17/06/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by Philip Hammond, the defence secretary to discuss troop numbers and Syria.

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Good afternoon. Welcome to Sunday Politics.


It is decision day for Greece as the country goes to the polls for


the second time this year. Results determine Greek membership of the


bureau and could plunge Europe into economic chaos.


During the first Gulf war, Britain sent 53,000 troops to the Middle


East. Could we fuel anything like that kind of firepower again? I


will speak to the Secretary of State for Defence Philip Hammond.


And on Sunday Politics Scotland, the SNP Leader of Argyll & Bute


Council, admits they made a mistake trying to ban Martha's School Meal


blog. And same sex marriage. And I would


apologise to mar that if it has cost her any... We will be trying


to find a way forward. The Equality Network and the Catholic Church go


head to head over how they want the Scottish government to legislate.


And as the Euro house of cards wobbles, we ask the Scotland Office


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1350 seconds


how they plan to protect Scotland's We are not comparing ourselves with


the Americans. Workforces, even after the changes announced, will


be, after the Americans, one of the biggest in the world. Let us look


at Syria. What resources could we contribute? The UK has a fast


capability. And no aircraft carriers. We have an air base in


Cyprus. It would give us the ability to mount operations in the


eastern Mediterranean. A bar to lure strategy involves cutting


full-time troops and replacing The experts do not think you can


compensate. Frankly, the experts are in the British are made and


they do think that the Territorial Army can play a more significant


role. Under the last government, training budgets for the


Territorials were cut. The proxy covenant between the Territorial


Army and the reservists. They did not get the training they were


promised. What we have done is committed to ring-fenced budget,


�1.8 billion over 10 years to provide the Ket and training that


the Territorial Army need. They will be integrated more effectively


into the regular Army. It has already been talked about that much


closer linking of the Territorial Army units with regular units. They


can then train together and work up their sticker -- skills together.


We believe they would be of significant support. Particularly


in a sustained operation. In future, if we do get involved in a


sustained operation, as we get into the second and third year, he will


start to see bigger proportions of a verb -- reservists. Many famous


regiments are on the line in your cuts. Can you guarantee that


historic regiments will be just as much of the brunt as English once -


- Scottish ones. It is focused on how to distribute the reductions in


manpower across everything that is based on military Wrobel -- logic


will the English or Scottish regiments bear the brunt? I can


tell you that the way it is done will be demonstrably failed --


demonstrably fair. So that people in the wider community see it as


spare and, based on proper logical and -- analysis. Your defence


spending, you are some that starts to rise again by 1% in real terms


after 2015. The Chancellor has told us there will have to be more


spending cuts in 2016 and 2017. Has the then Speaker exempted? The 1%


increase in after 2015 is only on the equipment programme. Our budget


has been built on the assumption which has agreed with the Treasury


that there will be a 1% increase in the equipment purchase and support.


Whatever cuts happen elsewhere, you will get that extra 1%? That is the


Back welcome to Sunday's politics Scotland.


Coming up, we ask Scotland Office minister if they think the spending


plans for Trident will play badly and Scotland.


An epic scale for Argyll and Bute council as this quiet Highland


village becomes the focus of intense worldwide interest. The


school dinner Sagar,... There is no PR jargon, people are blunt about


what they think about products and services. There has been a lot of


beer and that fear is older men back from engaging.


As figures out this week show marriage is on the rise in Scotland,


we ask the Equality Network and the collet -- Catholic Church what they


think will come out of the government's same-sex marriage


consultation. If you have spent the past week


going to the revolving door of politicians appearing at Leveson or


watching a flame pass by your street, you may have missed a few


very significant financial announcements. Our business and


economy Ender has the highlights. What money would Scott Hughes if we


bought for independence? Would it be a Scottish Power and or perhaps


the euro though not too popular right now. Would it be this from


the Bank of England. This is the front-runner. The implications of


an independent Scotland currency being run from Scotland are causing


more trouble than any other issue. In reassuring people that


investments and markets will be stable through the transition,


Scotland's finance minister at John Swinney went further this week. He


suggested regulation of Scotland's banks should be overseen from


London. The Bank of England is as much an institution of Scotland as


cities of any other part of the United Kingdom. It is essentially


providing the type of financial activity that an independent


Scotland would require. It happens to provide that within the United


Kingdom. What Whitehall agree to that? If so, on what conditions? Is


it legal under European law? If other financial powers are a shade


between Edinburgh and London, would it look much like independence? The


awkward contact the -- context is a currency union across the North Sea


is feeling. There is a lack of the but it -- political and fiscal


union. That crisis is casting a big shadow over economy. The world


economy is a much less welcoming environment in which to rebalance


the UK economy than two years ago. Not only have the euro area


problems escalated, to the point where exit for Greece and other


countries is the subject of widespread speculation, but signs


of a slowing in China, India and other previously buoyant in


emerging economies such as Brazil are appearing daily. It is more


than two years since market started punishing other countries for not


paying off debts. This weekend in Greece sees a showdown between


markets and porters. If austerity is rejected, it may spread


contagion to other countries. In turn, that could severely weakened


banks based in strong economies, Germany, the Netherlands, vital


trading partners for us. The Treasury and Bank of England, and


this crisis that helps the supply of credit. The problem looks like


an increasing lack of demand. Businesses look at the economic


weather and they do not want to take a risk on investment.


If Anna Westminster studio, we have the Conservative MP David Mundell.


Lot of worries about the economy. The SNP are trying to reassure


people about the economy and an independent Scotland. We have the


Finance Secretary John Swinney saying that retaining the pound


under independence is in the best interests of Scotland and for the


UK. I think that John Swinney was trying to reassure people as to


what the economic situation in Scotland would be after


independence, he has seriously have failed. He has raised more


questions than he has answered. The issue remains for the SNP who were


here again today. They do not want to talk about independence to


people in Scotland. What they mean by independence. If they want to


keep the arrangements for the currency exactly as they are, what


is the purpose of independence? Their proposal would give Scotland


much less say over the power and. The Bank of England would not be


required to take interest into account. As the Ducie that they


could have a Scottish member on the Monetary Policy Committee. --


reduce C. They are certain things that the EC have already been


discussed. There have been no discussions with the Bank of


England about how an independent Scotland would seek to operate. All


these things are simply assertions. It is like the issue with the EU,


there have been no sub-standard discussions about Scotland would be


part of the European Community. All these things have not been thought


through and it is only now that the spotlight is coming on what


independence actually means that the SNP are finally having to


answer questions about these really significant issues for economy.


us look at the bank lending scheme that was announced. The SNP claim


this is papering over the cracks. There are substantial ways to boost


jobs and the economy. I have heard so much about the shop already


projects. The answer to them is that the SNP have had over �1


billion in addition monies which they did not to participate from


the consequence -- Comprehensive spending Review. They could take


policy choices to spend money on the show already projects. They


have not done so. This whole exercise is actually a smokescreen


for not taking responsibility for for their own policy decisions.


That is what having a parliament is about. It is about making decisions


and taking responsibility for them. The SNP have chosen not to proceed


with their own budget for these shop already projects. If Mr


Salmond wants to take that issue, he should not the British


government. They Greeks are going to the polls. What is a concern for


Scotland if Greece believes the euro? What is David Cameron doing


in Mexico? It is a matter for the Greek people as to who they bought


for her and we will see that later on today. -- Gaisce Awards. It is


beneficial that Greece remains within the euro. There is no doubt


that it would impact on the halt the UK. It would impact on Scotland.


We cannot isolate our economy as we have seen across the UK and in


Scotland from what is happening in the Eurozone. We must hope that we


can get a resolution in Greece which sees Greece stay in the


Eurozone but with, on a basis that allows that to be sustainable.


us look at another issue. Philip Hammond was spelling out his plans


for its nuclear reactors. This has been the reaction from the SNP.


This is the tip of the expert is far as expenditure is concerned. It


is estimated that the outturn across the weapons system could be


up to �25 billion. What is quite clear from Scotland is that the


people of Scotland are opposed to nuclear weapons systems on the


Clyde. The Scottish Parliament is supposed. An issue but civic


Scotland, the Scottish churches are paused and saw the trade unions. It


is an obscenity that we are pressing ahead at this time with


this particular system. Pressing ahead with this system, David


Mundell, as he was pointing out, the Scottish population as opposed


to this. This will not play well for you in Scotland on the approach


to the referendum, will it? I think his response is entirely


predictable. I think he would be better spending his time telling us


how independent Scotland is going to be defended. The government


policies are quite clear. What we don't know was what the SNP plan


for Defence in relation to Scott Flinders. We do not know what we


will be in or out of any tour. -- NATO. We also know that there are


thousands of jobs in Scotland related to Faslane. We have heard


nothing about how they will go to be redeployed. I think the sub-


standard question on defence are for the SNP to answer. He were


talking about plans under independence. Scottish CND have


published their plan on disarmament. This leaves the UK Government and


effects of Scotland becomes independent. I think everyone


understands although the SNP's seemed no unwilling to admit it,


but there will be significant differences in Scotland is


independent. There will be differences on defence, a currency,


our economy, potential differences in membership of the EU. They must


tell us what these differences would mean, what an independent


Scotland would look like and why it is better than the arrangement we


have as part of the United Kingdom. The onus is on them to come up with


the answers. Thank you. A social media onslaught forced a


small Scottish Council into a spectacular U-turn this week.


Martha Payne was briefly banned from posting snaps of her school


dinners by a goal and Bute Council. Widely regarded as heavy handed,


little did they realise the global support this nine-year-old would


receive. As the story served up the perfect


tasty treat for journalists around the world. A little girl from her


health was the third most talked- about subject on global Twitter.


Martha's meals had already attracted attention but this


newspaper article was too much for Argyll and Bute Council. It was


banned. It was disappointing because I know how much more song


was enjoying it. It was a shame that it happened so suddenly


through no fault of our own. Due in the course of the day, celebrity


chefs expect him and social media flexed its new-found muscles.


Politicians also stepped in. There was a change of heart. I would


encourage the child to continue doing what she is doing. To be fair


to the child, she has rated Argyll and Bute school meals 10 out of 10.


20 years ago, a child banned from carrying out her own project would


not have merited a mention in the local paper. It touched a nerve.


There was concern for the council was being heavy-handed. As the


story flashed around the world, Twitter users decided it was an


injustice and piled the pressure on. The social media element comes on


and it does not get left on one website. It course round and


everyone is adding their feedback, their opinions and the council have


seen that everyone was talking about it. Without having a thought-


out plan, we have made a mess of it. Quirky stories have also attracted


public attention. Now the rise of alternative publishing means people


power can challenge judicial authorities in ways that it could


never have been imagined. Just before we came on air, I spoke


to a councillor. It was a very bad experience. We got it wrong at the


start. I am happy to admit that. I hoped we have rectified that.


do you think it had such an air? always hits a nerve regarding


school dinners. I fully appreciate that. I hoped we can rectify this


as soon as possible. Do you appreciate how this taps into the


frustrations a lot of parents have with councils such as or more


zealous child protection. --? fully understand the concern of


parents. Frustration is something we must work together with to try


to sort out. Sometimes common sense flies out the window, but hopefully,


common sense will prevail. Their two sides to this story. A lot of


people supported the council's position. That is understandable as


well. We are 100 % behind what the child is doing. As you said, there


is another side to the story. We have spoken to the dinner staff for


more than two weeks now. We had a meeting set up with Mr Payne. In my


opinion, the dinner ladies have been wrongly caught in the middle


of this whole fiasco. There is no blame whatsoever on them. It has


been an upsetting time for the council. What made you change your


mind. --? The only thing that made us change our mind was that we got


it wrong and decided to readdress that as soon as possible. There is


nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong. We're doing our very


best to rectify it. What was the Michael Russell is the hour MSP. I


have been in constant contact with him on this. After the second press


release went out for the council he telephoned me just to have a


conversation regarding that. you speak to Michael Russell


yourself? I spoke with them later on in the afternoon. It was not 10


who made you change your mind and the council's mind? Definitely not.


That would never happen. He and I have an understanding. He is the


elected leader of Argyll & Bute Council. Irrespective of which


party are in power in Hollywood, he would continue to work with whoever


holds power in Holyrood. We will continue to do that. What lessons


can be learned from this? We have seen an onslaught from social media.


It seems like your council might have been living in the dark Ages?


I agree with you 100%. We will be smartening up on social media. You


learn from your mistakes. The first thing to do is admit we have made a


mistake. We will learn from this and move on from this. The longer


we try to attach blame to this day later we will solve the problem.


Are you going to apologise? I would certainly apologise to the girl


effect has caused her any angst whatsoever. I will be meeting her


father on Thursday to see if we can find a way forward. We have met


with the catering staff and teachers from the school and agreed


a way forward. Unfortunately this blew up right in the middle of a


these meeting. What can a council do to avoid a PR disaster like


this? It is hard to comment. We have only been the council's


communications team since the 22nd. -- May 22nd. Now the news. Good


afternoon. The UK Government is planning to announce a 1 billion


pound contract with Rolls-Royce for it nuclear submarines. It is the


strongest signal yet that there will be a replacement for Trident


despite the objections from the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish


Government. The fleet which carries the nuclear deterrent is based at


Faslane on the Clyde. Today the UK Defence Secretary gave the clearest


sign yet that Trident will be replaced. We will be announcing a


commitment to the major refurbishment of the Rolls-Royce


plant at Derby which builds these reactors. Not just for the nuclear


deterrent submarines but also for an hour attack class. If Scotland


becomes independent the SNP would want a nuclear free Scotland with


Trident out. The party also believes spending billions


replacing trident is wrong. This is not about jobs but about the


obscenity of spending �100 billion on a weapons system that is no


longer required and is morally unjustified. The final decision


will not come until 2016 after the next UK General Election and after


the UK independence referendum. number of people convicted of


drink-driving in Scotland has fallen by one-third over the past


five years. The number of people convicted of being over the limit


has dropped to just 5348 last year. Now the weather forecast. Good


afternoon. It is a big improvement as far as the weather is concerned


for this afternoon. A lot of dry weather across the country. There


will be some showers in the north- east but it should brighten up here


during this evening. There will be some sunshine across western


Scotland extending in the land during the afternoon. That is all


for now. This week, official figures showed that marriages are


on the rise but we are still awaiting the result of Holyrood's


consultation on the same sex and marriage. Our reporter has been


looking at why equal marriage proposals have become such a big


issue in Scotland. Scotland's first civil partnership in 2005 attracted


a crowd of press and television crews. The SNP Government is now


considering a change to law to allow gay marriages in churches.


Some oppose this. Some suspect that there was a loss in parliament


recently because of this issue. The SNP are worried this might fracture


their coalition for a yes. There has been pressure at Holyrood from


religious organisations and equal rights campaigners. I think the


majority of SNP's are in favour of equal marriage. That is what the


opinion polls say and what I find when I am out and about. But there


is still a strong voice in the parliament saying that no person or


organisation should be forced to be involved or to approve of same-sex


marriage. There must be protection for the churches and others who do


not agree with this. They might believe that sex between two people


of the same gender is wrong and that is a belief that must be


protected. Legislation is now being considered by countries across


Europe. In Westminster David Cameron has backed plans to allow


same-sex couples in England and Wales to marry. If you want to look


at human rights Paris in years, as Scotland may want to do as the move


towards a referendum. Of those asked in a poll were their same-sex


couples should have a right to get married 64 % agree. 26 % disagree.


On whether religious organisations should have the right to decide


whether or not to conduct same-sex marriages 68 % agree and 61 -- 21 %


disagree. The results of a same-sex marriage consultation will be


published later this month. But now I am joined in the studio by two


men. You're poll said that people agree with same-sex marriage, but


it would, wouldn't it? Increasing majorities around the world say


they support same-sex marriages. A majority of MSPs signed our equal


marriage pledge. What we are seeing to the Scottish Government is


listen to the public can be parliament, you have got the green


light now to go ahead with legislation. Does this show that


the churches are out of touch with what the public are thinking?


think what the poll tells us very much is that it would show that. It


started with a very leading question and when you start with a


leading question you get a misleading answer. It is always a


good idea to avoid asking a direct question seeing should someone had


the right to something? The public in general are very weary to


suggest that someone should not have a right. You have


automatically distorted this result. The poll that matters is the three-


month long consultation which took place at the end of last year in


which the vast majority said marriage should not be redefined.


We are hearing there is a lot in favour of keeping marriage as it is.


What are you ready lines in this? We know what you're ideal would be


but looking at the David Cameron option of same-sex marriage but not


in church, we do agree with that? do not think so. We agree with


religious freedom. Those bodies which do not want to conduct same-


sex marriage should not have to but those bodies that do want to should


be allowed to and I think most people would agree with that.


about diesel option as we almost have in Europe and on the Continent,


would you agree with that? current legislative framework,


whether in Scotland, Britain, or Europe, it does not allow us to do


that. Could certain religions the observe one speed on the motorway


while other religions have to observe a different speed? That


cannot happen. We are being offered a blank cheque that cannot be


cashed and it is back to the issue of equality legislation. It has to


have a blanket impact. This is a key point. We had a UK ministers


seeing in England that perhaps the churches cannot be protected. You


might make promises about this but they could be hollow promises


because human rights legislation will not allow judges to be forced


to carry out same-sex marriages. Europe we have had same-sex


marriage for over a decade now. In that entire time there has never


been one judgment by the European Court of human rights or any


domestic court that has encouraged let alone required that theme --


the groups conduct same-sex marriages. Unfortunately that is


not true. Churches in Denmark have been open to challenge and been


compelled to go ahead with same-sex marriages when they wanted not to.


Been matter is what happens in Scotland. It has been made


abundantly clear that these protections and exclusions cannot


be delivered. We will be in the same position as we were when we


were told that Catholic Church is adoption agencies would be


protected and the Scottish Government could not follow through


on that. Without any compromise from either side you cannot meet


have we? It is not for you just about protecting traditional


marriage. If I am right in seeing you actually opposed all same-sex


relationships and you do not want to see any legislation that


facilitates same-sex relationships which the Church thinks our protest.


The law does not allow for the new legislation to apply to some and


not to others. What you would prefer to see his compulsion and


then the reality that is what would happen. You would want teachers to


be compelled to teach children that same-sex relationships are valid


and should be prized, whether or not they believe in it. You would


criminalise people who did not agree with you. The reassurances


are not holding much sway. European Convention on human rights


protects your right not to conduct same-sex marriages. Of course there


will always be a minority that a pause black civil rights movements,


votes for women, in time people will look back on this and think it


is wrong. Same-sex marriage is not a human right. To equate it with


sexism or racism is completely wrong. It is not that. We have seen


advances made on gender equality and racial equality, is it not be


seen? It is not the same, it is not right, we have even seen a European


Court decision that says it is not the same. They need to stop being


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by Philip Hammond, the defence secretary to discuss troop numbers, changes to the armed forces and the crisis in Syria. There is also a look ahead to what happens after the Greek elections, how the markets might react and what it will mean for the UK economy.

And the regular panel of journalists look back over the week's politics and in particular the Leveson inquiry.

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