10/06/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/06/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Shadow Education Secretary Stephen Twigg.


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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Spain is heading

:00:36.:00:42.

for a massive 100 billion euro bailout of its dodgy banks. But is

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it big enough? As the Chancellor blames the Euro crisis for

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Britain's economic woes, we'll get the view from the City. That's our

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top story. When it comes to reforming our schools, who is the

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true heir to Blair? Secretary of State Michael Gove or his Labour

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counterpart, Stephen Twigg? The Shadow Education Secretary joins us

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for the Sunday interview. And should the Government perform the

:01:05.:01:08.

mother of all U-turns yet and give the go-ahead for a third runaway at

:01:09.:01:18.
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Heathrow? The two sides go head-to- head on airport expansion.

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Here in Scotland, the number of people affected by the legionnaires

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outbreak was expected to peak this weekend - we'll have the latest.

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And the multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir

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Tom Hunter on how to create a second Scottish enlightenment. All

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1586 seconds

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Do we have enough of the big provincial towns? Frankfurt,

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Germany is a country with strong environmental cues. It has played

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down an area of the forest to create a new runway. It took five

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years to get that decision, What what happened if we do not

:28:39.:28:47.

have a new runway? Our economy is based on of the reach a mobile

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society. You can think of London as an aircraft carrier where people

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fly in, to their business, and fly out. The Thames estuary is that the

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far eastern tip of England. There are areas like Reading, Swindon and

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the rest of the country for which Heathrow is the nearest airport.

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Let us get real. He has challenged the aviation industry to get real

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about the facts. Business travel has declined as a result of

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business confidence and all the rest. We know that passenger it

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looting on the individual airlines has increased by 20%, said more

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:29:47.:30:01.

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up

:30:01.:30:06.

on the programme. Classroom strikes are off for now, but teachers'

:30:06.:30:09.

unions insist the new curriculum for excellence needs more time and

:30:09.:30:14.

more cash. We hear from the education secretary, Mike Russell.

:30:14.:30:16.

Multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter on

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his vision for a second Scottish enlightenment, and what could make

:30:19.:30:24.

that happen - including full fiscal autonomy. And, is he for or against

:30:24.:30:33.

independence? I have not made up my mind. I am confused, that is where

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I find myself today, and I am really interested in this stuff,

:30:37.:30:42.

and I am confused. I am looking forward to a positive debate

:30:42.:30:45.

because it is so important. And as Scotland reels from an unexpected

:30:45.:30:48.

outbreak of Legionella, we hear from people in Barrow-in-Furness in

:30:48.:30:52.

Cumbria, who are about to mark the tenth anniversary of the worst

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outbreak of the disease in the UK. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and

:31:01.:31:07.

sweaty. Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious.

:31:07.:31:10.

A highly critical new report suggests there's no evidence the

:31:10.:31:13.

new Curriculum for Excellence is an effective way of teaching our young

:31:13.:31:17.

people. Teachers say they like it in principle - but don't rule out

:31:17.:31:20.

industrial action over the way it has been implemented. This report

:31:20.:31:30.
:31:30.:31:30.

from our education correspondent, Seonag MacKinnon.

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Problems along insoluble in Scottish education. The new

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curriculum is out to tackle them. Teachers are now free to teach what

:31:40.:31:45.

they feel is interesting. It is hoped this freedom will add more

:31:45.:31:53.

dynamism to the classroom. The family has been trying to get the

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head to read other changes. For Anna, her education free of exam

:31:58.:32:02.

courses now continues into the third year. We will not be choosing

:32:02.:32:05.

our main subjects from such an early age so we will know better

:32:05.:32:10.

what we want to do. Her mother is concerned about the increased

:32:10.:32:15.

variation in who sits what exams when. They will be some schools to

:32:15.:32:19.

link four subjects, some five or six, so not all children will come

:32:19.:32:25.

out equal. Concerns as well up there and the Royal Society of

:32:25.:32:29.

Edinburgh. In a report this weekend it concludes that evidence for the

:32:29.:32:34.

effectiveness of the new curriculum is nowhere to be found. There are

:32:34.:32:40.

assertions of success but no proper evidence. At the conference of the

:32:40.:32:44.

EIS teaching union this week, concern surfaced in a call for

:32:45.:32:49.

industrial action. Many teachers like the crippling in principle but

:32:49.:32:54.

feel schools need an extra a year to prepare. -- the curriculum.

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There is no doubt that many teachers believe that the

:32:57.:33:01.

Curriculum for Excellence and the new exams have been hit by

:33:01.:33:07.

bureaucracy. Most private schools and one local council have opted to

:33:07.:33:12.

delay but the bulk of councils see no real need. I do not believe

:33:12.:33:16.

there is a crisis of confidence. There are things we still need to

:33:16.:33:19.

get right but it is worth remembering that the first exams

:33:19.:33:25.

will not be presented for another two years. Two years to prepare and

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a new package of support such as extra training days. They may help

:33:29.:33:34.

but many teachers remain angry amid widespread claims that they were

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excluded from government audit of problems. The audit was a scandal,

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it barely skim the service of the discontent. The problems within the

:33:45.:33:48.

report have yet to materialise so I think there is a great deal of

:33:48.:33:51.

scepticism and then unless the current Secretary to this on his

:33:51.:33:56.

promises them we will be revisiting industrial action. Outside the

:33:56.:34:01.

union conference hall in Dundee and across Scotland, future generations

:34:01.:34:05.

depend on the problems being resolved. We'll speak to the

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Scottish Education Secretary Mike Russell in a moment, but first,

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joining me now in Glasgow is the President of the Educational

:34:11.:34:15.

Institute of Scotland, Susan Quinn and in our Edinburgh studio is the

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Scottish Conservatives' spokesperson for Education, Liz

:34:16.:34:22.

Smith. Do all teachers approve in

:34:22.:34:27.

principle of the Curriculum for Excellence? The vast majority have

:34:27.:34:31.

throughout the years supported the principles of the Curriculum for

:34:31.:34:35.

Excellence. It is nothing new, it has been around for the best part

:34:35.:34:40.

of eight years. It arose out of the national debate for Education and

:34:40.:34:45.

four key capacities, the principles of once that teachers' support, to

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give a broad education to all children before they move into

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other aspects of their educational life. Given they have been around

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for so long why were you at the point this week of saying you are

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potentially going to go on strike? The debate we had this week was

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about the national qualifications, it was not about the principles of

:35:05.:35:08.

Curriculum for Excellence. It saddens me that what we are doing

:35:08.:35:12.

now is discussing Curriculum for Excellence in the context of the

:35:12.:35:16.

exams, when it is so much more than that. Eight years ago, when we

:35:16.:35:20.

began the work on Curriculum for Excellence, EIS called on the

:35:20.:35:24.

government to not Lynch new qualifications to the broad general

:35:24.:35:28.

education, to give teachers the chance to implement the broad

:35:28.:35:33.

general education. And then to move on to the new exams. They have not

:35:33.:35:36.

done that and that is why teachers in the secondary sector are

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concerned. Are you saying that in two years time, the pupils who have

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to sit these exams will not have been properly prepared? Absolutely

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not. They will be prepared, they will not be in a position where

:35:55.:36:00.

children are not properly prepared. So there is no need for a delay in

:36:00.:36:03.

the introduction of the Curriculum for Excellence? Curriculum for

:36:03.:36:07.

Excellence is being implemented. We have not finished the final phase

:36:07.:36:11.

of that. The exams or something which sits separately from them.

:36:11.:36:15.

Some teachers say they do not yet have the test exam papers which

:36:15.:36:19.

would enable them to construct the Curriculum for Excellence in

:36:19.:36:24.

schools. Again, the Curriculum for Excellence is about the broad

:36:24.:36:28.

general education aspect. The national qualifications are

:36:28.:36:33.

something separate from fat. That is where the conflict arises. The

:36:33.:36:40.

Curriculum for Excellence, and the broad general education from early

:36:40.:36:42.

years through to the end of third year, is being implemented across

:36:42.:36:47.

Scotland. The concern teachers have in the secondary sector is that

:36:47.:36:52.

that is being done alongside a new set of qualifications. Had they let

:36:52.:36:56.

the qualifications alone and let us get the brought education into

:36:56.:36:59.

place then they would have been time to look at the new

:36:59.:37:04.

qualifications. Liz Smith, you can see why that teachers and parents

:37:04.:37:09.

we have spoken to about this have said it has become very confusing.

:37:09.:37:14.

It is the confusion that is such a shame. Everybody is agreed that the

:37:14.:37:18.

Curriculum for Excellence, in principle, is first class. Far too

:37:18.:37:22.

many of our youngsters are going through school and not engaging

:37:22.:37:24.

with the classroom and the whole principle under which Curriculum

:37:24.:37:28.

for Excellence operates is that greater flexibility and greater

:37:28.:37:33.

relevance. The real problem is that we should never have been in this

:37:33.:37:37.

situation. This confusion should never have happened. It was

:37:37.:37:40.

inevitable, in my opinion, that schools will be ready at different

:37:40.:37:44.

stages. They are different sizes with different structures and it

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was inevitable that we would have a situation where they would be ready

:37:49.:37:52.

at different times. I think the Scottish government should have

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recognised that. I also think the Scottish government should have

:37:56.:38:00.

sent out a very clear message about what was expected when. That

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message has not been forthcoming and that led to the confusion.

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do you think all this means for pupils who will be sitting the

:38:07.:38:13.

exams in a couple of years? I think the pupils, by and large, are part

:38:13.:38:17.

of the confusion. They have seen their teachers and their parents

:38:17.:38:21.

been confused as they try to get to grips with the new curriculum.

:38:21.:38:24.

There are many schools doing a fantastic job and I am quite sure

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that these pupils will be ready when the right time comes. Weather

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can the Secretary has got this wrong is that he has tried to

:38:34.:38:36.

steamroller of the timescale so there everybody was supposed to

:38:36.:38:40.

change all at one time when there was not necessary. Do you think

:38:41.:38:45.

that it is a little bit arbitrary in the sort of stunt as I we can

:38:45.:38:51.

expect from schools over the next couple of years? -- sort of schools

:38:51.:38:58.

-- skills. It is important that we have if flexibility and diversity.

:38:58.:39:02.

That is coming from the teaching profession and many in the

:39:02.:39:05.

educational establishment. What should underpin the whole

:39:05.:39:08.

Curriculum for Excellence is a line that flexibility and that greater

:39:08.:39:12.

diversity to flourish, and that is why we should have had a staged

:39:12.:39:18.

timescale. Susan Quinn, let me pick up on something that Liz Smith

:39:18.:39:22.

mentioned. The relations between the union and the Education

:39:23.:39:26.

Secretary. A past president has said when Mr Russell starts to

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acknowledge there is an issue he does so grudgingly and insist any a

:39:31.:39:36.

small number of schools require help. This help comes with the

:39:36.:39:42.

sinister, threatening tone. His EIS suggesting that the education

:39:42.:39:47.

secretary has intimidated schools into not expressing their concerns?

:39:48.:39:51.

There is a perception by many teachers in schools that if they

:39:52.:39:56.

had expressed their opinions what will be put upon the will be a

:39:56.:40:00.

visit from the inspectorate. So there is a perception that that is

:40:00.:40:04.

what is there, if you put your head above the parapet to say we need

:40:04.:40:09.

additional support in the new qualifications, and I repeat in the

:40:09.:40:13.

area of the new qualifications, Kemp we have a situation where you

:40:13.:40:19.

will be visited by the inspectorate, and many see that as intimidatory.

:40:19.:40:22.

Is it you're on demand that Mr Russell's man and approaches

:40:22.:40:26.

counter-productive to achieving a good result for pupils? I do not

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think we should be looking at the personalities of what is counter-

:40:30.:40:35.

productive. If you have said it is a sinister, threatening tone...

:40:35.:40:40.

did not personally saved that. However expressed and said cut. We

:40:40.:40:46.

want to make this support package work. Mr Russell and the rest of

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government can make it work by putting it into place in the terms

:40:49.:40:54.

that sets the additional days, the additional money and the additional

:40:54.:41:00.

support, putting the resources in place, because teachers want to

:41:00.:41:03.

make Curriculum for Excellence, broad general education, and the

:41:03.:41:05.

new qualifications work for the young people that they are charged

:41:05.:41:15.
:41:15.:41:17.

with. Thanks both very much indeed. If we start with that point. Of the

:41:17.:41:22.

resources there to sustain this adequately, not just for the first

:41:22.:41:26.

set of people to go through this, but in the future? Absolutely, and

:41:26.:41:31.

additional resources have been brought to bear in the last of the

:41:31.:41:35.

-- in each of the last three years. There is an agreement we were

:41:35.:41:41.

bringing an additional �0.5 million directly to support the teachers

:41:41.:41:48.

themselves. We gave EIS the opportunity to bring forward

:41:48.:41:53.

directly their concerns to education Scotland, to have those

:41:53.:41:57.

examined. My job from the beginning has been to support teachers in a

:41:57.:42:01.

process of change, which we have continued to do, and which we are

:42:01.:42:05.

going to do in every regard. implication there was up the tone

:42:05.:42:07.

that has been set has been intimidating enough to stop

:42:07.:42:12.

teachers coming forward because inspectors will turn up the next

:42:12.:42:17.

day. The inspectors will not turn up. Education Scotland is a body

:42:17.:42:21.

which brings together the inspectors and the support services.

:42:21.:42:26.

I have made it clear that my job, the job of everybody in education,

:42:26.:42:31.

is to support schools and parents and young people. As long as they

:42:31.:42:36.

do what you want. No, as long as we do together what we agreed to do

:42:36.:42:39.

eight years ago, which was to put this programme in and make sure

:42:39.:42:44.

that it goes through to completion. Then me ask you about this ongoing

:42:44.:42:48.

confusion. We hear from parents that the Curriculum for Excellence

:42:48.:42:56.

has widespread support but there are concerns about exams and the

:42:56.:43:06.
:43:06.:43:08.

public are not making the I think we need to talk to the

:43:08.:43:16.

national parents' forum and dead people like dew into schools --

:43:16.:43:20.

take people like you into schools. I could take you to one dozen

:43:20.:43:24.

schools around Glasgow to see the enthusiasm and commitment of

:43:24.:43:29.

teachers and young people to education which takes them forward

:43:29.:43:34.

in a constructive way. We need to make sure that is what we are doing.

:43:34.:43:40.

There aren't specimen exam papers available until next April saw

:43:40.:43:45.

teachers trying to conduct a course at this stage which will be

:43:45.:43:50.

appropriate are still working in the dark Ages. All the teaching

:43:50.:43:54.

materials are coming forward, all the information is absolutely on

:43:54.:43:59.

track. According to the management board on which the EIS six, the

:43:59.:44:06.

material is there. Physics does not change in its laws, the grammar of

:44:06.:44:11.

French does not change, it is about good teaching. There is very good

:44:11.:44:16.

teaching in Scotland which we are constantly trying to drive up. More

:44:16.:44:21.

than 10 years ago all the political parties in Scotland said we need a

:44:21.:44:26.

more joined up deeper curriculum. It is not easy to change the

:44:26.:44:34.

curriculum but we are almost there. We're actually now in year 10 of 13

:44:34.:44:38.

years of schooling. We have to finish this job by supporting

:44:38.:44:43.

teachers which is precisely what is happening. The Royal Society of

:44:43.:44:51.

Edinburgh has said the curriculum for excellence is know where to be

:44:51.:44:57.

found. There is no proper excellence. These are at the top

:44:57.:45:01.

academics of the next generation. can assure you, they are not. They

:45:01.:45:07.

are looking at one part of the equation, not be full equation. The

:45:07.:45:12.

curriculum for excellence lies internationally, a lot of

:45:12.:45:16.

international scholars have studied this and there is no doubt that

:45:16.:45:21.

this is the way to do education in the modern world. The second place

:45:21.:45:27.

it lies is the actual results we are seeing. We are seeing endless

:45:27.:45:31.

results from primary school all the way through. There are

:45:31.:45:34.

international comparative swear we have turned a corner compared to

:45:34.:45:43.

many others and we are rising again. Does it not bother you that a body

:45:43.:45:49.

is saying this? It bothers me that we are not, as a nation,

:45:49.:45:53.

recognising the great strengths of the curriculum for excellence.

:45:53.:45:58.

Later you will have Tom Hunter, I heard his inspirational speech, the

:45:58.:46:02.

First Minister also commented on the importance of these changes in

:46:02.:46:07.

Scottish classrooms. We need to get behind them and make them work.

:46:07.:46:14.

Areas no strategy on how different parts of the education and skills

:46:14.:46:23.

sector should be compared. released details last year of

:46:23.:46:27.

precisely how that was going to work. We have other reports coming

:46:27.:46:34.

out today, this one has been in the papers today, the figures are from

:46:34.:46:38.

skills development Scotland which says 10,000 publicly-funded

:46:38.:46:42.

apprenticeships when two young people already in jobs. Of course

:46:42.:46:47.

the dead because you have to have a job. This is a disgrace from a

:46:47.:46:53.

Labour Party press release which says unfortunately do understand.

:46:53.:46:59.

You have to support young people. have to explain the question first

:46:59.:47:04.

and then you can respond to it. The question is, at 10,000 publicly-

:47:04.:47:09.

funded apprenticeships when two young people who were in jobs for

:47:09.:47:14.

more than six months already. does not say that. You have to be

:47:14.:47:18.

accurate. A Labour Party press release will say something that is

:47:18.:47:24.

untrue. What it says it is they have been in jobs for up to six

:47:24.:47:31.

months. A young person will be taken in by an employer who will

:47:31.:47:35.

assess their suitability for an apprenticeship. Every young person

:47:35.:47:41.

in Scotland must have a job, that is what distinguishes a Modern

:47:41.:47:46.

apprenticeship, they have to work. This is a party who voted against

:47:46.:47:50.

modern apprenticeships, they are now running down Scotland's young

:47:50.:47:53.

people. I would call that a disgrace because we should be

:47:53.:47:59.

working together to make sure young people get opportunities. 25,000 of

:47:59.:48:03.

them last year. As a nation we have to keep together on these things

:48:03.:48:08.

because we have a problem and if we do that we will do it well. Let me

:48:08.:48:13.

press on a couple of points. This is from a Labour Party press

:48:13.:48:20.

release. The response is from skills development Scotland. Skills

:48:20.:48:23.

development Scotland does say it mentions the figures of being in

:48:23.:48:27.

jobs for six months or less but also relating to that are you

:48:27.:48:31.

categorically saying here that 10,000 publicly-funded

:48:31.:48:37.

apprenticeships did not go do young people who were in jobs for six

:48:37.:48:42.

months? Every single modern apprenticeship is helping young

:48:42.:48:46.

people in their modern Terriers to get jobs. We should be celebrating

:48:46.:48:54.

that not criticising it. -- Modern apprenticeships -- modern Terriers.

:48:54.:48:59.

Did they not already have jobs? They had a learning opportunity and

:48:59.:49:04.

went into an even better one. Thank goodness we put our money into

:49:04.:49:08.

supporting young people. You are seeing modern apprenticeships by

:49:09.:49:18.
:49:19.:49:19.

the sustained or extended in some cases existing employment? That is

:49:19.:49:24.

precisely what we should be doing as an Asian. Every were focusing on

:49:25.:49:29.

that be would be building the type of nation we need for the future.

:49:29.:49:35.

Are you focusing enough on the young people who cannot get jobs?

:49:35.:49:40.

No 16 to 19-year-old of any description who does not have a job

:49:40.:49:44.

will get education or training. We recognise the disaster of the

:49:44.:49:49.

Thatcherite years when there was a lost generation. We are determined

:49:49.:49:54.

to ensure that will not happen again. Labour Party press releases

:49:54.:49:58.

running down job schemes that they never voted for our an utter

:49:58.:50:04.

disgrace. Thank you for coming in, Mike Russell. Now, flags change the

:50:04.:50:09.

way people think is the finding of research by political scientists at

:50:09.:50:13.

Strathclyde University. They asked about issues like national pride

:50:13.:50:19.

and the economy. More than 10,000 people across the UK took part in

:50:19.:50:24.

the online survey but what they did not also realise was that the

:50:24.:50:29.

responses to national flags were also being tested. A couple of

:50:29.:50:33.

months ago on this programme and on other parts of the BBC we asked you

:50:33.:50:38.

to let us know what you felt about the nation. More than 10,000 of you

:50:39.:50:43.

click on the Strathclyde University website to answer a quick quiz.

:50:43.:50:48.

This is the sort of thing they saw, a series of quick questions asking

:50:48.:50:54.

about the economy and that the top of each page a little flag. Even

:50:54.:50:57.

though they answered similar questions, not everyone saw the

:50:57.:51:05.

same thing. The survey randomly designed each person a different

:51:05.:51:10.

design depending on where the left. People who said they lived in

:51:10.:51:14.

Scotland might have seen a series of pages like best, the same

:51:14.:51:19.

questions but this time with a Saltire. In England you might have

:51:19.:51:23.

seen as St George's cross. The point was not just to find out how

:51:23.:51:27.

people felt about the nation but to find out how seeing different flags

:51:28.:51:33.

might altar how they feel. The findings are that flags do make a

:51:33.:51:39.

difference. Firstly an emotional issue, national pride. Over all

:51:39.:51:46.

those who lived in England felt negatively about being English.

:51:47.:51:51.

People who were shown the Union flag felt more proud of being

:51:51.:51:56.

English but were still on the negative side of the graph. Compare

:51:56.:52:01.

that to the Scots, neither the Saltire nor union flag had a

:52:01.:52:05.

significant effect on the national pride which was on the whole

:52:05.:52:10.

confident. On both sides of the border people who sought the

:52:10.:52:14.

neutral or Union flag felt positive about the current economic

:52:14.:52:18.

situation but look what happened if they saw either of the national

:52:18.:52:24.

flags, it fell into the negative. The Saltire had a stronger negative

:52:24.:52:28.

effect on people's feelings about the current financial situation in

:52:28.:52:34.

Scotland. That could be a sign of anxiety rather than reminding

:52:34.:52:39.

people of being Scottish or British it makes them feel less in control

:52:39.:52:44.

of the situation in the UK and hard done by. Or could it be an

:52:44.:52:49.

unconscious feeling by the Scots that doing it alone would be better

:52:49.:52:57.

in an independent economy? These flags seemed to trigger unconscious

:52:57.:53:01.

gut responses which applies to allegedly emotional issues like

:53:02.:53:09.

national pride. We need to attach plenty of caveat to best, not least

:53:09.:53:19.

of all because many of them watch this programme we could expect them

:53:19.:53:29.
:53:29.:53:29.

to be more political savvy than most. During the forthcoming

:53:30.:53:33.

European football championships the George's cross will be hard to

:53:33.:53:40.

avoid. If you want to change how people feel, put out more flags,

:53:40.:53:48.

but which ones? With me in the studio is someone from the research

:53:48.:53:58.
:53:58.:53:58.

team at Strathclyde University and another professor. Even with the

:53:58.:54:02.

national question like the economy there does still seem to be some

:54:02.:54:07.

emotional reaction when there is a flag around? We thought this was

:54:07.:54:13.

interesting because there is a tendency to distinguish between the

:54:13.:54:18.

emotional gut responses to a national flag and more rational

:54:18.:54:23.

opinions about the economy. When you are triggering national

:54:23.:54:27.

identity which is traditionally associated with your gut instincts

:54:27.:54:33.

it also affected how you looked at the economy. National questions

:54:33.:54:39.

seem to be shaped when people triggered more emotional responses

:54:39.:54:48.

to their national identity. How do you actually interpret the

:54:48.:54:53.

response? If somebody sees as Saltire in the background and they

:54:53.:54:56.

have a specific response to it you may think that is because they do

:54:56.:55:01.

not think Scotland can survive independently or because they are

:55:01.:55:07.

frustrated at what they see as Scotland's resources going south.

:55:07.:55:11.

We have to be really clear in this research it is not representative,

:55:11.:55:16.

it is a particular set of people who responded to the survey and the

:55:16.:55:21.

dapper we get does not allow you to interpret Withey said what the dead.

:55:21.:55:28.

-- the data. -- what the dead. This sets up our next research programme

:55:28.:55:32.

which is to look at when people are triggered in a particular direction

:55:32.:55:39.

what made them do that? Research only ever conclusively proves the

:55:39.:55:44.

need for more research? In this particular case it was an

:55:44.:55:50.

experiment rather than a survey. Tom, what do you make of what is

:55:50.:55:56.

coming out here? Should parties wrap themselves up in flags or not?

:55:56.:56:02.

There are two things. The first thing has been implied already that

:56:02.:56:07.

decisions on big issues are not necessarily completely rational or

:56:07.:56:12.

completely emotional. They are a combination of both. The second

:56:12.:56:17.

thing is that this is a very unusual piece of research. It is

:56:17.:56:22.

not meant to be representative but what this kind of research does is

:56:22.:56:27.

stir new questions rather than in a sense give new answers. One of the

:56:27.:56:32.

things about flags recently and not least in the UK, by that I mean

:56:32.:56:37.

Northern Ireland as well, is that flag use has become pretty heavily

:56:37.:56:42.

politicised. You will note probably from this research that as far as

:56:43.:56:47.

England is concerned there are a small minority in England who do

:56:47.:56:51.

not regard the Union Jack as something positive because it has

:56:51.:56:57.

been taken over, as some say, by extreme right-wing groups. Up here

:56:57.:57:01.

in Scotland other people might have concerns about the Union Jack for

:57:01.:57:06.

different reasons. In Northern Ireland these symbols are extra

:57:06.:57:09.

ordinarily controversial and important. The final thing I would

:57:09.:57:15.

say about this is we should not overestimate, in terms of national

:57:15.:57:21.

identity, any single symbol. National identity is a confused mix

:57:21.:57:26.

of everything from mythology through to landscape, through to a

:57:26.:57:33.

belief in who our heroes are. What makes us like that? The flag is not

:57:33.:57:39.

irrelevant but it is not the only flag. Does it make it difficult for

:57:39.:57:43.

politicians if you are seeing I will put forward some very

:57:43.:57:48.

persuasive arguments based on evidence and be confident I can

:57:48.:57:52.

persuade you but what we are actually seeing here is it does not

:57:52.:57:57.

matter what the evidence says, something else is influencing an

:57:57.:58:03.

emotional response. What is influencing that? Is it your

:58:03.:58:08.

upbringing, what you Peden has got? We are seeing positive psychology

:58:08.:58:13.

here. It is a totality. I think it is fantastic that this is the case

:58:13.:58:17.

that politicians, their spin doctors and their focus groups can

:58:17.:58:22.

understand what makes us tick. I would see this as a positive and

:58:22.:58:28.

refreshing aspect of the human race. What is happening now do you think?

:58:28.:58:33.

The big things to have a look at our the different symbols that

:58:33.:58:37.

relate to identity. Breaking that down further I think is interesting.

:58:37.:58:42.

The relationship that we find between the Union Jack and positive

:58:42.:58:46.

feelings of English identity were quite interesting and in particular

:58:46.:58:51.

this discussion about English identity at the moment, whether or

:58:51.:58:55.

not that is synonymous between UK and English identity would be quite

:58:55.:59:05.
:59:05.:59:12.

England has assumed since the 18th century that England and Britain

:59:12.:59:18.

are synonymous, so there is no need for an English identity. Now the

:59:18.:59:22.

flag issue is part of that struggle to find an identity in a territory

:59:22.:59:29.

that is quite controversial. Would there be any benefit in getting the

:59:29.:59:35.

responses of an individual to the different flags, as opposed to a

:59:35.:59:39.

series of individuals with the same flag, which is what happened in

:59:39.:59:45.

this exercise? There are lots of different ways that you could

:59:45.:59:51.

conduct this exercise. The problem is that if you expose the same

:59:51.:59:56.

person to a number of ways of doing it then that affects the results.

:59:56.:00:01.

More research to be done. Definitely.

:00:01.:00:05.

It's been exactly a week since it emerged that there had been an

:00:05.:00:09.

outbreak of Legionnaires' disease in Edinburgh. Cases of the deadly

:00:09.:00:12.

disease are expected to decrease this week but health officials say

:00:12.:00:15.

they cannot yet be sure the outbreak has reached its peak.

:00:15.:00:19.

Let's cross to the newsroom now for an update with Andrew Kerr. Andrew,

:00:19.:00:28.

what's the latest? The Health Secretary, Nicholas Sturgeon, will

:00:28.:00:33.

once again chair a meeting at 2pm this afternoon of all the key

:00:33.:00:38.

bodies involved in trying to work on this outbreak. After that

:00:38.:00:43.

meeting we will hear at 3pm to latest update on the number of

:00:43.:00:49.

suspected cases. The latest figure we have from yesterday were 80

:00:49.:00:54.

confirmed and suspected cases of Legionnaires' disease. Cases are

:00:54.:00:58.

expected to decrease this week but health officials cannot yet be sure

:00:58.:01:02.

that the outbreak has reached his peak. At the moment we are still

:01:02.:01:07.

looking at the source of the outbreak. Four cooling towers Hart

:01:07.:01:12.

suspected in four sites in Edinburgh. An improvement notice

:01:12.:01:19.

has been served on North British Distillery. We will bring the

:01:19.:01:23.

latest update here on BBC Scotland at 3pm.

:01:23.:01:26.

The unfolding situation in Edinburgh has brought back memories

:01:26.:01:29.

for the community of Barrow-in- Furness in Cumbria - which is about

:01:29.:01:32.

to commemorate the tenth anniversary of the worst outbreak

:01:32.:01:36.

of Legionnaires' in the UK. Almost 200 people in the town contracted

:01:36.:01:45.

the disease and seven people died. At first Bill Merewood thought his

:01:45.:01:49.

wife Christine had a bad dose of the flu - but within days she was

:01:49.:01:57.

fighting for her life. The Saturday morning the doctor checked and the

:01:57.:02:00.

sooner she by dint of hospitals they did further checked and

:02:00.:02:04.

confirm that it was Legionnaires' disease. We did not realise how

:02:04.:02:08.

serious it was, even then. The 56- year-old, who was originally from

:02:08.:02:11.

Rutherglen, was one of seven people to die in the Legionnaires'

:02:11.:02:15.

outbreak in Barrow-in-Furness in August 2002. Brenda Sedgewick was

:02:15.:02:18.

one of the 180 people who contracted the disease, she says

:02:18.:02:27.

she's lucky to be alive. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and sweaty.

:02:27.:02:35.

Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious. And then I

:02:35.:02:42.

got septicaemia and pneumonia, all the organs failed, induced coma,

:02:42.:02:46.

and they did not know how or when they brought the out of the Como

:02:46.:02:50.

what would happen. Jo Davis covered the story for the North West

:02:50.:02:53.

Evening Mail, she remembers the atmosphere in the town as the

:02:53.:03:01.

number of cases diagnosed rapidly increased. Because nobody knew

:03:01.:03:06.

where the outbreak occurred, nobody knew how to protect themselves. It

:03:06.:03:10.

was a very concerning time. Then we had the very sad news that some

:03:10.:03:16.

people had died and we just could not comprehend that this was

:03:16.:03:20.

happening in a small town like this. The source of the outbreak was

:03:20.:03:24.

traced here - an arts complex in the town centre. It was discovered

:03:24.:03:27.

that contaminated water had been leaking from an air conditioning

:03:27.:03:34.

system into this alley way. They all said that it was down this

:03:34.:03:38.

particular alley so it was fairly obvious that it was discharging

:03:38.:03:43.

into the alley way. Although there were one or two industrial sources

:03:43.:03:48.

that we had to eliminate as well. The task facing the team in

:03:48.:03:51.

Edinburgh is considerably larger. Barrow Borough Council didn't want

:03:51.:03:56.

to take part in this film. It was fined, along with one of its

:03:56.:03:59.

architects, for breaches of health and safety. It's almost ten years

:03:59.:04:05.

on but emotions are still raw. There are lessons to be learned,

:04:05.:04:15.
:04:15.:04:18.

are on there? I still get a lot of flashbacks, thinking they should

:04:18.:04:22.

not have happened. If things were followed rightly, it should not

:04:22.:04:26.

have happened. Like he should not have happened in Scotland, but

:04:26.:04:29.

these things do. The question of how prepared the

:04:29.:04:33.

economy is to withstand a deterioration in the rest of Europe

:04:33.:04:36.

over the coming months was one of the issues discussed at the

:04:36.:04:39.

Business in Parliament conference at Holyrood this week. We'll be

:04:39.:04:42.

hearing from the entrepreneur Sir Tom Hunter shortly, but first our

:04:42.:04:44.

reporter Gilly Mathieson has been talking to businesses across

:04:44.:04:54.
:04:54.:04:59.

Scotland to find out their concerns. One of flight's little luxuries.

:04:59.:05:02.

Scotland's food and drink industry is continuing to boom with all-time

:05:02.:05:09.

high exports of �5.4 bn last year. But despite record sales, the

:05:09.:05:15.

credit squeeze is having an impact. It is making us more careful with

:05:15.:05:18.

whom we give credit to. We have taken some losses per share were

:05:18.:05:23.

people who have gone bankrupt and it puts uncertainty into the

:05:23.:05:27.

investment programme. We are investing but the tears and her

:05:27.:05:34.

first time. In Edinburgh, 14th Alex is seeing a growth in output after

:05:34.:05:39.

winning back orders from the Far East -- Maclaren Plastics. We have

:05:39.:05:43.

to think inevitably, we have to maximise the amount of time that we

:05:43.:05:50.

use our planned for, and generally become as competitive as we can.

:05:50.:05:54.

was the ambition of Alison Grieves to move production of her products

:05:54.:06:00.

from China to her business HQ in Edinburgh. We have price matching

:06:00.:06:03.

here on our doorstep which is propelling us forward and it does

:06:03.:06:09.

dispel the myth that manufacturing in the Far East is a lot cheaper.

:06:09.:06:14.

Safetray began as a start-up three years ago and is now exporting

:06:14.:06:18.

across the world but it had to exchange equity for capital in

:06:18.:06:25.

order to expand. Safetray as a company has benefited from doing

:06:25.:06:28.

that, however there are other high- growth companies that are still

:06:28.:06:32.

finding it really tough to get that money. The factory is working

:06:32.:06:36.

around the clock but its owner police that uncertainty over the

:06:36.:06:42.

referendum could lose him business. We are not quite sure when

:06:42.:06:48.

developing products about putting new product lines down. There is

:06:48.:06:57.

talk about it and it does concern us for the future. Sandra

:06:57.:07:00.

Paterson's business is being mounted by Entrepreneurial Spark,

:07:00.:07:05.

an initiative supported by a Sir Tom Hunter, of giving free office

:07:05.:07:10.

space and support to allow her to expand. We have been able to use

:07:10.:07:15.

the money and resources that we would have spent on offices and

:07:15.:07:20.

space on a staff, we have taken on a modern apprentice and a full-time

:07:20.:07:24.

manager. Scotland is a nation of inventors who shaped the modern

:07:24.:07:28.

world, but with challenging time to cross the globe, what more can we

:07:28.:07:37.

be doing today to insure business thrives in this uncertain world.

:07:37.:07:41.

Sir Tom Hunter was the key speaker at the business conference in

:07:41.:07:46.

Holyrood. Just after that speech he told me we should be setting our

:07:46.:07:51.

sights on a new Scottish Enlightenment. In these the

:07:51.:07:55.

collaboration of business, education, politicians, trade

:07:55.:07:59.

unions, the third sector. Scotland is small enough to be able to do

:07:59.:08:04.

this. Indeed, I think we need to do it or would be left behind. Do we

:08:04.:08:10.

have enough of the fiscal levers to do it? Again, I am for fiscal

:08:10.:08:15.

autonomy for very simple reasons. If you were a business that any had

:08:15.:08:19.

one side of the equation, which was you have the cheque book but no

:08:19.:08:23.

control over hope to raise the finance, that is a recipe for

:08:23.:08:30.

disaster. I think Scotland should have both sides of that equation,

:08:30.:08:33.

which is fiscal autonomy. Can that rain would be established in

:08:33.:08:38.

Scotland stays within the UK or do we have to start with a clean

:08:38.:08:42.

slate? I do not know the answer to that question. I am willing to

:08:43.:08:48.

listen. I am really interested in this debate but we need to have

:08:48.:08:54.

that debate. One thing I do know is we cannot put things on hold for

:08:54.:09:01.

two years while we worry about this. We have to make changes today.

:09:01.:09:05.

that a concern for you, that the constitutional debate will

:09:05.:09:10.

overshadow everything? If people go, OK, we will wait until we know,

:09:10.:09:16.

then two years as an awful long time in today's business world.

:09:16.:09:20.

pot of the key issues in this debate of most interest to you?

:09:20.:09:25.

What will most interest the Scottish people, everybody will say

:09:25.:09:28.

how was it could to affect me? Everybody will be slightly

:09:28.:09:32.

different. I think it is for the politicians to answer these

:09:32.:09:40.

questions. What interests me? One of the key things for staying in

:09:40.:09:44.

the union, is it just the status quo, or can there be more positive

:09:44.:09:50.

things to come out of staying in the Union? If it is independence,

:09:50.:09:55.

Wallaby to me as a businessman? What is going to happen with our

:09:55.:10:02.

tax regime? Will we be able to export more easily? All of these

:10:02.:10:06.

sorts of questions need to be answered. Do you think there is any

:10:06.:10:10.

value in moving the day forward, or de think we need the time to have

:10:10.:10:16.

the full debate? So far, I believe we need the time because we have

:10:16.:10:21.

not even started yet. What sort of effect you think the constitutional

:10:21.:10:27.

debate is having on the business environment? My impression is I

:10:27.:10:32.

understand big utility companies, big companies who want to. Capital

:10:32.:10:37.

many years in advance would be St which environment and by deploying

:10:37.:10:41.

this capital into? I think there is uncertainty for them and I

:10:41.:10:48.

understand that. The breast of it, I do not really see it holding back

:10:48.:10:57.

investment. What impact is the euro crisis having on Scottish business?

:10:57.:11:01.

The European question, up from a businessman point of view, is

:11:01.:11:08.

number one of the present time. But the very fact that, faced with

:11:08.:11:13.

calamity, the European Union cannot actually get its act together and

:11:13.:11:20.

sold it, actually answers the question. This union is not really

:11:20.:11:26.

be union, it is unworkable. 17 countries in single currency, or

:11:26.:11:31.

many more countries tried come together. The very fact they have

:11:31.:11:37.

not been able to come when the stakes are so high and fix this

:11:37.:11:41.

tells me everything about trying to herd everybody with very different

:11:41.:11:46.

agendas together. So what do you think is the answer? Could this,

:11:46.:11:55.

thing that is way above my pay scale! It is very high, then!

:11:55.:12:01.

think one of the interesting things would be if Greece was to exit the

:12:01.:12:06.

next he make a coat of it then European politicians would be

:12:06.:12:13.

really worried. But I think change news to happened there. I do not

:12:13.:12:19.

know what the changes, but that status quo is not acceptable.

:12:19.:12:22.

your opinion that the Westminster government is right to be as

:12:22.:12:28.

unsupportive as it is being at the moment? I think Britain is in a

:12:28.:12:34.

better place by not joining the European single currency,

:12:34.:12:42.

definitely. Our currency conflate, which is important. I am not for a

:12:42.:12:48.

federal Europe. Do you see any problems with Scotland where it to

:12:48.:12:54.

become independent continuing to use the paint? Had he not think so.

:12:54.:12:59.

But some scare mongering exist, but these are the questions that we

:12:59.:13:04.

need to get to. Can we keep the pound? Can we set our own interest

:13:04.:13:09.

rates? These are the questions that need answered, not whether we are

:13:09.:13:14.

going to have a flag or whatever, that is to be dealt with later. Let

:13:14.:13:21.

us deal with the big questions first. Property retail was badly

:13:21.:13:26.

affected, how difficult has it been for you? We have had to reinvent

:13:26.:13:31.

ourselves. For many years, our business was going in an upward any

:13:31.:13:38.

direction. But, frankly, through our own fault, we lost the focus.

:13:38.:13:44.

People say, maybe nobody saw the downturn coming. Yes, they did.

:13:44.:13:48.

Clever people saw the downturn coming and made lots of money from

:13:48.:13:54.

it. We just were not good at it, therefore I have to look at myself,

:13:54.:13:59.

take responsibility and we intend. We have had to take some tough

:13:59.:14:04.

decisions, some tough medicine, but we have done that, we have

:14:04.:14:14.
:14:14.:14:16.

regrouped, and I'm glad to say we What is it about as as Scots? Are

:14:16.:14:25.

we more risk adverse or less business savvy? I do not know. I do

:14:25.:14:32.

wonder sometimes if we have failed but I am not giving up. If we look

:14:32.:14:38.

at Scotland's history. Where I was brought up was a deep coal-mining

:14:38.:14:46.

community. We were dominated by a these kind of industries. When I

:14:46.:14:51.

was at school I was told go down the pit, a job for life, someone

:14:51.:14:57.

else will take care of you. But guess what, no coalmines in

:14:57.:15:03.

Scotland any more, no shipbuilding. We are still educating our children

:15:03.:15:08.

by and large the same but into a very different world. There are no

:15:08.:15:16.

jobs for life any more. We need to be equipping our kids with a can-do

:15:16.:15:19.

attitude, an independent thought and a questioning mind that can

:15:19.:15:24.

deal with whatever is going to come their way. I do not know what is

:15:24.:15:28.

going to happen in the next 20 years but I know change is going to

:15:28.:15:33.

be rapid and if Scotland is going to be at the forefront of that we

:15:33.:15:36.

meet a generation that feels confident in this ever-changing

:15:36.:15:43.

world. What would give them that confidence? An education that

:15:43.:15:48.

instils that in them. You only experience of education you were

:15:48.:15:55.

talking about. My ear -- Real Education was working in my dad's

:15:55.:16:01.

shot from a very early age. Business was talked about around

:16:01.:16:07.

the kitchen table. His business something you can learn or is it a

:16:07.:16:11.

personal characteristic rather than an intellectual exercise? Nature

:16:11.:16:17.

and nurture is the big question. You are going to have your natural

:16:17.:16:20.

born entrepreneur's and you're a natural born sports people but with

:16:20.:16:24.

a bit of encouragement and the right education we can all become a

:16:24.:16:30.

bit more entrepreneurial. To get back to the constitutional issue,

:16:30.:16:37.

should it be a simple yes or no on the ballot paper? I think it is

:16:37.:16:41.

interesting. I think the Scottish National Party cannot really goal

:16:41.:16:46.

for a yes or no if they think they are going to lose because then they

:16:46.:16:51.

will say there is no mandate to govern. At some point they are

:16:51.:16:57.

going to have to say will we put a third question on the ballot paper.

:16:57.:17:01.

Once the third question goes on I think it is inevitable that they

:17:01.:17:06.

will not get a clean yes. Do you think it is inevitable there will

:17:06.:17:12.

be a devo max question? I do not know. I am talking -- watching with

:17:12.:17:18.

interest. Do you very good instincts suggest that? I have not

:17:18.:17:23.

made up my mind. I am confused and I am really interested in this

:17:23.:17:28.

stuff. I am looking forward to a positive debate because it is so

:17:28.:17:34.

important. It has not been positive until now do you think? I think it

:17:35.:17:39.

has been skirmishes around the edges and a bit of a pantomime.

:17:39.:17:44.

When you decide will you go public about your decision before you

:17:45.:17:50.

vote? I am conscious that I have one vote the same as you have and I

:17:50.:17:53.

am conscious of what it should be but I think I will make up my mind

:17:53.:18:00.

and then I will think of what to do. So you may go public? Some people

:18:00.:18:05.

will say it could be persuasive if somebody with a successful business

:18:05.:18:10.

profile like you have, if you decide it is a good idea, it could

:18:10.:18:17.

be persuasive. Do you accept that? You do not have any false modesty?

:18:17.:18:24.

I think it is a burden. I have got to decide whether I want to play

:18:24.:18:29.

that role or not. I think first of all I have got to find out what I

:18:29.:18:35.

really think. A burden in what sense? If I thought other people

:18:35.:18:39.

were going to go the way I was going to go it makes it even more

:18:39.:18:46.

important that I get it right. Tom Hunter there, let's cross back

:18:46.:18:52.

over to Andrew for the lunchtime news. The number of young people

:18:52.:18:56.

getting apprenticeships has been mismatched according to Scottish

:18:56.:19:01.

Labour. They claim many had already been working in a job for over six

:19:01.:19:06.

months. The Scottish Government say they are committed to maximising

:19:06.:19:12.

employability for young people. What the Government are doing is

:19:12.:19:17.

very bad gene people in work as apprentices while people on the

:19:17.:19:23.

dole queue are suffering as a consequence. A man has died at a

:19:23.:19:29.

music festival in Loch Ness. He took ill in the main arena last

:19:29.:19:36.

night and died in a nearby hospital a short time later. The Olympic

:19:36.:19:43.

Torch has arrived in Scotland's Islands. Thousands of people turned

:19:43.:19:48.

out to see it. Our reporter is following its progress. We are

:19:48.:19:53.

flying in the next hour or so to Shetland and from there it will

:19:53.:19:57.

split, it goes into a Norwegian longboat and the rest of the flame

:19:57.:20:04.

will go around Lerwick, then we will head to Stornoway. Three

:20:04.:20:09.

islands in one day for the torch. We hope that the torch and the

:20:09.:20:15.

flame will be enriched by its visit to Orkney. Now a look at the

:20:15.:20:20.

weather. Nothing too dramatic happening this afternoon. A lot of

:20:20.:20:25.

cloud around. We will see some brightness. We will see outbreaks

:20:25.:20:29.

of patchy light rain or drizzle continuing in the Central Lowlands

:20:29.:20:36.

in particular and across the south- west. It will be quite cool. That

:20:36.:20:44.

is all for now. Our next bulletin is at 6: 20 this evening. Thank you

:20:44.:20:50.

for that. This week it is a political who's to at the Leveson

:20:50.:21:00.
:21:00.:21:11.

Inquiry. I will hand you back to my colleague for more. David Cameron

:21:11.:21:18.

is up on Thursday. Many people before him, you will be spoiled for

:21:18.:21:23.

things to write about all over the Leveson Inquiry. That's right. They

:21:23.:21:29.

will be struggling for top billing. All we need is some gumboots and a

:21:29.:21:35.

pop up tend. I think they will cancel each other out and the

:21:35.:21:39.

issues may be lost. The most interesting will be David Cameron.

:21:39.:21:44.

Did he come to a deal with the Murdoch corporation to support

:21:44.:21:52.

their bid for BSkyB before it the 2010 election? The Channel 4

:21:52.:22:02.
:22:02.:22:08.

Dispatches documentary tomorrow will claim exactly that. How much

:22:08.:22:13.

do you think he will be able to see given that there is a police

:22:13.:22:18.

investigation under way? I am sorry, I think Ian did not hear me asking

:22:18.:22:28.

that question. I get, sorry, my apologies. -- I did. There is

:22:28.:22:34.

clearly an issue here, Andy Coulson the former No. 10 adviser who was

:22:34.:22:39.

the former News of the World editor, he has been charged with perjury

:22:39.:22:44.

following comments he made in relation to phone hacking in the

:22:44.:22:54.
:22:54.:22:54.

Tommy Sheridan case. There are complexities here. And what do you

:22:54.:22:58.

think will be the key points potentially to come out of the

:22:58.:23:03.

Leveson Inquiry this week? Ironically this inquiry was meant

:23:03.:23:07.

to be set up because of the phone hacking issue. The legal problems

:23:07.:23:12.

mean that it is the one issue they have been unable to delve into very

:23:12.:23:18.

much. There is suspicion Alex Salmond's phone could have been

:23:18.:23:24.

hacked. Police are looking at allegations that the form of his

:23:24.:23:28.

dead and the phone of the former First Minister Jack McConnell had

:23:28.:23:38.
:23:38.:23:41.

been hacked. -- phone of his aide. He had this relationship with the

:23:41.:23:44.

Murdoch press in Scotland where they were very supportive in the

:23:44.:23:50.

run up to the last election. The one to keep them on side for the

:23:50.:23:56.

referendum campaign. There is that issue and there is also Salmond's

:23:56.:24:01.

adviser appealing to say that they would be happy to pick up the phone

:24:01.:24:06.

to Jeremy Hunt in regards to the BSkyB bid if that would be helpful

:24:06.:24:11.

to the Murdoch Corporation. These are the two big issues. Alex

:24:11.:24:21.
:24:21.:24:25.

Salmond wanted his the in the limelight at Leveson -- the -- day.

:24:25.:24:32.

Before he came forward and told us if his phone had been hacked.

:24:32.:24:35.

appropriate for the First Minister to decline to answer that issue

:24:35.:24:44.

about phone hacking? I was applying the rule of what would happen if

:24:44.:24:54.

the situation had been reversed. I think the SNP would be having a go

:24:54.:24:58.

at a Labour First Minister for doing this. He is going on a

:24:58.:25:04.

precedent which has been set by the UK coalition Government, by David

:25:04.:25:13.

Cameron who himself has said his connections with Jeremy Hunt and

:25:13.:25:17.

the phone hacking scandal were to be examined by the Leveson

:25:17.:25:24.

inquiries so there was no need for any further investigation. I think

:25:24.:25:28.

the Scottish public have already got the message here. We have got a

:25:28.:25:33.

newspaper magnate who was so powerful and influential that no

:25:33.:25:38.

politician, David Cameron, Alex Salmond, to resist them. They all

:25:38.:25:45.

wanted to get into bed with Murdoch because they thought Murdoch was

:25:45.:25:50.

the way to win elections. I do not think this will she that public

:25:50.:25:54.

perception very much. The question now is what happens about it. I am

:25:54.:25:59.

getting very worried because we often focus on these extremist

:25:59.:26:04.

issues and forget that Leveson is about press regulation. He is

:26:04.:26:13.

minded to bring statutory members - - statutory rules to punish members

:26:13.:26:20.

of the press. I think if that is going to happen depress should get

:26:20.:26:26.

in there early and see if there is going to be a new statute then line

:26:26.:26:33.

one has to be freedom of the press in Britain. There is a danger that

:26:34.:26:37.

because everyone has been so interested in some of the details

:26:38.:26:42.

this could bring about a fundamental change in what the

:26:42.:26:46.

press can report, what kind of investigations, have we missed that

:26:46.:26:55.

picture? I think sadly that Leveson on a daily basis has degenerated

:26:55.:27:02.

into a soap opera. Did murder by address for Rebekah Brooks? Real a

:27:02.:27:08.

sideshow issues that has changed this from assets than to give media

:27:08.:27:13.

debate. David Cameron is at least able to stand up now and do

:27:13.:27:18.

anything. He instituted the Leveson inquiry to try to get away from

:27:19.:27:24.

them. I think that short-term political opportunism, the press

:27:24.:27:29.

may well find themselves in a difficult situation. I think we

:27:29.:27:36.

have seen some people wake up to best, one man some weeks ago was

:27:36.:27:40.

able to stand up and it was seen as part of his future leadership

:27:40.:27:45.

ambitions possibly. He was able to stand up as a former journalist and

:27:45.:27:49.

say hang on a minute, let's look at where we are going with this, of

:27:49.:27:54.

what the future press will look like and what it will mean for our

:27:54.:27:59.

democracy in the UK if we go down this road. We have seen people

:27:59.:28:04.

wanting to get through it without any mud sticking to them and to

:28:04.:28:11.

just go with the fashion seeing it has been a disgrace, it has been

:28:11.:28:16.

terrible, one newspaper who had an out of control culture of doing

:28:16.:28:20.

things that were not journalism. Does that mean proper journalism

:28:20.:28:25.

will suffer as a result? There have been too many people around the

:28:25.:28:29.

sides of best like the Guardian with their own agenda, people have

:28:29.:28:34.

to weaken up and realise what it will mean for all of us. We are out

:28:34.:28:38.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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