26/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/02/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser present political news and debate, including former defence secretray Liam Fox in his first major television interview since leaving the cabinet.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

In his first major television interview since quitting the

:00:53.:00:58.

Cabinet, Liam Fox on why George Osborne should depend on Tory

:00:58.:01:01.

policies to grow the economy even if the Liberal Democrats do not

:01:01.:01:06.

like it. And that he does want to return to government. That is the

:01:06.:01:09.

Sunday interview. Could the Lords reform be the

:01:09.:01:14.

unlikely issue that cracks the Coalition? A Lib Dem at Lord and a

:01:14.:01:24.
:01:24.:01:26.

Tory backbencher go head-to-head. On Sunday Politics Scotland, the

:01:26.:01:30.

energy giant SSE says the constitutional uncertainty is a

:01:30.:01:35.

risk factor which may infect -- affect future prospects.

:01:35.:01:40.

Is any job better than no job? When will graduates get jobs are to

:01:40.:01:50.
:01:50.:01:50.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1853 seconds

:01:50.:32:43.

We are talking about learn -- a long-term fix. If you don't agree

:32:43.:32:48.

with the Coalition agreement, and you don't, your own manifesto said

:32:48.:32:57.

it was in favour. It was a democratic mandate. I couldn't

:32:57.:33:01.

hand-pick someone and agree with them about everything. I don't

:33:01.:33:05.

agree with every bit my party says either. When I was knocking on

:33:05.:33:09.

doors for the general election, I did not come across someone who

:33:09.:33:14.

said... Are they banging on the table and saying...? Are you saying

:33:14.:33:19.

we must have a changed constituency? It is another part of

:33:19.:33:27.

a democratic package falls --? have all been nominated by the

:33:27.:33:33.

parties. They probably already failed in government. That is the

:33:33.:33:39.

whole point of having proportional representation. We are in favour of

:33:39.:33:43.

openness where the people can decide. Someone like Philip who is

:33:43.:33:46.

known in Yorkshire would have a good chance of getting into the

:33:46.:33:53.

Lords. He is already elected. that case, you will be it fighting

:33:53.:33:58.

the election on the old boundaries. If the Tories do not deliver on

:33:58.:34:01.

towards reform, you think the Lib Dems will oppose the boundary

:34:01.:34:06.

changes? I think we will not be wanting to put that throw. A deal

:34:07.:34:15.

is a deal. And that means your Coalition is fractured. I take the

:34:15.:34:19.

debate on its merits rather than a petulant argument. You have been

:34:19.:34:28.

going on about Europe! You can never get away from it. If Philip

:34:28.:34:32.

and his friends persist with the is tactics, it will make it very

:34:33.:34:36.

difficult. We're here to implement the Coalition agreement and stick

:34:36.:34:40.

to it, but I'm afraid, we have to get on with it even if we don't

:34:40.:34:46.

like it. The Conservatives have to do the same. The House of Commons

:34:46.:34:56.
:34:56.:34:59.

is so partisan, that is the complaint. I don't think it will

:34:59.:35:04.

crack the Coalition, but he has just said that it could. The Lib

:35:04.:35:07.

Dems have 8% of the opinion polls. If they want to run away from the

:35:07.:35:12.

Coalition, we'll be happy to fight the general election. We have to

:35:12.:35:19.

leave it there. I enjoyed that. It is 12:35pm. You are watching the

:35:19.:35:24.

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up

:35:24.:35:27.

on the programme: This week we were trying, honestly,

:35:27.:35:31.

not to use the r word - Rangers or the referendum - but then

:35:31.:35:33.

Scotland's energy giant SSE, the country's second largest company,

:35:33.:35:35.

said the uncertainty about the constitutional future created

:35:35.:35:38.

certain risks and this would be a factor in deciding their future

:35:38.:35:48.
:35:48.:35:53.

35 % of Scottish Homes will be suffering from fuel poverty this

:35:53.:35:59.

year. It is a daily struggle for some. It is costing about �9 a day

:35:59.:36:05.

to heat the house. More if I put the panel heaters on in the bedroom.

:36:05.:36:11.

It is a struggle. Many recent graduates are taking jobs way below

:36:11.:36:15.

their skills level. They're off the unemployment register and earning

:36:15.:36:21.

cash, but will based get stuck in jobs they did not want? The issue

:36:21.:36:25.

that is important to remember about the unemployment situation, there

:36:25.:36:35.
:36:35.:36:42.

Over the last financial year the company will have spent almost �900

:36:42.:36:52.
:36:52.:36:53.

million in Scotland. It says its existing projects will go ahead as

:36:54.:36:56.

planned but future projects may have to have a risk premium, the

:36:57.:37:01.

cost of which will effect whether the investment goes ahead or not.

:37:01.:37:04.

Joining me now in Dundee, the SNP's Stewart Hosie, and with me in the

:37:04.:37:13.

studio, Labour's Tom Greatrex. Thank you very much for coming in.

:37:13.:37:19.

The principal that we can all agree is that companies attach a

:37:19.:37:24.

financial cost to risk so a risk premium has to be attached to an

:37:24.:37:31.

investment sometimes. Yes or no? That is correct. What SSE are

:37:31.:37:35.

saying is the development of their existing projects in Scotland will

:37:35.:37:39.

continue. It does mean that the additional uncertainty represents

:37:39.:37:44.

increased risk of which SSE will have no alternative but to take

:37:44.:37:48.

into account in making final decisions on those projects while

:37:48.:37:54.

that additional uncertainty remains. Here we have the present

:37:54.:37:59.

uncertainty potentially undermining future investment. What they report

:37:59.:38:04.

said in for is that they are not entering the constitutional debate.

:38:04.:38:08.

Their headquarters are remaining in Perth. They have also said they

:38:08.:38:12.

will not stop investing in Scotland, that is clear. As you just pointed

:38:12.:38:17.

out, the existing investments of �900 of this financial year will

:38:17.:38:20.

continue. They will take a commercial decision in the future.

:38:20.:38:25.

It is hypothetical. It will see what, if any, premium may have to

:38:25.:38:29.

be applied, but they are simply taking a look at what is happening.

:38:29.:38:33.

The other big that they said in their report was that we are

:38:33.:38:37.

looking at the common energy market across not just the UK, but the

:38:37.:38:40.

whole of the British Isles. That was an issue they were concerned

:38:40.:38:50.

about. The British Isles council agreed that that is important and

:38:50.:38:55.

is -- that is expected to continue. A lot of the so-called risk they

:38:55.:38:58.

might be talking about is a hypothetical and we will see if

:38:58.:39:02.

there is actually a real premium ever applied in the future. We are

:39:02.:39:06.

also talking about the risk of uncertainty about gone and's

:39:06.:39:12.

position within Europe. Europe has such an influence on regulation and

:39:12.:39:16.

the market. That is another level of risk. Do you accept that it is

:39:16.:39:21.

legitimate for them to say, look at the uncertainty. We have to put a

:39:21.:39:25.

price on this and that could affect future investments. They are

:39:25.:39:28.

entitled to make the response they have made, but in relation to

:39:28.:39:35.

Europe it is clear that when Scotland and England become

:39:35.:39:38.

successful states in the EU, there will be no change to the EU

:39:38.:39:42.

position whatsoever. Before we leave the element of uncertainty,

:39:43.:39:52.

they are making the point also that if the -- if there is a yes vote

:39:52.:39:56.

for independence, the uncertainty continues, but also they talk about

:39:56.:40:01.

in the negotiations. No issue, including the electricity and gas

:40:01.:40:04.

industry, would be looked at in isolation from the others. They are

:40:04.:40:09.

saying that if there is a yes vote post referendum, the rest continue

:40:09.:40:12.

its, whereas you may say that you while some divine what is happening

:40:12.:40:17.

in the energy market, once you tight into wider negotiations that

:40:17.:40:23.

risk and uncertainty remains. seem to be very focused on risk and

:40:23.:40:27.

uncertainty. A Yes vote in the referendum will be extremely

:40:27.:40:31.

certain indeed. Scotland would become an independent nation and

:40:31.:40:34.

have its own government and they will have all the rights and

:40:34.:40:38.

obligations and duties of the other normal independent countries. We

:40:38.:40:41.

will move on not just in relation to energy and electricity, but also

:40:41.:40:45.

the other matters that in normal Independent government would look

:40:45.:40:52.

after. Tom, it is a matter of fact that risk exists for SSE in the

:40:52.:40:55.

existing investments, for example a lack of clarity in the electricity

:40:55.:41:03.

market. Also, SSE have already, because of government policy in the

:41:03.:41:10.

south, had important project. For them, there are risks whatever they

:41:10.:41:16.

do. That is a fact of commercial life. It was not because of a

:41:16.:41:22.

change in policy, it was because it was found that it would not be

:41:22.:41:26.

economic to continue with it. The UK government said it was not a

:41:26.:41:30.

change in policy that drove that decision. What Stewart failed to

:41:30.:41:35.

point out and what SSE pointed out in their contribution is that at

:41:35.:41:38.

the moment, for renewable generation, there is a subsidy

:41:38.:41:42.

which exists which is paid across the bills of every consumer in

:41:42.:41:46.

Britain. In Scotland, we have less than 10 % of consumers. We have

:41:46.:41:51.

more than 30 % of renewable obligation payments. That is a

:41:51.:41:55.

great thing because of what that demonstrates is that where

:41:55.:41:59.

electricity can be generated in Scotland, we will pay together. In

:41:59.:42:03.

a separate Scotland, the question has not been answered as to what

:42:03.:42:08.

happens in terms of the subsidy. That support is needed. It is

:42:08.:42:12.

needed to generate the investment. Either the bills will go up, all

:42:12.:42:16.

the subsidy will be less and the investment will not happen. Given

:42:16.:42:21.

that Scotland has 25 % of Europe's offshore renewable capacity

:42:21.:42:26.

potential, it is a strange question to ask but why would be not have

:42:26.:42:30.

the money from the renewables obligation invested in the part of

:42:30.:42:35.

the world which can best generate the renewable electricity? What

:42:35.:42:39.

Stewart is missing here, and that he does not quite understand it, is

:42:39.:42:42.

that that subsidy allows that Investment and Development to

:42:42.:42:46.

happen. In a state where you have two separate countries, the rest of

:42:46.:42:50.

the UK it will not be paying that subsidy for that development in

:42:50.:42:56.

Scotland. If Scotland is paying for a... That is a point that has been

:42:56.:43:01.

raised. There will be a financial shortfall in terms of renewables.

:43:01.:43:04.

How will that be met if all the money coming out of the South no

:43:04.:43:12.

longer comes to Scotland? I'm and a loss to understand why money for

:43:12.:43:15.

renewable Investment would not be invested in an area of which has a

:43:15.:43:20.

huge amount of renewable potential. You cannot invest money in

:43:20.:43:25.

renewables where there are no renewables. You are saying that the

:43:25.:43:28.

factor of energy supply and demand would say that you have to come

:43:28.:43:34.

into Scotland if you want to do this sensibly. Let me ask you, Tom,

:43:34.:43:41.

as well about the increase cross- border in -- integration. British

:43:41.:43:46.

Irish councils have said this is something they wish to develop.

:43:46.:43:50.

That is the direction of travel. It would be counter-productive for

:43:50.:43:53.

south of the border not to do that. That has long been the direction of

:43:53.:43:58.

travel. There will be a lot of investment needed to make that

:43:58.:44:04.

happen. But we have a single energy market now. We have a need for

:44:04.:44:09.

upgrading infrastructure as well as new plants. That happens on a UK-

:44:09.:44:14.

wide basis. We all pay for that in our bills. That is either through

:44:14.:44:17.

the levy or through other investments through the charge is

:44:17.:44:20.

that the company made. That works because we have a bigger energy

:44:20.:44:25.

market, 27 million households about pay that across Britain. If in a

:44:25.:44:30.

separate Scotland, how would that work? That is a question that the

:44:30.:44:34.

SNP have been unable to answer and that is key to the uncertainty that

:44:34.:44:39.

SSE are concerned about. The grid will be maintained. There is a

:44:39.:44:43.

common electricity market, it is not just in the island of Britain,

:44:43.:44:47.

it is across the entire British Isles. The point that the British

:44:47.:44:52.

Irish Council want this is important. A single common market

:44:52.:44:57.

in energy across the islands is something that we have, and

:44:57.:45:01.

something we intend to keep. When I hear Tom's comments, it is the

:45:01.:45:05.

worst scaremongering. The lights will not go out, the power grids

:45:05.:45:09.

will not be torn down, there will still be a pan British island's

:45:09.:45:19.
:45:19.:45:19.

electricity market. Still it should ask himself why would they want to

:45:19.:45:25.

invest in Scotland? Two reasons: Firstly because of the potential

:45:25.:45:29.

for renewables in Scotland, and second because the support regime

:45:29.:45:34.

that exists and is paid for through Britain making sure that the

:45:34.:45:37.

investments happened. Renewable energy is capital intensive, you

:45:37.:45:42.

need that money up front. The SNP have not answered how they would do

:45:42.:45:47.

that in separate Scotland. We have to leave it there, thank you.

:45:47.:45:52.

Stewart, you are going to stay with us for your views on other issues

:45:52.:45:55.

we are looking at this morning. Going off at a tangent now in the

:45:55.:45:58.

energy issue, Donald Trump has told this programme he would be honoured

:45:58.:46:01.

to give evidence to a Scottish parliament energy committee if

:46:01.:46:04.

invited. He's accused the First Minister of being hell bent on

:46:04.:46:07.

destroying Scotland coastline with offshore turbines. There are plans

:46:07.:46:11.

for 11 in the sea off the Menie estate where Mr Trump has built a

:46:11.:46:13.

golf course, a situation he describes as a personal betrayal.

:46:13.:46:19.

Court action he says could delay the project for years.

:46:19.:46:23.

I have been told by our attorney's and lawyer's that we can bring a

:46:23.:46:29.

very large lawsuit and probably win it based on the harm that these

:46:29.:46:33.

horrible things would do to Scotland. I had been told we have a

:46:33.:46:37.

very good law suit and we can delay it for years to come. I feel

:46:37.:46:41.

betrayed because obviously all you have to do is check the newspapers

:46:41.:46:46.

and I think the word in terms of how I feel is betrayed, because he

:46:46.:46:50.

would have thought this would happen? I had a very good

:46:50.:46:55.

relationship with Alex Salmond and I like him, but I cannot let

:46:55.:47:05.
:47:05.:47:06.

Stewart Hosie, just in response to a couple of these things. Do you

:47:06.:47:10.

think this legal threat has any traction at all? I have absolutely

:47:10.:47:14.

no idea. I would probably doubt it, given that there is no decision

:47:14.:47:20.

made on the deployment facility of the Menie Estate. That decision

:47:20.:47:24.

will be taken into cause. I am sure it will be taken properly. The key

:47:24.:47:30.

thing to remember here is that this facility is a test facility. It is

:47:30.:47:34.

11 turbines, I think about three- and-a-half kilometres off the coast.

:47:34.:47:41.

It is not a full-scale wind turbine array, but a relatively small test

:47:41.:47:50.

facility. But what you think about Donald Trump's general tone. There

:47:50.:47:54.

was concern about the lack of respect shown to the office of the

:47:54.:47:58.

First Minister in some of his comments. I am sure he will say the

:47:58.:48:02.

things that he wants to say. The original Trump development went

:48:03.:48:06.

through the planning process and the Scottish Parliament committee

:48:06.:48:11.

agreed that have been done properly. There will now be a test the city

:48:11.:48:14.

offshore. Again, the prices will be followed her properly. If Donald

:48:14.:48:18.

Trump is not happy, I am sure he will do whatever he feels is

:48:18.:48:24.

necessary but so long as the planning process let -- prisoners

:48:24.:48:28.

is done absolutely scrupulously, as I am sure it will become I'm not

:48:28.:48:32.

sure where Mr Trump will go with it. Let's look at the new Scottish Sun

:48:32.:48:37.

on Sunday. It is at today. It says it has a world exclusive, day of

:48:37.:48:43.

destiny, Saturday the ANC of October 2014 they have revealed as

:48:43.:48:47.

the day for Scotland's historic independence vote. Is that the

:48:47.:48:53.

date? It is certainly a possibility. 18th October is certainly the

:48:53.:48:58.

autumn of 2014. It is a Saturday and not a Thursday and that is one

:48:58.:49:00.

of the areas the Scottish Government is consulting on. But

:49:00.:49:04.

the consultation has not finished and it would be wrong of anyone to

:49:04.:49:07.

prejudge the date for that might be concluded from the consultation.

:49:07.:49:14.

Would it be wrong of any of the SNP Government to have this announced

:49:14.:49:16.

in our Rupert Murdoch's papers before they told parliament the

:49:16.:49:21.

formal date? I had a quick look at it this morning and they cannot

:49:21.:49:24.

actually find a ministerial great. I am not quite sure where they have

:49:24.:49:29.

got the story from. But I am asking you about the principle. Just in

:49:29.:49:35.

principle. For to tell a newspaper rather than Parliament. I am all in

:49:35.:49:40.

favour of important announcements being made to Parliament, by the

:49:40.:49:42.

Scottish Parliament or Westminster, to parliamentarians before they are

:49:43.:49:51.

leaked. Tom Greatrex, what you think? I wonder if this came out of

:49:51.:49:55.

a conversation Alex Salmond and Rupert Murdoch had last week. But

:49:55.:50:00.

when this happens, it will be a matter for everyone who happens --

:50:00.:50:07.

he lives in Scotland. I think we should get on and get this sorted

:50:07.:50:13.

out so we have the referendum as soon as possible.

:50:13.:50:16.

Growing numbers of people are worried they cannot afford their

:50:16.:50:20.

next fuel bill. One in two says it will put a strain on their finances

:50:20.:50:25.

this year, according to Citizens Advice Scotland. The Government's

:50:25.:50:31.

own figures show 35 % of households are in fuel poverty, which is when

:50:31.:50:35.

you spend more than 10% of your disposable income on energy costs.

:50:35.:50:45.
:50:45.:50:52.

In at the Western Isles it is This is the bathroom. We have done

:50:52.:50:55.

about nine coats of paint and it is a bathroom paint and it is still

:50:55.:50:59.

coming through. This is the mould on the back of the wardrobe after

:50:59.:51:04.

about a year. Does the smell. It is kind of embarrassing. You can smell

:51:04.:51:12.

it off his close. Their breathing, their skin. It is costing about �9

:51:12.:51:15.

a day to heat the house and more if I put the panel heaters on in the

:51:15.:51:25.
:51:25.:51:26.

bedroom. I cannot really take my kids out because I cannot afford to.

:51:26.:51:29.

Stacey and her family live in rural East Lothian and spend around 40%

:51:29.:51:34.

of their total income on fuel. Today she is being shown how to use

:51:34.:51:39.

her heating system more effectively to help her cut down her bail.

:51:39.:51:43.

situations like this where it is an off gas area, there is any electric

:51:43.:51:48.

heating in this property, it can be a challenge to find the balance

:51:48.:51:53.

between the warm home and high bills. Scottish Power is the only

:51:53.:51:58.

electricity provider in the area so Stacey is unable to shop around for

:51:58.:52:03.

another supplier. Just before Christmas, the six-speed energy

:52:03.:52:09.

providers in Scotland increased their prices by about 20%.

:52:09.:52:11.

Government, Ofgem and the Scottish Government will need to challenge

:52:12.:52:15.

the six big energy companies to get a better deal for customers.

:52:15.:52:20.

Airdrie, the community has put on a fuel poverty road show to provide

:52:20.:52:26.

advice to locals. I am quite worried about it. I have been

:52:26.:52:31.

turning way he does down, turning my thermostat down. It is the same

:52:31.:52:36.

fuel, so why can't they give the same price? To his by spending two

:52:36.:52:43.

Haugen thief the �1,000 on a school poverty and the Scottish Government

:52:43.:52:48.

is struggling to reach its target of eradicating fuel poverty in the

:52:48.:52:53.

next few years. -- a quarter of a billion pounds. If we can

:52:53.:52:56.

incentivise and health and people to improve their standards of

:52:56.:53:01.

insulation in the Rhone homes... But clearly if the prices keep

:53:01.:53:09.

getting jacked up by a these amounts it becomes a moving target.

:53:09.:53:13.

Your hands were blue. There was no feeling in your feet. And the

:53:13.:53:18.

breath that was coming out of your mouth. It was just like steam.

:53:18.:53:23.

Until a few weeks ago Margaret's house was not connected to gas. She

:53:23.:53:27.

did not just the offers from the energy companies and turned to the

:53:27.:53:33.

Government for help. I have been trying for over two years all the

:53:33.:53:37.

different Government schemes. It is just a case of, we have not got

:53:37.:53:41.

enough funds available. In a new report, the Scottish Parliament's

:53:41.:53:47.

Economy Committee is a -- considering one stop approached to

:53:47.:53:52.

tackle fuel poverty. There is a great deal of confusion about who

:53:52.:53:56.

might be eligible for these schemes and who might be eligible. Margaret

:53:56.:54:01.

has now received a grant from one of the big energy companies and has

:54:01.:54:05.

had her central heating installed. For Stacey and her family, living

:54:05.:54:11.

in an old house in a rural area with no access to gas gives her

:54:11.:54:15.

little choice but to keep turning up the heat.

:54:15.:54:21.

With me now, Trisha McAuley, the deputy director of Consumer Focus

:54:21.:54:28.

Scotland and the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie. In

:54:28.:54:32.

one of their reports you said energy companies have money to

:54:32.:54:35.

spend but they are not finding people to spend it on. Is that

:54:35.:54:39.

still the case? Yes, there are a lot of people throughout Scotland

:54:39.:54:43.

are eligible for money from social programmes, environmental

:54:43.:54:49.

programmes, and people particularly who are very fuel poor and the

:54:49.:54:53.

energy company are saying they are having trouble finding these people.

:54:53.:54:58.

So there is a lot more they can do to reach out to put it ages is

:54:59.:55:03.

worked together we could do a lot more to help people. So in the

:55:03.:55:08.

South where the Government says it is up to be able to get in touch,

:55:08.:55:14.

he is that the rank and disease? Yes. People do not just the

:55:15.:55:19.

companies so they are not willing to take the risk. We definitely

:55:19.:55:22.

believe the energy companies should not be sitting back at going out

:55:22.:55:27.

there to find people, being much more active. Patrick, a free repair

:55:27.:55:35.

the political situation, -- if we look at the political situation,

:55:35.:55:40.

the Government in Scotland is saying that the fuel poverty budget

:55:40.:55:47.

will rise by 16 % next year followed by a force of 3% in 2014-

:55:47.:55:52.

2015. But it also has a warm homes fund. Using everything that can be

:55:52.:55:57.

done is being done? Now, not at all. The budget will go up a bit this

:55:57.:56:01.

year but that is only reversing part of last year's cut and so even

:56:02.:56:05.

after that increase we will be spending less on fuel poverty and

:56:05.:56:09.

energy efficiency than we were a few years ago. I was looking back

:56:10.:56:13.

yesterday after I gutters call to invite me on to the programme at

:56:13.:56:16.

the discretion in the Scottish Parliament way back ten years ago

:56:16.:56:19.

in the first session when the target date to eradicate fuel

:56:19.:56:23.

poverty was set and even then people were saying, 15 years, that

:56:23.:56:28.

is a really challenging timescale. 13 % of households in fuel poverty.

:56:28.:56:32.

Where they cause of a million households. Now here we are with

:56:32.:56:35.

four years to go before the target date is reached and we have

:56:35.:56:39.

something like 30% of households in fuel poverty. The best part of a

:56:39.:56:45.

million. We have less than four years to go before we reach that

:56:45.:56:49.

date and will further away from the target by far than we were when the

:56:49.:56:53.

target was set in 2002. So I understand why some of the measures

:56:53.:56:57.

that were put forward were put forward but we are still at this

:56:57.:57:01.

point of having a proliferation of different schemes and did all

:57:01.:57:03.

adding up to a pot that is dramatically less than we need to

:57:03.:57:09.

be spending. When we look at how money is raised for this and the

:57:09.:57:13.

social tariff which goes on to bills, is it time we said that the

:57:13.:57:16.

social tariff is now starting to cost people who cannot afford to

:57:16.:57:20.

pay and let's look at other ways of raising cash for this. What do you

:57:20.:57:24.

think about alternative ways of raising money? The DIS very

:57:24.:57:28.

difficult. The Government, the Scottish Government, has to

:57:28.:57:32.

definitely find more money and lever in funds from the private

:57:32.:57:37.

sector and from energy companies. They called all do a lot more. But

:57:37.:57:44.

the one thing that the Government should be able to do is use it as a

:57:44.:57:48.

preventive spend so for example, there is no strategic influence

:57:48.:57:51.

within the Scottish Government to say, well, we have not got a lot of

:57:51.:57:56.

money, let next -- let's make best use of it and integrate funding for

:57:56.:58:00.

fuel poverty into our health budgets, into existing funding

:58:00.:58:06.

streams in local government, social work departments as well. Patrick,

:58:06.:58:10.

what you think about the current ways of raising money, leading on

:58:10.:58:15.

from what Trisha it said. Do you think that this tariff is

:58:16.:58:20.

necessarily the only way we should be looking at helping people who

:58:20.:58:24.

cannot afford to pay. He it is not the only way to do it. On one level

:58:24.:58:33.

I find it frustrating that people think the level of public funding

:58:33.:58:37.

is a problem, there is no problem putting billions of pounds into

:58:37.:58:41.

building projects. I would like to see councils in Scotland setting up

:58:41.:58:45.

their own energy companies, publicly owned, not just to invest

:58:45.:58:49.

in renewables, and they can do that by borrowing, which they end pay

:58:49.:58:52.

back from the Revenue that renewable energy generates for them,

:58:52.:58:58.

but also by bulk-buying the electricity market. That might be

:58:58.:59:03.

in social housing projects and housing associations. Ultimately,

:59:03.:59:06.

it could be much more widespread because what is happening to the

:59:06.:59:09.

electricity market is about encouraging small new retailers to

:59:09.:59:14.

come on. Local councils could be doing that. Let's look to some of

:59:14.:59:17.

the northern European nations that Alex Salmond constantly compares to

:59:17.:59:21.

an look at what they are already doing. We can empower local

:59:21.:59:24.

Government to do this even now with existing powers we have in Scotland.

:59:24.:59:31.

There is no reason at all we should not start doing that now. Thank you.

:59:31.:59:34.

Thousands of our brightest young men and women are working in jobs

:59:34.:59:38.

are below their abilities. The experiences of the so-called under-

:59:38.:59:41.

employed have been reviewed by Strathclyde University. Student

:59:41.:59:46.

leaders warned that this group may lose out even in an economic upturn,

:59:46.:59:50.

if employers prefer a more recent graduates, so are we creating a

:59:50.:59:55.

lost generation? For our newest crop of graduates,

:59:55.:59:59.

the old assumptions are unreliable. A degree no longer guarantees a job,

:59:59.:00:04.

far less the one they had hoped for, and increasing numbers are under-

:00:04.:00:08.

employed, in other words, in drops significantly below their skills at.

:00:08.:00:13.

It has been three years since I graduated and I expected to work

:00:13.:00:17.

jobs I did not want to do for a while before finding a job that was

:00:17.:00:20.

part of a career but the wait has been longer than I expected.

:00:20.:00:25.

Everybody my own age is working in offices tamping or answering

:00:25.:00:35.
:00:35.:00:40.

A lot of employers are looking to see that candidates are prepared to

:00:40.:00:43.

roll their sleeves up and do what ever is required in order to earn

:00:43.:00:53.

money. Eilat of us like to see candidates going out and putting a

:00:53.:00:57.

chef been, that is a very good thing to do. But opinions are

:00:57.:01:04.

divided on this. University macro - - the Strathclyde University have

:01:04.:01:09.

said that after graduating, a third of graduates will not be using

:01:09.:01:13.

skills that they have learned. Three years later, 20 % of them

:01:13.:01:19.

will be in the same position. is a big impact on those people who

:01:19.:01:23.

have come through university in terms of their personal experiences,

:01:23.:01:26.

they are not getting the most from their degree. We are worried about

:01:26.:01:31.

the knock-on impact that has on those who are taking jobs away from

:01:31.:01:36.

people who are otherwise -- would otherwise be taking them. There is

:01:36.:01:39.

a real knock-on effect on people who do not have such high

:01:39.:01:42.

qualifications. With every graduation ceremony, the numbers

:01:42.:01:50.

are stacking up. Been employed, or finding jobs, they are stacking up

:01:50.:01:54.

on each other. It depends on how long beak stacking on will go on

:01:54.:02:00.

for. What we require to clear this pile of graduates, it is going to

:02:00.:02:06.

be a high rate of economic growth. I think it would be dishonest to

:02:06.:02:14.

say that this is something I believe is going to happen soon.

:02:14.:02:19.

According to the research, students with post grad qualifications their

:02:19.:02:27.

best in the market, but that is out for many.

:02:28.:02:30.

With me is the new Minister for Youth Employment, the MSP Angela

:02:31.:02:36.

Constance. Let's pick up that first point

:02:36.:02:41.

about postgraduate funding. Your government has an emphasis on that

:02:41.:02:48.

16 to 19-year-olds. Do you think you should look at putting funding

:02:48.:02:54.

into post grad work because that is where the upfront fees are? It is

:02:54.:03:01.

very important to know whether his government does prioritise 16 to

:03:01.:03:07.

19-year-olds. One of the important points but was published a few

:03:08.:03:12.

weeks ago was that we do recognise that all -- not all young people

:03:12.:03:16.

are the same. Graduates do indeed have particular needs. The

:03:16.:03:21.

government is focused on economic recovery before it is essential

:03:21.:03:26.

that we do get graduates into graduate level employment otherwise

:03:26.:03:31.

we will see displacement in the labour market. But I don't think

:03:31.:03:34.

anyone would find anything contentious in that, that is a

:03:34.:03:42.

given. We need jobs in order to have... What do you practically do

:03:42.:03:46.

about things up to help them in the interim and of those jobs become

:03:46.:03:49.

available? Do you have a responsibility there, or should be

:03:49.:03:54.

graduates be on their own? We do have a responsibility to ensure

:03:54.:03:57.

that the young people get the best start to their working lives, that

:03:57.:04:02.

they get the right start in the first rung of the career ladder. In

:04:02.:04:08.

terms of supporting postgraduates, is this government that has access

:04:08.:04:14.

to loans and grants. Nonetheless the picture is mixed. Young

:04:14.:04:18.

Scottish graduates have actually -- are actually doing well to hold

:04:18.:04:22.

their own despite the very difficult economic climate. For

:04:22.:04:27.

example, graduates from Scottish universities are far less likely to

:04:27.:04:31.

be unemployment -- unemployed with it a year of leaving lunar boasted.

:04:31.:04:35.

The employment rate for young graduates between the ages of 20

:04:35.:04:43.

and 24 is 4% higher than the UK figure. Starting salaries is higher

:04:43.:04:50.

in Scotland as well. -- far higher. Two-thirds of graduates in

:04:50.:04:56.

employment are in graduate jobs. That figure is not currently at the

:04:56.:04:59.

pre-recession levels, but it is something we are focused on. We do

:04:59.:05:04.

need to get graduates into graduate level jobs. This is great for the

:05:04.:05:08.

graduates who got the jobs, but I am asking what the sake today who -

:05:08.:05:13.

- to someone who did a degree, worked very hard and has had three,

:05:13.:05:18.

four or five years in a job way below their skills level? It must

:05:18.:05:23.

be discouraging for them, people have done everything expected of

:05:23.:05:28.

them. As a government, we need to make sure that our young people

:05:28.:05:33.

remain encouraged and focused. But I think a positive destination

:05:33.:05:37.

figures for Scottish graduates are very encouraging. Again, highest in

:05:37.:05:44.

the UK, so in terms of... Nearly 89 % of Scots graduates continue their

:05:44.:05:49.

studies, go into work or do a combination. But do you see a

:05:49.:05:54.

particular value in postgraduate studies, especially at a time of

:05:54.:06:00.

economic downturn? You could argue it is cheaper. It has a value

:06:00.:06:04.

because you are building your skills and are used for to the

:06:04.:06:09.

economy when it picks up. Do you see his argument about the value of

:06:09.:06:14.

postgraduate study -- study? Absolutely. The longer young people

:06:14.:06:17.

continue their education, it does increase their long-term

:06:17.:06:22.

employability. But what is also crucial is that the university

:06:22.:06:26.

sector is already engaged with the key employers and that sort of work

:06:26.:06:32.

has to continue. It is far more common these days for

:06:32.:06:40.

professionally accredited teaching universities... The relevance of

:06:40.:06:46.

qualifications to the world of work is improving, I believe. Only last

:06:46.:06:50.

week there was an employer summit for all universities in Scotland

:06:50.:06:57.

where they met and that is very much about university sector doing

:06:57.:07:04.

their bit. It is stepping up to the plate to ensure that we get back to

:07:04.:07:08.

a rising youth unemployment. But if we stick with this and the

:07:08.:07:16.

employment issue because we are looking at that, is it your view

:07:16.:07:20.

that governments do not create jobs because we have heard from quite a

:07:20.:07:24.

lot of young students, that they won the economic circumstances

:07:24.:07:28.

created in which businesses can create jobs? Is there an

:07:28.:07:31.

improvement -- river improvement there? There is always room for

:07:31.:07:38.

improvement. Governments do not directly create jobs. It would not

:07:38.:07:48.
:07:48.:07:49.

be a surprise to you for me to say the Scottish government...

:07:49.:07:54.

Governments cannot do things to engage with employers and encourage

:07:54.:08:00.

and even in centre vice with the employment of young people. Thank

:08:00.:08:02.

you indeed. We have to leave it there.

:08:02.:08:05.

Following on from the minister there, we can now hear from the

:08:05.:08:08.

Scottish Conservative, Murdo Fraser, who is in our Dundee studio.

:08:08.:08:12.

Thank you for coming in. We are getting a lot of high value at a

:08:12.:08:19.

view today! Let me ask you about this issue of the stacking up of

:08:19.:08:22.

graduates and the possibility of a lost generation. The thing that is

:08:22.:08:28.

a real prospect? It is a serious issue. We have a major problem with

:08:28.:08:32.

youth unemployment. The statistics show that it is the area of the

:08:32.:08:37.

economy where there is the most concern. In terms of what God --

:08:37.:08:42.

the government can do, a number of things need to happen in the

:08:42.:08:45.

university sector itself. Many employers will say they have a

:08:45.:08:48.

challenge with some graduates, they do not have the soft skills that

:08:48.:08:52.

employers are looking for. There is much more that can be done in terms

:08:52.:08:59.

of improving their employability. How are soft skills defined? Sorry

:08:59.:09:05.

to interrupt. For example, how to fit in in a working environment,

:09:05.:09:08.

turning up on time, had to present yourself in the workplace, how to

:09:08.:09:14.

get on with your workmates. That is why work placements and internships

:09:14.:09:17.

are so important. A lot of good work is going on in our

:09:17.:09:20.

universities in terms of equipping students particularly towards the

:09:21.:09:26.

end of their courses in terms of making that transition from

:09:26.:09:31.

education to employment much more seamless. I think that sort of

:09:31.:09:34.

thing but many still encourage. In terms of direct government policy,

:09:34.:09:40.

a lot of graduates do a generalist degree like an arts and they might

:09:40.:09:46.

want to move into a more specialist field, going back to a further

:09:46.:09:51.

education college to do a short course, and what we have seen in

:09:51.:09:54.

the government budget that has been passed by Parliament is a cut of

:09:54.:09:59.

more than �50 million in the budget of our further education colleges.

:09:59.:10:03.

That is completely short-sighted in the current climate where you have

:10:03.:10:07.

got many graduates desperate to get these additional skills to get them

:10:07.:10:12.

into the workplace. Is it your argument that any job is better

:10:12.:10:17.

than no job even if it is way below your skills level was mad in the

:10:17.:10:21.

short term, yes. It was very interesting in the clip you showed

:10:21.:10:24.

with recruitment consultants, that is exactly the point they were

:10:24.:10:30.

making. If you are an employer, the last thing you want is to receive a

:10:30.:10:33.

c been formed someone who has been out of work since they graduated.

:10:33.:10:37.

You would rather have is a new graduate who has had to take in the

:10:37.:10:41.

short term a job below their expectations at a lower pay grade,

:10:41.:10:45.

perhaps even a part-time job, but that is better than not having any

:10:45.:10:49.

employment at all. And we are also joined now by the

:10:49.:10:51.

Scottish Labour Education spokesperson, Hugh Henry MSP, and

:10:51.:10:54.

Laurie Russell, the Chief Executive of the WiseGroup, an organisation

:10:54.:11:00.

which specialises in getting unemployed people back into work.

:11:00.:11:06.

This argument, take any job if you are a graduate, when we hear from

:11:06.:11:08.

Strathclyde there is some evidence that students can get trapped in

:11:08.:11:12.

jobs and there is a long term there with to the outcome, what would you

:11:12.:11:20.

say? -- long-term negative. There are implications for people further

:11:20.:11:26.

down the change. A lot of people come out of school without

:11:26.:11:29.

qualifications and we are working with them. They are looking for

:11:29.:11:32.

entry-level jobs so if graduates take those jobs, it makes it much

:11:32.:11:36.

more difficult for other people to get into work. What is the answer

:11:36.:11:42.

then? I think the answer is that if you go to revitalise the Scottish

:11:42.:11:46.

economy, we need graduates and we need them working in the jobs they

:11:46.:11:49.

are trained for. A lot of it comes down to pretty much more effort

:11:49.:11:53.

into getting graduates to set up their own businesses and to work

:11:53.:11:59.

together to set up their own businesses and to do more about

:12:00.:12:02.

entrepreneurship at further education and higher education

:12:02.:12:11.

levels. I know some is done, but more effort can go into that.

:12:11.:12:16.

point is the government cannot create jobs. Labour have said they

:12:16.:12:21.

have created jobs, but governments do not create jobs, do they?

:12:21.:12:24.

Governments can work with employers to help create the right

:12:24.:12:29.

environment. The problem is that we need to grow the economy. It is not

:12:29.:12:35.

enough just to put people into short-term courses and projects. We

:12:35.:12:40.

need a long-term future for them. We are of a generation that when we

:12:40.:12:43.

came out of university, it was a matter of choosing what you wanted

:12:43.:12:47.

to do, not been desperate to take what was on offer. There are things

:12:47.:12:50.

the government can do to work with the private sector to help young

:12:50.:12:56.

people flourish in an entrepreneurial way. There was a

:12:56.:13:02.

mention of incentives. Could you develop that? It could be, but you

:13:02.:13:05.

need to remember there is a direct consequence of what the Scottish

:13:05.:13:09.

government is doing. There are graduates working and displacing

:13:09.:13:15.

others, in jobs that they are over- qualified for. Alex Salmond that

:13:15.:13:21.

teaching numbers are out 54,000. Over the last few years, teaching

:13:21.:13:27.

numbers have been at 3,000. People cannot get jobs in these fields.

:13:27.:13:31.

Microbiologists are working in pharmacies, youngsters are working

:13:31.:13:34.

in fast food restaurants. We are displacing people across the market

:13:34.:13:40.

so we need to create the jobs. We can also build on the Scottish

:13:40.:13:49.

Enterprise Scheme of talent and helping for a short term goal.

:13:49.:13:53.

of the students week spoke to said they felt there was a status

:13:53.:13:58.

attitude and perception that had to be challenged, and that was that

:13:58.:14:05.

unless you went to university it somehow what you were doing a... It

:14:05.:14:10.

was the attitude of middle-class families. The students would have

:14:10.:14:15.

been better going into practical training. Do we need a big social

:14:15.:14:20.

shift in attitude about what people would be best done in? We probably

:14:20.:14:24.

do. We probably need to shifter by what we mean by jobs. I think any

:14:24.:14:31.

of us could go hour -- around our constituencies and do a lot through

:14:31.:14:36.

projects, environmental projects, communities. We were talking about

:14:36.:14:39.

developing our sports centre earlier. If you have a project like

:14:39.:14:42.

that, if you can work with the employers and construction

:14:42.:14:47.

companies and the funders to make sure that we are always building an

:14:47.:14:50.

opportunity for training for young people to get a chance in those

:14:50.:14:56.

projects, there are different ways that we can find jobs in the

:14:56.:15:02.

existing infrastructure. I think it is about a cultural change, about

:15:02.:15:07.

what we mean by jobs. But also you are right in some communities and

:15:07.:15:12.

families, there is a thing about getting a qualification. Let's

:15:12.:15:18.

remember that further education and higher education people are paid to

:15:18.:15:28.
:15:28.:15:32.

Murdo Fraser, do you think we need to be quite careful about how we

:15:32.:15:35.

assess the value of apprenticeships? And I am also

:15:35.:15:39.

thinking particularly of the work- experience programme that the

:15:39.:15:42.

coalition Government has put in place in the South which some

:15:42.:15:45.

employers are now saying they do not want anything to do with an

:15:45.:15:49.

campaigners are saying it is slave labour. Do we have to be careful

:15:49.:15:53.

about what is being and is actually of value to the young people taking

:15:53.:16:01.

part? Bear has been a vicious campaign run by far left elements

:16:01.:16:05.

to try to discredit this. But a lot of major companies have withdrawn

:16:05.:16:09.

from it because they agree. They have been scared off. The important

:16:09.:16:14.

statistic to know from the scheme Dan SATs he is that half of those

:16:14.:16:18.

that entered the scheme will end up in permanent employment. So this is

:16:18.:16:23.

delivering for 50% of those involved a permanent job by the end

:16:23.:16:27.

of it. I think that is an extremely worthwhile initiative for people

:16:27.:16:34.

who otherwise might be facing many more years of unemployment.

:16:34.:16:38.

work experience worth anything if you do not get a job at the end of

:16:38.:16:43.

it? They can be good quality work experience programmes that help

:16:43.:16:45.

young people, give MAC the, give them a reference and give them

:16:45.:16:50.

skills. What I think people are concerned about is that it is not a

:16:50.:16:55.

good quality scheme and it seems to be replacing full-time labour.

:16:55.:16:59.

thank you. Another of our series looking ahead

:16:59.:17:02.

to the key themes in the council elections. A few weeks ago we look

:17:02.:17:06.

at how Labour and the SNP was set to fight a battle for CRASBO but

:17:06.:17:11.

this week, different protagonists. The Conservatives and the Liberal

:17:11.:17:15.

Democrats have been in collision in the Borders for five years. How can

:17:15.:17:18.

they work together now and fight against each other for votes in a

:17:18.:17:28.
:17:28.:17:30.

In the Borders, there is much to commemorate the great battles of

:17:30.:17:40.
:17:40.:17:43.

But in the council now traditional adversaries have learnt to become

:17:43.:17:48.

colleagues. As with most councils, no one party has an overall

:17:48.:17:53.

majority and here, that has led to a situation that is almost

:17:53.:17:56.

Westminster in miniature, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats

:17:57.:18:05.

In the council chamber, things are finely balanced between three

:18:05.:18:09.

coalition partners. 12 Conservatives and 10 Liberal

:18:09.:18:12.

Democrats are joined by three independent councillors. They are

:18:12.:18:18.

very well deserved... Coalition was nothing new five years ago but what

:18:18.:18:24.

was new was the way the coalition came together. Until 2007, we had

:18:24.:18:27.

been independent and conservative. We have formed the administration

:18:27.:18:32.

of the council. In 2007, most of the independents were washed away,

:18:32.:18:37.

so more Liberals came in and a few more Conservatives. So we thought

:18:37.:18:41.

the pragmatic and right thing to do was to join up. They year or two

:18:41.:18:45.

after the election we got together to compare manifestos, to see if

:18:45.:18:50.

there was any common ground. Basically, within a couple of days,

:18:50.:18:53.

with followed up with a draft programme of work of what we would

:18:53.:18:58.

like to do in the next five years. We Conservatives do like to be

:18:58.:19:04.

pragmatic and practical and we like to do things we can actually do.

:19:04.:19:07.

The tough bit was agreeing with the others, particularly the Liberals,

:19:07.:19:12.

on what was do-able, because we do not like to say we are going to do

:19:12.:19:16.

a thing and then not do it. Once that was done, we have had a couple

:19:16.:19:20.

of spats but on the whole it has been pretty good. There was a point

:19:20.:19:23.

about 18 months ago when the Scottish Liberal Democrats, my grip,

:19:23.:19:32.

was within that of leading the commission. We considered that the

:19:32.:19:37.

programme of work we focus on with our constituents is the most

:19:37.:19:41.

important thing. Commissions always involve compromise and supporters

:19:41.:19:46.

of the party may feel they class is either half-full or half-empty but

:19:46.:19:49.

can the council elections, how well each of the two big parties in the

:19:49.:19:52.

coalition here manage to make distinct appeals to the local

:19:52.:19:57.

voters? We have brought rigorous financial management and we have

:19:57.:20:02.

simply got to think ahead. We have not just fought for this period of

:20:02.:20:06.

office. We have thought ahead. We have actually got capital, a

:20:06.:20:14.

financial plans going forward five years. We can only relate to the

:20:14.:20:17.

public in terms of the issues as we see them and the public are telling

:20:18.:20:25.

us. Principally, I would say that is economic development. However

:20:25.:20:27.

the numbers stack up after the election, it is unlike the one

:20:27.:20:32.

party alone will be able to spin its own Web. Labour have no

:20:32.:20:36.

councillors here just now but the SNP and independence will be

:20:36.:20:40.

fighting hard. And both coalition partners will be competing for

:20:40.:20:44.

every vote. But also hoping it will not be able to live moment

:20:44.:20:54.
:20:54.:20:56.

Jamie will be back with another piece on the council elections in a

:20:56.:21:03.

few weeks but now, the headlines. Good afternoon. It has been

:21:03.:21:07.

reported that the Scottish Government's preferred date for a

:21:07.:21:11.

referendum on independence is Saturday 18th October 2014. The

:21:11.:21:14.

claim is made in the first edition of the Scottish Sun to be published

:21:14.:21:18.

on a sunbed. Speaking to Sunday Politics: Earlier, Stewart Hosie

:21:18.:21:25.

said the date is being considered. It is certainly a possibility. 18th

:21:25.:21:31.

October is certainly in the autumn of 2014. It is a Saturday and not a

:21:31.:21:35.

Thursday and that is one of the areas that the Scottish Parliament

:21:35.:21:40.

is consulting on. Talks are continuing for the future

:21:40.:21:44.

of two emergency debates covering Scottish waters. They are currently

:21:44.:21:47.

operating on a temporary basis for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency.

:21:48.:21:51.

They were due to be withdrawn last year to save money.

:21:51.:21:54.

Labour Party members in Falkirk will meet this evening for the

:21:54.:21:58.

first time since their MP was charged with three counts of common

:21:58.:22:02.

assault. Eric Joyce was arrested following an incident in the House

:22:02.:22:06.

of Commons bar last week. Mr Joyce will not attend, because he is

:22:06.:22:10.

currently suspended from the party. Rugby and Scotland face a tough

:22:10.:22:12.

encounter against France in Six Nations at Murrayfield this

:22:12.:22:16.

afternoon. They are still looking for a victory in this year's

:22:16.:22:21.

Championship, despite decent performances against England and

:22:21.:22:23.

Wales, they lost their two opening games.

:22:23.:22:32.

We have a lot of cloud today, particularly for western Scotland

:22:32.:22:35.

where it will be quite a misty and murky afternoon with outbreaks of

:22:35.:22:42.

patchy rain, turning heavy for a time. Across central and eastern

:22:42.:22:48.

parts it will be brighter. In the North East, we will see our top

:22:48.:22:53.

temperature today of 12 Celsius. More typically nine or ten. So very

:22:53.:23:02.

much on the wild side for this time More from the newsroom at 6:10pm

:23:02.:23:04.

this evening. In a moment we will be discussing

:23:04.:23:09.

the bigger events coming up this week at Holyrood. First, let's take

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:19.

a look back at The Week In 60 A tweeting Rupert Murdoch suggests

:23:20.:23:27.

he supports independence for Scotland. He's tweet...

:23:27.:23:32.

Rangers' tax debt continues to rise and financial documents have been

:23:32.:23:36.

provided to Strathclyde Police. hope that their way will be found

:23:36.:23:40.

forward to allow it ranges to meet their obligations to the taxpayer.

:23:41.:23:44.

The Falkirk Labour MP Eric Joyce has been charged with assault

:23:44.:23:49.

following an incident at a bar in the House of Commons, and suspended

:23:49.:23:52.

from the Labour Party. The Royal Bank of Scotland has

:23:52.:23:58.

reported a pre-tax loss that is almost double the last it made in

:23:58.:24:04.

2010. Big losses, in a strange way, horror sign of success. It is a

:24:04.:24:07.

sign we're taking the medicine at RBS needs.

:24:07.:24:10.

A documentary showing Billy Connolly on tour in Northern

:24:10.:24:14.

Ireland at the height of the violence in 1975 has been screened

:24:14.:24:20.

at the Glasgow Film Festival this weekend.

:24:20.:24:24.

Spring conference time is fast approaching with both Scottish

:24:24.:24:33.

Labour and the Liberal Democrats holding theirs next week.

:24:33.:24:37.

And with me to look ahead we have the political commentator and

:24:37.:24:41.

author David Torrance and the editor of Holyrood Magazine in our

:24:41.:24:48.

Edinburgh studio. Before we go on to the conference season, what you

:24:48.:24:52.

make of the day of destiny prediction in the Scottish Sun?

:24:52.:24:57.

is a good scoop for a brand new Sunday newspaper. Of course the

:24:57.:25:00.

there are cabinets. The Scottish Government source says it is a date

:25:00.:25:06.

they are lining up, so it is just a possibility. It would not be on the

:25:06.:25:10.

front page go unless they have had a pretty firm steer from that

:25:10.:25:14.

source. Are you putting it in your diary, Mandy Rhodes? I made a

:25:14.:25:19.

decision this morning not to bite the newspaper at and I have been

:25:19.:25:22.

advising the Scottish Government for the same reasons that perhaps

:25:22.:25:26.

they should not have given any exclusive to the paper. But we will

:25:26.:25:33.

see. But is it appropriate, it is accurate, and not just a best guess,

:25:33.:25:36.

is it appropriate that this is given to renew his paper, which

:25:37.:25:40.

happens to be owned by Rupert Murdoch, rather than being told to

:25:40.:25:44.

Parliament? No, my reasons for not supporting the paper is that we

:25:44.:25:49.

seem to have forgotten quickly when the News of the World was faulty.

:25:49.:25:53.

Secondly, hundreds of journalists and other people lost their jobs.

:25:53.:25:56.

And there is an ongoing police investigation and the Leveson

:25:56.:26:01.

Inquiry. Mike view is that this is Mr Murdoch putting two fingers up

:26:01.:26:05.

at our sensibilities and intellect and I feel sad that the SNP

:26:05.:26:09.

Government felt they could first welcome his tweeting about

:26:09.:26:16.

supporting the SNP stands but also give him an exclusive. David, we

:26:16.:26:19.

have before Scotland meeting on Tuesday pensively Scotland meeting

:26:19.:26:24.

in Glasgow on Thursday. Everyone is talking about Devo Max,

:26:24.:26:28.

Independence Lite, independence, what you'd think will actually come

:26:28.:26:32.

out of what is coming this week? For all when you think we may get

:26:32.:26:35.

clarity in the different propositions, who is putting them

:26:35.:26:38.

forward and who they imagine will be able to enforce them if they are

:26:38.:26:44.

adopted? What we have here is a twin-track process. The Siddick

:26:44.:26:48.

Scotland exercise is geared towards, or the Scottish Government hopes it

:26:49.:26:53.

is geared towards Devo Max, which the Unionist Party considered to be

:26:53.:26:58.

independence by another name. The Ivo Plus option which I think is

:26:58.:27:02.

the more significant of the two he is quite fully developed. Reform

:27:02.:27:05.

Scotland have already set out precisely what they mean by Bath

:27:05.:27:11.

and they are now ready for a cross- party exercise to lend it more

:27:11.:27:15.

credibility. But importantly, I think that is the direction of

:27:15.:27:21.

travel, devolution plans, of the opposition parties. Mandy, we know

:27:21.:27:25.

that we have the spring conferences for Scottish Labour and the Lib

:27:25.:27:28.

Dems as welcoming up. What do you think will be the messages that

:27:28.:27:33.

have to come out, first of all, say, from Labour? For the onus is on

:27:33.:27:38.

Labour to start meeting the opposition fightback around the

:27:38.:27:41.

independence referendum. What I am saying in my column tomorrow is

:27:41.:27:47.

that I think the leader has adopted it to stand up and paint a picture

:27:47.:27:51.

of the vision they have fought Scotland. They have a lot to say

:27:51.:27:54.

about what they don't want about independence but we still have no

:27:54.:28:00.

clarity about what they would have. Their leader's position is probably

:28:00.:28:04.

not very far from the rest of Scotland. She is not an arts

:28:04.:28:10.

unionist, she wants more powers and she needs to articulate that.

:28:10.:28:14.

that has not happened with enough clarity? No, people are left

:28:14.:28:18.

wondering what is going to happen and even with devolution plus and

:28:18.:28:24.

the launch this week of that, as David says, Reform Scotland have

:28:25.:28:28.

beefed out their own proposals, been around for more than a year.

:28:28.:28:32.

Why haven't the opposition parties got behind that by now? For their

:28:32.:28:35.

bosses offer last week from Willie Rennie to say if Ming Campbell is

:28:35.:28:39.

looking at all is, why don't you see what we can come Upwood and we

:28:39.:28:42.

can look at that constructively? Do you think it's likely that the

:28:42.:28:48.

other opposition parties would say, yes, banks, we would love to do

:28:48.:28:56.

that. I interviewed Menzies Campbell and Johann Lamont are to

:28:56.:29:00.

discuss this. They have started to flesh out what they will do as a

:29:00.:29:04.

joint effort in the fight back against independence. So that is

:29:04.:29:10.

happening. We just needed you the details. Usage as there is a joint

:29:10.:29:13.

effort. The individual parties, and Renault are going to have to appeal

:29:13.:29:19.

to their own bases if they are going to turn out a no to

:29:19.:29:25.

independence? Yes, and what you will see in the weeks ahead with

:29:25.:29:29.

the party conferences is each party doing precisely that, setting out

:29:30.:29:33.

their constitutional pitch, or is the direction of travel and how

:29:33.:29:39.

they propose to bite the no campaign, an umbrella campaign will

:29:39.:29:44.

follow thereafter. I also understand that Labour are working

:29:44.:29:47.

towards it articulating their constitutional vision towards the

:29:47.:29:52.

end of this year, in the autumn. That is the risk that if people do

:29:52.:29:56.

not seem to... Obviously they need time to formulate what they're

:29:56.:30:02.

going to say. Is there any sense that these other parties are being

:30:02.:30:07.

cracked along, perhaps not the Lib Dems, dropped into a situation that

:30:07.:30:10.

their heart and soul is not really in? Will that be a problem for

:30:10.:30:20.

them? To an extent, DS. The Lib Dems have a consistent ideological

:30:20.:30:24.

manifesto of what they want. Be other two parties to some extent

:30:24.:30:29.

feel forced to say and do something. Although there are sections of

:30:29.:30:33.

Labour and the Conservatives who genuinely believe in more powers,

:30:33.:30:36.

others, such as Alistair Darling, feel compelled to offer something

:30:36.:30:42.

because they feel politically they have no choice. Mandy, juicing

:30:42.:30:47.

there will be no single leader for the Senate Independent's campaign?

:30:47.:30:51.

-- do you think? The problem will not be but there has to be.

:30:51.:30:55.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS