19/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

Good afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics.

What's 130 billion euros between friends? After weeks of uncertainty,

violence and brinkmanship it looks like Greece is going to get its

second multi-billion euro bailout. But will it rescue Greece from

bankruptcy? We talk to one of its finance ministers.

David Cameron's been wooing the Scots, suggesting more devolved

powers if they remain part of the United Kingdom. But what does that

really mean? Scottish Secretary Michael Moore joins us for the

Sunday Interview. We'll be playing good cop. Bad cop

with former head of the Met, Ian Blair, and former Deputy PM, John

Prescott, who go head to head on police commissioners.

And on Sunday Politics Scotland, we will be asking Alistair Darling

what Labour's big idea for the referendum campaign is.

And we will be looking at gender and politics Danish style, as we

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1506 seconds

reflect on the fiction of Borgen There where eight pages in the

Greater London Act. Boris Johnson did not need any of these pages. He

simply said he did not have confidence and there was the end.

have work with a few people who did not have confidence in me! I agree

with you. About that in the West Midlands, because that is so big.

So you think it might be all right in some parts of the country?

say at the beginning of the programme, any small confined

airier it is different. But when you have any area will spread out,

such as Thames Valley. How does one person possibly represent that?

do not underestimate the plan of people who can say that they can

check on what the commissioner does. Yes, but that is the same control

they have in London over the budget of the media and not once in a

years has there been any challenge. How many millions of people are in

London? In this case, taking Humberside, the police chief has to

come to an agreement about the budget. It is about the

personalities to a certain extent. But the voice of the people will

have more influence in terms of the plan for the next five years.

two is going to be interested in you're election as regards the

likes of counter terrorism. Humberside is not a risky area?

They are terrorists everywhere. That will come into it and you do

have to have the national policy for it. Gentlemen, we have to leave

it there. I will talk now to the former leader of helped halt city

It is approaching 1230, you are watching the Sunday politics. Good

afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

programme... The First Minister, the Prime

Minister and the Scottish Secretary - they are all talking about the

referendum, but what are they actually saying? As David Cameron

hints at more powers under devolution, what will be spelled

out and when? We will be asking former Chancellor

Alistair Darling if Labour has a plan and, if they do, what exactly

is it? A pilot project delivers an

unprecendented fall in knife crime. In this highly sensitive area, what

is working and where is the room for improvement? The Justice

Secretary will be here. Is this the mathematical equation

that can predict probability in whether Scotland becomes

independent or not? Are all things equal in gender and

politics? We have come over all Borgen, to find out if women MSPS

at Holyrood find the fictional take true to life?

Hello and welcome to the programme. Hold on tight to the tectonic

plates, as the most rigid political positions seem to be moving.

After we have settled the independence question, if the

answer to that question is that Scotland wants to stay in the

United Kingdom. And I hope that is the, of course then we can have a

further conversation about how much, how best to arrange the devolved

settlement, so that it works for everybody.

And just earlier, the Scottish Secretary said the following.

not about has setting out the agenda. But the Scottish National

Party have failed to set out how an independent Scotland would look

like. They have failed to address the likes of currency and defence.

Joining us now from our Edinburgh studio is former Labour Chancellor

and the MP for Edinburgh South West, Alistair Darling. In Scotland and

see no to independence, what additional powers could come to

Holyrood? I think the fundamental one is that any parliament which

should be able to spend the money, should be able to also raise more

money. I think that is essential in my view. The most important

question, which we really Doody need to decide sooner rather than

later, his army staying in the United Kingdom or leaving? Once you

answer that question, you can then define what the consequences are.

Specifically, what sort of tax- raising powers are you talking

about? A if you look at the amount of money Scotland Spence, what you

want is to move to a situation where the skull and decides to

spend money on whatever, it has to decide how much taxes would go up.

I think that is absolute fund just to clarify that, are you talking

about specific late income tax a range of taxes? The Scottish

government has had the ability to vary the amount of tax since it was

set up. Of course, this is more difficult when you get into the

likes of corporate tax. I think this is essential for the future,

but the big question we have to answer his army staying in the

United Kingdom are not? Whatever the answer to that is, although

there are lots of other questions that still have to be answered,

that is the main one. We need to have this debate and I do not see

why we have to wait another two years until we have it. If you are

seeking clarity in the debate, surely it is only fair that of

water has called in to this debate knowing exactly what they're

letting themselves in for? They need to know about income tax pause

and the like. Equally, if we have income tax powers, there is no

point having that in less you have boring powers, which can offset any

I do not think what we have at the moment is satisfactory. It was fine

in 1990, but things have moved on. But the first question you have to

us before be called for any change is simply, are we staying in the

United Kingdom or are we leaving? Once that question is the answer,

we can go forward and look at other aspects. But we simply do not see

why we have to wait until 2014 until the question is the answer?

We could easily have this referendum next year. Once that has

been done, then we can look of what other powers should be be be

devolved from Westminster. The traditional Tory position appears

to have changed, there been more willingness to may be devolved some

pause. It would seem you are proposing a one-sided debate. We do

we have to wait for the alternative. It could be viewed as being the

most important vote in 300 years in Scotland. Here are saying, trust us.

You are requiring a great leap of faith. Why not spell out clearly

what the alternatives are so that people can make an informed

judgment about whether we stay within the United Kingdom were not?

The simple question to be asked his army stain or are we going? Is the

fact that you are not raising the possibility of further powers is

that because Labour are out of the game as regards this. Why do you

not seize the initiative and put forward the cohesive and cogent

case? In the pipeline, there are changes been made. What I do think,

the way you address the question about whether we would stay in the

United Kingdom were not, has to be a positive one - what is best for

Scotland. My answer is that Scotland will derive huge benefits

from the strength of the United Kingdom, just as the United Kingdom

crows great strength from being in the European Union. You are part of

the much bigger community. But the first question you ask has to be

are you staying in the United Kingdom and then leaving? We could

easily have that question a lot sooner than the First Minister

wants. We need to answer my question now and then once you

decide that, then if you have decided to stay, you look for more

powers to be devolved to Scotland and if you are leaving, you are

going to have to answer all sorts of other questions. At the moment,

there are very few good answers to these. His skull and says no to

independence, what political leverage do you think Scotland

would have been going to Westminster and asking for more

powers after a no vote in Scotland? Surely would have no leverage.

way that was unimaginable a year ago, I think the consensus among

all political parties that the settlement reached in 1998 is not

what we want at the moment. We need to move on from that. The DB will

eventually be about the extension of powers and other things, but

simply answer the first question, army's been or are we going. Once

the question is answered, the it does need to be immediate debate

about what further powers the Scottish Parliament needs. But what

all this is going on, the people in Scotland or facing losing jobs and

worried about financial and says, it is the economy that actually

matters. Let us get this constitutional question decided

once and for all. Would it be for the people and let them decide.

Then, the politicians can work out what they need to do it to go

forward. So what message will the new leader of Scottish Labour have

to give to their party conference? It has to be what difference the

Labour administration will making local authorities and and Scottish

Parliament. It is available pub powerful message to put out, that

Labour can make a difference. Yes, we have moved and we needed to move.

But fundamentally, we are much stronger and we are a much better

nation within the United Kingdom that we would be apart from it. It

is a powerful message and Ian sure she will make it.

Listening to that in our other Edinburgh studio is the Justice

Secretary, Kenny MacAskill. Is this not a problem for you if the

Unionists can put up a commune in no vote. If they can make that a

coherent message that could be a big problem? Sadly, it is what we

have come to expect. We did not buy a pig in the port before and I do

not think Scotland are going to accept advice from Labour

politicians are very conservative Prime Minister. The need to spell

out what powers they propose to give to Scotland. Legislation going

through Parliament at the moment in Westminster was looking to take

power away from Scotland. At a time when we are facing huge cuts from

the Conservatives and London and are most vulnerable people face

challenges and cuts to benefits, we are looking for better. The union

has proposition requires a great leap of faith, but you could

equally argue that your proposition of saying yes to independence, the

most important deal for 300 years, when we come back, you will just

have to live with it. The will, we are looking to enter into

consultation with them. We have to put forward the questions of what

we will do as regards currency, as regards defence. Sorry up to

interrupt. This is not what you can do, but what you will hope to

achieve through negotiation, which is the fundamentally different

question. No, I think the people of Scotland have shown an polls have

supported that, that what the want to be sure is that independence

will deliver for them. They want to make sure that it all face the

economic challenges of the future. We have to spell it out to the

people of Scotland. It will take time and that is why it is

important we have the referendum by the autumn 2014. That is the first

reasonable period we can expect to engage with people and go through

the requisite procedure that is now What I am suggesting is that you,

in all good faith can say it when you go to the electorate that this

is what you will deliver. The point I am asking you to engage with is

that you will not get everything you want so the things you predict

you will deliver may have to be changed. After that you will come

back and whatever do you have done the rest of us will have to live

with, so it requires a leap of faith. It is exactly the same as

happens after every election. You lay out a manifesto and we had

shown the people of Scotland, which is why the were re-elected with a

majority government, because we deliver our manifesto commitments.

Of course there may be some matters that will have to be entered into

negotiations with Westminster but we enter into that in a spirit of

willingness and Corporation and it is accepted that that is how

Westminster would engage. It is in the interests of everyone to make

sure we had a seen as a matter as possible. Just to clarify your last

point. You are saying there are matters during the negotiation

process that you would take back to the people of Scotland and a

subsequent referendum? We want a referendum and we are asking the

people of Scotland at to give us the mandate to negate independence.

When you enter any negotiation, whether to the Government in the

Scottish Parliament with the Westminster Parliament on a guess

it in terms of independence, there are matters that will have to be

subject to negotiation. We go into this with the spirit of willingness

and we think the UK would do likewise. This is a matter that has

been seen elsewhere. Matters are dealt with seamlessly. OK, you were

here to talk about something else so if you just bear with us, we are

moving on to the conviction of a man last week for stabbing a

teenager in Midlothian. It was a stark reminder of the human tragedy

of knife crime. But the latest Scottish Government figures show

that a pilot scheme in one of the worst effected areas has reduced

knife carrying by 33% since 2006. Christine Macleod takes a look at

what's contributed to this reduction, and asks what else

should be done to challenge the blade culture in some of our

communities. Knife crime is a problem that

continues to blight Scottish communities. That is why the

Scottish government has extended its knife crime campaign to North

Lanarkshire. This scheme offers activities, education and advice

and support to youth. It is designed to keep them off the

streets and away from night. It is called a diversionary approach.

lot of them just come in here so they get to know each other and it

means they will not go out and fight or whatever. Pit stops

violence I think. When they come in here they are all friends.

Scottish government has projects like these have contributed to

reducing knife crime. They say police stop-and-search and longer

sentences have also helped. Is the Government doing enough to tackle

knife crime? The main opposition at Holyrood say they are not. They are

calling for mandatory minimum sentences. They need to be a clear

message sent to people, not just that they will be hammered by the

courts and by the system if they use a knife but if they carry a

knife in circumstances where they might claim to be acting in self-

defence but where the consequences going to be that somebody get

killed or injured. They need to understand that that is not

acceptable and that will be hammered to pull stop we believe it

creates an expectation that any body caught carrying a knife will

go to jail. Within that would be a very significant deterrent to

people to do that. Calls are also being made to wait sentencing

council to ensure that those guilty of similar knife crime us get

punished so malaria. At present some get off more lightly than

others. We accept the idea of a sentencing council in Scotland.

Four justice to be seen to be working the public need to be

reassured that justices open, transparent and the sentence is

visible to them and they understand it and that offenders are

accountable for their actions. Guidelines should be produced that

allows offenders to understand and be accountable for their actions

and justice will be done and be seen to be done. Some impact --

some experts warn that the impact of diversionary schemes is limited.

These do not influence all life criminals. What is really needed is

more information on what motivates those who continue to commit crimes.

We need to create better information and data sources on

knife crime. We need to know more about who is carrying a knife and

who is using a knife and the situations in which knife carrying

happens. At the moment our data does not enable us to do that. As a

consequence we cannot tailor strategies to individuals and

communities. The fall in knife crime suggests that efforts to

tackle it are going in the right direction. Is the current approach

sophisticated enough to ensure that it keeps heading that way?

Back now to the Justice Secretary. Do you think we need a more

sophisticated approach? We are trying to get more accurate data

and that is why the violence reduction Unit and others are

working to make sure we can roll it out and find that the knife

offences that take place are all reported. That work is ongoing in

terms of co-operation between criminal justice and health boards

to make sure we have adequate data to work upon. We have far too many

tragedies that affect not just individual families but entire

communities. Things are heading in the right direction but there is a

long way to travel to change the culture that we have in Scotland,

not simply of knife crime in many areas but indeed of the alcohol

abuse that goes with it which has, as my predecessor indicated,

created a lethal cocktail. Do you accept that mandatory sentences

will act as a deterrent? Actually the average sentence in Scotland is

nine months for possession of a knife as so why you would want to

give them only six months seems strange. We are in a situation

where you are 50% more likely to get a conviction in Scotland and

south of the border and the sentence will be 75% longer. We

have a tough regime in Scotland. You can go to jail for up to four

years just for possessing a weapon. That possession of a knife is

therefore the court to use. We have record police numbers. We have

record numbers of stop-and-search. What they show is that less people

are carrying, thankfully, but still far too many and those who do, more

are getting caught and are going to prison for longer so it is working.

But we are still blighted by tragedies that have had

catastrophic effects. What about the role of a sentencing council?

Would it be your intention or expectation that a sentencing

council would allow for a predictability of sentences? What

would be their role and why have you not move more quickly on it?

was only passed in the last Parliament and we are entering into

discussion with the judiciary about how we implemented. It would not be

specific. It has always been agreed that they could deal with the

generalities of matters but it is up to the individual Sheriff Court

judge to deal with the particular individual at the time they imposed

the sentence. We now have vastly increased sentences under the SNP

government but we still retain the right for the individuals Seraph to

retain the right to decide what that sentence could be. You can get

four years for just possession of a knife. I would support any judge

who made that sentence because I have no doubt that it will prevent

another tragedy from occurring. We have tough laws but as your package

shows we have to change the culture, it is about a bear Cherie

activities and tackling a variety of cultural aspects in Scotland. We

are making progress. We have the lowest possession of offensive

weapons statistics for a decade. We still have a long way to go. Given

the pilot projects you have been running, I know you have extended

the man they are expensive, but do you think this is money that could

be picked up from the prevented a budget? I think so. That is why my

work across portfolios in the Scottish government. It is about

education, health, all of us pulling together to make Scotland

safer. It is about a flaws but also without providing diversionary

matters. Thank you very much. Human trafficking, the modern

equivalent of the slave trade, is increasing across Europe according

to the latest research. An inquiry into the situation here in Scotland

led by the QC Helena Kennedy found victims throughout the country. Men

women and children, not just in the sex industry, but forced labour in

hotels, in restaurants, farms and domestic homes. Baroness Kennedy

wants Scotland to break new ground with a zero tolerance approach. MPs

at Westminster discuss her findings next week. Here's Hayley Jarvis.

The true extent of human trafficking in Scotland is not

known. Latest figures show 74 people, including 19 children, are

suspected of being trafficked in the last three years but it could

be just the tip of an iceberg. The majority come from Nigeria, China

and Brazil. Most arrive by England because it appears more people are

being trafficked directly into this country. There has been only one

prosecution in Scotland for trafficking, compared to more than

150 in England and Wales. An inquiry into the equality and human

rights commission has called for new legislation in Scotland to

allow more convictions. It is a human rights abuse and criminal law

should come into play. The primary agency to deal with it should be

the police. It should not be the immigration services. Human

trafficking is often complicated by this confusion that it somehow is

an meshed in emigration. While there are often implications of

having come illegally into the country, it is really about crime.

The Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency admit to gaps in their

intelligence when it comes to trafficking. It is difficult to get

a handle on the problem. One of the things that we struggle to do is to

find the scale of the problem. Partly that is because getting

intelligence, information and knowledge of how much human

trafficking exists in Scotland can be quite problematic. Sometimes

that is because some of the victims involved do not particularly want

to identify themselves as victims because they may have some kind of

immigration status issue attached to them. The Scottish government

says it is considering the findings but it is encouraging all agencies

to work together to tackle the problem. MPs are due to discuss the

report at Westminster. Scotland has had a look at it and come up with a

proposal for new legislation. We should not rely on old laws. We

should bring together all the experience we have had in dealing

with human trafficking. It is -- if it is good for Scotland it will be

good for all of the UK. This play it draws on the experiences of a

young woman traffic to Scotland but in reality the victims are often

reluctant to tell their stories. The report heard from 10 women

traffic for sexual expectation and gave accounts of threats, beatings

and been tricked by members of their own families. Scotland could

lead the way in a preventing human trafficking and preventing more

women suffering the same fate. Here with me is the head of the

Human Trafficking Foundation, Ann Hamilton.

What do you think the members of public are not getting? There is a

misunderstanding about what trafficking is. There is a view

which is about foreign women being kidnapped and dragged across

borders and then being exploited, that they have no passports, no

money and they are beaten up etc. Actually it is much more subtle

than that. People are duped. They are brought here not just from

across other countries but from within the country. They get moved

around and exploited. There is a fundamental misunderstanding about

what trafficking is. It has three elements, the control, the

recruitment, the transporting. Then the means can be deception or debt

all force and then we have the exploitation which can be sexual

exploitation but it can also be labour exploitation. We really have

not fully understood that. There had a it always in where do people

who have been exploited end up? They can be exploited within a

family and the exploited as a domestic worker. It does not have

to be organised crime they get involved in it. It could be a very

small organisation -- operation. It is one of the myths that it is just

about huge organised crime operations. It can be much, much

smaller than that. A to be quite clear, we are not talking about

people not being paid the going rate for the work they are doing,

this is a broader front thing. is very different. It is not about

not being paid the minimum wage. It is about control, deception, debt,

yes. Baroness Kennedy said that when we put together and multi-

statutory response to this, she was heading towards a zero tolerance

situation in Scotland. She wants to shift the emphasis from immigration

to crime. That is absolutely right. It is not an immigration issue.

There are immigration issues involved in the crime but that is

not the primary element. Does it stop people coming forward? It does.

People are frightened. They are very stigmatised. They are ashamed

of what they have been involved in. They feel complicit in what they

have been involved in. It is very difficult to come forward for

assistance. That is what makes it infuriating for police and others,

they feel that victims are not prepared to tell them their story

but the reason for that is that they are quite often treated as

criminals themselves. They are frightened and stigmatised.

would seem to a lot of people watching that what could they do

about it even if they could identify it. The problems are

difficult to identify so what would you encourage people to do if they

have any suspicions at all? major thing is for the Government

to show leadership on this. They should start an Inter agency

working at a Scottish level. We do not have that. We do not have

organisations meeting at the moment to talk about the issues. In terms

of individuals we have to look at the demand for sexual services. Why

are men in Scotland still looking to buy sex? Is that part of a

modern society? Is that something we wanted to have? Why are people

still wanting cheap goods, cheap produce, cheap labour within the

household? It is about the demand that creates the the whole problem.

There is plenty of claim and counterclaim in the independence

debate. But can science cut through the arguments and get us closer to

the likely outcome? An international study has been

looking for the parts of Europe most likely to become independent

nations. The researchers from Spain, France

and the United States used economic and genetic data to find which

countries were most stable - and those most likely to break up. So

where does Scotland stand? Our science correspondent Kenneth

Macdonald can reveal all. This is what Europe looks like - a

patchwork of nations. Some of these are fairly new, especially those

which have broken away from others and got independence. But this is

also what Europe looks like - at a mathematical model. It has

identified which nations and the most and least stable. It is the

you result of work in France, Madrid and the United States.

we were trying to do is take this research one step further and try

and build a model which allows us to quantify the incentives for

regions to either seek independence or unite. Much of the original data

was from the original Yugoslavia, where predictions were that the

country would indeed break-up, which is what happened. We find

that first the public want to leave it, such as Slovenia and Croatia

and then we find Montenegro did not want to leave. But what did a model

tell us about our likely future? It said the country's most likely to

break away in Europe where the Basque country's and Scotland. Is

it inevitable? There is a difference, Slovenia had a much

richer economy than parts of Yugoslavia, whereas Scotland and

England are much closer. When I say the Basque country are a top

candidates, then it turns out that Scotland is not far behind. It

means this column was a little bit richer run a little bit bigger, it

may well ought to do that. 1 the number to suggest is something that

sounds suspiciously like Deval next. It is maybe a situation whereby

they get extra powers as opposed to going completely independent.

Looking at countries most likely to mere words, the top of the last

where Switzerland and Austria. If Britain were to merge with any

other country, the country it is most likely to merge with would

actually be France. There is a long love-the relationship for many

centuries, but that is the country, if they were to merge, that they

would be most likely to call with. It also said the merger between

Britain and Germany was possible. There is of course across the it.

These calculations do not attempt to predict the future. First column,

there lies not in equations but in kvingleer politiker ee de danske

drama Bowen ogde kvinglee politiker ee scotlands politik.

Ok een er ficktion men ikke lang Bit as good is the programme about

the power for women, who is also quite humane. I think that spoke to

us. It did talk about some of the compromises you have to make. I

think many women will recognise that you sometimes have to cut

corners, similar because you have so many different jobs you have to

do at the one time. If you go into politics, you have to have the

thick skin. With the access to technology nowadays, people can

make immediate comments about you. We have not broken through about

the double standards the women face It really does capture politics and

the row. It also captures aspects of coalition politics. You have to

be assertive and confident. You are surrounded by lots of very strong

people. Now that I am out of politics, I have discovered these

things called weekends which everybody else had, which I can now

husband felt less masculine when his wall changed. When he was

running the household, he was desperate to get back to the status

he used to have any a work environment. But for most parents,

it should not be an either or. We should both be playing an important

part in our children pause Mark upbringing. There are cultural

shifts needed. Often, someone can do something on your behalf. The

point is that you want to do these things yourself. You want to go to

the school concert and want to go to that parents' night. The numbers

and the parliament is that the parliament has made more efforts to

make things more female-friendly compared to local councils. Local

councils a lot of the evening meetings and things like that.

Nicola Sturgeon and others have watched Borgen and it would be and

they ought not to see how women across the world in politics cope

with depression and strains of that and family life. There are times

when you do not feel as confident as you Wanstead and you have to put

forward the vineyard that shows outwardly you are coping well. But

you still have the stresses and strains of having a young family at

home. It is really important to have a supportive husband. I am

really lucky that he is here and be able to take a bit of a career

break to look after her son, Angus. But of course, once we get warm, he

is wanted to chat, because he has been with Angus all day, whereas I

am more keen to switch off. But I have to make sure right here for

We have two guests in the studio - the SNP MSP for the South of

Scotland, Joan McAlpine, and Dr Fiona Mackay, the Director of the

Graduate School of Social & Political Science at Edinburgh

University. His it tougher for Women in politics than men? I thing

get depends. I think we can sometimes talk too much about this.

We are not ever going to say women MSPs, who get a very big salary and

can afford to pay for other things, compared to other ski female

workers. I'm not is one Cabinet minister to meeting that he had

topped his kids than one Thursday night and they did not see that he

was going to see him for another four or five days because he was

going to Europe for a conference. So it obviously affects brain just

as much. But both jobs can be very demanding and in politics, you have

an obligation to the people who elected you, so there is a feeling

you cannot do enough for them. There are times when the family

simply asked to step back. You are dealing with the people who elected

you. You maybe also needing to liaise with party activists. But if

we look at the actual structures, is that the case that the structure

response to getting the best women in place or two women come forward

and it is the woman who can survive the structure that five? I think it

is the combination of the two. There was a big change to try and

alter the structure of the Scottish Parliament. As time goes by, if you

keep to the forefront the value of the life-work balance. I think what

made the television series so arresting is that it showed the

kind of compromises politicians have to make, both politically and

personally. It also shows that women, the costs are often greater

than they are for men, in general. In a we, the old-fashioned

relationship where the women was a warm looking after the children

will the husband was out walking. There are women who still enjoy the

role and that is the totally valid choice. You do not get the same

amount of tensions between a traditional relationship. Whereas,

if that is the relationship when the man is assuming their role,

like the academic husband at the TV programme, there are going to be

tensions, because that is not is something expected of the man. I

think it Birgitte Nyborg, they have an agreement that in five years'

time, he will get his tongue at his But it is that a pressure that if

you do not have a family, you simply hand over your entire life

to politics? Yes, a coup de a problem. But then again, I think it

goes with every career? A you treated differently because you

made that choice by you're male colleagues? I do not think so. I am

quite assertive about it. Things have to give. I do not of a social

life, but then again I have been a warm cooking meals for my daughter,

which is great. You have to put the children first. Does the has become

very self-selecting. If you look at the professions that people in the

Scottish Parliament have come from, they're the likes of a lot of

lawyers, medics, teachers. You do not see a lot of the likes of

farmers, artists or the like. Is there a certain role you have

previously fulfilled that helps when it goes to going to

Parliament? If you look at politics been a very greedy institution in

terms of it sucking your time, it is very excluding of the be the

work pooled by you would take all politicians from. It raises the

question of if you want to know what politics we want and what

politicians we want and what sort of leaves we want them to manage,

what is clear is that we do not allow politicians to have much of a

life. I would like to have some sort of hinterland, some sort of

experience that they do go home. That is why it is important for me

if the likes of, my daughter says she has a school Cont concert,

which is quite a regular thing because she plays music, have

important is it that people from other parties to say, I am out of

the door at a certain time. Is it very tribal and the respect? There

have not heard of kids being vilified for going to their

You have to be there for the Broda. You have to be there at 5 o'clock

at night. But most people do work until five. It is just because we

work longer hours the rest of the time that you might work well into

the night the rest of the time. What is interesting is that there

are all sorts of reasons you might want reforms for flexibility, no

one is talking about family friendly hours and if you increase

the sitting times of the parliament you are moving back on those

original things that had a sudden I've value if not a practical value.

Thank you very much from both of you. And now here's the lunchtime

news with Gillian Smart. Good Afternoon. The Rangers manager

Ally McCoist is welcoming the Scottish Football Association's

investigation into events at the club. Meanwhile, administrators are

examining information on the takeover and running of the side to

form a fuller picture of its finances. Rangers lost 1-0 to

Kilmarnock yesterday afternoon at a sold out Ibrox in their first game

since going into administration. The amount of clarity that comes

out in the whole issue is obviously vital to everybody, supporters, you

guys, employees and everybody. We want all the facts and figures and

everything, everything disclosed. I think it is the very least the

supporters and the staff deserve. The energy giant Exxon Mobil has

been fined �2.8 million for failing to report 33,000 tonnes of carbon

dioxide emissions at its ethylene plant in Mosmorran. The Scottish

Environmental Protection Agency issued the fine in 2010 and says

the penalty was a mandatory consequence of breaching the EU

Emmisions trading scheme. Its thought to be the biggest fine ever

for an environmental offence in the A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow,

A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow, here's Cat Cubie with the forecast.

Good afternoon. It was a chilly start this morning and the frost

will be slow to lift in some places. We will continue to the wintry snow

showers in the north. Some sunshine especially across the south and

east. It will stay chilly. Temperatures only reaching around

four Celsius. Overnight we will see a change with the front at pushing

in from the West. There will be outbreaks of rain across the

country and a strengthening wind. It will bring milder air.

That's all for now, our next bulletin is at 6.20pm. I'll hand

you back now to Isabel. Thanks Gillian. Now in a moment,

we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,

let's take a look back at the Week Rangers football club went into

administration with the tax liability being up to �75 million.

An inquiry will be held. The level is so high that it would be

completely unmanageable if we allow it to come to a conclusion.

report into the murder of a toddler by his mother says that social

workers should have acted sooner but concedes that she was devious.

A Aberdeen run of -- residents look at redevelopment plans and the

Designing architect from York once the architect -- public to fall in

love with his vision. The number of people out of work in

Scotland has risen. It is now a 0.6%. It is 8.4% of the rest of the

Finally, Edinburgh-born a comedian Robbie, a bet that -- Ronnie

Corbett was awarded a CBE. So it looks like the two big

stories this week have revolved around negotiations, both on and

off the pitch. With me today we have two political

journalists, Angus Macleod from the Times, and Alex Massie from The

Spectator. Thank you very much for coming in.

Where do you think we have got to on the hold who says what on the

referendum and what they really mean and where it will end up?

has been fascinating and that is the perfectly safe. I have a

strange impression that now that all the Unionist parties are

groping towards a position somewhere on a line between the

Scotland Bill at one end and D Lomax and the other. Alastair

Darling's intervention is very significant. He is putting himself

somewhere on that line alongside David Cameron. One other thing

which is speculation, what is assuming more significance than

people David when it was launched what the Lib Dem Commission. I

think when it reports it will be interesting to see what it says.

Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg are both behind that report and they

are members of a group that is directing this Coalition. Could it

be, absolute speculation, but could it be that the Coalition will find

itself throwing his weight behind whatever that commission comes up

with? It is interesting because today the Lib Dems have issued an

offer to other parties to say it have a look at what we are coming

up with a we can all work of that sheep if you like? Is that a

potential way forwards? I think that line has gone to some extent.

We have moved to a situation where the question will be yes to

independence or no to independence to being one that maybe more

complicated. Will there be fiscal autonomy or real home rule? The Lib

Dems have a a Goldilocks -- Arie Goldie looks of the Unionist

parties. They are neither too hot nor too cold and they can Perhaps

persuade Labour and Conservatives are to meet in the middle. They may

offer a range of proposals. Those proposals will obviously have to be

clarified and spelt out at some point and that has to be spelt out

before there is a referendum and not after. Is it a point that they

cannot hold the line for much longer which says just trust us and

we will actually give you something? Will that still be

credible? If it is not he defines what the alternative proposals will

be? If you have three Unionist camps who will be playing to their

own bases? Who will do fine where to go? That is a great danger for

the Unionist camp that I can use that phrase. You might get three

different versions bouncing around. It is not credible. I think

commonsense and political sense will come into play the up. People

will realise that you cannot go into a referendum saying vote no

and you never know what you might get because if that is the case

then that vote becomes the real leap in the dark and not the vote

for yes. Do you agree with that? Entirely. There are questions that

have to be asked and answered by independence but at least everybody

has a decent notion of what independence might be like. It is a

relatively certain thing. At the moment from Mr Darling and Mr

Cameron and other senior members of the Unionist opposition we have a

complete lack of clarity and a complete lack of certainty. You

can't actually put it as a matter of faith or trust it has to have

real answers. We saw David Cameron saying something that Ruth Davidson

had not taken a position on and now Alistair Darling a thing he could

look at income tax powers and are not ruling out other powers and yet

we have not heard that from Johann Lamont. What is going on? Too much

has been made of this Ruth Davidson line in the sand. She make -- she

said it last August when she was still only a candidate in the

leadership election. It ignores a point about policy evolves in any

political party and especially if you have a stutter just like George

Osborne in your ranks when he is certainly beginning to drive the

policy of the Conservative Party in the whole constitutional argument

in Scotland in terms of labour --. In terms of labour it seems that

Johann Lamont will say something very important. What we are

watching for is not simply that she launches a Labour campaign to save

devolution but that she perhaps follows the Alistair Darling path

and set something out on this programme and in a Sunday newspaper.

If Alastair Darling is heading this up, could it 0.2 AC given a role

for him in the campaign and does it not highlight the fact that we have

not heard enough from people within Scotland? You could argue we have

had far too much from Labour in Scotland! On this particular issue

you could say there has been a welcome silence from Labour in

Scotland! The Labour Scottish leadership appears to be at best

tangential to the debate and probably utterly irrelevant. Yes,

Alastair Darling, Douglas Alexander, these are Labour's heavy hitters

but moving towards a greater range of powers, particularly on the

physical side of things in the Scottish Parliament, this is

something that the Conservatives should be backing as well. It fits

in with a jaw Tory principles of localism, accountability and the

need for Parliament to raise money as well as spend it. What will be

interesting is that we see an alliance between the Tories and the

SNP's. That argument did not wash with the grass roots. Do not forget

that Labour are crucial in this process simply because in any

referendum the Labour votes that they can deliver on one side in a

referendum could be the decisive factor. We are almost out of time.

Do you have anything to say about Rangers? It is a terrible shame.

Obviously it is a shock but it is one of these kind of inevitable

shocks. I do not understand how people can go around saying that

Celtic could survive without Rangers. I just do not see it. I

think is daydreaming. Do you have anything to say about Borgen.

terrific. Everybody should watch it. Could there be a Scottish version