24/06/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


24/06/2012

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. He's one of the four men who make

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all the big decisions in the coalition. The others you know well.

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David Cameron, Nick Clegg, George Osborne. Today, as the British

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economy struggles to escape the recession, and the eurozone stares

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into the abyss, we talk to the fourth man, Chief Secretary to the

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Treasury Danny Alexander, about the economy, tax and the coalition.

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David Cameron and his Argentine counterpart went head to head over

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the Falklands this week. Respect MP George Galloway and Defence

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Committee Tory MP Colonel Bob Stewart go to battle over the same

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issue. And on Sunday politics Scotland,

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the original Act of Union might be a fragile document, but tomorrow

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the campaign begins to keep the political union strong. The slogan

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is better to get and they promise the best of both worlds. We hear

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1782 seconds

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from the backers, the tractors and The Tories were ready to share

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sovereignty. Look back, I might not have been in Parliament that long

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but the Government were ready to share sovereignty at that time, the

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Tory and Labour governments. Falkland Islands have cost Britain

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a lot of money. It has cost the lives. Why would you give it up now

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when it seems there would be all to be had? Because he would have to

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give it up in total later. Latin America, it is 100% behind us.

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are not. Even the Spanish have turned against Argentina.

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Spanish are a long way away. The Brazilians, the Argentinians, the

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growing power of Venezuela, these countries that are rich. We should

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have good relations with them. We should have good relations, share

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the oil and gas in the Falkland Islands and save money and not have

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to send an aircraft carrier and is more men. We do not have one to

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send. He is saying Latin America is so full of emerging economies and

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we have good relations with Latin America and we just don't talk to

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Argentina. We have got good relations with Latin America. They

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exist. Argentina is not all that popular in Latin America. I

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slightly disagree with you, George. I totally disagree. I quite like

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disagreeing with you. Get to the point. The South Americans are not

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just as George has presented. Some of them are on side on this matter.

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Name names. Brazil is not as bad as you say. Brazil is 100% behind the

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claim of Argentina. If you look at the speech of the Brazilian

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ambassador at the United Nations. Brazil is somebody we should be

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friends with. This is politics. We are not having a battle. We want

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Argentina to back off. That is what we require. Argentina is in real

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economic trouble. This is sabre- rattling, they do not have the

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military means. I do not think you are in trouble because you take

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your oil resources back from the Spanish. The Argentines are within

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their right to take that the oil company. Argentina, its flag is

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flying ever higher because of this issue. They cannot resist the call

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for the Liberation, as they put it, from European colonial rule.

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the Argentinians to take over islands when everybody wants to

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stay away from Argentina, that is can only ionisation. We have to end

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it there. It was a spirited debate Good afternoon. Welcome to Sunday

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Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:

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The old Articles of Union might be showing their age, but unionists

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say they are still relevant. Tomorrow sees the launch of their

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campaign to keep Scotland in the UK. Scottish Secretary Michael Moore is

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here to predict how the Better Together campaign will go. And the

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SNP's Stewart Hosie will be giving us his assessment.

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We have a special investigation into the cash-for-gold business.

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There are calls for a new code of conduct in Scotland.

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And at the end of the school year, does the latest craze for American

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style-proms put more pressure on kids, or is it just harmless fun?

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In the debate over the referendum on Scottish independence, the yes

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campaign has already begun. Tomorrow the other campaign is

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launched, the one that says yes to stay in the union offering,

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supporters say, the best of both worlds. The slogan is Better

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Together. Can the campaign cast itself as more than just a no to

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independence? And how united is this pro-Union alliance of Labour,

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Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats?

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This is what we are talking about, the treaty of Union between

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Scotland and England. You can see the articles of union. The first at

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the bottom of the page say the two kingdoms of Scotland and England

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shall be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain. Rarities

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in black and white. If we turn the pages that are over 300 years old,

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we have to be careful, you can see the signatories to the treaty. On

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the Scottish side on the left we have names such as Queensberry and

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the Joint Secretaries of State. On the right, we have Lord Godolphin,

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the Lord High Treasurer. More than 300 years later the debate on

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whether to maintain that Union is well under way. Tomorrow, the

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campaign supporting the union will be officially launched. The Future

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of Scotland will be challenging to make a positive case. Within the

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United Kingdom, Scotland enjoys benefits. We have the arenas of

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international inference, international affairs, and we have

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in domestic parliament here are good control up over our own

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domestic to vault issues. That seems to me the best of both worlds.

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How United what the pro-union campaign the? When the parties seem

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to agree on hardly anything else. You would be may be surprised about

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how United this campaign is. We put aside differences, we do not forget

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them, we put them aside to ensure we get the benefits of the United

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Kingdom put forward in the campaign. If the Scots vote no, what then? At

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Stirling Castle on Friday, the Welsh First Minister told us that

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the UK Government had to come up with an offer on further devolution

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sooner rather than later. It needs to be made before the referendum.

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It is not good enough to say there would be discussions after. The

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people of Scotland need to see what alternatives there might be on the

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table before the referendum takes place. Labour's deputy leader in

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Scotland said that is a question for after the referendum. We are

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open to that debate but it is a separate argument. We ask is

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Scottish people to make the biggest decision in 300 years. It is

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devolution again separation. opinion polls seem to be on the

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pro-union side. The campaign knows it has a long way to go to persuade

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Scottish people not tear up the Union. The Scottish Secretary joins

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us from the Edinburgh studio. How do you launch this? Do you imagine

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you can set a positive vision, given that there are such disparate

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views of what the constitutional settlement should be, even within

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the individual parties taking part? The central issue we are being

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asked to resolve is the future of Scotland's place in the UK. We are

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fundamentally stronger together and would be weaker apart. Your

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commentators in the last piece made some of the arguments about

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opportunities we have as we are part of a bigger United Kingdom

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economy. The strength of being part of that to avoid some of the risks

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we see for smaller countries elsewhere in Europe. We have a huge

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amount of clout for Scotland being part of the UK's internationally.

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Whether it is NATO, the United Nations, that is important, also is

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important, we have devolution already to the Scottish Parliament

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and in the past few weeks we have delivered the latest date of that

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with new tax and borrowing powers. I think there is a positive case

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for Scotland to be part of the UK and I look forward to a strong

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debate about it. Opinion polls show us that the majority in Scotland

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would like a second question that addresses the powers that may be

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appropriate within a devolved settlement still within the United

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Kingdom. You are denying them back. As a federalist, that is a

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ludicrous position to take. The Liberal Democrats could have owned

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D Lomax. You could have moved into ground that is positive. --

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devolution max. The poll does not share a demand for a second

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question, it shows an appetite for a wider debate. The debate is under

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way. As a Liberal Democrat I am committed for home rule for

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Scotland and a loosening of ties within the United Kingdom while

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preserving the United Kingdom. In Scotland, we can have that debate

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and has a party we are under way with that. Looking at tax, welfare

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and other issues. Others need to be part of that. It is not for me to

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tell Scotland what they should think, it is for everybody, the

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voluntary sector and others, to be part of the debate. In order to

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have the debate and reach an assessment of what they think is an

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appropriate way forward, people need the facts. At what point will

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they know what extra powers for example the Liberal Democrats are

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proposing? Is it in time for the general election? At what point

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does clarity coming to the debate? Can I make an important distinction.

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We have yes N P who have campaigned to have a vote on Scotland's place

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in the UK -- SNP. They have won a majority and we as a UK government

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do not agree with their view for Scotland but we want to work with

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the Scottish government to deliver a vote on that issue, which SNP

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activists have campaigned for. Let's have the referendum.

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Independence is separate to devolution. We do not need to muddy

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the waters by having two questions on the same ballot paper. We

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continue to have the debate and we as a party was set out our ideas

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for the future of devolution in the months ahead. A are you concerned

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that if it is a no to independence in 2014, the political leverage is

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does have painted when you go into subsequent talks with Westminster -

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- is dissipated. There is no political leverage left at

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Westminster for the argument. fundamentally disagree. We look at

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these stages of devolution we have had. We created the Scottish

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Parliament in the Nineties because we had a huge debate over many

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years among the parties and crucially involving people who are

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not politicians, the voluntary sector, business, and we'd got

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consensus. The political parties delivered the Parliament after 1997.

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Just recently we have delivered the Scotland Act with more financial

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powers, based on parties coming together, agreeing a proposition

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and delivering it. I believe that is sensible. There is a threat,

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when you remove that why would they give anything? We have had a lively

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debate about independence or devolution. All the other parties

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apart from the SNP have been happy to be part of the debate about more

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powers for Scotland. We are saying they have raised the issue of

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independence and won majority in the Scottish Parliament, let's

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resolve the issue. We will set out our stall and we want to see what

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other folk think and then we will deliver it. Let me ask you about a

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quote from the Liberal Democrat leader today. He said Scotland

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would be thrown into legal limbo without a straight referendum

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choice on independence or the status quo. He said it would end up

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in the courts. He said he does not want the future of the country to

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be decided by the courts rather than voters at the ballot box. The

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answer to that is simple, this is not a legal question, this is a

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political question. You can give them the legal coverage, they can

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have any number of questions, in not allowing that you have made a

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political choice, not a legal choice. I reject that. We need to

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have a clear question about what Scotland's future is. Is it staying

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as part of the UK or becoming a separate country, will it be

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independent in the world? That is a central and simple proposition. I

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passionately want Scotland to stay part of the UK. We can sort out the

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legality of the Scottish Parliament's ability to hold a

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referendum by working with the Scottish government. We are well

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under way with that. The separate issue is that if you put two

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questions on the paper and get a majority in favour of independence,

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and a bigger majority in favour of more powers, we will have a

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democratic out raged that the bigger result has been ignored

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because the SNP says that will make as independent. I can see arguments

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about that and people going to court to interpret the outcome. He

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is right to say that would be a farce. It is a simple and

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straightforward proposition to resolve that. Then we can work

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through the remaining issues. Joining me now is a Stewart Hosie

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from our Dundee studio. What did you make of that final point? Why

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have you got to with the talks in terms of the legalities?

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Scottish Government will have a mandate to hold this referendum and

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if the UK Government wanted to clarify any legal concerns they

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have, they could make a section 30 transfer. That is in their hands

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and we hope they do that. We have no doubt that holding a referendum

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in Scotland will be legal. If we look at the direction of travel

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that the SNP seem to be on, you keep modifying what the concept of

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independent means, you will keep the monarchy, you say you may stay

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in NATO. Are you confident you are taking the party with you on this?

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Yes, absolutely. We are talking about us having the best of both

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worlds. A normal independent Scotland and a union with our

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neighbours, using those things would makes sense to use it. The

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head of state, the Stirling currency, it makes sense for

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everybody but we take all the other political decisions which matter

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and that really chimes with the social attitudes and with the

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recent opinion poll which shows the majority of people wanted the

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Scottish Parliament to take the majority of decisions over most

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things. Let me clarify something here. You make these assertions and

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say that we will keep Stirling, that we will get rid of Trident and

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that you may firmly believe that that is a strong possibility. The

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fact of the matter is that you cannot guarantee that. These are

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negotiating positions. In a sense, no government ever or party can

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hold a future government to lock them down, of course that is right.

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When you come to the referendum and 2014, the Scottish people on the

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basis of a public prospectus -- published prospectus will determine

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the situation of this could -- the Scottish state. I am giving you my

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position. Every look at the second question and yet again in opinion

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polls, this has come up again, the majority of people would like the

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option of a second question, more devolved powers within the Union.

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Given the direction of travel and how some of the stand-alone SNP

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policies have been diluted in the past which we have spoken about, if

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you do put a second question on this referendum ballot paper, the

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SNP will lose, that is what the opinion polls are telling us.

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will be an independent question and we are campaigning to win that. We

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and many others outside the SNP what Scotland to be a normal,

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independent country and I am confident we will win that

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referendum and what we have said is it is right and proper to recognise

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a body of opinion which wants to go further with devolution than we

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currently have but not as far as independence and if that can

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coalesce around a detailed prospectus, then we are open to

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having VAT on the ballot paper. I think that shows a huge weakness in

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the no campaign as your interview with Michael Moore said. They need

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to determine what that is in advance of the opinion poll and we

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can test that against independence and the status quo. We have been

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open to this for some time, I am at a loss as to understand what the no

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campaign political parties who say they want further devolution are

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unable to agree on what that means. Also a body of opinion within the

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SNP who says it you put a second question on the referendum ballot

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he will have squandered the party's best chances in generations of

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getting a clear majority for independence. Are you willing to

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risk that? I don't think it is a risk and I don't agree with that

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assessment at all. I think the case for independence is unanswerable.

:50:39.:50:43.

An incredibly strong case that Scotland can stand on its own two

:50:43.:50:47.

feet, work with its neighbours, have the clout within the

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international community. And we are having a seat on the United Nations

:50:51.:50:55.

which we currently do not have. I think the case for independence

:50:55.:50:59.

trumps the case for further devolution that there are those who

:50:59.:51:03.

believe that there should be further devolution. Thank you for

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that. More specifics now on the poll

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which we mentioned earlier and this MORI poll commissioned by the

:51:14.:51:18.

Future of Scotland Campaign, 1,000 people were asked to name the

:51:18.:51:21.

issues and more than one if they wanted of most concern to them. The

:51:21.:51:28.

economy was named as a key concern for 51%, followed by unemployment

:51:28.:51:34.

which mattered most for 21%. Education was most important for

:51:34.:51:40.

21% and public spending cuts by 20%. Scottish independence was a key

:51:40.:51:42.

concern for 16%. The Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations

:51:42.:51:48.

has a leading role in this Future of Scotland Campaign, and it's

:51:48.:51:56.

chief executive Martin Sime is here now. The shows the people of

:51:56.:51:59.

Scotland represented in this poll are quite a way ahead of the

:51:59.:52:05.

politicians in terms of understand it the issues and wanted to see an

:52:05.:52:09.

open discussion and debate about all the options for Scotland's

:52:09.:52:14.

governance rather than turning this into yes/ no Punch and Judy

:52:14.:52:19.

campaign. What do you think should be asked in the 2014 referendum?

:52:19.:52:23.

What more should be discussed. The Future of Scotland Campaign were

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taking the temperature of the public to see their views on a

:52:26.:52:32.

range of subjects. I think for example, a large majority of the

:52:32.:52:36.

people who responded wanted to see welfare powers transferred to the

:52:36.:52:40.

Scottish Parliament. I think that is an interesting and important

:52:40.:52:47.

agenda. We should be debating that now. Those of the real issues that

:52:47.:52:51.

people are concerned about rather than the campaigns that a week will

:52:51.:52:56.

see. It strikes me that spending lot of money on staff and public

:52:56.:53:00.

relations to argue yes/ no is not actually the kind of debate that

:53:00.:53:10.

people want. The politicians ought Do you think there should be a

:53:10.:53:18.

second question? What we are interested in at this stage is

:53:18.:53:21.

keeping all the options on the table and opening out the debate so

:53:21.:53:25.

that real people get a chance to contribute. How does that work in

:53:25.:53:30.

practice? What are the mechanisms? There's lot of initiatives going on

:53:30.:53:34.

to encourage people, not from the politicians interestingly. They

:53:34.:53:38.

will appear in the endless political shows doing this phoney

:53:38.:53:44.

war and we all know what happens when that happens. The casualty of

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that approach, we know that. Rather than turn this into a binary issue,

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we should discuss the issues that affect people and reflect the

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aspirations they have and in their lives and the kind of Parliament

:53:58.:54:01.

they would like to see and powers they would like to see if. We have

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to leave it there, thank you. With high gold prices and tough

:54:06.:54:11.

economic times, more people are cashing in on their jewellery. But

:54:11.:54:13.

a BBC Scotland investigation has found some people are getting a

:54:13.:54:18.

very raw deal. Scottish consumer groups are calling for a code of

:54:18.:54:22.

conduct like the oneself of the border. Good Morning Scotland's

:54:22.:54:25.

business presenter Waseem Zakir has been looking into the booming cash-

:54:25.:54:32.

for-gold industry. Gold, a safe haven during turbulent

:54:32.:54:38.

times and the commodity. It is in demand as never before. Its price

:54:38.:54:43.

has soared recently. More and more people are cashing in on their old

:54:43.:54:47.

gold. The number of poor because has doubled in the past few years

:54:47.:54:51.

and gold buying outlets have mushroomed. But there are real

:54:51.:54:58.

horror stories about and -- unscrupulous buyers. We are worried

:54:59.:55:04.

that people are offered evaluation and than they are offered much less.

:55:04.:55:08.

People accepting a much lower valuation or paying to get their

:55:08.:55:13.

gold back. To have managed to get hold of some gold for myself and

:55:13.:55:16.

there was to do some mystery shopping to see what sort of prices

:55:16.:55:21.

I will get. But first, I want to see how much it is actually worth.

:55:21.:55:26.

My little 18 carat charm ways to put 69 grams and according to

:55:26.:55:34.

today's prices, it is worth �59.60. When nine earrings way 3.76 grams

:55:34.:55:44.
:55:44.:55:46.

# She's a gold digger. And son it I sampled a dozen gold buyers around

:55:46.:55:51.

Glasgow and the prices I got ranged from 50 to �90.

:55:52.:55:56.

This man's shop give me one of the better prices, �48 when it was

:55:56.:56:01.

valued at nearly 60. He agreed to explain what accounts for this

:56:01.:56:05.

difference. We stand to make a margin but it is to cover costs and

:56:05.:56:09.

we have to make a bit of profit, yes. But I think we are paying much

:56:09.:56:14.

more than most and our training scheme has to be paid for, our

:56:14.:56:21.

staff training, it is all time. The systems we set up in place and the

:56:21.:56:24.

advice we give to customers, we have to be rewarded and am afraid

:56:24.:56:29.

this is part of the way of doing it. It is all well and good taking your

:56:29.:56:32.

gold to a shop where you can't walk out if you're not happy with the

:56:32.:56:36.

price but what about the company's way you have to send your cold off?

:56:36.:56:41.

The poorest prices are received were from online and postal cash

:56:41.:56:47.

companies. One of them offered me a staggering �17 for my gold so just

:56:47.:56:50.

what regulation is there to prevent people getting ripped off? As far

:56:50.:56:58.

as am aware, there aren't. People can pick a price on the day or pick

:56:58.:57:02.

a price depending on that customer which is very unfair. There should

:57:02.:57:06.

be a published price on the day and the customers will understand they

:57:06.:57:09.

have got a margin and that is why you why in business but there

:57:09.:57:13.

should be a publish price so the guidelines are more clear to the

:57:13.:57:17.

customers. In England and Wales, a code of conduct was launched last

:57:17.:57:21.

week to try to self regulates the industry. It is something consumer

:57:21.:57:25.

bodies would like to see adopted in Scotland. We would welcome any

:57:25.:57:29.

regulation that makes sure that customers are protected in any

:57:29.:57:34.

dealings they are having for the cash-for-gold industry. The

:57:34.:57:43.

Scottish consumers may be worse off than English counterparts. But a

:57:43.:57:48.

voluntary code may not work. We are aware that what we need to do is

:57:48.:57:53.

give the voluntary code some time to be tested. That will see if it

:57:53.:57:57.

makes that improvement. There will be concerns that because it is a

:57:57.:58:01.

voluntary code, people who at the West End of practice are unlikely

:58:01.:58:05.

to abide by it and then we would have to look at whether or not the

:58:05.:58:07.

Government would introduced legislation to protect the public

:58:07.:58:13.

more carefully. As the bill winds of the global economy and

:58:13.:58:17.

increasing prosperity in India and China drive up demand for gold, one

:58:17.:58:23.

thing is for sure - the scrap gold buying business is here to stay for

:58:24.:58:27.

a while you it. And you can hear the documentary

:58:27.:58:34.

about selling old gold on BBC Radio Scotland this afternoon at 4:30

:58:34.:58:39.

four and also more on the BBC Scotland news website. Time for the

:58:39.:58:45.

news with Gillian Smart. Good afternoon. 143 will back of

:58:45.:58:48.

Scotland and NatWest bank branches have opened on a Sunday for the

:58:48.:58:52.

first time -- well because, after a computer glitch. The technical

:58:52.:58:59.

fault which has now been fixed let many people unable to use their

:58:59.:59:04.

accounts. A backlog was cleared. Well Bank of Scotland said updating

:59:04.:59:07.

customer accounts had taken longer than expected -- a Royal Bank of

:59:08.:59:14.

Scotland. But the services may not resume properly until tomorrow.

:59:14.:59:18.

Scottish shoppers may have to pay 5p for plastic bags and a so-called

:59:18.:59:21.

bag tax which could raise �5 million for charity. The Scottish

:59:21.:59:25.

Government is starting a three- month consultation on a range of

:59:25.:59:28.

proposals looking to cut waste and protect the environment. Proceeds

:59:28.:59:31.

of the bag tax would go to good causes after retailers have covered

:59:31.:59:39.

their costs. We are finally seeing things settle

:59:39.:59:44.

down after the wet and windy weather. Lot of Wendy weather but

:59:44.:59:51.

also more cloud over northern areas we outbreaks of rain but that will

:59:51.:59:55.

become more patchy through the day. Decent bulls of sunshine through

:59:55.:00:02.

central and southern Scotland. We could see sharp showers to what

:00:02.:00:06.

five and the east corner but it will feel pleasant in the sunshine.

:00:06.:00:16.
:00:16.:00:20.

-- to what five. Our next bulletin Think back to your last year at

:00:20.:00:24.

school and perhaps you had an end of term disco or a ceilidh? Well

:00:24.:00:27.

nowadays it's more likely to marked by an American-style prom -

:00:27.:00:30.

complete with limousines, fancy clothes and tiaras. And it's not

:00:31.:00:33.

just secondary schools who are glamming it up, primary schools are

:00:33.:00:39.

doing it too. So as prom season is upon us our reporter Hayley Jarvis

:00:39.:00:45.

asks if it's all just a bit of harmless fun?

:00:45.:00:51.

Nicole is preparing for her big night, the high-school prom. I have

:00:51.:01:00.

done my hair and make-up by has a new dress and shoes. Looking good

:01:00.:01:04.

does not come cheap. The willingness to splash out on prom

:01:04.:01:09.

night is proving to be big business. We first opened three years ago.

:01:09.:01:15.

got one or two. Last year, there was an increase. This year, we had

:01:15.:01:22.

about five in today and more at the weekend, it seems to be coming more

:01:22.:01:32.
:01:32.:01:33.

popular. Are you looking forward to it? It should be good. A glamorous

:01:33.:01:38.

look for a glitzy occasion. No disco in the school hall for these

:01:38.:01:42.

pupils, they have hired a hotel where they will have a three-course

:01:42.:01:48.

meal before dancing the night away. A high-school people look forward

:01:48.:01:56.

to it. It is the highlight of the year. A Until recently, the Prom

:01:56.:02:06.
:02:06.:02:09.

was an American event. It is as over-the-top as pupils would wanted

:02:09.:02:13.

to be. We would find out if anybody was not coming because of the cost

:02:13.:02:18.

and the school would help out in that case, without people knowing

:02:18.:02:26.

about it. It is nice to see the picture, because then you can

:02:26.:02:30.

visualise the kind of evening they had. Julie is researching the

:02:30.:02:36.

impact of the growing number of Proms in Scotland and found 92% of

:02:36.:02:42.

secondary schools had one last year. The inspectorate are into the pram

:02:42.:02:46.

because they think it gives leadership skills to the children

:02:46.:02:52.

and motivates them -- prom. In itself, I think it is a good thing.

:02:52.:03:00.

The ritual of moving from one state to another state, the biggest

:03:00.:03:04.

downside would be, I suppose, is where there is an excess in terms

:03:04.:03:14.

of consumption. It appears that those attending are getting younger,

:03:14.:03:21.

like these primary seven pupils. are using ceilidh music, but we are

:03:22.:03:31.
:03:32.:03:34.

dressing up. Lucky prom. It gives you a good feeling. -- like a prom.

:03:34.:03:39.

The fact that the children refer to it as a prom, it is the

:03:39.:03:43.

Americanisation of the dance and gradually that has become more of

:03:43.:03:49.

an important thing for the children and families. For the school, it is

:03:49.:03:53.

something we monitor carefully. If the balance was tipped, we would

:03:53.:03:58.

have to address it. What is wrong with primary school pupils getting

:03:58.:04:05.

some of the glamour of the prom? you do that at primary school, by

:04:05.:04:15.
:04:15.:04:16.

secondary school, Euro-X -- your expectations are increasing. Maybe

:04:16.:04:26.
:04:26.:04:28.

this then is increasing. This pupil and his friends wanted a limousine

:04:28.:04:32.

for their high school prom, it was the only one left. If they become

:04:32.:04:35.

increasingly lavish, how will pupils travel in a few years?

:04:35.:04:45.
:04:45.:04:46.

Perhaps a helicopter. One school has turned down a request for that.

:04:46.:04:52.

Just before we go, BBC Scotland is looking for audience members for

:04:52.:04:54.

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