. Most people recognise

:38:43.:38:47.

that Michael Gove's reforms are working. Do you think they come to

:38:48.:38:53.

the decision like that lightly? Yes, I think it is a throwback to union

:38:54.:38:58.

power. In a lot of teachers carried on anyway and a lot of schools were

:38:59.:39:05.

very unhappy about the strike. But individual pay bargaining whll

:39:06.:39:09.

reward success, it will incdntivise people. If you believe the dducation

:39:10.:39:20.

is a market, it will drive down .. Do you think the reforms help

:39:21.:39:25.

education? No, I think they take people who we asked to servd as our

:39:26.:39:29.

communities, and that is wrong. It may be a key Liberal Democrat

:39:30.:39:33.

policy that in six months' time all 4`, 5` and 6`year`olds will be

:39:34.:39:36.

entitled to free hot dinners at school, but can it be delivdred It

:39:37.:39:39.

seems not, unless substanti`l amounts of money are spent to

:39:40.:39:41.

upgrade our school kitchens. The problem is particularly acute in

:39:42.:39:44.

Essex, where the council is asking schools to come up with ?700,00 to

:39:45.:39:48.

fund improvements. Here's Tom Barton.

:39:49.:39:51.

It's lunchtime at Montgomerx Infant School in Colchester. About 70

:39:52.:39:56.

pupils here have a hot lunch every day. But from September all of these

:39:57.:40:00.

four`, five` and six`year`olds will be entitled to a free hot mdal. I

:40:01.:40:12.

have school dinners on Mond`ys, Wednesdays and Fridays. Got some

:40:13.:40:20.

burgers, chips and beans. Is it nice? It is very nice. It is all

:40:21.:40:29.

warmer and the packed lunchds, they are cold and you don't like to eat

:40:30.:40:32.

cold dinners. The number of hot dinners eaten by pupils herd is

:40:33.:40:35.

likely to more than triple from September. The school is gohng to

:40:36.:40:39.

build a new serving area to help it cope. But the head still dodsn't

:40:40.:40:42.

know quite where all of the children will sit. Because the dining room

:40:43.:40:52.

just isn't big enough. Do you sing the government spent enough time

:40:53.:40:55.

thinking about the difficulties that schools will face in implemdnting

:40:56.:41:00.

this? No, I don't think thex understood it at all. They needed to

:41:01.:41:04.

get out into schools and talk to headteachers about the impact it

:41:05.:41:08.

would have. It has not been thought out. The main cooking suite will be

:41:09.:41:14.

along beside. At the Wickford Infant School, a brand`new kitchen is being

:41:15.:41:18.

built. With support from thd County Council, which is helping hdads

:41:19.:41:21.

prepare for the changes. Thdy have got concerns with regard to

:41:22.:41:26.

timelines and achieving it. But because they are educators, they

:41:27.:41:29.

have not got the expertise themselves to understand wh`t is

:41:30.:41:33.

involved. We working with e`ch school individually and sayhng by

:41:34.:41:37.

the date, we will need to h`ve done this task and this task, so that we

:41:38.:41:41.

are on track to achieve what we need to achieve. The government has given

:41:42.:41:45.

Essex County Council ?3.1m to pay for upgrades to school kitchens But

:41:46.:41:49.

the work is going to cost ?3.8m The County Council is asking schools to

:41:50.:41:52.

make up the difference. In lost cases they will be paying 24% of the

:41:53.:42:03.

cost. The initiative is good but from our point of view as the local

:42:04.:42:10.

authority, there is always ` difficulty in making the cache fits

:42:11.:42:13.

the requirement. It would h`ve been nice to have some more monex but we

:42:14.:42:18.

are doing the best that we can with what we have got. Most schools in

:42:19.:42:23.

Essex, like this one, already provide hot dinners for somd of

:42:24.:42:28.

their pupils. They have a hdad start when it comes to getting re`dy for

:42:29.:42:32.

September. But there are a few schools which do not providd any

:42:33.:42:37.

sort of hot meal and for thdm, this is a much bigger job. At St Peter's

:42:38.:42:41.

Catholic Primary in Billericay, all of the children bring packed

:42:42.:42:43.

lunches. The kitchen here w`s closed down several years ago. And the head

:42:44.:42:49.

says replacing it would simply be too expensive. This is the only area

:42:50.:42:58.

that we can viably build a kitchen. It would cost us in the reghon of

:42:59.:43:03.

?500,000, which we have not got Even with a grant from the council,

:43:04.:43:07.

the school would be faced whth a bill of tens of thousands of pounds.

:43:08.:43:13.

So you are in this situation, where central government say you lust

:43:14.:43:16.

provide hot dinners to all of your infants but you don't have `

:43:17.:43:24.

kitchen? Yes. How do you resolve that conundrum? I don't know that we

:43:25.:43:32.

can. The only way that I can see, if we have to provide the meals, would

:43:33.:43:38.

be to build a kitchen, a separate kitchen. On this site, in otr

:43:39.:43:43.

circumstances, without afflhcting `` affecting detrimentally the

:43:44.:43:50.

curriculum, we would have to build a kitchen. And the funding is not

:43:51.:43:55.

there. From where you are now, there is no conceivable way that xou will

:43:56.:43:59.

be delivering hot dinners to your infant pupils in September, is

:44:00.:44:06.

there? Jesus fed the 5000, H don't think we would do that. We would

:44:07.:44:10.

need him to come and give us a hand. Earlier I spoke to the Liberal

:44:11.:44:13.

Democrats' Education Spokepdrson and Norwich MP, Simon Wright, and I

:44:14.:44:16.

asked him if his party knew how expensive this policy would be

:44:17.:44:20.

before Nick Clegg announced it. Well, this policy has been very

:44:21.:44:24.

clearly costed based on the experience that has come from the

:44:25.:44:30.

pilot schemes. This is not ` new initiative out of nowhere. There

:44:31.:44:34.

have been pilots running from 2 09 which has given the Departmdnt for

:44:35.:44:38.

Education a very clear understanding of what the needs for this policy.

:44:39.:44:47.

Is dashes will mean for pardnts that they will know that each chhld is

:44:48.:44:52.

eligible. But what about thd schools who say they do not have thd

:44:53.:44:58.

resources to build the kitchens Much of the independent evidence

:44:59.:45:02.

provided to the departments have not identified lack of funding `s being

:45:03.:45:09.

a significant issue. But thd basis of the pilot scheme has meant that

:45:10.:45:15.

the government has put up ?050 million for improvements for

:45:16.:45:18.

schools. Essex is getting ?3 million of that, one of the biggest

:45:19.:45:24.

recipients of funding. That is as maybe, but we heard schools they're

:45:25.:45:28.

saying that there would havd to put up 25% of the total cost and they

:45:29.:45:31.

have better things to their money on? Different schools and

:45:32.:45:39.

headteachers will come to dhfferent conclusions having disgusted with

:45:40.:45:42.

their local council. The government has put together an advice `nd

:45:43.:45:47.

support package for those schools was facing particular probldms. That

:45:48.:45:51.

has been funded to the tune ?10 million. So schools in Essex which

:45:52.:45:56.

feel they have a particular problem can go there for advice and on the

:45:57.:46:01.

basis of evidence collected from the Phailin schemes, perhaps agree a

:46:02.:46:06.

solution for their circumst`nces. Shouldn't you as a party made a

:46:07.:46:11.

better job `` have made a bdtter job of checking the circumstancds

:46:12.:46:17.

beforehand? The pilot startdd in 2009, so it has been tested on the

:46:18.:46:21.

ground. Liberal Democrats are happy that we are able to deliver those in

:46:22.:46:27.

government five years later. But how able are you to deliver it when they

:46:28.:46:31.

schools says they do not know how they will deliver it? The policy

:46:32.:46:35.

will be delivered because most headteachers are very posithve about

:46:36.:46:41.

the announcement, as our local councils. Essex County Council

:46:42.:46:44.

issued a press release in rdsponse to this policy, and said help

:46:45.:46:49.

welcome the ?3 million was because it would enable schools to deliver.

:46:50.:46:53.

I think it is important that families will see the benefhts of

:46:54.:46:57.

savings in their pockets, and children will be able to eat

:46:58.:47:01.

healthily and improve their attainment. Pilots have shown that

:47:02.:47:04.

children who are well fed in school do better in school. Will you not

:47:05.:47:13.

have to backpedal and go back to schools and say that they whll have

:47:14.:47:17.

to give children a sandwich instead of a meal? There is no question of

:47:18.:47:26.

backpedalling on this policx. It will start in September and we have

:47:27.:47:29.

written it into legislation so there is a clear expectation now for

:47:30.:47:34.

schools. This is a long`terl policy that they have confidence in

:47:35.:47:37.

investing in and supporting on the ground. I think it is welcole that

:47:38.:47:42.

heads will be able to work with local councils and the Department

:47:43.:47:45.

for Education to make sure that children benefit. This has `lready

:47:46.:47:51.

been labelled as some commentators as a problem policy. This could be

:47:52.:48:01.

the next tuition fees issue? I don't agree with that. One dashes some

:48:02.:48:09.

people have come out very critically, but they were already

:48:10.:48:14.

critics. Ministers set policy and they said their policy on the basis

:48:15.:48:18.

of the evidence. The pilot schemes that took place in 2009 provided

:48:19.:48:22.

ministers with the evidence they needed to give this policy the

:48:23.:48:30.

go`ahead. Thank you for joining us. Gavin Shuker, let's talk about the

:48:31.:48:34.

principle of this. A free hot meal, a good idea? Yes, it was a good

:48:35.:48:44.

idea. We put up a pilot when we were in power to see what the issues

:48:45.:48:47.

would be. One of the issues was if you don't have a kitchen, you can't

:48:48.:48:55.

deliver it. It is unworkabld? It sounds like in Nick Clegg cock up.

:48:56.:49:03.

But this is a coalition govdrnment problem, because you traded it off

:49:04.:49:15.

against marriage tax? We tr`ded it off because they wanted somdthing

:49:16.:49:19.

and we finish up with something that is a not thought out policy. What

:49:20.:49:23.

will happen now, will there be backpedalling? Well, it looks

:49:24.:49:29.

like... How can a school produce hot meals without a kitchen? Nick Clegg

:49:30.:49:35.

has got form on this. He has announced things which have no

:49:36.:49:42.

chance... David Cameron announces things that cannot be taken through.

:49:43.:49:51.

The pasty tax, selling the forest? Those policies could have h`ppened.

:49:52.:49:57.

You cannot deliver from a khtchen that does not exist. Simon Wright

:49:58.:50:03.

said that this is another coalition car crash. Michael Gove found out

:50:04.:50:09.

before it was announced that it was going to be announced. Nick Clegg

:50:10.:50:18.

did not calculated. He did not factor in building more provision.

:50:19.:50:23.

So if you were in power, yot would not go through with it? You said

:50:24.:50:30.

that the pilots happened in 200 . It is in legislation now, so if we are

:50:31.:50:35.

in government, sometime next year... You don't need to worry

:50:36.:50:40.

about that! Oh, thank you vdry much. What will you do `` what will

:50:41.:50:48.

they do? I think they will get a limited roll`out and there were

:50:49.:50:52.

presented as a triumph. But many kids will miss out. If it is a good

:50:53.:50:58.

idea, it will be rolled out. But clearly, there have to be

:50:59.:51:03.

exceptions. Is it good enough to give children a freak cold leal if

:51:04.:51:08.

they hot milk cannot be provided? The reality is that that is what

:51:09.:51:12.

will be divided. They cannot knock up a kitchen in seven months. Where

:51:13.:51:18.

my son goes to school, they have hot milk. Sometimes `` they havd hot

:51:19.:51:22.

meals. Sometimes he takes a sandwich because he does not like thd meal.

:51:23.:51:28.

Burgers and chips are not necessarily the most healthx food.

:51:29.:51:32.

And Apple might be better. We would ask what you have for breakfast

:51:33.:51:36.

Now, it may seem pretty obvhous that elderly people will need more health

:51:37.:51:39.

care, so you might expect that funding would be higher in places

:51:40.:51:42.

with more pensioners. But you'd be wrong. Suffolk MP Therese Coffey has

:51:43.:51:46.

criticised the funding formtla used to calculate the amount of loney

:51:47.:51:50.

given to GPs for patient care. She's claims that elderly people hn her

:51:51.:51:59.

constituency are missing out. When I think NHS England turned its back on

:52:00.:52:04.

the needs of elderly patients, when its targets head in the sand on the

:52:05.:52:08.

dawning impact of an ageing population, and when it crulbles to

:52:09.:52:11.

political pressure from the Labour Party, he was able `` an opportunity

:52:12.:52:18.

for the board of NHS England to put right the funding formula so that it

:52:19.:52:22.

will provide equally for people in terms of need and access to

:52:23.:52:25.

services, and frankly, I thhnk they bottled it. New line And it's not

:52:26.:52:28.

just in Suffolk ` this affects many parts of the region. Accordhng to

:52:29.:52:31.

NHS England, Norfolk has ond of the highest proportions of older people.

:52:32.:52:34.

27% of people in North Norfolk are over 65, yet the allocation per head

:52:35.:52:41.

is only ?1,260 a year. Whild in Knowsley, in Merseyside, whdre only

:52:42.:52:47.

15% of the population is elderly. They get ?1,539 per head, almost

:52:48.:52:57.

?300 more. Historically, rural counties were deemed to be healthier

:52:58.:53:02.

places. Therefore they were given less money. That has now

:53:03.:53:06.

fundamentally changed because in urban areas, you have as a rule a

:53:07.:53:11.

population profile that is xounger than Enron areas. That is why the

:53:12.:53:18.

funding formula has not caught up. At the end of that debate, there was

:53:19.:53:22.

no promise that the funding for Miller would change, do you think it

:53:23.:53:27.

should? I think to Reza is right to bring that up. In my county, we have

:53:28.:53:34.

had the most badly funded PCT in the country. The Formula one is changed

:53:35.:53:40.

to help things but because of a report, we never got what wd wanted.

:53:41.:53:48.

We have a series of local hdalth services funded at different rates,

:53:49.:53:55.

which is fundamentally wrong. We lose out in Northamptonshird. It is

:53:56.:53:57.

no good having another formtla if you don't change that for Mhller.

:53:58.:54:06.

You would have to take it away from areas that have got it. The

:54:07.:54:13.

allegation is that it was the Labour Party who would deprivation in urban

:54:14.:54:16.

areas ahead of the needs of elderly people in rural areas. Broadly

:54:17.:54:25.

correct. It is around the f`ct that health inequality blights lhves In

:54:26.:54:28.

my constituency today, you `re less likely to live in a `` to a ripe old

:54:29.:54:37.

age than in your constituency. 1035 of funding per elderly person where

:54:38.:54:43.

11.3% of the population are elderly. Is that enough? I will fight for as

:54:44.:54:49.

much as I can get for my constituency as Peter would do for

:54:50.:54:54.

his and as to raise coffee hs doing for hers. But you have to m`ke a

:54:55.:55:00.

judgement. There are more elderly people in the areas but thex are

:55:01.:55:05.

more healthy than people living in my constituency. They are stffering

:55:06.:55:07.

with long`term conditions lhke diabetes. Do we need a

:55:08.:55:15.

recalculation? We need a fahrer formula and a government with the

:55:16.:55:20.

courage to implement it. Thd problem is not that before Miller is wrong,

:55:21.:55:25.

it is that you don't get pahd what before Miller says. Other areas get

:55:26.:55:29.

over funded. We are committdd to spending more money on the house

:55:30.:55:32.

service but there is no point in doing that if it is not spent in the

:55:33.:55:38.

right area. I do agree with that. Bedfordshire Police have suffered

:55:39.:55:43.

because we were expecting to get more money because we are a growing

:55:44.:55:47.

county. But because other areas are getting smaller, they are gdtting

:55:48.:55:54.

more money. Should this isste rise above party policy? Absolutdly. We

:55:55.:55:59.

need to have a proper debatd as to where we should best and best you'll

:56:00.:56:04.

cash for the health service. It was reviewed back in December or

:56:05.:56:10.

November last year and that was what Dr Coffey was complaining about

:56:11.:56:15.

Don't look at before Miller, look at what they are being paid. `` don't

:56:16.:56:20.

look at the formula. Now it's time for the round`up of

:56:21.:56:23.

our political week with Deborah McGurran, all in 60 seconds.

:56:24.:56:29.

Monitor is to send a team into the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in King's

:56:30.:56:34.

Lynn ` which is millions of pounds in debt and and has met onlx one

:56:35.:56:40.

target in a 32`point action plan. And a huge blow for Corby this week

:56:41.:56:44.

as Solway Foods announced that the 400 jobs it had hoped to kedp will

:56:45.:56:48.

have to go after all, bringhng the total to 900 job losses when the the

:56:49.:56:54.

factory closes down this sulmer This is really disappointing but it

:56:55.:56:57.

is particularly bad news for the families which will be directly

:56:58.:57:00.

affected. The rail campaign for faster trains

:57:01.:57:03.

between Norwich and London held a summit in Essex. We want better

:57:04.:57:08.

quality of service, faster journey times in particular.

:57:09.:57:11.

And welcome news for the Wellingborough MP Peter Bond and his

:57:12.:57:14.

wife Jenny. They won't face benefit fraud charges after a dispute with

:57:15.:57:16.

Northamptonshire County Council over residential care for Mrs Bone's

:57:17.:57:26.

mother. The people will not believe the Chancellor when he says...

:57:27.:57:29.

While a slip of the tongue by Ipswich MP Ben Gummer lightdned the

:57:30.:57:32.

mood on the Tory benches during the welfare cap debate. That is as close

:57:33.:57:43.

as he will get! Peter Byrne, that must have been a

:57:44.:57:49.

huge relief. Relief is not the right word. There are certainly no

:57:50.:57:53.

elation. The problem that wd came across that we had 14 months left in

:57:54.:58:01.

limbo. The problem `` interdsting thing about those months is we found

:58:02.:58:08.

out about how many other people were left in limbo. So many of mx

:58:09.:58:11.

constituents were eventuallx told they had done nothing wrong. What

:58:12.:58:19.

about a possible civil action? I have never had a contractual

:58:20.:58:22.

relationship with the Countx Council. There was a nation`l

:58:23.:58:29.

newspaper article and what they said was wrong. Gavin Shuker, yot voted

:58:30.:58:34.

for the welfare cat, do you support it? Well, there was a polithcal bear

:58:35.:58:42.

trap set by the Chancellor `nd I have no intention wandering straight

:58:43.:58:46.

into it. We are talking abott capping the total sum, but not

:58:47.:58:50.

changing the total welfare. Jules Osborne would have had to come back

:58:51.:58:55.

to the `` George Osborne wotld have had to come back to the house to ask

:58:56.:59:00.

to extend it. Do you not fedl that as a Labour MP, you wore dilutive

:59:01.:59:06.

the brand? It is not what L`bour stand for? Well, what does Labour

:59:07.:59:13.

stand for? Nobody knows! Labour stands for being credible on the

:59:14.:59:16.

economy. For getting people back into work. We will have to leave it

:59:17.:59:24.

there. Thank you both very luch That's it. Keep in touch vi` our

:59:25.:59:28.

website where you will also find links to Deborah McGurran's blog

:59:29.:59:29.

with political updates. boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.

:59:30.:59:33.

Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.

:59:34.:59:41.

Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP

:59:42.:59:51.

finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin

:59:52.:59:54.

with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London

:59:55.:59:57.

about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs

:59:58.:00:01.

about the fact that they won a few back in 1993. That was enough to

:00:02.:00:02.

cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think

:00:03.:00:05.

the big difference with the National front in France is that they are

:00:06.:00:10.

building on decades of successful that they finished second in the

:00:11.:00:14.

presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they

:00:15.:00:19.

were versions of their politics So they are building on a lot whereas

:00:20.:00:23.

the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.

:00:24.:00:32.

It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of

:00:33.:00:37.

its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not

:00:38.:00:43.

as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in

:00:44.:00:47.

the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same

:00:48.:00:54.

about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is

:00:55.:01:00.

pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about

:01:01.:01:03.

immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to

:01:04.:01:06.

an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council

:01:07.:01:09.

houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.

:01:10.:01:14.

We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As

:01:15.:01:19.

extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the

:01:20.:01:26.

comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left

:01:27.:01:33.

as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement

:01:34.:01:39.

that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.

:01:40.:01:50.

Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its

:01:51.:01:53.

act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge

:01:54.:01:58.

and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist

:01:59.:02:04.

party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have

:02:05.:02:09.

voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and

:02:10.:02:15.

France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when

:02:16.:02:23.

they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because

:02:24.:02:29.

the next election was 2007. 200 they came second when Jean-Marie Le

:02:30.:02:38.

Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put

:02:39.:02:48.

them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much

:02:49.:02:53.

harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than

:02:54.:02:57.

there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If

:02:58.:03:11.

Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the

:03:12.:03:15.

centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the

:03:16.:03:19.

second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does

:03:20.:03:25.

and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's

:03:26.:03:28.

doing masterfully is election as well. I think what she's

:03:29.:03:32.

right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.

:03:33.:03:36.

She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes

:03:37.:03:40.

from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who

:03:41.:03:46.

would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current

:03:47.:03:50.

president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties

:03:51.:03:54.

have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP

:03:55.:03:59.

are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at

:04:00.:04:03.

issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are

:04:04.:04:09.

quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes

:04:10.:04:14.

from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer

:04:15.:04:18.

for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are

:04:19.:04:21.

rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they

:04:22.:04:26.

become part of the system that people were voting against in the

:04:27.:04:31.

first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour

:04:32.:04:35.

Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday

:04:36.:04:39.

Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you

:04:40.:04:44.

are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the

:04:45.:04:49.

Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I

:04:50.:04:54.

have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record

:04:55.:04:58.

briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the

:04:59.:05:04.

mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been

:05:05.:05:11.

a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.

:05:12.:05:18.

There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and

:05:19.:05:25.

they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit

:05:26.:05:29.

still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the

:05:30.:05:32.

coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary

:05:33.:05:38.

changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.

:05:39.:05:41.

What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this

:05:42.:05:48.

has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a

:05:49.:05:52.

very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and

:05:53.:05:57.

then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The

:05:58.:06:02.

British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party

:06:03.:06:05.

political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people

:06:06.:06:11.

from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a

:06:12.:06:14.

bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being

:06:15.:06:20.

unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining

:06:21.:06:25.

characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a

:06:26.:06:29.

lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the

:06:30.:06:33.

budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the

:06:34.:06:36.

signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.

:06:37.:06:40.

The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has

:06:41.:06:46.

the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price

:06:47.:06:52.

freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these

:06:53.:06:56.

energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for

:06:57.:07:00.

that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up

:07:01.:07:03.

with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student

:07:04.:07:10.

tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price

:07:11.:07:13.

freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the

:07:14.:07:17.

Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming

:07:18.:07:24.

the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick

:07:25.:07:32.

through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in

:07:33.:07:38.

2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what

:07:39.:07:43.

campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the

:07:44.:07:47.

scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be

:07:48.:07:52.

winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was

:07:53.:07:56.

because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87

:07:57.:08:02.

or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What

:08:03.:08:05.

they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government

:08:06.:08:09.

because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or

:08:10.:08:13.

February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of

:08:14.:08:17.

animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must

:08:18.:08:23.

be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological

:08:24.:08:27.

differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how

:08:28.:08:33.

little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have

:08:34.:08:38.

outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he

:08:39.:08:43.

is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There

:08:44.:08:48.

was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And

:08:49.:08:54.

Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions

:08:55.:09:02.

is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those

:09:03.:09:07.

two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not

:09:08.:09:10.

done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed

:09:11.:09:15.

Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with

:09:16.:09:20.

the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the

:09:21.:09:24.

debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

:09:25.:09:29.

We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s

:09:30.:09:33.

remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.

:09:34.:09:41.

I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...

:09:42.:09:49.

Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with

:09:50.:09:56.

you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the

:09:57.:10:05.

drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is

:10:06.:10:11.

simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I

:10:12.:10:17.

don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the

:10:18.:10:24.

facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better

:10:25.:10:30.

here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great

:10:31.:10:40.

not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.

:10:41.:10:45.

Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this

:10:46.:10:51.

week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate

:10:52.:10:55.

for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the

:10:56.:11:02.

other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult

:11:03.:11:06.

argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he

:11:07.:11:10.

distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just

:11:11.:11:14.

closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU

:11:15.:11:18.

immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away

:11:19.:11:23.

from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us

:11:24.:11:28.

to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his

:11:29.:11:34.

reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.

:11:35.:11:38.

I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage

:11:39.:11:44.

would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public

:11:45.:11:48.

favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question

:11:49.:11:56.

is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to

:11:57.:12:03.

that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a

:12:04.:12:09.

binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on

:12:10.:12:13.

opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg

:12:14.:12:16.

needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very

:12:17.:12:21.

well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he

:12:22.:12:27.

said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to

:12:28.:12:32.

talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had

:12:33.:12:34.

made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do

:12:35.:12:40.

not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,

:12:41.:12:43.

it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or

:12:44.:12:47.

without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and

:12:48.:12:50.

also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an

:12:51.:12:56.

hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but

:12:57.:13:03.

Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal

:13:04.:13:07.

with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has

:13:08.:13:12.

honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.

:13:13.:13:16.

That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime

:13:17.:13:20.

every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1

:13:21.:13:24.

o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:25.:13:31.

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