14/09/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


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It is threatening the life of a second British hostage. David


Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil. President Obama


said the US were shoulder to shoulder in grief. Alex Salmond says


Scotland stands on the cusp of history as he predicts a historic


and substantial victory on Thursday's referendum. The latest


poll shows the two sides neck and neck. I will ask Tommy Sheridan


about his vision for an independent Scotland. After last week's


interventions by Gordon Brown and other leaders, I will ask George


Galloway if it is enough. Coming up on


Sunday Politics Scotland: The Scottish aid worker,


David Haines, has been killed by extremists from Islamic State,


and they've threatened the life Late last night, as most folk were


preparing for bed, news broke that Islamic State extremists had carried


out their threat to murder the The group released a video, similar


to the ones in which two American journalists were decapitated,


showing a masked man apparently beheading Mr Haines who was taken


captive in Syria last year. The terrorist,


who has a southern British accent, also threatened the life


of a second hostage from the UK. Mr Haines is


the third Westerner to be killed His family have paid tribute to


his humanitarian work; they say he David Cameron described the murder


as an act of pure evil, and said his heart went out to Mr Haines?


family, who had shown extraordinary Mr Cameron went on to say,


"We will do everything in our power to hunt down these murderers


and ensure they face justice, Mr Haines was born in England


and brought up in Scotland. Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond


condemned the killing on the Marr Well, it's an act of unspeakable


barbarism that we have seen. Obviously our condolences go to the


family members of David Haynes who have borne this with such fortitude


in recent months -- David Alex Salmond was also asked


whether he supported military action Haines there is no reason to believe


whatsoever that China or Russia or any country will see their will to


deal with this barbarism. There is a will for effective, international,


legal action but it must come in that fashion, and I would urge that


to be a consideration to develop a collective response to what is a


threat to humanity. Our security correspondent


Gordon Corera joins me now Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra


emergency meeting is meeting yet again. It meets a lot these days. I


would suggest that the options facing this committee and Mr Cameron


are pretty limited. That's right. I think they are extremely limited.


They have been all along in these hostage situations. We know, for


instance, that British government policy is not to pay ransom is to


kidnappers. Other Europeans states are thought to have done so to get


hostages released, and also not to make substantive policy concessions


to the groups, so while there might be contact, there won't be a lot of


options left. We know the US in the past has looked at rescue missions


and in July on operation to free the hostages, landing at the oil


facility in Syria but finding no one there. If you look at the options,


they are not great. That is the difficult situation which Cobra will


have been discussing the last hour. Does this make it more likely,


because it might have the direction the government was going in any way,


that we join with the Americans in perhaps the regional allies in air


strikes against Islamic State, not just in Iraq, but also in Syria. We


heard from President Obama outlining his strategy against Islamic State


last week when he talked about building a coalition, about


authorising air strikes. And training troops. We are still


waiting to hear what exact role the UK will play in that. We know it


will play a role because it has been arming the fishmonger forces but the


question is, will it actually conduct military strikes in Iraq --


arming the passion are there. We have not got a clear answer from


government and that is something where they are ours to discuss what


was around the table. It's possible we might learn some more today as a


result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting


to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a


result of one incident, however terrible it is. Whether it hardens


their reserve -- resolved to play more active role in the coalition,


that's possible, but we have to wait see to get the detail. -- wait and


see. What the whole country would like to see would be British and


American special forces going in and getting these guys. I think that


would unite the nation. But that is very difficult, isn't it? It is. As


you saw with a rescue mission a few months ago, the problem is getting


actionable intelligence on the ground at a particular moment. The


theory is that the group of kidnappers are moving the hostages


may be even every or few days, so you need intelligence and quickly


and then you need to be able to get the team onto the ground into that


time frame. That is clearly a possibility and something they will


be looking at, but it certainly challenging, particularly when you


have a group like this operating within its own state, effectively,


and knowing that other people are looking very hard for it and doing


everything they can to hide. Gordon, thank you very much.


Clegg dropped everything and headed to Scotland when a poll last Sunday


gave the YES vote its first ever lead in this prolonged referendum


If their reaction looked like panic, that's because it was.


Until last weekend, though the polls had been narrowing,


the consensus was still that NO would carry the day.


The new consensus is that it's too close to call.


If we look back at the beginning of the year, public opinion in Scotland


was fairly settled. The no campaign had a commanding lead across the


opinion polls, excluding the undecided voters. At one point, at


the end of last year, an average of 63% backed the no campaign and only


37% supported a yes vote. As we move into 2014 and up to this week, you


can see a clear trend emerging as the lead for the no campaign gets


narrower and narrower and the average of the most recent polls has


the contest hanging in the balance. There was a poll a week ago that put


the Yes campaign in the lead for the first time, 51% against 49%, but


that lead was not reflected in the other polls last week. For polls


were published last night, one by Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign


-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one


percentage point different. ICM have the yes campaign back in the lead at


54% and the no campaign at 46%, but their sample size was 705 Scottish


adults, smaller than usual. Another suggests that the contest remains on


a knife edge with 49.4% against 50.6%. When fed into the poll of


polls the figures average out with yes at 49% and polls -- no at 51%.


But some people think 18% are undecided, and it is how they vote


gets -- when they get to the polling booths that could make all the


difference. campaigner and Respect Party MP,


George Galloway. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big


business, big oil, big banks, the Tories, the Orange order, all


against Scottish independence. You sure you are on right side? Yes,


because the interests of working people are in staying together. This


is a troubled moment in a marriage, a very long marriage, in which some


good things and bad things have been achieved together. And there is no


doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the


minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working


people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I


have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter affair


and it's particularly bad for the children will stop that's why I am


here. You talk about working people, and particularly Scottish working


people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want


to create cannot now be done in a UK context. Why should they not have a


shot of going it alone? Because the opposite will happen. Separation


will cause a race to the bottom in taxation. Alex Salmond has already


announced he will cut the taxes on companies, corporation tax, down to


3% hello whatever it is in the rest of these islands. And business will


only be attracted to come here, country of 5 million people on if


there is low regulation, low public expenditure, low levels of taxation


for them will stop you cannot have Scandinavian social democracy on


Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the


rest of the UK, they will race Alex Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it


by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people


cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people


on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's


take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as


anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and


reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited


plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare


state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just


explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a


minute. He will be along in May. The polls indicate... They say he is


only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the


next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think


that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I


think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the


Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super


Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of


people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot


base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win


the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten


on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the


faces of the government side not only that they were headed for


defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the


bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be


a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish


economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that


will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland


decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and


austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You


mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and


Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to


be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of


them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --


telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear


radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They


would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling


with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the


Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a


government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons


and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again


now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the


consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you


opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in


their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many


people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been


drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is


interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and


this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up


a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy


funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,


assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side


squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say


about that, whatever the result. This is very much a Scottish Labour


project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is


potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal


responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job


that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this


island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me


to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they


are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this


referendum is lost by your side, it will be because traditional


working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of


Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?


Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes


is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European


Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be


voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy


of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as


unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland, it


will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to


help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if


it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain


are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only


the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why


shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of


expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,


carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are


repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it


change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of


Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to


put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife


would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential


consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that


is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would


change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of


view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are


being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are


already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could


not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers


for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British


state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond


idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again


because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be


narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of


unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're


still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let


Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly


win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking


about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably


not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what


about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are


right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish


Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I


told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime


against young people in England. It was risking everything. We are led


by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We


need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.


Thank you. It's been one of the longest and


hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing


the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together


the key moments of the campaign. It is the other thing drawing people


to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is


the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,


famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel


dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the


elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became


reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year


later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in


this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White


Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have


ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent


country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,


Labour and the Lib Dems under the leadership of Alistair Darling. Then


the Scottish people were bombarded with two years of photo


opportunities and a lot of campaigning. For the no campaign,


Jim Murphy went on tour but took a break when he was egged and his


events were often hijacked by yes campaigners who were accused of


being intimidating. In turn, they accused the no campaign of using


scare tactics. Things heated up when the TV dinner -- during the TV


debate. Fever pitch was reached one week ago when one poll suggested the


yes campaign was in the lead for the first time. The three main


Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to head north. I think people can feel


it is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years


later you can make another decision if you are fed up with the Tories,


give them a kick... This is totally different. And Labour shelved not


quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex Salmond took a helicopter instead.


This is about the formation of the NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign


is that changes to the NHS in Linden -- in England would lead to


privatisation in Scotland. Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound


was trashed by big names. There were other big question is, what would


happen to military hardware like Trident based on the Clyde? Would an


independent Scotland be able to join the EU? And how much oil was left


underneath the North Sea? This panel is about famous Scots, we


have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry, Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon


Brown. These are big changes we are Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon


proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to


stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and


centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more


devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the


parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster


some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister


if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a


good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'


views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I


am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from


Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and


I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly


inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it


would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30


hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more


about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.


And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor


of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.


An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership


of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations - is


that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's


prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is


not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two


years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting


for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes


on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom


because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free


prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not


in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the


price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry


about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing


stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power


generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,


natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class


universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the


world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the


revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but


it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand


still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections


of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to


keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and


you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.


That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the


most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic


stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee


employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking


about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to


continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the


minimum survival of the oil is 40 years. Please get your viewers to go


onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The


West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done


because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil


because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident


and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn


his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions


and change are not just single event. What will happen here on


Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being


patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and


abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice.


What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you


against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes


campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we


are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a


scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay


on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be


lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave


the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your


way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of


business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be


clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,


because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England


because in their hearts, the want to see the people having the


bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of


London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big


business. When we are independent and investing in social housing, the


people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will


rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one


country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than


the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You


think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally


and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the


world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be


encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as


well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three


millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed


Miliband wins the next election, he said he would stick to the story


spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to


run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great


socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist


party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more


votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology


question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years


time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you


are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and


got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won


the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the


clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the


close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --


service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and


people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a


constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the


Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black


and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a


crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are


absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is


finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance


of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no


vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to


rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,


because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political


party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite


is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your


colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal


of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to


be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he


engineered your downfall, but I'm still here and his newspaper has


closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other


millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on


Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this


vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather


not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who


is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the


BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a


stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going


to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try


and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you


have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you


personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,


generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look


at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil


not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see


it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.


Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 60/40.


Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the


working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up


being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into


tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,


and they will use You're watching Sunday Politics. We


say goodbye to viewers and Scotland. Good morning and welcome to


Sunday Politics Scotland. The Scottish Aid worker, David


Haines, has been executed by Islamic State, and the group has


threatened the life Both campaigns hit the streets


in search We'll be talking to the


First Minister and to Lord Reid Professor John Curtice will give


his analysis Islamic State extremists have


carried out their threat to kill Late last night, a video was


released, appearing to show a Mr Haines, who was 44 years old


grew up in Perth. He is


the third Westerner to be killed Two American journalists


have also been murdered. A man with a great passion for


helping others, that is how colleagues describe David Janes


pictured here in Croatia in 2003, he helped refugees moved back to their


homes and rebuild their lives. -- David Haines. Many people do not


know who to turn to. In doing this, our office goes across to Belgrade


and meets the people so they can gain trust from us. David was


working with a French charity when he was kidnapped in Syria 19 months


ago. Holding a meeting of COBRA el layer, David Cameron condemned the


attack describing it as an act of pure evil. The foreign office says


it is no reason to doubt the man shown is David Haines in the video.


We are not showing any moving pictures from that film, but we are


going to show a single image and a message from David's killer. You


might find this distressing. This British man has to pay the price.


David, whose parents live on air, went to Perth Academy. He has two


children. Just 24 hours ago, his family appealed to the outdoors.


Today they say he will be mist terribly and forever loved. --


captors. Our guests of the day are the


First Minister, Alex Salmond, and the former Labour cabinet


minister, Lord Reid. We'll be asking them for


their reaction in a few moments. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail,


well, both sides have won, Alistair Darling says we should


"be in no doubt" that Scotland will reject independence -


and that that's based on Meanwhile Blair Jenkins,


chief executive of the Yes campaign says based on his canvass returns,


"I think we've got a Yes vote". We'll be trying to assess how


confident each side really is But first let's remind ourselves


of the campaign headlines this week in our referendum week in


Sixty Seconds. The Chancellor promised a timetable


for more personal Scotland on the day a new poll suggested the yes


campaign was ahead for the first time. The First Minister said it was


too little too late. Gordon Brown then suggested a timetable would


start on the 19th of September. David Cameron and Ed Miliband mist


Prime Minister 's questions to campaign in Scotland alongside Nick


Clegg. The First Minister described their day as teams Scotland against


team Westminster. Mark Carney said a currency union would be incompatible


with sovereignty. RBS will move their registered headquarters from


Edinburgh to London. Alex Salmond accuse the no side of coordinating


business scare stories. He urged voters to opt for independence.


Well, the First Minister, Alex Salmond,


First of all, the news of that killing of the Scottish aid worker,


You have had a meeting of your resilience committee. What has that


decided? Firstly, let's express our condolences and solidarity with the


family who have borne the difficulties of the last few months


with tremendous dignity against the uncertainty of the fate of David


Haines. Now we have seen this act of barbarism. There are a number of


matters within the Scottish government Jude restriction, firstly


there is the insurance of security and privacy for the family, a matter


which we take very seriously. Secondly, there are some


jurisdictional matter is that we need to deal with the Home Office,


that will be done with officers to investigate and pursue the


perpetrators of the crime. Thirdly and importantly there is the issue


of community dig each in within Scotland. -- cohesion. No part of


the Muslim community in Scotland is responsible for any part of this. If


there is any sign whatsoever of aggravating offences in Scotland, it


will be dealt with the full force of them all. We hold strong communities


in Scotland together. When you were speaking to Andrew Marr earlier on,


you seem to suggest that there might be a role for the United Nations and


coordinating action on a legal basis about Islamic State. What I was


unclear north was where using that there was a case for military action


here as long as it is approved by the United Nations? I am pointing


out two things. Firstly we will give continuing support to the foreign


office and their efforts in terms of their position and jeopardy of any


other hostage as we have done in the case of David Haines, tragically


unsuccessful, but at the nonetheless in a matter like this, they deserve


complete support and that is what we will do. Secondly, whatever strategy


is devised, we have said there has been an absence of policy from not


just the UK government but the United States in recent years,


therefore it should be done by collective action. I was also


pointing out that there was no suggestion, I cannot see any


suggestion that China or Russia or any other major state would want to


do anything other than respond to what is a challenge to humanity in


terms of the barbarism of what we are seeing going on in Iraq and


Syria at the moment. But that should be discussed collectively under the


rule of international law. Should you win the referendum and become


eventually First Minister of independent Scotland. The British


government has always taken a very strong line against negotiation in


cases like this or against paying ransom. With that also be your


policy? I think that is the correct policy. I don't think that any


democratic government can allow itself to have its policies


interviewed with by terrorist acts. The reasons for that are obvious. It


is also important to have a policy and strategy to be pursued. I think


that is vitally important which is why I am suggesting the root of


collective security would make common sense at the present moment,


given the recent history of the last few years. The lack of collective


security and international legality has caused so many problems which


will stay with us for generations to come. You have been saying this


morning that you expect to win the referendum. Is that based on a


feeling in your heart or based on actual figures that the yes campaign


have? No, it is based on the people around the communities, villages and


cities in Scotland. I think anyone who has been in these communities


over the last few days knows the movement has moved strongly towards


yes. We take nothing for granted. I still believe we are the underdogs


in this contest as we have been throughout. We are well aware of the


massive influence and power that can be deployed against the bus. We have


seen some of that lining up in the last week. -- against us. That


movement is against us and towards a yes vote. You have talked about


having a team Scotland. You mentioned earlier that perhaps


Johann Lamont would take part in it or Michael Carmichael. Which sounds


grand if you win the referendum. How will people like Johann Lamont and


Michael Carmichael supposed to negotiate a currency union? The


reason I mentioned them was because they had already said that was their


attitude. He said he would consider his duty to resign as Secretary of


State. I said it is the sort of person we want to have within team


Scotland. You cannot expect them to be negotiating policies they don't


agree with. The circumstances of a yes vote, we would have a verdict


from the sovereign will of the people of Scotland. On the


circumstances of what is in the White Paper, the proposal we have


put forward for the common currency. Everybody after the election and


after the referendum except the verdict of the people, that has been


run so many times in the past. I am certain in the case of JoAnn Lambert


and Alistair, whoever may disagree about this, they will not disagree


about the sovereign will of the people. -- Johann Lamont. They


haven't just to sign up with the will of the Scottish people in the


sense that they will have voted for independence, they have got to sign


up for your proposed currency union with the UK even though they have


been saying it is against the interests of Scotland. You are


expecting them to sign up to the whole package. If you trace back the


statements to Alistair, Alistair at one point was saying that the UK


should not declared against a currency union. We know Alistair


Darling said a currency union would be logical and desirable. Let's not


misty what was said and done and posture in a campaign for what


happens after the votes are counted and the results are in when everyone


will want to move together as quickly as possible to establish a


framework in which Scotland can get the best settlement possible. I


think the day after the referendum and following a yes vote, then I


think you will find a great deal of enthusiasm for putting past argument


is behind us and getting on with the job for Scotland. Talking about


posturing in a campaign to use your phrase, would it not be health and


-- helpful, if you withdrew your promise, / threat suggestion that an


independent Scotland would not take part of the UK's debts. That would


give you more credibility with the financial markets. Can I point out


that the legal position is that the debt remains with the UK government.


They accepted that the continuing United Kingdom as they put it would


have contractual liability for the debts. What we are offering to do is


to finance our probable that share of the debt. -- a appropriate. A


substantial proportion of the Treasury gilts, the debts that have


been building up, we would have to also have a proportion of the


assets. You say for example that... Uses Scotland will be welcomed into


the European Union. Should you not get the currency union and not take


on the debt, do you think the governments of the euro zone which


have gone through all the treasure and stress and diplomatic effort to


avoid and light default in Greece, the German government of Angela


Merkel with this obsession would welcome Scotland into the European


Union when the UK government is saying these people are refusing to


pay a share of their debt? You use the word default. Let's be accurate


about this. The default has been excepted by the UK government. Now


one from any perspective will expect the people of Scotland to take on


financing a fair share of the assets, the financial assets, held


by the Bank of England unless Leslie were entitled to our fair share of


the liability in terms of financing. Unless we were entitled to our share


of the assets. -- we want a position where we accept our responsibility,


a moral responsibility in my view, to take a share of the liabilities


and the financing of these debts which have been built up by George


Osborne and Alistair Darling. In turn we should have a share of the


assets. In that position the two things will go together. Now one


would look askance at that position. Thank you very much for joining us.


And listening to that was John Reid who joins us now from our Edinburgh


Studio. I wanted to get your thoughts on David Keynes. My


condolences are sent to the family and friends of David Haynes.


Terrorists do terrible things like this for two reasons, the first is


to terrify, frighten and code people. The second is to divide,


cause division within people. I hope our response will be resolution and


secondly to unite. That is the best response to the terrorists, to


defeat the aim. When I see Unite I mean to do what we have always done


in these situations at a UK level. We won support from all parties in


response to situations like this. Perhaps more importantly, to unite


across the division of the referendum here in Scotland because


whatever differences Alex Salmond and I have, and we have many, and


however robust weekly debate over the next few days, I think it would


be a signal back to those who wish to divide us if we resolved that


this issue would not become an issue in the referendum. That we would


become very careful when dealing with this and that we hereby send


that signal and solace to, I hope, the family, that the whole country


is united behind them and against the terrorists. One final point


about unity, I believe entirely with Alex Salmond that we recognise in


Scotland and throughout the UK that this is not a division between one


religion and the rest. The dividing line here is between terrorists and


others, between evil people and good people. The vast majority of Muslims


in this country and throughout the UK will be as horrified as anyone


else. Let no-one do the terrorist's work for them by dividing ourselves.


Let's move on to the referendum. If yes win, it is very close now, if we


can agree it is very close, it is only very close because a Lord of


Labour voters are going to vote yes. This is because of an assumption


that party leaders should dictate to people how they should vote. They


can convince and they simply have not convinced. Saudi, I am having a


problem heaving, especially if you entered up to me. There are 20%


perhaps more of SNP people who are against separation which is even


more amazing because that is the primary central core of the SNP


beliefs. More important than an argument against the polls is the


undisputed fact it looks very close. Because it is of salt -- because it


is so close and of such huge consequences a couple of things come


out. For heavens sake, do not use this as a protest vote. There are


1000 ways to protest. Gambling with the future of your country, children


and grandchildren is not one of them. The second is because of the


consequences, very simple. If you do not know, if you genuinely don't


know, thought no, don't risk the future of Europe country on the


basis of something upon which you are not entirely persuaded. But hang


on a minute, it was the Scottish Labour Party who went around for


years saying we are the people who will defend Scotland against those


Tories down in London. You can hardly be terribly surprised if the


want to defend themselves by voting against London. The central question


is not the movement in the polls, the central question is, what is the


choice that faces people? The choice in the next few days has become


clearer, the choice is whether we can be a rich diverse nation with


the pride in our history, culture and orders and our control,


geographic entity and historic entity, but be part of the bigger


state that brings financial opportunity, greater security and so


on, or on the other hand say those borders will be inviolable and we


will separate with old risk to pensions, currency, jobs, investment


and so on that are obvious. What is annoying Alex Salmond and I listen


to him tearfully, it is now becoming obvious that those dangers are real.


He has gone through a number of stages digging a hole for himself.


The first was to deny the risk existed. Everybody was wrong. The


second stage was to threaten retaliation so the Nationalists have


said if you see this there will be a day of reckoning but today he is


threatening the fault if they do not get there way. I did not say he was


threatening the fault. I said the German government had avoided a


default in Greece, Mr Salmond says it is not legally a default that he


is suggesting he might do. We will see at the rest of the world regard


it as the default if you say we will not be our day -- Shear off the


debts. If you send that signal to the world, on top of threatening


those who are giving employment, investment and jobs to this country


providing a law towards pensions, on top of the inherent risks of


separation itself years digging deeper into the hole. Your campaign,


there has been much said about the timetable of extra powers and


devolution. I am completely confused about what these extra powers are.


One example on the issue of income tax, the Conservative party is


considering devolving all powers over income tax. The Labour Party is


considering devolving a little bit more powers. What will this


accelerating timetable going to be accelerating? Your policy on the


Tories policy? The timetable with which we will agree on the specifics


of policies. So we have an excel at each and of something that actually


you do not agree on? We do agree there should be further income tax


powers. We do agree on the devolution of further income tax. I


want to know exactly what it is this accelerated timetable is going to


get me. I do not want to know you are going to agree something with


the Tories at a later date. If you let me explain. There will be a


substantial devolution of power over income tax and other taxes on top of


what has already been agreed in the Calman commission. There is common


agreement across the parties there should be a devolution of power over


well there should be a devolution of power over wealthier to get rid of


the dreaded bedroom tax. Why is this important? It is not just because of


this campaign. This was announced months ago. Not only does it make


the Scottish government more powerful but more responsible and


accountable. If you are spending money but do not have the


responsibility of raising money you are not a truly responsible


parliament. All that has changed is that we are not somehow in the last


week saying these are areas which will be devolved, we are setting a


timetable so that those agreed in general can set out the specific


ones. Before you can set out the rules of a club you have to decide


if there is going to be a club. Sorry to entered up. I know you and


Alex Salmond have been affecting to not you me when I entered up. Sorry


to have to leave it there. Thank you for joining us.


I'm joined now by Professor John Curtice, psephologist


and professor of politics from Strathclyde University.


It is looking very close at the moment. Undoubtably a tight race. We


should bear in mind we have only had one poll that unambiguously puts one


side ahead. At the moment we are getting rather more polls putting no


ahead than yes ahead which suggests the balance of probabilities are


that the no side are still ahead but not with a significantly. The other


thing that is really odd, you look at some of the polls and there has


been a huge shift from no to yes Auberon four weeks. Some other


polling companies which were showing yes being quite close are detecting


very little or no shift whatsoever. Yes. There has been a consistent


discrepancy between the opinion polls and now they have largely


converged. Virtually every single poster is now putting the yes side


up or very close to the all-time high. There has not been a big swing


and that is intriguing. One answer is that they were right all along or


another technical one that if there has been some movement then some of


the opinion polls which were rather more where exaggerating and those on


the high side were underestimating. Evidently have converged something


not short of 50/50 we have to accept we are in that kind of race. Is


there a possibility, presumably there will be more polls before the


day, aren't they are likely to be big shifts in the polls before the


actual vote? It is possible. In 1972 in the general election there was a


late swing which allowed Edward Heath to unexpectedly become prime


minister. What we do know now is that although the yes side have made


progress, there is no necessary momentum. In a sense, the last week


has probably been a draw. Now remain narrowly ahead which is where they


have been for quite a while. We do not know how many people are still


undecided. One poll had 17%, another 10%.


There are not many people who do not know what they are going to do.


Depending on how you answer the question, the either tell you what


their inclination is or the don't know. Turnout, both sides obviously


will be trying to mobilise their people. There has been a view that


the yes side are better organised. Does that make any difference unless


it is much closer than it is? We are now sufficiently close that if you


were in the Better Together campaign you would be worried that there is a


stronger side for the yes side. We are beginning to talk about the


figures being around 48, 40 94 yes. The ability to get the vote out on


the day cooped be crucial. 49 four yes. Yes voters are just that bit


more motivated. What is clear from the polls is that, the most


important group in the referendum, the undecided people, the average in


the opinion polls as being no. The yes side have to worry about if the


turnout does increase, those people go to the polls. That will not be an


advantage to them. Thank you very much. There will be questions later.


You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Stay with us to see and


hear the reaction from better together. Let's now go to the news.


There has been international condemnation following the murder


of David Haines, after the release of a video appearing to show the


The 44-year-old aid worker was seized in Syria in 2013.


He was being held by Islamic State militants, who have already killed


David Cameron described Mr Haines' murder as an act of "pure evil".


Alex Salmond said it was an "act of unspeakable barbarism".


On this programme, Alex Salmond spoke about the importance of


community cohesion, saying no part of Scotland's Muslim community was


responsible for atrocities that were committed.


It's the last weekend of campaigning


in the independence referendum, and both sides will be


Pro-independence supporters are trying to appeal to


the older population with a message from Winnie Ewing,


regarded by nationalists as a key figure in their movement.


Meanwhile, those in Better Together are appealing to the those who still


have to make up their minds before they vote on Thursday.


A number of new opinion polls have been published, suggesting


That's the news, now let's take a look at


A dry story for most of us today but mixed fortunes in terms of sunshine.


The best of it through the Northwest Highlands. The South West Breitling


as well. For eastern Scotland more in the way of cloud. -- brightening.


Sunshine in the north-west. Our next update is 6:50 p.m.. I will hand you


back to Gordon. We know what is coming up in the


Week Ahead. I'm joined by our guests Tom Gordon,


political editor at the Herald, and by Alex Massie, freelance


journalist and commentator. This is where I asked you where you


think this is going. And you say it is too close to call. It reminds me


of what was said about the film industry, no one knows. Both seem


genuinely convinced that the numbers are on their side. Canvass returns


for both the yes and no campaigns. I have spoken to both sides and the do


seem... You say, you always say that. They say, no, our canvass


returns show that we are going to win this. Somebody is going to look


foolish on Friday morning. We have been told we have been to the doors,


people are solid. You say to the yes side and they say we have been


consistently ahead for the last ten days or so. We are talking about


20,000 cantons runs a day. It does not look like a panto on either


part. -- canvass returns. What do you make of it? It is possible that


voters are lying to both campaigns. I agree with Tom that anything could


happen on Thursday. Most people have a hunch I read up feeling. That


tends to confirm the outcome that they would like to see happen, no


voters have a quiet small conviction that everything will be all right in


the end. Yes voters are convinced deep inside them that all these no


voters are secret yes voters and they will have their conversion


moment as they walk into the polling station and all will be well. The


truth is that nobody really knows what will happen. What is your


guess? Six months ago, in January I said it would be 53-47 now. I think


it might still be a no vote. But it could be closer than that. Do you


have a hunch? I have always thought it would be exceptionally close. It


would be down to 1% or 2%, but I did not know who far. I think there is


still time for warble. People going to the polling booth and thinking...


You mean the polls were showing a yes" back. In their referendum in


sovereign tree. -- sovereignty. In the last second, the no side


recovered and the one x 50.6%. There is still scope for that. They have a


lot of energetic supporters. What you think they need to do over the


next few days? I do not think there is very much for them to do. They


have exhausted everything they can do. I would expect more of the same,


to be honest. We will have the yes campaign talking up team Scotland.


They will see vote for your imagined future. We will have the no side


focusing on the economic uncertainties of voting yes. It is


too late to have any last-minute change of direction. I do not think


we should expect any great surprises in the last 100 hours. You are


nodding. I would agree wholeheartedly with that. Maybe a


few months ago they could have said vote no and you can take the oil.


Something dramatic like that. Did it surprise you? Last Sunday, George


Osborne seem to be saying, there is this enormous new thing we are


announcing. Then it became just a timetable for stuff we had not


agreed upon. They should have said, they should have made a no for Devo


Max. It was always crystal clear throughout the campaign that if you


vote now you get this reviewed package of reforms. They cannot


agree on a single tax and the still don't agree. We do not know the


timetable even if we agree a bunch of powers on a no vote, we will not


know when those will comment. The process takes eight years long. When


these new powers come into effect is anyone's guess. It is not brilliant


politics. It is in the way a cucumber does not look like a


tomato. The Conservatives, the Strathclyde commission is the most


auto of these. They did not think a new Scotland Bill would be required


or would be ready in time for the first queen's speech after the next


UK election. It will have to be that. We will have to leave it


there. Thank you both very much indeed.


I'll be back at the same time next week.


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