Browse content similar to 13/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks' | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the | :00:47. | :00:47. | |
issues at stake on Politics special, we'll debate the | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal | :00:51. | :00:59. | |
Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever we'll be discussing the week ahead | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
with our panel of top political commentators. | :01:03. | :01:12. | |
Who is to blame for the failure of Norbert's incinerator plan? | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
impartial about informing people of local services. | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all. | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first. | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
reminder of what all the fuss is about. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73 | :02:24. | :02:24. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
vote is a form of proportional 751 MEPs from the 28 member states. | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers, | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
will not and UKIP simply cannot the three yards, with Conservative | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For, | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum. | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe, | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders. | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements. | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed. | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again. | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut, | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our | :06:45. | :06:53. | |
supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at | :07:29. | :07:30. | |
the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
leave, is that right? If at the time changed, I would vote to leave and | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago. | :07:57. | :08:04. | |
Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
party of government that they probably want you to leave because | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
leader missing to European leaders. Why is your | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying. | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will | :09:48. | :09:56. | |
have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford, | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue. | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats, | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
immigration. We have been open to people across the world for | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers, | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits, | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
only this week the office for National said that they did not | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
now it is back up to 212,000 a year because | :13:06. | :13:06. | |
now it is back up to 212,000 a year and no quality control from | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of | :13:34. | :13:44. | |
-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year | :14:09. | :14:21. | |
to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months. | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled, | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out. | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
benefits are changing, changing the going to say that migrants can't | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits. | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits. | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs. | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
speak. Europe is facing, for the Second World War, Armies crossing | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. . | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do? | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP. | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars. | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because, | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
"We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has | :21:18. | :21:26. | |
the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
policy. We had an Anglo French against Syria and Libya. No EU | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral. | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria, | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
controlled drones working on etch U-owned and | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
the President of the European Parliament has said that the | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO, | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
other -- on common equipment, quument o o so they can talk to each | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth, | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all. | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
work with our European partners sometimes we work with our | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries. | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back. | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP, | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were | :27:53. | :27:54. | |
jailed for expenses and benefits' crasscy. Two of your MEPs were | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds. | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
the police fascists. These people aren't here. | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country. | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate. | :31:12. | :31:21. | |
Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
Tony Blair gave away our rebate He make sure that we apply for money to | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future, | :32:01. | :32:08. | |
if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that? | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big | :34:00. | :34:01. | |
challenges. Would have the support to tackle those big | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to | :34:07. | :34:15. | |
still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say.. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission: | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now | :36:58. | :37:07. | |
have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate. | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're | :37:32. | :37:33. | |
watching the It's just gone 3pm, and you're | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, | :37:40. | :37:49. | |
Welcome to the programme. I am a Etholle George. Coming up, the | :37:50. | :37:58. | |
school claiming that it is being pushed into being an Academx, | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
despite the wishes of parents and staff. It should not be forced to | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
become an Academy when the parents and staff do not want it. Plans to | :38:09. | :38:17. | |
build an incinerator is scr`pped when a decision is failed to be met. | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
No one knows what the Secretary of State will do in regards to the | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
planning report on the incinerator. It is still outstanding. Let us meet | :38:29. | :38:37. | |
our guests. Baroness Angela Smith for Labour. And the Lib Mahdr of | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
Bedford. The only elected m`yor in the East. `` Lib Dem mayor. Vince | :38:46. | :39:06. | |
Cable met people running sm`ll businesses when he opened a college. | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
There are very good projects in parts of the country like this and | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
weather our we are putting hn money. There are factories with | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
high`tech work bringing in private investment and providing long`term | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
unemployment. This is about rebalancing the economy in the | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
North. I weigh not missing out as a region? We would like to be getting | :39:37. | :39:51. | |
more money because we can hdlp the growth that the country needs. I | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
understand Vince Cable's pohnts about rebalancing that I thhnk that | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
the growth can get from somd of the innovative projects in our region is | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
good. Angela Smith, are we getting our fair share? I am quite worried 6 | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
million out of three hundred does not sound like making the most of | :40:15. | :40:28. | |
the Eastern region. These are only bets `` bids and we have to get the | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
money to the people so they can spend it and create jobs. Some | :40:35. | :40:48. | |
people have pulled out altogether. Dave Hodgson, are some businesses | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
coming forward? We are encotraging people from Beds and it is hmportant | :40:56. | :41:04. | |
that we support them and make the best case. We need to reducd the | :41:05. | :41:18. | |
bureaucracy. Too many pulling out and not getting the money at the | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
end. And no to a David and Goliath battle over Academy schools. Academy | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
is a free from local authorhty control and are funded directly from | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
central government. They give greater freedom to schools over | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
things like curriculum. The government believes Academy schools | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
perform better and has a policy that all schools and those in spdcial | :41:42. | :41:52. | |
measures should become an Academy. One school, Cavell Primary School, | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
is being forced to become an Academy even though it has come out special | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
measures. This family has two children, seven and four. One goes | :42:07. | :42:18. | |
to school at Cavell Primary School and the other two are nastily linked | :42:19. | :42:33. | |
to the school. `` and the other to a nastily `` nursery links to the | :42:34. | :42:49. | |
school. Michael Gove says all schools in special measures must be | :42:50. | :42:58. | |
turned into academies. This is why Mr Ward and other parents h`ve | :42:59. | :43:07. | |
formed a campaign group. Thdre has been no proper consultation and we | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
have been told this is happdning and will happen from the 1st of July and | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
that is it. I do not think that anything we say will make any | :43:16. | :43:33. | |
difference whatsoever. John of Gaunt is a cooperative trust and that is | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
what parents of Cavell Prim`ry School on their school to bdcome. | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
Cooperative trusts also follow the national curriculum whereas Academy | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
schools are not obliged to do so. Last month, Ofsted give John of | :43:51. | :44:09. | |
Gaunt a good report and people are putting this down to it being a | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
cooperative school. Everybody has a say and we are looking at w`ys that | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
we can make sure that all the ideas come from everybody. Back in | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
Norwich, this man is a formdr governor of Cavell Primary School. | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
He is applying for a judici`l review at the High Court. I feel | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
disappointed and angry and H think that Cavell Primary School has been | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
treated very harshly. It is a school that is improving and is out of | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
special measures and should not be forced to become an Academy and the | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
parents and staff they did not wish it to become an Academy. Thd | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
National Association of head teachers is also supporting the case | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
and says it could have wide consequences. It could becole a | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
landmark case and there is ` danger that forced academies nation will | :45:04. | :45:13. | |
continue and that is a real worry. You are powerless when it comes to | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
what the government wants for the academies, are you not? We `re, yes. | :45:17. | :45:25. | |
We have 50 academies in Norfolk and now and it is outside my control. | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
The interim executive board was appointed to decide Academy status. | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
It implies interference frol the County Council and government, | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
saying, the pressure from the local authority and the Department for | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
Education to promote this is alienating people and creatdd an | :45:50. | :45:51. | |
atmosphere of suspicion and mistrust. At the moment, thd school | :45:52. | :46:04. | |
will become an Academy in Jtly. The decision of the High Court will | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
determine what happens in other schools across the country. We | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
wanted to put the points in the film to the Department for Education but | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
they declined an interview. They did send us this statement. | :46:17. | :46:46. | |
Angela Smith, the DfEE say that sponsored academies are improving | :46:47. | :47:03. | |
faster. . Was not time that something had to be done? The school | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
was turning around and you do have two mind what parents save. That is | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
what Cavell Primary School hs done. They are not education expects but | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
they work with the experts. The changes this government has made to | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
academies has become ideological. Academies can no longer specialise | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
nearly as an do no longer h`ve the same consultation issues we had | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
under the last government. Who wants to have parents and happy? H think | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
the trust school that we saw there, you saw how they engage in the | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
community and in every case those schools improve. That can not be | :47:45. | :47:54. | |
said of the academies. Dave Hodgson, you have a similar school that was | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
deemed to be failing six months ago and as soon `` and has now been told | :47:59. | :48:11. | |
it will be becoming an Acaddmy. Where do you stand on this? I think | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
it is being led by dogma and ideology. It is no kind of choice. | :48:19. | :48:29. | |
We should come back to a local decision for local people and | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
parents and governors working with the local authority. We continue to | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
invest in the school improvdment team. As an elected Maher, `` | :48:37. | :48:52. | |
mayor, do you have any powers? Know I don't. Does that not have to be a | :48:53. | :49:01. | |
cut`off somewhere? If the school has been struggling for four ye`rs, the | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
line has to be drawn? What would've happened under last governmdnt issue | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
would have is asked if the parents wanted an Academy and you would have | :49:12. | :49:22. | |
given the choice. The government say that it has been decided th`t this | :49:23. | :49:34. | |
has happened. It is led by dogma. While the government is keen to | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
enforce its views on educathon, it is not so forthcoming when ht comes | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
to planning decisions. Plans were rubber`stamped by councillors to | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
abandon a proposed incineration plant in King's Lynn. The council | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
says it is pulling the plug now because the Local Government | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles, sthll has not decided whether to grant the | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
scheme. The delay is set to add ?140,000 per day to the project and | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
the council says by the sumler it will no longer offer value for | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
money. The building industrx says cases like these are worrying | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
examples of how government indecision and wreck import`nt | :50:21. | :50:30. | |
projects. Derek Murphy says that novel has been dropped in it by the | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
government. He says the planning process must be speeded up. No one | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
knows what the Secretary of State will do in regards to the planning | :50:45. | :50:54. | |
report. It is still outstanding It did not adhere to itself imposed | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
deadline of January this ye`r. If he had done, project we were long gone | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
forward but as he has not, `nd as we have no knowledge of when hd will | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
make a decision, it was verx difficult to do so. He has not come | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
out with any reason yet why he should refuse planning permhssion. | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
He has said he has written to the Planning Inspectorate were some | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
questions that have yet to be answered but we do not know what | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
these questions are and it would be nice if he were more open and | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
upfront cos this is such an important project for Norfolk | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
because it has involved hugd amounts of money. Both the opponents of this | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
project and those who wanted it to go ahead on to a decision. Ht has a | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
very debilitating effect on potential infrastructure projects of | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
the large amount of money which take a lot of time to develop. Once | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
something has been called in by the Secretary of State you know you re | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
in difficult circumstances. However it is true that the process could be | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
made faster. This is about jobs and promoting growth on the grotnd and | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
that is why we have talked `bout prioritising original infrastructure | :52:07. | :52:21. | |
that can deliver growth. We are 24th out of 30 in the global lead for | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
infrastructure. Earlier this week, Andrew Sinclair met Henry Bdllingham | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
who was opposed to the plan from the start. He asked why it was taking | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
the Secretary of State, Eric Pickles, so long to make a decision. | :52:38. | :52:47. | |
The inspector spent six weeks to seven weeks because he had so much | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
to deal with. The report is not in any way unusual in the line of time | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
that it takes because the previous secretary of state to two ydars to | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
decide about the other Cory Wheelabrator incinerator at | :53:04. | :53:13. | |
Bexleyheath. But he said he made a decision in January but we still do | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
not know when it will be. That is all part of meeting targets but this | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
was a particularly, dated rdport and he was never at in all realhsm going | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
to be ready by January. The government keeps talking about | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
speeding up the planning process. What message the descent of the | :53:34. | :53:42. | |
construction industry? I thhnk it makes sense to Cory Wheelabrator. | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
You have to get the community onside if you're working on a big | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
construction project. But the fact that so long has been taken to make | :53:51. | :53:59. | |
the session, does that not lake communities where they? The | :54:00. | :54:09. | |
community was engaged in Suffolk and it was handled incredibly | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
professionally and very well and sensitively and it went through | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
This has been handled in a crass and ridiculous and stupid way. Whenever | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
you have a big infrastructure projects such as expanding `nd a | :54:24. | :54:32. | |
road are building a new nuclear power station at Sizewell, xou will | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
always have people complainhng. That is why we have a Secretary of State | :54:37. | :54:45. | |
moving things forward. As soon as that referendum to place, the County | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
Council and Cory Wheelabrator said they would not go ahead. We cannot | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
overcome that level of opposition. They tried to bulldozer through over | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
local people and you cannot do that. This was a Conservative County | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
Council which decided to put ahead `` push ahead. How do you mdnd | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
fences? This has been a verx bruising and difficult five years | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
and I have been at war with Conservative county councillors and | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
I do not want to start workhng with them again `` I do want to start | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
working with them again in ` constructive way for the benefit of | :55:31. | :55:40. | |
people in Norfolk. That was no official statement. Angela Smith, | :55:41. | :55:50. | |
there could be an enquiry into how Norfolk has got into this mdss. Do | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
you think they could have done better? I really feel for the | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
council on this one and the government is good on passing | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
legislation. The government has taken that further and are trying to | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
make it quicker but the Secretary of State holds the whole thing up and | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
that is a real danger for the council and I imagine the council | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
regrets having to spend the money cancelling the contract but I do not | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
see what choice they have if they have lost the money from thd | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
government. Dave Hodgson, where do you stand on this? I think there are | :56:27. | :56:34. | |
better ways to deal with waste and we have an even larger incinerator | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
which has had planning permhssion which was the only decision taken by | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
the infrastructure planning commission against local fedlings. | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
The bypass and Bedford has support and other projects about support | :56:50. | :56:58. | |
from the public, but it's dhfficult to see how it can work centrally | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
when we're talking about making more decisions locally. To be 24th out of | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
30 in the league does not sound great for infrastructure. Something | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
is going badly wrong and I would not want to ride roughshod over local | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
opinion. I thought Henry Bellingham made a very good point about | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
engagement. We have to look at where incinerators and waste facilities | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
are built and how the impact on local people. These things lust be | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
taken into account. That surely government and local governlent can | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
work together to achieve a luch better process. Eric Pickles said he | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
could do it in January. How do you balance this? The big incindrator | :57:45. | :57:53. | |
has had planning permission but the company is up for sale so hopefully | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
it may not go ahead. When the Secretary of State has said | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
January, we need to stick to that date. That does affect what happens | :58:02. | :58:18. | |
locally. This week, once thd new flood defences proved to be | :58:19. | :58:31. | |
unwelcome. Southend council approved plans for a seven foot high sea | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
wall. Two Northamptonshire LPs have launched their own referendtm on | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
whether Britain should stay in the European Union. It is an idda of | :58:42. | :58:49. | |
giving the biggest referendtm since the 1970s. The MP for South | :58:50. | :58:59. | |
Northamptonshire has become the new economic Secretary to the Treasury. | :59:00. | :59:08. | |
Harriet Harman set out the vision of labour for Milton Keynes. Wd have to | :59:09. | :59:18. | |
work hard to win the trust of every voter. David Cameron offered advice | :59:19. | :59:27. | |
for a little light reading. The novel by the Honourable fridnd for | :59:28. | :59:37. | |
mid Beds. Dave Hodgson, do xou get much time to read? If I had the | :59:38. | :59:51. | |
choice I think I would read the Secret Diaries of Adrian Mole. I | :59:52. | :00:07. | |
love spy books and I am looking forward to the James Naughthe book. | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
I'm also looking forward to the Peter Hennessy book. Dave Hodgson, | :00:12. | :00:29. | |
is there a book in you? Verx briefly, no. That is all from us. We | :00:30. | :00:38. | |
are off for two weeks over Daster and we will bring you the | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you, | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break. | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead. | :00:57. | :01:07. | |
We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
from the argument, the thing we did televised debate influences the | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40 | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem, | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile. | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all, | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him. | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is, | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith, | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture. | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent, | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
and tomorrow. Of course it has always been a bit like Sodom | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals. | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
BBC In 2013, the public voted for | :13:02. | :14:04. | |
a portrait of At times he's interesting, | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
of attention but for ever. | :14:26. | :14:29. |