Browse content similar to 28/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics live | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
There'll be one less Conservative MP here after Reckless defected | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
joins us live from his constituency he's triggered a by-election. | :00:48. | :00:57. | |
It's not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister as he arrives | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election. | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
And should we be targeting Syria too? | :01:12. | :01:20. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland. | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
The referendum has prompted a dramatic rise He in political | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
engagement, but what where can political parties do to harness not | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists, | :01:32. | :01:43. | |
who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals. | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh. | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
At the current rate of Tory resignations, | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow. | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty. | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
Here's what the Prime Minister had to say | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and | :02:30. | :02:42. | |
rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Conservative government after the next election. | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester. | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
the community, particularly over house-building. The government has | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
Tories. This is your voice mail... I have just picked up your e-mail... | :04:20. | :04:40. | |
So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises. | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
That is why I am moving to UKIP, so I can deliver the change this | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage, | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election. | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
with the political class in Westminster, that they have not | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2010 | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the | :07:00. | :07:09. | |
party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened, | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at | :07:36. | :07:46. | |
MPs who have moved party before, almost none of them have given their | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and | :08:16. | :08:24. | |
honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary, | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change, | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system, | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question - | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How | :10:20. | :10:32. | |
serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease, | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that. | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
of us were not around in the 1980s, but I imagine it is pretty bad. | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose, the | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
media problem of the general election which they cannot win if | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am. | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said, | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback. | :13:09. | :13:20. | |
To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
Pollsters ComRes spoke to over 1,000 councillors - | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year, | :13:36. | :13:48. | |
and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns. | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be | :14:36. | :14:44. | |
stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave, | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
39% would stay in. Asked about immigration... | :15:00. | :15:11. | |
It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my | :16:03. | :16:11. | |
residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60% | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
way by setting a rule like that, it is a very religious thing and it is | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong, | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons. | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
trust the party leadership to deliver on Europe, do they? They | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
believe people like you and David Cameron will campaign to stay in and | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
they are right. They said before they defected that people should | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
vote Conservative to get a referendum on Europe, and that is | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
right of course. The only way to get a referendum is to do that and this | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
is the point, the people should decide. However a future government | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
decides it will campaign, it should be the people of the country who | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
decide. Can you say to our viewers this morning that is not enough | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
powers are repatriated back to Britain, you would want to come | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
out, can you say that? Our objective is to get those powers and stay in. | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
The answer to the question is I won't be deciding, David Cameron | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
won't be deciding, you the voters will be deciding. But you have to | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
give us your view. If you don't get enough powers back, would you vote | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
to come out and recommended? Our objective is to get those powers and | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
be able to stay in. You just get endless speculation years in | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
advance. I will decide at the time how I will vote. Surely that is the | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
rational position for everyone to take but I want a referendum to take | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
place. I understand that. As you pointed out to Mark Reckless just | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
now, unless there is a Conservative government, people won't have that | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
choice. Under a Labour government they will not get a choice at all. | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
Our survey of Tory councillors shows that almost 50% would vote to leave | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
the EU in a referendum. I think it showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
again, I'm pretty sure they will decide at the time. They will want | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
to see what a future government achieves in a renegotiation before | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
they decide what to vote in a referendum. Unless David Cameron is | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
Prime Minister and there is a Conservative government, there will | :20:23. | :20:30. | |
not be a renegotiation. That is a point you have made four times. I | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
think they have got it. Your Cabinet colleague says we should not be | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
scared of quitting the EU, but you went native in the Foreign Office, | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
didn't you? You used to be a Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
Office line man. No, I don't think so! We brought back the first | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
reduced European budget ever in history. Even Margaret Thatcher... | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't it? Not much scares me after 26 | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
years in politics but we want to do the best thing for the country. | :21:05. | :21:13. | |
Where we scared when we got us out of liability for Eurozone bailouts? | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
We were not scared of anybody. People said we couldn't achieve | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
things but we negotiated these things. We can do that with a wider | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless says he cannot keep the Conservative | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
promise to tackle immigration. You have failed to keep your promise to | :21:36. | :21:49. | |
keep net immigration down. You promised to cut it below 100,000, | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
you failed. It is over 200,000 people. We have cut it from 250,000 | :21:55. | :22:13. | |
in 2005, the last figures were 240,000. I think we can file that | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
under F four failed. It includes students, we want them in the | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
country. You knew that when you made the promise. But has it come down? | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Yes, it has. Have we stopped the promise. But has it come down? | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
coming here because of our benefit system? Yes. None of that happened | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
under Labour. If Mark Reckless had his way, it would be more likely we | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
would have a Labour government. They have an open door policy on | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
immigration. You are not just losing MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters. | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows that 20% of people who voted Tory in | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
2010 have abandoned youth and three quarters of them are voting UKIP | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
now. We will see in the general election. Politics is very fluid in | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
this country and we shouldn't deny that in any way but UKIP thought | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
they were going to win the by-election in Newark, we had a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
thumping Conservative victory, and I think opinion polls are snapshots of | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
opinion now. They are not forecast of the general election and we will | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
be doing everything we can to get our message across. Today we are | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
announcing 3 million more apprenticeships in the next | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
Parliament. I think this is what people will be voting on, rather | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
than who has defected. Your activist base once parked with UKIP. Our | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
survey shows a third of Tory councillors would like a formal pact | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
with UKIP. Why not? It shows two thirds are against it. No, it shows | :24:01. | :24:09. | |
one third want it. I read the figures, it showed 67% don't want | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
it. We are not going to make a pact with other parties, and they don't | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
work in the British electoral system even if they were desirable. You are | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
sharing the Cabinet committee on English votes for English laws. Is | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
further devolution for Scotland conditional on progress towards | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
English devolution? No, the commitment to Scotland is | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
unconditional. We will meet the commitments to Scotland but we | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
believe, we the Conservatives believe, that in tandem with that we | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
have to resolve these questions about fairness to the rest of the UK | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
as well. That will depend on other parties or the general election | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
result. Are you committed to the Gordon Brown timetable? Yes, | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
absolutely. So you are committed to producing draft legislation by Burns | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
night, that is at the end of January. Will you produce proposals | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
for English votes on English laws by then? We will, but whether they are | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
agreed across the parties will depend on the other parties. There | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
was no sign that they were agreeable at the Labour conference. We will | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
produce our ideas on the same timetable as the timetable for | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Scottish devolution. You will therefore bring forward proposals | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
for English votes for English laws by the end of January? Yes. And will | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
you attempt to get them on the statute book before the election? | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
The commitment in Scotland is to legislate after the election. You | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
will publish a bill beforehand? We will publish proposals beforehand. I | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
don't exclude doing something before the election, but the Scottish | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
timetable is to legislate for the further devolution after the general | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
election, whoever wins the election. Have you given thought as to what | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
English votes for English laws would mean? I have thought a lot of it | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
over 15 years. I am not going to prejudge what the outcome will be, | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
but it does mean in essence that when decisions are taken, decisions | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
that only affect England or only England and Wales, then only the MPs | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
from England and Wales should be making those decisions. You can | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
achieve that in many different ways. Is that it for English | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
devolution, is that what it amounts to? That is devolution to England if | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
you like, but within England there is a lot of other devolution going | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
on and we might well want to extend that further. We have given more | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
freedom to local authorities, there is a lot of scope to do more of | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
that, but that in itself is not the answer to the problem of what | :27:08. | :27:16. | |
happens at Westminster. You haven't just given Scotland more devolution | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
or planned to do it, you have also enshrined the Barnett formula and | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
that seems to be in perpetuity. It is widely regarded as being unfair | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
to Wales and many of the poorer English regions. Why do you | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
perpetuate it? It will become less relevant overtime if more | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
tax-raising powers... It goes all the way back to the 1970s, we made a | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
commitment on that, we will keep our commitments to Scotland as more -- | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
but as more tax-raising powers devolved, the Barnett formula is | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
less significant. If you transfer ?5 billion of tax-raising powers to | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
Scotland, 5 billion comes off the Barnett formula? It will be a lot | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
more complicated than that, but yes, as their own decisions about | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
taxation are made, the grand from Westminster will go down. And you | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
can guarantee that if there is a majority Conservative government, | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
there will be English votes for English laws after the election? | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Yes, I stress again that there are different ways of doing it but if | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
there is no cross-party agreement on that, the Conservatives will produce | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
our proposals and campaign for them in the general election. Don't go | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
away because I want to move on to some other matters. | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
Now to the fight against so-called Islamic State terrorists. | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried out their first flights over Iraq | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
since MPs gave their approval for air-strikes against the militants. | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
When you face a situation with psychobabble -- psychopathic killers | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
who have already brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
already launched and tried to execute plots in our own country to | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
maim innocent people, we have a choice - we can either stand back | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
from this and say it is too difficult, let's let someone else | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
try to keep our country safe, or we take the correct decision to have a | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
full, comprehensive strategy but let's be prepared to play our role | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
to make sure these people cannot do not trust harm. | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
And William Hague is still with me - until July he was, of course, | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
Why have only six Tornado jets being mobilised? Do not assume that is all | :29:39. | :29:50. | |
that will be taking part in this operation. That is all that has been | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
announced and I do not think we should speculate. Even the Danes are | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
sending more fighter jets. There is no restriction in the House of | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
Commons resolution passed on Friday on what we can do. So why so | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
little? Do not underestimate what our Tornados can do. They have some | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
unique capabilities, capabilities which have been specifically asked | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
for by our allies. When you are on the wrong end of six Tornados, it | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
will not feel like a small effort. But there will be other things which | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
can add to that effort. We are joining in a month after the | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
operation started, we are late, we are behind America, France, | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, one hand tied behind our | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
backs cause of the rule about not attacking Syria - why is the British | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
government leading from behind? First of all, we are a democratic | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
country, and you know all about Parliamentary approval. You could | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
have recalled parliament. We have done that, with a political | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
consensus. Other European countries also took the decision on Friday to | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
send their military assets. Our allies are absolutely content with | :31:06. | :31:07. | |
that, and Britain will play an important role, along with many | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
other nations, including Arab nations. General Sir David Richards | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
Sheriff, who just steps down as the Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
condemns the spineless lack of leadership and the absence of any | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
credible strategy. It is embarrassing,isn't it? Of course, | :31:27. | :31:37. | |
they turn into armchair generals. We are playing an important role, we | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
are a democratic country. Your viewers will remember, we had a vote | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
last year on military action in Syria and we were defeated in the | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
House of Commons, a bad moment for our foreign policy. We have taken | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
care to bring this forward when we can win a vote in the House of | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
Commons, and that is how we will proceed. The air Chief Marshal until | :31:57. | :32:05. | |
recently in charge of the RAF, he says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
but not Syria. He calls the decision ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
sense to bomb Iraq, because the Iraqi government has asked for our | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
assistance. This came up a lot in the debate on Friday, and the Prime | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Minister explained, similar to what I have just been saying, that there | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
is not a political consensus about Syria in the House of Commons. When | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
we did it last year, we were defeated, and it was described by | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
all commentators as a huge blow to the government and to our foreign | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there is a majority | :32:48. | :32:48. | |
in There are several answers. Just | :32:49. | :33:12. | |
because you're not doing anything does not mean you should not do | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
something. The United States and other countries are involved in | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
action against targets in Syria. If we were to put that proposal to the | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
House of Commons tomorrow and it was defeated we would not have achieved | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
a great deal. You don't know what it would be if the case is strong. The | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
Labour Party holds hostage your foreign and defence policy? We are | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
democratic country and have to go through the House of Commons in | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
these things and the Labour Party is a large part. Is it not embarrassing | :33:52. | :34:02. | |
to be on the wrong side of so many of these military experts? Why | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
should we trust the judgement of here today, gone tomorrow | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
politicians against the expertise? We have military experts with us | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
now. This is the big difference from the last government. We have | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
national security council. Which you are cheering? It is cheered by the | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
Prime Minister and I am a member of it. We take decisions together. By | :34:27. | :34:37. | |
the people who have the information now. Chairing the committee, you | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
will know what British and American intelligence says about Syria. The | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
Prime Minister has said there's a danger the British-born jihadists | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
will come back and attack us but the intelligence reports are quite | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
clear, Al-Qaeda and its associates are selecting and indoctrinating the | :34:59. | :35:07. | |
jihadist sincerity not Iraq. -- in Syria, not Iraq. I cannot comment on | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
intelligence reports but Syria are direct threat to this country, and | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
have we excluded taking action? We have not. Could you come back and | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
ask? It was specifically said in the motion before the house that if we | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
wanted to take action we would come back to the House of Commons. That | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
could happen but we haven't taken any decision and we would not do so | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
as we thought we were just going to be defeated like we were last year. | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
The government supports strikes on silly as and you must believe they | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
are legal. The legal base differs from one country to another. You | :35:50. | :35:57. | |
must believe the US is involved in legal action otherwise you would not | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
support it. They are taking action legally and we support action but | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
really, I entirely understand it is a legitimate question, but you are | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
asking why Iraq and not silly? The answers are those I have given. -- | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
and not Syria? We support our allies in what they do and we are also | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
engaged in building up the political strength of the more moderate | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
opposition in Syria and trying to bring about a piece solution. Has | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
the government got legal advice that if we were to attack Syria that | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
would be legal? The way it works as if we propose doing something we | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
seek for the specific legal advice. Why would you not look for it | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
we do not comment on the advice given to us. Tony Blair ended up | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
publishing houses. He did so because there was a huge public dispute. You | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
have not had legal advice that Britain attacking Syria would be | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
legal? The legal situation is likely to be the barrier, let me put it | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
that way, because within international law, you can act in | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
the face of extreme distress and collective self-defence, so you can | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
imagine legal justification for this. We will take the advice at the | :37:25. | :37:34. | |
time in detail. You're watching Sunday Politics, goodbye to viewers | :37:35. | :37:35. | |
in Scotland who leave us now. Good morning and welcome to | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
Sunday Politics Scotland. How long will be Spike and political | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
engagement last? Will the political parties continue | :37:44. | :37:58. | |
to feel the love from new members And what do additional powers | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
look like when it comes to Can governments | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
actually create jobs? It's the week after the big vote | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
and while posturing over powers and leadership continues | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
the number of people joining political parties in Scotland has | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
reached an unprecedented level. With a turnout out of almost 85%, | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
the referendum undoubtedly stirred up interest in Scottish politics | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
but without independence as a focus, how can the parties hold | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
on to this renewed enthusiasm? As the light faded, the queue grew. | :38:27. | :38:49. | |
Fresh Greens joined the party's Glasgow branch, so many that it | :38:50. | :38:59. | |
exceeded their expectations. I am utterly overwhelmed, thank you. At | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
the last count, more than 4000 signed up to the party in the seven | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
days after the referendum taking total membership up to 5600. Tom is | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
one of the new joiners. The whole referendum has energised me and my | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
friends. We had such a feeling of hope. Your vote actually meant | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
something last week and hopefully we can carry that on. The Greens are | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
not alone in that boosted popularity. Since the referendum, | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
membership has grown to almost 70,000 making it the third largest | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
party in the UK but as the hangover lists, will new members lose | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
interest? There will inevitably be some who are brought back down by | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
life and in some cases some can be disaffected and there may be | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
financial reasons or emotional reasons, but I do not believe it | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
will be a great deal. You cannot turn the clock back. The awakening | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
of people to real power and real change. Once that has happened it is | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
a march forward. Suzanne used to support the Labour Party and is not | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
the only member to switch allegiance. Although the party will | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
not publish membership and feel we are told that has increased by | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
hundreds during the period. The Scottish Socialists have reported an | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
increase as well with no data available for Conservatives Liberal | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
Democrats. How long will this renewed enthusiasm last and what can | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
politicians do to capture it? We have seen fantastic engagement on | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
both sides. It has engaged people. The situation now looks like a | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
different challenge, because in challenge, you mobilise over | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Scottish interests, and what is very clear is that so far the parties | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
that were supporting the yes side seemed to be doing a better job at | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
this, which makes sense because people were brought on who now want | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
to stay on board, whereas the No site have to create a new topic that | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
grabs people passionately, and they have to make the Westminster | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
election is not just about Westminster but about Scottish | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
interests. The hopes of the new card carrying members join those of the | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
party faithful and a Scotland's politics continue to change it seems | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
there is renewed pressure on the party faithful and a Scotland's | :41:42. | :41:43. | |
politics continue to change it seems there is renewed pressure on the | :41:44. | :41:45. | |
parties not to disappoint. I am joined by Patrick Harvie now, | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
and from Birmingham studio, David Mundell. Were you as disconcerted | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
that that meeting as you appeared to be? I was blown away completely. | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
Normally the Glasgow branch meets in the backroom of a pulp and if we get | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
50 people that is great, so we moved to a bigger venue because we thought | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
might get more than that but even that venue was mobbed before the | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
meeting began with a huge queue stretching down the path. We had to | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
have a separate meeting outside. If these figures are accurate that your | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
membership has tripled. Quadrupled. There is an issue for you as the | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
leader of the Greens in Scotland. In what sense do you own the party? I | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
never did. They knew people who have joined could quite easily tangling | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
policy in a different direction? That has always been the case that | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
the membership control the party. We do not use leadership, I am the core | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
convener, and that simply means we cheer at the National Council and | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
are elected every year. We do not dictate policy strategy. The council | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
and the annual conference make those decisions and that will continue to | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
be the case. One obvious example, perhaps unlikely, but let's say all | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
these said that Watkins used as was the green bit of your policy and we | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
do not like the independence but so can we scrap that? I know for a fact | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
there have been yes and No voters who have joined us in the wake of | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
the referendum, which is partly because although we were clear about | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
the majority position, we were always comfortable challenging the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
SNP on AV as we disagreed. My point stands. That would have been the | :43:38. | :43:49. | |
case even before this. According to you it is quadrupled the case now? | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
So it is much more exciting! The first thing we should ask viewers | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
are you going to defect to UKIP? I most certainly am not. We have a big | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
job to do in Scotland in terms of bringing and delivering more powers | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
to the Scottish Parliament. We have had a very successful campaign. When | :44:13. | :44:22. | |
you say we, you mean the Conservatives? The Conservative | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
party in Scotland have played a very significant role in the referendum | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
campaign. Ruth Davidson has led from the front and that was ignored from | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
commentators on all sides of the argument. We made a passionate case | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
for Britain as a positive case for Scotland's future and everyone | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
acknowledges Ruth Davidson was the game changer in relation to more | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
powers for the Scottish Parliament for her bold proposals. I am not | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
sure everyone does agree with that. The Conservative party recruitment | :44:58. | :44:59. | |
drive in Scotland, how's that going? The number we have made | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
available throughout this campaign is the 80,000 people who signed up | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
to our Conservative friends of the union campaign. But how many new | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
members? Focused on actually getting people active in politics, and Ruth | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
Davidson led that. We want to continue that. We want to keep these | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
people active in their own localities and nationally and some | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
have gone on to join the party and want to be candidates. A lot of | :45:35. | :45:45. | |
those people want to be active. We have about 11,000 members and new | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
members during the course of the campaign. How many? The people who | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
signed up to friends of the union, that is what I think is the | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
positive. You have said that, I am asking how many new members? Several | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
hundred new members. About 11,000 at the moment, but 80,000 have been | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
willing to sign up to our campaign to keep Scotland and the union. That | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
is the third time you have said that. You're not using these | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
old-fashioned methods like getting people to join your party? We are | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
clearly moving forward into a different political environment and | :46:31. | :46:32. | |
people want to be members of the party. They want to influence policy | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
and perhaps stand for election. There are also people who want to be | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
active in their local communities and I think that is one of the big | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
challenges in Scotland because under the present Scottish government we | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
have seen a centralisation of power. Even if they want to be active in | :46:51. | :46:57. | |
their local communities they have little opportunity. The problem is | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
that no one is going to deny that getting more members is a good thing | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
from your point of view, but the question for you and the SNP as well | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
is what this really means, whether these people are just coming on | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
because there's a bit of excitement after the referendum? Or whether you | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
can convince them to become activists? Of the people we have met | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
not just in the Glasgow branch, there's a real appetite and | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
enthusiasm for getting involved, but we do not know exactly what our | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
membership will be a year or two from now but we hope it will | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
continue to grow. It goes beyond just the numbers. The next link | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
coming up as the general election. The next thing as the debate about | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
where devolution goes next. Can I just say one thing. Back do you have | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
ambitions of having a Green MP? Of course, why would you stand on | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
election if you do not want to get elected. We do you think that might | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
be? There are target seats we're going to announcing shortly. We will | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
be announcing target seats shortly, but the point I want to make, and | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
this is really important, the connection of people with politics, | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
and we need to find ways of political parties being more open to | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
that and not just saying we have left number, you have that. This is | :48:24. | :48:34. | |
about a political process. Briefly, David, do the Conservatives have | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
ambition? A lot of areas where you used to have seats, some of them | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
SNP, voted 60 - 40 against independence. Do you see that as an | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
opportunity? A significant target for us as those who have | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
Conservative values but have been voting SNP. I think the referendum | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
demonstrated that at a lot of people have come to understand that if you | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
vote SNP you are voting for independence and a focus on | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
constitutional issues, and if you want to see Conservative policy | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
implemented you should vote for the Conservative Party. Which is your | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
main target to be the second Conservative seat in Scotland? I am | :49:17. | :49:24. | |
not going to fall into that trap. We have been there before. The analysis | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
and focuses entirely about the numbers. What we want to do is get | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
good candidates in place and all the seats in Scotland and fight as hard | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
as we can. Don't go away, we will come back to you. | :49:40. | :49:41. | |
We've seen the grass-roots, but the people | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
in suits are left arguing about more powers for the Scottish Parliament. | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
Lord Smith, the chair of the cross-party | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
commission in devolution, is asking the parties for their proposals. | :49:49. | :49:50. | |
We heard in the campaign about job-creating powers. | :49:51. | :49:52. | |
But what are these drivers to employment? | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
Can governments push a lever and create jobs? | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
As Andrew Kerr reports, there's no rest or relaxation, | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
as those carrying on the campaign for constitutional change want to | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
see proposals for powers taking-off, rather than stalling. | :50:07. | :50:28. | |
creaming off holidays after a long, hard battle. Unless they have jetted | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
off, more for Parliament has been in people's brains. The turbofan engine | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
is responding in this era craft, no doubt politicians wish they had this | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
kind of instantaneous control. Governments have to rely on | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
different levers to pursue policies. It sounded like there was a simple | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
manoeuvre for employment. Alistair Darling struggled but fundamentally | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
do governments create jobs? The implications seem to be that there | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
are laws which need to be passed or powers handed over from Westminster | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
to Holyrood that somehow instantly and magically lead to job creation. | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
I think it says something about how instinctively on the left many | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
Scottish politicians are that that assumption was not challenged more | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
frequently. Year passenger duty could be set at a local level to | :51:39. | :51:48. | |
help businesses, say some. Powers are only important in so far as they | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
allow businesses to create jobs. A range of tax powers for Scotland | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
which allow government to create the environment to allow businesses to | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
create jobs. Our members have consistently highlighted business | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
rates as one of the key taxation factors for the businesses but that | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
has already been devolved for 15 years. Governments can react on the | :52:13. | :52:21. | |
tax system and insight ways to get out of the current system to help. | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
Ultimately the people who create jobs are at those who start new | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
businesses and expand existing businesses, employ people, grow and | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
make money. Not so for this independence leading commentator. | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
More powers are useful to give government a strong guiding hand. | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
Jobs depend on your skills base and how much investment there is. | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
Britain has one of the lowest levels of industrial investment in the | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
Western world because we put all our money in banks and send it abroad. | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
It would be useful if there was a way to encourage investment. | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
Critically, what does the Scottish government need to get to create | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
jobs? Key powers over two things, some degree of control over the rate | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
of business taxation which is normal in most industrialised countries. It | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
needs powers to borrow in its own right which feeds directly into | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
business productivity. Aiming high or perhaps too tall an order? The | :53:39. | :53:49. | |
Westminster parties need to deliver. I am joined again by Patrick Harvie | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
of the Green Park Day and a Conservative MP in about Birmingham | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
studio. Corporation tax which was mentioned there, is that off the | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
agenda as far as you are concerned for more devolution? I do not see | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
the benefits of devolving corporation tax because I think you | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
see the model from the US where you get into a race to the bottom | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
basically if you have different levels of corporation tax within the | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
United Kingdom. The Smith commission is up and running and people can | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
submit views and ideas. I would argue against corporation tax. What | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
I do want to see is the full devolution of income tax which we | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
argued for because I think that is most significant. You are a member | :54:44. | :54:51. | |
of the government and the government will have to implement this | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
legislation. If the British government you are representing says | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
we do not think corporation tax should be included it is not going | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
to happen, is it? I am setting out a view among parties. I am not setting | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
out the government possession. It is the conservative position which is | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
we do not think the devolution of corporation tax within the UK would | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
be beneficial to the Scottish economy. We think the full | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
devolution of income tax would and that would assist many of the most | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
small businesses in Scotland which are not part of the corporation tax | :55:33. | :55:40. | |
regime in any event. One of the commentators after that exchange we | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
saw between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond said you would think we | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
were in East Germany in the 1970s the way they go on about this. The | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
idea that governments create jobs and they are powers which can be | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
handed over which will transform the economy in Scotland, that is | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
ridiculous, isn't it? Of course they read the relationship between | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
government, the public sector and the private sector. Many of the jobs | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
lost our jobs we're hours have been restricted and he has been cut in | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
the public sector. The government's ability to decide how much money it | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
spends and borrows determined jobs and wages in the public and private | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
sector. It is obvious if what you are saying is spent more public | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
money and give people more jobs in the public sector, that will create | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
jobs. It is the idea that somehow or other the government can have more | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
powers which will create jobs in the private sector, just that is not the | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
way this works? Government decisions, not just investment in | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
industries but government decisions about regulation on industries do | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
affect the ability to create jobs and have quality jobs. For example, | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
there are a great many decisions in relation to the energy industry | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
which are still made at UK level even though they have a very local | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
impact. More renewable energy in public and community levels. That is | :57:22. | :57:30. | |
almost entirely dependent on hand-outs the electricity bills. | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
Most private sector industry does not need subsidies. The call | :57:34. | :57:42. | |
industry does, the oil industry and aviation industry get massive tax | :57:43. | :57:50. | |
breaks. But things not to do with energy, surely it is the general | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
economic environment that creates jobs? Much of it is regulated by the | :57:55. | :58:01. | |
government, the banks is another example. A great many European | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
countries have banks that have a natural investment in the real | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
economy, that is what they do instead of putting it on the casino | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
economy. The ability to ensure the economy functions for the common | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
good, works for people's interests rather than those who suck value out | :58:21. | :58:28. | |
of the economy. What about this idea that it is all about the powers the | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
government has? I do not agree with that. Governments create the | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
environment in which jobs and prosperity can come about. These | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament already have significant | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
powers to do that. If you block to the north-east, Aberdeen, the oil | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
industry, the key issues able raise the about what is holding the | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
industry back is the infrastructure around about Aberdeen, the road | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
network. We lack of housing in the area and the lack of skilled people | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
have. These are three things already within the remix of the Scottish | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
government. Hopefully now we have got the referendum out of the way we | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
can have a focus on the significant decisions that can really affect job | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
opportunities on the ground. Let me ask you about small industries. The | :59:24. | :59:30. | |
rate of business formation has been relatively low for a long time not | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
just computer other parts of the UK but compared to other countries | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
around the world. Who knows, if we voted for independence may that | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
would have changed but it seems a fairly intractable problem and I am | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
not sure there is anything governments can do to address it, do | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
you disagree? One thing we can do is take the burden of paperwork off of | :59:56. | :00:06. | |
small businesses. It is easy for politicians but it is the one thing | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
that I think would make a significant difference. What you are | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
saying cannot be explanation because the paperwork praised by businesses | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
in England is the same. I was not setting it out as something to | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
change particularly in Scotland but the way people have to set up small | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
businesses they identify that as the biggest impediment. I think we have | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
maybe a lot of progress in Scotland in promoting a more entrepreneurial | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
culture in Scotland and we have to do that whether independent or not. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Good afternoon. On the first day of the | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
UK Conservative Party conference, the Prime Minister has repeated his | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
pledge to deliver more devolution. Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
Show, David Cameron replied "Yes" FOUR times after he was asked | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
if he would stick to the cross-party vow made before the vote. | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
The SNP say their post-referendum surge in party membership shows | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
people are putting their trust in THEM to hold Westminster to | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
its promise of new powers. A cyclist has been seriously injured | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
in a hit and run collision in Stirlingshire. | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
The 47-year-old man was on the Kippen to Fintry road yesterday | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
afternoon when he was hit by a van. It failed to stop. | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
Police are now appealing for witnesses. | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
Andy Murray has halted the 15-month title drought that had | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
become a real worry after engineering a spectacular turnaround | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
in the Shenzhen Open final. The Scot faced four match points | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in a second-set tie-break but saved them with some of | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
his best tennis on his way to a 5-7 7-6 6-1 victory over Tommy Robredo. | :01:51. | :02:00. | |
Let's look at the weather now, here's Gillian. | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
Hello. A load of dry weather to come across the country this afternoon | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
but a good deal of cloud and not much brightness. A band of showery | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
rain mainly affecting Argyll and spreading into Perthshire and | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
Speyside. A few bright spells across the south, perhaps the best or the | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Northern Isles and far north of the mainland. Mainly like winds will see | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
things feel cool. That's all for now, back to Gordon. | :02:32. | :02:41. | |
The Conservative party conference gets underway at | :02:42. | :02:42. | |
Birmingham International Conference Centre today. | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
Yesterday brought only bad news, with the defection of Mark Reckless | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
to UKIP, and the sudden resignation of Brooks Newmark, minister | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
for Civil Society, following his involvement in a sexting scandal. | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
The double disaster is an unwelcome distraction for the | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
party, as David Cameron tries to seize the initiative with further | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
reform to the benefits system.I'm joined now by our | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
Westminster Correspondent, David Porter, who's at the International | :03:04. | :03:04. | |
Conference Centre in Birmingham. David Mandel has just assured has he | :03:05. | :03:19. | |
is not about to defect to UKIP so you can take the glad tidings to the | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
delegates. What is the feeling there about these defections? I think they | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
think if this is how you want to get publicity for a party conference | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
eight months before a general election this is probably not the | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
way to do it. The headlines today are all about one who is reckless by | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
name and the other reckless by nature. Mark reckless defected to | :03:48. | :03:56. | |
UKIP and the other who resigned after a text message row and | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
allegations about his private life. You talk to representatives here and | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
those who followed the Tory party quite closely and they think there | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
might be others who could be considering this. They could either | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
do it this week at the conference, just see for instance on Wednesday | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
morning ahead of David Cameron's speech, think of the adoptions. | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Order as many people think at the turn of the year when the Tory high | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
command will think they have got over this. That would cause huge | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
damage as well. It is not the way any party wants to generate | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
headlines. I think what they will now be trying to do is hope they can | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
draw a line under it and start the conference and talk about policies. | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
There must be a certain sense of anger. It is one thing for people to | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
say I have changed my mind and I'm disillusioned with my party. This | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
looks like it has been deliberately targeted to cause the maximum amount | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
of damage to David Cameron and his heartache. -- party. I am sure if | :05:13. | :05:31. | |
Mark Reckless were to walk along here, many representatives would | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
quite happily shoved him in the canal. They have had assurances from | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Mark Reckless that he would stay in the party and this can only damage | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
the Conservatives. It is what we are all talking about at the moment and | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
the Conservatives feel that after Labour had a downbeat conference | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
last week, they have the opportunity with the economy improving to get | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
some of the messages all that they wanted to. They are now having to | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
fight this and try to get this out of the way before getting the | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
message across. We shall have to leave it there. You look at death, I | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
do not know of is a medical going on, but you'll do that you're | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
standing on the canal! Thank you. I like to think I can walk on water | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
but unfortunately I cannot. Now funny look at what is coming up. | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
I am joined by Alex Massie and Isobel Lindsay. Let's talk a little | :06:33. | :06:49. | |
bit about the political landscape. Opportunity for the Tories? David | :06:50. | :06:59. | |
Mandel seemed chipper. The people defecting to UKIP are sort of cancer | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
at the heart of the Tory party and nobody thinks he has that sort of | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
problem for the Conservatives. The thing for the Tories in Scotland, do | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
you measure their progress and shield of the vote or numbers seats. | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
It seems to be possible that Tories will increase their vote by two or | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
three points without dramatically increasing the number of seats. The | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
party leadership says it is seats not share of the vote and by that | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
standard that will be difficult to see progress. Presumably what they | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
are thinking is hang on a minute, we have just had this referendum and | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
everyone is saying Labour is in crisis but there's a problem the | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
SNP, because in the heartland areas, there was heavy voting against | :07:51. | :07:59. | |
independence. If I were a Tory strategist, given these are former | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Tory seats... The there's an opportunity and as you note the SNP | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
heartlands are lapsed Tory areas. Never underestimate the ability of | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
the Conservatives not to take advantage of it? It remains a | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
branding issues so when you see that turnout matters as well, and the | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
people who voted most decisively in favour of yes was the people who | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
came of age politically during the Thatcher years. That remains a | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
problem for the Conservatives. Tory ideas are much more popular in | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Scotland but I am not sure it will necessarily be as dramatic a | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
unification of these things as they would like to think. I know you | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
cannot speak for the SNP but I am curious as to what you make of the | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
situation in the West of Scotland? Some areas like Glasgow voted yes | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
but again that does not necessarily translate into a vote for the SNP in | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
a general election, or does it? I think all bets are off. The only | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
historical situation I can compare this to is probably 1967 after the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
Hamilton by-election where you had a huge increase in SNP membership. | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
Immediately after that, I got elected for Dalmarnock in the city | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
council elections but there was major gains across Labour seats. Of | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
course, things went down, came up, went down, but it was a game changer | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
in that period. I think this could very well be a game changer and that | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
is going to be fascinating to see the general election campaign in | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
Scotland because I think it is wide open. Everyone was assuming as usual | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
it is a choice between Tory and Labour at Westminster so we have to | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
vote labour whether we want to or not, but if the SNP can tell the | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
story, if the narrative could provide a big block of SNP and | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
greens, they could hold the balance of power at Westminster. Radical | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
change of subject. Iraq and Syria. Are we now involved in the long-term | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
effort? William Hague was saying there may be a return to the House | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
of Commons to ask for permission to take military action in this area -- | :10:30. | :10:40. | |
in Syria with no endgame. You cannot have an endgame until the end of the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
game by definition and we do not know how or when that will be the | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
case. There is a lot of nonsense being talked as though Britain is | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
going to war in Iraq for the third time. This is a of half a dozen | :10:53. | :11:00. | |
fighter jets, it is a police action from the year designed to assist the | :11:01. | :11:13. | |
Iraqi forces combating ISIS. We are only involved in one part and it is | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
important to date in a sense of perspective about the depth and | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
longevity of British importance. There's a massive international | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
effort and you can see contributions from the and Belgium. -- the | :11:25. | :11:35. | |
Netherlands. There's a general recognition that ISIS a threat not | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
just to the legion but in terms of the philosophy, the wider world. | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
What do you make of this? Everything we have done in the Middle East and | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
North Africa over the last half decade has been disaster after | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
disaster. We have shown ourselves to be so ignorant and unaware of all | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
the tensions. I actually was not opposed initially to the US, UN | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
approved, of the initial air strikes in Libya which were supposed to just | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
protect against Colonel Gaddafi's forces. And then what happened? | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
America, France and the UK to get us an opportunity to bomb the place to | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
create regime change and we are in a situation now where we have had to | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
withdraw troops. If you were initially in favour of the reasons | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
given, presumably you are in favour of the argument that this is a | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
police action. That they are people, refugees in danger of being | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
massacred by these Islamic state militants. Even if the only effect | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
of a bombing campaign is within a mile to stop them advancing and | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
killing these people, limited though that is, is it not worthwhile? One, | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
I don't think it will work, but to, let's remember Syria. Are you saying | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
the Assad regime has been less destructive than ISIS? It has killed | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
many many more people. What we are doing now is propping him up. We had | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
any situation with no simple answer but what I would say is why are we | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
in there along with Saudi Arabia, which has been financing the | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
jihadist and encouraging them and now they are out of control and they | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
are not taking the lead, let them take the lead. We will have to leave | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
it there. Thank you both very much indeed. That's all from us this | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
week, back at the same time next week, until then, from all of, | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
goodbye. | :13:49. | :13:53. |