19/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


19/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest from Greece on the debt crisis, John Prescott on police commissioners and an interview with Scottish secretary Michael Moore.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:43.

What's 130 billion euros between friends? After weeks of uncertainty,

:00:43.:00:46.

violence and brinkmanship it looks like Greece is going to get its

:00:46.:00:51.

second multi-billion euro bailout. But will it rescue Greece from

:00:51.:00:57.

bankruptcy? We talk to one of its finance ministers.

:00:57.:01:00.

David Cameron's been wooing the Scots, suggesting more devolved

:01:00.:01:04.

powers if they remain part of the United Kingdom. But what does that

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really mean? Scottish Secretary Michael Moore joins us for the

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Sunday Interview. We'll be playing good cop. Bad cop

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with former head of the Met, Ian Blair, and former Deputy PM, John

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Prescott, who go head to head on police commissioners.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland, we will be asking Alistair Darling

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what Labour's big idea for the referendum campaign is.

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And we will be looking at gender and politics Danish style, as we

:01:35.:01:44.
:01:45.:01:45.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1506 seconds

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reflect on the fiction of Borgen There where eight pages in the

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Greater London Act. Boris Johnson did not need any of these pages. He

:26:59.:27:09.
:27:09.:27:11.

simply said he did not have confidence and there was the end.

:27:11.:27:18.

have work with a few people who did not have confidence in me! I agree

:27:18.:27:26.

with you. About that in the West Midlands, because that is so big.

:27:26.:27:35.

So you think it might be all right in some parts of the country?

:27:35.:27:41.

say at the beginning of the programme, any small confined

:27:41.:27:47.

airier it is different. But when you have any area will spread out,

:27:47.:27:57.
:27:57.:28:03.

such as Thames Valley. How does one person possibly represent that?

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do not underestimate the plan of people who can say that they can

:28:12.:28:19.

check on what the commissioner does. Yes, but that is the same control

:28:19.:28:25.

they have in London over the budget of the media and not once in a

:28:25.:28:35.
:28:35.:28:38.

years has there been any challenge. How many millions of people are in

:28:38.:28:48.
:28:48.:28:49.

London? In this case, taking Humberside, the police chief has to

:28:49.:28:57.

come to an agreement about the budget. It is about the

:28:57.:29:03.

personalities to a certain extent. But the voice of the people will

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:17.

have more influence in terms of the plan for the next five years.

:29:17.:29:22.

two is going to be interested in you're election as regards the

:29:22.:29:32.
:29:32.:29:33.

likes of counter terrorism. Humberside is not a risky area?

:29:33.:29:41.

They are terrorists everywhere. That will come into it and you do

:29:41.:29:51.

have to have the national policy for it. Gentlemen, we have to leave

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it there. I will talk now to the former leader of helped halt city

:29:59.:30:09.
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It is approaching 1230, you are watching the Sunday politics. Good

:30:09.:30:12.

afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

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programme... The First Minister, the Prime

:30:15.:30:18.

Minister and the Scottish Secretary - they are all talking about the

:30:18.:30:21.

referendum, but what are they actually saying? As David Cameron

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hints at more powers under devolution, what will be spelled

:30:23.:30:27.

out and when? We will be asking former Chancellor

:30:27.:30:30.

Alistair Darling if Labour has a plan and, if they do, what exactly

:30:30.:30:33.

is it? A pilot project delivers an

:30:33.:30:37.

unprecendented fall in knife crime. In this highly sensitive area, what

:30:37.:30:41.

is working and where is the room for improvement? The Justice

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Secretary will be here. Is this the mathematical equation

:30:46.:30:48.

that can predict probability in whether Scotland becomes

:30:48.:30:57.

independent or not? Are all things equal in gender and

:30:57.:31:01.

politics? We have come over all Borgen, to find out if women MSPS

:31:01.:31:05.

at Holyrood find the fictional take true to life?

:31:05.:31:09.

Hello and welcome to the programme. Hold on tight to the tectonic

:31:09.:31:17.

plates, as the most rigid political positions seem to be moving.

:31:17.:31:19.

After we have settled the independence question, if the

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answer to that question is that Scotland wants to stay in the

:31:22.:31:28.

United Kingdom. And I hope that is the, of course then we can have a

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further conversation about how much, how best to arrange the devolved

:31:31.:31:34.

settlement, so that it works for everybody.

:31:34.:31:44.
:31:44.:31:44.

And just earlier, the Scottish Secretary said the following.

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not about has setting out the agenda. But the Scottish National

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Party have failed to set out how an independent Scotland would look

:31:55.:32:05.
:32:05.:32:06.

like. They have failed to address the likes of currency and defence.

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Joining us now from our Edinburgh studio is former Labour Chancellor

:32:09.:32:18.

and the MP for Edinburgh South West, Alistair Darling. In Scotland and

:32:18.:32:22.

see no to independence, what additional powers could come to

:32:22.:32:32.
:32:32.:32:33.

Holyrood? I think the fundamental one is that any parliament which

:32:33.:32:37.

should be able to spend the money, should be able to also raise more

:32:37.:32:43.

money. I think that is essential in my view. The most important

:32:43.:32:47.

question, which we really Doody need to decide sooner rather than

:32:47.:32:53.

later, his army staying in the United Kingdom or leaving? Once you

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answer that question, you can then define what the consequences are.

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Specifically, what sort of tax- raising powers are you talking

:33:03.:33:13.
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about? A if you look at the amount of money Scotland Spence, what you

:33:14.:33:18.

want is to move to a situation where the skull and decides to

:33:18.:33:28.
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spend money on whatever, it has to decide how much taxes would go up.

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I think that is absolute fund just to clarify that, are you talking

:33:38.:33:48.
:33:48.:33:49.

about specific late income tax a range of taxes? The Scottish

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government has had the ability to vary the amount of tax since it was

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set up. Of course, this is more difficult when you get into the

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likes of corporate tax. I think this is essential for the future,

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but the big question we have to answer his army staying in the

:34:07.:34:15.

United Kingdom are not? Whatever the answer to that is, although

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there are lots of other questions that still have to be answered,

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that is the main one. We need to have this debate and I do not see

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why we have to wait another two years until we have it. If you are

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seeking clarity in the debate, surely it is only fair that of

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water has called in to this debate knowing exactly what they're

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letting themselves in for? They need to know about income tax pause

:34:49.:34:59.
:34:59.:34:59.

and the like. Equally, if we have income tax powers, there is no

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point having that in less you have boring powers, which can offset any

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I do not think what we have at the moment is satisfactory. It was fine

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in 1990, but things have moved on. But the first question you have to

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us before be called for any change is simply, are we staying in the

:35:32.:35:39.

United Kingdom or are we leaving? Once that question is the answer,

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we can go forward and look at other aspects. But we simply do not see

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why we have to wait until 2014 until the question is the answer?

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We could easily have this referendum next year. Once that has

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been done, then we can look of what other powers should be be be

:35:59.:36:09.
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devolved from Westminster. The traditional Tory position appears

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to have changed, there been more willingness to may be devolved some

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pause. It would seem you are proposing a one-sided debate. We do

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we have to wait for the alternative. It could be viewed as being the

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most important vote in 300 years in Scotland. Here are saying, trust us.

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You are requiring a great leap of faith. Why not spell out clearly

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what the alternatives are so that people can make an informed

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judgment about whether we stay within the United Kingdom were not?

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The simple question to be asked his army stain or are we going? Is the

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fact that you are not raising the possibility of further powers is

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that because Labour are out of the game as regards this. Why do you

:37:10.:37:16.

not seize the initiative and put forward the cohesive and cogent

:37:16.:37:26.
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case? In the pipeline, there are changes been made. What I do think,

:37:28.:37:31.

the way you address the question about whether we would stay in the

:37:31.:37:38.

United Kingdom were not, has to be a positive one - what is best for

:37:38.:37:45.

Scotland. My answer is that Scotland will derive huge benefits

:37:45.:37:51.

from the strength of the United Kingdom, just as the United Kingdom

:37:51.:37:54.

crows great strength from being in the European Union. You are part of

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the much bigger community. But the first question you ask has to be

:38:02.:38:05.

are you staying in the United Kingdom and then leaving? We could

:38:05.:38:11.

easily have that question a lot sooner than the First Minister

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wants. We need to answer my question now and then once you

:38:14.:38:18.

decide that, then if you have decided to stay, you look for more

:38:18.:38:22.

powers to be devolved to Scotland and if you are leaving, you are

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going to have to answer all sorts of other questions. At the moment,

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there are very few good answers to these. His skull and says no to

:38:35.:38:38.

independence, what political leverage do you think Scotland

:38:38.:38:43.

would have been going to Westminster and asking for more

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powers after a no vote in Scotland? Surely would have no leverage.

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way that was unimaginable a year ago, I think the consensus among

:38:56.:39:06.
:39:06.:39:07.

all political parties that the settlement reached in 1998 is not

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what we want at the moment. We need to move on from that. The DB will

:39:18.:39:25.

eventually be about the extension of powers and other things, but

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simply answer the first question, army's been or are we going. Once

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the question is answered, the it does need to be immediate debate

:39:35.:39:40.

about what further powers the Scottish Parliament needs. But what

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all this is going on, the people in Scotland or facing losing jobs and

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worried about financial and says, it is the economy that actually

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matters. Let us get this constitutional question decided

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once and for all. Would it be for the people and let them decide.

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Then, the politicians can work out what they need to do it to go

:40:07.:40:14.

forward. So what message will the new leader of Scottish Labour have

:40:14.:40:23.

to give to their party conference? It has to be what difference the

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Labour administration will making local authorities and and Scottish

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Parliament. It is available pub powerful message to put out, that

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Labour can make a difference. Yes, we have moved and we needed to move.

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But fundamentally, we are much stronger and we are a much better

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nation within the United Kingdom that we would be apart from it. It

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is a powerful message and Ian sure she will make it.

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Listening to that in our other Edinburgh studio is the Justice

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Secretary, Kenny MacAskill. Is this not a problem for you if the

:41:12.:41:19.

Unionists can put up a commune in no vote. If they can make that a

:41:19.:41:26.

coherent message that could be a big problem? Sadly, it is what we

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have come to expect. We did not buy a pig in the port before and I do

:41:34.:41:39.

not think Scotland are going to accept advice from Labour

:41:39.:41:43.

politicians are very conservative Prime Minister. The need to spell

:41:43.:41:53.
:41:53.:41:53.

out what powers they propose to give to Scotland. Legislation going

:41:53.:41:57.

through Parliament at the moment in Westminster was looking to take

:41:57.:42:01.

power away from Scotland. At a time when we are facing huge cuts from

:42:01.:42:04.

the Conservatives and London and are most vulnerable people face

:42:04.:42:14.
:42:14.:42:17.

challenges and cuts to benefits, we are looking for better. The union

:42:17.:42:21.

has proposition requires a great leap of faith, but you could

:42:21.:42:27.

equally argue that your proposition of saying yes to independence, the

:42:27.:42:32.

most important deal for 300 years, when we come back, you will just

:42:32.:42:39.

have to live with it. The will, we are looking to enter into

:42:39.:42:42.

consultation with them. We have to put forward the questions of what

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we will do as regards currency, as regards defence. Sorry up to

:42:50.:42:55.

interrupt. This is not what you can do, but what you will hope to

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achieve through negotiation, which is the fundamentally different

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question. No, I think the people of Scotland have shown an polls have

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supported that, that what the want to be sure is that independence

:43:09.:43:16.

will deliver for them. They want to make sure that it all face the

:43:16.:43:20.

economic challenges of the future. We have to spell it out to the

:43:20.:43:24.

people of Scotland. It will take time and that is why it is

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important we have the referendum by the autumn 2014. That is the first

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reasonable period we can expect to engage with people and go through

:43:35.:43:45.
:43:45.:43:47.

the requisite procedure that is now What I am suggesting is that you,

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in all good faith can say it when you go to the electorate that this

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is what you will deliver. The point I am asking you to engage with is

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that you will not get everything you want so the things you predict

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you will deliver may have to be changed. After that you will come

:44:07.:44:11.

back and whatever do you have done the rest of us will have to live

:44:11.:44:16.

with, so it requires a leap of faith. It is exactly the same as

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happens after every election. You lay out a manifesto and we had

:44:21.:44:25.

shown the people of Scotland, which is why the were re-elected with a

:44:25.:44:31.

majority government, because we deliver our manifesto commitments.

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Of course there may be some matters that will have to be entered into

:44:37.:44:42.

negotiations with Westminster but we enter into that in a spirit of

:44:42.:44:44.

willingness and Corporation and it is accepted that that is how

:44:44.:44:48.

Westminster would engage. It is in the interests of everyone to make

:44:48.:44:58.
:44:58.:44:59.

sure we had a seen as a matter as possible. Just to clarify your last

:44:59.:45:02.

point. You are saying there are matters during the negotiation

:45:02.:45:05.

process that you would take back to the people of Scotland and a

:45:05.:45:10.

subsequent referendum? We want a referendum and we are asking the

:45:10.:45:15.

people of Scotland at to give us the mandate to negate independence.

:45:15.:45:18.

When you enter any negotiation, whether to the Government in the

:45:18.:45:21.

Scottish Parliament with the Westminster Parliament on a guess

:45:21.:45:25.

it in terms of independence, there are matters that will have to be

:45:25.:45:29.

subject to negotiation. We go into this with the spirit of willingness

:45:29.:45:33.

and we think the UK would do likewise. This is a matter that has

:45:33.:45:40.

been seen elsewhere. Matters are dealt with seamlessly. OK, you were

:45:40.:45:45.

here to talk about something else so if you just bear with us, we are

:45:45.:45:49.

moving on to the conviction of a man last week for stabbing a

:45:49.:45:54.

teenager in Midlothian. It was a stark reminder of the human tragedy

:45:54.:46:01.

of knife crime. But the latest Scottish Government figures show

:46:01.:46:04.

that a pilot scheme in one of the worst effected areas has reduced

:46:04.:46:07.

knife carrying by 33% since 2006. Christine Macleod takes a look at

:46:07.:46:10.

what's contributed to this reduction, and asks what else

:46:10.:46:13.

should be done to challenge the blade culture in some of our

:46:13.:46:14.

communities. Knife crime is a problem that

:46:14.:46:18.

continues to blight Scottish communities. That is why the

:46:18.:46:23.

Scottish government has extended its knife crime campaign to North

:46:23.:46:27.

Lanarkshire. This scheme offers activities, education and advice

:46:27.:46:31.

and support to youth. It is designed to keep them off the

:46:31.:46:37.

streets and away from night. It is called a diversionary approach.

:46:37.:46:41.

lot of them just come in here so they get to know each other and it

:46:41.:46:44.

means they will not go out and fight or whatever. Pit stops

:46:44.:46:49.

violence I think. When they come in here they are all friends.

:46:49.:46:53.

Scottish government has projects like these have contributed to

:46:53.:46:57.

reducing knife crime. They say police stop-and-search and longer

:46:57.:47:00.

sentences have also helped. Is the Government doing enough to tackle

:47:00.:47:05.

knife crime? The main opposition at Holyrood say they are not. They are

:47:06.:47:10.

calling for mandatory minimum sentences. They need to be a clear

:47:10.:47:13.

message sent to people, not just that they will be hammered by the

:47:13.:47:18.

courts and by the system if they use a knife but if they carry a

:47:18.:47:21.

knife in circumstances where they might claim to be acting in self-

:47:21.:47:24.

defence but where the consequences going to be that somebody get

:47:24.:47:27.

killed or injured. They need to understand that that is not

:47:27.:47:33.

acceptable and that will be hammered to pull stop we believe it

:47:33.:47:37.

creates an expectation that any body caught carrying a knife will

:47:37.:47:40.

go to jail. Within that would be a very significant deterrent to

:47:40.:47:45.

people to do that. Calls are also being made to wait sentencing

:47:45.:47:50.

council to ensure that those guilty of similar knife crime us get

:47:50.:47:54.

punished so malaria. At present some get off more lightly than

:47:54.:47:58.

others. We accept the idea of a sentencing council in Scotland.

:47:58.:48:01.

Four justice to be seen to be working the public need to be

:48:01.:48:05.

reassured that justices open, transparent and the sentence is

:48:05.:48:09.

visible to them and they understand it and that offenders are

:48:09.:48:13.

accountable for their actions. Guidelines should be produced that

:48:13.:48:16.

allows offenders to understand and be accountable for their actions

:48:16.:48:22.

and justice will be done and be seen to be done. Some impact --

:48:22.:48:27.

some experts warn that the impact of diversionary schemes is limited.

:48:27.:48:31.

These do not influence all life criminals. What is really needed is

:48:31.:48:38.

more information on what motivates those who continue to commit crimes.

:48:38.:48:43.

We need to create better information and data sources on

:48:43.:48:47.

knife crime. We need to know more about who is carrying a knife and

:48:47.:48:55.

who is using a knife and the situations in which knife carrying

:48:55.:49:00.

happens. At the moment our data does not enable us to do that. As a

:49:00.:49:08.

consequence we cannot tailor strategies to individuals and

:49:08.:49:11.

communities. The fall in knife crime suggests that efforts to

:49:11.:49:15.

tackle it are going in the right direction. Is the current approach

:49:15.:49:21.

sophisticated enough to ensure that it keeps heading that way?

:49:21.:49:25.

Back now to the Justice Secretary. Do you think we need a more

:49:25.:49:28.

sophisticated approach? We are trying to get more accurate data

:49:29.:49:33.

and that is why the violence reduction Unit and others are

:49:33.:49:37.

working to make sure we can roll it out and find that the knife

:49:37.:49:42.

offences that take place are all reported. That work is ongoing in

:49:42.:49:45.

terms of co-operation between criminal justice and health boards

:49:45.:49:51.

to make sure we have adequate data to work upon. We have far too many

:49:51.:49:55.

tragedies that affect not just individual families but entire

:49:55.:49:58.

communities. Things are heading in the right direction but there is a

:49:58.:50:02.

long way to travel to change the culture that we have in Scotland,

:50:02.:50:06.

not simply of knife crime in many areas but indeed of the alcohol

:50:06.:50:11.

abuse that goes with it which has, as my predecessor indicated,

:50:11.:50:17.

created a lethal cocktail. Do you accept that mandatory sentences

:50:17.:50:22.

will act as a deterrent? Actually the average sentence in Scotland is

:50:22.:50:25.

nine months for possession of a knife as so why you would want to

:50:26.:50:30.

give them only six months seems strange. We are in a situation

:50:30.:50:33.

where you are 50% more likely to get a conviction in Scotland and

:50:33.:50:37.

south of the border and the sentence will be 75% longer. We

:50:37.:50:42.

have a tough regime in Scotland. You can go to jail for up to four

:50:42.:50:48.

years just for possessing a weapon. That possession of a knife is

:50:48.:50:52.

therefore the court to use. We have record police numbers. We have

:50:52.:50:55.

record numbers of stop-and-search. What they show is that less people

:50:55.:51:00.

are carrying, thankfully, but still far too many and those who do, more

:51:00.:51:04.

are getting caught and are going to prison for longer so it is working.

:51:04.:51:07.

But we are still blighted by tragedies that have had

:51:07.:51:12.

catastrophic effects. What about the role of a sentencing council?

:51:12.:51:16.

Would it be your intention or expectation that a sentencing

:51:16.:51:20.

council would allow for a predictability of sentences? What

:51:20.:51:25.

would be their role and why have you not move more quickly on it?

:51:25.:51:29.

was only passed in the last Parliament and we are entering into

:51:29.:51:33.

discussion with the judiciary about how we implemented. It would not be

:51:33.:51:38.

specific. It has always been agreed that they could deal with the

:51:38.:51:42.

generalities of matters but it is up to the individual Sheriff Court

:51:42.:51:45.

judge to deal with the particular individual at the time they imposed

:51:45.:51:51.

the sentence. We now have vastly increased sentences under the SNP

:51:51.:51:55.

government but we still retain the right for the individuals Seraph to

:51:55.:52:01.

retain the right to decide what that sentence could be. You can get

:52:01.:52:08.

four years for just possession of a knife. I would support any judge

:52:08.:52:11.

who made that sentence because I have no doubt that it will prevent

:52:11.:52:15.

another tragedy from occurring. We have tough laws but as your package

:52:15.:52:20.

shows we have to change the culture, it is about a bear Cherie

:52:20.:52:24.

activities and tackling a variety of cultural aspects in Scotland. We

:52:24.:52:29.

are making progress. We have the lowest possession of offensive

:52:29.:52:36.

weapons statistics for a decade. We still have a long way to go. Given

:52:36.:52:39.

the pilot projects you have been running, I know you have extended

:52:39.:52:43.

the man they are expensive, but do you think this is money that could

:52:43.:52:48.

be picked up from the prevented a budget? I think so. That is why my

:52:48.:52:51.

work across portfolios in the Scottish government. It is about

:52:51.:52:55.

education, health, all of us pulling together to make Scotland

:52:55.:53:01.

safer. It is about a flaws but also without providing diversionary

:53:01.:53:06.

matters. Thank you very much. Human trafficking, the modern

:53:06.:53:08.

equivalent of the slave trade, is increasing across Europe according

:53:08.:53:11.

to the latest research. An inquiry into the situation here in Scotland

:53:11.:53:14.

led by the QC Helena Kennedy found victims throughout the country. Men

:53:14.:53:18.

women and children, not just in the sex industry, but forced labour in

:53:18.:53:21.

hotels, in restaurants, farms and domestic homes. Baroness Kennedy

:53:21.:53:25.

wants Scotland to break new ground with a zero tolerance approach. MPs

:53:25.:53:33.

at Westminster discuss her findings next week. Here's Hayley Jarvis.

:53:33.:53:38.

The true extent of human trafficking in Scotland is not

:53:38.:53:42.

known. Latest figures show 74 people, including 19 children, are

:53:42.:53:45.

suspected of being trafficked in the last three years but it could

:53:45.:53:50.

be just the tip of an iceberg. The majority come from Nigeria, China

:53:50.:53:56.

and Brazil. Most arrive by England because it appears more people are

:53:56.:54:03.

being trafficked directly into this country. There has been only one

:54:03.:54:07.

prosecution in Scotland for trafficking, compared to more than

:54:07.:54:11.

150 in England and Wales. An inquiry into the equality and human

:54:11.:54:15.

rights commission has called for new legislation in Scotland to

:54:15.:54:19.

allow more convictions. It is a human rights abuse and criminal law

:54:20.:54:24.

should come into play. The primary agency to deal with it should be

:54:24.:54:28.

the police. It should not be the immigration services. Human

:54:28.:54:34.

trafficking is often complicated by this confusion that it somehow is

:54:34.:54:40.

an meshed in emigration. While there are often implications of

:54:40.:54:46.

having come illegally into the country, it is really about crime.

:54:46.:54:49.

The Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency admit to gaps in their

:54:49.:54:52.

intelligence when it comes to trafficking. It is difficult to get

:54:52.:55:01.

a handle on the problem. One of the things that we struggle to do is to

:55:01.:55:05.

find the scale of the problem. Partly that is because getting

:55:05.:55:09.

intelligence, information and knowledge of how much human

:55:09.:55:13.

trafficking exists in Scotland can be quite problematic. Sometimes

:55:13.:55:17.

that is because some of the victims involved do not particularly want

:55:17.:55:22.

to identify themselves as victims because they may have some kind of

:55:22.:55:26.

immigration status issue attached to them. The Scottish government

:55:27.:55:29.

says it is considering the findings but it is encouraging all agencies

:55:29.:55:34.

to work together to tackle the problem. MPs are due to discuss the

:55:34.:55:40.

report at Westminster. Scotland has had a look at it and come up with a

:55:40.:55:44.

proposal for new legislation. We should not rely on old laws. We

:55:44.:55:48.

should bring together all the experience we have had in dealing

:55:48.:55:53.

with human trafficking. It is -- if it is good for Scotland it will be

:55:53.:56:01.

good for all of the UK. This play it draws on the experiences of a

:56:01.:56:05.

young woman traffic to Scotland but in reality the victims are often

:56:05.:56:09.

reluctant to tell their stories. The report heard from 10 women

:56:09.:56:13.

traffic for sexual expectation and gave accounts of threats, beatings

:56:13.:56:19.

and been tricked by members of their own families. Scotland could

:56:19.:56:22.

lead the way in a preventing human trafficking and preventing more

:56:22.:56:26.

women suffering the same fate. Here with me is the head of the

:56:27.:56:30.

Human Trafficking Foundation, Ann Hamilton.

:56:30.:56:35.

What do you think the members of public are not getting? There is a

:56:35.:56:37.

misunderstanding about what trafficking is. There is a view

:56:37.:56:43.

which is about foreign women being kidnapped and dragged across

:56:43.:56:48.

borders and then being exploited, that they have no passports, no

:56:48.:56:53.

money and they are beaten up etc. Actually it is much more subtle

:56:53.:56:58.

than that. People are duped. They are brought here not just from

:56:58.:57:02.

across other countries but from within the country. They get moved

:57:02.:57:07.

around and exploited. There is a fundamental misunderstanding about

:57:07.:57:13.

what trafficking is. It has three elements, the control, the

:57:13.:57:23.

recruitment, the transporting. Then the means can be deception or debt

:57:23.:57:26.

all force and then we have the exploitation which can be sexual

:57:26.:57:30.

exploitation but it can also be labour exploitation. We really have

:57:30.:57:40.
:57:40.:57:43.

not fully understood that. There had a it always in where do people

:57:43.:57:48.

who have been exploited end up? They can be exploited within a

:57:48.:57:51.

family and the exploited as a domestic worker. It does not have

:57:51.:57:58.

to be organised crime they get involved in it. It could be a very

:57:58.:58:02.

small organisation -- operation. It is one of the myths that it is just

:58:02.:58:08.

about huge organised crime operations. It can be much, much

:58:08.:58:11.

smaller than that. A to be quite clear, we are not talking about

:58:11.:58:15.

people not being paid the going rate for the work they are doing,

:58:15.:58:19.

this is a broader front thing. is very different. It is not about

:58:19.:58:29.

not being paid the minimum wage. It is about control, deception, debt,

:58:29.:58:33.

yes. Baroness Kennedy said that when we put together and multi-

:58:33.:58:38.

statutory response to this, she was heading towards a zero tolerance

:58:39.:58:45.

situation in Scotland. She wants to shift the emphasis from immigration

:58:45.:58:49.

to crime. That is absolutely right. It is not an immigration issue.

:58:49.:58:53.

There are immigration issues involved in the crime but that is

:58:53.:58:59.

not the primary element. Does it stop people coming forward? It does.

:58:59.:59:03.

People are frightened. They are very stigmatised. They are ashamed

:59:03.:59:07.

of what they have been involved in. They feel complicit in what they

:59:07.:59:12.

have been involved in. It is very difficult to come forward for

:59:12.:59:18.

assistance. That is what makes it infuriating for police and others,

:59:18.:59:22.

they feel that victims are not prepared to tell them their story

:59:22.:59:25.

but the reason for that is that they are quite often treated as

:59:25.:59:31.

criminals themselves. They are frightened and stigmatised.

:59:31.:59:38.

would seem to a lot of people watching that what could they do

:59:39.:59:42.

about it even if they could identify it. The problems are

:59:42.:59:46.

difficult to identify so what would you encourage people to do if they

:59:46.:59:50.

have any suspicions at all? major thing is for the Government

:59:50.:59:55.

to show leadership on this. They should start an Inter agency

:59:55.:59:59.

working at a Scottish level. We do not have that. We do not have

:59:59.:00:04.

organisations meeting at the moment to talk about the issues. In terms

:00:04.:00:08.

of individuals we have to look at the demand for sexual services. Why

:00:08.:00:16.

are men in Scotland still looking to buy sex? Is that part of a

:00:16.:00:20.

modern society? Is that something we wanted to have? Why are people

:00:20.:00:26.

still wanting cheap goods, cheap produce, cheap labour within the

:00:26.:00:31.

household? It is about the demand that creates the the whole problem.

:00:31.:00:38.

There is plenty of claim and counterclaim in the independence

:00:38.:00:42.

debate. But can science cut through the arguments and get us closer to

:00:42.:00:45.

the likely outcome? An international study has been

:00:45.:00:48.

looking for the parts of Europe most likely to become independent

:00:48.:00:49.

nations. The researchers from Spain, France

:00:49.:00:52.

and the United States used economic and genetic data to find which

:00:52.:00:56.

countries were most stable - and those most likely to break up. So

:00:56.:01:01.

where does Scotland stand? Our science correspondent Kenneth

:01:01.:01:10.

Macdonald can reveal all. This is what Europe looks like - a

:01:10.:01:17.

patchwork of nations. Some of these are fairly new, especially those

:01:17.:01:23.

which have broken away from others and got independence. But this is

:01:23.:01:31.

also what Europe looks like - at a mathematical model. It has

:01:31.:01:37.

identified which nations and the most and least stable. It is the

:01:37.:01:46.

you result of work in France, Madrid and the United States.

:01:46.:01:52.

we were trying to do is take this research one step further and try

:01:52.:01:59.

and build a model which allows us to quantify the incentives for

:01:59.:02:09.
:02:09.:02:10.

regions to either seek independence or unite. Much of the original data

:02:10.:02:15.

was from the original Yugoslavia, where predictions were that the

:02:15.:02:21.

country would indeed break-up, which is what happened. We find

:02:21.:02:31.

that first the public want to leave it, such as Slovenia and Croatia

:02:31.:02:39.

and then we find Montenegro did not want to leave. But what did a model

:02:39.:02:43.

tell us about our likely future? It said the country's most likely to

:02:43.:02:50.

break away in Europe where the Basque country's and Scotland. Is

:02:50.:03:00.
:03:00.:03:01.

it inevitable? There is a difference, Slovenia had a much

:03:01.:03:06.

richer economy than parts of Yugoslavia, whereas Scotland and

:03:06.:03:16.
:03:16.:03:17.

England are much closer. When I say the Basque country are a top

:03:17.:03:23.

candidates, then it turns out that Scotland is not far behind. It

:03:24.:03:27.

means this column was a little bit richer run a little bit bigger, it

:03:27.:03:36.

may well ought to do that. 1 the number to suggest is something that

:03:36.:03:44.

sounds suspiciously like Deval next. It is maybe a situation whereby

:03:44.:03:54.
:03:54.:03:54.

they get extra powers as opposed to going completely independent.

:03:54.:03:58.

Looking at countries most likely to mere words, the top of the last

:03:58.:04:06.

where Switzerland and Austria. If Britain were to merge with any

:04:06.:04:16.
:04:16.:04:16.

other country, the country it is most likely to merge with would

:04:16.:04:22.

actually be France. There is a long love-the relationship for many

:04:22.:04:27.

centuries, but that is the country, if they were to merge, that they

:04:27.:04:32.

would be most likely to call with. It also said the merger between

:04:32.:04:39.

Britain and Germany was possible. There is of course across the it.

:04:39.:04:45.

These calculations do not attempt to predict the future. First column,

:04:45.:04:55.
:04:55.:04:55.

there lies not in equations but in kvingleer politiker ee de danske

:04:55.:04:57.

drama Bowen ogde kvinglee politiker ee scotlands politik.

:04:57.:05:07.
:05:07.:05:26.

Ok een er ficktion men ikke lang Bit as good is the programme about

:05:26.:05:31.

the power for women, who is also quite humane. I think that spoke to

:05:31.:05:41.
:05:41.:05:47.

us. It did talk about some of the compromises you have to make. I

:05:47.:05:50.

think many women will recognise that you sometimes have to cut

:05:50.:05:55.

corners, similar because you have so many different jobs you have to

:05:55.:06:03.

do at the one time. If you go into politics, you have to have the

:06:03.:06:10.

thick skin. With the access to technology nowadays, people can

:06:10.:06:15.

make immediate comments about you. We have not broken through about

:06:15.:06:25.
:06:25.:06:25.

the double standards the women face It really does capture politics and

:06:25.:06:33.

the row. It also captures aspects of coalition politics. You have to

:06:33.:06:37.

be assertive and confident. You are surrounded by lots of very strong

:06:37.:06:44.

people. Now that I am out of politics, I have discovered these

:06:44.:06:49.

things called weekends which everybody else had, which I can now

:06:49.:06:59.
:06:59.:07:09.

husband felt less masculine when his wall changed. When he was

:07:09.:07:13.

running the household, he was desperate to get back to the status

:07:13.:07:17.

he used to have any a work environment. But for most parents,

:07:17.:07:22.

it should not be an either or. We should both be playing an important

:07:22.:07:27.

part in our children pause Mark upbringing. There are cultural

:07:27.:07:34.

shifts needed. Often, someone can do something on your behalf. The

:07:34.:07:41.

point is that you want to do these things yourself. You want to go to

:07:41.:07:49.

the school concert and want to go to that parents' night. The numbers

:07:49.:07:57.

and the parliament is that the parliament has made more efforts to

:07:57.:08:05.

make things more female-friendly compared to local councils. Local

:08:05.:08:15.
:08:15.:08:15.

councils a lot of the evening meetings and things like that.

:08:15.:08:20.

Nicola Sturgeon and others have watched Borgen and it would be and

:08:20.:08:24.

they ought not to see how women across the world in politics cope

:08:24.:08:28.

with depression and strains of that and family life. There are times

:08:28.:08:32.

when you do not feel as confident as you Wanstead and you have to put

:08:32.:08:37.

forward the vineyard that shows outwardly you are coping well. But

:08:37.:08:40.

you still have the stresses and strains of having a young family at

:08:40.:08:47.

home. It is really important to have a supportive husband. I am

:08:47.:08:52.

really lucky that he is here and be able to take a bit of a career

:08:52.:09:01.

break to look after her son, Angus. But of course, once we get warm, he

:09:01.:09:07.

is wanted to chat, because he has been with Angus all day, whereas I

:09:07.:09:12.

am more keen to switch off. But I have to make sure right here for

:09:12.:09:22.
:09:22.:09:29.

We have two guests in the studio - the SNP MSP for the South of

:09:29.:09:32.

Scotland, Joan McAlpine, and Dr Fiona Mackay, the Director of the

:09:32.:09:34.

Graduate School of Social & Political Science at Edinburgh

:09:34.:09:44.
:09:44.:09:46.

University. His it tougher for Women in politics than men? I thing

:09:46.:09:56.

get depends. I think we can sometimes talk too much about this.

:09:56.:10:03.

We are not ever going to say women MSPs, who get a very big salary and

:10:03.:10:09.

can afford to pay for other things, compared to other ski female

:10:09.:10:18.

workers. I'm not is one Cabinet minister to meeting that he had

:10:18.:10:24.

topped his kids than one Thursday night and they did not see that he

:10:24.:10:27.

was going to see him for another four or five days because he was

:10:27.:10:32.

going to Europe for a conference. So it obviously affects brain just

:10:32.:10:39.

as much. But both jobs can be very demanding and in politics, you have

:10:39.:10:43.

an obligation to the people who elected you, so there is a feeling

:10:43.:10:48.

you cannot do enough for them. There are times when the family

:10:48.:10:53.

simply asked to step back. You are dealing with the people who elected

:10:53.:11:03.
:11:03.:11:04.

you. You maybe also needing to liaise with party activists. But if

:11:04.:11:10.

we look at the actual structures, is that the case that the structure

:11:11.:11:16.

response to getting the best women in place or two women come forward

:11:16.:11:25.

and it is the woman who can survive the structure that five? I think it

:11:25.:11:30.

is the combination of the two. There was a big change to try and

:11:30.:11:38.

alter the structure of the Scottish Parliament. As time goes by, if you

:11:38.:11:45.

keep to the forefront the value of the life-work balance. I think what

:11:45.:11:49.

made the television series so arresting is that it showed the

:11:49.:11:54.

kind of compromises politicians have to make, both politically and

:11:54.:12:02.

personally. It also shows that women, the costs are often greater

:12:02.:12:08.

than they are for men, in general. In a we, the old-fashioned

:12:08.:12:11.

relationship where the women was a warm looking after the children

:12:12.:12:17.

will the husband was out walking. There are women who still enjoy the

:12:17.:12:21.

role and that is the totally valid choice. You do not get the same

:12:21.:12:28.

amount of tensions between a traditional relationship. Whereas,

:12:28.:12:33.

if that is the relationship when the man is assuming their role,

:12:33.:12:37.

like the academic husband at the TV programme, there are going to be

:12:37.:12:42.

tensions, because that is not is something expected of the man. I

:12:42.:12:45.

think it Birgitte Nyborg, they have an agreement that in five years'

:12:45.:12:55.
:12:55.:12:58.

time, he will get his tongue at his But it is that a pressure that if

:12:58.:13:02.

you do not have a family, you simply hand over your entire life

:13:02.:13:12.
:13:12.:13:12.

to politics? Yes, a coup de a problem. But then again, I think it

:13:12.:13:22.
:13:22.:13:25.

goes with every career? A you treated differently because you

:13:25.:13:32.

made that choice by you're male colleagues? I do not think so. I am

:13:33.:13:42.
:13:43.:13:44.

quite assertive about it. Things have to give. I do not of a social

:13:44.:13:49.

life, but then again I have been a warm cooking meals for my daughter,

:13:49.:13:56.

which is great. You have to put the children first. Does the has become

:13:56.:14:01.

very self-selecting. If you look at the professions that people in the

:14:01.:14:04.

Scottish Parliament have come from, they're the likes of a lot of

:14:05.:14:13.

lawyers, medics, teachers. You do not see a lot of the likes of

:14:13.:14:20.

farmers, artists or the like. Is there a certain role you have

:14:20.:14:24.

previously fulfilled that helps when it goes to going to

:14:24.:14:31.

Parliament? If you look at politics been a very greedy institution in

:14:31.:14:37.

terms of it sucking your time, it is very excluding of the be the

:14:37.:14:41.

work pooled by you would take all politicians from. It raises the

:14:41.:14:45.

question of if you want to know what politics we want and what

:14:45.:14:49.

politicians we want and what sort of leaves we want them to manage,

:14:49.:14:54.

what is clear is that we do not allow politicians to have much of a

:14:54.:15:01.

life. I would like to have some sort of hinterland, some sort of

:15:01.:15:11.
:15:11.:15:13.

experience that they do go home. That is why it is important for me

:15:13.:15:16.

if the likes of, my daughter says she has a school Cont concert,

:15:16.:15:24.

which is quite a regular thing because she plays music, have

:15:25.:15:31.

important is it that people from other parties to say, I am out of

:15:31.:15:38.

the door at a certain time. Is it very tribal and the respect? There

:15:38.:15:42.

have not heard of kids being vilified for going to their

:15:42.:15:52.
:15:52.:15:55.

You have to be there for the Broda. You have to be there at 5 o'clock

:15:55.:16:04.

at night. But most people do work until five. It is just because we

:16:04.:16:07.

work longer hours the rest of the time that you might work well into

:16:07.:16:13.

the night the rest of the time. What is interesting is that there

:16:14.:16:17.

are all sorts of reasons you might want reforms for flexibility, no

:16:17.:16:22.

one is talking about family friendly hours and if you increase

:16:22.:16:26.

the sitting times of the parliament you are moving back on those

:16:27.:16:34.

original things that had a sudden I've value if not a practical value.

:16:34.:16:38.

Thank you very much from both of you. And now here's the lunchtime

:16:38.:16:42.

news with Gillian Smart. Good Afternoon. The Rangers manager

:16:42.:16:44.

Ally McCoist is welcoming the Scottish Football Association's

:16:44.:16:47.

investigation into events at the club. Meanwhile, administrators are

:16:47.:16:49.

examining information on the takeover and running of the side to

:16:49.:16:53.

form a fuller picture of its finances. Rangers lost 1-0 to

:16:53.:16:56.

Kilmarnock yesterday afternoon at a sold out Ibrox in their first game

:16:56.:17:04.

since going into administration. The amount of clarity that comes

:17:04.:17:09.

out in the whole issue is obviously vital to everybody, supporters, you

:17:09.:17:14.

guys, employees and everybody. We want all the facts and figures and

:17:14.:17:19.

everything, everything disclosed. I think it is the very least the

:17:19.:17:23.

supporters and the staff deserve. The energy giant Exxon Mobil has

:17:23.:17:26.

been fined �2.8 million for failing to report 33,000 tonnes of carbon

:17:26.:17:28.

dioxide emissions at its ethylene plant in Mosmorran. The Scottish

:17:28.:17:31.

Environmental Protection Agency issued the fine in 2010 and says

:17:31.:17:33.

the penalty was a mandatory consequence of breaching the EU

:17:33.:17:39.

Emmisions trading scheme. Its thought to be the biggest fine ever

:17:39.:17:45.

for an environmental offence in the A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow,

:17:45.:17:50.

A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow, here's Cat Cubie with the forecast.

:17:50.:17:54.

Good afternoon. It was a chilly start this morning and the frost

:17:54.:17:58.

will be slow to lift in some places. We will continue to the wintry snow

:17:58.:18:03.

showers in the north. Some sunshine especially across the south and

:18:03.:18:07.

east. It will stay chilly. Temperatures only reaching around

:18:07.:18:14.

four Celsius. Overnight we will see a change with the front at pushing

:18:14.:18:17.

in from the West. There will be outbreaks of rain across the

:18:17.:18:21.

country and a strengthening wind. It will bring milder air.

:18:21.:18:24.

That's all for now, our next bulletin is at 6.20pm. I'll hand

:18:24.:18:27.

you back now to Isabel. Thanks Gillian. Now in a moment,

:18:27.:18:30.

we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,

:18:30.:18:40.
:18:40.:18:46.

let's take a look back at the Week Rangers football club went into

:18:46.:18:51.

administration with the tax liability being up to �75 million.

:18:51.:18:57.

An inquiry will be held. The level is so high that it would be

:18:57.:19:02.

completely unmanageable if we allow it to come to a conclusion.

:19:02.:19:06.

report into the murder of a toddler by his mother says that social

:19:06.:19:11.

workers should have acted sooner but concedes that she was devious.

:19:11.:19:16.

A Aberdeen run of -- residents look at redevelopment plans and the

:19:16.:19:20.

Designing architect from York once the architect -- public to fall in

:19:20.:19:23.

love with his vision. The number of people out of work in

:19:23.:19:33.

Scotland has risen. It is now a 0.6%. It is 8.4% of the rest of the

:19:33.:19:38.

Finally, Edinburgh-born a comedian Robbie, a bet that -- Ronnie

:19:38.:19:44.

Corbett was awarded a CBE. So it looks like the two big

:19:44.:19:47.

stories this week have revolved around negotiations, both on and

:19:47.:19:56.

off the pitch. With me today we have two political

:19:56.:19:59.

journalists, Angus Macleod from the Times, and Alex Massie from The

:19:59.:20:09.
:20:09.:20:10.

Spectator. Thank you very much for coming in.

:20:10.:20:13.

Where do you think we have got to on the hold who says what on the

:20:13.:20:17.

referendum and what they really mean and where it will end up?

:20:17.:20:21.

has been fascinating and that is the perfectly safe. I have a

:20:21.:20:25.

strange impression that now that all the Unionist parties are

:20:25.:20:29.

groping towards a position somewhere on a line between the

:20:29.:20:36.

Scotland Bill at one end and D Lomax and the other. Alastair

:20:36.:20:39.

Darling's intervention is very significant. He is putting himself

:20:39.:20:46.

somewhere on that line alongside David Cameron. One other thing

:20:46.:20:49.

which is speculation, what is assuming more significance than

:20:49.:20:56.

people David when it was launched what the Lib Dem Commission. I

:20:56.:21:01.

think when it reports it will be interesting to see what it says.

:21:01.:21:04.

Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg are both behind that report and they

:21:04.:21:08.

are members of a group that is directing this Coalition. Could it

:21:08.:21:12.

be, absolute speculation, but could it be that the Coalition will find

:21:12.:21:15.

itself throwing his weight behind whatever that commission comes up

:21:15.:21:22.

with? It is interesting because today the Lib Dems have issued an

:21:22.:21:25.

offer to other parties to say it have a look at what we are coming

:21:25.:21:29.

up with a we can all work of that sheep if you like? Is that a

:21:29.:21:37.

potential way forwards? I think that line has gone to some extent.

:21:37.:21:43.

We have moved to a situation where the question will be yes to

:21:43.:21:51.

independence or no to independence to being one that maybe more

:21:51.:21:55.

complicated. Will there be fiscal autonomy or real home rule? The Lib

:21:55.:22:02.

Dems have a a Goldilocks -- Arie Goldie looks of the Unionist

:22:02.:22:06.

parties. They are neither too hot nor too cold and they can Perhaps

:22:06.:22:11.

persuade Labour and Conservatives are to meet in the middle. They may

:22:12.:22:15.

offer a range of proposals. Those proposals will obviously have to be

:22:15.:22:20.

clarified and spelt out at some point and that has to be spelt out

:22:20.:22:25.

before there is a referendum and not after. Is it a point that they

:22:25.:22:28.

cannot hold the line for much longer which says just trust us and

:22:28.:22:34.

we will actually give you something? Will that still be

:22:34.:22:38.

credible? If it is not he defines what the alternative proposals will

:22:38.:22:42.

be? If you have three Unionist camps who will be playing to their

:22:42.:22:50.

own bases? Who will do fine where to go? That is a great danger for

:22:50.:22:53.

the Unionist camp that I can use that phrase. You might get three

:22:53.:22:58.

different versions bouncing around. It is not credible. I think

:22:58.:23:01.

commonsense and political sense will come into play the up. People

:23:01.:23:06.

will realise that you cannot go into a referendum saying vote no

:23:06.:23:09.

and you never know what you might get because if that is the case

:23:10.:23:14.

then that vote becomes the real leap in the dark and not the vote

:23:14.:23:20.

for yes. Do you agree with that? Entirely. There are questions that

:23:21.:23:24.

have to be asked and answered by independence but at least everybody

:23:24.:23:28.

has a decent notion of what independence might be like. It is a

:23:28.:23:32.

relatively certain thing. At the moment from Mr Darling and Mr

:23:32.:23:37.

Cameron and other senior members of the Unionist opposition we have a

:23:37.:23:40.

complete lack of clarity and a complete lack of certainty. You

:23:40.:23:46.

can't actually put it as a matter of faith or trust it has to have

:23:46.:23:54.

real answers. We saw David Cameron saying something that Ruth Davidson

:23:54.:23:58.

had not taken a position on and now Alistair Darling a thing he could

:23:58.:24:01.

look at income tax powers and are not ruling out other powers and yet

:24:01.:24:07.

we have not heard that from Johann Lamont. What is going on? Too much

:24:07.:24:11.

has been made of this Ruth Davidson line in the sand. She make -- she

:24:11.:24:15.

said it last August when she was still only a candidate in the

:24:15.:24:19.

leadership election. It ignores a point about policy evolves in any

:24:19.:24:23.

political party and especially if you have a stutter just like George

:24:23.:24:27.

Osborne in your ranks when he is certainly beginning to drive the

:24:27.:24:31.

policy of the Conservative Party in the whole constitutional argument

:24:31.:24:40.

in Scotland in terms of labour --. In terms of labour it seems that

:24:40.:24:43.

Johann Lamont will say something very important. What we are

:24:43.:24:48.

watching for is not simply that she launches a Labour campaign to save

:24:48.:24:55.

devolution but that she perhaps follows the Alistair Darling path

:24:55.:24:59.

and set something out on this programme and in a Sunday newspaper.

:24:59.:25:04.

If Alastair Darling is heading this up, could it 0.2 AC given a role

:25:04.:25:08.

for him in the campaign and does it not highlight the fact that we have

:25:08.:25:12.

not heard enough from people within Scotland? You could argue we have

:25:12.:25:17.

had far too much from Labour in Scotland! On this particular issue

:25:17.:25:20.

you could say there has been a welcome silence from Labour in

:25:20.:25:26.

Scotland! The Labour Scottish leadership appears to be at best

:25:26.:25:31.

tangential to the debate and probably utterly irrelevant. Yes,

:25:31.:25:41.

Alastair Darling, Douglas Alexander, these are Labour's heavy hitters

:25:41.:25:45.

but moving towards a greater range of powers, particularly on the

:25:45.:25:47.

physical side of things in the Scottish Parliament, this is

:25:47.:25:51.

something that the Conservatives should be backing as well. It fits

:25:51.:25:57.

in with a jaw Tory principles of localism, accountability and the

:25:57.:26:01.

need for Parliament to raise money as well as spend it. What will be

:26:01.:26:08.

interesting is that we see an alliance between the Tories and the

:26:08.:26:13.

SNP's. That argument did not wash with the grass roots. Do not forget

:26:13.:26:17.

that Labour are crucial in this process simply because in any

:26:17.:26:23.

referendum the Labour votes that they can deliver on one side in a

:26:23.:26:29.

referendum could be the decisive factor. We are almost out of time.

:26:29.:26:35.

Do you have anything to say about Rangers? It is a terrible shame.

:26:35.:26:38.

Obviously it is a shock but it is one of these kind of inevitable

:26:39.:26:42.

shocks. I do not understand how people can go around saying that

:26:42.:26:48.

Celtic could survive without Rangers. I just do not see it. I

:26:48.:26:55.

think is daydreaming. Do you have anything to say about Borgen.

:26:55.:26:58.

terrific. Everybody should watch it. Could there be a Scottish version

:26:58.:27:04.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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