12/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

The Prime Minister insists this morning he is at one with Health

Secretary Andrew Lansley over the troubled NHS reform. But is the

rest of the Cabinet? Eric Pickles tells us in our Top Story.

As Greece suffers and Syria bleeds, where does Labour stand on the big

foreign policy issues of the day? Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas

Alexander joins us for the Sunday Interview.

And with the Murdoch empire reeling from yet more high-profile arrests

at the Sun, we're joined by the media tycoon's chief tormentor,

Labour MP Tom Watson. On Sunday politics in Scotland, or

we will be speaking to the Scott and others about those referendum

negotiations tomorrow. And with St Valentine's Day coming up, what are

the political chat up lines to sweep you off your feet and what

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1524 seconds

has to running in the opposite And Fri did not claim that. That is

slightly wrong. He would have known that because it was in the public

domain. Parliament give its... For most people, it was not in the

public domain. I doubt if anybody would do that now, given the

climate of fear. I am certain they would do that now.

If I was fiddling my expenses, every tabloid newspaper would be on

it like a shot. To be all right to pay a Commons

official to do so? There is a public interest in all

of these. There is a public interest defence for hacking a

phone due to the level of seriousness.

Would you like to see Rupert Murdoch dispose of his remaining

newspaper and depart these shores? I would like Rupert Murdoch to

stand up for clean investigated journalism and I would like him to

clean up what went on in News International.

The seed and wanted a sell-out? I think that is down to new score?

I just want him to take responsibility. He is flying into

London this week and has to take his share of responsibility. If

people are charged as a result, is he a fit and proper person to hold

the sky licence. I do not think he is. Off, have to

apply a test to him, but over many years, wrong doing took place. He

is the boss of the company and he is responsible for corporate

governance. He is not a fit and proper person to run a television

company under the rules as they stand.

When it comes to paying the police or other public officials, this is

not confined to Rupert Murdoch's papers and this practice has been

prevalent across Fleet Street. A everyone tells me that. The only

evidence that I have seen personally is what went on at News

International. Clearly, we have to judge an inquiry that can do that.

How did we get here? It is Rupert Murdoch who appoints these big

institutions of national newspapers of repute. He is responsible for

the personnel but allow these things to happen. He must take

responsibility for it. So you do not rely did could be

happening elsewhere? I do not know.

You're watching the Sunday politics. Good afternoon and welcome to

Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme...

The Scotland Office Minister David Mundell is with us ahead of the

referendum negotiations tomorrow. How much longer can the talking go

What are the chances of getting a job these days if you're young and

Scottish? Are the politicians' youth employment strategies

working? Why new legislation to end

homelessness by 2012 could make it more difficult for people to find a

permanent home. We are none prioritised due to being single and

homeless. We have to grin and bear it. The lack of housing is unreal.

And from Bartlett's Whitehouse to Salmond's Scotland. The West Wing's

Toby Zeigler tells us what our politicians can learn from the US

when it comes to persuading voters. If the Scottish politicians were to

watch the American campaigns right now, at hopefully at opposing sides

will learn it is not necessary to get so negative. It is ultimately a

destructive factor. They are warming up in their

respective corners and round-one of the referendum negotiations get

underway tomorrow when the the First Minister meets the Scottish

Secretary Michael Moore in Edinburgh. There could be a round

two later in the week with the Prime Minister. The main sticking

points seem to be: one or two questions, and should 16 and 17-

year-olds get to vote. We spoke to Nicola Sturgeon earlier and she

told us that tomorrow's meeting is a welcome step forward. I think

there is no broad consensus in Scotland about the timing of the

referendum. We look forward to hearing views about the questions

that might be in that referendum and on issues such as to 16-year-

old and 17 year olds have the right to vote. The sooner we can get

beyond the issues of protest -- process and into the issue of

substance, which is why Scotland would be better off with an

independent country, the better. We asked for an SNP Minister to

speak to us, but nobody was available.

In our Millbank studio, we have the Conservative MP and Scotland Office

Minister, David Mundell. Will the Prime Minister the up later this

week to talk to the First Minister? The Prime Minister said he might be

in Scotland soon because he is the Prime Minister of the whole United

Kingdom and does come to Scotland on a regular basis. If he is here,

he will be speaking with the First Minister. But the discussions in

relation to the referendum will essentially be conducted by the

Scotland Office with the Scottish Government. That process is

starting tomorrow. I do not expect that tomorrow will be the final and

conclusive discussion on this issue, but it is the start of a positive

process where we can get the detail of the referendum sorted out and

for once, I actually agree with Nicola Sturgeon. We need to get on

to the substance of why a Scotland is better off in Britain.

How much longer could this drag on for?

I hope that it can be concluded as quickly as possible. I think we

have made great progress in the last few weeks, because at the

start of the year, we knew nothing about the SNP Government's

proposals for the referendum. We have a deeper, detailed suggestion.

The major step forward, an acknowledgement that there has to

be a legal basis for the referendum and that can only be with the

involvement of the UK Government. Now it, we need to get the details

sorted out and tomorrow's discussions will move that forward.

What are the lines in the sand for you?

We have always said that we want the referendum to be de Gaulle,

fair and decisive. There is an acceptance that to be legal, it

must involve the UK Government parts. Fairness clearly involves

the Electoral Commission and not necessarily changing the rules

specifically for this referendum. That will be one of the issues

around the franchise. It is an entirely separate debate as to

whether 16 year-olds and 17 year- olds should have the vote or

whether they should be given a vote for this specific issue.

There is a line-up in the sand for 16 holes and 17 year-olds are

voting. You want one question only, is that a deal breaker?

I will not conduct the discussions on this programme. It is wrong to

suggest that individual issues are deal breakers. It is clear that

everyone, it would appear, apart from the First Minister, want a

single question. That is the position of the coalition parties

in the UK level. The First Minister says he wants a

single question as well, but he wants to respond to said that

Scotland who may want another question on the ballot paper or how

it is defined. If there is a devilish and Max question on the

ballot paper, will the Government in Westminster refused to recognise

the legitimacy of the referendum? To a simple yes or no would answer

The simple question for the people of Scotland should be, do they want

to remain part of Britain or not? We need to have that question

answered and then we can move on to discuss the future of the devolved

arrangements if people opt to stay within Britain.

That is an interesting point. Michael Moore himself has said in

an interview in The Times this week that the Scotland Bill is only the

beginning of the powers that will come to Scotland. He said there

could be higher so like further taxation and that sort of things.

Do you agree with him? If we say no at this stage, or will the Scotland

Bill be just the beginning? The Scotland Bill is a very

important series of powers that is being transferred to Scotland. The

most significant financial powers since the act of Union in 17 07. It

is a significant development in devolution. In relation to post

referendum discussions on devolution, it is quite clear that

different parties will go for it with different proposals.

A but what is your party's proposal on this? What is the Conservative

Party's attitude of more power is coming to Scotland if there is a no

in the referendum to independence? We were going to the 2015 general

election with a set of proposals for Scotland.

But what are they? Ruth Davidson has said this far and no further.

What Ruth Davidson has said is that she is setting up a review of all

the policies of the Scottish Conservative Party, but nothing is

off the table. What is clear is that we will have proposals going

into the 2015 election in relation to how we see the devolution

settlement moving forward. At this time, or what we see is the

Scotland Bill being enacted Oakley within the next few months, which

will bring to Scotland than most significant financial powers since

the act of Union and other changes which command widespread support in

Scotland, such as the regulation of their guns.

In the not answering that question, in the not answering -- having a

clear policy at this stage than we are so far into the bit, do you

understand why the electorate might think that you're acting in bad

faith? You can tell us what you plan to do. It is a line in the

sand or it is not. If it is not, what other parts might you

consider? The Liberal Democrats have got a consultation under way

at the moment. Bruce Davidson has said no, there will be nothing.

Mixed messages are coming out all the time. If you are acting in good

faith, argue consulting on further powers and what will they be?

That is a total misrepresentation of my position. You're not

listening to what I have said or what Ruth Davidson has said. Ruth

has made it clear that she will review all the Conservative

policies and ahead of the 2015 election, we will set out their

policies. What powers could there be?

What is fundamentally important is that we settle the issue of whether

Scotland remains in the United Kingdom or not.

What powers would you consider? Sorry to interrupt. What more

powers would you consider? What I want to understand is

whether people in Scotland want to stay within the United Kingdom.

If they do and they want more powers, would you grant devolution

Max? If they want to stay but they want more powers, high when you

respond to that? The political community in Scotland

has always responded to calls for more powers, but that has to be a

defined package of powers. At the moment, devolution Max is undefined.

What grips like reform Scotland think it is and what the Scottish

Trades Union Congress think it are completely different things. What

we need to do at the moment is to settle the issue once and for all.

Is Scotland in the United Kingdom or not, and then move forward if

the answer is yes with the devolution settlement.

In that the terms of the question come all was the SNP Government

have in their consultation, the question is, do you agree Scotland

should be an independent country? Ruth Davidson has said she thinks

this is a fair and decisive legal question. Do you agree with that?

What she has said is that there is tremendous progress that we are

moving forward to have a proposal... As a matter of fact in Holyrood, of

what Ruth Davidson said was that -- it was a fair and decisive leader

questioned. Do you agree with her? Ruth has said that it is a matter

of progress that we move forward and have the simple question of the

sort that ask people whether or not they want to say in the United

Kingdom. Do you agree with that specific

wording? I hope there is agreement from the

SNP Government and the subject will be the Electoral Commission. That

is very important that that happens as part of this process. We need to

get it clear that we're having a fair question. That is the basis on

which I hope we will proceed. Thank you.

The latest figures show 105,000 young people in Scotland are

looking for work at the moment. Politicians of all parties launch

strategies, put forward proposals and hold summits to try to tackle

this problem. So what are they delivering on the ground? Here's

Laura Bicker. They are calling it a lost

generation. Thousands of 18 to 24 year-olds are searching for a

chance, or even a hope of some employment.

There are no jobs out there. I want to be in a trade, but tradesmen are

not taking on apprenticeships. You try so hard on the application and

do not get a return from them. The 18-year-old Sarah Thorne is

part of St League, a project to give her sports coaching skills.

She has been unemployed for two years.

I have done some courses to help me get ready for it, but never gained

anything out of them. It was 12 weeks help and then struck back to

do your own thing again and go back up and signed that book every two

weeks and you're on your own. It was horrible.

22-year-old Daniel Terry has always dreamed of being a sports coach.

Politicians could organise more programmes for people to get

qualifications so employers cannot say you were not qualified. They

should organise more programmes to get people into work in groups so

they could get their confidence up. That is a big issue that says a

month's people that do not have jobs.

This is where some of those young people hope to find work. This is

the national indoor sports arena. It has been built for the

Commonwealth Games in 2014. There are thought to be around 55 job

opportunities here, but the Scottish Government says there are

105,000 under 25 year-olds looking for work. They say they are

creating apprenticeships working with employers to create

opportunities, but the young people we have spoken to say they need

The youth employment minister Angela Constance was not able to

come on, instead we have Marco Biagi of the SNP who sits on a

Education and Culture Committee. And with me in the studio, Sarah

Thorne, who you saw in the film. Also Jo Swinson the Liberal-

Democrat MP, and Kezia Dugdale, Scottish Labour's youth employment

spokesman. What is your strategy for youth employment? The powers of

the Scottish Parliament are used. You see 25,000 apprenticeships

every year. That is 60% up on 2007. The important thing about

apprenticeships in Scotland rather than England, is that they happen

in the workplace. You have 20,000 training opportunities every year.

In Scotland we have a minister for youth employment co-ordinating

activity. Are you doing all you can? We are doing all we can with

the powers we have. Our main lever to tackle youth unemployment is

through education and training, but that does not stop us being

creative in other areas, such as securing money and using public

sector power. Is that good enough? I do not think

so. How could you do it differently? We would not cut

college budgets. The SNP have cut. 1.5 billion a year they are putting

into post 16 education when budgets are restricted. Is it about money

or the strategy? It is about all of theirs. We want to see them using

the buying power of government more effectively. The big debate about

the Forth Road Bridge. How many jobs will it create for young

people? There are questions for the SNP. Also hospitals and schools

they plan to build. The is probably not enough co-

ordination some voluntary groups say. One had 15 people funding it.

Is this a subject where party politics could be set aside?

think so. There are welcome signs that is starting to happen. From

the UK Government perspective we have the youth contract and �1

billion to invest in wage subsidies to create jobs and work experience.

There is often a lack of qualifications that can make it

difficult for young people to secured jobs. We are making sure we

work alongside the Scottish government to make sure initiatives

to Oftel. It could always be done better.

Sarah Thorne, you were in a project you found useful. What skills did

you learn? The first one I attended was a

trust that helped me build skills and gain confidence. The next step

was M I technologists who put me on a work placement that I did not

enjoy. I was not confident. I was working crazy hours the same as

anyone else and I was paid �1 per hour. It is not means tested.

would be the biggest thing politicians could do that would

mean people like you would feel they had a chance of a job? I want

on a course that is a charity. I walked in, no confidence, three

weeks ago, and I am now on national television speaking up. Just to

back and help people get into work. I will leave with six

qualifications. The downside is that it is not what I want to do,

it is care. Trying to get into a course when I don't have the

qualifications is awful. Three years I have wanted to do care.

Is there a point that could work is done through the voluntary sector.

Young people go on courses and have a proven track record and then beat

funding is withdrawn. What continuity can you guarantee?

of the funding opportunities are decided at local government. In my

constituency in Edinburgh, there is an increase in funding available

for voluntary sector projects. That was passed this week. There is

recognition these projects are valuable and need to be funded. I

have met young people who have been through the project, such as the

Canon Gate Youth Project, who talk about the boost to confidence that

provides and how it helps them to find work. The more doom-laden

stories about how the situation is bleak, the more hope can be knocked

down. It is important to have the message that there is a chance for

young people and for young people with reasonable levels of

qualifications, unemployment is on the way down.

When we look at the effect of programmes at the moment, an

apprenticeship used to be done for years, rigorous training. The

current programme focuses on 16-19 year olds. And after that you have

a mass of young people who cannot get work. What is the answer to

longer term unemployment? There is an opportunity for the Government

to address structural issues in the system and tackle that in the jobs

market. That is about investing in young people, getting them involved

in things, giving them sustained experience of work and supporting

them. Where does the money come from? It is more a matter of what

you do if you do not invest now because the cost to the future is

greater than anything invested now. Do you have any sense that possibly

we are not getting the education balance right? Business often say

there is emphasis on encouraging people into college courses and we

should be stepping back and looking at what might be more relevant.

think you get that complaint from businesses sometimes that young

people do not have the qualifications and experience they

require. That is why the youth contract is important. Nick Clegg

has pushed for that investment to enable people to have experience.

That also gives employers to see the talent out there. Sarah Thorne

is an excellent example. It gives young people the experience of what

it is like to be in the workplace. What it is like rather than having

the academic experience early. I'm glad to see that under pressure

from the Liberal-Democrats, cuts to colleges in the Scottish Parliament

were reduced this week. It is important places are available for

people who want to get a qualification so they can get into

the jobs market. Do you have any concern... You have

worked hard. You have been successful at what you have tried

to do, but have you concerns that you will put effort into a college

place, get there and get your qualification... And not have a job

by the end? I do. I dropped out of school. I wanted to prove it was

not because I was not clever enough. -- my brother dropped out. He

worked hard for five years to become a trades man, timing, and

now there is no work for him. your friends, how disheartening is

it that you do the best you can and give it everything, and there is

nothing? It knocks you down a level. What is the point of building

confidence, for it not to be recognised? It is degrading. Also,

you get a job diary at the JobCentre. You have to fill that in.

You worry your benefits will be sanctioned. We will not go down

that road just now! That is a point, nobody sitting around here,

whatever political so -- political persuasion, that somebody can give

so much and then been knocked down. I am asking about the priorities

you are choosing. Is it right to focus on the apprenticeships and

16-19 year olds, when older graduates are also struggling for

jobs, and is it right not enough money is going into the early

years? Why are you choosing the priorities you are choosing?

The 16-90-year-old age group is important. When people leave

compulsory education they have to ensure they have an opportunity.

The opportunities for all programme will be a landmark, offering to

everybody in that age bracket he does not have employment, education

or a training place. If you can stop people being unemployed at

that stage, you can have serious benefits further run. I would not

say there is no emphasis on early years. Spend has been a hallmark of

the Budget in that area. Many apprenticeships do include those up

to 24. There is a commitment across the board. There is a recognition

that full young people, in good economic times even, it is hard for

them to find work. Is that the bottom line, in hard times, young

people will suffer more? Yes. He talks about the 16-19 year olds the

gender. They have a bold step to give every young person an

opportunity, but it must be meaningful. In my experience, it

can be as little as two hours a week. People just want a job and a

chance. We have to leave this here. Thank you for that.

Before you go, you have a statement saying the SNP should drop plans to

allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote in the referendum. We understand

you are meeting the campaign group promoting votes for this age group.

I am a supporter of votes at 16 and I will continue to campaign. I do

not think with the voting franchise we should pick and choose. The SNP

plans are incoherent. They are not planning a new canvas. It would be

votes for 16 and three-quarter year olds. I do not supported for one-

off referendums. I think all those who support votes at 60 should work

together to get it changed for good and for all elections.

Housing charities warned that unless more affordable

accommodation is made available, a growing number of people will be

stuck in temporary homes. We report on why new legislation to end

homelessness by 2012 could make it more difficult for those in need to

find a permanent home. Andrew is homeless and living in a

hostel -- run by a Christian housing trust. They concentrate on

finding homes for people who need help the most. You are not

prioritised being single and homeless. You have to grin and bear

it at the moment. It is unreal. wants to get back to work. He says

finding affordable private sector accommodation is a challenge.

was a job that was ideal, unfortunately, the accommodation

around that area, where I was wanting to be, was on affordable.

This man is also home this. He has lived in his car in the Borders.

When you have been sleeping in your car, you feel nobody will give you

a chance. Hello. He is now moving into short-term housing while

borders Council find him a home. Shelter Scotland say the council is

one of nine local forages who have met the 2012 commitment. This is

the biggest challenge we have had in 20 years. It has required a root

and branch approach. We have changed policy comprehensively. We

had to change the ethos in the service to put more focused on

prevention of homelessness and sustaining 10 ounces. The bottom

line is that we will continue to need more affordable housing --

tenancies. With a lack of affordable housing and no sanctions

for councils to do not deliver, can any commitment be fulfilled? It is

important to have a goal like the Scottish howff of ending

homelessness in 2012. -- they have. You still have to have resources

there. You have to have the support system in place to enable people to

sustain housing. It is not enough to have the statements, although

they are important. By the end of 2012, local-authority is will have

to class every unintentionally homeless person as a priority and

give them access to a home. The challenge will be to make sure

people like Andrew are not stuck in With me here is the Editor of The

Big Issue, Paul McNamee. And in our Edinburgh studio, we have Graham

Brown, the director of the homeless charity Shelter Scotland.

What do you think this 2012 legal commitment is actually worth?

I think it is a great idea. Anything that grabs this and tries

to do something about the ongoing issues of homelessness is fantastic.

But something that Dennis touched on gets much closer to the problem.

It is not really enough just to build houses. You will not end

homelessness like that. Kit sounds contradictory, but that is at the

base here. There is something much broader and much more societal. You

cannot eradicate polio, and you have to get right down to the base.

Why it sort of structures are needed? You say it seems obvious

that you can put someone in a house, but what is the bigger picture

around that? With The Big Issue, we offer people

a way to get self-respect and make a living. That is a good start. But

you have to remember that these people, a lot of these people, have

incredibly different, fractured lives. They might not know how to

look after themselves properly or pay bills or make sure they are

connected to the mains. There is an awful lot of things that keeps

people in this situation. In the previous item, people were talking

about youth unemployment. If the word hope came up a couple of times.

The need hope and ambition and some kind of future. You need to work

out why that is not there for people who are falling through the

cracks and what we can do to address that.

Given what Paul has just said, are the much wider issues for a

particular section of people who are repeatedly homeless? It in the

general picture, do you think we have enough houses to meet the

current needs or planning enough for the future?

Clearly not. The 2012 commitment is a staging post. It is a process. It

is not the end in itself. There needs to be much more done and we

are all agreed about that. We welcome the Scottish Government's

commitment to bring empty homes back into use. They have been

funding programmes to do that, which makes a lot of sense. We also

welcome the additional �80 million they have invested this week in an

-- into affordable housing. It is quite clear that at the moment that

the danger is we are going to put a lot of people into temporary

accommodation. Some people can end up in temporary accommodation for

over two years. That is not a solution. We need to invest in more

affordable housing. What about this non-privatisation.

We heard in the report that if you were a single man or if you were a

childless couple that you were not made a priority. What you think

will be the effect of this legal obligation in practice that there

should be non-privatisation and everybody should get equal access?

This is the significance of the 2012 commitment. We have not just

have to use teens procedure, a be a fat to change the ethos and working

culture and attitudes towards housing and homelessness

departments and local authorities. Local authorities across Scotland

have been working hard and the Scottish Government to do that.

That will be one of the big pay- offs of this commitment. Can I just

remind people that when this commitment was made, it was made

with all-party support across the entire political spectrum and the

Scottish Parliament. What about securing tenancies and

initiatives like that? What kind of role will the private sector have?

Do you think we are imaginative enough about actually Freeman that

properly? We probably aren't, but it is

something to do with housing stock and how big can get access to that.

As has been touched on, when this came around in 2003, we did not

know about the financial catastrophe that was coming. Access

to a tenancy probably would have become a bit easier. To a lot of

things that have happened since then have meant that it is not

quite as straightforward as just putting a couple of bits of policy

into place. Is there a different experience for

people in rural areas and in cities, or how does that actually contrast?

Between rural and city, and also in different regions across the

country. The people that sell The Big Issue in London, you will find

many and younger men. In some parts of Scotland, it will beat people

who are a bit unsure about whether or not they can meet the next

payments on the rent and they are fearful of falling into

homelessness. They may have a family. There is no one single kind

of person that comes under homelessness.

Thank you. Now in homage to St Valentine, it's

political seduction time. They are all going to sweet talk you. Look

at what a lovely future you could have with them, and, oh, their

competitors? Not your type at all. Those referendum party strategists

have their eye on you and Hayley Jarvis has been checking out what

they are going to do about it. We need to start building a big

community for this client... family advertising company takes

pride in its power to persuade. It is in their business of selling

products and ideas and says politics is no different.

If you can get a strong message out there that resonates with people,

if you can get that message out there, you can actually drive

somebody to go whitened actually vote. We did about four executions

and... That the agency has worked with

almost all of the political parties at some stage and in the case of

the success, it was the Conservative and Labour parties.

How easy was it to prevent a united front?

It was challenging to deal with two sets of people but they knew what

they wanted to do. The Independent's campaign will be

similar. So if politicians are in the

business of selling their brand, I will they reach out to us?

A winning campaign needs ideas and evidence and passion. Those are the

ingredients that any campaign seeks to bring to bear in its

conversation with the voters. The SNP believes positive

campaigning led them to victory last May. But party strategists

says he will take this approach again using the most up-to-date

marketing techniques along the way. Every campaign that we have run in

the recent past and have a confident campaign team and they

have used every single tool that one uses a modern campaigning and a

modern research to be as well informed as you possibly can be, to

consider high it is that you are communicating your message and to

deploy that message has effectively as you can.

Pro-independence bloc or Peter tends to communicate his message

face-to-face. He worked as a negotiator dealing with trade

disputes and he hopes to use his powers of persuasion at community

level. I hope to find people but share my

viewpoint and see if we can form a small nucleus to get something

moving in and my immediate village. But it has to be broadened to

people who have a different viewpoint and who may have a

diametrically different viewpoint and to people who have no foreign

view at all. It is judging how those undecided voters will be here

is that keeps these people busy. Positivity, apparently, is the key.

It is this middle ground that both the campaigns are going to be

fighting for. Negative campaigns tend to suppress the turnout of

those people in the middle. For the Unionists and the SNP, they have to

figure out how to get their message across in this positive ways.

Try telling that to make Ronnie's campaign team. Attacking the

opponents seems to be par for the course. But this negativity could

be stifling real debate. That is someone according -- according to

someone who has experience on and off the screen.

The Scottish should watch what we have done in this country. We have

destroyed the political process. Congress cannot even have a

conversation because it is so parties and. Everything is related

to the upcoming elections, whether it is the two year Congressional

elections. They're so better. This is because of all the negativity.

Nothing is accomplished here. Positive or negative, the parties

will be hoping their sales pitch will appeal to voters across the

spectrum in the run-up to the referendum. The real test of their

powers of persuasion is that they can stretch that far.

With me to shed some more light on the art of political persuasion is

the ex-Scottish Labour spin doctor, Simon Pia, the Communications

consultant to the SNP, and former special advisor to the First

Minister, Jennifer Dempsie. And the Professor of Political

Communication at Glasgow University, Sarah Oates.

If I were to ask you all very briefly, what makes the perfect

politician? Sarah. I would be in a far wealthier

position than I am today! The perfect politician is someone who

can communicate their message in an upbeat, positive way, respectful of

the voters's intelligence, a leading and not following,

proposing positive ideas for society while being realistic.

Obviously, I have described some on it does not exist!

What do you think? I agree with the positive part.

Some of his dynamic with the ability to change to react. Someone

that is very consultative and listens to ideas from wherever they

come from. And over all, some on his 100% dedicated and has a thick

skin. The perfect politician... I think

it is someone with the Big Idea, conviction, leadership, guts,

charisma, courage. And have you found all of those

things in any one person? No, I will not as good that! We are

constantly talking about a positive environment. And we also know that

you're out there checking the focus groups, the SNP are turning to

psychologists about voting patterns... How seriously do the

strategists take the kind of feedback they get and how far does

that actually changed where they might have been going?

Very seriously. We build a strategy based on the various things. The

obvious the use focus groups to look at opinion polls. We use our

Act of its system, which has all hour candidates information right

from the doorsteps. And obviously we take from media and what do

politicians are saying. There is a whole wide range of things. But

having that expertise to look at trends from people who are

psychologists and sociologists, it does help look at what the

direction of the country is going and what the mood is, particularly

with regards to the media. But doesn't that mean that we have

the politicians fog and public opinion than what they really hope

is that they will shape public opinion and advance to be it?

In democracy, it is an elaborate dance. It is between knowing what

the public wants and leading the public is something better.

President Barack Obama is the perfect type of that person. He

exploded onto the scene and did not follow politics as usual. Some of

his politics did not have a majority public support. But his

image of what the public should be and what the country should be was

revolutionary. Up the question in Scotland is, do we have a

politician who can also tap into that zeitgeist and at the same time,

create a new image of what it is to be Scottish, whether that is to be

Scottish within the UK or Scottish within an independent nation. That

is the challenge, I think, for the political parties in Scotland today.

How prescriptive can you actually be in high and individual interacts

with the public? It must come to some point for the do not look

pathetic. What has changed dramatically it is

that politics is less tribal and people say you rather than

identifying themselves as working class, they identified themselves

as Scottish primarily. This is to the advantage of the SNP.

So what is less tribal with the voters?

What all political parties are after is the swing voter, the

persuader balls. We try and kid on that we don't follow America, but

America has led the way on this. What Jennifer was alluding to -

focus groups, they have fallen on hard times. New Labour's success,

fill up gold went to America and study into how Clinton encoder that.

Gordon Brown is a big fan of this. I know there is people in the SNP

who reviewer Philip Gould and they have his began their of us. They

use that. It is how you tap into that. A big key thing about 2011...

Barack Obama had more money than became. People do not think about

that. The SNP had a lot more money than Labour and they spent seven

times more than us in the 2011 Election. They had the ability to

do market research and spend three times more on advertising. That is

a problem. You do pick up on these trends and what people want and

it's you know what buzzwords and messages to be Dowds there. They

have been tried with the focus groups and have people react in a

positive way, that is the key. All parties are negative in certain

ways. Alex Salmond got the sun to do his negative smear campaign

after ingratiating himself with Sir Rupert Murdoch. The Daily Record

was a long-term supporter of Labour, the only people in Scotland. If you

want media backing, the SNP got numerous papers to back them. It

was a sea-change in Scottish You are getting tribal here.

Jennifer wants to fight for her side, I want to fight for mine.

you buy an election? Out absolutely not. Money is not everything. It

would be the easy answer. The fact is money does not mean anything if

you do not have the right product and brand and in this case the

right party and team and ideas and vision. If the SNP did not have

that platform in the recent election, they would not have won.

They did attract extra funding from supporters. It enabled us to target

people and follow the trends and where the shift in opinion was.

When somebody says the word brand about politics and the right

message, we are focusing this, do you have any feeling that whatever

happened to conviction politics, with people speaking from a heart?

I do not have that visceral reaction. Probably because I am

American. I feel like an anthropologist who has been dropped

into a local tribe to study. As much as I would like to say the

sciences everything, it is not. It sets your playing field. After that,

the players go out. Alex Salmond has out batted everybody. Alex

Salmond has his talent. But my view is the emperor has no clothes. The

S&P had their message that they were for Scotland. -- SNP. They

wanted to avoid independence at all costs. I am a Labour through and

through. The point is there was a single coherent positive message. D

you accept Labour did not get that? It did not come across. Our message

was fighting for what really matters. I would argue the general

election in Westminster, people voted on policy is more. The

Holyrood election is more about the feeling. The S&P message was that

they are for Scotland. -- SNP. think absolutely and I said it at

the beginning, do not underestimate the intelligence of the voter.

Sometimes it is emotion. We are almost out of time. Women voters,

do they have a distinctive voice? It turns out women are more

conservatively voting. It is a fight to get women. They vote with

their heads, not their Hearts, to buy into independence.

challenge will be for independence, and I think they can do that

because they have detailed messages to get across. We are giving the

women the last word, Simon. barged in as usual. People to vote

on emotions and feeling rather than reason, which his wife those pro-

union have to make... Simon, I am sorry, it looks like I am pulling

rank. But we are out of time. Thank you. Now time for the lunchtime

news. Good afternoon. The Scottish and UK governments say

they are hoping to quickly resolve outstanding wrangles over plans for

the independence referendum. First Minister Alex Salmond is due to

meet with Scottish Secretary Michael Moore tomorrow in Edinburgh.

While they have been disagreeing over arrangements to run the ballot,

proposed by the SNP for autumn 2014, both sides say there is now more

common ground. There is no broad consensus about the timing of the

referendum. We look forward to hearing views about the questions

that might be in that referendum. do not expect tomorrow will be the

final discussion on this issue, but it is the start of a positive

process, where we can get the details sorted out.

Bankers from the Royal Bank of Scotland have been arrested as part

of an investigation into alleged personal tax fraud. The arrests

include four current staff and one former employee from the Edinburgh-

headquartered bank. They were arrested at their homes across

London and the Home Counties on Wednesday.

Scotland's rugby squad are in Cardiff, taking on Wales at the

Millennium Stadium this afternoon in their Six Nations Match. They're

looking to bounce back from their opening day defeat last Saturday at

Murrayfield, where they lost to England by 13-6. Head coach Andy

Robinson says he believes Scotland can upset the odds and is urging

his players to maintain their composure. There is live coverage

composure. There is live coverage on this channel this afternoon. And

now the weather. Another cloudy day across the

country. It was misty first think. There will be mist around today.

Temperatures are not too bad. Colder in the south-east. Overnight,

there will be a change with the weather front pushing in that will

bring colder air and a strengthening north-westerly breeze.

It will be windier tomorrow. I will be back with more news this

In a moment we will discuss some of the big events coming up. But first

the Week in 60 seconds. Dundee United have come to Glasgow

and beaten Rangers! BBC Scotland has uncovered documents that

suggest that Rangers' owner may have lied under oath. John Swinney

secured backing for his Budget. have listened to views from across

the chamber. We have acted decisively. And islanders went to

parliament to protest about fishing grounds being decimated. There was

high drama at the biggest council in Glasgow when dissenting Labour

councillors threatened the approval of the Budget. I am thrilled and

delighted. And the view from Trump Towers. Donald Trump accuses the

Scottish government of being hell- bent on destroying Scotland's Coast

line with wind turbines. I enjoyed in the studio by two

prodigious political bloggers. Kate Higgens, otherwise known as A Burdz

Eye View, and Ian Smart, who has his own website and contributes to

Labour Hame. Let's talk about the referendum mechanics. How much

longer can it go on? Please, not much longer. The sooner we get out

of the political parlour and into the public arena, the better.

People will just switch off and stop engaging and stick their

fingers in their ears and hope it will go away and I think

politicians have to be wary of getting to that point. It is a

positive sign meetings are going ahead, but let's get the mechanics

sorted out sooner rather than later. I agree entirely. This is of

interest to political bloggers, but I'm not sure about the general

public. Should there be a news blackout until we know the

question?! He will oversee it, no more until we know what is

proposed? Presumably its horse- trading on screen? Presumably they

are flying kites. Alex Salmond will say things have not been finally

agreed because they will be finally agreed with the Prime Minister

later in the week. He will say a lot of progress has been made and

they will reach a consensus in due course. What are we missing when we

focus on this? We are very much missed in what independence might

do or what staying in the union might achieve. At the moment we are

at this stage of sorting out the mechanics and also there is

shouting going on, and with both side shouting and not making a lot

of sense. I made a decision this week not to talk about the

referendum for a week because it is boring and there is a lot of wrong

information out there. We need to get to the issues that people want

to know about to make an informed choice. If we are getting into

statistics, how informed? We have the same evidence and conflicting

interpretations. It will be tricky. One of the things that has to be

clarified is what is meant by independence. In the 1920s, when

the SNP was formed, nobody is suggesting that is the model of

independence. It is not clear what the alternative is. It was

suggested today it appears we will keep the Queen and Stirling.

need clarity. Do you think no party will come up with anything that

involves hard choices? Is that the chilling effect? Yes. I think it is.

It would be a missed opportunity. This is a once in a generation

opportunity. Party such as the Lib Dems and David Mundell was

suggesting today, let's have a yes or know, and then we will discuss

powers. Forget that approach. People do not want to spend ten

years talking about the constitution. Let's have a proper

informed debate about the issues. It is not fair to the Scottish

people, otherwise, to neutralise the issues to obtain party

advantage. This is the decision of the Scottish people and nobody else.

Glasgow, City Council, do you want to go about that? It is a private

beef. There is an element that the focus has been on people defecting

and maybe the real embarrassment for the Labour Party is how they

were Labour councillors in the first place. They are suggesting

they are going to stand as independents. The used to be said

in Glasgow you could put to Rangers have told a donkey and it would be

elected. He is a lawyer and he is heading down a road that is making

me uncomfortable. I am worried about defamation! I have not

mention names. -- mentioned. The persuasion peace. We know they are

looking at ways of gauging what we think and how to appeal. What about

the idea of different sections of society, women are in a specific

section, there is the youth vote. Some suggest if you are older and

affluent, you are less likely to vote SNP. What will may have to do

to challenge attitudes? We had a chat about this on the train coming

over. We decided we might not impart commercially sensitive

information. We have more elections between us than we care to remember.

What was really interesting in the discussion earlier work two words

missing, trust and respect. People vote for who they believe can make

a difference. There is a danger of applying too much science and

strategy. It is important. You need to have an approach that works and

appeals. But you have to have big ideas. Trust and respect are vital.

People will not vote for politicians they like the best

necessarily, but for those they feel they can trust to do the job.

We saw back in 2011 election. other thing, everybody says you

have to be positive. That is the official line. The reason negative

campaigning is used is because it works. It is not realistic to think

there would not be negative campaigning come the independence

referendum. If one side is relying heavily on negative campaigning,

well, it is interesting, there are advantages and disadvantages in

every argument. It would be condescending to focus on the

positive? Absolutely. It is how you do that. The SNP are clever in how

they put negativity into their positive message. They use

marketing tools and engagement tools to ensure the trip of

negativity is happening in a subtle way. I think they have issues,

particularly with women, but they are alert to those. They have time