16/02/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland

Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be extremely

difficult if not impossible for an independent Scotland to join the

European Union. So says the president of the European

Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant development in the

independence debate. It is our top story. He has got the power to bring

travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow joins us for the

interview. Now the by-election, another second place for UKIP. Just

how big a threat does Nigel Farage's party pose for the Tory

party? And coming up on Sunday Politics

Scotland: The President of the European Commission says an

independent Scotland would find it "difficult if not impossible" to

gain approval from other member states for EU entry.

political panel in the business. The twits will be as incessant and

probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development

in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the

President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel

Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that

an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union

as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28

member states and that would be, in his words, extremely difficult, if

not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out

of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very

important, the application to the union would have to be approved by

all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the

secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your

democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely

difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have

a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that

Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is

a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be

externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't

want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive

into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex

Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to

the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with

England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last

week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically

get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that

they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get

the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more

significant than the application? The reference to Spain is

interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active

area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other

countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no

reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by

letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it

does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have

to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite

strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know

that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried

that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care

arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people.

We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the

currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the

polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would

prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that

these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls

tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for

error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of

reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in

the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a

member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both

of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already

told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is

playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister,

John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the

constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was

also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A

second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last

minute. The leader of the biggest

underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members

into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the

national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership

has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when

union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has

seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to

close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the

beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100

million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has

threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes.

Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the

moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of

all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it

quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices

would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone

wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep

them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not

the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking

offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a

booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less

than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness.

Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV

that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time

people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed.

People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit

behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent,

however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they

were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out

of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket

offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind

and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the

underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They

are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers?

Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got

some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a

whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in

decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million

people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per

day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We

are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more

people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming

home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people

drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of

the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I

want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I

think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because

you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what

that has got to do with it. Let's get every editor of the daily

newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to

know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that...

You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and

follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were

taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they

go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on

holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They

sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be

?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never

mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what

you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning, I

see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next

four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot

of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do

anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be

doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not

strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good

terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is, all

of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they

have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to

do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for

your members and why union membership has been rising, people

want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost

for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone

believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are

going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on

the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at

some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The

starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary

for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22,000 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a

teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had

to live through 24 strikes in 13 years to push up your members

wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by

conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the

teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the

end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up

the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are

fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all

support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars

around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members

pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if

we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who

travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care. Of

course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling

public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It

two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us

against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's

a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having

their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is

going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said

at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in

two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth

?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting

trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy

what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it?

Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx

says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and

the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of

it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out

for new technology. But for who? To put people on the dole, so they

can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so

everybody benefits, lower fares, better service and better terms and

conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the

underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute

technology for Labour. And that's what it's going to do, it is closing

the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless

trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this

because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming

in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it

is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it

breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be

stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who

cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality

is simple, it is a nonsense. It's not going to happen because it is a

Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless

but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small

section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me

about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over

their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created

all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many

people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the

stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and

greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better

service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the

ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single

ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes

of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long

transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket.

The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is

that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people

having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use

the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the

offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I

struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages.

They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is,

press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being

and what makes the London Underground so precious is that

people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out

on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the

concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London

Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices

and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially

sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the

closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed

to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal

with it. It is not the only way. They should supplement the staff and

the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want

more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of

your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30%

voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of

your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a

higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be

lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to

have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we

used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were

higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where

ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be

persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the

workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT

re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got

expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the

Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we

don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you

going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You

haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you

stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and

right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are

anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the

immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as

badly run as you think, why don't you run for mayor? That is down the

road, it has not come up yet. I'm not ruling anything out. I'm not

ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to

retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to

renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have

your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if

you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later

in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel

Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish

Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now

heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I

think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He

compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member,

Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to

reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are

compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been

part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work

about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership

of the European Union and that position has now been explained and

debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are

talking about the president of the European commission and we have

spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning,

it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that

Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they

will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it

if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state

of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish

membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if

there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an

independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue.

That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no

stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union

because it is important that Scotland is already part of the

European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union

and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation

in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that

David Cameron wants to have in 2017. It has not been a great week for

you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has

been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel

Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it

has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the

Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within

Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is

Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect

comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence

and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves

your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We

have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be

to establish the currency union. You would have to adopt the euro. That's

not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for

two years before you can apply for membership and an independent

Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or

the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our

arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests

of Scotland and the UK. Thank you sterling, which is in the interests

for joining us this morning. This week's least surprising news

was that Labour won the safe seat of Wythenshawe and Sale East in a

by-election, following the death of the MP Paul Goggins. With the result

so predictable, all eyes were on whether this would be the sixth time

this parliament that UKIP would come second. And whether they'd chip away

at Labour's vote, not just the Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed

up all night to find out what it all meant. Forget the hype. Forget the

theorising. And yes - everyone has a theory. UKIP are learning from us.

What have they picked up from you? To be silly. Thanks to this week's

by-election we've got some hard evidence in paper form that helps

answer the question: How are UKIP doing? Turns out the answer is well,

but not well enough to beat Labour. I'm therefore claim -- declare that

Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have come second and increased their

share of the vote quite significantly. But their performance

isn't as good as their performances in some of the other by-elections

this parliament. Just don't suggest to them that their bandwagon has

ground to a halt. A week ago you'd told me you were going to win, what

happened? No, I didn't, I said I wanted to win. My mistake. How are

happened? No, I didn't, I said I you feeling? It is a Labour

stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were

running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in

Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets

that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about

the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help

them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead.

Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they

could be on the right track. He's analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP

voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about

the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy

faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many

UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do

pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters

are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban

areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And

they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if

he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just

down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP

strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they

want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the

Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their

MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will

be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the

Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may

have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over

at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had

major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a

kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious

as that. The answer is, Carreon, chaps, you're all doing a very good

job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which

will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if

it is just parked. -- bandwagon. With me now is the Conservative MEP

Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He

will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You

came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky

Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very

unusual for any insurgent party, like the liberals used to be, to

actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back

to I think we did well. Though it

wasn't a breakthrough for UKIP, it pushed you into third place and

should be increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North. Tory minded

voters in the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you.

By-elections are by-elections. You need to look at them all and learn

the lessons from them. We need to look forward to the European

elections in 2014. That is in May this year. When we have a chance to

really grab this change in Europe, grab a change that Jose Manuel

Barroso has been talking about. Why, you don't worry that, particularly

in the North, if people want to vote against Labour, your supporters are

drifting to UKIP? People voted UKIP in a European

election. They bought that because they won't change. The problem is,

Patrick's party have had MEPs since 1989 and they cannot deliver that

change. The cat because they don't have seats in Westminster. The only

way we are going to get the change we want in Europe is to have this

referendum and have the renegotiation. What do you say to

that? Get real. The Conservative Party have not won a parliamentary

majority in 22 years. John Major failed in 1997. The only way you

will get the referendum, if that what motivates you, and I assume

with UKIP that is what motivates you, is if there is a majority

Conservative Government in the next election. And you could well stop

that from happening. I don't accept that. Just as we forced David

Cameron into a referendum pledge he had ruled out making before, and I

was there in PMQs when his MPs asked him and he said a referendum would

not be in the national interest because he did not want to leave,

our electoral success force that pledge and by winning the European

elections this may we can force Ed Miliband, against his will, to match

that pledge and then whatever formulation there is, we will get a

referendum. The Labour MPs in Westminster have just had the

chance, and the Labour peers have had the chance to say, we want the

referendum. The refused to do it. The only way you will get a

renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and in a

referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please, UKIP, will you

stop pretending that you can deliver because you do not deliver. We

already have delivered. We forced David Cameron to give a pledge for a

referendum he did not want to give. We will know by next election if you

are right about Ed Miliband. He will have to tell us. If Mr Miliband

holds out against giving you a referendum, what will you do? There

are loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. I have asked the David

Cameron and he firmly intends to lead the campaign to stay in. We

want to be out of the European Union. The Tories will say, vote

UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What do you say to that? We have probably maxed

out the Tory vote we are going to get because David Cameron has been

incredibly helpful and sending them in our direction. What we are

concentrating on is those blue-collar, disenchanted former

Labour voters and more and more of them are coming towards us. On our

messages on things like immigration and law and order. We want to

renegotiate our relationship with Europe. We need people who will turn

up to renegotiate with was a Manuel Barroso. So that is a Prime Minister

who is not Ed Miliband, but David Cameron.

who is not Ed Miliband, but David UKIP MEPs do not turn up in

Brussels. I have heard that said before. If Francois Hollande is as

good as his word and says there's been no substantial renegotiation

and no treaty change this side of 2017, when he is up for real action,

what will you do? He is a French socialist Prime Minister. He is the

one you have to negotiate with. You need to bring something with

substance back from these negotiations in Europe. People will

vote to leave. This is on a knife edge. The Prime Minister has been

very clear. Will you vote to leave? Unless we get what we want on a

renegotiation, we will leave us. Let's see what the deal on the table

is on 2017. If the status quo is what we have today, I would want to

leave. But I would want to renegotiate. Thank you. For those in

the East of England, you will be seeing even more of Patrick. You are

watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: The President of the

European Commission, Jose Manuel Barosso, pours cold water on easy

entry to the EU entry for an independent Scotland. It is a new

country and so I believe it is going to be extremely difficult, if not

impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,

getting the agreement. After the Chancellor rules out a

currency union post independence. Can the Scottish Government reassure

voters over our money? And is Cosla in need of some DIY?

Cracks appear over funding for our local authorities.

Good morning. It has been a week to remember in the independence

campaign. The president of the European Commission has said it

would be very difficult if not impossible for an independent

Scotland to become a member of the European Union. That marks are

causing a storm as the row over the future of the pound in an

independent Scotland rumbles on. I will address both issues in an

interview with the Finance Secretary in a moment, then we will speak to

the Better Together leader Alistair Darling. First, Andrew Kerr reports

on Whitehall's intervention in the debate on currency union.

It is a new country. I believe it is going to be extremely difficult if

not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries,

getting the agreement of the rest, but it is now for the British people

and the Scottish people in their referendum to decide about their

future. That was Jose Manuel Barroso speaking earlier this morning when

he was talking about the prospects of an independent Scotland's

membership of the year. It is an issue we will debate with John

Swinney and also we will be talking to the leader of the Better Together

campaign, Alistair Darling. They will both join me in a moment and we

will have a chat. In a meantime, let's go back to that report from

Andrew Kerr on Westminster's intervention in the currency debate.

The West Minister is established and enters the fray. Sir Nicholas

MacPherson, the permanent Secretary to the Treasury, has had his advice

against a currency union published. He is a powerful Whitehall mandarin.

Just like Sir Humphrey. I am not happy with this report. We will

redraft it for you. The Minister in this case the Chancellor was

certainly happy with the memo. It knocked down any hope of a currency

union. On the basis of the official advice that I have received from

double servants in the Treasury, and our advice is, they would not

recommend a currency union to the Government of the continuing UK. --

the official advice I have received from the civil servants. They have,

as we know, been very reluctant to have the pound involved in the

currency union and many of those people feel vindicated by the

problem is that the euro has had in recent years and they are pleased

that the UK never joined it. So I think that there is clearly a lot of

genuine scepticism about the wisdom of formal currency unions between

sovereign states and that is reflected in that letter. In the TV

studios, the First Minister was then forced to present a calm and

reasoned approach to the metaphorical rug being pulled from

under his feet. The Yes campaign has to explain our case in reasonable

fashion and see whether logic is in the low back on our side. -- whether

logic is on our side. It is also in the interest of England as well. A

strong hand that has been shown by the UK Government, but what happened

to the pledge not to renegotiate? Ben Thomson from reform Scotland is

arguing for more powers for Scotland. He watched the

Chancellor's speech and is anxious for more detail. If they are

starting to be this clear, but they will be more clear about some of the

other things. About what a noble will mean. -- what a No vote will

mean. At this week has shown us is the hard negotiations that could

take place between the two sides. Alex Salmond has warned that

Scotland would not take on its share of the estimated ?1.6 trillion of UK

national debt come a possible Independence Day. Unless he can get

a slice of shared assets including the pound. But Westminster could

retaliate by frustrating Scotland's attempt to enter international

institutions. In terms of using international organisations to get

Scotland in line, it is much more likely to be EU. EU membership

because it will be so political when it comes to negotiating and Scotland

will have a relatively weak hand in negotiations for EU membership.

Because so many EU countries are against Scottish independence. That

would be the institutional leveraged that would most likely be used to

sort of make Scotland accept a certain term that it didn't. I

wouldn't think NATO membership would be useful. That is for the

long-term. In the event of a Yes vote. In the short-term, it will be

interesting see how the polls react, whether Scots feel the pound

in their pocket is under threat or if they feel bullied by Westminster

politicians. I am joined now from Dundee by the

Finance Secretary. Good afternoon to you. Let's start with the comments

from Jose Manuel Barroso this morning on the BBC. He said it will

be very difficult if not impossible to get agreement from all other EU

members for Scottish membership. That is definitive. His remarks are

pretty preposterous because you didn't quote his full interview. He

suggested that Scotland was in the same position as Kosovo. Kosovo is

not a member of the European Union. Scotland has been part of the

European Union for 40 years. I think that very significant difference of

the fact that we have been participants in the European Union,

are legal framework is compatible with the European Union, we have

been willing partners and participants in the European Union,

ensures we are in a fundamentally different position from the one

articulated by him. He didn't compare Scotland to Kosovo. He used

that and it is an example where Spain said it would not want to go

down the road of allowing EU to recognise Kosovo's independence.

That is the position he believes Spain may well add up if Ford a vote

on Scottish membership. -- may well adopt if offered a vote. What has

been said is that if the arrangements going into the unity

kingdom for the referendum essentially agreed arrangements

between Scotland and the rest of the UK, as epitomised by the Edinburgh

Agreement, signed in October 2012 between the First Minister and the

Prime Minister. The Spanish Foreign Minister is saying, if you have got

an agreed process in the UK by which Scotland can become independent,

Spain has got no opinion on the issue of the outcome of the

referendum. But it will have an opinion on whether it agrees to let

Scotland into the EU. The Spanish Foreign Minister has accepted that

the United Kingdom is taking an approach which leads to an agreed

independent settlement between Scotland and the rest of the mighty

kingdom. He can veto EU membership for Scotland. As a consequence, it

enables us to establish the platform by which Scotland becomes a member

of the European Union. Not a single state in the European Union has made

any remark about the fact that it would be in any way likely to beat

all Scottish membership of the bee you. I can see why they would want

to do that. -- membership of the EU. The history of the EU has been about

expansion, growth, involving new members, bringing more countries

into the fold of the European Union. Scotland has been a willing and

active participant of the EU for 40 years. Let's move on to the currency

union. Have you looked again at the different options available to an

independent Scotland with regards to currency? The fiscal commission

produced a report for us which had a range of different options that were

available to an independent Scotland. What we did as the

Government, and it is the right thing to do, was to listen to

international expert opening in and to conclude what was the right thing

in the interests of the people of Scotland. And the preferred option

of the fiscal commission was to establish a currency zone where

Scotland and the rest of the UK would continue to use the same

currency. I understand that is your preferred option. But are the other

option Jew have looked at workable? Of course. The fiscal commission

made that clear. -- the other options you have looked at workable?

In relation to arrangements around about fiscal sustainability, it is

possible. So there is no reason not to join the euro other than a

political decision? It would involve a Scottish Government taking a

number of decisions not least of which would be to voluntarily join

the exchange rate mechanism of the European Union and we have no

intention of going down that route. We have decided that that is not one

we would pursue. My point about the arrangements that the fiscal

commission set out was that they put in place an integrated package of

measures and the Chancellor would have been better served if he had

actually looked at the integrated package of measures that the fiscal

commission set out, because it was very similar to the ground covered

by the Bank of England governor when he came to Scotland a couple of

weeks ago and set out the arrangement by which it would be

practical and possible to arrange a currency union between Scotland and

the rest of the UK. And the type of considerations that would have to be

in place to make that work. The chat a lot has taken the same position

you have taken on the euro. You have said the euro is workable but as a

Government you do not want to go down that road. Isn't the Chancellor

making the exact same point to you? A currency union could be workable,

but politically the Chancellor is saying now. The governor of the Bank

of England said it was perfectly workable to be completely

arrangements for a currency union, but what he said and which I accept

is that there are a number of additional factors you have to put

in place to ensure that can work and many of these factors, which the

substance of the report brought forward by the fiscal commission,

which covered the whole range of different issues around the

integration of the financial services market, and the issues

around fiscal sustainability. Is your position that the Chancellor is

bluffing? That is my position. What the Chancellor did not do on

Wednesday and I think he did not do this in relation to a question asked

by one of your colleagues, was set out the negative implications for

the rest of the 80 kingdom of his refusal to go down the route of the

currency union. -- the rest of the United Kingdom. He is saying I will

lumber you with ?500 million worth of additional transaction costs if I

for Scotland not to use the pound sterling. What that attacks is the

canonical well-being of the rest of the United Kingdom and it makes

absolutely no sense. -- is the economic well-being. Scotland's oil

and gas resources, our whiskey resources, would not be part of the

balance of payments of the sterling zone. So the Chancellor has got to

think much more widely about the implications of this issue for the

rest are beginning to kingdom and come to a sensible position. His

contribution on Thursday could and now we have been described as

sensible or measured. Isn't the problem for you that it is not just

the Unionist whose your position is wrong, it is also several members of

the Yes Scotland campaign, such as Colin Fox. Patrick Harvie of the

Green Party. They all believe in independent Scotland should have its

own independent currency. Why are they wrong? That is their position.

They are entitled to argue for their position. What I must do is explain

the position of the two Scottish Government -- of the Scottish

Government that has been formed by taking the opinions of international

economist who have made a six and shall -- who have made a substantial

contribution to the debate in Scotland. For the Chancellor to say

on one hand he would not negotiate and then to come to Scotland with

the diktats has caused the problem in this country that Scotland will

not be pushed around by a UK Chancellor. Other people are saying

a different option should be looked at, isn't that a form of bullying in

itself? It is not. We have to put forward a comprehensive and

considered proposal about how Scotland can become an independent

country. We have worked hard for years to put that together, it is

what is published, it represents the solid work we have put in place to

make sure Scotland has a workable plan to become an independent

country. I'd micro-thank you very much. I am joined by Alistair

Darling of the Better Together campaign. Jose Manuel Barroso is

saying it will be difficult for an independent Scotland to regain

independence because of countries like Spain. The consensus of

international opinion is that Scotland would have to reapply to

enter Europe. Councils in the European Union are anything but

straightforward. In any discussion you have you are always up against

the fact you have countries arguing their own corner, sometimes things

which have nothing to do with the subject in hand. The objectives of

countries like Spain for example which are very weary about

recognising any new countries, it would be anything but plain sailing.

-- wheelie. -- wary. Of course it is an advantage of the European Union

to have members within it but what Jose Manuel Barroso was saying today

is that the discussions that will take place will be anything but

plain sailing. I can see them dragging on for years. It takes an

inordinately long time to agree everything. Your view would not have

that. This would be the first time a country was breaking away from an

existing member state and then applying to get back in again. Alex

Salmond said he had an opinion that we would get in with no questions

asked but you are now being asked to trust this same person who said he

had a legal opinion when he did not. You are being asked to believe him

over a large number of people in the European Union who say it is

anything but plain sailing and you have to get 28 member states to

agree to the proposition which many of them would find difficult. Taking

the politics out of it, it is the currency union the logical position

foreign independent Scotland? Now, I do not think it would stack up for

Scotland or the rest of the United Kingdom. You need three ingredients,

the banking union whereby in effect the rest of the UK which would be

ten times larger than Scotland would have to underwrite Scotland's

banking system. Secondly, you need the system for large sums of money

moving it from those areas doing well to those that are perhaps

struggling. They may be difficult but they are doable? You need a

banking union, a facility to transfer money and both sides to

agree the others tax and spending. What you see here is something that,

if you have a currency union it takes two countries to agree to

something, there is no law that says they must do it. I foresee

difficulties. At the moment we have a single currency, the pound, it

works because we have a political union, and economic union, we can

transfer money around from richer too put pads and so on. We are being

asked to give up that pound what we now need to do is find a replacement

for the pound, something that Alex Salmond cannot or will not tell us.

Do you think there can be any negotiation between the Scottish

Government and Mark Carney going forward? It is a political decision

to be taken by the rest of the UK and Scotland in the event we vote

for a break in September. The bank of England can only exist because

the government stands behind it. I know that full well from my

experience. The bank of England can only fix interest rates. In terms of

the money it spends, that comes at the moment from UK Government. It is

a political decision at the end of the day. The plans for a currency

union in economic terms simply do not stand up. I'd macro there is an

economic place for the rest of the UK from what the Chancellor has

said. We sell more goods and services to the European Union than

anyone else in the world but we are not joining the euro. We sell a lot

of goods and services to America but we are not joining the dollar. Scots

stand to lose far more from independence than firms south of the

border. At the moment they can sell any rare any market of 63 million

people because of the economic and political union. The Nationalists

want to break that up and are now saying let's invent something to

patch up the difficulties. Quite clearly a currency union is off of

the table, we need to know what a replacement for the pound would be.

It is not good enough for us to trust the Nationalists to simply say

trust us, we are right and the rest of the world is wrong. If this is

your negotiating position... I am not negotiating, I am simply

pointing out what is what. Should we get a common position from the

parties and Better Together on other issues like whether or not the rest

of the UK would support Scottish entry into the EU for instance? The

Edinburgh agreement was an agreement to hold the referendum and abide by

the outcome. Whichever way Scotland votes there is no going back on

that. It is not very constructive to say we are not going to negotiate on

this big issue. Surely on an issue like the currency, the single

biggest issue which will affect people's mortgages, savings, how

much they will be on loans, isn't it better to know now whether or not

there would be a currency union? The fact of the matter is they will not

be. Will be be other common positions? It must be better to note

the common positions. Can we expect a common position on the situation

as regards Scotland's EU membership, issued energy for

existence? With Europe, whatever position the UK or parts of the UK

were to take, the matter is not in our hands, it is in the hands of 27

other member states who have their own internal politics and jockeying

for position on a whole range of interests. It does not have to be

about the merits of Scotland, it can be about the price of all of all of

oil, agriculture policy and so on. Both sides are agreed that whatever

the result in September, there is no going back on it, no second chances,

we abide by it. To a large extent Scotland will be throwing itself on

the mercy of the decisions taken by 27 other member states who, frankly,

have their own battles to fight. There are so many uncertainties

here. We have a massive amount of risk and uncertainty which will cost

lives and ones we do not need to take. A row over the weekends are

funded is threatening to split local government down the middle. Several

local government say they are not getting their fair share from the

Scottish Government. This has brought COSLA to boiling point. Two

big councils have said they planned to leave if things do not change. As

a local government correspondent has been finding out, some Labour

councillors say DIY is needed to fix COSLA or they will leave. It is the

time of year when councillors have been deciding what to spend cash on.

Times are hard for all councils just now but most still find money to

support their local priorities. In Renfrewshire last week's local

budget helped the scheme for this business to grow. But there were

many hard choices to balance the books. Renfrewshire gets ?300

million per year from the Scottish Government but it says it should be

getting far more. Renfrewshire I does not get a fair share from the

Scottish Government, 18 million less than we should be on the average

council when they should be getting more because we have the our fair

share of problems in terms of deprivation. Councils get 80p of

every pound they spend. The minister responsible for councils used to

read Renfrewshire himself and has limited sympathy with his successors

claims. We all argue for the indicators that best suit us which

is natural. There are some rural areas with a geeky thing population

and others with an increasing one. The current system has served us

well over the past number of years. This disagreement is so serious it

threatens to rupture COSLA, the Lizzie Power struggle, Labour leads

16 of the 32 councils and gets COSLA most of its cash. -- their is a

power struggle. Coors light cannot take a stand on issues that divide

councils like the funding deal. -- COSLA. We are a huge contributor to

growth and a huge contributor to the economy. We need to see that

reflected at a Scottish level. Aberdeen and Renfrewshire are

expected to be joined by more Labour councils. These other areas are also

set to decide whether to quit. Dumfries and Galloway has also

separately said it may leave. Some fear a big split in the body that is

meant to help them all will ultimately do little good. If COSLA

did not exist then councils would want to invent it. I do not think it

is good enough for a few councils not to get their way and to walk

away, I think that would leave them in a poor place. Critics believe it

could sometimes take a stronger line on controversial issues and if those

Labour critics do not get the repeal is they want, there could be a real

split in the collective voice of local government. You are watching

Sunday Politics in Scotland now let's join Andrew Kerr for the news.

Good afternoon. The president of The European Commission has said it

would be extremely difficult if not impossible for an independent

Scotland to join the EU. Jose Manuel Barroso said Scotland would have to

apply for membership. It would need agreement from the member states.

The battle over the future of the pound in an independent Scotland is

continuing this lunchtime. John Swinney said the Chancellor was

bluffing in his refusal to countenance a sterling currency

union postindependence ad called for talks with the Treasury to look at

the issue. But the leader of the Better Together campaign said a

currency union would not stack up for Scotland or the United Kingdom.

Team GB's men curlers have lost their penultimate match of the round

robin stage at the Winter Olympics, going down 7-6 to Norway. The defeat

for skip David Murdoch and his team leaves them on five wins and three

defeats. That is what happens with these games. A lot of these games

are 50-50. Unfortunately we missed a couple of crucial shots today to get

in front and start dominating them. Now let's take a look at the weather

with Gillian. Now let's

A cracking afternoon to come for most of us as a ridge of high

pressure delivers blue skies and sunshine. A few showers across

western Scotland and more frequent showers over the far north of the

mainland and the Northern Isles, accompanied by strong winds and snow

on the hills. For most places, crisp sunshine. Around 60 sea sand with

light winds that will not feel bad in the sunshine. -- around six

Celsius. A risk of ice. Back to Gary.

Thank you. In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up in

Holyrood but let's take a look back at the beach in 60 seconds. Scots

are less concerned about immigration than those south of the border

according to a new survey. However, 58% of respondents here still said

they favoured few new arrivals. The majority favour less immigration

rather than more. But they are less likely to take that view than people

in England and Wales. ScottishPower announced it would be doubling the

capacity of its hydroelectric power plants in the north of Scotland.

Drivers are facing a bumpy ride at the moment and it emerged this week

that Scottish councils are spending more than ?1600 per day compensating

those whose cars have been damaged by potholes. Plans to appoint a

named Guardian for a Scottish child was opposed by the Church of

Scotland, saying the idea would diminish the role of parents. MSPs

will turn to Hollywood this week for the final stage of the debate.

-- Hollywood. -- Holyrood. Let's have a look at the papers

ahead of the week. Joining me this week is polling meal. Good

afternoon. They start with the remarks from Jose Manuel Barroso.

Clearly a significant intervention, is it going to be a setback to the

Yes campaign? To have him say that it would be difficult if not

impossible for an independent Scotland to secure membership of the

European Union? It is not a significant contribution. It is

nonsense. His credibility just goes down and down. The one thing being

you is is an expansionist organisation. They have been

desperate to take all kinds of countries in and we are in a

desperate to take all kinds of countries in and situation, a stable

Christie, a country with major resources and controlling a huge

maritime territory. A country that would be a net contributor and he

said no. There is argument is four but there are countries with vested

interests, secessionists concerns they might actually try and put the

brakes on this. Alistair Darling made the point that membership might

happen but it could take a long time. The Spanish Prime Minister

will have to and third to his fishermen who are going to be so

delighted if they even temporarily have Scotland out of the EU and

Scotland has to say, you are not fishing in our territory. We have a

very strong bargaining position. And the noise coming out right now is

just politics in being you. Do we have to see this in the context of

Jose Manuel Barroso being a politician, some SNP politicians are

saying that he is playing politics. I think it is clear now that

Scotland, and the new member states, would have to apply. So at least the

voters know there would have to be an application, and on what terms?

The statement today, I can understand why he is saying it could

be difficult. Because we know that politics will get played in Europe,

although it is inconceivable in the long run that Scotland would not be

a member. The question is, how long would it take? Perhaps he have to

and so the question as to why he is saying that it is impossible for

Scotland to be a member. -- perhaps he has to. The voters will have to

accept it will not happen immediately. There may be protracted

negotiation that it is up to other EU member states to make that

decision. Because voters will be aware that all member states must

agree for Scotland to be part of the EU. I am perspective on it is that,

in the long run, an independent Scotland would join the EU. But how

long would it take? Would it be palatable to most people? Let's talk

about currency. Given interviews today, it will dominate next week as

well. Alex Salmond is making a speech to business leaders in

Aberdeen tomorrow. A couple of newspaper today are focusing on this

as well. The Sunday Herald is one of them. Is this, in your view,

bullying from Westminster? Or are Westminster politicians right to

say, this is our line in the sand? It is entirely predictable. The

British establishment is determined to hold on to Scotland for a very

good use and is -- for a very good reasons. We have many resources. We

are aware of the key their nuclear bombs. They will do and say anything

to try to get a No vote. So you do not believe them when they say it is

in the best interests of the rest of the UK for the UK to stay together?

Now. It would not be my first option. -- Calmac. The UK has

serious debt problems. It has lots of difficulties coming down the

line. -- no. It is saying it is going to sacrifice this balance of

payments contribution? Is it that a lament of Scotland's contribution

towards debt? We have got the Sunday Times as well today. They say they

have spoken to some business leaders or at least the economic and social

research Council has, and some of those business leaders are worried

about lack of certainty in the event of a Yes vote. One or two have

talked about leaving Scotland. We have heard the stories before. Does

this class as scaremongering? I think that both sides, the yes and

no campaign, are aware that the currency is the most critical issue

for voters. So you will see this more. Is it a bluff or not? And the

former Labour politician, are you comfortable with all of the

pronouncements you saw this week? It starts with the Governor of the Bank

of England's declaration that it is not impossible but the terms of the

currency union are quite strong. It is clear to me that even if the SNP

were to win the argument about currency, they will have to concede

a great deal of sovereignty to get it. And what in the white paper are

they prepared to negotiate to get it? We have politicians saying we

are not prepared to take the risk based on this assessment.

Therefore, I think the onus is on the Yes campaign took provides

uncertainty around this. The problem for the Yes campaign in the weeks

and months to come is that there is no unity in their side. Around what

the alternative currency would be. So, of course, as an individual, I

would want the best for Scotland whatever Scotland voted for. I think

voters, hardly anyone has talked about the voter in all of this

debate about currency. We need to know the implications, what is the

currency and what is the alternative currency if the SNP did not win the

argument and Howard that impact people's pensions? From the point of

view of ordinary people, yes. -- Howard that impact people's

pensions? The options would be either using the pound but not in

the currency union, or having a Scottish pound which is pegged to

sterling, which means interchanges the same. That is as it applies to

the individual. What you will find is that, irrespective of what comes

from the Government, you will find more work on deciding which is the

preferred plan B, or for some people it might be the plan A, coming from

people on the yes side. Not necessarily SNP ministers? I don't

know. That would answer your question. When you talk about

negotiation and the onus being on the SNP, is it right that the

Westminster Government should say, seven months out, here is our line

in the sand? Voters once uncertainty around the debate from both sides.

It is going to be negotiating, isn't it? It is going to be two

negotiations. I am sorry, we have to leave things there. There is a lot

to talk about, but not enough time. That is all from us this week. I

will be back at the same time next week. Goodbye.