12/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


12/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including cabinet minister Eric Pickles on the government's NHS bill.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:33.:00:36.

The Prime Minister insists this morning he is at one with Health

:00:36.:00:40.

Secretary Andrew Lansley over the troubled NHS reform. But is the

:00:40.:00:45.

rest of the Cabinet? Eric Pickles tells us in our Top Story.

:00:45.:00:49.

As Greece suffers and Syria bleeds, where does Labour stand on the big

:00:49.:00:52.

foreign policy issues of the day? Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas

:00:52.:00:56.

Alexander joins us for the Sunday Interview.

:00:56.:00:59.

And with the Murdoch empire reeling from yet more high-profile arrests

:00:59.:01:01.

at the Sun, we're joined by the media tycoon's chief tormentor,

:01:01.:01:11.
:01:11.:01:18.

Labour MP Tom Watson. On Sunday politics in Scotland, or

:01:18.:01:21.

we will be speaking to the Scott and others about those referendum

:01:21.:01:25.

negotiations tomorrow. And with St Valentine's Day coming up, what are

:01:25.:01:28.

the political chat up lines to sweep you off your feet and what

:01:29.:01:38.
:01:39.:01:39.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1524 seconds

:01:39.:27:03.

has to running in the opposite And Fri did not claim that. That is

:27:03.:27:07.

slightly wrong. He would have known that because it was in the public

:27:07.:27:14.

domain. Parliament give its... For most people, it was not in the

:27:14.:27:18.

public domain. I doubt if anybody would do that now, given the

:27:18.:27:22.

climate of fear. I am certain they would do that now.

:27:22.:27:26.

If I was fiddling my expenses, every tabloid newspaper would be on

:27:26.:27:29.

it like a shot. To be all right to pay a Commons

:27:29.:27:33.

official to do so? There is a public interest in all

:27:33.:27:38.

of these. There is a public interest defence for hacking a

:27:38.:27:42.

phone due to the level of seriousness.

:27:42.:27:47.

Would you like to see Rupert Murdoch dispose of his remaining

:27:47.:27:51.

newspaper and depart these shores? I would like Rupert Murdoch to

:27:52.:27:55.

stand up for clean investigated journalism and I would like him to

:27:55.:27:59.

clean up what went on in News International.

:27:59.:28:04.

The seed and wanted a sell-out? I think that is down to new score?

:28:04.:28:14.

I just want him to take responsibility. He is flying into

:28:14.:28:20.

London this week and has to take his share of responsibility. If

:28:20.:28:24.

people are charged as a result, is he a fit and proper person to hold

:28:24.:28:34.
:28:34.:28:34.

the sky licence. I do not think he is. Off, have to

:28:34.:28:39.

apply a test to him, but over many years, wrong doing took place. He

:28:39.:28:43.

is the boss of the company and he is responsible for corporate

:28:43.:28:46.

governance. He is not a fit and proper person to run a television

:28:46.:28:49.

company under the rules as they stand.

:28:49.:28:53.

When it comes to paying the police or other public officials, this is

:28:53.:28:57.

not confined to Rupert Murdoch's papers and this practice has been

:28:57.:29:02.

prevalent across Fleet Street. A everyone tells me that. The only

:29:02.:29:06.

evidence that I have seen personally is what went on at News

:29:06.:29:10.

International. Clearly, we have to judge an inquiry that can do that.

:29:10.:29:18.

How did we get here? It is Rupert Murdoch who appoints these big

:29:18.:29:22.

institutions of national newspapers of repute. He is responsible for

:29:22.:29:26.

the personnel but allow these things to happen. He must take

:29:26.:29:30.

responsibility for it. So you do not rely did could be

:29:30.:29:35.

happening elsewhere? I do not know.

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You're watching the Sunday politics. Good afternoon and welcome to

:29:42.:29:46.

Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme...

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The Scotland Office Minister David Mundell is with us ahead of the

:29:49.:29:53.

referendum negotiations tomorrow. How much longer can the talking go

:29:53.:29:57.

What are the chances of getting a job these days if you're young and

:29:57.:30:00.

Scottish? Are the politicians' youth employment strategies

:30:00.:30:03.

working? Why new legislation to end

:30:03.:30:06.

homelessness by 2012 could make it more difficult for people to find a

:30:06.:30:16.
:30:16.:30:17.

permanent home. We are none prioritised due to being single and

:30:17.:30:22.

homeless. We have to grin and bear it. The lack of housing is unreal.

:30:22.:30:29.

And from Bartlett's Whitehouse to Salmond's Scotland. The West Wing's

:30:29.:30:32.

Toby Zeigler tells us what our politicians can learn from the US

:30:32.:30:42.
:30:42.:30:45.

when it comes to persuading voters. If the Scottish politicians were to

:30:45.:30:50.

watch the American campaigns right now, at hopefully at opposing sides

:30:50.:30:58.

will learn it is not necessary to get so negative. It is ultimately a

:30:58.:31:03.

destructive factor. They are warming up in their

:31:03.:31:05.

respective corners and round-one of the referendum negotiations get

:31:05.:31:08.

underway tomorrow when the the First Minister meets the Scottish

:31:08.:31:10.

Secretary Michael Moore in Edinburgh. There could be a round

:31:10.:31:13.

two later in the week with the Prime Minister. The main sticking

:31:13.:31:17.

points seem to be: one or two questions, and should 16 and 17-

:31:17.:31:20.

year-olds get to vote. We spoke to Nicola Sturgeon earlier and she

:31:20.:31:27.

told us that tomorrow's meeting is a welcome step forward. I think

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there is no broad consensus in Scotland about the timing of the

:31:32.:31:36.

referendum. We look forward to hearing views about the questions

:31:36.:31:41.

that might be in that referendum and on issues such as to 16-year-

:31:41.:31:45.

old and 17 year olds have the right to vote. The sooner we can get

:31:45.:31:51.

beyond the issues of protest -- process and into the issue of

:31:51.:31:54.

substance, which is why Scotland would be better off with an

:31:54.:32:04.
:32:04.:32:06.

independent country, the better. We asked for an SNP Minister to

:32:06.:32:09.

speak to us, but nobody was available.

:32:09.:32:12.

In our Millbank studio, we have the Conservative MP and Scotland Office

:32:12.:32:19.

Minister, David Mundell. Will the Prime Minister the up later this

:32:19.:32:24.

week to talk to the First Minister? The Prime Minister said he might be

:32:24.:32:28.

in Scotland soon because he is the Prime Minister of the whole United

:32:28.:32:32.

Kingdom and does come to Scotland on a regular basis. If he is here,

:32:32.:32:37.

he will be speaking with the First Minister. But the discussions in

:32:37.:32:41.

relation to the referendum will essentially be conducted by the

:32:41.:32:44.

Scotland Office with the Scottish Government. That process is

:32:44.:32:49.

starting tomorrow. I do not expect that tomorrow will be the final and

:32:49.:32:54.

conclusive discussion on this issue, but it is the start of a positive

:32:54.:32:58.

process where we can get the detail of the referendum sorted out and

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for once, I actually agree with Nicola Sturgeon. We need to get on

:33:02.:33:07.

to the substance of why a Scotland is better off in Britain.

:33:07.:33:13.

How much longer could this drag on for?

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I hope that it can be concluded as quickly as possible. I think we

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have made great progress in the last few weeks, because at the

:33:23.:33:27.

start of the year, we knew nothing about the SNP Government's

:33:27.:33:32.

proposals for the referendum. We have a deeper, detailed suggestion.

:33:32.:33:36.

The major step forward, an acknowledgement that there has to

:33:36.:33:40.

be a legal basis for the referendum and that can only be with the

:33:40.:33:45.

involvement of the UK Government. Now it, we need to get the details

:33:45.:33:49.

sorted out and tomorrow's discussions will move that forward.

:33:49.:33:52.

What are the lines in the sand for you?

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We have always said that we want the referendum to be de Gaulle,

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fair and decisive. There is an acceptance that to be legal, it

:34:01.:34:06.

must involve the UK Government parts. Fairness clearly involves

:34:07.:34:10.

the Electoral Commission and not necessarily changing the rules

:34:10.:34:14.

specifically for this referendum. That will be one of the issues

:34:14.:34:18.

around the franchise. It is an entirely separate debate as to

:34:18.:34:21.

whether 16 year-olds and 17 year- olds should have the vote or

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whether they should be given a vote for this specific issue.

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There is a line-up in the sand for 16 holes and 17 year-olds are

:34:32.:34:36.

voting. You want one question only, is that a deal breaker?

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I will not conduct the discussions on this programme. It is wrong to

:34:41.:34:46.

suggest that individual issues are deal breakers. It is clear that

:34:46.:34:50.

everyone, it would appear, apart from the First Minister, want a

:34:50.:34:55.

single question. That is the position of the coalition parties

:34:55.:34:59.

in the UK level. The First Minister says he wants a

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single question as well, but he wants to respond to said that

:35:04.:35:08.

Scotland who may want another question on the ballot paper or how

:35:08.:35:12.

it is defined. If there is a devilish and Max question on the

:35:12.:35:18.

ballot paper, will the Government in Westminster refused to recognise

:35:18.:35:23.

the legitimacy of the referendum? To a simple yes or no would answer

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The simple question for the people of Scotland should be, do they want

:35:28.:35:32.

to remain part of Britain or not? We need to have that question

:35:33.:35:37.

answered and then we can move on to discuss the future of the devolved

:35:37.:35:40.

arrangements if people opt to stay within Britain.

:35:40.:35:44.

That is an interesting point. Michael Moore himself has said in

:35:44.:35:47.

an interview in The Times this week that the Scotland Bill is only the

:35:47.:35:52.

beginning of the powers that will come to Scotland. He said there

:35:52.:35:55.

could be higher so like further taxation and that sort of things.

:35:55.:36:02.

Do you agree with him? If we say no at this stage, or will the Scotland

:36:02.:36:06.

Bill be just the beginning? The Scotland Bill is a very

:36:07.:36:12.

important series of powers that is being transferred to Scotland. The

:36:12.:36:17.

most significant financial powers since the act of Union in 17 07. It

:36:17.:36:22.

is a significant development in devolution. In relation to post

:36:22.:36:26.

referendum discussions on devolution, it is quite clear that

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different parties will go for it with different proposals.

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A but what is your party's proposal on this? What is the Conservative

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Party's attitude of more power is coming to Scotland if there is a no

:36:39.:36:45.

in the referendum to independence? We were going to the 2015 general

:36:45.:36:47.

election with a set of proposals for Scotland.

:36:47.:36:54.

But what are they? Ruth Davidson has said this far and no further.

:36:54.:36:58.

What Ruth Davidson has said is that she is setting up a review of all

:36:58.:37:02.

the policies of the Scottish Conservative Party, but nothing is

:37:02.:37:07.

off the table. What is clear is that we will have proposals going

:37:07.:37:11.

into the 2015 election in relation to how we see the devolution

:37:11.:37:15.

settlement moving forward. At this time, or what we see is the

:37:15.:37:19.

Scotland Bill being enacted Oakley within the next few months, which

:37:19.:37:23.

will bring to Scotland than most significant financial powers since

:37:23.:37:29.

the act of Union and other changes which command widespread support in

:37:29.:37:32.

Scotland, such as the regulation of their guns.

:37:32.:37:37.

In the not answering that question, in the not answering -- having a

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clear policy at this stage than we are so far into the bit, do you

:37:41.:37:45.

understand why the electorate might think that you're acting in bad

:37:45.:37:49.

faith? You can tell us what you plan to do. It is a line in the

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sand or it is not. If it is not, what other parts might you

:37:53.:37:57.

consider? The Liberal Democrats have got a consultation under way

:37:57.:38:02.

at the moment. Bruce Davidson has said no, there will be nothing.

:38:02.:38:06.

Mixed messages are coming out all the time. If you are acting in good

:38:06.:38:12.

faith, argue consulting on further powers and what will they be?

:38:12.:38:15.

That is a total misrepresentation of my position. You're not

:38:15.:38:20.

listening to what I have said or what Ruth Davidson has said. Ruth

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has made it clear that she will review all the Conservative

:38:24.:38:28.

policies and ahead of the 2015 election, we will set out their

:38:28.:38:33.

policies. What powers could there be?

:38:33.:38:36.

What is fundamentally important is that we settle the issue of whether

:38:36.:38:41.

Scotland remains in the United Kingdom or not.

:38:41.:38:46.

What powers would you consider? Sorry to interrupt. What more

:38:46.:38:51.

powers would you consider? What I want to understand is

:38:51.:38:55.

whether people in Scotland want to stay within the United Kingdom.

:38:55.:38:59.

If they do and they want more powers, would you grant devolution

:38:59.:39:04.

Max? If they want to stay but they want more powers, high when you

:39:04.:39:08.

respond to that? The political community in Scotland

:39:08.:39:14.

has always responded to calls for more powers, but that has to be a

:39:14.:39:20.

defined package of powers. At the moment, devolution Max is undefined.

:39:20.:39:25.

What grips like reform Scotland think it is and what the Scottish

:39:26.:39:28.

Trades Union Congress think it are completely different things. What

:39:28.:39:33.

we need to do at the moment is to settle the issue once and for all.

:39:33.:39:37.

Is Scotland in the United Kingdom or not, and then move forward if

:39:37.:39:42.

the answer is yes with the devolution settlement.

:39:42.:39:48.

In that the terms of the question come all was the SNP Government

:39:48.:39:52.

have in their consultation, the question is, do you agree Scotland

:39:52.:39:57.

should be an independent country? Ruth Davidson has said she thinks

:39:57.:40:02.

this is a fair and decisive legal question. Do you agree with that?

:40:02.:40:06.

What she has said is that there is tremendous progress that we are

:40:06.:40:11.

moving forward to have a proposal... As a matter of fact in Holyrood, of

:40:11.:40:16.

what Ruth Davidson said was that -- it was a fair and decisive leader

:40:16.:40:20.

questioned. Do you agree with her? Ruth has said that it is a matter

:40:20.:40:25.

of progress that we move forward and have the simple question of the

:40:25.:40:29.

sort that ask people whether or not they want to say in the United

:40:29.:40:31.

Kingdom. Do you agree with that specific

:40:31.:40:36.

wording? I hope there is agreement from the

:40:36.:40:41.

SNP Government and the subject will be the Electoral Commission. That

:40:41.:40:46.

is very important that that happens as part of this process. We need to

:40:47.:40:51.

get it clear that we're having a fair question. That is the basis on

:40:51.:40:56.

which I hope we will proceed. Thank you.

:40:56.:40:58.

The latest figures show 105,000 young people in Scotland are

:40:58.:41:02.

looking for work at the moment. Politicians of all parties launch

:41:02.:41:05.

strategies, put forward proposals and hold summits to try to tackle

:41:05.:41:10.

this problem. So what are they delivering on the ground? Here's

:41:10.:41:18.

Laura Bicker. They are calling it a lost

:41:18.:41:22.

generation. Thousands of 18 to 24 year-olds are searching for a

:41:22.:41:26.

chance, or even a hope of some employment.

:41:26.:41:31.

There are no jobs out there. I want to be in a trade, but tradesmen are

:41:31.:41:35.

not taking on apprenticeships. You try so hard on the application and

:41:35.:41:40.

do not get a return from them. The 18-year-old Sarah Thorne is

:41:40.:41:44.

part of St League, a project to give her sports coaching skills.

:41:44.:41:47.

She has been unemployed for two years.

:41:47.:41:52.

I have done some courses to help me get ready for it, but never gained

:41:52.:41:56.

anything out of them. It was 12 weeks help and then struck back to

:41:56.:41:59.

do your own thing again and go back up and signed that book every two

:41:59.:42:05.

weeks and you're on your own. It was horrible.

:42:05.:42:11.

22-year-old Daniel Terry has always dreamed of being a sports coach.

:42:11.:42:13.

Politicians could organise more programmes for people to get

:42:13.:42:18.

qualifications so employers cannot say you were not qualified. They

:42:18.:42:23.

should organise more programmes to get people into work in groups so

:42:23.:42:27.

they could get their confidence up. That is a big issue that says a

:42:27.:42:29.

month's people that do not have jobs.

:42:29.:42:34.

This is where some of those young people hope to find work. This is

:42:34.:42:37.

the national indoor sports arena. It has been built for the

:42:37.:42:42.

Commonwealth Games in 2014. There are thought to be around 55 job

:42:42.:42:47.

opportunities here, but the Scottish Government says there are

:42:47.:42:50.

105,000 under 25 year-olds looking for work. They say they are

:42:50.:42:52.

creating apprenticeships working with employers to create

:42:52.:42:56.

opportunities, but the young people we have spoken to say they need

:42:56.:43:05.

The youth employment minister Angela Constance was not able to

:43:05.:43:12.

come on, instead we have Marco Biagi of the SNP who sits on a

:43:12.:43:14.

Education and Culture Committee. And with me in the studio, Sarah

:43:14.:43:20.

Thorne, who you saw in the film. Also Jo Swinson the Liberal-

:43:20.:43:29.

Democrat MP, and Kezia Dugdale, Scottish Labour's youth employment

:43:29.:43:36.

spokesman. What is your strategy for youth employment? The powers of

:43:36.:43:43.

the Scottish Parliament are used. You see 25,000 apprenticeships

:43:43.:43:50.

every year. That is 60% up on 2007. The important thing about

:43:50.:43:54.

apprenticeships in Scotland rather than England, is that they happen

:43:54.:44:04.
:44:04.:44:04.

in the workplace. You have 20,000 training opportunities every year.

:44:04.:44:08.

In Scotland we have a minister for youth employment co-ordinating

:44:08.:44:16.

activity. Are you doing all you can? We are doing all we can with

:44:16.:44:21.

the powers we have. Our main lever to tackle youth unemployment is

:44:21.:44:26.

through education and training, but that does not stop us being

:44:26.:44:35.

creative in other areas, such as securing money and using public

:44:35.:44:42.

sector power. Is that good enough? I do not think

:44:42.:44:50.

so. How could you do it differently? We would not cut

:44:50.:44:57.

college budgets. The SNP have cut. 1.5 billion a year they are putting

:44:57.:45:02.

into post 16 education when budgets are restricted. Is it about money

:45:02.:45:11.

or the strategy? It is about all of theirs. We want to see them using

:45:11.:45:17.

the buying power of government more effectively. The big debate about

:45:17.:45:21.

the Forth Road Bridge. How many jobs will it create for young

:45:21.:45:26.

people? There are questions for the SNP. Also hospitals and schools

:45:26.:45:30.

they plan to build. The is probably not enough co-

:45:31.:45:38.

ordination some voluntary groups say. One had 15 people funding it.

:45:39.:45:43.

Is this a subject where party politics could be set aside?

:45:43.:45:50.

think so. There are welcome signs that is starting to happen. From

:45:50.:45:55.

the UK Government perspective we have the youth contract and �1

:45:55.:45:59.

billion to invest in wage subsidies to create jobs and work experience.

:45:59.:46:04.

There is often a lack of qualifications that can make it

:46:04.:46:09.

difficult for young people to secured jobs. We are making sure we

:46:09.:46:13.

work alongside the Scottish government to make sure initiatives

:46:13.:46:17.

to Oftel. It could always be done better.

:46:17.:46:22.

Sarah Thorne, you were in a project you found useful. What skills did

:46:22.:46:28.

you learn? The first one I attended was a

:46:28.:46:35.

trust that helped me build skills and gain confidence. The next step

:46:35.:46:41.

was M I technologists who put me on a work placement that I did not

:46:41.:46:46.

enjoy. I was not confident. I was working crazy hours the same as

:46:46.:46:56.
:46:56.:46:57.

anyone else and I was paid �1 per hour. It is not means tested.

:46:57.:47:01.

would be the biggest thing politicians could do that would

:47:01.:47:10.

mean people like you would feel they had a chance of a job? I want

:47:10.:47:17.

on a course that is a charity. I walked in, no confidence, three

:47:17.:47:27.

weeks ago, and I am now on national television speaking up. Just to

:47:27.:47:32.

back and help people get into work. I will leave with six

:47:32.:47:37.

qualifications. The downside is that it is not what I want to do,

:47:37.:47:42.

it is care. Trying to get into a course when I don't have the

:47:42.:47:48.

qualifications is awful. Three years I have wanted to do care.

:47:48.:47:52.

Is there a point that could work is done through the voluntary sector.

:47:53.:47:58.

Young people go on courses and have a proven track record and then beat

:47:58.:48:04.

funding is withdrawn. What continuity can you guarantee?

:48:04.:48:08.

of the funding opportunities are decided at local government. In my

:48:08.:48:13.

constituency in Edinburgh, there is an increase in funding available

:48:13.:48:21.

for voluntary sector projects. That was passed this week. There is

:48:21.:48:26.

recognition these projects are valuable and need to be funded. I

:48:26.:48:30.

have met young people who have been through the project, such as the

:48:30.:48:35.

Canon Gate Youth Project, who talk about the boost to confidence that

:48:35.:48:41.

provides and how it helps them to find work. The more doom-laden

:48:41.:48:47.

stories about how the situation is bleak, the more hope can be knocked

:48:47.:48:51.

down. It is important to have the message that there is a chance for

:48:51.:48:55.

young people and for young people with reasonable levels of

:48:55.:49:00.

qualifications, unemployment is on the way down.

:49:00.:49:05.

When we look at the effect of programmes at the moment, an

:49:05.:49:09.

apprenticeship used to be done for years, rigorous training. The

:49:09.:49:15.

current programme focuses on 16-19 year olds. And after that you have

:49:15.:49:20.

a mass of young people who cannot get work. What is the answer to

:49:20.:49:26.

longer term unemployment? There is an opportunity for the Government

:49:26.:49:31.

to address structural issues in the system and tackle that in the jobs

:49:31.:49:36.

market. That is about investing in young people, getting them involved

:49:36.:49:40.

in things, giving them sustained experience of work and supporting

:49:40.:49:47.

them. Where does the money come from? It is more a matter of what

:49:47.:49:51.

you do if you do not invest now because the cost to the future is

:49:51.:49:57.

greater than anything invested now. Do you have any sense that possibly

:49:57.:50:02.

we are not getting the education balance right? Business often say

:50:02.:50:06.

there is emphasis on encouraging people into college courses and we

:50:06.:50:12.

should be stepping back and looking at what might be more relevant.

:50:12.:50:17.

think you get that complaint from businesses sometimes that young

:50:17.:50:20.

people do not have the qualifications and experience they

:50:20.:50:24.

require. That is why the youth contract is important. Nick Clegg

:50:24.:50:30.

has pushed for that investment to enable people to have experience.

:50:30.:50:35.

That also gives employers to see the talent out there. Sarah Thorne

:50:35.:50:42.

is an excellent example. It gives young people the experience of what

:50:42.:50:48.

it is like to be in the workplace. What it is like rather than having

:50:48.:50:52.

the academic experience early. I'm glad to see that under pressure

:50:52.:50:57.

from the Liberal-Democrats, cuts to colleges in the Scottish Parliament

:50:57.:51:02.

were reduced this week. It is important places are available for

:51:02.:51:04.

people who want to get a qualification so they can get into

:51:05.:51:10.

the jobs market. Do you have any concern... You have

:51:10.:51:14.

worked hard. You have been successful at what you have tried

:51:14.:51:19.

to do, but have you concerns that you will put effort into a college

:51:19.:51:24.

place, get there and get your qualification... And not have a job

:51:24.:51:33.

by the end? I do. I dropped out of school. I wanted to prove it was

:51:33.:51:41.

not because I was not clever enough. -- my brother dropped out. He

:51:41.:51:45.

worked hard for five years to become a trades man, timing, and

:51:45.:51:50.

now there is no work for him. your friends, how disheartening is

:51:50.:51:54.

it that you do the best you can and give it everything, and there is

:51:54.:52:01.

nothing? It knocks you down a level. What is the point of building

:52:01.:52:09.

confidence, for it not to be recognised? It is degrading. Also,

:52:09.:52:14.

you get a job diary at the JobCentre. You have to fill that in.

:52:14.:52:19.

You worry your benefits will be sanctioned. We will not go down

:52:19.:52:29.
:52:29.:52:29.

that road just now! That is a point, nobody sitting around here,

:52:29.:52:36.

whatever political so -- political persuasion, that somebody can give

:52:36.:52:43.

so much and then been knocked down. I am asking about the priorities

:52:43.:52:48.

you are choosing. Is it right to focus on the apprenticeships and

:52:48.:52:53.

16-19 year olds, when older graduates are also struggling for

:52:53.:52:58.

jobs, and is it right not enough money is going into the early

:52:58.:53:03.

years? Why are you choosing the priorities you are choosing?

:53:03.:53:09.

The 16-90-year-old age group is important. When people leave

:53:09.:53:15.

compulsory education they have to ensure they have an opportunity.

:53:15.:53:20.

The opportunities for all programme will be a landmark, offering to

:53:20.:53:25.

everybody in that age bracket he does not have employment, education

:53:25.:53:28.

or a training place. If you can stop people being unemployed at

:53:29.:53:34.

that stage, you can have serious benefits further run. I would not

:53:34.:53:40.

say there is no emphasis on early years. Spend has been a hallmark of

:53:40.:53:44.

the Budget in that area. Many apprenticeships do include those up

:53:44.:53:50.

to 24. There is a commitment across the board. There is a recognition

:53:50.:53:53.

that full young people, in good economic times even, it is hard for

:53:54.:54:00.

them to find work. Is that the bottom line, in hard times, young

:54:00.:54:06.

people will suffer more? Yes. He talks about the 16-19 year olds the

:54:06.:54:10.

gender. They have a bold step to give every young person an

:54:10.:54:14.

opportunity, but it must be meaningful. In my experience, it

:54:14.:54:20.

can be as little as two hours a week. People just want a job and a

:54:20.:54:30.
:54:30.:54:31.

chance. We have to leave this here. Thank you for that.

:54:31.:54:36.

Before you go, you have a statement saying the SNP should drop plans to

:54:36.:54:40.

allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote in the referendum. We understand

:54:40.:54:45.

you are meeting the campaign group promoting votes for this age group.

:54:45.:54:50.

I am a supporter of votes at 16 and I will continue to campaign. I do

:54:50.:54:56.

not think with the voting franchise we should pick and choose. The SNP

:54:56.:55:06.
:55:06.:55:08.

plans are incoherent. They are not planning a new canvas. It would be

:55:08.:55:14.

votes for 16 and three-quarter year olds. I do not supported for one-

:55:14.:55:18.

off referendums. I think all those who support votes at 60 should work

:55:18.:55:25.

together to get it changed for good and for all elections.

:55:25.:55:28.

Housing charities warned that unless more affordable

:55:28.:55:31.

accommodation is made available, a growing number of people will be

:55:31.:55:39.

stuck in temporary homes. We report on why new legislation to end

:55:39.:55:43.

homelessness by 2012 could make it more difficult for those in need to

:55:43.:55:47.

find a permanent home. Andrew is homeless and living in a

:55:47.:55:57.

hostel -- run by a Christian housing trust. They concentrate on

:55:57.:56:04.

finding homes for people who need help the most. You are not

:56:04.:56:07.

prioritised being single and homeless. You have to grin and bear

:56:07.:56:13.

it at the moment. It is unreal. wants to get back to work. He says

:56:13.:56:17.

finding affordable private sector accommodation is a challenge.

:56:17.:56:22.

was a job that was ideal, unfortunately, the accommodation

:56:22.:56:28.

around that area, where I was wanting to be, was on affordable.

:56:28.:56:36.

This man is also home this. He has lived in his car in the Borders.

:56:36.:56:40.

When you have been sleeping in your car, you feel nobody will give you

:56:40.:56:49.

a chance. Hello. He is now moving into short-term housing while

:56:49.:56:56.

borders Council find him a home. Shelter Scotland say the council is

:56:56.:57:05.

one of nine local forages who have met the 2012 commitment. This is

:57:05.:57:11.

the biggest challenge we have had in 20 years. It has required a root

:57:11.:57:16.

and branch approach. We have changed policy comprehensively. We

:57:16.:57:21.

had to change the ethos in the service to put more focused on

:57:21.:57:24.

prevention of homelessness and sustaining 10 ounces. The bottom

:57:24.:57:30.

line is that we will continue to need more affordable housing --

:57:30.:57:35.

tenancies. With a lack of affordable housing and no sanctions

:57:35.:57:40.

for councils to do not deliver, can any commitment be fulfilled? It is

:57:40.:57:44.

important to have a goal like the Scottish howff of ending

:57:44.:57:51.

homelessness in 2012. -- they have. You still have to have resources

:57:51.:57:57.

there. You have to have the support system in place to enable people to

:57:57.:58:02.

sustain housing. It is not enough to have the statements, although

:58:02.:58:09.

they are important. By the end of 2012, local-authority is will have

:58:09.:58:12.

to class every unintentionally homeless person as a priority and

:58:12.:58:18.

give them access to a home. The challenge will be to make sure

:58:18.:58:25.

people like Andrew are not stuck in With me here is the Editor of The

:58:25.:58:28.

Big Issue, Paul McNamee. And in our Edinburgh studio, we have Graham

:58:28.:58:34.

Brown, the director of the homeless charity Shelter Scotland.

:58:34.:58:39.

What do you think this 2012 legal commitment is actually worth?

:58:39.:58:44.

I think it is a great idea. Anything that grabs this and tries

:58:44.:58:49.

to do something about the ongoing issues of homelessness is fantastic.

:58:49.:58:53.

But something that Dennis touched on gets much closer to the problem.

:58:53.:58:57.

It is not really enough just to build houses. You will not end

:58:57.:59:05.

homelessness like that. Kit sounds contradictory, but that is at the

:59:05.:59:09.

base here. There is something much broader and much more societal. You

:59:09.:59:16.

cannot eradicate polio, and you have to get right down to the base.

:59:16.:59:19.

Why it sort of structures are needed? You say it seems obvious

:59:19.:59:22.

that you can put someone in a house, but what is the bigger picture

:59:22.:59:29.

around that? With The Big Issue, we offer people

:59:29.:59:34.

a way to get self-respect and make a living. That is a good start. But

:59:34.:59:38.

you have to remember that these people, a lot of these people, have

:59:38.:59:42.

incredibly different, fractured lives. They might not know how to

:59:42.:59:47.

look after themselves properly or pay bills or make sure they are

:59:47.:59:52.

connected to the mains. There is an awful lot of things that keeps

:59:52.:59:57.

people in this situation. In the previous item, people were talking

:59:57.:00:02.

about youth unemployment. If the word hope came up a couple of times.

:00:03.:00:07.

The need hope and ambition and some kind of future. You need to work

:00:07.:00:10.

out why that is not there for people who are falling through the

:00:10.:00:15.

cracks and what we can do to address that.

:00:15.:00:18.

Given what Paul has just said, are the much wider issues for a

:00:18.:00:22.

particular section of people who are repeatedly homeless? It in the

:00:22.:00:28.

general picture, do you think we have enough houses to meet the

:00:28.:00:33.

current needs or planning enough for the future?

:00:33.:00:39.

Clearly not. The 2012 commitment is a staging post. It is a process. It

:00:39.:00:44.

is not the end in itself. There needs to be much more done and we

:00:44.:00:48.

are all agreed about that. We welcome the Scottish Government's

:00:48.:00:53.

commitment to bring empty homes back into use. They have been

:00:53.:00:58.

funding programmes to do that, which makes a lot of sense. We also

:00:58.:01:02.

welcome the additional �80 million they have invested this week in an

:01:02.:01:07.

-- into affordable housing. It is quite clear that at the moment that

:01:07.:01:10.

the danger is we are going to put a lot of people into temporary

:01:10.:01:16.

accommodation. Some people can end up in temporary accommodation for

:01:16.:01:20.

over two years. That is not a solution. We need to invest in more

:01:20.:01:24.

affordable housing. What about this non-privatisation.

:01:24.:01:30.

We heard in the report that if you were a single man or if you were a

:01:30.:01:33.

childless couple that you were not made a priority. What you think

:01:33.:01:37.

will be the effect of this legal obligation in practice that there

:01:37.:01:43.

should be non-privatisation and everybody should get equal access?

:01:43.:01:49.

This is the significance of the 2012 commitment. We have not just

:01:49.:01:53.

have to use teens procedure, a be a fat to change the ethos and working

:01:53.:01:57.

culture and attitudes towards housing and homelessness

:01:57.:02:00.

departments and local authorities. Local authorities across Scotland

:02:00.:02:03.

have been working hard and the Scottish Government to do that.

:02:03.:02:07.

That will be one of the big pay- offs of this commitment. Can I just

:02:08.:02:11.

remind people that when this commitment was made, it was made

:02:11.:02:15.

with all-party support across the entire political spectrum and the

:02:15.:02:20.

Scottish Parliament. What about securing tenancies and

:02:20.:02:24.

initiatives like that? What kind of role will the private sector have?

:02:24.:02:29.

Do you think we are imaginative enough about actually Freeman that

:02:29.:02:32.

properly? We probably aren't, but it is

:02:32.:02:36.

something to do with housing stock and how big can get access to that.

:02:36.:02:40.

As has been touched on, when this came around in 2003, we did not

:02:40.:02:45.

know about the financial catastrophe that was coming. Access

:02:45.:02:50.

to a tenancy probably would have become a bit easier. To a lot of

:02:50.:02:55.

things that have happened since then have meant that it is not

:02:55.:02:58.

quite as straightforward as just putting a couple of bits of policy

:02:58.:03:02.

into place. Is there a different experience for

:03:02.:03:09.

people in rural areas and in cities, or how does that actually contrast?

:03:09.:03:12.

Between rural and city, and also in different regions across the

:03:12.:03:20.

country. The people that sell The Big Issue in London, you will find

:03:20.:03:25.

many and younger men. In some parts of Scotland, it will beat people

:03:25.:03:28.

who are a bit unsure about whether or not they can meet the next

:03:28.:03:31.

payments on the rent and they are fearful of falling into

:03:31.:03:37.

homelessness. They may have a family. There is no one single kind

:03:37.:03:39.

of person that comes under homelessness.

:03:40.:03:43.

Thank you. Now in homage to St Valentine, it's

:03:43.:03:47.

political seduction time. They are all going to sweet talk you. Look

:03:47.:03:50.

at what a lovely future you could have with them, and, oh, their

:03:50.:03:53.

competitors? Not your type at all. Those referendum party strategists

:03:53.:03:56.

have their eye on you and Hayley Jarvis has been checking out what

:03:56.:04:06.
:04:06.:04:09.

they are going to do about it. We need to start building a big

:04:09.:04:13.

community for this client... family advertising company takes

:04:13.:04:17.

pride in its power to persuade. It is in their business of selling

:04:17.:04:20.

products and ideas and says politics is no different.

:04:20.:04:24.

If you can get a strong message out there that resonates with people,

:04:24.:04:28.

if you can get that message out there, you can actually drive

:04:28.:04:35.

somebody to go whitened actually vote. We did about four executions

:04:35.:04:38.

and... That the agency has worked with

:04:38.:04:41.

almost all of the political parties at some stage and in the case of

:04:41.:04:46.

the success, it was the Conservative and Labour parties.

:04:46.:04:51.

How easy was it to prevent a united front?

:04:51.:04:54.

It was challenging to deal with two sets of people but they knew what

:04:54.:04:56.

they wanted to do. The Independent's campaign will be

:04:56.:05:00.

similar. So if politicians are in the

:05:00.:05:04.

business of selling their brand, I will they reach out to us?

:05:04.:05:10.

A winning campaign needs ideas and evidence and passion. Those are the

:05:10.:05:13.

ingredients that any campaign seeks to bring to bear in its

:05:13.:05:18.

conversation with the voters. The SNP believes positive

:05:18.:05:22.

campaigning led them to victory last May. But party strategists

:05:23.:05:26.

says he will take this approach again using the most up-to-date

:05:26.:05:31.

marketing techniques along the way. Every campaign that we have run in

:05:31.:05:38.

the recent past and have a confident campaign team and they

:05:38.:05:43.

have used every single tool that one uses a modern campaigning and a

:05:43.:05:47.

modern research to be as well informed as you possibly can be, to

:05:47.:05:51.

consider high it is that you are communicating your message and to

:05:51.:05:55.

deploy that message has effectively as you can.

:05:55.:05:59.

Pro-independence bloc or Peter tends to communicate his message

:05:59.:06:03.

face-to-face. He worked as a negotiator dealing with trade

:06:03.:06:06.

disputes and he hopes to use his powers of persuasion at community

:06:06.:06:10.

level. I hope to find people but share my

:06:10.:06:14.

viewpoint and see if we can form a small nucleus to get something

:06:14.:06:22.

moving in and my immediate village. But it has to be broadened to

:06:22.:06:26.

people who have a different viewpoint and who may have a

:06:26.:06:29.

diametrically different viewpoint and to people who have no foreign

:06:29.:06:37.

view at all. It is judging how those undecided voters will be here

:06:37.:06:44.

is that keeps these people busy. Positivity, apparently, is the key.

:06:44.:06:46.

It is this middle ground that both the campaigns are going to be

:06:46.:06:53.

fighting for. Negative campaigns tend to suppress the turnout of

:06:54.:06:58.

those people in the middle. For the Unionists and the SNP, they have to

:06:58.:07:06.

figure out how to get their message across in this positive ways.

:07:07.:07:12.

Try telling that to make Ronnie's campaign team. Attacking the

:07:12.:07:15.

opponents seems to be par for the course. But this negativity could

:07:15.:07:20.

be stifling real debate. That is someone according -- according to

:07:20.:07:24.

someone who has experience on and off the screen.

:07:24.:07:28.

The Scottish should watch what we have done in this country. We have

:07:28.:07:32.

destroyed the political process. Congress cannot even have a

:07:32.:07:39.

conversation because it is so parties and. Everything is related

:07:39.:07:44.

to the upcoming elections, whether it is the two year Congressional

:07:44.:07:50.

elections. They're so better. This is because of all the negativity.

:07:50.:07:54.

Nothing is accomplished here. Positive or negative, the parties

:07:54.:07:58.

will be hoping their sales pitch will appeal to voters across the

:07:58.:08:02.

spectrum in the run-up to the referendum. The real test of their

:08:02.:08:04.

powers of persuasion is that they can stretch that far.

:08:05.:08:08.

With me to shed some more light on the art of political persuasion is

:08:08.:08:10.

the ex-Scottish Labour spin doctor, Simon Pia, the Communications

:08:10.:08:13.

consultant to the SNP, and former special advisor to the First

:08:13.:08:19.

Minister, Jennifer Dempsie. And the Professor of Political

:08:19.:08:27.

Communication at Glasgow University, Sarah Oates.

:08:27.:08:32.

If I were to ask you all very briefly, what makes the perfect

:08:32.:08:37.

politician? Sarah. I would be in a far wealthier

:08:38.:08:41.

position than I am today! The perfect politician is someone who

:08:41.:08:46.

can communicate their message in an upbeat, positive way, respectful of

:08:46.:08:50.

the voters's intelligence, a leading and not following,

:08:50.:08:54.

proposing positive ideas for society while being realistic.

:08:54.:08:59.

Obviously, I have described some on it does not exist!

:08:59.:09:04.

What do you think? I agree with the positive part.

:09:04.:09:08.

Some of his dynamic with the ability to change to react. Someone

:09:08.:09:11.

that is very consultative and listens to ideas from wherever they

:09:11.:09:17.

come from. And over all, some on his 100% dedicated and has a thick

:09:17.:09:21.

skin. The perfect politician... I think

:09:21.:09:25.

it is someone with the Big Idea, conviction, leadership, guts,

:09:25.:09:30.

charisma, courage. And have you found all of those

:09:30.:09:35.

things in any one person? No, I will not as good that! We are

:09:35.:09:42.

constantly talking about a positive environment. And we also know that

:09:42.:09:45.

you're out there checking the focus groups, the SNP are turning to

:09:45.:09:50.

psychologists about voting patterns... How seriously do the

:09:50.:09:53.

strategists take the kind of feedback they get and how far does

:09:53.:09:59.

that actually changed where they might have been going?

:09:59.:10:06.

Very seriously. We build a strategy based on the various things. The

:10:06.:10:12.

obvious the use focus groups to look at opinion polls. We use our

:10:12.:10:17.

Act of its system, which has all hour candidates information right

:10:17.:10:21.

from the doorsteps. And obviously we take from media and what do

:10:21.:10:25.

politicians are saying. There is a whole wide range of things. But

:10:25.:10:30.

having that expertise to look at trends from people who are

:10:30.:10:36.

psychologists and sociologists, it does help look at what the

:10:36.:10:40.

direction of the country is going and what the mood is, particularly

:10:40.:10:45.

with regards to the media. But doesn't that mean that we have

:10:45.:10:47.

the politicians fog and public opinion than what they really hope

:10:47.:10:51.

is that they will shape public opinion and advance to be it?

:10:51.:10:55.

In democracy, it is an elaborate dance. It is between knowing what

:10:55.:10:59.

the public wants and leading the public is something better.

:10:59.:11:06.

President Barack Obama is the perfect type of that person. He

:11:06.:11:09.

exploded onto the scene and did not follow politics as usual. Some of

:11:09.:11:14.

his politics did not have a majority public support. But his

:11:14.:11:20.

image of what the public should be and what the country should be was

:11:20.:11:24.

revolutionary. Up the question in Scotland is, do we have a

:11:24.:11:28.

politician who can also tap into that zeitgeist and at the same time,

:11:28.:11:33.

create a new image of what it is to be Scottish, whether that is to be

:11:33.:11:36.

Scottish within the UK or Scottish within an independent nation. That

:11:36.:11:41.

is the challenge, I think, for the political parties in Scotland today.

:11:41.:11:45.

How prescriptive can you actually be in high and individual interacts

:11:46.:11:49.

with the public? It must come to some point for the do not look

:11:49.:11:52.

pathetic. What has changed dramatically it is

:11:52.:11:57.

that politics is less tribal and people say you rather than

:11:57.:12:01.

identifying themselves as working class, they identified themselves

:12:01.:12:05.

as Scottish primarily. This is to the advantage of the SNP.

:12:05.:12:10.

So what is less tribal with the voters?

:12:10.:12:14.

What all political parties are after is the swing voter, the

:12:14.:12:19.

persuader balls. We try and kid on that we don't follow America, but

:12:19.:12:23.

America has led the way on this. What Jennifer was alluding to -

:12:23.:12:31.

focus groups, they have fallen on hard times. New Labour's success,

:12:31.:12:34.

fill up gold went to America and study into how Clinton encoder that.

:12:34.:12:41.

Gordon Brown is a big fan of this. I know there is people in the SNP

:12:41.:12:44.

who reviewer Philip Gould and they have his began their of us. They

:12:44.:12:51.

use that. It is how you tap into that. A big key thing about 2011...

:12:51.:12:55.

Barack Obama had more money than became. People do not think about

:12:55.:13:00.

that. The SNP had a lot more money than Labour and they spent seven

:13:00.:13:04.

times more than us in the 2011 Election. They had the ability to

:13:05.:13:09.

do market research and spend three times more on advertising. That is

:13:09.:13:16.

a problem. You do pick up on these trends and what people want and

:13:16.:13:20.

it's you know what buzzwords and messages to be Dowds there. They

:13:20.:13:23.

have been tried with the focus groups and have people react in a

:13:23.:13:30.

positive way, that is the key. All parties are negative in certain

:13:30.:13:37.

ways. Alex Salmond got the sun to do his negative smear campaign

:13:37.:13:41.

after ingratiating himself with Sir Rupert Murdoch. The Daily Record

:13:41.:13:46.

was a long-term supporter of Labour, the only people in Scotland. If you

:13:46.:13:51.

want media backing, the SNP got numerous papers to back them. It

:13:51.:14:01.
:14:01.:14:03.

was a sea-change in Scottish You are getting tribal here.

:14:03.:14:07.

Jennifer wants to fight for her side, I want to fight for mine.

:14:07.:14:13.

you buy an election? Out absolutely not. Money is not everything. It

:14:13.:14:17.

would be the easy answer. The fact is money does not mean anything if

:14:17.:14:22.

you do not have the right product and brand and in this case the

:14:22.:14:31.

right party and team and ideas and vision. If the SNP did not have

:14:32.:14:38.

that platform in the recent election, they would not have won.

:14:38.:14:45.

They did attract extra funding from supporters. It enabled us to target

:14:45.:14:51.

people and follow the trends and where the shift in opinion was.

:14:51.:14:56.

When somebody says the word brand about politics and the right

:14:56.:15:04.

message, we are focusing this, do you have any feeling that whatever

:15:04.:15:10.

happened to conviction politics, with people speaking from a heart?

:15:10.:15:15.

I do not have that visceral reaction. Probably because I am

:15:15.:15:20.

American. I feel like an anthropologist who has been dropped

:15:20.:15:26.

into a local tribe to study. As much as I would like to say the

:15:26.:15:30.

sciences everything, it is not. It sets your playing field. After that,

:15:30.:15:39.

the players go out. Alex Salmond has out batted everybody. Alex

:15:39.:15:46.

Salmond has his talent. But my view is the emperor has no clothes. The

:15:46.:15:51.

S&P had their message that they were for Scotland. -- SNP. They

:15:52.:15:59.

wanted to avoid independence at all costs. I am a Labour through and

:15:59.:16:09.
:16:09.:16:11.

through. The point is there was a single coherent positive message. D

:16:11.:16:17.

you accept Labour did not get that? It did not come across. Our message

:16:17.:16:22.

was fighting for what really matters. I would argue the general

:16:22.:16:26.

election in Westminster, people voted on policy is more. The

:16:26.:16:32.

Holyrood election is more about the feeling. The S&P message was that

:16:32.:16:42.
:16:42.:16:45.

they are for Scotland. -- SNP. think absolutely and I said it at

:16:45.:16:51.

the beginning, do not underestimate the intelligence of the voter.

:16:51.:16:57.

Sometimes it is emotion. We are almost out of time. Women voters,

:16:57.:17:07.
:17:07.:17:10.

do they have a distinctive voice? It turns out women are more

:17:10.:17:14.

conservatively voting. It is a fight to get women. They vote with

:17:14.:17:22.

their heads, not their Hearts, to buy into independence.

:17:22.:17:30.

challenge will be for independence, and I think they can do that

:17:30.:17:34.

because they have detailed messages to get across. We are giving the

:17:35.:17:42.

women the last word, Simon. barged in as usual. People to vote

:17:42.:17:48.

on emotions and feeling rather than reason, which his wife those pro-

:17:48.:17:55.

union have to make... Simon, I am sorry, it looks like I am pulling

:17:55.:18:02.

rank. But we are out of time. Thank you. Now time for the lunchtime

:18:02.:18:08.

news. Good afternoon. The Scottish and UK governments say

:18:08.:18:11.

they are hoping to quickly resolve outstanding wrangles over plans for

:18:11.:18:13.

the independence referendum. First Minister Alex Salmond is due to

:18:13.:18:16.

meet with Scottish Secretary Michael Moore tomorrow in Edinburgh.

:18:16.:18:19.

While they have been disagreeing over arrangements to run the ballot,

:18:19.:18:22.

proposed by the SNP for autumn 2014, both sides say there is now more

:18:22.:18:32.
:18:32.:18:35.

common ground. There is no broad consensus about the timing of the

:18:35.:18:39.

referendum. We look forward to hearing views about the questions

:18:39.:18:44.

that might be in that referendum. do not expect tomorrow will be the

:18:44.:18:49.

final discussion on this issue, but it is the start of a positive

:18:49.:18:54.

process, where we can get the details sorted out.

:18:54.:18:57.

Bankers from the Royal Bank of Scotland have been arrested as part

:18:57.:18:59.

of an investigation into alleged personal tax fraud. The arrests

:18:59.:19:02.

include four current staff and one former employee from the Edinburgh-

:19:02.:19:05.

headquartered bank. They were arrested at their homes across

:19:05.:19:10.

London and the Home Counties on Wednesday.

:19:10.:19:12.

Scotland's rugby squad are in Cardiff, taking on Wales at the

:19:12.:19:15.

Millennium Stadium this afternoon in their Six Nations Match. They're

:19:15.:19:18.

looking to bounce back from their opening day defeat last Saturday at

:19:18.:19:25.

Murrayfield, where they lost to England by 13-6. Head coach Andy

:19:25.:19:28.

Robinson says he believes Scotland can upset the odds and is urging

:19:28.:19:38.
:19:38.:19:40.

his players to maintain their composure. There is live coverage

:19:40.:19:44.

composure. There is live coverage on this channel this afternoon. And

:19:44.:19:49.

now the weather. Another cloudy day across the

:19:49.:19:59.
:19:59.:20:01.

country. It was misty first think. There will be mist around today.

:20:01.:20:06.

Temperatures are not too bad. Colder in the south-east. Overnight,

:20:06.:20:11.

there will be a change with the weather front pushing in that will

:20:11.:20:14.

bring colder air and a strengthening north-westerly breeze.

:20:14.:20:21.

It will be windier tomorrow. I will be back with more news this

:20:21.:20:31.
:20:31.:20:32.

In a moment we will discuss some of the big events coming up. But first

:20:32.:20:42.
:20:42.:20:42.

the Week in 60 seconds. Dundee United have come to Glasgow

:20:42.:20:48.

and beaten Rangers! BBC Scotland has uncovered documents that

:20:48.:20:52.

suggest that Rangers' owner may have lied under oath. John Swinney

:20:52.:20:58.

secured backing for his Budget. have listened to views from across

:20:58.:21:08.
:21:08.:21:09.

the chamber. We have acted decisively. And islanders went to

:21:09.:21:13.

parliament to protest about fishing grounds being decimated. There was

:21:13.:21:17.

high drama at the biggest council in Glasgow when dissenting Labour

:21:17.:21:27.
:21:27.:21:27.

councillors threatened the approval of the Budget. I am thrilled and

:21:27.:21:32.

delighted. And the view from Trump Towers. Donald Trump accuses the

:21:32.:21:37.

Scottish government of being hell- bent on destroying Scotland's Coast

:21:37.:21:46.

line with wind turbines. I enjoyed in the studio by two

:21:46.:21:50.

prodigious political bloggers. Kate Higgens, otherwise known as A Burdz

:21:50.:21:55.

Eye View, and Ian Smart, who has his own website and contributes to

:21:55.:22:05.

Labour Hame. Let's talk about the referendum mechanics. How much

:22:05.:22:12.

longer can it go on? Please, not much longer. The sooner we get out

:22:12.:22:19.

of the political parlour and into the public arena, the better.

:22:19.:22:23.

People will just switch off and stop engaging and stick their

:22:23.:22:27.

fingers in their ears and hope it will go away and I think

:22:27.:22:33.

politicians have to be wary of getting to that point. It is a

:22:33.:22:37.

positive sign meetings are going ahead, but let's get the mechanics

:22:37.:22:46.

sorted out sooner rather than later. I agree entirely. This is of

:22:46.:22:50.

interest to political bloggers, but I'm not sure about the general

:22:50.:22:56.

public. Should there be a news blackout until we know the

:22:56.:23:03.

question?! He will oversee it, no more until we know what is

:23:03.:23:09.

proposed? Presumably its horse- trading on screen? Presumably they

:23:09.:23:15.

are flying kites. Alex Salmond will say things have not been finally

:23:15.:23:18.

agreed because they will be finally agreed with the Prime Minister

:23:18.:23:24.

later in the week. He will say a lot of progress has been made and

:23:25.:23:32.

they will reach a consensus in due course. What are we missing when we

:23:32.:23:42.
:23:42.:23:42.

focus on this? We are very much missed in what independence might

:23:42.:23:47.

do or what staying in the union might achieve. At the moment we are

:23:47.:23:50.

at this stage of sorting out the mechanics and also there is

:23:50.:23:56.

shouting going on, and with both side shouting and not making a lot

:23:56.:24:00.

of sense. I made a decision this week not to talk about the

:24:00.:24:06.

referendum for a week because it is boring and there is a lot of wrong

:24:06.:24:10.

information out there. We need to get to the issues that people want

:24:10.:24:15.

to know about to make an informed choice. If we are getting into

:24:15.:24:20.

statistics, how informed? We have the same evidence and conflicting

:24:20.:24:27.

interpretations. It will be tricky. One of the things that has to be

:24:28.:24:33.

clarified is what is meant by independence. In the 1920s, when

:24:33.:24:41.

the SNP was formed, nobody is suggesting that is the model of

:24:41.:24:46.

independence. It is not clear what the alternative is. It was

:24:46.:24:54.

suggested today it appears we will keep the Queen and Stirling.

:24:54.:25:04.
:25:04.:25:04.

need clarity. Do you think no party will come up with anything that

:25:04.:25:13.

involves hard choices? Is that the chilling effect? Yes. I think it is.

:25:13.:25:18.

It would be a missed opportunity. This is a once in a generation

:25:18.:25:23.

opportunity. Party such as the Lib Dems and David Mundell was

:25:23.:25:28.

suggesting today, let's have a yes or know, and then we will discuss

:25:28.:25:33.

powers. Forget that approach. People do not want to spend ten

:25:33.:25:39.

years talking about the constitution. Let's have a proper

:25:39.:25:43.

informed debate about the issues. It is not fair to the Scottish

:25:43.:25:50.

people, otherwise, to neutralise the issues to obtain party

:25:50.:25:55.

advantage. This is the decision of the Scottish people and nobody else.

:25:55.:26:03.

Glasgow, City Council, do you want to go about that? It is a private

:26:03.:26:11.

beef. There is an element that the focus has been on people defecting

:26:11.:26:14.

and maybe the real embarrassment for the Labour Party is how they

:26:14.:26:18.

were Labour councillors in the first place. They are suggesting

:26:18.:26:23.

they are going to stand as independents. The used to be said

:26:23.:26:27.

in Glasgow you could put to Rangers have told a donkey and it would be

:26:27.:26:32.

elected. He is a lawyer and he is heading down a road that is making

:26:32.:26:37.

me uncomfortable. I am worried about defamation! I have not

:26:37.:26:47.

mention names. -- mentioned. The persuasion peace. We know they are

:26:47.:26:53.

looking at ways of gauging what we think and how to appeal. What about

:26:53.:26:58.

the idea of different sections of society, women are in a specific

:26:58.:27:04.

section, there is the youth vote. Some suggest if you are older and

:27:04.:27:11.

affluent, you are less likely to vote SNP. What will may have to do

:27:11.:27:16.

to challenge attitudes? We had a chat about this on the train coming

:27:16.:27:22.

over. We decided we might not impart commercially sensitive

:27:22.:27:30.

information. We have more elections between us than we care to remember.

:27:30.:27:35.

What was really interesting in the discussion earlier work two words

:27:35.:27:42.

missing, trust and respect. People vote for who they believe can make

:27:42.:27:47.

a difference. There is a danger of applying too much science and

:27:47.:27:53.

strategy. It is important. You need to have an approach that works and

:27:53.:28:00.

appeals. But you have to have big ideas. Trust and respect are vital.

:28:00.:28:04.

People will not vote for politicians they like the best

:28:04.:28:08.

necessarily, but for those they feel they can trust to do the job.

:28:08.:28:17.

We saw back in 2011 election. other thing, everybody says you

:28:17.:28:23.

have to be positive. That is the official line. The reason negative

:28:23.:28:27.

campaigning is used is because it works. It is not realistic to think

:28:27.:28:31.

there would not be negative campaigning come the independence

:28:31.:28:38.

referendum. If one side is relying heavily on negative campaigning,

:28:38.:28:43.

well, it is interesting, there are advantages and disadvantages in

:28:43.:28:47.

every argument. It would be condescending to focus on the

:28:47.:28:54.

positive? Absolutely. It is how you do that. The SNP are clever in how

:28:54.:28:59.

they put negativity into their positive message. They use

:28:59.:29:03.

marketing tools and engagement tools to ensure the trip of

:29:04.:29:08.

negativity is happening in a subtle way. I think they have issues,

:29:09.:29:15.

particularly with women, but they are alert to those. They have time

:29:15.:29:22.

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