10/06/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Shadow Education Secretary Stephen Twigg.

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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Spain is heading


for a massive 100 billion euro bailout of its dodgy banks. But is


it big enough? As the Chancellor blames the Euro crisis for


Britain's economic woes, we'll get the view from the City. That's our


top story. When it comes to reforming our schools, who is the


true heir to Blair? Secretary of State Michael Gove or his Labour


counterpart, Stephen Twigg? The Shadow Education Secretary joins us


for the Sunday interview. And should the Government perform the


mother of all U-turns yet and give the go-ahead for a third runaway at


Heathrow? The two sides go head-to- head on airport expansion.


Here in Scotland, the number of people affected by the legionnaires


outbreak was expected to peak this weekend - we'll have the latest.


And the multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir


Tom Hunter on how to create a second Scottish enlightenment. All


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1586 seconds


Do we have enough of the big provincial towns? Frankfurt,


Germany is a country with strong environmental cues. It has played


down an area of the forest to create a new runway. It took five


years to get that decision, What what happened if we do not


have a new runway? Our economy is based on of the reach a mobile


society. You can think of London as an aircraft carrier where people


fly in, to their business, and fly out. The Thames estuary is that the


far eastern tip of England. There are areas like Reading, Swindon and


the rest of the country for which Heathrow is the nearest airport.


Let us get real. He has challenged the aviation industry to get real


about the facts. Business travel has declined as a result of


business confidence and all the rest. We know that passenger it


looting on the individual airlines has increased by 20%, said more


Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up


on the programme. Classroom strikes are off for now, but teachers'


unions insist the new curriculum for excellence needs more time and


more cash. We hear from the education secretary, Mike Russell.


Multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter on


his vision for a second Scottish enlightenment, and what could make


that happen - including full fiscal autonomy. And, is he for or against


independence? I have not made up my mind. I am confused, that is where


I find myself today, and I am really interested in this stuff,


and I am confused. I am looking forward to a positive debate


because it is so important. And as Scotland reels from an unexpected


outbreak of Legionella, we hear from people in Barrow-in-Furness in


Cumbria, who are about to mark the tenth anniversary of the worst


outbreak of the disease in the UK. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and


sweaty. Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious.


A highly critical new report suggests there's no evidence the


new Curriculum for Excellence is an effective way of teaching our young


people. Teachers say they like it in principle - but don't rule out


industrial action over the way it has been implemented. This report


from our education correspondent, Seonag MacKinnon.


Problems along insoluble in Scottish education. The new


curriculum is out to tackle them. Teachers are now free to teach what


they feel is interesting. It is hoped this freedom will add more


dynamism to the classroom. The family has been trying to get the


head to read other changes. For Anna, her education free of exam


courses now continues into the third year. We will not be choosing


our main subjects from such an early age so we will know better


what we want to do. Her mother is concerned about the increased


variation in who sits what exams when. They will be some schools to


link four subjects, some five or six, so not all children will come


out equal. Concerns as well up there and the Royal Society of


Edinburgh. In a report this weekend it concludes that evidence for the


effectiveness of the new curriculum is nowhere to be found. There are


assertions of success but no proper evidence. At the conference of the


EIS teaching union this week, concern surfaced in a call for


industrial action. Many teachers like the crippling in principle but


feel schools need an extra a year to prepare. -- the curriculum.


There is no doubt that many teachers believe that the


Curriculum for Excellence and the new exams have been hit by


bureaucracy. Most private schools and one local council have opted to


delay but the bulk of councils see no real need. I do not believe


there is a crisis of confidence. There are things we still need to


get right but it is worth remembering that the first exams


will not be presented for another two years. Two years to prepare and


a new package of support such as extra training days. They may help


but many teachers remain angry amid widespread claims that they were


excluded from government audit of problems. The audit was a scandal,


it barely skim the service of the discontent. The problems within the


report have yet to materialise so I think there is a great deal of


scepticism and then unless the current Secretary to this on his


promises them we will be revisiting industrial action. Outside the


union conference hall in Dundee and across Scotland, future generations


depend on the problems being resolved. We'll speak to the


Scottish Education Secretary Mike Russell in a moment, but first,


joining me now in Glasgow is the President of the Educational


Institute of Scotland, Susan Quinn and in our Edinburgh studio is the


Scottish Conservatives' spokesperson for Education, Liz


Smith. Do all teachers approve in


principle of the Curriculum for Excellence? The vast majority have


throughout the years supported the principles of the Curriculum for


Excellence. It is nothing new, it has been around for the best part


of eight years. It arose out of the national debate for Education and


four key capacities, the principles of once that teachers' support, to


give a broad education to all children before they move into


other aspects of their educational life. Given they have been around


for so long why were you at the point this week of saying you are


potentially going to go on strike? The debate we had this week was


about the national qualifications, it was not about the principles of


Curriculum for Excellence. It saddens me that what we are doing


now is discussing Curriculum for Excellence in the context of the


exams, when it is so much more than that. Eight years ago, when we


began the work on Curriculum for Excellence, EIS called on the


government to not Lynch new qualifications to the broad general


education, to give teachers the chance to implement the broad


general education. And then to move on to the new exams. They have not


done that and that is why teachers in the secondary sector are


concerned. Are you saying that in two years time, the pupils who have


to sit these exams will not have been properly prepared? Absolutely


not. They will be prepared, they will not be in a position where


children are not properly prepared. So there is no need for a delay in


the introduction of the Curriculum for Excellence? Curriculum for


Excellence is being implemented. We have not finished the final phase


of that. The exams or something which sits separately from them.


Some teachers say they do not yet have the test exam papers which


would enable them to construct the Curriculum for Excellence in


schools. Again, the Curriculum for Excellence is about the broad


general education aspect. The national qualifications are


something separate from fat. That is where the conflict arises. The


Curriculum for Excellence, and the broad general education from early


years through to the end of third year, is being implemented across


Scotland. The concern teachers have in the secondary sector is that


that is being done alongside a new set of qualifications. Had they let


the qualifications alone and let us get the brought education into


place then they would have been time to look at the new


qualifications. Liz Smith, you can see why that teachers and parents


we have spoken to about this have said it has become very confusing.


It is the confusion that is such a shame. Everybody is agreed that the


Curriculum for Excellence, in principle, is first class. Far too


many of our youngsters are going through school and not engaging


with the classroom and the whole principle under which Curriculum


for Excellence operates is that greater flexibility and greater


relevance. The real problem is that we should never have been in this


situation. This confusion should never have happened. It was


inevitable, in my opinion, that schools will be ready at different


stages. They are different sizes with different structures and it


was inevitable that we would have a situation where they would be ready


at different times. I think the Scottish government should have


recognised that. I also think the Scottish government should have


sent out a very clear message about what was expected when. That


message has not been forthcoming and that led to the confusion.


do you think all this means for pupils who will be sitting the


exams in a couple of years? I think the pupils, by and large, are part


of the confusion. They have seen their teachers and their parents


been confused as they try to get to grips with the new curriculum.


There are many schools doing a fantastic job and I am quite sure


that these pupils will be ready when the right time comes. Weather


can the Secretary has got this wrong is that he has tried to


steamroller of the timescale so there everybody was supposed to


change all at one time when there was not necessary. Do you think


that it is a little bit arbitrary in the sort of stunt as I we can


expect from schools over the next couple of years? -- sort of schools


-- skills. It is important that we have if flexibility and diversity.


That is coming from the teaching profession and many in the


educational establishment. What should underpin the whole


Curriculum for Excellence is a line that flexibility and that greater


diversity to flourish, and that is why we should have had a staged


timescale. Susan Quinn, let me pick up on something that Liz Smith


mentioned. The relations between the union and the Education


Secretary. A past president has said when Mr Russell starts to


acknowledge there is an issue he does so grudgingly and insist any a


small number of schools require help. This help comes with the


sinister, threatening tone. His EIS suggesting that the education


secretary has intimidated schools into not expressing their concerns?


There is a perception by many teachers in schools that if they


had expressed their opinions what will be put upon the will be a


visit from the inspectorate. So there is a perception that that is


what is there, if you put your head above the parapet to say we need


additional support in the new qualifications, and I repeat in the


area of the new qualifications, Kemp we have a situation where you


will be visited by the inspectorate, and many see that as intimidatory.


Is it you're on demand that Mr Russell's man and approaches


counter-productive to achieving a good result for pupils? I do not


think we should be looking at the personalities of what is counter-


productive. If you have said it is a sinister, threatening tone...


did not personally saved that. However expressed and said cut. We


want to make this support package work. Mr Russell and the rest of


government can make it work by putting it into place in the terms


that sets the additional days, the additional money and the additional


support, putting the resources in place, because teachers want to


make Curriculum for Excellence, broad general education, and the


new qualifications work for the young people that they are charged


with. Thanks both very much indeed. If we start with that point. Of the


resources there to sustain this adequately, not just for the first


set of people to go through this, but in the future? Absolutely, and


additional resources have been brought to bear in the last of the


-- in each of the last three years. There is an agreement we were


bringing an additional �0.5 million directly to support the teachers


themselves. We gave EIS the opportunity to bring forward


directly their concerns to education Scotland, to have those


examined. My job from the beginning has been to support teachers in a


process of change, which we have continued to do, and which we are


going to do in every regard. implication there was up the tone


that has been set has been intimidating enough to stop


teachers coming forward because inspectors will turn up the next


day. The inspectors will not turn up. Education Scotland is a body


which brings together the inspectors and the support services.


I have made it clear that my job, the job of everybody in education,


is to support schools and parents and young people. As long as they


do what you want. No, as long as we do together what we agreed to do


eight years ago, which was to put this programme in and make sure


that it goes through to completion. Then me ask you about this ongoing


confusion. We hear from parents that the Curriculum for Excellence


has widespread support but there are concerns about exams and the


public are not making the I think we need to talk to the


national parents' forum and dead people like dew into schools --


take people like you into schools. I could take you to one dozen


schools around Glasgow to see the enthusiasm and commitment of


teachers and young people to education which takes them forward


in a constructive way. We need to make sure that is what we are doing.


There aren't specimen exam papers available until next April saw


teachers trying to conduct a course at this stage which will be


appropriate are still working in the dark Ages. All the teaching


materials are coming forward, all the information is absolutely on


track. According to the management board on which the EIS six, the


material is there. Physics does not change in its laws, the grammar of


French does not change, it is about good teaching. There is very good


teaching in Scotland which we are constantly trying to drive up. More


than 10 years ago all the political parties in Scotland said we need a


more joined up deeper curriculum. It is not easy to change the


curriculum but we are almost there. We're actually now in year 10 of 13


years of schooling. We have to finish this job by supporting


teachers which is precisely what is happening. The Royal Society of


Edinburgh has said the curriculum for excellence is know where to be


found. There is no proper excellence. These are at the top


academics of the next generation. can assure you, they are not. They


are looking at one part of the equation, not be full equation. The


curriculum for excellence lies internationally, a lot of


international scholars have studied this and there is no doubt that


this is the way to do education in the modern world. The second place


it lies is the actual results we are seeing. We are seeing endless


results from primary school all the way through. There are


international comparative swear we have turned a corner compared to


many others and we are rising again. Does it not bother you that a body


is saying this? It bothers me that we are not, as a nation,


recognising the great strengths of the curriculum for excellence.


Later you will have Tom Hunter, I heard his inspirational speech, the


First Minister also commented on the importance of these changes in


Scottish classrooms. We need to get behind them and make them work.


Areas no strategy on how different parts of the education and skills


sector should be compared. released details last year of


precisely how that was going to work. We have other reports coming


out today, this one has been in the papers today, the figures are from


skills development Scotland which says 10,000 publicly-funded


apprenticeships when two young people already in jobs. Of course


the dead because you have to have a job. This is a disgrace from a


Labour Party press release which says unfortunately do understand.


You have to support young people. have to explain the question first


and then you can respond to it. The question is, at 10,000 publicly-


funded apprenticeships when two young people who were in jobs for


more than six months already. does not say that. You have to be


accurate. A Labour Party press release will say something that is


untrue. What it says it is they have been in jobs for up to six


months. A young person will be taken in by an employer who will


assess their suitability for an apprenticeship. Every young person


in Scotland must have a job, that is what distinguishes a Modern


apprenticeship, they have to work. This is a party who voted against


modern apprenticeships, they are now running down Scotland's young


people. I would call that a disgrace because we should be


working together to make sure young people get opportunities. 25,000 of


them last year. As a nation we have to keep together on these things


because we have a problem and if we do that we will do it well. Let me


press on a couple of points. This is from a Labour Party press


release. The response is from skills development Scotland. Skills


development Scotland does say it mentions the figures of being in


jobs for six months or less but also relating to that are you


categorically saying here that 10,000 publicly-funded


apprenticeships did not go do young people who were in jobs for six


months? Every single modern apprenticeship is helping young


people in their modern Terriers to get jobs. We should be celebrating


that not criticising it. -- Modern apprenticeships -- modern Terriers.


Did they not already have jobs? They had a learning opportunity and


went into an even better one. Thank goodness we put our money into


supporting young people. You are seeing modern apprenticeships by


the sustained or extended in some cases existing employment? That is


precisely what we should be doing as an Asian. Every were focusing on


that be would be building the type of nation we need for the future.


Are you focusing enough on the young people who cannot get jobs?


No 16 to 19-year-old of any description who does not have a job


will get education or training. We recognise the disaster of the


Thatcherite years when there was a lost generation. We are determined


to ensure that will not happen again. Labour Party press releases


running down job schemes that they never voted for our an utter


disgrace. Thank you for coming in, Mike Russell. Now, flags change the


way people think is the finding of research by political scientists at


Strathclyde University. They asked about issues like national pride


and the economy. More than 10,000 people across the UK took part in


the online survey but what they did not also realise was that the


responses to national flags were also being tested. A couple of


months ago on this programme and on other parts of the BBC we asked you


to let us know what you felt about the nation. More than 10,000 of you


click on the Strathclyde University website to answer a quick quiz.


This is the sort of thing they saw, a series of quick questions asking


about the economy and that the top of each page a little flag. Even


though they answered similar questions, not everyone saw the


same thing. The survey randomly designed each person a different


design depending on where the left. People who said they lived in


Scotland might have seen a series of pages like best, the same


questions but this time with a Saltire. In England you might have


seen as St George's cross. The point was not just to find out how


people felt about the nation but to find out how seeing different flags


might altar how they feel. The findings are that flags do make a


difference. Firstly an emotional issue, national pride. Over all


those who lived in England felt negatively about being English.


People who were shown the Union flag felt more proud of being


English but were still on the negative side of the graph. Compare


that to the Scots, neither the Saltire nor union flag had a


significant effect on the national pride which was on the whole


confident. On both sides of the border people who sought the


neutral or Union flag felt positive about the current economic


situation but look what happened if they saw either of the national


flags, it fell into the negative. The Saltire had a stronger negative


effect on people's feelings about the current financial situation in


Scotland. That could be a sign of anxiety rather than reminding


people of being Scottish or British it makes them feel less in control


of the situation in the UK and hard done by. Or could it be an


unconscious feeling by the Scots that doing it alone would be better


in an independent economy? These flags seemed to trigger unconscious


gut responses which applies to allegedly emotional issues like


national pride. We need to attach plenty of caveat to best, not least


of all because many of them watch this programme we could expect them


to be more political savvy than most. During the forthcoming


European football championships the George's cross will be hard to


avoid. If you want to change how people feel, put out more flags,


but which ones? With me in the studio is someone from the research


team at Strathclyde University and another professor. Even with the


national question like the economy there does still seem to be some


emotional reaction when there is a flag around? We thought this was


interesting because there is a tendency to distinguish between the


emotional gut responses to a national flag and more rational


opinions about the economy. When you are triggering national


identity which is traditionally associated with your gut instincts


it also affected how you looked at the economy. National questions


seem to be shaped when people triggered more emotional responses


to their national identity. How do you actually interpret the


response? If somebody sees as Saltire in the background and they


have a specific response to it you may think that is because they do


not think Scotland can survive independently or because they are


frustrated at what they see as Scotland's resources going south.


We have to be really clear in this research it is not representative,


it is a particular set of people who responded to the survey and the


dapper we get does not allow you to interpret Withey said what the dead.


-- the data. -- what the dead. This sets up our next research programme


which is to look at when people are triggered in a particular direction


what made them do that? Research only ever conclusively proves the


need for more research? In this particular case it was an


experiment rather than a survey. Tom, what do you make of what is


coming out here? Should parties wrap themselves up in flags or not?


There are two things. The first thing has been implied already that


decisions on big issues are not necessarily completely rational or


completely emotional. They are a combination of both. The second


thing is that this is a very unusual piece of research. It is


not meant to be representative but what this kind of research does is


stir new questions rather than in a sense give new answers. One of the


things about flags recently and not least in the UK, by that I mean


Northern Ireland as well, is that flag use has become pretty heavily


politicised. You will note probably from this research that as far as


England is concerned there are a small minority in England who do


not regard the Union Jack as something positive because it has


been taken over, as some say, by extreme right-wing groups. Up here


in Scotland other people might have concerns about the Union Jack for


different reasons. In Northern Ireland these symbols are extra


ordinarily controversial and important. The final thing I would


say about this is we should not overestimate, in terms of national


identity, any single symbol. National identity is a confused mix


of everything from mythology through to landscape, through to a


belief in who our heroes are. What makes us like that? The flag is not


irrelevant but it is not the only flag. Does it make it difficult for


politicians if you are seeing I will put forward some very


persuasive arguments based on evidence and be confident I can


persuade you but what we are actually seeing here is it does not


matter what the evidence says, something else is influencing an


emotional response. What is influencing that? Is it your


upbringing, what you Peden has got? We are seeing positive psychology


here. It is a totality. I think it is fantastic that this is the case


that politicians, their spin doctors and their focus groups can


understand what makes us tick. I would see this as a positive and


refreshing aspect of the human race. What is happening now do you think?


The big things to have a look at our the different symbols that


relate to identity. Breaking that down further I think is interesting.


The relationship that we find between the Union Jack and positive


feelings of English identity were quite interesting and in particular


this discussion about English identity at the moment, whether or


not that is synonymous between UK and English identity would be quite


England has assumed since the 18th century that England and Britain


are synonymous, so there is no need for an English identity. Now the


flag issue is part of that struggle to find an identity in a territory


that is quite controversial. Would there be any benefit in getting the


responses of an individual to the different flags, as opposed to a


series of individuals with the same flag, which is what happened in


this exercise? There are lots of different ways that you could


conduct this exercise. The problem is that if you expose the same


person to a number of ways of doing it then that affects the results.


More research to be done. Definitely.


It's been exactly a week since it emerged that there had been an


outbreak of Legionnaires' disease in Edinburgh. Cases of the deadly


disease are expected to decrease this week but health officials say


they cannot yet be sure the outbreak has reached its peak.


Let's cross to the newsroom now for an update with Andrew Kerr. Andrew,


what's the latest? The Health Secretary, Nicholas Sturgeon, will


once again chair a meeting at 2pm this afternoon of all the key


bodies involved in trying to work on this outbreak. After that


meeting we will hear at 3pm to latest update on the number of


suspected cases. The latest figure we have from yesterday were 80


confirmed and suspected cases of Legionnaires' disease. Cases are


expected to decrease this week but health officials cannot yet be sure


that the outbreak has reached his peak. At the moment we are still


looking at the source of the outbreak. Four cooling towers Hart


suspected in four sites in Edinburgh. An improvement notice


has been served on North British Distillery. We will bring the


latest update here on BBC Scotland at 3pm.


The unfolding situation in Edinburgh has brought back memories


for the community of Barrow-in- Furness in Cumbria - which is about


to commemorate the tenth anniversary of the worst outbreak


of Legionnaires' in the UK. Almost 200 people in the town contracted


the disease and seven people died. At first Bill Merewood thought his


wife Christine had a bad dose of the flu - but within days she was


fighting for her life. The Saturday morning the doctor checked and the


sooner she by dint of hospitals they did further checked and


confirm that it was Legionnaires' disease. We did not realise how


serious it was, even then. The 56- year-old, who was originally from


Rutherglen, was one of seven people to die in the Legionnaires'


outbreak in Barrow-in-Furness in August 2002. Brenda Sedgewick was


one of the 180 people who contracted the disease, she says


she's lucky to be alive. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and sweaty.


Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious. And then I


got septicaemia and pneumonia, all the organs failed, induced coma,


and they did not know how or when they brought the out of the Como


what would happen. Jo Davis covered the story for the North West


Evening Mail, she remembers the atmosphere in the town as the


number of cases diagnosed rapidly increased. Because nobody knew


where the outbreak occurred, nobody knew how to protect themselves. It


was a very concerning time. Then we had the very sad news that some


people had died and we just could not comprehend that this was


happening in a small town like this. The source of the outbreak was


traced here - an arts complex in the town centre. It was discovered


that contaminated water had been leaking from an air conditioning


system into this alley way. They all said that it was down this


particular alley so it was fairly obvious that it was discharging


into the alley way. Although there were one or two industrial sources


that we had to eliminate as well. The task facing the team in


Edinburgh is considerably larger. Barrow Borough Council didn't want


to take part in this film. It was fined, along with one of its


architects, for breaches of health and safety. It's almost ten years


on but emotions are still raw. There are lessons to be learned,


are on there? I still get a lot of flashbacks, thinking they should


not have happened. If things were followed rightly, it should not


have happened. Like he should not have happened in Scotland, but


these things do. The question of how prepared the


economy is to withstand a deterioration in the rest of Europe


over the coming months was one of the issues discussed at the


Business in Parliament conference at Holyrood this week. We'll be


hearing from the entrepreneur Sir Tom Hunter shortly, but first our


reporter Gilly Mathieson has been talking to businesses across


Scotland to find out their concerns. One of flight's little luxuries.


Scotland's food and drink industry is continuing to boom with all-time


high exports of �5.4 bn last year. But despite record sales, the


credit squeeze is having an impact. It is making us more careful with


whom we give credit to. We have taken some losses per share were


people who have gone bankrupt and it puts uncertainty into the


investment programme. We are investing but the tears and her


first time. In Edinburgh, 14th Alex is seeing a growth in output after


winning back orders from the Far East -- Maclaren Plastics. We have


to think inevitably, we have to maximise the amount of time that we


use our planned for, and generally become as competitive as we can.


was the ambition of Alison Grieves to move production of her products


from China to her business HQ in Edinburgh. We have price matching


here on our doorstep which is propelling us forward and it does


dispel the myth that manufacturing in the Far East is a lot cheaper.


Safetray began as a start-up three years ago and is now exporting


across the world but it had to exchange equity for capital in


order to expand. Safetray as a company has benefited from doing


that, however there are other high- growth companies that are still


finding it really tough to get that money. The factory is working


around the clock but its owner police that uncertainty over the


referendum could lose him business. We are not quite sure when


developing products about putting new product lines down. There is


talk about it and it does concern us for the future. Sandra


Paterson's business is being mounted by Entrepreneurial Spark,


an initiative supported by a Sir Tom Hunter, of giving free office


space and support to allow her to expand. We have been able to use


the money and resources that we would have spent on offices and


space on a staff, we have taken on a modern apprentice and a full-time


manager. Scotland is a nation of inventors who shaped the modern


world, but with challenging time to cross the globe, what more can we


be doing today to insure business thrives in this uncertain world.


Sir Tom Hunter was the key speaker at the business conference in


Holyrood. Just after that speech he told me we should be setting our


sights on a new Scottish Enlightenment. In these the


collaboration of business, education, politicians, trade


unions, the third sector. Scotland is small enough to be able to do


this. Indeed, I think we need to do it or would be left behind. Do we


have enough of the fiscal levers to do it? Again, I am for fiscal


autonomy for very simple reasons. If you were a business that any had


one side of the equation, which was you have the cheque book but no


control over hope to raise the finance, that is a recipe for


disaster. I think Scotland should have both sides of that equation,


which is fiscal autonomy. Can that rain would be established in


Scotland stays within the UK or do we have to start with a clean


slate? I do not know the answer to that question. I am willing to


listen. I am really interested in this debate but we need to have


that debate. One thing I do know is we cannot put things on hold for


two years while we worry about this. We have to make changes today.


that a concern for you, that the constitutional debate will


overshadow everything? If people go, OK, we will wait until we know,


then two years as an awful long time in today's business world.


pot of the key issues in this debate of most interest to you?


What will most interest the Scottish people, everybody will say


how was it could to affect me? Everybody will be slightly


different. I think it is for the politicians to answer these


questions. What interests me? One of the key things for staying in


the union, is it just the status quo, or can there be more positive


things to come out of staying in the Union? If it is independence,


Wallaby to me as a businessman? What is going to happen with our


tax regime? Will we be able to export more easily? All of these


sorts of questions need to be answered. Do you think there is any


value in moving the day forward, or de think we need the time to have


the full debate? So far, I believe we need the time because we have


not even started yet. What sort of effect you think the constitutional


debate is having on the business environment? My impression is I


understand big utility companies, big companies who want to. Capital


many years in advance would be St which environment and by deploying


this capital into? I think there is uncertainty for them and I


understand that. The breast of it, I do not really see it holding back


investment. What impact is the euro crisis having on Scottish business?


The European question, up from a businessman point of view, is


number one of the present time. But the very fact that, faced with


calamity, the European Union cannot actually get its act together and


sold it, actually answers the question. This union is not really


be union, it is unworkable. 17 countries in single currency, or


many more countries tried come together. The very fact they have


not been able to come when the stakes are so high and fix this


tells me everything about trying to herd everybody with very different


agendas together. So what do you think is the answer? Could this,


thing that is way above my pay scale! It is very high, then!


think one of the interesting things would be if Greece was to exit the


next he make a coat of it then European politicians would be


really worried. But I think change news to happened there. I do not


know what the changes, but that status quo is not acceptable.


your opinion that the Westminster government is right to be as


unsupportive as it is being at the moment? I think Britain is in a


better place by not joining the European single currency,


definitely. Our currency conflate, which is important. I am not for a


federal Europe. Do you see any problems with Scotland where it to


become independent continuing to use the paint? Had he not think so.


But some scare mongering exist, but these are the questions that we


need to get to. Can we keep the pound? Can we set our own interest


rates? These are the questions that need answered, not whether we are


going to have a flag or whatever, that is to be dealt with later. Let


us deal with the big questions first. Property retail was badly


affected, how difficult has it been for you? We have had to reinvent


ourselves. For many years, our business was going in an upward any


direction. But, frankly, through our own fault, we lost the focus.


People say, maybe nobody saw the downturn coming. Yes, they did.


Clever people saw the downturn coming and made lots of money from


it. We just were not good at it, therefore I have to look at myself,


take responsibility and we intend. We have had to take some tough


decisions, some tough medicine, but we have done that, we have


regrouped, and I'm glad to say we What is it about as as Scots? Are


we more risk adverse or less business savvy? I do not know. I do


wonder sometimes if we have failed but I am not giving up. If we look


at Scotland's history. Where I was brought up was a deep coal-mining


community. We were dominated by a these kind of industries. When I


was at school I was told go down the pit, a job for life, someone


else will take care of you. But guess what, no coalmines in


Scotland any more, no shipbuilding. We are still educating our children


by and large the same but into a very different world. There are no


jobs for life any more. We need to be equipping our kids with a can-do


attitude, an independent thought and a questioning mind that can


deal with whatever is going to come their way. I do not know what is


going to happen in the next 20 years but I know change is going to


be rapid and if Scotland is going to be at the forefront of that we


meet a generation that feels confident in this ever-changing


world. What would give them that confidence? An education that


instils that in them. You only experience of education you were


talking about. My ear -- Real Education was working in my dad's


shot from a very early age. Business was talked about around


the kitchen table. His business something you can learn or is it a


personal characteristic rather than an intellectual exercise? Nature


and nurture is the big question. You are going to have your natural


born entrepreneur's and you're a natural born sports people but with


a bit of encouragement and the right education we can all become a


bit more entrepreneurial. To get back to the constitutional issue,


should it be a simple yes or no on the ballot paper? I think it is


interesting. I think the Scottish National Party cannot really goal


for a yes or no if they think they are going to lose because then they


will say there is no mandate to govern. At some point they are


going to have to say will we put a third question on the ballot paper.


Once the third question goes on I think it is inevitable that they


will not get a clean yes. Do you think it is inevitable there will


be a devo max question? I do not know. I am talking -- watching with


interest. Do you very good instincts suggest that? I have not


made up my mind. I am confused and I am really interested in this


stuff. I am looking forward to a positive debate because it is so


important. It has not been positive until now do you think? I think it


has been skirmishes around the edges and a bit of a pantomime.


When you decide will you go public about your decision before you


vote? I am conscious that I have one vote the same as you have and I


am conscious of what it should be but I think I will make up my mind


and then I will think of what to do. So you may go public? Some people


will say it could be persuasive if somebody with a successful business


profile like you have, if you decide it is a good idea, it could


be persuasive. Do you accept that? You do not have any false modesty?


I think it is a burden. I have got to decide whether I want to play


that role or not. I think first of all I have got to find out what I


really think. A burden in what sense? If I thought other people


were going to go the way I was going to go it makes it even more


important that I get it right. Tom Hunter there, let's cross back


over to Andrew for the lunchtime news. The number of young people


getting apprenticeships has been mismatched according to Scottish


Labour. They claim many had already been working in a job for over six


months. The Scottish Government say they are committed to maximising


employability for young people. What the Government are doing is


very bad gene people in work as apprentices while people on the


dole queue are suffering as a consequence. A man has died at a


music festival in Loch Ness. He took ill in the main arena last


night and died in a nearby hospital a short time later. The Olympic


Torch has arrived in Scotland's Islands. Thousands of people turned


out to see it. Our reporter is following its progress. We are


flying in the next hour or so to Shetland and from there it will


split, it goes into a Norwegian longboat and the rest of the flame


will go around Lerwick, then we will head to Stornoway. Three


islands in one day for the torch. We hope that the torch and the


flame will be enriched by its visit to Orkney. Now a look at the


weather. Nothing too dramatic happening this afternoon. A lot of


cloud around. We will see some brightness. We will see outbreaks


of patchy light rain or drizzle continuing in the Central Lowlands


in particular and across the south- west. It will be quite cool. That


is all for now. Our next bulletin is at 6: 20 this evening. Thank you


for that. This week it is a political who's to at the Leveson


Inquiry. I will hand you back to my colleague for more. David Cameron


is up on Thursday. Many people before him, you will be spoiled for


things to write about all over the Leveson Inquiry. That's right. They


will be struggling for top billing. All we need is some gumboots and a


pop up tend. I think they will cancel each other out and the


issues may be lost. The most interesting will be David Cameron.


Did he come to a deal with the Murdoch corporation to support


their bid for BSkyB before it the 2010 election? The Channel 4


Dispatches documentary tomorrow will claim exactly that. How much


do you think he will be able to see given that there is a police


investigation under way? I am sorry, I think Ian did not hear me asking


that question. I get, sorry, my apologies. -- I did. There is


clearly an issue here, Andy Coulson the former No. 10 adviser who was


the former News of the World editor, he has been charged with perjury


following comments he made in relation to phone hacking in the


Tommy Sheridan case. There are complexities here. And what do you


think will be the key points potentially to come out of the


Leveson Inquiry this week? Ironically this inquiry was meant


to be set up because of the phone hacking issue. The legal problems


mean that it is the one issue they have been unable to delve into very


much. There is suspicion Alex Salmond's phone could have been


hacked. Police are looking at allegations that the form of his


dead and the phone of the former First Minister Jack McConnell had


been hacked. -- phone of his aide. He had this relationship with the


Murdoch press in Scotland where they were very supportive in the


run up to the last election. The one to keep them on side for the


referendum campaign. There is that issue and there is also Salmond's


adviser appealing to say that they would be happy to pick up the phone


to Jeremy Hunt in regards to the BSkyB bid if that would be helpful


to the Murdoch Corporation. These are the two big issues. Alex


Salmond wanted his the in the limelight at Leveson -- the -- day.


Before he came forward and told us if his phone had been hacked.


appropriate for the First Minister to decline to answer that issue


about phone hacking? I was applying the rule of what would happen if


the situation had been reversed. I think the SNP would be having a go


at a Labour First Minister for doing this. He is going on a


precedent which has been set by the UK coalition Government, by David


Cameron who himself has said his connections with Jeremy Hunt and


the phone hacking scandal were to be examined by the Leveson


inquiries so there was no need for any further investigation. I think


the Scottish public have already got the message here. We have got a


newspaper magnate who was so powerful and influential that no


politician, David Cameron, Alex Salmond, to resist them. They all


wanted to get into bed with Murdoch because they thought Murdoch was


the way to win elections. I do not think this will she that public


perception very much. The question now is what happens about it. I am


getting very worried because we often focus on these extremist


issues and forget that Leveson is about press regulation. He is


minded to bring statutory members - - statutory rules to punish members


of the press. I think if that is going to happen depress should get


in there early and see if there is going to be a new statute then line


one has to be freedom of the press in Britain. There is a danger that


because everyone has been so interested in some of the details


this could bring about a fundamental change in what the


press can report, what kind of investigations, have we missed that


picture? I think sadly that Leveson on a daily basis has degenerated


into a soap opera. Did murder by address for Rebekah Brooks? Real a


sideshow issues that has changed this from assets than to give media


debate. David Cameron is at least able to stand up now and do


anything. He instituted the Leveson inquiry to try to get away from


them. I think that short-term political opportunism, the press


may well find themselves in a difficult situation. I think we


have seen some people wake up to best, one man some weeks ago was


able to stand up and it was seen as part of his future leadership


ambitions possibly. He was able to stand up as a former journalist and


say hang on a minute, let's look at where we are going with this, of


what the future press will look like and what it will mean for our


democracy in the UK if we go down this road. We have seen people


wanting to get through it without any mud sticking to them and to


just go with the fashion seeing it has been a disgrace, it has been


terrible, one newspaper who had an out of control culture of doing


things that were not journalism. Does that mean proper journalism


will suffer as a result? There have been too many people around the


sides of best like the Guardian with their own agenda, people have


to weaken up and realise what it will mean for all of us. We are out


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.

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