Browse content similar to 30/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP? | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
They could be Here in the east, claims th`t | :01:00. | :01:10. | |
elderly people are losing ott when it | :01:11. | :01:11. | |
In London, changes to the authority which runs the capital's Fire | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
critics. And with me, as always, the most | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage. | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
The faux pas has come at a time when campaign rushed to limit the damage. | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference. | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
force of argument is very much against those of us who want to | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
nowhere else in the nuclear deterrent is, there is | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes | :04:39. | :04:47. | |
I do not believe that will be a I do not believe that will be a | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too | :05:15. | :05:26. | |
negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped, | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
there were a couple of polls part of the United Kingdom. Yes | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen It | :06:47. | :07:03. | |
can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will | :07:09. | :07:09. | |
be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds, | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place, | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence of | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with | :09:11. | :09:11. | |
Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
another country using its. That is different. All London can really do | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Police say, give us a couple of million. | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95 of | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
by the competition and markets authorities which will look at | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016 | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
candles. Now where is that light switch? | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light | :12:24. | :12:31. | |
switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
massively. Investment has been billion a year. Last year was a | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something. | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest. | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term. | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned | :15:17. | :15:33. | |
lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000 | :15:39. | :15:48. | |
megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants, | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment but | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
historically low margins. People sure the lights stay on, we have a | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between | :17:14. | :17:14. | |
nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between | :17:15. | :17:38. | |
on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it, | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation, | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
of power companies who are building a new power station and want to | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100 | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction, | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
only one started under your watch for the others were done under | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
back from further investment including new offshore wind | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020 | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about, | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20, | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers. | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices. | :21:51. | :22:01. | |
All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low | :22:02. | :22:10. | |
Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently. | :22:41. | :22:49. | |
Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast, | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast. | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down. | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake, | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
haven't got more time. Thank you. happened to the BNP? The far right | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
already were the second largest party in a London council and had a | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties | :26:19. | :26:28. | |
their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 20 6 in | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's | :27:26. | :27:35. | |
because of all the different nationality people moving in the | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
they will get elected over here When I came to Barking, Dagenham and | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people, | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
you will find among the older white working-class population concerned | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
that the BNP claim to represent everyone says they are nowhere. So | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain, | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour. | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically, | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was | :29:44. | :29:51. | |
after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership. | :29:52. | :30:06. | |
Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
already felt let down by his a national platform for the BNP | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
something they felt they had the right to through electoral success. | :30:17. | :30:26. | |
This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were | :31:24. | :31:33. | |
denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke. | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and | :32:38. | :32:55. | |
Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose | :33:45. | :33:53. | |
seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin | :34:00. | :34:10. | |
appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
are now going the way of the National front, heading for | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country. | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you. | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
Hello and welcome to the programme for us in the East. Coming tp, | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
school dinners. The Lib Dems may want free school meals for xoung | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
children, but what will it lakes to make it happen. Jesus fed the 5 00, | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
I don't we will be doing it. And how fair is held funding? | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
Part of this region have more elderly people than anywherd else in | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
the country, but it is clailed they are missing out. The formalhn | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
continues to disseminate ag`inst elderly and discriminates against | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
people rural areas. `` people in rural areas. | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
First let's meet our guests ` Peter Bone, the Conservative MP for | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
Wellingborough and Gavin Shtker Labour's MP for Luton South. And I'd | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
like to start with this week's teachers' strike. 540 schools in the | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
region were hit by strike action. Teachers walked out, protesting over | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
pay, pensions and working conditions. | :37:32. | :37:43. | |
There are three key aspects of the campaign. Initially it was ` | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
penchant issue but we also worried about workload and excessivd | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
bureaucracy and the destruction of the pay bargaining system. | :37:51. | :37:59. | |
Gavin Shuker, performance rdlated pay will change teachers bloop | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
salaries, but why should thd bad be paid as much of the good? If you | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
look at the evidence around the quality of teachers, we are working | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
with teachers to improve thdir assessments in classroom. Mhchael | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
Gove is approaching this because he wants to have a fight with the | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
trades unions and individual teachers. It is usually distressing | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
for people at school, but there is a line in the sand. The NUT s`ys that | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
nobody wants to speak to thdm, that Michael Gove will not come to the | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
table? This is going back through 70s, because the teachers jtst want | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
to go on strike. It is a ridiculous thing to do. Most people recognise | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
that Michael Gove's reforms are working. Do you think they come to | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
the decision like that lightly? Yes, I think it is a throwback to union | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
power. In a lot of teachers carried on anyway and a lot of schools were | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
very unhappy about the strike. But individual pay bargaining whll | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
reward success, it will incdntivise people. If you believe the dducation | :39:10. | :39:20. | |
is a market, it will drive down .. Do you think the reforms help | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
education? No, I think they take people who we asked to servd as our | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
communities, and that is wrong. It may be a key Liberal Democrat | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
policy that in six months' time all 4`, 5` and 6`year`olds will be | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
entitled to free hot dinners at school, but can it be delivdred It | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
seems not, unless substanti`l amounts of money are spent to | :39:40. | :39:41. | |
upgrade our school kitchens. The problem is particularly acute in | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
Essex, where the council is asking schools to come up with ?700,00 to | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
fund improvements. Here's Tom Barton. | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
It's lunchtime at Montgomerx Infant School in Colchester. About 70 | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
pupils here have a hot lunch every day. But from September all of these | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
four`, five` and six`year`olds will be entitled to a free hot mdal. I | :40:01. | :40:12. | |
have school dinners on Mond`ys, Wednesdays and Fridays. Got some | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
burgers, chips and beans. Is it nice? It is very nice. It is all | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
warmer and the packed lunchds, they are cold and you don't like to eat | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
cold dinners. The number of hot dinners eaten by pupils herd is | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
likely to more than triple from September. The school is gohng to | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
build a new serving area to help it cope. But the head still dodsn't | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
know quite where all of the children will sit. Because the dining room | :40:43. | :40:52. | |
just isn't big enough. Do you sing the government spent enough time | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
thinking about the difficulties that schools will face in implemdnting | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
this? No, I don't think thex understood it at all. They needed to | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
get out into schools and talk to headteachers about the impact it | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
would have. It has not been thought out. The main cooking suite will be | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
along beside. At the Wickford Infant School, a brand`new kitchen is being | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
built. With support from thd County Council, which is helping hdads | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
prepare for the changes. Thdy have got concerns with regard to | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
timelines and achieving it. But because they are educators, they | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
have not got the expertise themselves to understand wh`t is | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
involved. We working with e`ch school individually and sayhng by | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
the date, we will need to h`ve done this task and this task, so that we | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
are on track to achieve what we need to achieve. The government has given | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
Essex County Council ?3.1m to pay for upgrades to school kitchens But | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
the work is going to cost ?3.8m The County Council is asking schools to | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
make up the difference. In lost cases they will be paying 24% of the | :41:53. | :42:03. | |
cost. The initiative is good but from our point of view as the local | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
authority, there is always ` difficulty in making the cache fits | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
the requirement. It would h`ve been nice to have some more monex but we | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
are doing the best that we can with what we have got. Most schools in | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
Essex, like this one, already provide hot dinners for somd of | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
their pupils. They have a hdad start when it comes to getting re`dy for | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
September. But there are a few schools which do not providd any | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
sort of hot meal and for thdm, this is a much bigger job. At St Peter's | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
Catholic Primary in Billericay, all of the children bring packed | :42:42. | :42:43. | |
lunches. The kitchen here w`s closed down several years ago. And the head | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
says replacing it would simply be too expensive. This is the only area | :42:50. | :42:58. | |
that we can viably build a kitchen. It would cost us in the reghon of | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
?500,000, which we have not got Even with a grant from the council, | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
the school would be faced whth a bill of tens of thousands of pounds. | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
So you are in this situation, where central government say you lust | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
provide hot dinners to all of your infants but you don't have ` | :43:17. | :43:24. | |
kitchen? Yes. How do you resolve that conundrum? I don't know that we | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
can. The only way that I can see, if we have to provide the meals, would | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
be to build a kitchen, a separate kitchen. On this site, in otr | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
circumstances, without afflhcting `` affecting detrimentally the | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
curriculum, we would have to build a kitchen. And the funding is not | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
there. From where you are now, there is no conceivable way that xou will | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
be delivering hot dinners to your infant pupils in September, is | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
there? Jesus fed the 5000, H don't think we would do that. We would | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
need him to come and give us a hand. Earlier I spoke to the Liberal | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
Democrats' Education Spokepdrson and Norwich MP, Simon Wright, and I | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
asked him if his party knew how expensive this policy would be | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
before Nick Clegg announced it. Well, this policy has been very | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
clearly costed based on the experience that has come from the | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
pilot schemes. This is not ` new initiative out of nowhere. There | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
have been pilots running from 2 09 which has given the Departmdnt for | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
Education a very clear understanding of what the needs for this policy. | :44:39. | :44:47. | |
Is dashes will mean for pardnts that they will know that each chhld is | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
eligible. But what about thd schools who say they do not have thd | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
resources to build the kitchens Much of the independent evidence | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
provided to the departments have not identified lack of funding `s being | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
a significant issue. But thd basis of the pilot scheme has meant that | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
the government has put up ?050 million for improvements for | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
schools. Essex is getting ?3 million of that, one of the biggest | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
recipients of funding. That is as maybe, but we heard schools they're | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
saying that there would havd to put up 25% of the total cost and they | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
have better things to their money on? Different schools and | :45:32. | :45:39. | |
headteachers will come to dhfferent conclusions having disgusted with | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
their local council. The government has put together an advice `nd | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
support package for those schools was facing particular probldms. That | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
has been funded to the tune ?10 million. So schools in Essex which | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
feel they have a particular problem can go there for advice and on the | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
basis of evidence collected from the Phailin schemes, perhaps agree a | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
solution for their circumst`nces. Shouldn't you as a party made a | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
better job `` have made a bdtter job of checking the circumstancds | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
beforehand? The pilot startdd in 2009, so it has been tested on the | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
ground. Liberal Democrats are happy that we are able to deliver those in | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
government five years later. But how able are you to deliver it when they | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
schools says they do not know how they will deliver it? The policy | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
will be delivered because most headteachers are very posithve about | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
the announcement, as our local councils. Essex County Council | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
issued a press release in rdsponse to this policy, and said help | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
welcome the ?3 million was because it would enable schools to deliver. | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
I think it is important that families will see the benefhts of | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
savings in their pockets, and children will be able to eat | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
healthily and improve their attainment. Pilots have shown that | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
children who are well fed in school do better in school. Will you not | :47:05. | :47:13. | |
have to backpedal and go back to schools and say that they whll have | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
to give children a sandwich instead of a meal? There is no question of | :47:18. | :47:26. | |
backpedalling on this policx. It will start in September and we have | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
written it into legislation so there is a clear expectation now for | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
schools. This is a long`terl policy that they have confidence in | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
investing in and supporting on the ground. I think it is welcole that | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
heads will be able to work with local councils and the Department | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
for Education to make sure that children benefit. This has `lready | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
been labelled as some commentators as a problem policy. This could be | :47:52. | :48:01. | |
the next tuition fees issue? I don't agree with that. One dashes some | :48:02. | :48:09. | |
people have come out very critically, but they were already | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
critics. Ministers set policy and they said their policy on the basis | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
of the evidence. The pilot schemes that took place in 2009 provided | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
ministers with the evidence they needed to give this policy the | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
go`ahead. Thank you for joining us. Gavin Shuker, let's talk about the | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
principle of this. A free hot meal, a good idea? Yes, it was a good | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
idea. We put up a pilot when we were in power to see what the issues | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
would be. One of the issues was if you don't have a kitchen, you can't | :48:48. | :48:55. | |
deliver it. It is unworkabld? It sounds like in Nick Clegg cock up. | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
But this is a coalition govdrnment problem, because you traded it off | :49:04. | :49:15. | |
against marriage tax? We tr`ded it off because they wanted somdthing | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
and we finish up with something that is a not thought out policy. What | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
will happen now, will there be backpedalling? Well, it looks | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
like... How can a school produce hot meals without a kitchen? Nick Clegg | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
has got form on this. He has announced things which have no | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
chance... David Cameron announces things that cannot be taken through. | :49:43. | :49:51. | |
The pasty tax, selling the forest? Those policies could have h`ppened. | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
You cannot deliver from a khtchen that does not exist. Simon Wright | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
said that this is another coalition car crash. Michael Gove found out | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
before it was announced that it was going to be announced. Nick Clegg | :50:10. | :50:18. | |
did not calculated. He did not factor in building more provision. | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
So if you were in power, yot would not go through with it? You said | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
that the pilots happened in 200 . It is in legislation now, so if we are | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
in government, sometime next year... You don't need to worry | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
about that! Oh, thank you vdry much. What will you do `` what will | :50:41. | :50:48. | |
they do? I think they will get a limited roll`out and there were | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
presented as a triumph. But many kids will miss out. If it is a good | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
idea, it will be rolled out. But clearly, there have to be | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
exceptions. Is it good enough to give children a freak cold leal if | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
they hot milk cannot be provided? The reality is that that is what | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
will be divided. They cannot knock up a kitchen in seven months. Where | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
my son goes to school, they have hot milk. Sometimes `` they havd hot | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
meals. Sometimes he takes a sandwich because he does not like thd meal. | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
Burgers and chips are not necessarily the most healthx food. | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
And Apple might be better. We would ask what you have for breakfast | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
Now, it may seem pretty obvhous that elderly people will need more health | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
care, so you might expect that funding would be higher in places | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
with more pensioners. But you'd be wrong. Suffolk MP Therese Coffey has | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
criticised the funding formtla used to calculate the amount of loney | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
given to GPs for patient care. She's claims that elderly people hn her | :51:51. | :51:59. | |
constituency are missing out. When I think NHS England turned its back on | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
the needs of elderly patients, when its targets head in the sand on the | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
dawning impact of an ageing population, and when it crulbles to | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
political pressure from the Labour Party, he was able `` an opportunity | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
for the board of NHS England to put right the funding formula so that it | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
will provide equally for people in terms of need and access to | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
services, and frankly, I thhnk they bottled it. New line And it's not | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
just in Suffolk ` this affects many parts of the region. Accordhng to | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
NHS England, Norfolk has ond of the highest proportions of older people. | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
27% of people in North Norfolk are over 65, yet the allocation per head | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
is only ?1,260 a year. Whild in Knowsley, in Merseyside, whdre only | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
15% of the population is elderly. They get ?1,539 per head, almost | :52:48. | :52:57. | |
?300 more. Historically, rural counties were deemed to be healthier | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
places. Therefore they were given less money. That has now | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
fundamentally changed because in urban areas, you have as a rule a | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
population profile that is xounger than Enron areas. That is why the | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
funding formula has not caught up. At the end of that debate, there was | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
no promise that the funding for Miller would change, do you think it | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
should? I think to Reza is right to bring that up. In my county, we have | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
had the most badly funded PCT in the country. The Formula one is changed | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
to help things but because of a report, we never got what wd wanted. | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
We have a series of local hdalth services funded at different rates, | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
which is fundamentally wrong. We lose out in Northamptonshird. It is | :53:56. | :53:57. | |
no good having another formtla if you don't change that for Mhller. | :53:58. | :54:06. | |
You would have to take it away from areas that have got it. The | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
allegation is that it was the Labour Party who would deprivation in urban | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
areas ahead of the needs of elderly people in rural areas. Broadly | :54:17. | :54:25. | |
correct. It is around the f`ct that health inequality blights lhves In | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
my constituency today, you `re less likely to live in a `` to a ripe old | :54:29. | :54:37. | |
age than in your constituency. 1035 of funding per elderly person where | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
11.3% of the population are elderly. Is that enough? I will fight for as | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
much as I can get for my constituency as Peter would do for | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
his and as to raise coffee hs doing for hers. But you have to m`ke a | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
judgement. There are more elderly people in the areas but thex are | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
more healthy than people living in my constituency. They are stffering | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
with long`term conditions lhke diabetes. Do we need a | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
recalculation? We need a fahrer formula and a government with the | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
courage to implement it. Thd problem is not that before Miller is wrong, | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
it is that you don't get pahd what before Miller says. Other areas get | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
over funded. We are committdd to spending more money on the house | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
service but there is no point in doing that if it is not spent in the | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
right area. I do agree with that. Bedfordshire Police have suffered | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
because we were expecting to get more money because we are a growing | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
county. But because other areas are getting smaller, they are gdtting | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
more money. Should this isste rise above party policy? Absolutdly. We | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
need to have a proper debatd as to where we should best and best you'll | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
cash for the health service. It was reviewed back in December or | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
November last year and that was what Dr Coffey was complaining about | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
Don't look at before Miller, look at what they are being paid. `` don't | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
look at the formula. Now it's time for the round`up of | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
our political week with Deborah McGurran, all in 60 seconds. | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
Monitor is to send a team into the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in King's | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
Lynn ` which is millions of pounds in debt and and has met onlx one | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
target in a 32`point action plan. And a huge blow for Corby this week | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
as Solway Foods announced that the 400 jobs it had hoped to kedp will | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
have to go after all, bringhng the total to 900 job losses when the the | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
factory closes down this sulmer This is really disappointing but it | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
is particularly bad news for the families which will be directly | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
affected. The rail campaign for faster trains | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
between Norwich and London held a summit in Essex. We want better | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
quality of service, faster journey times in particular. | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
And welcome news for the Wellingborough MP Peter Bond and his | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
wife Jenny. They won't face benefit fraud charges after a dispute with | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
Northamptonshire County Council over residential care for Mrs Bone's | :57:17. | :57:26. | |
mother. The people will not believe the Chancellor when he says... | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
While a slip of the tongue by Ipswich MP Ben Gummer lightdned the | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
mood on the Tory benches during the welfare cap debate. That is as close | :57:33. | :57:43. | |
as he will get! Peter Byrne, that must have been a | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
huge relief. Relief is not the right word. There are certainly no | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
elation. The problem that wd came across that we had 14 months left in | :57:54. | :58:01. | |
limbo. The problem `` interdsting thing about those months is we found | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
out about how many other people were left in limbo. So many of mx | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
constituents were eventuallx told they had done nothing wrong. What | :58:12. | :58:19. | |
about a possible civil action? I have never had a contractual | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
relationship with the Countx Council. There was a nation`l | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
newspaper article and what they said was wrong. Gavin Shuker, yot voted | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
for the welfare cat, do you support it? Well, there was a polithcal bear | :58:35. | :58:42. | |
trap set by the Chancellor `nd I have no intention wandering straight | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
into it. We are talking abott capping the total sum, but not | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
changing the total welfare. Jules Osborne would have had to come back | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
to the `` George Osborne wotld have had to come back to the house to ask | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
to extend it. Do you not fedl that as a Labour MP, you wore dilutive | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
the brand? It is not what L`bour stand for? Well, what does Labour | :59:07. | :59:13. | |
stand for? Nobody knows! Labour stands for being credible on the | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
economy. For getting people back into work. We will have to leave it | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
there. Thank you both very luch That's it. Keep in touch vi` our | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
website where you will also find links to Deborah McGurran's blog | :59:29. | :59:29. | |
with political updates. boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you. | :59:34. | :59:41. | |
Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP | :59:42. | :59:51. | |
finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
about the fact that they won a few back in 1993. That was enough to | :00:02. | :00:02. | |
cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
the big difference with the National front in France is that they are | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
building on decades of successful that they finished second in the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
were versions of their politics So they are building on a lot whereas | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country. | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive. | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest. | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the next election was 2007. 200 they came second when Jean-Marie Le | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put | :02:39. | :02:48. | |
them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If | :02:58. | :03:11. | |
Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
doing masterfully is election as well. I think what she's | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics. | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
become part of the system that people were voting against in the | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing. | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine. | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87 | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate. | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe... | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great | :10:31. | :10:40. | |
not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits. | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy, | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two. | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1 | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:25. | :13:31. |