10/06/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Spain is heading

for a massive 100 billion euro bailout of its dodgy banks. But is

it big enough? As the Chancellor blames the Euro crisis for

Britain's economic woes, we'll get the view from the City. That's our

top story. When it comes to reforming our schools, who is the

true heir to Blair? Secretary of State Michael Gove or his Labour

counterpart, Stephen Twigg? The Shadow Education Secretary joins us

for the Sunday interview. And should the Government perform the

mother of all U-turns yet and give the go-ahead for a third runaway at

Heathrow? The two sides go head-to- head on airport expansion.

Here in Scotland, the number of people affected by the legionnaires

outbreak was expected to peak this weekend - we'll have the latest.

And the multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir

Tom Hunter on how to create a second Scottish enlightenment. All

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1586 seconds

Do we have enough of the big provincial towns? Frankfurt,

Germany is a country with strong environmental cues. It has played

down an area of the forest to create a new runway. It took five

years to get that decision, What what happened if we do not

have a new runway? Our economy is based on of the reach a mobile

society. You can think of London as an aircraft carrier where people

fly in, to their business, and fly out. The Thames estuary is that the

far eastern tip of England. There are areas like Reading, Swindon and

the rest of the country for which Heathrow is the nearest airport.

Let us get real. He has challenged the aviation industry to get real

about the facts. Business travel has declined as a result of

business confidence and all the rest. We know that passenger it

looting on the individual airlines has increased by 20%, said more

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up

on the programme. Classroom strikes are off for now, but teachers'

unions insist the new curriculum for excellence needs more time and

more cash. We hear from the education secretary, Mike Russell.

Multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter on

his vision for a second Scottish enlightenment, and what could make

that happen - including full fiscal autonomy. And, is he for or against

independence? I have not made up my mind. I am confused, that is where

I find myself today, and I am really interested in this stuff,

and I am confused. I am looking forward to a positive debate

because it is so important. And as Scotland reels from an unexpected

outbreak of Legionella, we hear from people in Barrow-in-Furness in

Cumbria, who are about to mark the tenth anniversary of the worst

outbreak of the disease in the UK. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and

sweaty. Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious.

A highly critical new report suggests there's no evidence the

new Curriculum for Excellence is an effective way of teaching our young

people. Teachers say they like it in principle - but don't rule out

industrial action over the way it has been implemented. This report

from our education correspondent, Seonag MacKinnon.

Problems along insoluble in Scottish education. The new

curriculum is out to tackle them. Teachers are now free to teach what

they feel is interesting. It is hoped this freedom will add more

dynamism to the classroom. The family has been trying to get the

head to read other changes. For Anna, her education free of exam

courses now continues into the third year. We will not be choosing

our main subjects from such an early age so we will know better

what we want to do. Her mother is concerned about the increased

variation in who sits what exams when. They will be some schools to

link four subjects, some five or six, so not all children will come

out equal. Concerns as well up there and the Royal Society of

Edinburgh. In a report this weekend it concludes that evidence for the

effectiveness of the new curriculum is nowhere to be found. There are

assertions of success but no proper evidence. At the conference of the

EIS teaching union this week, concern surfaced in a call for

industrial action. Many teachers like the crippling in principle but

feel schools need an extra a year to prepare. -- the curriculum.

There is no doubt that many teachers believe that the

Curriculum for Excellence and the new exams have been hit by

bureaucracy. Most private schools and one local council have opted to

delay but the bulk of councils see no real need. I do not believe

there is a crisis of confidence. There are things we still need to

get right but it is worth remembering that the first exams

will not be presented for another two years. Two years to prepare and

a new package of support such as extra training days. They may help

but many teachers remain angry amid widespread claims that they were

excluded from government audit of problems. The audit was a scandal,

it barely skim the service of the discontent. The problems within the

report have yet to materialise so I think there is a great deal of

scepticism and then unless the current Secretary to this on his

promises them we will be revisiting industrial action. Outside the

union conference hall in Dundee and across Scotland, future generations

depend on the problems being resolved. We'll speak to the

Scottish Education Secretary Mike Russell in a moment, but first,

joining me now in Glasgow is the President of the Educational

Institute of Scotland, Susan Quinn and in our Edinburgh studio is the

Scottish Conservatives' spokesperson for Education, Liz

Smith. Do all teachers approve in

principle of the Curriculum for Excellence? The vast majority have

throughout the years supported the principles of the Curriculum for

Excellence. It is nothing new, it has been around for the best part

of eight years. It arose out of the national debate for Education and

four key capacities, the principles of once that teachers' support, to

give a broad education to all children before they move into

other aspects of their educational life. Given they have been around

for so long why were you at the point this week of saying you are

potentially going to go on strike? The debate we had this week was

about the national qualifications, it was not about the principles of

Curriculum for Excellence. It saddens me that what we are doing

now is discussing Curriculum for Excellence in the context of the

exams, when it is so much more than that. Eight years ago, when we

began the work on Curriculum for Excellence, EIS called on the

government to not Lynch new qualifications to the broad general

education, to give teachers the chance to implement the broad

general education. And then to move on to the new exams. They have not

done that and that is why teachers in the secondary sector are

concerned. Are you saying that in two years time, the pupils who have

to sit these exams will not have been properly prepared? Absolutely

not. They will be prepared, they will not be in a position where

children are not properly prepared. So there is no need for a delay in

the introduction of the Curriculum for Excellence? Curriculum for

Excellence is being implemented. We have not finished the final phase

of that. The exams or something which sits separately from them.

Some teachers say they do not yet have the test exam papers which

would enable them to construct the Curriculum for Excellence in

schools. Again, the Curriculum for Excellence is about the broad

general education aspect. The national qualifications are

something separate from fat. That is where the conflict arises. The

Curriculum for Excellence, and the broad general education from early

years through to the end of third year, is being implemented across

Scotland. The concern teachers have in the secondary sector is that

that is being done alongside a new set of qualifications. Had they let

the qualifications alone and let us get the brought education into

place then they would have been time to look at the new

qualifications. Liz Smith, you can see why that teachers and parents

we have spoken to about this have said it has become very confusing.

It is the confusion that is such a shame. Everybody is agreed that the

Curriculum for Excellence, in principle, is first class. Far too

many of our youngsters are going through school and not engaging

with the classroom and the whole principle under which Curriculum

for Excellence operates is that greater flexibility and greater

relevance. The real problem is that we should never have been in this

situation. This confusion should never have happened. It was

inevitable, in my opinion, that schools will be ready at different

stages. They are different sizes with different structures and it

was inevitable that we would have a situation where they would be ready

at different times. I think the Scottish government should have

recognised that. I also think the Scottish government should have

sent out a very clear message about what was expected when. That

message has not been forthcoming and that led to the confusion.

do you think all this means for pupils who will be sitting the

exams in a couple of years? I think the pupils, by and large, are part

of the confusion. They have seen their teachers and their parents

been confused as they try to get to grips with the new curriculum.

There are many schools doing a fantastic job and I am quite sure

that these pupils will be ready when the right time comes. Weather

can the Secretary has got this wrong is that he has tried to

steamroller of the timescale so there everybody was supposed to

change all at one time when there was not necessary. Do you think

that it is a little bit arbitrary in the sort of stunt as I we can

expect from schools over the next couple of years? -- sort of schools

-- skills. It is important that we have if flexibility and diversity.

That is coming from the teaching profession and many in the

educational establishment. What should underpin the whole

Curriculum for Excellence is a line that flexibility and that greater

diversity to flourish, and that is why we should have had a staged

timescale. Susan Quinn, let me pick up on something that Liz Smith

mentioned. The relations between the union and the Education

Secretary. A past president has said when Mr Russell starts to

acknowledge there is an issue he does so grudgingly and insist any a

small number of schools require help. This help comes with the

sinister, threatening tone. His EIS suggesting that the education

secretary has intimidated schools into not expressing their concerns?

There is a perception by many teachers in schools that if they

had expressed their opinions what will be put upon the will be a

visit from the inspectorate. So there is a perception that that is

what is there, if you put your head above the parapet to say we need

additional support in the new qualifications, and I repeat in the

area of the new qualifications, Kemp we have a situation where you

will be visited by the inspectorate, and many see that as intimidatory.

Is it you're on demand that Mr Russell's man and approaches

counter-productive to achieving a good result for pupils? I do not

think we should be looking at the personalities of what is counter-

productive. If you have said it is a sinister, threatening tone...

did not personally saved that. However expressed and said cut. We

want to make this support package work. Mr Russell and the rest of

government can make it work by putting it into place in the terms

that sets the additional days, the additional money and the additional

support, putting the resources in place, because teachers want to

make Curriculum for Excellence, broad general education, and the

new qualifications work for the young people that they are charged

with. Thanks both very much indeed. If we start with that point. Of the

resources there to sustain this adequately, not just for the first

set of people to go through this, but in the future? Absolutely, and

additional resources have been brought to bear in the last of the

-- in each of the last three years. There is an agreement we were

bringing an additional �0.5 million directly to support the teachers

themselves. We gave EIS the opportunity to bring forward

directly their concerns to education Scotland, to have those

examined. My job from the beginning has been to support teachers in a

process of change, which we have continued to do, and which we are

going to do in every regard. implication there was up the tone

that has been set has been intimidating enough to stop

teachers coming forward because inspectors will turn up the next

day. The inspectors will not turn up. Education Scotland is a body

which brings together the inspectors and the support services.

I have made it clear that my job, the job of everybody in education,

is to support schools and parents and young people. As long as they

do what you want. No, as long as we do together what we agreed to do

eight years ago, which was to put this programme in and make sure

that it goes through to completion. Then me ask you about this ongoing

confusion. We hear from parents that the Curriculum for Excellence

has widespread support but there are concerns about exams and the

public are not making the I think we need to talk to the

national parents' forum and dead people like dew into schools --

take people like you into schools. I could take you to one dozen

schools around Glasgow to see the enthusiasm and commitment of

teachers and young people to education which takes them forward

in a constructive way. We need to make sure that is what we are doing.

There aren't specimen exam papers available until next April saw

teachers trying to conduct a course at this stage which will be

appropriate are still working in the dark Ages. All the teaching

materials are coming forward, all the information is absolutely on

track. According to the management board on which the EIS six, the

material is there. Physics does not change in its laws, the grammar of

French does not change, it is about good teaching. There is very good

teaching in Scotland which we are constantly trying to drive up. More

than 10 years ago all the political parties in Scotland said we need a

more joined up deeper curriculum. It is not easy to change the

curriculum but we are almost there. We're actually now in year 10 of 13

years of schooling. We have to finish this job by supporting

teachers which is precisely what is happening. The Royal Society of

Edinburgh has said the curriculum for excellence is know where to be

found. There is no proper excellence. These are at the top

academics of the next generation. can assure you, they are not. They

are looking at one part of the equation, not be full equation. The

curriculum for excellence lies internationally, a lot of

international scholars have studied this and there is no doubt that

this is the way to do education in the modern world. The second place

it lies is the actual results we are seeing. We are seeing endless

results from primary school all the way through. There are

international comparative swear we have turned a corner compared to

many others and we are rising again. Does it not bother you that a body

is saying this? It bothers me that we are not, as a nation,

recognising the great strengths of the curriculum for excellence.

Later you will have Tom Hunter, I heard his inspirational speech, the

First Minister also commented on the importance of these changes in

Scottish classrooms. We need to get behind them and make them work.

Areas no strategy on how different parts of the education and skills

sector should be compared. released details last year of

precisely how that was going to work. We have other reports coming

out today, this one has been in the papers today, the figures are from

skills development Scotland which says 10,000 publicly-funded

apprenticeships when two young people already in jobs. Of course

the dead because you have to have a job. This is a disgrace from a

Labour Party press release which says unfortunately do understand.

You have to support young people. have to explain the question first

and then you can respond to it. The question is, at 10,000 publicly-

funded apprenticeships when two young people who were in jobs for

more than six months already. does not say that. You have to be

accurate. A Labour Party press release will say something that is

untrue. What it says it is they have been in jobs for up to six

months. A young person will be taken in by an employer who will

assess their suitability for an apprenticeship. Every young person

in Scotland must have a job, that is what distinguishes a Modern

apprenticeship, they have to work. This is a party who voted against

modern apprenticeships, they are now running down Scotland's young

people. I would call that a disgrace because we should be

working together to make sure young people get opportunities. 25,000 of

them last year. As a nation we have to keep together on these things

because we have a problem and if we do that we will do it well. Let me

press on a couple of points. This is from a Labour Party press

release. The response is from skills development Scotland. Skills

development Scotland does say it mentions the figures of being in

jobs for six months or less but also relating to that are you

categorically saying here that 10,000 publicly-funded

apprenticeships did not go do young people who were in jobs for six

months? Every single modern apprenticeship is helping young

people in their modern Terriers to get jobs. We should be celebrating

that not criticising it. -- Modern apprenticeships -- modern Terriers.

Did they not already have jobs? They had a learning opportunity and

went into an even better one. Thank goodness we put our money into

supporting young people. You are seeing modern apprenticeships by

the sustained or extended in some cases existing employment? That is

precisely what we should be doing as an Asian. Every were focusing on

that be would be building the type of nation we need for the future.

Are you focusing enough on the young people who cannot get jobs?

No 16 to 19-year-old of any description who does not have a job

will get education or training. We recognise the disaster of the

Thatcherite years when there was a lost generation. We are determined

to ensure that will not happen again. Labour Party press releases

running down job schemes that they never voted for our an utter

disgrace. Thank you for coming in, Mike Russell. Now, flags change the

way people think is the finding of research by political scientists at

Strathclyde University. They asked about issues like national pride

and the economy. More than 10,000 people across the UK took part in

the online survey but what they did not also realise was that the

responses to national flags were also being tested. A couple of

months ago on this programme and on other parts of the BBC we asked you

to let us know what you felt about the nation. More than 10,000 of you

click on the Strathclyde University website to answer a quick quiz.

This is the sort of thing they saw, a series of quick questions asking

about the economy and that the top of each page a little flag. Even

though they answered similar questions, not everyone saw the

same thing. The survey randomly designed each person a different

design depending on where the left. People who said they lived in

Scotland might have seen a series of pages like best, the same

questions but this time with a Saltire. In England you might have

seen as St George's cross. The point was not just to find out how

people felt about the nation but to find out how seeing different flags

might altar how they feel. The findings are that flags do make a

difference. Firstly an emotional issue, national pride. Over all

those who lived in England felt negatively about being English.

People who were shown the Union flag felt more proud of being

English but were still on the negative side of the graph. Compare

that to the Scots, neither the Saltire nor union flag had a

significant effect on the national pride which was on the whole

confident. On both sides of the border people who sought the

neutral or Union flag felt positive about the current economic

situation but look what happened if they saw either of the national

flags, it fell into the negative. The Saltire had a stronger negative

effect on people's feelings about the current financial situation in

Scotland. That could be a sign of anxiety rather than reminding

people of being Scottish or British it makes them feel less in control

of the situation in the UK and hard done by. Or could it be an

unconscious feeling by the Scots that doing it alone would be better

in an independent economy? These flags seemed to trigger unconscious

gut responses which applies to allegedly emotional issues like

national pride. We need to attach plenty of caveat to best, not least

of all because many of them watch this programme we could expect them

to be more political savvy than most. During the forthcoming

European football championships the George's cross will be hard to

avoid. If you want to change how people feel, put out more flags,

but which ones? With me in the studio is someone from the research

team at Strathclyde University and another professor. Even with the

national question like the economy there does still seem to be some

emotional reaction when there is a flag around? We thought this was

interesting because there is a tendency to distinguish between the

emotional gut responses to a national flag and more rational

opinions about the economy. When you are triggering national

identity which is traditionally associated with your gut instincts

it also affected how you looked at the economy. National questions

seem to be shaped when people triggered more emotional responses

to their national identity. How do you actually interpret the

response? If somebody sees as Saltire in the background and they

have a specific response to it you may think that is because they do

not think Scotland can survive independently or because they are

frustrated at what they see as Scotland's resources going south.

We have to be really clear in this research it is not representative,

it is a particular set of people who responded to the survey and the

dapper we get does not allow you to interpret Withey said what the dead.

-- the data. -- what the dead. This sets up our next research programme

which is to look at when people are triggered in a particular direction

what made them do that? Research only ever conclusively proves the

need for more research? In this particular case it was an

experiment rather than a survey. Tom, what do you make of what is

coming out here? Should parties wrap themselves up in flags or not?

There are two things. The first thing has been implied already that

decisions on big issues are not necessarily completely rational or

completely emotional. They are a combination of both. The second

thing is that this is a very unusual piece of research. It is

not meant to be representative but what this kind of research does is

stir new questions rather than in a sense give new answers. One of the

things about flags recently and not least in the UK, by that I mean

Northern Ireland as well, is that flag use has become pretty heavily

politicised. You will note probably from this research that as far as

England is concerned there are a small minority in England who do

not regard the Union Jack as something positive because it has

been taken over, as some say, by extreme right-wing groups. Up here

in Scotland other people might have concerns about the Union Jack for

different reasons. In Northern Ireland these symbols are extra

ordinarily controversial and important. The final thing I would

say about this is we should not overestimate, in terms of national

identity, any single symbol. National identity is a confused mix

of everything from mythology through to landscape, through to a

belief in who our heroes are. What makes us like that? The flag is not

irrelevant but it is not the only flag. Does it make it difficult for

politicians if you are seeing I will put forward some very

persuasive arguments based on evidence and be confident I can

persuade you but what we are actually seeing here is it does not

matter what the evidence says, something else is influencing an

emotional response. What is influencing that? Is it your

upbringing, what you Peden has got? We are seeing positive psychology

here. It is a totality. I think it is fantastic that this is the case

that politicians, their spin doctors and their focus groups can

understand what makes us tick. I would see this as a positive and

refreshing aspect of the human race. What is happening now do you think?

The big things to have a look at our the different symbols that

relate to identity. Breaking that down further I think is interesting.

The relationship that we find between the Union Jack and positive

feelings of English identity were quite interesting and in particular

this discussion about English identity at the moment, whether or

not that is synonymous between UK and English identity would be quite

England has assumed since the 18th century that England and Britain

are synonymous, so there is no need for an English identity. Now the

flag issue is part of that struggle to find an identity in a territory

that is quite controversial. Would there be any benefit in getting the

responses of an individual to the different flags, as opposed to a

series of individuals with the same flag, which is what happened in

this exercise? There are lots of different ways that you could

conduct this exercise. The problem is that if you expose the same

person to a number of ways of doing it then that affects the results.

More research to be done. Definitely.

It's been exactly a week since it emerged that there had been an

outbreak of Legionnaires' disease in Edinburgh. Cases of the deadly

disease are expected to decrease this week but health officials say

they cannot yet be sure the outbreak has reached its peak.

Let's cross to the newsroom now for an update with Andrew Kerr. Andrew,

what's the latest? The Health Secretary, Nicholas Sturgeon, will

once again chair a meeting at 2pm this afternoon of all the key

bodies involved in trying to work on this outbreak. After that

meeting we will hear at 3pm to latest update on the number of

suspected cases. The latest figure we have from yesterday were 80

confirmed and suspected cases of Legionnaires' disease. Cases are

expected to decrease this week but health officials cannot yet be sure

that the outbreak has reached his peak. At the moment we are still

looking at the source of the outbreak. Four cooling towers Hart

suspected in four sites in Edinburgh. An improvement notice

has been served on North British Distillery. We will bring the

latest update here on BBC Scotland at 3pm.

The unfolding situation in Edinburgh has brought back memories

for the community of Barrow-in- Furness in Cumbria - which is about

to commemorate the tenth anniversary of the worst outbreak

of Legionnaires' in the UK. Almost 200 people in the town contracted

the disease and seven people died. At first Bill Merewood thought his

wife Christine had a bad dose of the flu - but within days she was

fighting for her life. The Saturday morning the doctor checked and the

sooner she by dint of hospitals they did further checked and

confirm that it was Legionnaires' disease. We did not realise how

serious it was, even then. The 56- year-old, who was originally from

Rutherglen, was one of seven people to die in the Legionnaires'

outbreak in Barrow-in-Furness in August 2002. Brenda Sedgewick was

one of the 180 people who contracted the disease, she says

she's lucky to be alive. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and sweaty.

Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious. And then I

got septicaemia and pneumonia, all the organs failed, induced coma,

and they did not know how or when they brought the out of the Como

what would happen. Jo Davis covered the story for the North West

Evening Mail, she remembers the atmosphere in the town as the

number of cases diagnosed rapidly increased. Because nobody knew

where the outbreak occurred, nobody knew how to protect themselves. It

was a very concerning time. Then we had the very sad news that some

people had died and we just could not comprehend that this was

happening in a small town like this. The source of the outbreak was

traced here - an arts complex in the town centre. It was discovered

that contaminated water had been leaking from an air conditioning

system into this alley way. They all said that it was down this

particular alley so it was fairly obvious that it was discharging

into the alley way. Although there were one or two industrial sources

that we had to eliminate as well. The task facing the team in

Edinburgh is considerably larger. Barrow Borough Council didn't want

to take part in this film. It was fined, along with one of its

architects, for breaches of health and safety. It's almost ten years

on but emotions are still raw. There are lessons to be learned,

are on there? I still get a lot of flashbacks, thinking they should

not have happened. If things were followed rightly, it should not

have happened. Like he should not have happened in Scotland, but

these things do. The question of how prepared the

economy is to withstand a deterioration in the rest of Europe

over the coming months was one of the issues discussed at the

Business in Parliament conference at Holyrood this week. We'll be

hearing from the entrepreneur Sir Tom Hunter shortly, but first our

reporter Gilly Mathieson has been talking to businesses across

Scotland to find out their concerns. One of flight's little luxuries.

Scotland's food and drink industry is continuing to boom with all-time

high exports of �5.4 bn last year. But despite record sales, the

credit squeeze is having an impact. It is making us more careful with

whom we give credit to. We have taken some losses per share were

people who have gone bankrupt and it puts uncertainty into the

investment programme. We are investing but the tears and her

first time. In Edinburgh, 14th Alex is seeing a growth in output after

winning back orders from the Far East -- Maclaren Plastics. We have

to think inevitably, we have to maximise the amount of time that we

use our planned for, and generally become as competitive as we can.

was the ambition of Alison Grieves to move production of her products

from China to her business HQ in Edinburgh. We have price matching

here on our doorstep which is propelling us forward and it does

dispel the myth that manufacturing in the Far East is a lot cheaper.

Safetray began as a start-up three years ago and is now exporting

across the world but it had to exchange equity for capital in

order to expand. Safetray as a company has benefited from doing

that, however there are other high- growth companies that are still

finding it really tough to get that money. The factory is working

around the clock but its owner police that uncertainty over the

referendum could lose him business. We are not quite sure when

developing products about putting new product lines down. There is

talk about it and it does concern us for the future. Sandra

Paterson's business is being mounted by Entrepreneurial Spark,

an initiative supported by a Sir Tom Hunter, of giving free office

space and support to allow her to expand. We have been able to use

the money and resources that we would have spent on offices and

space on a staff, we have taken on a modern apprentice and a full-time

manager. Scotland is a nation of inventors who shaped the modern

world, but with challenging time to cross the globe, what more can we

be doing today to insure business thrives in this uncertain world.

Sir Tom Hunter was the key speaker at the business conference in

Holyrood. Just after that speech he told me we should be setting our

sights on a new Scottish Enlightenment. In these the

collaboration of business, education, politicians, trade

unions, the third sector. Scotland is small enough to be able to do

this. Indeed, I think we need to do it or would be left behind. Do we

have enough of the fiscal levers to do it? Again, I am for fiscal

autonomy for very simple reasons. If you were a business that any had

one side of the equation, which was you have the cheque book but no

control over hope to raise the finance, that is a recipe for

disaster. I think Scotland should have both sides of that equation,

which is fiscal autonomy. Can that rain would be established in

Scotland stays within the UK or do we have to start with a clean

slate? I do not know the answer to that question. I am willing to

listen. I am really interested in this debate but we need to have

that debate. One thing I do know is we cannot put things on hold for

two years while we worry about this. We have to make changes today.

that a concern for you, that the constitutional debate will

overshadow everything? If people go, OK, we will wait until we know,

then two years as an awful long time in today's business world.

pot of the key issues in this debate of most interest to you?

What will most interest the Scottish people, everybody will say

how was it could to affect me? Everybody will be slightly

different. I think it is for the politicians to answer these

questions. What interests me? One of the key things for staying in

the union, is it just the status quo, or can there be more positive

things to come out of staying in the Union? If it is independence,

Wallaby to me as a businessman? What is going to happen with our

tax regime? Will we be able to export more easily? All of these

sorts of questions need to be answered. Do you think there is any

value in moving the day forward, or de think we need the time to have

the full debate? So far, I believe we need the time because we have

not even started yet. What sort of effect you think the constitutional

debate is having on the business environment? My impression is I

understand big utility companies, big companies who want to. Capital

many years in advance would be St which environment and by deploying

this capital into? I think there is uncertainty for them and I

understand that. The breast of it, I do not really see it holding back

investment. What impact is the euro crisis having on Scottish business?

The European question, up from a businessman point of view, is

number one of the present time. But the very fact that, faced with

calamity, the European Union cannot actually get its act together and

sold it, actually answers the question. This union is not really

be union, it is unworkable. 17 countries in single currency, or

many more countries tried come together. The very fact they have

not been able to come when the stakes are so high and fix this

tells me everything about trying to herd everybody with very different

agendas together. So what do you think is the answer? Could this,

thing that is way above my pay scale! It is very high, then!

think one of the interesting things would be if Greece was to exit the

next he make a coat of it then European politicians would be

really worried. But I think change news to happened there. I do not

know what the changes, but that status quo is not acceptable.

your opinion that the Westminster government is right to be as

unsupportive as it is being at the moment? I think Britain is in a

better place by not joining the European single currency,

definitely. Our currency conflate, which is important. I am not for a

federal Europe. Do you see any problems with Scotland where it to

become independent continuing to use the paint? Had he not think so.

But some scare mongering exist, but these are the questions that we

need to get to. Can we keep the pound? Can we set our own interest

rates? These are the questions that need answered, not whether we are

going to have a flag or whatever, that is to be dealt with later. Let

us deal with the big questions first. Property retail was badly

affected, how difficult has it been for you? We have had to reinvent

ourselves. For many years, our business was going in an upward any

direction. But, frankly, through our own fault, we lost the focus.

People say, maybe nobody saw the downturn coming. Yes, they did.

Clever people saw the downturn coming and made lots of money from

it. We just were not good at it, therefore I have to look at myself,

take responsibility and we intend. We have had to take some tough

decisions, some tough medicine, but we have done that, we have

regrouped, and I'm glad to say we What is it about as as Scots? Are

we more risk adverse or less business savvy? I do not know. I do

wonder sometimes if we have failed but I am not giving up. If we look

at Scotland's history. Where I was brought up was a deep coal-mining

community. We were dominated by a these kind of industries. When I

was at school I was told go down the pit, a job for life, someone

else will take care of you. But guess what, no coalmines in

Scotland any more, no shipbuilding. We are still educating our children

by and large the same but into a very different world. There are no

jobs for life any more. We need to be equipping our kids with a can-do

attitude, an independent thought and a questioning mind that can

deal with whatever is going to come their way. I do not know what is

going to happen in the next 20 years but I know change is going to

be rapid and if Scotland is going to be at the forefront of that we

meet a generation that feels confident in this ever-changing

world. What would give them that confidence? An education that

instils that in them. You only experience of education you were

talking about. My ear -- Real Education was working in my dad's

shot from a very early age. Business was talked about around

the kitchen table. His business something you can learn or is it a

personal characteristic rather than an intellectual exercise? Nature

and nurture is the big question. You are going to have your natural

born entrepreneur's and you're a natural born sports people but with

a bit of encouragement and the right education we can all become a

bit more entrepreneurial. To get back to the constitutional issue,

should it be a simple yes or no on the ballot paper? I think it is

interesting. I think the Scottish National Party cannot really goal

for a yes or no if they think they are going to lose because then they

will say there is no mandate to govern. At some point they are

going to have to say will we put a third question on the ballot paper.

Once the third question goes on I think it is inevitable that they

will not get a clean yes. Do you think it is inevitable there will

be a devo max question? I do not know. I am talking -- watching with

interest. Do you very good instincts suggest that? I have not

made up my mind. I am confused and I am really interested in this

stuff. I am looking forward to a positive debate because it is so

important. It has not been positive until now do you think? I think it

has been skirmishes around the edges and a bit of a pantomime.

When you decide will you go public about your decision before you

vote? I am conscious that I have one vote the same as you have and I

am conscious of what it should be but I think I will make up my mind

and then I will think of what to do. So you may go public? Some people

will say it could be persuasive if somebody with a successful business

profile like you have, if you decide it is a good idea, it could

be persuasive. Do you accept that? You do not have any false modesty?

I think it is a burden. I have got to decide whether I want to play

that role or not. I think first of all I have got to find out what I

really think. A burden in what sense? If I thought other people

were going to go the way I was going to go it makes it even more

important that I get it right. Tom Hunter there, let's cross back

over to Andrew for the lunchtime news. The number of young people

getting apprenticeships has been mismatched according to Scottish

Labour. They claim many had already been working in a job for over six

months. The Scottish Government say they are committed to maximising

employability for young people. What the Government are doing is

very bad gene people in work as apprentices while people on the

dole queue are suffering as a consequence. A man has died at a

music festival in Loch Ness. He took ill in the main arena last

night and died in a nearby hospital a short time later. The Olympic

Torch has arrived in Scotland's Islands. Thousands of people turned

out to see it. Our reporter is following its progress. We are

flying in the next hour or so to Shetland and from there it will

split, it goes into a Norwegian longboat and the rest of the flame

will go around Lerwick, then we will head to Stornoway. Three

islands in one day for the torch. We hope that the torch and the

flame will be enriched by its visit to Orkney. Now a look at the

weather. Nothing too dramatic happening this afternoon. A lot of

cloud around. We will see some brightness. We will see outbreaks

of patchy light rain or drizzle continuing in the Central Lowlands

in particular and across the south- west. It will be quite cool. That

is all for now. Our next bulletin is at 6: 20 this evening. Thank you

for that. This week it is a political who's to at the Leveson

Inquiry. I will hand you back to my colleague for more. David Cameron

is up on Thursday. Many people before him, you will be spoiled for

things to write about all over the Leveson Inquiry. That's right. They

will be struggling for top billing. All we need is some gumboots and a

pop up tend. I think they will cancel each other out and the

issues may be lost. The most interesting will be David Cameron.

Did he come to a deal with the Murdoch corporation to support

their bid for BSkyB before it the 2010 election? The Channel 4

Dispatches documentary tomorrow will claim exactly that. How much

do you think he will be able to see given that there is a police

investigation under way? I am sorry, I think Ian did not hear me asking

that question. I get, sorry, my apologies. -- I did. There is

clearly an issue here, Andy Coulson the former No. 10 adviser who was

the former News of the World editor, he has been charged with perjury

following comments he made in relation to phone hacking in the

Tommy Sheridan case. There are complexities here. And what do you

think will be the key points potentially to come out of the

Leveson Inquiry this week? Ironically this inquiry was meant

to be set up because of the phone hacking issue. The legal problems

mean that it is the one issue they have been unable to delve into very

much. There is suspicion Alex Salmond's phone could have been

hacked. Police are looking at allegations that the form of his

dead and the phone of the former First Minister Jack McConnell had

been hacked. -- phone of his aide. He had this relationship with the

Murdoch press in Scotland where they were very supportive in the

run up to the last election. The one to keep them on side for the

referendum campaign. There is that issue and there is also Salmond's

adviser appealing to say that they would be happy to pick up the phone

to Jeremy Hunt in regards to the BSkyB bid if that would be helpful

to the Murdoch Corporation. These are the two big issues. Alex

Salmond wanted his the in the limelight at Leveson -- the -- day.

Before he came forward and told us if his phone had been hacked.

appropriate for the First Minister to decline to answer that issue

about phone hacking? I was applying the rule of what would happen if

the situation had been reversed. I think the SNP would be having a go

at a Labour First Minister for doing this. He is going on a

precedent which has been set by the UK coalition Government, by David

Cameron who himself has said his connections with Jeremy Hunt and

the phone hacking scandal were to be examined by the Leveson

inquiries so there was no need for any further investigation. I think

the Scottish public have already got the message here. We have got a

newspaper magnate who was so powerful and influential that no

politician, David Cameron, Alex Salmond, to resist them. They all

wanted to get into bed with Murdoch because they thought Murdoch was

the way to win elections. I do not think this will she that public

perception very much. The question now is what happens about it. I am

getting very worried because we often focus on these extremist

issues and forget that Leveson is about press regulation. He is

minded to bring statutory members - - statutory rules to punish members

of the press. I think if that is going to happen depress should get

in there early and see if there is going to be a new statute then line

one has to be freedom of the press in Britain. There is a danger that

because everyone has been so interested in some of the details

this could bring about a fundamental change in what the

press can report, what kind of investigations, have we missed that

picture? I think sadly that Leveson on a daily basis has degenerated

into a soap opera. Did murder by address for Rebekah Brooks? Real a

sideshow issues that has changed this from assets than to give media

debate. David Cameron is at least able to stand up now and do

anything. He instituted the Leveson inquiry to try to get away from

them. I think that short-term political opportunism, the press

may well find themselves in a difficult situation. I think we

have seen some people wake up to best, one man some weeks ago was

able to stand up and it was seen as part of his future leadership

ambitions possibly. He was able to stand up as a former journalist and

say hang on a minute, let's look at where we are going with this, of

what the future press will look like and what it will mean for our

democracy in the UK if we go down this road. We have seen people

wanting to get through it without any mud sticking to them and to

just go with the fashion seeing it has been a disgrace, it has been

terrible, one newspaper who had an out of control culture of doing

things that were not journalism. Does that mean proper journalism

will suffer as a result? There have been too many people around the

sides of best like the Guardian with their own agenda, people have

to weaken up and realise what it will mean for all of us. We are out