21/09/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


21/09/2014

The latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Good morning from Manchester, where politicians and the Labour

:00:15.:00:19.

conference are trying to work out what the independence fallout means

:00:20.:00:20.

for the rest of the UK. Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday

:00:21.:00:58.

Politics. Scotland's decision to vote no means more power is heading

:00:59.:01:02.

north of the border, but what about home rule for England? Independence

:01:03.:01:09.

for Scotland has been his life's work,. First Minister Alex Salmond

:01:10.:01:13.

tells us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And an

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exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour MPs think

:01:18.:01:23.

about immigration, the EU and their party. We will ask the Shadow

:01:24.:01:25.

Business Secretary if he agrees. Coming up in

:01:26.:01:26.

Sunday Politics Scotland: Alex Salmond accuses Westminster

:01:27.:01:28.

of reneging on further devolution. We'll be talking

:01:29.:01:30.

about the delivery of those extra for the capital? With me, the best

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and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they

:01:49.:01:52.

pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have

:01:53.:01:55.

done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates

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from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers

:02:04.:02:07.

for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives

:02:08.:02:09.

Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which

:02:10.:02:14.

has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question

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has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre

:02:22.:02:27.

stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was

:02:28.:02:34.

put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote,

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there was nothing about English-only votes. It was unconditional? The

:02:38.:02:45.

Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the

:02:46.:02:48.

proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this

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issue. That was very cautious. -- cautiously. These proposals will not

:02:54.:03:00.

get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only

:03:01.:03:03.

issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.

:03:04.:03:07.

Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link

:03:08.:03:10.

between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,

:03:11.:03:12.

is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away

:03:13.:03:28.

these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they

:03:29.:03:36.

weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.

:03:37.:03:40.

Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't

:03:41.:03:43.

want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight

:03:44.:03:48.

timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,

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most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish

:03:52.:03:55.

parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions

:03:56.:04:03.

in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional

:04:04.:04:06.

questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple

:04:07.:04:12.

reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories

:04:13.:04:15.

have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip

:04:16.:04:20.

out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a

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partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow

:04:25.:04:27.

through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,

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but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.

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It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.

:04:40.:04:42.

You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard

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to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for

:04:49.:04:53.

English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs

:04:54.:04:58.

get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London

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and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were

:05:02.:05:06.

before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed

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in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and

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the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the

:05:15.:05:17.

time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that

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would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see

:05:23.:05:27.

off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour

:05:28.:05:30.

backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws.

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Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases

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unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to

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the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about

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20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a

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coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to

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be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should

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probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.

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But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one

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piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep

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something called the Barnett Formula.

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It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.

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And it's how the UK government decides how much

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public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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It's controversial, because it's led to public spending

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being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.

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Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.

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I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the

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Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page

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of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial

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devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible

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not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been

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promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,

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but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern

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Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue

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across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We

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have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to

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England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount

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spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West

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and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the

:07:30.:07:33.

elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and

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the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a

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sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the

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Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in

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contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would

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confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union

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on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft

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poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect

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and if anything was counter-productive to the overall

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result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted

:08:13.:08:18.

for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the

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promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would

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have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal

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Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett

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Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,

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and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's

:08:39.:08:43.

trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in

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rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK

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-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending

:08:56.:08:58.

formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the

:08:59.:09:06.

oil revenues it sends to London. Scotland is only getting back on

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spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that

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suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let

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me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the

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Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A

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huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting

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North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need

:09:37.:09:39.

to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the

:09:40.:09:42.

Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and

:09:43.:09:47.

grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we

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need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,

:09:52.:09:57.

when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local

:09:58.:09:59.

authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland

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must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The

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Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for

:10:09.:10:13.

Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't

:10:14.:10:15.

he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?

:10:16.:10:19.

Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the

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heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth

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is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and

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English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot

:10:36.:10:39.

of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is

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unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should

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deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's

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deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they

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locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for

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joining us. The man responsible

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for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within

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touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic

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announcements, and he gave us another on Friday

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when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute

:11:07.:11:08.

to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to

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Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with

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the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole

:11:16.:11:38.

place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what

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you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them

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here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy

:11:46.:11:49.

Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the

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turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the

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electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare

:11:59.:12:10.

Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,

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and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together

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campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in

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100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you

:12:28.:12:30.

think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around

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five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's

:12:41.:12:44.

biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for

:12:45.:12:48.

areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have

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you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many

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copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes

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campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one

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of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,

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has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC

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has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the

:13:17.:13:22.

no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the

:13:23.:13:25.

numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in

:13:26.:13:33.

this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no

:13:34.:13:37.

campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum

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is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has

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said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of

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the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more

:13:53.:13:55.

devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.

:13:56.:13:59.

Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish

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Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,

:14:04.:14:07.

as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on

:14:08.:14:11.

these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same

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pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we

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might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?

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Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not

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next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex

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Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my

:14:41.:14:47.

time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,

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and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the

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Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.

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Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows

:15:04.:15:10.

no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in

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Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to

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resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it,

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Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we

:15:24.:15:29.

were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I

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considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch

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time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not

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really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have

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to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility

:15:55.:15:59.

and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need

:16:00.:16:04.

a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,

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you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future

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political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP

:16:13.:16:16.

and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they

:16:17.:16:20.

would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the

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campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were

:16:26.:16:31.

going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the

:16:32.:16:37.

campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought

:16:38.:16:42.

we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the

:16:43.:16:47.

fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at

:16:48.:16:50.

Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real

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thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of

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people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a

:17:00.:17:04.

reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the

:17:05.:17:08.

perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only

:17:09.:17:14.

five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city.

:17:15.:17:21.

There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an

:17:22.:17:26.

enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,

:17:27.:17:32.

though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In

:17:33.:17:36.

Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is

:17:37.:17:40.

what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,

:17:41.:17:45.

leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong

:17:46.:17:51.

and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do

:17:52.:17:55.

a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been

:17:56.:18:00.

leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give

:18:01.:18:05.

somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that

:18:06.:18:09.

well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the

:18:10.:18:15.

national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,

:18:16.:18:20.

the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the

:18:21.:18:23.

referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the

:18:24.:18:27.

political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met

:18:28.:18:34.

just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that

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there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.

:18:38.:18:44.

Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any

:18:45.:18:48.

campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer

:18:49.:18:54.

not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be

:18:55.:18:58.

called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I

:18:59.:19:03.

will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,

:19:04.:19:07.

broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political

:19:08.:19:11.

campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an

:19:12.:19:15.

energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.

:19:16.:19:19.

It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which

:19:20.:19:24.

carried the Yes Campaign so far, almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch

:19:25.:19:31.

put his Scottish Sun behind you, would have that made the difference?

:19:32.:19:41.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not

:19:42.:19:47.

say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure

:19:48.:19:53.

about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other

:19:54.:19:59.

papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish

:20:00.:20:02.

independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced

:20:03.:20:07.

and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers, I

:20:08.:20:16.

would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We

:20:17.:20:19.

certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I

:20:20.:20:24.

think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have

:20:25.:20:29.

liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if

:20:30.:20:41.

you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he

:20:42.:20:45.

defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has

:20:46.:20:50.

always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that

:20:51.:20:55.

can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for

:20:56.:20:59.

example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would

:21:00.:21:03.

argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they

:21:04.:21:08.

are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are

:21:09.:21:12.

doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You

:21:13.:21:17.

don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to

:21:18.:21:22.

their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing

:21:23.:21:24.

on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change

:21:25.:21:30.

in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in

:21:31.:21:34.

carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from

:21:35.:21:38.

UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England

:21:39.:21:41.

which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English

:21:42.:21:46.

matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable

:21:47.:21:50.

object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.

:21:51.:21:56.

The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the

:21:57.:21:58.

last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now

:21:59.:22:04.

engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded

:22:05.:22:09.

to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that

:22:10.:22:15.

are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching

:22:16.:22:19.

this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the

:22:20.:22:25.

opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the

:22:26.:22:32.

back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for

:22:33.:22:39.

the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from

:22:40.:22:47.

their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I

:22:48.:22:53.

think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There

:22:54.:22:56.

have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%

:22:57.:23:01.

increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than

:23:02.:23:07.

that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the

:23:08.:23:17.

opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from

:23:18.:23:21.

politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday,

:23:22.:23:28.

coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,

:23:29.:23:34.

which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line

:23:35.:23:38.

of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,

:23:39.:23:42.

rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in

:23:43.:23:50.

the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.

:23:51.:23:58.

So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see

:23:59.:24:01.

you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?

:24:02.:24:08.

Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of

:24:09.:24:13.

Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to

:24:14.:24:17.

serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I

:24:18.:24:21.

have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a

:24:22.:24:25.

chore. I'm not saying they didn't do it properly, I am sure they did. But

:24:26.:24:32.

I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of

:24:33.:24:35.

Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good

:24:36.:24:38.

observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with

:24:39.:24:41.

being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it

:24:42.:24:53.

will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! Thanks for joining us. Great

:24:54.:25:02.

pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the

:25:03.:25:06.

next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven

:25:07.:25:10.

months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what

:25:11.:25:17.

are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for

:25:18.:25:22.

the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an

:25:23.:25:23.

exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.

:25:24.:25:29.

Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public

:25:30.:25:33.

spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them

:25:34.:25:36.

want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.

:25:37.:25:42.

18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the

:25:43.:25:46.

number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to

:25:47.:25:51.

immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with

:25:52.:25:55.

trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too

:25:56.:25:59.

close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the

:26:00.:26:05.

nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the

:26:06.:26:10.

railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their

:26:11.:26:17.

preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for

:26:18.:26:23.

the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many

:26:24.:26:30.

left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of

:26:31.:26:33.

candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in

:26:34.:26:37.

terms of what is left and right. I think they see it in terms of what

:26:38.:26:40.

is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking

:26:41.:26:45.

about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the

:26:46.:26:48.

last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working

:26:49.:26:52.

very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are

:26:53.:26:55.

talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they

:26:56.:27:00.

want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to

:27:01.:27:03.

re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much

:27:04.:27:06.

immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions

:27:07.:27:10.

clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your

:27:11.:27:14.

characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of

:27:15.:27:19.

tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central

:27:20.:27:22.

position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority

:27:23.:27:29.

of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about

:27:30.:27:33.

immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,

:27:34.:27:38.

yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people

:27:39.:27:41.

putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if

:27:42.:27:45.

you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of

:27:46.:27:48.

benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those

:27:49.:27:52.

positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are

:27:53.:27:59.

saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left

:28:00.:28:04.

wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those

:28:05.:28:09.

positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the

:28:10.:28:13.

majority of your viewers. I don't think your viewers think the idea of

:28:14.:28:17.

the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are

:28:18.:28:20.

going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to

:28:21.:28:26.

scrap Trident, not party policy? It isn't.

:28:27.:28:31.

I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at

:28:32.:28:37.

the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.

:28:38.:28:43.

This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the

:28:44.:28:49.

survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are

:28:50.:28:53.

basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our

:28:54.:28:56.

Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at

:28:57.:29:00.

their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's

:29:01.:29:05.

fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people

:29:06.:29:13.

see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a

:29:14.:29:16.

Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.

:29:17.:29:22.

We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations

:29:23.:29:25.

in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many

:29:26.:29:28.

people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do

:29:29.:29:33.

not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about

:29:34.:29:36.

the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the

:29:37.:29:39.

future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I

:29:40.:29:43.

don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in

:29:44.:29:54.

terms of who runs the next government. That one of your

:29:55.:29:56.

candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the

:29:57.:29:58.

unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have

:29:59.:30:03.

spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any

:30:04.:30:09.

different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people

:30:10.:30:12.

working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of

:30:13.:30:15.

journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been

:30:16.:30:19.

brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should

:30:20.:30:24.

be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?

:30:25.:30:28.

I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you

:30:29.:30:32.

look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM

:30:33.:30:37.

Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership

:30:38.:30:41.

with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.

:30:42.:30:46.

I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be

:30:47.:30:50.

closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our

:30:51.:30:58.

relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do

:30:59.:31:02.

you need a constitutional conversation where you have to

:31:03.:31:05.

discuss whether English people voting on English matters is

:31:06.:31:08.

unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,

:31:09.:31:11.

but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the

:31:12.:31:19.

Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of

:31:20.:31:25.

the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't

:31:26.:31:29.

want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity

:31:30.:31:32.

where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK

:31:33.:31:37.

Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it

:31:38.:31:41.

is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes

:31:42.:31:46.

out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see

:31:47.:31:52.

it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been

:31:53.:31:55.

around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making

:31:56.:31:58.

a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not

:31:59.:32:03.

just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can

:32:04.:32:10.

vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport

:32:11.:32:14.

is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of

:32:15.:32:17.

competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to

:32:18.:32:21.

them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different

:32:22.:32:25.

MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is

:32:26.:32:28.

happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people

:32:29.:32:32.

politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities

:32:33.:32:36.

and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in

:32:37.:32:41.

Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in

:32:42.:32:45.

bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed

:32:46.:32:50.

before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.

:32:51.:32:54.

That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to

:32:55.:32:57.

devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being

:32:58.:33:01.

decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax

:33:02.:33:06.

powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper

:33:07.:33:10.

being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put

:33:11.:33:16.

forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you

:33:17.:33:19.

haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I

:33:20.:33:21.

can't Per capita spending in Scotland is

:33:22.:34:31.

way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, yet per capita incomes in

:34:32.:34:34.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair for a Labour

:34:35.:34:40.

politician? We have said is we want to have more equitable distribution.

:34:41.:34:44.

You said you were retrying the Barnett Formula. The other McKerr

:34:45.:34:47.

I'm not sure necessarily punching Scotland is the way to go. I have

:34:48.:34:54.

two say, what message do this -- does this send to the Scottish

:34:55.:34:56.

people? I am absolutely delighted with the result we have got, the

:34:57.:35:00.

Unity, the solidarity we are maintaining across the nations of

:35:01.:35:04.

the UK, and I think all of this kind of separatist talk, setting up

:35:05.:35:07.

different nations of the UK against each other, goes completely against

:35:08.:35:10.

what we have all been campaigning for over the last two years. We

:35:11.:35:15.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Will come onto the announcement on

:35:16.:35:19.

the minimum wage. You will increase it by ?1 50, to take it to ?8. That

:35:20.:35:24.

would be over five years. Over five years, that is all you are going to

:35:25.:35:28.

do, and have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:29.:35:35.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work is being done on it. So how much? I

:35:36.:35:42.

can give you an exact figure. The policy absolutely pays for itself,

:35:43.:35:45.

and the way we have looked at this, we have looked at the government's

:35:46.:35:49.

own figures, because of people are earning more, they therefore would

:35:50.:35:52.

be paying more in income tax, they will be receiving less in benefit,

:35:53.:35:56.

we will have to pay out less in tax credit. So we are absolutely

:35:57.:35:59.

confident that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking you about the

:36:00.:36:02.

payment, but what it means for low paid workers. They are going to get

:36:03.:36:10.

an extra 30p an hour. How much of the 30p did I get to keep? I'll tell

:36:11.:36:13.

you what it means. In terms of what they actually get in the first

:36:14.:36:18.

instance, somebody on the minimum wage now with our proposal will be

:36:19.:36:21.

getting in the region of ?3000 more per year than they are at the

:36:22.:36:24.

moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they get to

:36:25.:36:28.

keep? We are confident we the modelling on this, and I can give

:36:29.:36:32.

you an exact figure. If you have done the modelling, why can you give

:36:33.:36:36.

me a figure? We are talking about some of the lowest paid people in

:36:37.:36:40.

the country. We are confident they would be better off. I would suggest

:36:41.:36:44.

that with this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50,

:36:45.:36:49.

60, or 65%. They would not keep most of this increase you are talking

:36:50.:36:53.

about. I don't accent your figures, and we are confident that... I don't

:36:54.:36:58.

have any in my head which I can give you right now! Do you think up

:36:59.:37:02.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think of that would up

:37:03.:37:08.

policies before we announce them. We think people will be better off with

:37:09.:37:11.

the change we are proposing, and we are also seeking to incentivise

:37:12.:37:15.

employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I

:37:16.:37:19.

said, the economy is recovering, great. But we know at the moment, it

:37:20.:37:23.

is still delivering for a huge number of your viewers, and we are

:37:24.:37:26.

determined to do something about that. The status quo isn't enough an

:37:27.:37:29.

option. Thank you for joining us. Twice in three days! You can have

:37:30.:37:36.

too much of a good thing! I am mad! He said that not me. It has just

:37:37.:37:42.

gone 11:35 a.m.. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, but not for

:37:43.:37:45.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:46.:37:50.

After Scotland votes decisively to remain within the UK, the

:37:51.:37:55.

First Minister seems to suggest the public were tricked into voting No.

:37:56.:38:02.

I am actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments. I

:38:03.:38:09.

am only surprised by the speed at which they are doing it. They seem

:38:10.:38:12.

to be totally shameless in these matters.

:38:13.:38:13.

All three parties pledge themselves to further devolution, but will they

:38:14.:38:16.

Scotland's political firmament was shaken on Friday.

:38:17.:38:23.

An unforgettable week in which a majority of

:38:24.:38:25.

It lead to the departure of one of the most outstanding politicians

:38:26.:38:30.

With Alex Salmond gone, Scotland and the rest of the UK now

:38:31.:38:35.

But the referendum result leaves large question marks hanging over

:38:36.:38:40.

the future leadership and direction of the Scottish National Party,

:38:41.:38:44.

Bute house, the First Minister's official residence. On Friday, the

:38:45.:39:01.

setting for a surprise statement. After the people of Scotland had

:39:02.:39:04.

made their views clear on independence, the First Minister

:39:05.:39:08.

ended speculation about his future. I believe that this is a new,

:39:09.:39:12.

exciting situation that is redolent with possibility. But in that

:39:13.:39:21.

situation, I think that the party, Parliament and country would benefit

:39:22.:39:24.

from new leadership. Therefore, I have told the national secretary of

:39:25.:39:28.

the SNP that I shall not accept nomination leader at the annual

:39:29.:39:33.

conference in Perth on the 13th to 15th of November. In poetic

:39:34.:39:36.

language, the fight was clearly not.

:39:37.:39:42.

For me as leader, my time is nearly over, but for Scotland, the campaign

:39:43.:39:47.

continues, and the dream shall never die.

:39:48.:39:55.

But with that charismatic, electorally successful leader Don,

:39:56.:39:59.

who can now succeed him? Well, Nicola Sturgeon is the obvious

:40:00.:40:03.

answer. Likely to be crowned with no contest. The external affairs

:40:04.:40:08.

Minister has tweeted his support. He is in the frame for the deputy's

:40:09.:40:13.

post, and he is politically close to Ms Sturgeon. Derek Mackay, the local

:40:14.:40:17.

government minister, might want to challenge him, and Alex Neill will

:40:18.:40:21.

be closely watched. He stood for the leadership in 2000. So, how does the

:40:22.:40:26.

party move on? Squabble with Westminster over more powers, or

:40:27.:40:30.

offer some more radical approach, claiming the power of the 45% behind

:40:31.:40:35.

you? A Yes vote would have been an impressive win for the master of

:40:36.:40:40.

Bute house, but the new First Minister will have to settle for

:40:41.:40:41.

less, at least at the moment. Well, a little while ago I spoke to

:40:42.:40:48.

the Finance Secretary, John Swinney, I asked him

:40:49.:40:51.

whether it was wise that the First Minister has been quoted this

:40:52.:40:56.

morning saying that the Scottish I think it pretty accurately sums up

:40:57.:41:11.

what has been going on over the last three days. It is a very solemn

:41:12.:41:18.

commitment that was given by the UK political parties during the

:41:19.:41:20.

referendum, and they were decisive, in my opinion, because I met many

:41:21.:41:24.

people who are contemplating voting Yes, but decided to vote No because

:41:25.:41:29.

they thought they would get more powers, and so it had an affect on

:41:30.:41:33.

the outcome in my opinion, very strongly. And we now find ourselves

:41:34.:41:36.

looking at all sorts of comments that have been made by the Prime

:41:37.:41:41.

Minister, by various figures within the Labour and Conservative parties

:41:42.:41:45.

that suggest there is more than a little backsliding going on.

:41:46.:41:49.

I am sure you did meet people who changed their mind, but there will

:41:50.:41:53.

be very many people watching this programme who voted No, and might

:41:54.:42:00.

want to say to you, look, we weren't misled or gold or conned in some

:42:01.:42:04.

way. We have had a two-year debate. We have had a 500 odd page white

:42:05.:42:09.

paper from the Scottish Government, telling us your prospectus for

:42:10.:42:13.

independence, and we decided we did not want it. The danger for you is,

:42:14.:42:19.

you might start looking as if you are doing another variant of saying

:42:20.:42:22.

to people in Scotland, you were too stupid and to scared to vote yes. No

:42:23.:42:29.

not in the slightest. I don't know how many interviews I have done

:42:30.:42:32.

since Thursday night on Friday morning, and I have accepted

:42:33.:42:35.

unreservedly that we did not win the referendum on Thursday. I think we

:42:36.:42:41.

did fantastically well, we got 45% of the public to vote for

:42:42.:42:45.

independence, 1.6 million people, and at -- the only point I'm making

:42:46.:42:53.

to you is that some people were going to vote for independence but

:42:54.:42:56.

decided that the opposite is more powers given by the three UK leaders

:42:57.:43:01.

were more a more attractive proposition, and voted No as a

:43:02.:43:04.

consequence, and therefore they are entitled to be taken seriously by

:43:05.:43:07.

those three UK leaders and have what they voted for delivered, and that

:43:08.:43:11.

is what we will hold them to account for.

:43:12.:43:13.

Would you agree that whatever happens in the next few weeks, the

:43:14.:43:16.

Scottish National Party needs to have a long think about what kind of

:43:17.:43:24.

party it wants to be? For the last ten, 15 or 20 years, every time

:43:25.:43:28.

there is debate on any subject in Scotland, the SNP says, yes, but of

:43:29.:43:33.

course, if we had independence, we would do X, Y and Z. That is not an

:43:34.:43:37.

option that is available any more, so what does the SNP become? Do you

:43:38.:43:42.

become a gradualist party, sort of like Plaid Cymru? Is that the idea?

:43:43.:43:47.

I wouldn't accept your characterisation of the SNP, because

:43:48.:43:50.

we have been in government for seven and a half years, and have delivered

:43:51.:43:55.

a whole range of different policy commitments to tackle inequality, to

:43:56.:44:00.

create jobs in Scotland, to create better prospects for individuals, to

:44:01.:44:05.

deliver free education... I'm not denying that, just saying that the

:44:06.:44:08.

SNP has to be fundamentally different now, doesn't it?

:44:09.:44:12.

I did think so, because what we have done is actually rolled our sleeves

:44:13.:44:17.

up, worked very hard as a government to tackle issues that matter to the

:44:18.:44:19.

people of Scotland in their everyday lives, and we will return -- we were

:44:20.:44:27.

returned in 2011 and decisively to continue their job.

:44:28.:44:31.

Yes, but the one absolutely distinctive policy of the SNP is now

:44:32.:44:36.

off the agenda for a generation, so surely, you have do start to rethink

:44:37.:44:40.

what kind of party you wants to be? Well, there are undoubtedly will be

:44:41.:44:44.

a tactical debate within the Scottish National Party about how we

:44:45.:44:47.

advance our agenda, but my answer to your question is that there is no

:44:48.:44:52.

way the SNP will ever be a party that does not believe in and support

:44:53.:44:55.

and argue for Scottish independence. You will never change my mind on

:44:56.:45:00.

that. That is my deeply held view. But the problem is you can't do it

:45:01.:45:03.

on a day-to-day basis as you have been doing, because people will be

:45:04.:45:07.

fed up with it. People will turn round and say, we are fed up to our

:45:08.:45:10.

back teeth with this stuff. We just had a vote on independence and we

:45:11.:45:18.

rejected it. Please can we talk about something else give macro that

:45:19.:45:20.

is why I completely reject your characterisation of what we are

:45:21.:45:21.

about. Let's take welfare, for example. The

:45:22.:45:24.

UK Government is changing welfare arrangements in the UK, and I could

:45:25.:45:30.

say in all of that, OK, that is a UK responsibility, I can't do anything

:45:31.:45:33.

about it until we get independence. But that is not what we are saying.

:45:34.:45:38.

We have put ?23 million into tackling the issues of welfare

:45:39.:45:41.

reform as they attacked council tax benefit, money to tackle the bedroom

:45:42.:45:48.

tax, and so on. We're not sitting and twiddling our thumbs and waiting

:45:49.:45:50.

for independence, but tackling issues that matter to people in

:45:51.:45:54.

Scotland. That is why I reject your characterisation of the SNP in that

:45:55.:45:56.

fashion. Nicola Sturgeon - next leader?

:45:57.:46:02.

Well, I certainly hope so. I am encouraging her to do so, and I will

:46:03.:46:06.

be an enthusiastic and energetic supporter of Nicola's. I look

:46:07.:46:12.

forward to her taking a campaign through the party to become our next

:46:13.:46:18.

leader, and then to be nominated to be First Minister. Nothing will give

:46:19.:46:20.

me more satisfaction than to see under the glass ceiling in Scotland

:46:21.:46:25.

shattered when Nicola Sturgeon, as I hope she will be, successfully is

:46:26.:46:28.

elected as First Minister in Scotland.

:46:29.:46:30.

Did you consider may be going in for it, or did you decide you weren't

:46:31.:46:34.

really a glutton for punishment to that extent?

:46:35.:46:37.

Several weeks ago, I was asked the question by a journalist in

:46:38.:46:40.

Scotland, and he very fairly reported my reaction, saying, Mr

:46:41.:46:44.

Swinney did not quite close the door, he slammed it shut and then

:46:45.:46:47.

nailed it shot for absolute security and definition that it would not

:46:48.:46:51.

happen. There is no way I would contemplate going back into the

:46:52.:46:54.

party leadership. I had my chance, and enjoyed it. I would not be going

:46:55.:46:59.

back in there, and I will be a totally enthusiastic supporter.

:47:00.:47:02.

If I were Nicola Sturgeon watching this, I would think, given what he

:47:03.:47:07.

has just said, I'm not sure I want to do this?

:47:08.:47:09.

I'm quite sure she knows where she would be letting herself in for, but

:47:10.:47:13.

she will have many many people giving her enthusiastic support to

:47:14.:47:17.

take forward what I am certain will be excellent leadership.

:47:18.:47:19.

John Swinney, we will have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank

:47:20.:47:21.

you. In a statement early on Friday

:47:22.:47:23.

morning, the Prime Minister said he was "delighted" at the outcome

:47:24.:47:26.

of the referendum, but acknowledged that a significant number of Scots

:47:27.:47:28.

had expressed dissatisfaction with Mr Cameron said he was committed to

:47:29.:47:30.

delivering additional devolution, not just to Scotland

:47:31.:47:34.

but to the rest of the UK. Well, to talk about how difficult

:47:35.:47:36.

that task will be, I'm joined now by our Westminster

:47:37.:47:39.

correspondent David Porter, who's David, you get about a bit, don't

:47:40.:47:56.

you? Is this reconcilable? We have had Alistair Darling this morning

:47:57.:48:01.

and Ed Miliband this morning saying, look, devolution for England and

:48:02.:48:03.

devolution for Scotland are separate issues. We have pledged to the

:48:04.:48:11.

people of Scotland that we will do it, and be in Sirius trouble if we

:48:12.:48:14.

don't. Yet we have David Cameron saying, we can't do devolution for

:48:15.:48:19.

Scotland unless we addressing this matters. How do you reconcile that?

:48:20.:48:23.

It will be a tough one and a very thorny question to solve. If they

:48:24.:48:28.

are going to get some kind of deal on this, they will have to be a

:48:29.:48:31.

compromise. David Cameron has said he wants more devolution to

:48:32.:48:35.

Scotland, but it has to be linked with the English question. Ed

:48:36.:48:38.

Miliband says he wants more devolution for Scotland, but it

:48:39.:48:40.

should not be linked with the English question. That needs a

:48:41.:48:45.

constitutional convention. I think what we're now seeing is, following

:48:46.:48:49.

the event on Thursday night, the speeches on Friday morning, and a

:48:50.:48:53.

huge sigh of relief from the Unionist parties that Scotland did

:48:54.:48:55.

not decide to vote for independence, they are now wrestling with some

:48:56.:49:01.

very difficult problems, not just be constitutional once, but also

:49:02.:49:04.

internal party management problems. Add to that that we are in the

:49:05.:49:08.

run-up to a general election, and it just proves how difficult this whole

:49:09.:49:13.

question of UK wide constitutional reform is going to be. They will not

:49:14.:49:17.

be quick or easy. Thank you very much for that.

:49:18.:49:19.

Over recent days, the former Prime Minister Gordon

:49:20.:49:21.

Brown has been a key figure in trying to convince the public that

:49:22.:49:24.

In a speech in his constituency yesterday, Mr Brown said that

:49:25.:49:27.

processes were already under way at parliament and in

:49:28.:49:30.

the civil service to bring forward legislation by the end of January.

:49:31.:49:33.

A little earlier I spoke to Douglas Alexander, shadow Foreign Secretary,

:49:34.:49:41.

And to ensure that there is proper scrutiny by the rest of the world,

:49:42.:49:46.

so everybody knows that this deadline will be adhered to. I have

:49:47.:49:50.

called on the commission of the Speaker of the House of Commons,

:49:51.:49:55.

which will take place on the first week back in Westminster, on

:49:56.:49:59.

Thursday, October 16, and in the debate, I will want to ensure that

:50:00.:50:03.

the instructions to deliver have become a plan to deliver and not

:50:04.:50:06.

just a timetable to deliver, but a certainty that we will deliver.

:50:07.:50:13.

A short while ago I spoke to the Shadow Foreign Secretary,

:50:14.:50:16.

Douglas Alexander, who was in our Edinburgh studio.

:50:17.:50:20.

I put it to him that every area that voted yes in the referendum was

:50:21.:50:22.

a traditional heartland of Scottish Labour - and asked him whether that

:50:23.:50:24.

meant his party was in crisis here. I would not accept that. People

:50:25.:50:33.

moved and shifted from past party allegiances during this result. That

:50:34.:50:38.

is why areas like Murray and the Western Isles and Perth and Kinross

:50:39.:50:46.

recorded significant nor majorities. But if you are asking me if we have

:50:47.:50:55.

work to do to offer at the Scottish people then absolutely. We spent two

:50:56.:51:01.

years towards making this decision. The challenge for all of us is to

:51:02.:51:07.

challenge the same kind of energy that was unleashed by this campaign

:51:08.:51:12.

to tackle poverty and building up our services. There will be plenty

:51:13.:51:19.

of opportunities for post match analysis but it is clear Scottish

:51:20.:51:25.

Labour was central to a campaign which recorded a decisive ten point

:51:26.:51:33.

difference between the two parties like a significant turnout of 85%

:51:34.:51:37.

and the resignation of the First Minister. From the Labour point of

:51:38.:51:48.

view every area that voted yes is a traditional Labour heartland. Labour

:51:49.:51:54.

has been incapable of developing a narrative to do with equality,

:51:55.:51:59.

poverty and deprivation which breaks away from the terms on which it is

:52:00.:52:04.

claimed by the Scottish Nationalists. You have not convinced

:52:05.:52:09.

you're on people that the Nationalist way of looking at this

:52:10.:52:15.

is wrong. Offered the offered the 640 page white paper which had one

:52:16.:52:24.

policy for redistribution. This is approximately true but why did the

:52:25.:52:34.

vote yes in some parts? You are not letting me and the question. Whether

:52:35.:52:39.

it is the fact they have put money to the richest, whether the fact

:52:40.:52:43.

they have taken money out while in office, they are resisting the top

:52:44.:52:51.

rate of 50p and an increase for the big energy companies. There will

:52:52.:52:55.

continue to be big differences between the SNP and Labour, I

:52:56.:53:00.

welcome that contest. There was a prior question which had to be

:53:01.:53:06.

resolved, are we in or out of the UK, that has now been decisively

:53:07.:53:11.

spoken for by the people of Scotland. That is to stay within the

:53:12.:53:19.

UK. If what you have just said has any credibility, why have all been

:53:20.:53:23.

traditional heartlands of Labour support in Scotland trooped into the

:53:24.:53:31.

polling booths to vote yes to the prospectus route across by the SNP?

:53:32.:53:38.

I represent the community of Renfrewshire where we recorded a

:53:39.:53:44.

clear mandate for Scotland staying within the United Kingdom, as we did

:53:45.:53:49.

in Hall sweeps of the country which you are not talking about today.

:53:50.:53:55.

Fife for example, a decisive majority in favour of staying within

:53:56.:54:01.

the UK. It was the final vote which delivered Scotland's place in the

:54:02.:54:06.

UK. Of course I accept the dark challenges which Scotland faces

:54:07.:54:09.

along with old people" partly responding to this. The fact is that

:54:10.:54:16.

2 million Scots on Thursday made clear our view that the way to

:54:17.:54:26.

advance is to stay within the UK. Do you think he meant an organisation

:54:27.:54:34.

should be set up or what? For the last two years we have had the most

:54:35.:54:39.

extraordinary civic engagement but it has not created a single job or

:54:40.:54:45.

lifted a single child out of poverty. If we were to challenge the

:54:46.:54:51.

same energy that was boot into the constitutional question I think we

:54:52.:54:55.

could serve Scotland more effectively. To build the community

:54:56.:55:01.

you get people a common task. By doing what? To improve the will and

:55:02.:55:08.

well-being of the people of Scotland. You are talking about

:55:09.:55:15.

setting up an organisation? If the focus can shift from trying to end

:55:16.:55:21.

Britain to trying to end poverty. There has to be a reappraisal from

:55:22.:55:24.

the people on the other side of the argument who argued for many years

:55:25.:55:30.

that Scotland actually wanted independence. They must now

:55:31.:55:36.

reconcile the fact that we want demolition to work. It is by doing

:55:37.:55:41.

that we can empower communities and tackle poverty. If I was the SNP I

:55:42.:55:49.

would say this sounds very grand but what you are asking us to do is join

:55:50.:55:56.

with you in diffusing nationalism on your traditional support in areas

:55:57.:56:00.

like Glasgow while these are in fact the new people supporting us so,

:56:01.:56:07.

thank you, but no. We have seen the settled will of the SNP for decades

:56:08.:56:12.

long wanting a separate sovereign state being defeated by the

:56:13.:56:15.

sovereign will of the Scottish people. A clear mandate for Scotland

:56:16.:56:23.

to stay within the UK. I accept that there is a painful and difficult

:56:24.:56:27.

reckoning but the truth is we can now build a common cause with in

:56:28.:56:32.

Scotland as to what we are trying to do. To move our nation forward with

:56:33.:56:38.

a process of democratic reform but also social and economic reform as

:56:39.:56:46.

well. Given that there were points about tackling unemployment and

:56:47.:56:50.

improving the health service I think we can now come together and try to

:56:51.:56:54.

make those improvements happen. You are about to be going to church to

:56:55.:57:00.

be reconciled with John Swinney. Thank you very much. Thank you.

:57:01.:57:05.

Our guests today are David Clegg, who's Political Editor at the

:57:06.:57:08.

Daily Record, and the journalist and economic

:57:09.:57:09.

commentator, George Kerevan. Is that for old times sake that you

:57:10.:57:20.

have the badge on? I met yes campaigners who had taken the

:57:21.:57:24.

posters down on Friday and started putting them back up on Saturday.

:57:25.:57:29.

Because actually we won. We are getting home rule that we have

:57:30.:57:34.

argued for for 100 years. That means we can do all the things we want in

:57:35.:57:39.

terms of social justice. It looks also like England will get home

:57:40.:57:45.

rule. If we look at Scotland going towards social democracy which is

:57:46.:57:49.

what we all want and if England goes the way it once which is more

:57:50.:57:55.

towards Nigel Farage, tell me be will be together in ten years, I do

:57:56.:58:01.

not think so. Would you mind after the programme fawning the SNP and

:58:02.:58:04.

telling them what you have said because that does not appear to be

:58:05.:58:16.

there idea. Now, the promises made by the Westminster leaders are going

:58:17.:58:20.

to have to be delivered or else there will be anger. The SNP are

:58:21.:58:26.

right when they say the anger will spill over to people who voted in

:58:27.:58:31.

the referendum. The best guarantor of these powers is the prospect of

:58:32.:58:37.

another referendum which all the Unionist parties will be determined

:58:38.:58:43.

to avoid. It was very conclusive, the turnout was fantastically high

:58:44.:58:47.

and the result was clear. Independence is not something the

:58:48.:58:51.

Scottish public want but they do want more powers in Edinburgh. Alex

:58:52.:58:58.

Salmond, one of the major figures in Scottish politics, he has earned the

:58:59.:59:04.

right to decide when he weaves as first minister but I wonder if it

:59:05.:59:08.

was in the interests of the SNP to design on Friday. Cause they want to

:59:09.:59:18.

frame things as they got 40 5%. As soon as he stepped down it became

:59:19.:59:30.

the Nationalists lost. The thing I got excited about when I read the

:59:31.:59:35.

Daily Mail quote about the 2016 Holyrood election saying the SNP was

:59:36.:59:45.

on course to win a third victory. To secure that electoral victory we

:59:46.:59:49.

needed to change the readership. I am looking forward to having all

:59:50.:59:54.

three political parties in Scotland led by women and I think that will

:59:55.:00:01.

lead to the SNP strength. Alec has been around for 23 years more or

:00:02.:00:09.

less. What you think of the timing of this? I thought he would leave in

:00:10.:00:15.

November at the party conference, I thought he might take a week or two.

:00:16.:00:22.

One of the reasons is that there are a lot of disappointed independence

:00:23.:00:26.

supporters at the time and it sort of keep it up on the sorrow that the

:00:27.:00:32.

First Minister was leaving. I Cannes and this morning there is chat among

:00:33.:00:40.

SNP members for their quest urgent, Colin Fox and Patrick Hardy sweeping

:00:41.:00:49.

the general election next May. I think that is far-fetched. There is

:00:50.:00:51.

no doubt the Labour Party will have some problems in the West of

:00:52.:00:58.

Scotland are been areas. Clearly was the largest yet bought coalesces

:00:59.:01:05.

almost exactly with weird labour has previously been strongest. They will

:01:06.:01:09.

need to address that. One way is to get the powers sorted out in the

:01:10.:01:18.

long-term. Douglas Alexander was arguing with me in which areas did

:01:19.:01:22.

what but it does not go away, does it? The precedence is set for an

:01:23.:01:29.

all-party alliance in Canada. In Canada they realised the

:01:30.:01:35.

difficulties of getting the mass of the population to vote for the

:01:36.:01:41.

national election, the National party. I find that in Scotland in

:01:42.:01:46.

2010 when I stood as an SNP candidate. If we could follow the

:01:47.:01:56.

cubic example and create a block of pro-democracy and pro-independence

:01:57.:02:00.

parties in Scotland, that might solve the problem. It proves the

:02:01.:02:05.

debate is moving forward, the momentum and impetus is still with

:02:06.:02:10.

the yes side. I'd much wrote do not go away. They will be with you to

:02:11.:02:15.

any couple of minutes. Let's cross for the news now with Andrew Kerr.

:02:16.:02:22.

Good afternoon. As the fall-out from the referendum

:02:23.:02:26.

continues, the First Minister says the three pro-union parties tricked

:02:27.:02:30.

voters into opting for "no".Alex Salmond claimed they were reneging

:02:31.:02:35.

on the pledge they made on new powers in the days before the poll.

:02:36.:02:38.

He said No voters would feel "misled and tricked".

:02:39.:02:40.

On the Andrew Marr Show, the Labour leader Ed Miliband said

:02:41.:02:43.

the extra powers which he pledged, along with David Cameron and

:02:44.:02:44.

Nick Clegg, will go ahead. A service of reconciliation

:02:45.:02:53.

following the referendum is being Moderator of the Church of Scotland

:02:54.:02:56.

is leading worship. He's expected to ask Scots to put

:02:57.:02:59.

their differences aside and work together to redefine

:03:00.:03:02.

the country's place within the UK. Party representatives will light

:03:03.:03:04.

a candle, symbolising commitment. Now let's take a look

:03:05.:03:11.

at the weather with Gillian. If in. A lovely afternoon across

:03:12.:03:21.

most of the country, as high-pressure establishes itself

:03:22.:03:26.

across the UK. Crisp sunshine, the best of it across central and

:03:27.:03:29.

western Scotland. More cloud across the North. For the Northern Isles,

:03:30.:03:34.

temperatures on the cool side, just 12 Celsius, but up to 17 or 18 in

:03:35.:03:37.

the best of the sunshine in the south-west.

:03:38.:03:38.

There's been much discussion over the last few days

:03:39.:03:46.

about the timetable for greater powers at the Scottish Parliament.

:03:47.:03:49.

There's continuing disagreement over the nature of further devolution

:03:50.:03:51.

and whether legislation will be in place by next year.

:03:52.:03:53.

But earlier today, Alistair Darling told the BBC the vow made

:03:54.:03:56.

The agreement reached by the three bodies, as far as I'm concerned, is

:03:57.:04:09.

non-negotiable. It was promised, it's got to be delivered, and anyone

:04:10.:04:13.

who welshes on that will pay a very heavy price for years to come. It is

:04:14.:04:18.

simply non-negotiable. I believe it will be delivered. The process is

:04:19.:04:22.

already underway. By the end of next January, you will have a bill ready

:04:23.:04:26.

to go and become an act of Parliament. Of course, there is a

:04:27.:04:30.

separate issue about what further constitutional change comes to the

:04:31.:04:33.

UK, but to be very clear about this, you cannot hold up or delay in any

:04:34.:04:40.

way at all what was promised. The three leaders gave an absolute

:04:41.:04:43.

commitment, and I am confident they will deliver on it.

:04:44.:04:44.

Joining us from Edinburgh, Professor Charlie Jeffery,

:04:45.:04:46.

director of a research programme on Devolution Constitutional Change,

:04:47.:04:48.

There is an emerging and rather fascinating clash of right against

:04:49.:05:02.

right here, isn't there? Labour are absolutely right to say, a vow was

:05:03.:05:06.

made and that has to be kept, irrespective of what happens in the

:05:07.:05:10.

broader issue of constitutional change for the rest of the UK. But

:05:11.:05:13.

on the other hand, the Conservatives are right to say, well, you can't

:05:14.:05:18.

expect the people of England to axe at a shed load more power is going

:05:19.:05:22.

to Scotland unless the West Lothian question is addressed?

:05:23.:05:25.

Indeed, Gordon. I think at the moment, we are in something like a

:05:26.:05:29.

constitutional change reaction, which was prompted by those polls

:05:30.:05:33.

before the referendum which pushed the No side into firming up this

:05:34.:05:37.

timetable for additional powers. That in itself prompted some

:05:38.:05:41.

discontent in England, especially on the Conservative backbenches, which

:05:42.:05:46.

made Prime Minister Cameron's announcement on English votes for

:05:47.:05:50.

English laws in the House of Commons something like a necessity to

:05:51.:05:54.

maintain the unity of the Conservative Party. Wales was also

:05:55.:05:59.

showing some discontent over that commitment on the Barnett Formula.

:06:00.:06:02.

Wales feels underfunded. So what we see now is a chain reaction, which I

:06:03.:06:07.

think is inherently unstable, and I think it is beginning to pit the

:06:08.:06:11.

nations of the UK against each other, but also to pit the parties

:06:12.:06:13.

against each other in different ways. That Better Together unity is

:06:14.:06:19.

gone, very, very quickly. Yes, but the problem is surely that

:06:20.:06:24.

if this just turns into a political squabble tween Labour and the

:06:25.:06:27.

Conservatives ahead of the next general election, there could be

:06:28.:06:33.

quite dire consequences here. Obviously, we can't have another

:06:34.:06:36.

referendum, but you have a lot of people genuinely feeling, hang on,

:06:37.:06:41.

we voted No, and we really have, as Alex Salmond suggested, been conned.

:06:42.:06:45.

Well, we just had Alistair Darling saying that the timetable is

:06:46.:06:48.

non-negotiable, and I believe him entirely in his commitment to that,

:06:49.:06:53.

but I do think there are tremendous challenges for delivering that

:06:54.:07:01.

timetable. There is a very, very small window for public consultation

:07:02.:07:05.

set out in that timetable. There is very little mention of the Scottish

:07:06.:07:10.

Parliament's own rights to begin salted on UK legislation, affecting

:07:11.:07:14.

the Scottish Parliament. We would expect the parliament to set up a

:07:15.:07:18.

committee to take evidence, to be due to report. There is absolutely

:07:19.:07:21.

nothing there. The technical details around welfare devolution are

:07:22.:07:25.

immense. Just ask Iain Duncan Smith about the difficulties in changing

:07:26.:07:30.

arrangements around welfare benefits. All of these things are

:07:31.:07:34.

really tremendous pressures on that non-negotiable timetable.

:07:35.:07:39.

Yes, and added to that long list of problems, the parties don't agree,

:07:40.:07:44.

do they? Even on the more powers for Scotland bit. It is actually the

:07:45.:07:47.

Tories who have got a radical devolution review, for example, on

:07:48.:07:51.

income tax, and Labour is proposing something much, much more modest,

:07:52.:07:55.

and they are going to do so is something them.

:07:56.:07:58.

What we have seen is precisely that. The Liberal Democrats and

:07:59.:08:02.

Conservatives have by some way the most ambitious proposals on tax

:08:03.:08:07.

devolution, and labour, by some way, have the least ambitious. And that

:08:08.:08:11.

is another dimensional of this constitutional challenge that we

:08:12.:08:14.

have at the moment, and that is that the Labour Party, in its Westminster

:08:15.:08:19.

and in its Holyrood incarnations, is this United. The Westminster level

:08:20.:08:25.

party is deeply sceptical about further tax devolution. The Holyrood

:08:26.:08:29.

party is not, and we will have to see which one wins out.

:08:30.:08:34.

Is there a danger -- dangerous complacency here? The leader of the

:08:35.:08:40.

Labour Party might be tempted to think, what is coming next? It is a

:08:41.:08:44.

general election. We always do well in general elections in Scotland,

:08:45.:08:48.

the SNP always do badly. So even if these problems you have just

:08:49.:08:50.

described are still there, we don't really need to worry that much?

:08:51.:08:55.

Well, that would probably be an ill-advised way of thinking about

:08:56.:09:00.

the matter. If there is slippage from this non-negotiable timetable,

:09:01.:09:05.

or if what emerges from it is a rather modest form of additional

:09:06.:09:10.

devolution, not that maximum home rule that was just talked about,

:09:11.:09:14.

then we suspect the Labour Party above all of the others will be the

:09:15.:09:18.

one that is punished at the UK general election in Scotland.

:09:19.:09:20.

Thank you very much. We're joined again by our guests,

:09:21.:09:22.

David Clegg and George Kerevan. Let's talk a little bit about what

:09:23.:09:32.

has been promised by Gordon Brown. A lot of people, particularly on the

:09:33.:09:39.

Yes side, are saying this morning, hang on, this guy is a Labour

:09:40.:09:43.

backbencher. Why is he suddenly Mr Scotland? What is he doing going

:09:44.:09:47.

around signing things with David Cameron? I think there is an element

:09:48.:09:52.

of truth in that, in that he doesn't have any power specifically to

:09:53.:09:54.

deliver any of these things, but what he has been doing is Carl

:09:55.:10:02.

Allingham become known as the Val now, after the front-page Reid had

:10:03.:10:07.

on the daily record, and Gordon Brown was instrumental in bringing

:10:08.:10:11.

together that platform. -- Vo. But it will be down to the parties to

:10:12.:10:16.

deliver it, is the central point. But deliver what? Let me make an

:10:17.:10:20.

analogy, if I could. When David Cameron said I am delivering more

:10:21.:10:23.

powers to Scotland, but of course, I want English votes for English MPs,

:10:24.:10:29.

Labour immediately thought, hang on, this is a trap. Even if we have a

:10:30.:10:33.

Labour government, we might not control what happens in England. If

:10:34.:10:36.

you look at what Gordon Brown said, he is effectively saying, I want a

:10:37.:10:42.

happy clap the coalition with the Scottish Government and the Scottish

:10:43.:10:46.

National Party in order to convince working-class people in the West of

:10:47.:10:51.

Scotland that they have nothing to do with nationalism.

:10:52.:10:54.

Yes, the biggest loser, I think history will show, on Thursday, with

:10:55.:11:00.

the Labour Party. They have been snookered, and Gordon Brown has been

:11:01.:11:05.

wound up by the media to offer all this and to try and drag in the

:11:06.:11:09.

working-class into staying in the No camp. He did not succeed. He

:11:10.:11:15.

galvanised the middle class, yes. He now seems to want to get the SNP to

:11:16.:11:19.

help them do that. Yes will stop if I was Gordon, I would have woken up

:11:20.:11:22.

today wishing that I had gone with Wendy Alexander's proposal to have

:11:23.:11:26.

the referendum six years ago, because he would still be prime Mr.

:11:27.:11:30.

But he did not do that, because he always bottles it. The problem now

:11:31.:11:35.

is, Labour has lost its heartland in Scotland, now we have David Cameron,

:11:36.:11:39.

who is really serious about pushing this English agenda. It sees off

:11:40.:11:44.

UKIP, and his right wing, because he is cloaking himself in English

:11:45.:11:50.

nationalism. And it does away with Labour, the only UK wide National

:11:51.:11:57.

party. The Tories are corralled in England. Labour is the only

:11:58.:11:59.

significant political party across the whole UK. If Labour can be

:12:00.:12:06.

broken, Cameron is safe and the Tories are safe in England, but the

:12:07.:12:13.

downside of that for them is that of course, that could break up the

:12:14.:12:16.

United Kingdom for sure. Is there not an issue for labour that, in

:12:17.:12:20.

Scotland, it always seems to be arguing within the framework of the

:12:21.:12:23.

Nationalists are happy with? They are still doing it. It is now, more

:12:24.:12:27.

powers for the Scottish parliament. They seem incapable of managing to

:12:28.:12:32.

do get out of that, if you like, and develop a story about social

:12:33.:12:35.

solidarity across the UK, and say, of course we were more powers for

:12:36.:12:39.

the Scottish parliament, but it is not the most important thing. We are

:12:40.:12:43.

not petty nationalist like the SNP are. Why can't they do that? I'm not

:12:44.:12:48.

sure if I accept your analysis about they haven't done that. If they

:12:49.:12:54.

have, it hasn't worked! They may be social solidarity argument

:12:55.:12:56.

throughout the referendum campaign, with varying levels of success. The

:12:57.:13:01.

problem is, if there is an appetite for more devolution, it would be

:13:02.:13:05.

foolish not to be on that territory. So they have come to the conclusion

:13:06.:13:09.

that more devolution is what Scotland wants and good for

:13:10.:13:12.

Scotland, so they are attempting to deliver it. That is a very, very

:13:13.:13:18.

different concept to saying you want an independent Scotland. There is a

:13:19.:13:21.

vast difference, so to suggest that because they are calling for more

:13:22.:13:25.

powers, that is in some way capitulating to Scottish naturalism,

:13:26.:13:32.

they don't accept that. I wonder... We are getting terribly excited

:13:33.:13:36.

about this. The game is still on. All this talk among the SNP about

:13:37.:13:40.

getting together the common folks, and Bruce Croall foot, he responded

:13:41.:13:46.

to that by saying, can we not just shut up for a few days? -- Bruce

:13:47.:13:52.

Crawford. Wouldn't that be sensible? Actually, no. What was great and

:13:53.:13:57.

fascinating as an exercise in democracy about the campaign was, it

:13:58.:14:01.

came from the bottom up, and it is not the leaderships of any of the

:14:02.:14:04.

parties that can control this. The people want to move on. This is

:14:05.:14:09.

about power, not devolution. Why Glasgow voted for independence, they

:14:10.:14:15.

want power. There is not time. You have to come back in future. Thank

:14:16.:14:17.

you. I'll be back

:14:18.:14:17.

at the same time next week.

:14:18.:14:22.

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