Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning from Manchester, where politicians and the Labour | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
conference are trying to work out what the independence fallout means | :00:20. | :00:20. | |
for the rest of the UK. Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday | :00:21. | :00:58. | |
Politics. Scotland's decision to vote no means more power is heading | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
north of the border, but what about home rule for England? Independence | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
for Scotland has been his life's work,. First Minister Alex Salmond | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
tells us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And an | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour MPs think | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
about immigration, the EU and their party. We will ask the Shadow | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
Business Secretary if he agrees. Coming up in | :01:26. | :01:26. | |
Sunday Politics Scotland: Alex Salmond accuses Westminster | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
of reneging on further devolution. We'll be talking | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
about the delivery of those extra for the capital? With me, the best | :01:31. | :01:48. | |
and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote, | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
there was nothing about English-only votes. It was unconditional? The | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
issue. That was very cautious. -- cautiously. These proposals will not | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says, | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away | :03:13. | :03:28. | |
these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism. | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night, | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers, | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
but it's not clear you will get either before the general election. | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws. | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment. | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
something called the Barnett Formula. | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett. | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
And it's how the UK government decides how much | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
It's controversial, because it's led to public spending | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England. | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that. | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab. | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them, | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
and if anything was counter-productive to the overall | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK, | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK | :08:47. | :08:55. | |
-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
oil revenues it sends to London. Scotland is only getting back on | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is, | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't | :10:14. | :10:15. | |
he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people? | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's | :10:49. | :10:50. | |
deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
joining us. The man responsible | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
announcements, and he gave us another on Friday | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole | :11:16. | :11:38. | |
place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare | :11:59. | :12:10. | |
Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night, | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around | :12:31. | :12:40. | |
five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say, | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England, | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon? | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues, | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work. | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it, | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not | :15:40. | :15:48. | |
really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city. | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away, | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland, | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right, | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy. | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically, | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed. | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
carried the Yes Campaign so far, almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
put his Scottish Sun behind you, would have that made the difference? | :19:32. | :19:41. | |
If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers, I | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if | :20:30. | :20:41. | |
you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing | :21:23. | :21:24. | |
on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads. | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the | :21:57. | :21:58. | |
last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25% | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the | :23:08. | :23:17. | |
opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday, | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee, | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song, | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me. | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you? | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
chore. I'm not saying they didn't do it properly, I am sure they did. But | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it | :24:42. | :24:53. | |
will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! Thanks for joining us. Great | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an | :25:23. | :25:23. | |
exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates. | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit. | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
terms of what is left and right. I think they see it in terms of what | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out, | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
majority of your viewers. I don't think your viewers think the idea of | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
scrap Trident, not party policy? It isn't. | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
the time of the next general election, not including current MPs. | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in | :29:44. | :29:54. | |
terms of who runs the next government. That one of your | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the | :29:57. | :29:58. | |
unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer? | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars. | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
you need a constitutional conversation where you have to | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
discuss whether English people voting on English matters is | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice, | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs. | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I | :33:20. | :33:21. | |
can't Per capita spending in Scotland is | :33:22. | :34:31. | |
way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, yet per capita incomes in | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair for a Labour | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
politician? We have said is we want to have more equitable distribution. | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
You said you were retrying the Barnett Formula. The other McKerr | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
I'm not sure necessarily punching Scotland is the way to go. I have | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
two say, what message do this -- does this send to the Scottish | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
people? I am absolutely delighted with the result we have got, the | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
Unity, the solidarity we are maintaining across the nations of | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
the UK, and I think all of this kind of separatist talk, setting up | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
different nations of the UK against each other, goes completely against | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
what we have all been campaigning for over the last two years. We | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
shouldn't have any truck with it. Will come onto the announcement on | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
the minimum wage. You will increase it by ?1 50, to take it to ?8. That | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
would be over five years. Over five years, that is all you are going to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
do, and have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
in taxation and fewer benefits? Work is being done on it. So how much? I | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
can give you an exact figure. The policy absolutely pays for itself, | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
and the way we have looked at this, we have looked at the government's | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
own figures, because of people are earning more, they therefore would | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
be paying more in income tax, they will be receiving less in benefit, | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
we will have to pay out less in tax credit. So we are absolutely | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
confident that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking you about the | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
payment, but what it means for low paid workers. They are going to get | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
an extra 30p an hour. How much of the 30p did I get to keep? I'll tell | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
you what it means. In terms of what they actually get in the first | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
instance, somebody on the minimum wage now with our proposal will be | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
getting in the region of ?3000 more per year than they are at the | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they get to | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
keep? We are confident we the modelling on this, and I can give | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
you an exact figure. If you have done the modelling, why can you give | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
me a figure? We are talking about some of the lowest paid people in | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
the country. We are confident they would be better off. I would suggest | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
that with this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50, | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
60, or 65%. They would not keep most of this increase you are talking | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
about. I don't accent your figures, and we are confident that... I don't | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
have any in my head which I can give you right now! Do you think up | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
policies before you announce them? Of course we think of that would up | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
policies before we announce them. We think people will be better off with | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
the change we are proposing, and we are also seeking to incentivise | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
said, the economy is recovering, great. But we know at the moment, it | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
is still delivering for a huge number of your viewers, and we are | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
determined to do something about that. The status quo isn't enough an | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
option. Thank you for joining us. Twice in three days! You can have | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
too much of a good thing! I am mad! He said that not me. It has just | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
gone 11:35 a.m.. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, but not for | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
After Scotland votes decisively to remain within the UK, the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
First Minister seems to suggest the public were tricked into voting No. | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
I am actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments. I | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
am only surprised by the speed at which they are doing it. They seem | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
to be totally shameless in these matters. | :38:13. | :38:13. | |
All three parties pledge themselves to further devolution, but will they | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
Scotland's political firmament was shaken on Friday. | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
An unforgettable week in which a majority of | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
It lead to the departure of one of the most outstanding politicians | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
With Alex Salmond gone, Scotland and the rest of the UK now | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
But the referendum result leaves large question marks hanging over | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
the future leadership and direction of the Scottish National Party, | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
Bute house, the First Minister's official residence. On Friday, the | :38:45. | :39:01. | |
setting for a surprise statement. After the people of Scotland had | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
made their views clear on independence, the First Minister | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
ended speculation about his future. I believe that this is a new, | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
exciting situation that is redolent with possibility. But in that | :39:13. | :39:21. | |
situation, I think that the party, Parliament and country would benefit | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
from new leadership. Therefore, I have told the national secretary of | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
the SNP that I shall not accept nomination leader at the annual | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
conference in Perth on the 13th to 15th of November. In poetic | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
language, the fight was clearly not. | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
For me as leader, my time is nearly over, but for Scotland, the campaign | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
continues, and the dream shall never die. | :39:48. | :39:55. | |
But with that charismatic, electorally successful leader Don, | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
who can now succeed him? Well, Nicola Sturgeon is the obvious | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
answer. Likely to be crowned with no contest. The external affairs | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Minister has tweeted his support. He is in the frame for the deputy's | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
post, and he is politically close to Ms Sturgeon. Derek Mackay, the local | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
government minister, might want to challenge him, and Alex Neill will | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
be closely watched. He stood for the leadership in 2000. So, how does the | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
party move on? Squabble with Westminster over more powers, or | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
offer some more radical approach, claiming the power of the 45% behind | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
you? A Yes vote would have been an impressive win for the master of | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
Bute house, but the new First Minister will have to settle for | :40:41. | :40:41. | |
less, at least at the moment. Well, a little while ago I spoke to | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
the Finance Secretary, John Swinney, I asked him | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
whether it was wise that the First Minister has been quoted this | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
morning saying that the Scottish I think it pretty accurately sums up | :40:57. | :41:11. | |
what has been going on over the last three days. It is a very solemn | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
commitment that was given by the UK political parties during the | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
referendum, and they were decisive, in my opinion, because I met many | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
people who are contemplating voting Yes, but decided to vote No because | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
they thought they would get more powers, and so it had an affect on | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
the outcome in my opinion, very strongly. And we now find ourselves | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
looking at all sorts of comments that have been made by the Prime | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
Minister, by various figures within the Labour and Conservative parties | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
that suggest there is more than a little backsliding going on. | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
I am sure you did meet people who changed their mind, but there will | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
be very many people watching this programme who voted No, and might | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
want to say to you, look, we weren't misled or gold or conned in some | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
way. We have had a two-year debate. We have had a 500 odd page white | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
paper from the Scottish Government, telling us your prospectus for | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
independence, and we decided we did not want it. The danger for you is, | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
you might start looking as if you are doing another variant of saying | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
to people in Scotland, you were too stupid and to scared to vote yes. No | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
not in the slightest. I don't know how many interviews I have done | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
since Thursday night on Friday morning, and I have accepted | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
unreservedly that we did not win the referendum on Thursday. I think we | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
did fantastically well, we got 45% of the public to vote for | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
independence, 1.6 million people, and at -- the only point I'm making | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
to you is that some people were going to vote for independence but | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
decided that the opposite is more powers given by the three UK leaders | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
were more a more attractive proposition, and voted No as a | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
consequence, and therefore they are entitled to be taken seriously by | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
those three UK leaders and have what they voted for delivered, and that | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
is what we will hold them to account for. | :43:12. | :43:13. | |
Would you agree that whatever happens in the next few weeks, the | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
Scottish National Party needs to have a long think about what kind of | :43:17. | :43:24. | |
party it wants to be? For the last ten, 15 or 20 years, every time | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
there is debate on any subject in Scotland, the SNP says, yes, but of | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
course, if we had independence, we would do X, Y and Z. That is not an | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
option that is available any more, so what does the SNP become? Do you | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
become a gradualist party, sort of like Plaid Cymru? Is that the idea? | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
I wouldn't accept your characterisation of the SNP, because | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
we have been in government for seven and a half years, and have delivered | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
a whole range of different policy commitments to tackle inequality, to | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
create jobs in Scotland, to create better prospects for individuals, to | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
deliver free education... I'm not denying that, just saying that the | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
SNP has to be fundamentally different now, doesn't it? | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
I did think so, because what we have done is actually rolled our sleeves | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
up, worked very hard as a government to tackle issues that matter to the | :44:18. | :44:19. | |
people of Scotland in their everyday lives, and we will return -- we were | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
returned in 2011 and decisively to continue their job. | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
Yes, but the one absolutely distinctive policy of the SNP is now | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
off the agenda for a generation, so surely, you have do start to rethink | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
what kind of party you wants to be? Well, there are undoubtedly will be | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
a tactical debate within the Scottish National Party about how we | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
advance our agenda, but my answer to your question is that there is no | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
way the SNP will ever be a party that does not believe in and support | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
and argue for Scottish independence. You will never change my mind on | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
that. That is my deeply held view. But the problem is you can't do it | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
on a day-to-day basis as you have been doing, because people will be | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
fed up with it. People will turn round and say, we are fed up to our | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
back teeth with this stuff. We just had a vote on independence and we | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
rejected it. Please can we talk about something else give macro that | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
is why I completely reject your characterisation of what we are | :45:21. | :45:21. | |
about. Let's take welfare, for example. The | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
UK Government is changing welfare arrangements in the UK, and I could | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
say in all of that, OK, that is a UK responsibility, I can't do anything | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
about it until we get independence. But that is not what we are saying. | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
We have put ?23 million into tackling the issues of welfare | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
reform as they attacked council tax benefit, money to tackle the bedroom | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
tax, and so on. We're not sitting and twiddling our thumbs and waiting | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
for independence, but tackling issues that matter to people in | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
Scotland. That is why I reject your characterisation of the SNP in that | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
fashion. Nicola Sturgeon - next leader? | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
Well, I certainly hope so. I am encouraging her to do so, and I will | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
be an enthusiastic and energetic supporter of Nicola's. I look | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
forward to her taking a campaign through the party to become our next | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
leader, and then to be nominated to be First Minister. Nothing will give | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
me more satisfaction than to see under the glass ceiling in Scotland | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
shattered when Nicola Sturgeon, as I hope she will be, successfully is | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
elected as First Minister in Scotland. | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
Did you consider may be going in for it, or did you decide you weren't | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
really a glutton for punishment to that extent? | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
Several weeks ago, I was asked the question by a journalist in | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
Scotland, and he very fairly reported my reaction, saying, Mr | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
Swinney did not quite close the door, he slammed it shut and then | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
nailed it shot for absolute security and definition that it would not | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
happen. There is no way I would contemplate going back into the | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
party leadership. I had my chance, and enjoyed it. I would not be going | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
back in there, and I will be a totally enthusiastic supporter. | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
If I were Nicola Sturgeon watching this, I would think, given what he | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
has just said, I'm not sure I want to do this? | :47:08. | :47:09. | |
I'm quite sure she knows where she would be letting herself in for, but | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
she will have many many people giving her enthusiastic support to | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
take forward what I am certain will be excellent leadership. | :47:18. | :47:19. | |
John Swinney, we will have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank | :47:20. | :47:21. | |
you. In a statement early on Friday | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
morning, the Prime Minister said he was "delighted" at the outcome | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
of the referendum, but acknowledged that a significant number of Scots | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
had expressed dissatisfaction with Mr Cameron said he was committed to | :47:29. | :47:30. | |
delivering additional devolution, not just to Scotland | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
but to the rest of the UK. Well, to talk about how difficult | :47:35. | :47:36. | |
that task will be, I'm joined now by our Westminster | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
correspondent David Porter, who's David, you get about a bit, don't | :47:40. | :47:56. | |
you? Is this reconcilable? We have had Alistair Darling this morning | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
and Ed Miliband this morning saying, look, devolution for England and | :48:02. | :48:03. | |
devolution for Scotland are separate issues. We have pledged to the | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
people of Scotland that we will do it, and be in Sirius trouble if we | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
don't. Yet we have David Cameron saying, we can't do devolution for | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
Scotland unless we addressing this matters. How do you reconcile that? | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
It will be a tough one and a very thorny question to solve. If they | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
are going to get some kind of deal on this, they will have to be a | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
compromise. David Cameron has said he wants more devolution to | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
Scotland, but it has to be linked with the English question. Ed | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
Miliband says he wants more devolution for Scotland, but it | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
should not be linked with the English question. That needs a | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
constitutional convention. I think what we're now seeing is, following | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
the event on Thursday night, the speeches on Friday morning, and a | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
huge sigh of relief from the Unionist parties that Scotland did | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
not decide to vote for independence, they are now wrestling with some | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
very difficult problems, not just be constitutional once, but also | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
internal party management problems. Add to that that we are in the | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
run-up to a general election, and it just proves how difficult this whole | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
question of UK wide constitutional reform is going to be. They will not | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
be quick or easy. Thank you very much for that. | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
Over recent days, the former Prime Minister Gordon | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
Brown has been a key figure in trying to convince the public that | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
In a speech in his constituency yesterday, Mr Brown said that | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
processes were already under way at parliament and in | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
the civil service to bring forward legislation by the end of January. | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
A little earlier I spoke to Douglas Alexander, shadow Foreign Secretary, | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
And to ensure that there is proper scrutiny by the rest of the world, | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
so everybody knows that this deadline will be adhered to. I have | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
called on the commission of the Speaker of the House of Commons, | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
which will take place on the first week back in Westminster, on | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
Thursday, October 16, and in the debate, I will want to ensure that | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
the instructions to deliver have become a plan to deliver and not | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
just a timetable to deliver, but a certainty that we will deliver. | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
A short while ago I spoke to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
Douglas Alexander, who was in our Edinburgh studio. | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
I put it to him that every area that voted yes in the referendum was | :50:21. | :50:22. | |
a traditional heartland of Scottish Labour - and asked him whether that | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
meant his party was in crisis here. I would not accept that. People | :50:25. | :50:33. | |
moved and shifted from past party allegiances during this result. That | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
is why areas like Murray and the Western Isles and Perth and Kinross | :50:39. | :50:46. | |
recorded significant nor majorities. But if you are asking me if we have | :50:47. | :50:55. | |
work to do to offer at the Scottish people then absolutely. We spent two | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
years towards making this decision. The challenge for all of us is to | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
challenge the same kind of energy that was unleashed by this campaign | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
to tackle poverty and building up our services. There will be plenty | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
of opportunities for post match analysis but it is clear Scottish | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
Labour was central to a campaign which recorded a decisive ten point | :51:26. | :51:33. | |
difference between the two parties like a significant turnout of 85% | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
and the resignation of the First Minister. From the Labour point of | :51:38. | :51:48. | |
view every area that voted yes is a traditional Labour heartland. Labour | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
has been incapable of developing a narrative to do with equality, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
poverty and deprivation which breaks away from the terms on which it is | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
claimed by the Scottish Nationalists. You have not convinced | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
you're on people that the Nationalist way of looking at this | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
is wrong. Offered the offered the 640 page white paper which had one | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
policy for redistribution. This is approximately true but why did the | :52:25. | :52:34. | |
vote yes in some parts? You are not letting me and the question. Whether | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
it is the fact they have put money to the richest, whether the fact | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
they have taken money out while in office, they are resisting the top | :52:44. | :52:51. | |
rate of 50p and an increase for the big energy companies. There will | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
continue to be big differences between the SNP and Labour, I | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
welcome that contest. There was a prior question which had to be | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
resolved, are we in or out of the UK, that has now been decisively | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
spoken for by the people of Scotland. That is to stay within the | :53:12. | :53:19. | |
UK. If what you have just said has any credibility, why have all been | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
traditional heartlands of Labour support in Scotland trooped into the | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
polling booths to vote yes to the prospectus route across by the SNP? | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
I represent the community of Renfrewshire where we recorded a | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
clear mandate for Scotland staying within the United Kingdom, as we did | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
in Hall sweeps of the country which you are not talking about today. | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
Fife for example, a decisive majority in favour of staying within | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
the UK. It was the final vote which delivered Scotland's place in the | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
UK. Of course I accept the dark challenges which Scotland faces | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
along with old people" partly responding to this. The fact is that | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
2 million Scots on Thursday made clear our view that the way to | :54:17. | :54:26. | |
advance is to stay within the UK. Do you think he meant an organisation | :54:27. | :54:34. | |
should be set up or what? For the last two years we have had the most | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
extraordinary civic engagement but it has not created a single job or | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
lifted a single child out of poverty. If we were to challenge the | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
same energy that was boot into the constitutional question I think we | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
could serve Scotland more effectively. To build the community | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
you get people a common task. By doing what? To improve the will and | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
well-being of the people of Scotland. You are talking about | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
setting up an organisation? If the focus can shift from trying to end | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
Britain to trying to end poverty. There has to be a reappraisal from | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
the people on the other side of the argument who argued for many years | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
that Scotland actually wanted independence. They must now | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
reconcile the fact that we want demolition to work. It is by doing | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
that we can empower communities and tackle poverty. If I was the SNP I | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
would say this sounds very grand but what you are asking us to do is join | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
with you in diffusing nationalism on your traditional support in areas | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
like Glasgow while these are in fact the new people supporting us so, | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
thank you, but no. We have seen the settled will of the SNP for decades | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
long wanting a separate sovereign state being defeated by the | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
sovereign will of the Scottish people. A clear mandate for Scotland | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
to stay within the UK. I accept that there is a painful and difficult | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
reckoning but the truth is we can now build a common cause with in | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
Scotland as to what we are trying to do. To move our nation forward with | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
a process of democratic reform but also social and economic reform as | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
well. Given that there were points about tackling unemployment and | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
improving the health service I think we can now come together and try to | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
make those improvements happen. You are about to be going to church to | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
be reconciled with John Swinney. Thank you very much. Thank you. | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
Our guests today are David Clegg, who's Political Editor at the | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
Daily Record, and the journalist and economic | :57:09. | :57:09. | |
commentator, George Kerevan. Is that for old times sake that you | :57:10. | :57:20. | |
have the badge on? I met yes campaigners who had taken the | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
posters down on Friday and started putting them back up on Saturday. | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
Because actually we won. We are getting home rule that we have | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
argued for for 100 years. That means we can do all the things we want in | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
terms of social justice. It looks also like England will get home | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
rule. If we look at Scotland going towards social democracy which is | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
what we all want and if England goes the way it once which is more | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
towards Nigel Farage, tell me be will be together in ten years, I do | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
not think so. Would you mind after the programme fawning the SNP and | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
telling them what you have said because that does not appear to be | :58:05. | :58:16. | |
there idea. Now, the promises made by the Westminster leaders are going | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
to have to be delivered or else there will be anger. The SNP are | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
right when they say the anger will spill over to people who voted in | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
the referendum. The best guarantor of these powers is the prospect of | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
another referendum which all the Unionist parties will be determined | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
to avoid. It was very conclusive, the turnout was fantastically high | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
and the result was clear. Independence is not something the | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
Scottish public want but they do want more powers in Edinburgh. Alex | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
Salmond, one of the major figures in Scottish politics, he has earned the | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
right to decide when he weaves as first minister but I wonder if it | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
was in the interests of the SNP to design on Friday. Cause they want to | :59:09. | :59:18. | |
frame things as they got 40 5%. As soon as he stepped down it became | :59:19. | :59:30. | |
the Nationalists lost. The thing I got excited about when I read the | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
Daily Mail quote about the 2016 Holyrood election saying the SNP was | :59:36. | :59:45. | |
on course to win a third victory. To secure that electoral victory we | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
needed to change the readership. I am looking forward to having all | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
three political parties in Scotland led by women and I think that will | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
lead to the SNP strength. Alec has been around for 23 years more or | :00:02. | :00:09. | |
less. What you think of the timing of this? I thought he would leave in | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
November at the party conference, I thought he might take a week or two. | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
One of the reasons is that there are a lot of disappointed independence | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
supporters at the time and it sort of keep it up on the sorrow that the | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
First Minister was leaving. I Cannes and this morning there is chat among | :00:33. | :00:40. | |
SNP members for their quest urgent, Colin Fox and Patrick Hardy sweeping | :00:41. | :00:49. | |
the general election next May. I think that is far-fetched. There is | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
no doubt the Labour Party will have some problems in the West of | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
Scotland are been areas. Clearly was the largest yet bought coalesces | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
almost exactly with weird labour has previously been strongest. They will | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
need to address that. One way is to get the powers sorted out in the | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
long-term. Douglas Alexander was arguing with me in which areas did | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
what but it does not go away, does it? The precedence is set for an | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
all-party alliance in Canada. In Canada they realised the | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
difficulties of getting the mass of the population to vote for the | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
national election, the National party. I find that in Scotland in | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
2010 when I stood as an SNP candidate. If we could follow the | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
cubic example and create a block of pro-democracy and pro-independence | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
parties in Scotland, that might solve the problem. It proves the | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
debate is moving forward, the momentum and impetus is still with | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
the yes side. I'd much wrote do not go away. They will be with you to | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
any couple of minutes. Let's cross for the news now with Andrew Kerr. | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
Good afternoon. As the fall-out from the referendum | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
continues, the First Minister says the three pro-union parties tricked | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
voters into opting for "no".Alex Salmond claimed they were reneging | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
on the pledge they made on new powers in the days before the poll. | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
He said No voters would feel "misled and tricked". | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
On the Andrew Marr Show, the Labour leader Ed Miliband said | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
the extra powers which he pledged, along with David Cameron and | :02:44. | :02:44. | |
Nick Clegg, will go ahead. A service of reconciliation | :02:45. | :02:53. | |
following the referendum is being Moderator of the Church of Scotland | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
is leading worship. He's expected to ask Scots to put | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
their differences aside and work together to redefine | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
the country's place within the UK. Party representatives will light | :03:03. | :03:04. | |
a candle, symbolising commitment. Now let's take a look | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
at the weather with Gillian. If in. A lovely afternoon across | :03:12. | :03:21. | |
most of the country, as high-pressure establishes itself | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
across the UK. Crisp sunshine, the best of it across central and | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
western Scotland. More cloud across the North. For the Northern Isles, | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
temperatures on the cool side, just 12 Celsius, but up to 17 or 18 in | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
the best of the sunshine in the south-west. | :03:38. | :03:38. | |
There's been much discussion over the last few days | :03:39. | :03:46. | |
about the timetable for greater powers at the Scottish Parliament. | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
There's continuing disagreement over the nature of further devolution | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
and whether legislation will be in place by next year. | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
But earlier today, Alistair Darling told the BBC the vow made | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
The agreement reached by the three bodies, as far as I'm concerned, is | :03:57. | :04:09. | |
non-negotiable. It was promised, it's got to be delivered, and anyone | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
who welshes on that will pay a very heavy price for years to come. It is | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
simply non-negotiable. I believe it will be delivered. The process is | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
already underway. By the end of next January, you will have a bill ready | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
to go and become an act of Parliament. Of course, there is a | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
separate issue about what further constitutional change comes to the | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
UK, but to be very clear about this, you cannot hold up or delay in any | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
way at all what was promised. The three leaders gave an absolute | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
commitment, and I am confident they will deliver on it. | :04:44. | :04:44. | |
Joining us from Edinburgh, Professor Charlie Jeffery, | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
director of a research programme on Devolution Constitutional Change, | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
There is an emerging and rather fascinating clash of right against | :04:49. | :05:02. | |
right here, isn't there? Labour are absolutely right to say, a vow was | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
made and that has to be kept, irrespective of what happens in the | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
broader issue of constitutional change for the rest of the UK. But | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
on the other hand, the Conservatives are right to say, well, you can't | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
expect the people of England to axe at a shed load more power is going | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
to Scotland unless the West Lothian question is addressed? | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
Indeed, Gordon. I think at the moment, we are in something like a | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
constitutional change reaction, which was prompted by those polls | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
before the referendum which pushed the No side into firming up this | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
timetable for additional powers. That in itself prompted some | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
discontent in England, especially on the Conservative backbenches, which | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
made Prime Minister Cameron's announcement on English votes for | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
English laws in the House of Commons something like a necessity to | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
maintain the unity of the Conservative Party. Wales was also | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
showing some discontent over that commitment on the Barnett Formula. | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
Wales feels underfunded. So what we see now is a chain reaction, which I | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
think is inherently unstable, and I think it is beginning to pit the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
nations of the UK against each other, but also to pit the parties | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
against each other in different ways. That Better Together unity is | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
gone, very, very quickly. Yes, but the problem is surely that | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
if this just turns into a political squabble tween Labour and the | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
Conservatives ahead of the next general election, there could be | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
quite dire consequences here. Obviously, we can't have another | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
referendum, but you have a lot of people genuinely feeling, hang on, | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
we voted No, and we really have, as Alex Salmond suggested, been conned. | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Well, we just had Alistair Darling saying that the timetable is | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
non-negotiable, and I believe him entirely in his commitment to that, | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
but I do think there are tremendous challenges for delivering that | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
timetable. There is a very, very small window for public consultation | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
set out in that timetable. There is very little mention of the Scottish | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Parliament's own rights to begin salted on UK legislation, affecting | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
the Scottish Parliament. We would expect the parliament to set up a | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
committee to take evidence, to be due to report. There is absolutely | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
nothing there. The technical details around welfare devolution are | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
immense. Just ask Iain Duncan Smith about the difficulties in changing | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
arrangements around welfare benefits. All of these things are | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
really tremendous pressures on that non-negotiable timetable. | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
Yes, and added to that long list of problems, the parties don't agree, | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
do they? Even on the more powers for Scotland bit. It is actually the | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
Tories who have got a radical devolution review, for example, on | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
income tax, and Labour is proposing something much, much more modest, | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
and they are going to do so is something them. | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
What we have seen is precisely that. The Liberal Democrats and | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Conservatives have by some way the most ambitious proposals on tax | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
devolution, and labour, by some way, have the least ambitious. And that | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
is another dimensional of this constitutional challenge that we | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
have at the moment, and that is that the Labour Party, in its Westminster | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
and in its Holyrood incarnations, is this United. The Westminster level | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
party is deeply sceptical about further tax devolution. The Holyrood | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
party is not, and we will have to see which one wins out. | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Is there a danger -- dangerous complacency here? The leader of the | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
Labour Party might be tempted to think, what is coming next? It is a | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
general election. We always do well in general elections in Scotland, | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
the SNP always do badly. So even if these problems you have just | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
described are still there, we don't really need to worry that much? | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Well, that would probably be an ill-advised way of thinking about | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the matter. If there is slippage from this non-negotiable timetable, | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
or if what emerges from it is a rather modest form of additional | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
devolution, not that maximum home rule that was just talked about, | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
then we suspect the Labour Party above all of the others will be the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
one that is punished at the UK general election in Scotland. | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
Thank you very much. We're joined again by our guests, | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
David Clegg and George Kerevan. Let's talk a little bit about what | :09:23. | :09:32. | |
has been promised by Gordon Brown. A lot of people, particularly on the | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
Yes side, are saying this morning, hang on, this guy is a Labour | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
backbencher. Why is he suddenly Mr Scotland? What is he doing going | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
around signing things with David Cameron? I think there is an element | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
of truth in that, in that he doesn't have any power specifically to | :09:53. | :09:54. | |
deliver any of these things, but what he has been doing is Carl | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
Allingham become known as the Val now, after the front-page Reid had | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
on the daily record, and Gordon Brown was instrumental in bringing | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
together that platform. -- Vo. But it will be down to the parties to | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
deliver it, is the central point. But deliver what? Let me make an | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
analogy, if I could. When David Cameron said I am delivering more | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
powers to Scotland, but of course, I want English votes for English MPs, | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Labour immediately thought, hang on, this is a trap. Even if we have a | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
Labour government, we might not control what happens in England. If | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
you look at what Gordon Brown said, he is effectively saying, I want a | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
happy clap the coalition with the Scottish Government and the Scottish | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
National Party in order to convince working-class people in the West of | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Scotland that they have nothing to do with nationalism. | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
Yes, the biggest loser, I think history will show, on Thursday, with | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
the Labour Party. They have been snookered, and Gordon Brown has been | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
wound up by the media to offer all this and to try and drag in the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
working-class into staying in the No camp. He did not succeed. He | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
galvanised the middle class, yes. He now seems to want to get the SNP to | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
help them do that. Yes will stop if I was Gordon, I would have woken up | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
today wishing that I had gone with Wendy Alexander's proposal to have | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
the referendum six years ago, because he would still be prime Mr. | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
But he did not do that, because he always bottles it. The problem now | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
is, Labour has lost its heartland in Scotland, now we have David Cameron, | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
who is really serious about pushing this English agenda. It sees off | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
UKIP, and his right wing, because he is cloaking himself in English | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
nationalism. And it does away with Labour, the only UK wide National | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
party. The Tories are corralled in England. Labour is the only | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
significant political party across the whole UK. If Labour can be | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
broken, Cameron is safe and the Tories are safe in England, but the | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
downside of that for them is that of course, that could break up the | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
United Kingdom for sure. Is there not an issue for labour that, in | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
Scotland, it always seems to be arguing within the framework of the | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
Nationalists are happy with? They are still doing it. It is now, more | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
powers for the Scottish parliament. They seem incapable of managing to | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
do get out of that, if you like, and develop a story about social | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
solidarity across the UK, and say, of course we were more powers for | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
the Scottish parliament, but it is not the most important thing. We are | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
not petty nationalist like the SNP are. Why can't they do that? I'm not | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
sure if I accept your analysis about they haven't done that. If they | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
have, it hasn't worked! They may be social solidarity argument | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
throughout the referendum campaign, with varying levels of success. The | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
problem is, if there is an appetite for more devolution, it would be | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
foolish not to be on that territory. So they have come to the conclusion | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
that more devolution is what Scotland wants and good for | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
Scotland, so they are attempting to deliver it. That is a very, very | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
different concept to saying you want an independent Scotland. There is a | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
vast difference, so to suggest that because they are calling for more | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
powers, that is in some way capitulating to Scottish naturalism, | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
they don't accept that. I wonder... We are getting terribly excited | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
about this. The game is still on. All this talk among the SNP about | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
getting together the common folks, and Bruce Croall foot, he responded | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
to that by saying, can we not just shut up for a few days? -- Bruce | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Crawford. Wouldn't that be sensible? Actually, no. What was great and | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
fascinating as an exercise in democracy about the campaign was, it | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
came from the bottom up, and it is not the leaderships of any of the | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
parties that can control this. The people want to move on. This is | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
about power, not devolution. Why Glasgow voted for independence, they | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
want power. There is not time. You have to come back in future. Thank | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
you. I'll be back | :14:18. | :14:17. | |
at the same time next week. | :14:18. | :14:22. |