01/07/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


01/07/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news and debate including the Leader of the House of Lords, Lord Strathclyde, on plans to reform the second chamber.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Cameron

:00:40.:00:46.

opens the door to live referendum on of the relationship we the E. We

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ask Nigel for arch if the Prime Minister has stolen his party's

:00:51.:00:58.

most popular political tune. Should the party is apologise for their

:00:58.:01:06.

own record on regulation? We ask Rachel Reeves to come clean. With

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all that and the economic crisis, you would think that the Government

:01:09.:01:14.

would have a enough on its plate. Not so. We asked the Leader of the

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lots whether they can win the fight to save the second chamber.

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland, how Scotland is failing its

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children in care and what is being done to help them. With the

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campaigns launched, where now for the referendum debate? We will be

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speaking to the new chief executive of the Independent's campaign,

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:01:48.:01:59.

Good afternoon. The prime minister has suggested the possibility of a

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referendum at some time in the future on the relationship with

:02:05.:02:15.
:02:15.:02:15.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1457 seconds

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We are still in very early days. There is just over a week to go

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before the House of Commons has to take a decision on a House of

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Commons motion. Decisions will take place and discussions will take

:26:41.:26:46.

place between the parties. They have not told us how many days they

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want. A 10 you proceed with that

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situation? I think it will be very difficult

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to spend weeks and months. We must not second-guess the House of

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Commons. Most of them want to get down to discussing the important

:27:03.:27:08.

issues of what is happening in the second chamber, rather than relying

:27:08.:27:12.

on a Labour Party tactics to delay discussion again and again.

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People will find it very strange that in the middle of these crises

:27:17.:27:22.

and events in Syria and elsewhere that the Commons floor is dominated,

:27:22.:27:32.

week after week, by laws reformed. -- by Lords reform.

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I think that is why we will see support for a sensible programme of

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development by government. We have had referendums on all

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sorts of issues recently, why not a referendum on this major

:27:47.:27:52.

constitutional change? We have had very few national

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referendums and at the last general election all three party manifestos

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agreed that there should be a democratic reform. They have agreed

:28:03.:28:07.

over the last decade or so. They said they would try to find a

:28:07.:28:13.

consensus, not that they would do We are yet to see whether we can

:28:13.:28:19.

achieve a consensus. Referendums are expensive. �80 million on,

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ostensibly, asking the people to agree something that the political

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parties have already agreed. I think this is a political tactic.

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This was put in their manifesto at the last minute before the last

:28:33.:28:38.

election. They never mentioned it in the past and they did not have

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won in 1999 when they threw out hereditary Peers.

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There does need to be some discussion within government about

:28:48.:28:52.

the most appropriate way of continuing.

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Speaking of a referendum, at the same question as that that I put to

:28:57.:29:02.

Nigel for arch, I'll be closer to a referendum on Europe after the

:29:02.:29:08.

Prime Minister's article? We are closer than we were but we

:29:08.:29:15.

are not yet clear on what the basis of that referendum will be. He

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understands what the need is for a referendum but we must decide what

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it is about first before making that historic decision.

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They do you very much for joining us. It is approaching 12:30pm. You

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are watching the Sunday Politics. Good afternoon and welcome to

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Sunday Politics in Scotland. Coming up on the programme. He stood

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behind the First Minister at the launch of the Yes campaign, now

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Blair Jenkins steps up to lead the campaign foreign independent

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Scotland. Also coming up, Scotland's secret

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shame. The scandal of how badly we are failing our children in care.

:30:04.:30:09.

And tackling the country's second biggest killer. We asking why

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coronary heart disease is still taking so many lives.

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The campaigns on both sides of the referendum debate are officially up

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and running so how will each side go about trying to win your support

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between now and polling day? Earlier this week, Blair Jenkins,

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the former head of News at BBC Scotland, was named the chief

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executive of the Yes Scotland group. He is tipped to join me now.

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:30:49.:30:49.

Congratulations. -- he is here to try me now.

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How do you stop this campaign becoming just an SNP campaign?

:30:54.:31:00.

This is going to be a big umbrella campaign. The yes campaign is for

:31:00.:31:04.

anyone in Scotland to come together and fight on this one issue which

:31:04.:31:11.

is a hugely important issue. While the SNP, as one would expect, will

:31:11.:31:16.

be very active in the campaign and prominent in it, it will be a much

:31:16.:31:21.

bigger and broader alliance. Where does the fund income from for

:31:21.:31:27.

this? How much of the funding, looking at the practicalities, will

:31:27.:31:32.

come from the SNP? If there is a lot of funding from them, or will

:31:32.:31:36.

there not be an impression that it is about their agenda if they are

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bankrolling its? The large for yet Scotland came

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partly from the money that came from Edwin Morgan. Some of the

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funding from those people have been done using the launch period. --

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had been used in the launch period. I want be yet Scotland campaign to

:32:01.:32:05.

be self financing. You have a limit on the amount that

:32:05.:32:11.

people who are not on the electoral roll in Scotland can donates. How

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much is it and why was that decision-taking?

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Most people in Scotland do feel quite strongly that the referendum

:32:18.:32:23.

campaign should be determined by those who live in Scotland and will

:32:24.:32:29.

make this decision. We will not accept donations above �500 from

:32:29.:32:34.

anyone who is not on the alleged oral register in Scotland. That is

:32:34.:32:38.

important to make sure the people taking the decision instalments are

:32:38.:32:44.

contributing to the campaign. Could it be a tactical error if the

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no campaign it is funded by a large donors in England?

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I hope they will be as transparent about their funding as we will be.

:32:56.:33:06.
:33:06.:33:07.

Is it appropriate that you asked people to sign a declaration of

:33:07.:33:13.

independence. This may not be the case. It was reported that you had

:33:13.:33:18.

conceded it was a mistake to asked 1 million Scots to sign this

:33:18.:33:23.

declaration of independence? That is absolutely not true.

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Can you clarify your position on whether there should be a second

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question? My position is that I am leading

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the Yes Scotland campaign. We will only be campaigning for

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independence. That is the campaign I am leading. Most people in

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Scotland at the moment need to keep an open mind of the discussion. I

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have an interesting experience over the last few weeks were I have

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spoken on political issues and a lot of people have been in search

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to say they agree with me and others are not sure. Let us meet

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for coffee and talk about it. I have been drinking a lot of coffee

:34:03.:34:07.

recently. My experience is that people are open to the conversation

:34:07.:34:10.

and are highly persuadable of the arguments for an independent

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Scotland. That is what we need to Will you be putting forward policy

:34:16.:34:19.

ideas? I think people contributing to the

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debate will put forward policy ideas. I am sure the SNP and the

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Greens and the s and -- the SSP will be making policy contributions.

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The Yes Scotland position is we will be campaigning for a Yes vote

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in the referendum in 2014 and it is not to the political parties

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thereafter in the general election to set out their policy agenda for

:34:43.:34:48.

people in Scotland. It is useful to clarify that

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earlier. Because that has been quite widely reported. It is

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interesting how the media has been interacting with S. I hope this

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quote is accurate. You said it you hoped we could have a sensible and

:35:01.:35:05.

mature debate free from Punch and Judy confrontations and one

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Scotland can be proud of. Do you have a concern that that it is not

:35:10.:35:14.

just winning that matters but how you win because of the residue of

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what could be left in scutter society in general if this is not a

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decent campaign? -- in Scottish society.

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Some journalists in the week did invite me to make adverse comments

:35:29.:35:34.

about the people in the no campaign on and off The Record. I will not

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be criticising individuals in the no campaign. The important thing to

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recognise here is that the day after the referendum in 2014, all

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the people involved in the no campaign will become citizens of

:35:53.:35:56.

the new Scotland and will be determined at along with the worst

:35:56.:36:01.

of us to make Scotland the country it could be. I think everyone wants

:36:01.:36:06.

a really good, positive, constructive campaign. One of the

:36:06.:36:09.

things I want to bring to this is a lot of high quality information to

:36:09.:36:14.

as many people as possible so it is a well informed debate.

:36:14.:36:19.

Do you think that is what we are seeing now in the social media? Do

:36:19.:36:23.

you think the arguments that are entirely constructive?

:36:23.:36:29.

It is not. We are really in the early days of social media. I do

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not think the ground rules have been properly sorted out. I do not

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think anonymous posting is a good idea as it encourages people to get

:36:39.:36:44.

into negative territory. If you look at America website, you get

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much more vicious, hostile and aggressive things said thing you do

:36:48.:36:54.

here. What people are using social media for is to engage with people

:36:54.:36:58.

in the campaign. A lot of people who asked me what they can do to

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help, I say to them something concrete. I say to them, if in the

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next two years you can convince one other person you know from your

:37:08.:37:13.

family and friends are your workplace who is currently not

:37:13.:37:16.

intending to vote for independence, that will make for a clear majority

:37:17.:37:21.

in favour of an independent Scotland.

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Do you accept that there is a newspaper bias as the SNP claimed?

:37:28.:37:33.

It do you think that will be an issue in getting the message out?

:37:33.:37:38.

The media message is important in creating the need music of any

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campaign. It is a free country. Some newspapers blur the difference

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between news and opinion. It is a free press and we will engage with

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that press. What will be the role of BBC

:37:53.:37:56.

Scotland? We needed to be an honest broker

:37:56.:38:00.

and continue to provide high quality information.

:38:00.:38:03.

Are you satisfied it is doing that as it exists now?

:38:04.:38:07.

I have nothing to declare to the contrary.

:38:07.:38:12.

Joining me now from Edinburgh is Richard Baker one of the five

:38:12.:38:17.

directors of the Better Together campaign. Thank you for coming in.

:38:17.:38:22.

Can we look first at the funding issue. Penny give us more clarity

:38:22.:38:28.

today about who will be playing for your campaign? -- paying for your

:38:28.:38:33.

campaign? There are no rules governing

:38:33.:38:37.

donations as yet. Despite that, we will voluntary abide by the

:38:37.:38:42.

appropriate legislation which is the elections and referendums Act

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which means we will not be accepting foreign donations and we

:38:47.:38:54.

will be publishing on our website all donations over �7,500. When

:38:54.:38:58.

Blair Jenkins talked about transparency in that, I am happy to

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agree with him about that and we will have the same level of

:39:02.:39:06.

donation transparency. Do you think it will be like the

:39:06.:39:16.
:39:16.:39:17.

Yes campaign, a limit on the amount people can give.

:39:17.:39:23.

We will publish the names of all donors over �7,500. But she will

:39:23.:39:26.

accept money from anyone anywhere in the UK?

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Will not accept foreign donations but we do not regard the rest of

:39:31.:39:39.

the UK as a foreign land. We are campaigning to keep the UK together.

:39:39.:39:47.

The SNP have a track record of accepting donations from overseas.

:39:47.:39:53.

Do you have any concerns that, at as the current speculation has been,

:39:53.:39:58.

most of the donations will confront a Conservative donors in the south.

:39:58.:40:02.

Do you have concerns that the perception will be that the

:40:02.:40:06.

campaign is bankrolled by so many interests, as opposed to the Yes

:40:07.:40:13.

campaign which is funded by donations from people in Scotland.

:40:13.:40:16.

This is the start of our campaign. We have had a very successful

:40:16.:40:22.

launch last week, based on people living in Scottish communities. We

:40:22.:40:26.

will push had for donations in Scotland. I hope we will see

:40:26.:40:30.

sizable donations from within Scotland.

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If we look at what the Better Together campaign is offering

:40:33.:40:40.

people, what will that be? If it is no to independence, what is it?

:40:40.:40:45.

Clearly, it is Scotland's remaining in the United Kingdom. We will put

:40:45.:40:50.

together a very positive case on why Scotland benefits in being part

:40:50.:40:55.

of the UK in terms of our position in the world, economy and shared

:40:55.:41:00.

society. We will put forward that positive case about the important

:41:00.:41:04.

question of whether Scotland remains in the United Kingdom.

:41:04.:41:10.

Blair Jenkins has said that he has no campaign based on any other

:41:10.:41:13.

question. It is about the fundamental question of remaining

:41:13.:41:18.

part of the UK. If it is yes, economically and

:41:18.:41:24.

socially, what vision do you offer. The Yes campaign say this is what

:41:24.:41:28.

Scotland will look like in 30 years. What is your patient of what

:41:28.:41:31.

Scotland will look like in 30 years' time?

:41:32.:41:36.

People can see now the benefits we have had from the UK, particularly

:41:36.:41:41.

in troubled economic times. The Bank of England's bailed out our

:41:41.:41:49.

banks. I have to say, when we look at the SNP of Blair Jenkins's

:41:49.:41:52.

campaign for independence, they are entirely unclear on how Scotland

:41:52.:42:01.

will look in 30 years. Now they say we will keep the Bank of England

:42:01.:42:04.

and the pounds and we will even still be British. A lot of people

:42:04.:42:09.

are saying, what is the point? We need far more clarity from the

:42:09.:42:19.
:42:19.:42:20.

campaign to break up Britain about We have no clarity from sure

:42:20.:42:25.

campaign about increased powers, there is no clarity there. Without

:42:25.:42:30.

that, all what do you offer? There are campaigns about Scotland

:42:30.:42:34.

remaining in the United Kingdom. The question of extra powers is for

:42:35.:42:39.

other forms. To clarify this point, I have you saying that there is not

:42:39.:42:44.

a specific vision you can offer? If you do not have a specific vision,

:42:44.:42:48.

if what you are offering is Stanion the United Kingdom and muddling

:42:48.:42:51.

along in a managed decline. What is your positive alternative for

:42:51.:42:56.

Scotland and when will we know the details for that? I think that

:42:56.:43:00.

staying a the United Kingdom is a positive alternative from

:43:00.:43:03.

independents, and people know what the United Kingdom means. We know

:43:04.:43:11.

the strengths of the UK and we know the challenges. I have to say to

:43:11.:43:16.

you, and you were not asking Blair Jenkins to define his vision for

:43:16.:43:18.

independence, there are huge unanswered questions about what

:43:18.:43:23.

independence will actually mean. The SNP have been changing their

:43:23.:43:27.

few week in week it. He did not ask Clare Jenkins whether he believes

:43:27.:43:31.

that an independent Scotland should remain in or out of NATO. To

:43:31.:43:38.

suggest that we have a lack of clarity of vision that the SNP have

:43:38.:43:42.

is simply absolute nonsense. We come to a second question, it

:43:42.:43:46.

should be quite clear that this is a fundamental issue which until

:43:46.:43:49.

recently all the main parties agree should be a clear a single question

:43:49.:43:54.

about whether Scotland should be in or out of the United Kingdom. Alex

:43:54.:43:56.

Salmond is taking his mind on that because he knows he will not get

:43:56.:44:00.

the answer he wants from the first question that people will now be

:44:00.:44:03.

asking why he is running chicken from the clear debate that we

:44:03.:44:07.

should have in this country over the future of Scotland and I want

:44:07.:44:11.

to engage in that debate. I think that Blair Jenkins was looking to

:44:11.:44:14.

engage that the bid constructively as well. I want to ask you about

:44:15.:44:22.

that any moment, but just for the avoidance of doubt, Blair Jenkins's

:44:22.:44:25.

job is not to articulate specific policy areas as you suggested, he

:44:25.:44:28.

makes that clear in his interview. He will not promote specific

:44:28.:44:32.

policies because the policies in the Independent gripping, the

:44:32.:44:36.

parties that support that, they could have different policies. His

:44:36.:44:41.

job was to put forward the argument for an independent Scotland, but

:44:41.:44:44.

not policy specific. There is no point in asking them for policy

:44:44.:44:48.

specifics. He wants an end to Punch and Judy politics, will that be

:44:48.:44:55.

possible? Can be put forward a positive case for Scotland being in

:44:55.:44:59.

the United kind? There is a positive case. We must move beyond

:44:59.:45:03.

process questions and on to a clear debate about the future of Scotland.

:45:03.:45:08.

I hope we can move on to that clear debate as quickly as possible. We

:45:08.:45:11.

will put forward a positive case for Scotland remaining in a the

:45:11.:45:15.

United Kingdom and will be arguing that England-Wales and the Northern

:45:15.:45:20.

Ireland and Scotland all benefit by being part of the United Kingdom. I

:45:20.:45:24.

do think that we will have a substantial debate and that the

:45:24.:45:29.

media will allow us to have this debate.

:45:29.:45:32.

The most discriminated against Great in our society, that is how

:45:32.:45:35.

one charity described children who are taken from their homes

:45:35.:45:40.

principally because of abuse and neglect and put into care. MSPs are

:45:40.:45:43.

now investigating why these children who are most acutely in

:45:43.:45:47.

need of stability permanency and loving relationships are

:45:47.:45:50.

systematically denied the structures and support which would

:45:50.:45:53.

enable them to thrive. Holyrood has just launched an inquiry into when

:45:53.:45:57.

children should be taken into care prompted by shocking findings from

:45:57.:46:04.

an earlier report into how look after children fare in school.

:46:04.:46:09.

There are 16,000 looked after children in Scotland. A recent

:46:09.:46:11.

report by the education committee looking at their educational

:46:11.:46:15.

achievement levels revealed stark findings.

:46:15.:46:18.

He suggested that youngsters in residential care and foster homes

:46:18.:46:23.

if performed about ten times worse in school than the average child in

:46:23.:46:27.

Scotland. The report also found that looked after children left in

:46:27.:46:32.

their family homes perform about ten times worse in exams than their

:46:32.:46:36.

counterparts in residential and foster care.

:46:36.:46:40.

The last finding particularly surprised MSPs, as their

:46:40.:46:44.

expectation had been that it looked after children left in the family

:46:44.:46:47.

home would do better educationally than those who went into other

:46:47.:46:52.

homes. Politicians concluded that the decision-making process leading

:46:52.:46:57.

to where a child is placed for care has a crucial impact on a child's

:46:57.:47:01.

life chances. The Education Committee's latest

:47:01.:47:04.

inquiry will look at whether the speed of decision-making in cases

:47:04.:47:08.

is appropriate, whether there is a presumption that children whose

:47:09.:47:12.

parents have addictions should be removed from the home, and it will

:47:12.:47:17.

also look at the balance of the Visa sign of children's care and

:47:17.:47:21.

ask whether the child's rights are being put before the parents. MSPs

:47:21.:47:24.

will now spend the next six months taking evidence that they hope will

:47:24.:47:30.

shine a light on where the state system is failing children in care.

:47:30.:47:37.

With me now he's the convenor of Holyrood's education committee and

:47:37.:47:41.

the President of the Association for social work and the chief

:47:41.:47:47.

executive of the charity, who cares Scotland?

:47:47.:47:52.

First of all, you charity exists to give children in care a voice, what

:47:52.:47:55.

do you think that we have to hear at this stage that we are not

:47:55.:48:04.

heeding yet? Nelson Mandela said, the most revolutionary aspect of a

:48:04.:48:10.

society's soul has hit its bed -- is how it treats its children and

:48:10.:48:14.

young people. We believe that Scotland has some soul-searching to

:48:14.:48:20.

do when it comes to her looked after children in care. We have it

:48:20.:48:23.

comes that we cannot be proud of, and we believe that our society as

:48:23.:48:28.

well as our politics and civil servants need to question their

:48:28.:48:32.

awareness of this issue. These are our children when we take them into

:48:33.:48:36.

care, their society's children. They go into care because there is

:48:37.:48:40.

not the stability, the loving caring and nurturing environment

:48:40.:48:44.

that would allow them to prosper and thrive, therefore rethink we

:48:44.:48:51.

can do better. I have a child and from the age of 16 she has a one-

:48:51.:48:56.

in-three chance when -- Sea has a one-in-three chance if she left

:48:56.:49:03.

home to become homeless, would I be happy if she has a one-in- 10

:49:03.:49:08.

chance of having a mental health issue? And if the education system

:49:08.:49:12.

could fill the to such a degree? That is not to say that these young

:49:12.:49:16.

people are so different, they're just as capable as other young

:49:16.:49:21.

people, we have taken them to summer school and Everest base camp.

:49:21.:49:25.

They have been massively discriminated against by the

:49:25.:49:33.

communities. A damning indictment for our society is that these

:49:33.:49:37.

children feel stigmatised because of their life in care. We asked

:49:37.:49:42.

what that was from, and they said that from the age of five they were

:49:42.:49:47.

never invited to another child's birthday party. It is things like

:49:47.:49:51.

that which exacerbates the situation. There are areas, then,

:49:51.:49:55.

when you look at statistics like health and education on the

:49:55.:49:57.

criminal-justice system, children in care are disproportionately

:49:57.:50:03.

represented there, but apart from what he will discuss in more detail,

:50:03.:50:07.

the immorality of not looking after them properly, or we are wasting a

:50:07.:50:10.

lot of potential for society as a whole. They are massively talented

:50:10.:50:16.

people. The resilience it takes to go through the care system is

:50:16.:50:19.

phenomenal, if you go into care, what we require as human beings,

:50:20.:50:26.

and we do not often reflect on this, but it is the relationships that

:50:26.:50:30.

guide us through life. Parents often act as a social and moral

:50:30.:50:34.

rudder to guide us to understand what is going on. How to be present

:50:35.:50:39.

that for children and young people? They can have up numerous numbers

:50:39.:50:45.

of adults or parents are placements that do not give them the stability

:50:45.:50:49.

which they need to thrive. He said that one child had 50 placements

:50:49.:50:53.

before she had turned 18. We should begin this by saying that

:50:53.:50:57.

this is an incredibly difficult area for social workers to work in,

:50:57.:51:01.

and nobody was going to social work in this area for an easy life. But

:51:01.:51:05.

when we look at the structures in place, for example, children who go

:51:05.:51:08.

into care because they have had to be taken from their homes because

:51:08.:51:11.

they are being abused or neglected, these are little ones to have done

:51:11.:51:16.

nothing wrong, but children who need immediate intervention. In a

:51:16.:51:21.

care home, they can have anything between 16 and 31 carers on one

:51:21.:51:25.

shift. If we look at something very basic, how difficult is it for

:51:25.:51:29.

these children to form the sort of permanent, stable and nurturing

:51:29.:51:34.

relationships that any other child can take for granted? I should

:51:34.:51:37.

start by saying that I wholeheartedly agree with Duncan's

:51:37.:51:41.

sentiments. We must be ambitious with children, particularly those

:51:41.:51:45.

who I believe are discriminated against, we must make sure they are

:51:45.:51:49.

looked after. It is difficult. As Duncan says, the resilience of

:51:49.:51:54.

these young people is something that Dele -- something that

:51:54.:51:59.

surprises me daily. We must just get these young people the tools

:51:59.:52:08.

they need to achieve their goals. I think that we need to look

:52:08.:52:11.

sometimes at how the system does work for some young people,

:52:11.:52:17.

particularly those who give a fair to. They begin in incredibly

:52:17.:52:21.

challenged circumstances and then come into care services and

:52:21.:52:23.

sometimes the care services really do transformed their lives for the

:52:23.:52:28.

better. But we must do better. I think one of the keys to do better

:52:28.:52:32.

is that we work together. Part of it is about ensuring that our

:52:32.:52:36.

society does not discriminate, except positively in favour of

:52:36.:52:41.

these young people. It is about teaching staff, it is about the

:52:41.:52:45.

public, it is also about employers in particular giving opportunities

:52:45.:52:51.

to young people for employment when they leave the care system. That is

:52:51.:52:55.

a huge issue given the recessionary impact on the economy in Scotland.

:52:55.:52:59.

What is wrong with us that this is not just an automatic response to

:52:59.:53:04.

these children? What is wrong with us as a collective? First of all,

:53:04.:53:08.

we must recognise that they are there. The fact is that today beset

:53:08.:53:12.

with the highest number of children looked after in Scotland for 30

:53:12.:53:19.

years. 16,100 young people are cared for in Scotland, with the

:53:19.:53:23.

majority being cared for at home. What we have to do is make sure

:53:23.:53:27.

they are not hidden from sight, secondly be must include them

:53:27.:53:31.

positively in all the opportunities that my children will benefit from

:53:31.:53:37.

in Scotland's society today, and I think that is a bit better

:53:37.:53:39.

healthcare, more factories were saying that is clear and a long-

:53:39.:53:43.

term, not short-term funding. It is about training people in the

:53:43.:53:49.

culture that actually forces them and enables them to recognise that

:53:49.:53:53.

young look after people are ambitious and achieving young

:53:53.:53:59.

people. We know that in Denmark, it comes

:53:59.:54:02.

across education Health, attainment, everything else would children in

:54:02.:54:05.

care, are pretty much the same as for children who grow up with their

:54:05.:54:11.

own parents in their own families to adults it, given what has just

:54:11.:54:14.

been said, hardly at all comfortable with the way that

:54:15.:54:19.

restructure her responses to these children? That I am not in the

:54:19.:54:22.

least that comfortable, I think that one of the things that we want

:54:22.:54:26.

to achieve is to highlight the situation, to give and the

:54:26.:54:28.

publicity to get Scotland thinking about the problems that these young

:54:28.:54:32.

people face, and that is the first thing that we want to achieve.

:54:32.:54:36.

Hopefully through programmes like this and others, we can bring some

:54:36.:54:41.

attention to the details. Clearly, as you said, there is a small

:54:42.:54:45.

Scandinavian country that is do much better than BR. If they can do

:54:45.:54:50.

it, surely we can as well. Although there have been marginal

:54:50.:54:56.

improvement in the past 10 or 15 years, various experts and

:54:56.:54:59.

governments have made a marginal on Britain, that is not good enough.

:54:59.:55:04.

Why is that? Why the think, as you see, it is almost not that people

:55:04.:55:07.

do not want to change, it is not that people are not aware of it,

:55:07.:55:12.

why does nothing changed? Why does it changes so slowly? That is part

:55:12.:55:15.

of the reason we're holding this inquiry, to find it what is

:55:15.:55:19.

happening in the process that is ending up with children failing to

:55:19.:55:23.

achieve not just educational, but also with other things in life.

:55:23.:55:26.

They are a higher proportion of the prison population than average,

:55:26.:55:30.

they hire problem with drugs and alcohol. We must ensure that we get

:55:31.:55:34.

to the bottom of this particular problem. We have known about this

:55:34.:55:39.

for so long, there have been many reports. It is as though people

:55:39.:55:43.

more of the problems but do not want to engage with them. It is a

:55:43.:55:46.

difficult and complex issue, it is so sensitive that people do not

:55:46.:55:50.

want to face up to some of the realities here. We have a decision-

:55:50.:55:55.

making process that we have been told that the first evidence has

:55:55.:55:59.

come and that it is too slow and complex. It takes far too long.

:55:59.:56:03.

Even if they tell was not yet born and we know there is a high risk

:56:03.:56:05.

factor with the family, it is taking too long to achieve

:56:05.:56:10.

permanence in a solution for those child. We know how critical those

:56:10.:56:13.

first two years are for the life chances of that child.

:56:13.:56:17.

We are almost out of 10. The key issue is that I am not sure we have

:56:17.:56:22.

given the right message to society. Society does not know the nature of

:56:22.:56:26.

this problem. They do not understand the roots of the style

:56:26.:56:30.

that where they come from. How many local authorities have consultant

:56:30.:56:34.

as to whether a residential did can be placed in the committee? They do

:56:34.:56:41.

not open their arms, they treat it like nuclear waste. Who are these

:56:41.:56:45.

young people? What has put them in this place? With relatively small

:56:45.:56:49.

investment, they will respond positively. Every match will step

:56:49.:56:54.

we take that they consume in their daily lives, they feel more

:56:54.:56:59.

marginalised. We must accept that citizens of this country need to

:56:59.:57:03.

give a stronger mandate for us to help these children. We're out of

:57:03.:57:06.

time today, but the programme will go back and look at specific areas

:57:06.:57:10.

here, because the evidence that is emerging to the committee is quite

:57:10.:57:14.

shocking. We will look at healthcare as children in the

:57:14.:57:18.

justice system and in care children in the healthcare system. We will

:57:18.:57:21.

have you back very soon to look at these things.

:57:21.:57:26.

Coronary heart disease is the second biggest killer in Scotland

:57:26.:57:29.

after cancer. �150 million a year is spent on tackling cardiac

:57:29.:57:32.

problems yet Scotland still has the highest rates of heart disease in

:57:32.:57:36.

Western Europe. Gilly Mathieson has been to Drumchapel where the

:57:36.:57:38.

Scottish parliament's public audit committee have been engaging with

:57:38.:57:48.
:57:48.:57:51.

locals asked them what is going Physios from dar Naval Hospital are

:57:51.:57:53.

working with the community to help those suffering from heart disease

:57:53.:57:58.

to remain fit and well. Glasgow is the capital of heart disease in

:57:58.:58:02.

Western Europe. I was out walking the dog one

:58:02.:58:08.

Sunday afternoon and I felt breathless. I phoned NHS 24 and

:58:08.:58:11.

described my symptoms and the next thing they said was that I should

:58:11.:58:17.

sit down and the end of -- and the ambulance is on his way.

:58:17.:58:23.

I did not think it would happen to me. I did the smoke. I attended

:58:23.:58:27.

cardiac classes were over 90 per cent of people who had heart

:58:27.:58:32.

problems smoked. In Scotland, at 8000 people a year

:58:32.:58:39.

die of heart disease and �150 million is spent on hospital

:58:39.:58:42.

treatment. A recent survey highlights the barriers preventing

:58:42.:58:45.

people from more deprived areas from being diagnosed early and

:58:45.:58:54.

treated quickly by the NHS. NHS 10 to -- men tend to turn up in

:58:54.:59:00.

the emergency room. In the more deprived areas particularly, people

:59:00.:59:04.

have less access to health information.

:59:04.:59:09.

Jackie is taking part in the keep well programme which works with

:59:09.:59:13.

locals in Drumchapel to address factors addressing their help. She

:59:13.:59:18.

suffers from heart disease but finds it difficult to make healthy

:59:18.:59:21.

choices. If you buy a wholemeal loaf, it is

:59:21.:59:28.

dearer than a white lie. If healthy food was cheaper, people would levy

:59:28.:59:35.

a lot longer. Today she is telling MSPs about her

:59:35.:59:40.

experience. It is part of the inquiry into the experience of

:59:40.:59:43.

services. We can bang on about things as much

:59:43.:59:48.

as we want but if we do not provide healthy food in local shops and

:59:48.:59:52.

affordable a, will not see that a change.

:59:52.:59:56.

How to encourage people to buy health defeat when fast food is

:59:56.:00:00.

seen as the cheaper option is challenging officials here.

:00:00.:00:04.

We need to build on the minimum pricing far alcohol led to station

:00:04.:00:10.

and build on that. For example, at more information about the

:00:10.:00:15.

healthiness of fruit. The emphasis is on getting the

:00:15.:00:21.

message out to have to read -- too hard to reach groups. They will

:00:21.:00:27.

address that in the report they publish after the summer recess.

:00:27.:00:31.

Gilly Mathieson there. Public trust in bankers has taken a battering in

:00:31.:00:35.

the past week and we will have more on that later in the programme but

:00:35.:00:39.

how much stronger is our trust in politicians and the political

:00:39.:00:46.

process? Some say it would be stronger if there was more

:00:46.:00:53.

transparency and scrutiny. I am joined now from our Edinburgh

:00:53.:00:57.

studio. Do we need more lobbyists?

:00:57.:01:04.

Yes, lobbyist do ads to be democratic process and provide

:01:04.:01:09.

briefings for MPs and MSPs and informers on a number of subjects.

:01:09.:01:15.

It is a legitimate part of the democratic process. However, they

:01:15.:01:19.

also work behind the scenes to influence legislation and policy

:01:19.:01:27.

and budget decisions. I think we should be shining a light on that

:01:27.:01:30.

process. So what are you suggesting

:01:30.:01:35.

specifically? You have mentioned a transparency register. What would

:01:35.:01:38.

have to be detail that the public consumption?

:01:38.:01:44.

It is a very simple process. We want an open register for people

:01:44.:01:49.

who fulfil certain criteria. We do not want to have the local Scout

:01:49.:01:59.

group of the Girl Guides having to fill in their in a form and

:01:59.:02:03.

register. That is fairly insignificant if they are talking

:02:03.:02:10.

to Parliament or their local representatives about something.

:02:10.:02:14.

Companies that are lobbying in a significant farm, they will fill in

:02:14.:02:20.

a form and say who they meet and what they met about ants provide

:02:20.:02:24.

some financial information. You have also said there must be

:02:24.:02:28.

independent oversight of this and credible sanctions. What you mean

:02:28.:02:33.

by that? The credible sanctions I think I

:02:33.:02:38.

need people to comment on. I do not want to create an expensive layer

:02:38.:02:44.

of bureaucracy to oversee this. The possibility is that and a existing

:02:44.:02:48.

organisation, for example the Information Commissioner as they're

:02:48.:02:52.

suggesting in England, could oversee this so we do not at an

:02:52.:03:00.

expensive bureaucracy. What was other points?

:03:00.:03:04.

There should be a degree of sanctions. If there are major

:03:04.:03:10.

breaches of what was proposed, in theory, a lobbyist could be struck

:03:10.:03:14.

off at the extreme end. If there were minor breaches it could be a

:03:14.:03:19.

warning letter. Though sanctions would be able to be seen. They

:03:19.:03:26.

would be publicly available. You feel that these levels of

:03:26.:03:30.

transparency are necessary to restore faith in the political

:03:30.:03:34.

process. You feel that strongly about it?

:03:34.:03:38.

I think politicians are perhaps not the lowest form of life in public

:03:38.:03:43.

opinion at the moment. I think you will find that his

:03:43.:03:46.

journalists. Not even journalists. It is bankers

:03:46.:03:52.

at the moment. Are standing is not at the lowest at the moment but my

:03:52.:03:56.

view is that because there has not been any lobbying scandals in

:03:56.:03:59.

Scotland like there have been in England, we should not be

:03:59.:04:04.

complacent and think there may not be problems here. I think it is

:04:04.:04:08.

better that we take proactive steps to put in place systems that would

:04:08.:04:11.

prevent the reputation of Parliament being damaged, rather

:04:11.:04:17.

than trying to recover a reputation will damage once it occurs.

:04:17.:04:22.

Thank you very much indeed for that. Now the lunchtime news with Andrew.

:04:22.:04:26.

Proposals to change the drink-drive limits will be open for

:04:27.:04:30.

consultation in the coming weeks by the Scottish government. Ministers

:04:31.:04:36.

have bowed to lower the limits as a priority. The new responsibilities

:04:36.:04:40.

are among powers being transferred from Westminster as a Holyrood

:04:40.:04:44.

under the recently passed 2012 Scotland Act.

:04:44.:04:50.

A 20 minute ultrasound scan which could detect those at an rest of

:04:50.:04:56.

abdominal aortic aneurysms have been rolled out across Scotland.

:04:56.:05:01.

Men over 65 are believed to be most at risk. It is thought the

:05:01.:05:05.

screening programme -- screening programme could save many lives a

:05:05.:05:07.

year. Andy Murray made history at

:05:07.:05:12.

Wimbledon last night as he made it 3-the 4th round at the men's

:05:12.:05:16.

singles. He raced against the clock to beat Marcos Baghdatis, finishing

:05:16.:05:23.

at the latest ever time of 11:02pm. This June has been one of the

:05:23.:05:28.

dullest, wettest and coldest on record. Let us see of the first day

:05:28.:05:38.
:05:38.:05:39.

of July brings us better news. Here Sunshine and showers is the picture

:05:39.:05:45.

today. The sunshine part is pretty hard to come by first then this

:05:45.:05:48.

afternoon. There are showers particularly an East but through

:05:48.:05:52.

the day we will see dry and brighter conditions feeding in from

:05:52.:05:56.

the West as by the ends of the afternoon most places will be dry

:05:56.:06:02.

with late brain has to end the day. Temperatures 13 to 17 Celsius. That

:06:02.:06:06.

is the forecast. That is all for now. Our next

:06:06.:06:16.
:06:16.:06:20.

bulletin is at 5:45pm. Back to is It has been a turbulent week in the

:06:20.:06:23.

banking world. This week the Prime Minister is expected to announce an

:06:23.:06:28.

independent review of regulations. Let us look at the potential fall-

:06:28.:06:38.
:06:38.:06:42.

I am joined by a financial journalist.

:06:42.:06:48.

Ian, let us look at the Miss selling scam. What do you think all

:06:48.:06:53.

this means about the average bank customer?

:06:53.:06:57.

I would imagine most bank customers are shocked and disgusted to

:06:57.:07:03.

discover that the leading banks, including Barclays and RBS and

:07:03.:07:07.

Lloyd's and other banks, have been engaging in systematically

:07:07.:07:13.

manipulating interest rates to benefit their own bottom lines. I

:07:13.:07:17.

think most customers will be really appalled but this has been going on.

:07:17.:07:25.

It has been going on for about five years, since 2005. The regulators

:07:25.:07:30.

did nothing to stop it. And in terms of what people might

:07:30.:07:34.

have lost financially, particularly in the insurance mists selling scam,

:07:34.:07:40.

do you think people will be looking for compensation?

:07:40.:07:43.

Berry definitely. The compensation claims could be so great it could

:07:43.:07:50.

bring down some of the banks. In the USA there are huge glass action

:07:50.:07:55.

lawsuits against banks that combines to try and rape of the

:07:55.:07:59.

global rates. I have spoken to two or three lawyers to represent small

:07:59.:08:02.

businesses who had been cheated by their banks and they are

:08:02.:08:08.

considering their positions. George, how do you think this could

:08:08.:08:12.

develop? Could there be expensive court cases and what effect could

:08:12.:08:15.

that have? The we have really not seen the

:08:15.:08:20.

worst of it yet. There were two glass actions launched in the

:08:20.:08:25.

United States and those damages could run into billions. It is very

:08:25.:08:31.

serious problems ahead. Although there is legislation in the words

:08:31.:08:39.

at Westminster to improve the strength of banks and safeguard

:08:39.:08:44.

depositors. That legislation is not likely to be on the books since --

:08:44.:08:50.

until at least 2019. You could fight a World War in that time. The

:08:50.:08:56.

politicians are talking a lot but they are not doing anything very

:08:56.:08:58.

quickly. Do you think there should be an

:08:58.:09:02.

inquiry? That would again postpone what should be done. Do we not know

:09:02.:09:07.

what the problem was here? It was an over-complex system,

:09:07.:09:11.

deliberately manipulating its, with derivatives traders running a

:09:11.:09:18.

marked? We are suffering from a disease our

:09:18.:09:27.

inquiries in this country. We are looking at more navel-gazing.

:09:27.:09:33.

Do we need criminal sanctions in this country?

:09:33.:09:38.

In America, if you fix prices you go to jail. In this country we just

:09:38.:09:43.

find the banks. At some point in the future the banks to recoup the

:09:43.:09:48.

money by putting the prices up. There is a moot point about whether

:09:48.:09:52.

or not he could take sanctions against those involved in this

:09:52.:09:57.

rigging? The first thing I would soon before thinking about an

:09:58.:10:02.

inquiry would be to phone of the Fraud Squad and get the people

:10:02.:10:05.

investigated to engaged in this activity.

:10:05.:10:09.

I know you have an opinion that there could be legal proceedings

:10:09.:10:13.

against people in this country but what is the role of the

:10:13.:10:18.

shareholders in all of this? Shareholders have failed abysmally.

:10:18.:10:24.

They sat quietly whilst banks were engaging in these activities. It

:10:24.:10:28.

was widely known in the markets that this was being manipulated.

:10:28.:10:33.

They could have tapped Bob Diamond on the shoulder and suggested he

:10:33.:10:37.

look at it. Overall, the shareholders do not come out of

:10:37.:10:43.

this selling -- smelling of roses. They have been pretty complacent

:10:43.:10:47.

and unaware of things that they ought to have been aware of. There

:10:47.:10:50.

is now this thing called a shareholders' spring where

:10:50.:10:54.

shareholders have been voting down excessive pay packages in a number

:10:54.:10:58.

of UK plc is and that is encouraging. There are signs

:10:58.:11:04.

shareholders are waking up from 20 years of sleepwalking. Both are

:11:04.:11:08.

what more is to come here? If I was Fred Goodwin of Bob

:11:08.:11:13.

Diamond, I would be pleading with the Crown Prosecution Service to

:11:13.:11:17.

prosecutes me because there is a high chance there will be

:11:17.:11:23.

prosecuted by the US authorities. The US authorities will seek their

:11:23.:11:27.

extradition. Not necessarily those to put it could be them of the

:11:27.:11:34.

bankers who are Bayern's to have a active role in manipulating global

:11:34.:11:38.

rates. I imagine that is one that outcome as I wrote in today's

:11:38.:11:44.

Sunday Herald. There are lots of different outcomes. I sincerely

:11:44.:11:47.

hope one outcome is that the Government wakes up to the fat are

:11:47.:11:52.

banking sector has been wholly as a control, corrupt, dishonest,

:11:52.:11:57.

deceitful and so on for far too long. What they have done to date

:11:57.:12:03.

has been utterly, utterly unlikely to change anything. The most recent

:12:03.:12:07.

report is like a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. It will not

:12:07.:12:13.

resolve the matter. We need a fundamental change of culture, as

:12:13.:12:20.

Vince Cable has been discussing. How you achieve that, I do not know.

:12:20.:12:23.

It would almost be better if the existing banks were allowed to fail

:12:23.:12:29.

and then we could start again from a clean sheet of paper and rebuild

:12:29.:12:34.

a some banks which were decent and which saw their purpose as been

:12:34.:12:37.

looking after the interests of their customers and of society,

:12:37.:12:42.

rather than the other way around. Vince Cable, the business secretary,

:12:42.:12:47.

has said this was a cesspit essentially. Is this the last

:12:47.:12:51.

banking scandal we will hear? Could there be more waiting?

:12:51.:12:56.

I would not be surprised if there was more. It just gets worse and

:12:56.:13:02.

worse. It is because of the culture. Rigging prices, conning the

:13:02.:13:10.

consumer and screen out of much does the system as you can, that

:13:10.:13:13.

was the atmosphere. People have to go to jail.

:13:13.:13:19.

The is that likely to happen? the public mood does seem to be

:13:19.:13:22.

changing. My worry is that because banking is

:13:22.:13:26.

the largest industry we have in this country, the politicians will

:13:26.:13:31.

always came into them. Part of the problem lies with the politicians.

:13:31.:13:37.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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