29/01/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Is Labour playing catch-up on the welfare benefits cap? Or does its

idea of regional caps put it back in contention? We ask Shadow

Welfare spokesman Liam Byrne. Just how big is Stephen Hester's

bonus and should the Government block it? Treasury Chief Secretary

Danny Alexander joins us for the Sunday Interview.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland: We are off and running in the great

referendum challenge - but in which directions, and do you have the

stamina to keep up for the next two and half years? Come and have a

breather behind the bike sheds with We are talking to the deputy First

Minister Nicola Sturgeon and the leader of the Scottish Tories Ruth

Davidson for their take on where we've reached so far. Also the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1404 seconds

launch of the new Civic Scotland The Chancellor will announce budget

decisions when the budget comes. As a country we have done and balance

to system. If we can go further with that we can it also do more

with their income tax balance. I do want to go further and faster.

It is British policy to keep the eurozone of intact. The Germans now

think that their economic policy of Greece should be run by Brussels.

Do you support that? What is needed is a fiscal compact. That is the

right thing for them to be doing. Countries who want to be part of

the euro needs to recognise that that involves fiscal constraints.

That will apply to the United Kingdom as long as Scott and stays

Good afternoon. The Holyrood press pack regroup for

the campaigns ahead. We are joined by Nicola Sturgeon to

discuss strategy on the Norns and unnose.

And will also be joined by Ruth Davidson.

And as Civic Scotland makes his entrance, we will be joined by a

spokesperson from the Church of Scotland. The Church of Scotland

does not have a position on independence, it does not have a

position on the status quo. The Church of Scotland will want to

participate in encouraging debate, but it is unlikely that the Church

will take a fixed position. It was not just Scottish eyes or UK

eyes watching events at Edinburgh this week. There was a large

contingent of journalists from other parts of Europe and further

afield. Many were wondering what events here in Scotland might mean

Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country? This is

the document in which the Scottish Secretary laid out his plans for a

devolution referendum. Now it is the turn of the SNP.

Japan, China, Russia, Canada - these were just some of the

countries keen to understand what is going on. The UK seems to be

breaking up after the outcome of a Scottish independence referendum.

There would be some impact on the Japanese political system.

success should be in our own hands. Anytime you talk about separation

you have states that a wrestling with this issue. There are places

in the Middle East would like to see less input from their old

masters. Even if we do not agree with that it would be a blueprint

for what happens next. In the law you see precedent. If Alex

Salmond's gamble pays off a whole lot of people will look at that.

The press pack then headed up to Edinburgh Castle. Reporters mingled,

discussing their take on events. How concerned would you be about a

potential v2 from European Union states -- a potential veto? I would

prefer to take the words of the Spanish foreign minister - at no

point has not mac and he's been conveyed to the British government.

A lot of small councils have not already launched a referendum. The

debate that we have here in Scotland is not possible in Spain.

We cannot even have these debates. That is why we followed this with a

lot of interest. Spanish Basque TV braved high wins. The described

Alex Salmond as presidential. Joining me now it is Nicola

Sturgeon. How would you clarified the week you have had? It has been

an exciting and historic week for Scotland. We have set out at a time

mind and a road map towards the referendum in 2014. I trust the

Scottish people to make the right decision. Central to this debate is

the fact that they seem to want us to stay in Stirling.

We said that until the Scottish people take another decision we

will stay in Stirling. 67 independent countries are in a

formal or informal currency union so that is a reasonable position to

take. You cannot have the full for school leavers. That is going to be

impossible to deliver. That is not true. Being in a monetary union

does not mean that you do not have fiscal independence. What Scotland

lacks just now is fiscal independence. With independence we

have those levers of control. knew seeing when you go to

negotiate with the Treasury of the Bank of England where we need the

Bank of England to be the lender of last resort but you will go to the

Treasury and say these are our terms, take-it-or-leave-it? We know

what is happening in Europe. They are imposing tighter fiscal

controls. The conditions in the euro-zone are different. Scotland

is a wealthy country. We are talking about this from a Scottish

perspective. The revenues from oil and gas would go to an independent

Scottish government. Exports would support the UK currency. It would

be good for the rest of the UK as well. Would the Treasury and the

Bank of England allow Scotland to go off on a borrowing policy of its

own? The lesson from Europe is there has to be fiscal control and

discipline. Increasingly in Europe they will run it past Brussels. SNP

voters would be genuinely concerned about the interaction there would

have to be. That is obvious. independent Scotland would exercise

fiscal discipline. But you would have to agree that with the Bank of

England. That could be the case regardless of our currency

arrangements. The eurozone is a different creature. You have an

diverging economies. That is not the case for Scotland. Scotland and

the other parts of the UK are much more a mind. It would give Scotland

the fiscal independence to get the economy going that we do not have

at the moment. Within certain parameters? What I am trying to say

is what if London has not agreed that you are demonstrating suitable

discipline? We would have to demonstrate fiscal discipline.

Would you have to agree a deficit level? Scotland has operated a

budget surplus in the four years since the financial crash. We have

demonstrated fiscal discipline. you take my points that these

things matter? Even SNP supporters are saying there are some point

upon which would need absolute clarity. You are asking people to

decide yes or no in a referendum before you have concluded those

negotiations. There are questions about our pensions, our mortgages,

and fiscal controls. What you want from as is a black check. What we

about to have is a debate. It is a debate about the future of the

country. Some people have criticised us for not having a

referendum it sooner. We think it is right that there is a full

debate. We will put forward an hour proposals with full clarity. The

challenge for our opponents is to put forward a positive case for

Scotland staying in the union if that is what they believe is best

for Scotland. All we hear from other parties at the moment is

negative scaremongering. That is not good enough. When you ask

people in a referendum, the do not know the outcome of the

negotiations you will go on to have subsequently with London. When

Scotland is independent people will have the opportunity. We are

debating these things in Scotland. Just after World War II there were

only 50 independent countries. Today there are closer to 200.

you accept that as boaters the least we can expect is absolute

clarity on how things will affect has? -- as the voters. That is what

voters will get from SNP. What should happen to the bonus of the

chief of RBS? It is not acceptable for people like him to have bonuses

of that magnitude at all. The Tory government has done nothing to stop

it. Thank you. Coming up later - and the outbreak

of boarder cross Corporation. Could this be a sign of things to come?

We are speaking about high-speed real. I will want to force a more

formal alliance with our friends in the North of England so that we can

force the UK Government to see sense and bring up the rail link

through the North of England and into Scotland.

We are now joined by a leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth

Davidson. How has this leadership campaign been for you? I have

enjoyed it. The Conservative Party is on the right side of the

argument. We are talking about where we want to see Scotland going

in the future. It would be nice to get onto the sub-standard issues.

What can you contribute to the cross-party talks? We have a duty

and a keen to work closely with any body that puts forward a robust

defence of the Union. But there is no common ground between you is

there? I do not understand the question. David Cameron has been

quoted as saying there will be no further movement on tax powers.

that what it says? An increase in powers is inconsistent with being

within the UK. Is that we see it? am not going to comment on an

unnamed source. Is that there be see it? Are you saying that if you

want full fiscal powers you have to go for independence? Is that your

I want a fair referendum. That is where people have confused the

debate. Independence as against devolution. The debate is whether

we want to remain part of the United Kingdom or be a sovereign

state. The First Minister was saying that you have accepted the

question is fair and decisive. welcome to the question of us -- I

welcomed the question but was given us. It is the -- it is not the sort

of question was put into Quebec which ran to over 90 words. The

Electoral Commission will have the final say on the wording. Does it

lead changed? Quite possibly. But I want to get it right. Different

people are are giving over the actual date, the question, who

would be able to vote. For you to concede that the question is

acceptable at this stage was a ludicrous. This is part of a

process. Part of process that is overseen, I hope, by the Electoral

Commission. I will be taking part in the formal processes that will

go on. They will happen in the proper format for these things to

take place. Some analysts have said that if you frame a question, do

you agree that Scotland should be an independent country, that the

aims of the answer yes of. The question is absolutely central. Why

have you said that you are fine with the question. I said that the

question that had been put forward was decisive, clear. I also wanted

it to be legal and that is where the Electoral Commission come in.

Then you might change your mind? it needs to be tweaked, we can put

forward different views. There are different ways to flame-red. In

terms of being short, sweet and to that point, that should be welcomed.

There has been movement towards that. We have to acknowledge where

movement has been made. Considering what was brought forward in the

last Parliament by the Scottish government as a question, this has

been a huge movement from them. Where there is movement, we should

welcome that. What do you make about the bonus for the chief of

RBS? Stephen Hester. In some ways, the government's hands were tied.

But they have made sure that none of the cash part of it as a more

than �2,000 for anybody at the bank, in deferred shares. But there is a

point about the sanctity of contracts and breaking contracts.

Yes, that is the point that Labour are giving us. It is the

remunerations committee that decide. Surely you should know as well, if

you are criticising, if there is nothing that your government in

Westminster can do... I am telling you exactly what the government am

Westminster has already done. enough according to their opponents.

Neither of the banks that are partially owned by the state is

getting a cash bonus of more than �2,000. When you think of the

people that voted for you, the Tory government has allowed this Boris

to go through, it has not intervened. It is blaming

everything on the last Labour government when in fact, it was the

real -- the remunerations committee... Stephen Hester has

given up his bonus. Do I think that the government has stepped him?

Absolutely. We have made their banks have more responsible.

have to leave it there. Thank you very much.

Can you hear the voice of the people of all this political

clamour? Tomorrow, a new the recording - Tomorrow a new group

calling itself Civic Scotland is joining the fray. Their members so

far are from the unions, charities, the churches and think tanks.

Martin Syme from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations

is in our Edinburgh Studio. Why do you need to do this? We are hearing

from politicians. They seem to want to restrict the question but to get

the answer they want. We are trying to open out the debate. We have had

widespread support from non- governmental groups of all kinds.

We want to broaden the debate before we get down to options.

it not inevitable that if you are looking for alternatives to what is

already being proposed that you end up with the devo max issue? You

cannot keep this non-political? are not campaigning for any

political option. And that includes devo max. With them my membership,

we have people who will support all kinds of option. But we are

resolute that the debate needs opened up rather than closed down.

We are opposed to the proposition that there should be a decision to

go forward with a question of yes or no. It seems incredible to me

that we might spent the next few years at talking about independence

and not talking by devolution. can people expect from your

organisation? We are going to carry this debate to people in Scotland

where ever they are and what ever the interests are. We want to

connect the debate about the future of Scotland to the challenges and

aspirations above people have in their own lives. In that process,

is it not inevitable but you have to come to a conclusion and you

have to say this is what we have found. Otherwise, it is just a

talking shop and people will go to the options still available. Is it

inevitable but you have to champion what people tell you? And then you

move into the political arena? sorry if that -- ever that the

future of Scotland is of the political arena, the game is lost

already. There will be many issues arising. People will take different

perspectives from the -- from within the coalition and without.

This is not a debate between political parties. This is a debate

about the future of Scotland. It is important that people understand

the issues involved and are able to explore how those issues will be

reflected in the choices that are made available to them. Thank you

very much. You will be doing this outside the central belt as well?

Absolute left. We need to hear voices from rural Scotland, from

people in poverty, all kinds of different voices in this debate.

That has been conspicuous by its absence recently.

On Thursday, the Sunday Politics was invited to spend the day with

the Cabinet Minister for Infrastructure, Alex Neil, as he

travelled to London to address a major rail conference. Gilly

Mathieson reports on why he is stepping up pressure on the UK

Government to set a firm date for bringing high speed rail through

the north of England and on to Scotland.

We are off to London to speak at a high-powered conference on high-

speed rail and I am going to use the opportunity to begin to forge a

more formal alliance with our friends in the north of England to

try to force the UK Government to see sense and set a date for

bringing the high-speed rail link through the north of England and up

to Scotland. You can cut down the train time by well over one hour

between the Scotland and England and that will compete with a beer

trouble. -- air travel. I do not see why you cannot make a start at

both ends. Start end up London and Scotland simultaneously. That is

the way that the railway used to be built. The case to take the line

much further north is very strong. AGS to is the largest

infrastructure project in a generation. -- HS2. The Scottish

government is offering to pay half the course of extending the line up

to Scotland. We have to have some building blocks in place before

they can get the detail, like the exact a route. We are still some

way off on that. But with the independence referendum planned for

24 team, politicians south of the border will lead to take into

account public opinion. It will be hard to present to the people of

England and Wales that they should be picking up another �17 billion

if you have the Scottish Parliament pushing for an independence of

thought. The French high-speed rail network has work with its

neighbours, so what can we learn from their experience? There will

be improvements even if the infrastructure stops halfway. It is

possible to have an incremental approach which is what we had in

France. They generated improvements and then we added other stretches

and multiplied of the benefits. will be hearing from north and

south of the border in the coming weeks.

Joining us in Edinburgh is Tom Rye, Professor of Transport Policy at

the Transport Research Institute at Napier University.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us. The minister has a point, if

you are going to be building a high-speed rail link, you get to a

point where financially it makes more sense to have a longer life.

If you are interested of providing something that is useful, 400 miles

is supposed to be the best limit? asked the minister at to read of

the reports that his own civil servants have produced with regard

to high-speed rail to Scotland. That Strategic case -- even if that

mine were able to achieve a two the hour reduction in time, the journey

times savings over 60 years would be projected to be worth around 1

billion. That is very hard to get a handle on the cost of extending the

line up to Scotland. We know that the cost of the line from London to

Birmingham will be about 17 billion and extra for the trains themselves.

For a 17 billion pound cost, that would give benefits of 1 billion

which does not stack up economic clear. But you get people stopping

using their cars, there are social benefits as well as economic

benefits which are harder to quantify. And there are

environmental benefits. With regard to the Co2 benefits, promoters of

the scheme up promoted that the benefits are broadly neutral. Co2

in packs would be time aged -- the sea or to impact reduction would be

tiny. Some air travel would be reduced, but it would generate a

lot of new travel. High-speed rail does not run on no energy, it uses

car one as well. So there is no point in this like coming into

Scotland? Spain is the country with the largest high-speed rail network

in Europe. Most of it built in the last 10 or 15 years. Spain it

currently has 25% unemployment. Nor them, Scandinavian countries have

precisely zero, just of high-speed rail.

And now here's the lunchtime news, with Andrew Kerr.

Good afternoon. The Scottish underwear entrepreneur Michelle

Mone has vowed to move her multi- million business to England if the

SNP wins the independence referendum. The Ultimo creator

whose comments were reported in the Sunday Times newspaper said the

cost of doing business would inevitably rise. But the First

Minister Alex Salmond says the SNP would cut business tax in an

independent Scotland, making it a more attractive place for firms to

operate. The Scottish Government is to

improve internet access. Ministers want to boost broadband speeds with

the aim of making services as good as anywhere else in the world by

2020. They say they will improve things for up to 90% of homes,

businesses and public buildings by 2015.

Now let's take a look at the Outbreaks of rain across western

Scotland at the moment. It will be confined to that Northern Isles

later. But some showers pitching into the East Coast later. Some of

those will turn to snow over higher ground. It will be a cold in the

fresh, easterly wind. Our next news update is at ten to

seven this evening. Now back to Isabel.

Thanks Andrew. Well, this week can be seen as another staging post on

So we thought it was only right and proper to ask the all-seeing, all-

proper to ask the all-seeing, all- knowing Brian Taylor to join us for

some analysis. The First Minister spoke to you

first in that consultation launch. What do you make of what we have

heard so far? It was a remarkable week. I think the date is pretty

well said, autumn at 2014. I do not think the UK Government will

reverse that despite the complaints. I think it will be a single

question. Referendums for not just opinion polls, they are testing a

proposition it generally. A proposition advanced by the

government. The Scottish government is advancing their independence

question. The devo max question is not a mandate to discuss

independence. It is not the difficulty of testing it. It is

just a question of the mandate, who is order to do something as a

consequence of that outcome? What of significance will happen in the

next week? I think we will see a speech tomorrow from Ed Miliband in

Glasgow, an attempt by Labour to put their stamp on the devolution

argument. At the moment, it is a consultation and negotiations

between the Scottish government and the UK Government. Labour are

trying to get into that debate. Johann Lamont is demanding and

getting cross-party talks at Holyrood. Now you have Ed Miliband

coming in as well as putting a UK, Labour perspective on this. The

First Minister ones, and 20th October 14, when there could be a

Conservative alone government, he is up dedicating independence from

the Tories. -- dedicating. If the SNP were met the yes vote on the

referendum, would it be possible for Labour to go against it? I do

not think that is feasible. reason for the rules and the

process matter is for all sides have to accept the outcome. That is

why it was a little unwise for Ruth Davidson to a be appearing to give

endorsement to a question which has to half for the tests from the

Electoral Commission. If the Scottish people, palpably and

demonstrably and without contest a vote for independence, that is it.

Their game is over. If they do not, it is not. That is why it is

important to get the rules and regulations right. It is not an

opinion poll, it is something that will be decisive. Thank you very