03/07/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/07/2016

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Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

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after a Leave vote in the referendum.

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Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

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to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

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He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

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When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland.

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After a week when the Conservatives drew the long knives on each other

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and all the parties here launched volleys at them, we'll ask Ruth

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And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

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who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

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them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

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Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

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So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

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candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

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Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

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who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

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This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

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We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

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but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

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business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

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It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

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competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

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upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

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establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

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once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

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two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

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is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

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the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

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this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

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place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

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candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

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ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

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Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

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country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

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should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

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taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

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to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

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commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

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is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

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and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

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Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

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to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

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Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

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consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

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that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

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Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

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think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

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have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

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he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

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ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

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with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

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most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

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honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

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from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

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moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

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Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

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about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

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Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

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last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

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not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

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narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

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in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

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different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

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bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

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Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

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schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

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out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

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from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

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She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

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that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

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competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

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That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

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trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

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with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

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question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

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ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

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with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

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impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

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herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

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events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

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Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

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into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

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the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

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That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

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Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

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country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

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or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

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dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

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Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

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that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

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on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

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serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

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two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

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could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

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can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

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anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

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ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

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others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

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presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

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you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

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particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

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movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

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will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

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side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

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Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

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contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

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Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

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Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

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If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

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we must fully implement the instruction given to us

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for membership of the single market

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if it entails the movement of people.

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Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

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Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

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to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

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result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

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I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

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referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

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have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

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netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

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Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

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this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

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have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

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than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

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perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

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extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

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serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

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you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

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Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

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oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

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will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

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because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

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a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

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important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

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three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

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Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

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operates. We are now seeing the road operates. We are now seeing the road

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ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

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you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

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between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

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a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

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Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

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Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

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Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

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detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

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crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

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commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

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have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

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about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

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50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

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we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

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want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

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prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

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that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

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President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

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expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

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Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

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don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

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That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

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Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

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way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

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there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

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than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

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but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

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in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

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had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

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quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

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the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

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restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

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restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

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direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

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her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

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accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

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this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

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between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

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Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

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Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

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Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

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Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

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very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

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the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

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compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

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government. What's most important quality for

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the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

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They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

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the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

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is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

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the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

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If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

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take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

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Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

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Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

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to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

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but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

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one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

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Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

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known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

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tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

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emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

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overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

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among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

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country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

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the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

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would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

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be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

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think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

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party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

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mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

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it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

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days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

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has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

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Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

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the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

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with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

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expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

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Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

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I think people may look back on this week as the week

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when the Labour Party committed suicide.

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He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

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The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

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sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

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he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

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ahead of this EU referendum debate.

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and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

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in internal manoeuvring at this time.

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In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

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Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

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at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

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on the eve of a no-confidence vote

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his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

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It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

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where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

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"I like you, you've always been my friend.

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I appreciate what you've tried to do,

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but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

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With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

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He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

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And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

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his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

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I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

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and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

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The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:19:59.:20:01.

They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:02.:20:05.

They are interested in the Falklands.

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They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

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But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:13.:20:14.

of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:15.:20:21.

On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

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the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

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Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

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Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

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I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

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It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

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On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:20:57.:21:00.

Are you going to stand for the leadership?

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I'll be saying something later today.

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It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

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We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

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four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

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have gone into his office and are trying

:21:20.:21:20.

As it happened, they weren't invited in.

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Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

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and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:32.:21:33.

retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:34.:21:40.

no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:41.:21:49.

We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:50.:21:53.

a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

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the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

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He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:21:59.:22:00.

a new generation of politicians to come forward.

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This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

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who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

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And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

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These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:17.:22:21.

You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:22.:22:24.

Is that usurping traditional party structures?

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The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

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basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

:22:33.:22:35.

it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:36.:22:38.

If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

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than have soundbites and a polished media performance

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It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

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They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

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With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

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over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:02.:23:06.

But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

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Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:09.:23:11.

Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:12.:23:19.

still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:20.:23:25.

Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:26.:23:34.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:35.:23:37.

to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

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How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:41.:23:49.

He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:50.:23:55.

MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:23:56.:23:58.

the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:23:59.:24:02.

Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:03.:24:06.

actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:07.:24:11.

that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:12.:24:15.

but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

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just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:20.:24:25.

well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

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we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:32.:24:36.

seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:37.:24:40.

saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:41.:24:46.

well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:47.:24:50.

who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:51.:24:56.

interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:24:57.:25:01.

needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:02.:25:07.

seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:08.:25:11.

problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:12.:25:18.

stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:19.:25:23.

issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:24.:25:29.

country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:30.:25:33.

you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:34.:25:37.

Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:38.:25:41.

the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:42.:25:45.

principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:46.:25:53.

Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:54.:25:56.

I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:25:57.:26:01.

The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:02.:26:07.

against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

:26:08.:26:15.

To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:16.:26:18.

members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:19.:26:24.

with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:25.:26:28.

membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:29.:26:38.

responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:39.:26:43.

mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:44.:26:49.

suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:50.:26:55.

we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:26:56.:27:00.

both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

:27:01.:27:05.

legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:06.:27:08.

continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:09.:27:17.

about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:18.:27:24.

is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:25.:27:28.

negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:29.:27:33.

Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:34.:27:37.

has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:38.:27:43.

do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:44.:27:51.

in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:52.:27:55.

Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:27:56.:28:02.

happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:03.:28:08.

credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:09.:28:14.

country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:15.:28:20.

falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:21.:28:24.

negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:25.:28:28.

to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:29.:28:32.

at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:33.:28:37.

credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

:28:38.:28:41.

squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:42.:28:47.

politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:48.:28:51.

contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:52.:28:56.

cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:28:57.:29:01.

a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:02.:29:06.

either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:07.:29:14.

That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:15.:29:20.

agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:21.:29:27.

don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:28.:29:33.

on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:34.:29:37.

led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:38.:29:41.

collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:42.:29:46.

where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:47.:29:51.

there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:52.:29:54.

a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:29:55.:30:01.

I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:02.:30:11.

of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:12.:30:15.

Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:16.:30:18.

candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:19.:30:23.

only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:24.:30:28.

interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:29.:30:32.

motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:33.:30:36.

didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:37.:30:40.

keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:41.:30:44.

problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:45.:30:48.

that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:49.:30:53.

your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:54.:30:57.

certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:30:58.:31:02.

not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:03.:31:09.

electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:10.:31:12.

look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:13.:31:20.

like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:21.:31:24.

both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:25.:31:36.

seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

:31:37.:31:41.

those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:42.:31:44.

want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:45.:31:48.

destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:49.:31:53.

rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:54.:31:58.

in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:31:59.:32:00.

with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:01.:32:04.

talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:05.:32:10.

while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:11.:32:15.

When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:16.:32:18.

end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:19.:32:24.

I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:25.:32:28.

Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:29.:32:29.

times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:30.:32:33.

the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:34.:32:35.

Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:36.:32:36.

was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:37.:32:39.

to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:40.:32:41.

part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:42.:32:45.

has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:46.:32:49.

attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:50.:32:57.

of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:32:58.:33:03.

he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:04.:33:08.

from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:09.:33:24.

Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:25.:33:29.

seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:30.:33:34.

to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:35.:33:37.

position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:38.:33:41.

of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:42.:33:46.

leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:47.:33:51.

opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:52.:33:57.

more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:33:58.:33:59.

The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:00.:34:07.

would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:08.:34:14.

the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

:34:15.:34:18.

want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:19.:34:22.

the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:23.:34:26.

shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:27.:34:30.

go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:31.:34:33.

only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:34.:34:39.

happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:40.:34:43.

means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:44.:34:48.

why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:49.:34:51.

from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:52.:34:55.

much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:34:56.:35:04.

incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:05.:35:07.

will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:08.:35:10.

for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:11.:35:15.

your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:16.:35:18.

same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:19.:35:25.

be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:26.:35:29.

democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:30.:35:36.

Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:37.:35:40.

membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:41.:35:48.

to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:49.:35:53.

Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:54.:35:56.

cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:35:57.:36:01.

but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:02.:36:06.

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:07.:36:10.

put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:11.:36:15.

Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

:36:16.:36:21.

position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:22.:36:26.

have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:27.:36:30.

writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:31.:36:35.

go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:36.:36:38.

seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:39.:36:41.

appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:42.:36:44.

and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:45.:36:51.

logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:36:52.:36:59.

wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:00.:37:05.

other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:06.:37:08.

Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:09.:37:13.

motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:14.:37:17.

are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:18.:37:21.

standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:22.:37:25.

that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:26.:37:31.

are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:32.:37:38.

am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:39.:37:42.

broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:43.:37:48.

recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:49.:37:52.

further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:53.:37:55.

on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:37:56.:38:00.

conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:01.:38:05.

is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:06.:38:12.

can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:13.:38:15.

the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:16.:38:18.

the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:19.:38:22.

might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:23.:38:25.

which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:26.:38:29.

were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:30.:38:33.

thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:34.:38:38.

ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:39.:38:40.

way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:41.:38:47.

need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:48.:38:51.

if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:38:52.:38:58.

happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:38:59.:39:03.

will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:04.:39:06.

appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:07.:39:09.

honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:10.:39:14.

the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:15.:39:17.

other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:18.:39:24.

is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:25.:39:29.

decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:30.:39:35.

he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:36.:39:42.

happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:43.:39:46.

Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:47.:39:51.

think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:52.:39:55.

my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:39:56.:39:58.

matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:39:59.:40:02.

week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:03.:40:06.

how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:07.:40:11.

nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:12.:40:15.

possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:16.:40:21.

democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:22.:40:24.

unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:25.:40:29.

change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:30.:40:31.

is what I still believe in. But the had to change the government. That

:40:32.:40:35.

leader of the Labour Party has to convince voters that we have a

:40:36.:40:38.

compelling vision for the future of this country. And Jeremy is unable

:40:39.:40:44.

to do that. Many of his policies, I would support. I want us to change

:40:45.:40:48.

the language around public expenditure and the public sector.

:40:49.:40:56.

Many parts of the country feel no elected and there are angry people

:40:57.:41:01.

who want to vote Labour, but are not convinced -- they feel neglected. As

:41:02.:41:05.

things stand, even with chaos in the governing party, you would need a

:41:06.:41:12.

miracle to win in 2020. I believe in miracles. And the most important

:41:13.:41:19.

miracle is that Jeremy can break the logjam. You still don't want to hit

:41:20.:41:27.

Ed Miliband smack you have changed your mind on that. I don't. I wish

:41:28.:41:34.

the Labour Party were not where they are, because I can do nothing for

:41:35.:41:39.

the Rhondda. May your God go with you.

:41:40.:41:49.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:41:50.:41:50.

Ruth Davidson supported Remain and David Cameron.

:41:51.:41:56.

After the vote in favour of Brexit and the PM's resignation,

:41:57.:41:58.

we'll be asking if she has any influence left,

:41:59.:42:01.

Labour MPs stage a coup against Jeremy Corbyn.

:42:02.:42:05.

We'll ask former First Minister Henry McLeish about the party's

:42:06.:42:07.

future and about the prospect of a second independence referendum

:42:08.:42:10.

The EU has extended sanctions on Russia.

:42:11.:42:16.

We'll be speaking to the Ukrainian ambassador paying her first

:42:17.:42:20.

You could see the travails of the Conservative government

:42:21.:42:27.

at Westminster as entirely self-inflicted, after

:42:28.:42:30.

David Cameron's attempt to buy off Eurosceptics in his party

:42:31.:42:34.

by offering them a referendum he expected to win.

:42:35.:42:37.

Or you could see it as an honourable man keeping the pledge he made

:42:38.:42:40.

and made for almost unbelievably compelling politics.

:42:41.:42:48.

We'll ask the Tory leader in Scotland what's going on,

:42:49.:42:50.

and what it all means north of the border, in a moment.

:42:51.:42:53.

No stereotypes, obviously, but perhaps it is true that if you want

:42:54.:43:05.

to hear the voice of one important section of Conservative bursting in

:43:06.:43:09.

Scotland, the Scottish game pair is as good a place to go as any. So

:43:10.:43:18.

what are people here think of the state of the Tory party? I think Mr

:43:19.:43:23.

Cameron made a mistake in having the referendum. And I am sorry to see

:43:24.:43:31.

him go. I think he's stepped down a little bit too quickly. He said he

:43:32.:43:37.

was going to do it, he did it. It was unfortunate that there was a

:43:38.:43:42.

break-up in the party. I think the result has been unfortunate, it has

:43:43.:43:46.

backfired on him. I just think it is awful, a complete mess. What is the

:43:47.:43:51.

answer to the mess? I don't know what the answer is. I suspect we

:43:52.:43:57.

will see the Conservative Party in Scotland disowning this Conservative

:43:58.:44:00.

Party in England and trying to plough its own furrow. No surprise

:44:01.:44:07.

perhaps that that is a step too far for the Scottish Secretary. The

:44:08.:44:09.

Conservatives in Scotland have acknowledged that Scotland voted for

:44:10.:44:16.

the UK to remain in the EU. We want to work with the Scottish Government

:44:17.:44:19.

and with others to get the best possible deal for Scotland from the

:44:20.:44:26.

EU negotiations. What we do not accept, and what we do not agree, is

:44:27.:44:30.

that independence is back on the table as part of these discussions.

:44:31.:44:35.

But Scotland voted very differently from the rest of the UK. Does the

:44:36.:44:40.

Conservative Party in Scotland need to acknowledge that, or does the

:44:41.:44:43.

fact that it was a UK wide referendum mean they can ignore that

:44:44.:44:49.

nuance? We have to do both. It was a UK wide election, the sovereign

:44:50.:44:54.

parliament is Westminster in this instance. Ruth Davidson has been

:44:55.:44:57.

exceptionally clear on what she said about the Scottish angle on that.

:44:58.:45:01.

The vast majority of people in Scotland want to seek stability and

:45:02.:45:04.

we know from 2014 that they voted to stay in the United kingdom. That is

:45:05.:45:11.

very important. There is no escaping the challenge in all of this. The

:45:12.:45:16.

challenge for the Conservative Party for defining its identity. If you

:45:17.:45:19.

were to cut me or cut any conservative in Scotland, we would

:45:20.:45:24.

lead red, white and blue. We want to see Scotland remain a strong part of

:45:25.:45:30.

the UK, we believe that overwhelmingly is in Scotland's

:45:31.:45:34.

interests. So we reject any talk of a second independence referendum at

:45:35.:45:38.

this stage. We have been through two bitter and divisive referendum

:45:39.:45:42.

campaigns in the last two years, the last thing we need is yet another

:45:43.:45:45.

referendum campaign adding to that uncertainty. When he launched his

:45:46.:45:50.

unsuccessful bid to lead the Scottish Conservatives five years

:45:51.:45:54.

ago, he did so arguing they needed to set up a new party with a

:45:55.:45:58.

distinct Scottish identity to get rid of the toxic baggage of the

:45:59.:46:02.

past. Is it time to revisit that debate? I think we are already going

:46:03.:46:12.

down that road, and a Ruth Davidson's leadership will stop --

:46:13.:46:18.

under her leadership. She has been championing the devolution of tax

:46:19.:46:21.

power to Scotland, which has been delivered, she has not been afraid

:46:22.:46:24.

to have the Scottish Conservative Party taking a different view on

:46:25.:46:29.

reserved matters than the UK Conservative Party, for example on

:46:30.:46:32.

issues such as tax credits. Already we are developing a more distinct

:46:33.:46:40.

Scottish Conservative voice. If the Scottish Conservative Party really

:46:41.:46:42.

saying growing apart from the union is the way to defend the union?

:46:43.:46:46.

Perhaps that does not matter if they are pursuing the same objective.

:46:47.:46:48.

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth

:46:49.:46:49.

Who do you fancy for leader of your party? I am in are unique leadership

:46:50.:47:11.

position, so while the process goes through, I will hold my hand until

:47:12.:47:15.

we get to this final two, that is how it works in terms of the

:47:16.:47:19.

processes of the party. Everyone says you like Stephen Crabb. I like

:47:20.:47:22.

a lot of people within the Conservative Party, I am a

:47:23.:47:29.

a lot of people within the Conservative. Andrea Leadsom has

:47:30.:47:35.

targeted -- argued that the next Prime Minister has to be a Brexit

:47:36.:47:41.

supporter, she has a point, doesn't she? When you are talking

:47:42.:47:46.

supporter, she has a point, doesn't these decisions, you need the best

:47:47.:47:50.

person for the job. That is not decided on one policy position, that

:47:51.:47:53.

is sided on several character qualities, moral courage, clear

:47:54.:47:58.

thinking, decision-making, that is what leadership is all about. That

:47:59.:48:02.

has got not anything to do with how you stand on one policy. It is about

:48:03.:48:06.

basic credibility. How could you have someone who has advocated

:48:07.:48:10.

remaining in the EU leading Britain into the next phase which is getting

:48:11.:48:14.

out of the European Union? Because no matter who you are in politics,

:48:15.:48:18.

or who you represent, you are always a Democrat and you believe in

:48:19.:48:22.

incrementing the will of the people. If it is a direct the boxy look

:48:23.:48:32.

referendum, that is clear, 17 million people voted to come out of

:48:33.:48:37.

the EU. The future planning this has to implement that. What you have to

:48:38.:48:41.

do is have the person who is best equipped to make the best deal to

:48:42.:48:45.

come out of the end of that, someone who can go toe to toe with Angela

:48:46.:48:48.

Merkel and not blink. Apart from the result, everyone thought you were

:48:49.:48:53.

rather good in the referendum. He was seen as a bit of a darling of

:48:54.:48:58.

the Conservative Party. -- you were seen as a bit of a darling. I worked

:48:59.:49:03.

hard for what I believed in. You could have an important influence in

:49:04.:49:06.

Scotland in coming up with something that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:07.:49:08.

given all this talk about second that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:09.:49:12.

referendums for independence. What will you be saying to your

:49:13.:49:15.

colleagues in London? I have already had conversations with a number of

:49:16.:49:19.

runners and riders that have put their hat into the ring for Prime

:49:20.:49:21.

Minister. I will be working very closely with the next Prime Minister

:49:22.:49:29.

in the way that I have always had professional relationships with

:49:30.:49:31.

David Cameron's Prime Minister. There is a big question now over

:49:32.:49:35.

what is right for the UK and Scotland. I was devastated on Friday

:49:36.:49:40.

morning. I campaigned hard in this referendum, campaigning to remain. I

:49:41.:49:43.

could not persuade 17 million people, they disagreed with me. What

:49:44.:49:47.

I need to do is make sure that Scotland has, one of the reason I

:49:48.:49:53.

campaigned for Remain is I wanted Scotland's witnesses and companies

:49:54.:50:00.

to be part of a wider free trade area in the UK and the EU. I need to

:50:01.:50:04.

chart a course going forward to stay in both of these so we have the best

:50:05.:50:08.

opportunities for our people. So you would like to stay in the single

:50:09.:50:13.

market? I would, yes. Even if the consequence is maintaining free

:50:14.:50:18.

movement of Labour? Yes. Do you think whoever becomes a leader, you

:50:19.:50:23.

do not want to say who you favour, could possibly sell that to people

:50:24.:50:28.

who have voted Leave? The people who have voted Leave will feel utterly

:50:29.:50:32.

betrayed by that and they would have a point. The problem that we have

:50:33.:50:35.

with the league campaign, this is one of the points I made repeatedly

:50:36.:50:40.

in the -- in the Leave campaign, this is one of the points I made

:50:41.:50:43.

repeatedly, there was no cohesive plan being made by them. They did

:50:44.:50:48.

not tell us what Leave meant. I understand that but the fact remains

:50:49.:50:53.

that immigration is a huge issue. If nothing is done about that, there

:50:54.:50:56.

will be wholesale defections from your party kit Ukip. First of all, I

:50:57.:51:05.

will agree that the Leave Bromley and I think shamefully pursued an

:51:06.:51:10.

will agree that the Leave Bromley anti-immigration agenda, I fought

:51:11.:51:14.

against that pretty hard. I have always stated that I wanted to stay

:51:15.:51:18.

part of the single market, that is what I want for Scotland. We are

:51:19.:51:26.

being part of the UK single market and that is four times more

:51:27.:51:29.

important. We want to be part of both. But putting this Scottish

:51:30.:51:37.

case, would you like to be, or would you expect to be, part of some

:51:38.:51:42.

British government team that is negotiating with the European Union?

:51:43.:51:48.

To be, if you like, the Conservative Party's voice of Scotland? I think

:51:49.:51:50.

what you need in terms of the voice of Scotland is the Scottish

:51:51.:51:54.

Government to be part of it. I have said repeatedly that we want the

:51:55.:51:59.

First Minister to play her part. I will be working closely with

:52:00.:52:01.

colleagues but the important thing is that the Guild administration --

:52:02.:52:05.

the devolved administration are intimately involved in the

:52:06.:52:10.

transition team, and also the regional assemblies, so I think the

:52:11.:52:13.

London mayor, I worked closely with him in the preparation with that

:52:14.:52:17.

debate and I have seen the cut of his jib and he is an incredibly

:52:18.:52:21.

effective and impressive individual who wants to be the voice of his

:52:22.:52:25.

city, he should be part of that negotiation team to. One thing they

:52:26.:52:31.

will ask your advice on is if the Scottish Government does, as the

:52:32.:52:35.

indications are fairly clear, that they may well at some point, call

:52:36.:52:41.

another independence referendum, it is technically in the power of the

:52:42.:52:48.

Dutch government to say no. When, -- of the British government to say

:52:49.:52:49.

Dutch government to say no. When, -- When, rather than if, your

:52:50.:52:54.

colleagues in the UK Government say, should we block this all go ahead,

:52:55.:52:58.

what would your advice be? I am a Democrat but it is too premature to

:52:59.:53:04.

talk about it... It is not premature at all. Have you not heard anything

:53:05.:53:07.

the First Minister has been saying? If you would let me finish, I think

:53:08.:53:15.

it is premature to be talking about the referendum, including the First

:53:16.:53:18.

Minister talking about it. I will talk to you in a Mormon... Can I

:53:19.:53:25.

please finish? You said you are a Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:26.:53:27.

want it and the Scottish Government Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:28.:53:30.

calls it, you should not stand in their way? First of all, there is

:53:31.:53:32.

calls it, you should not stand in not a majority of variety in the

:53:33.:53:36.

country for it, we have seen that in recent polls. I have never said it

:53:37.:53:41.

should be denied, and I did not say that last time. I am saying it is

:53:42.:53:48.

important here, this is important, what is so premature about the First

:53:49.:53:54.

Minister, within three and a half hours of votes being counted on

:53:55.:53:58.

Friday morning, standing up saying she was asking government officials

:53:59.:54:01.

to draw up the necessary legislation for a second independence

:54:02.:54:05.

referendum, we do not know what we would be voting on. Because there is

:54:06.:54:09.

not an offer to the UK Government between the UK Government and the

:54:10.:54:13.

EU. She is not suggesting having a referendum right now. She said

:54:14.:54:16.

within three and a half hours and then she repeated it in parliament

:54:17.:54:20.

on Tuesday, that she would have government officials drawing up the

:54:21.:54:23.

legislation for a second referendum. And I think that is premature, but I

:54:24.:54:28.

also think it is wrong and it is destabilising in a period of

:54:29.:54:35.

instability are ready -- already and it ill becomes her. We also do not

:54:36.:54:41.

know what is anything comes out of the talks he has been having on the

:54:42.:54:45.

continent. We do not know what the options of Scotland and it is

:54:46.:54:48.

incredibly premature to go down this road. The her to put her nationalist

:54:49.:54:56.

party viewership on it, that is not good. We know you disagree with

:54:57.:54:59.

Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying if there is a second referendum, you

:55:00.:55:02.

Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying think as a Democrat that Scotland

:55:03.:55:07.

should be able to have it? I would argue as strong as we could but we

:55:08.:55:12.

stayed part of the single market? But he would not oppose it, you

:55:13.:55:16.

would not say the constitutionally the British gunmen should stop it?

:55:17.:55:21.

They should not block it. -- the British government should stop it.

:55:22.:55:26.

Do you see any prospects of Nicola Sturgeon's idea that there seems to

:55:27.:55:30.

be a way that Scotland could stay part of the European Union while

:55:31.:55:35.

Britain leads? Is that a runner in any way? I think it is unlikely, we

:55:36.:55:41.

have already seen a number of significant experts saying it is

:55:42.:55:45.

unlikely. I think there is a real job for the Scottish Government to

:55:46.:55:50.

do, if Nicola wants to speak to people in Brussels, then absolutely

:55:51.:55:54.

fine and dandy. I think she should also be making sure that the

:55:55.:55:57.

significant effort put in from the Scottish gunmen to be part of the UK

:55:58.:55:59.

Government's progressions right now, I want to make sure she's not just

:56:00.:56:04.

in Brussels, she is also in London. If none of this works and there is

:56:05.:56:08.

another independence referendum, obviously the SNP will fight it in a

:56:09.:56:11.

different way. They will say, this has got nothing to do with

:56:12.:56:15.

nationalism, this is a simple. Do you want to be a citizen of the

:56:16.:56:22.

European Union or a citizen of the United Kingdom? And they will say,

:56:23.:56:26.

unfortunately, you cannot be both. There will be many Conservatives in

:56:27.:56:28.

unfortunately, you cannot be both. Scotland who will find that

:56:29.:56:31.

difficult choice to make. I think she will be saying, do you want

:56:32.:56:35.

leave your biggest market or your second biggest market? You want to

:56:36.:56:38.

change currency, a hard border with the neighbour? It would be an

:56:39.:56:44.

utterly different one. I have fought to referendum campaigns now, I have

:56:45.:56:49.

had all of the Project The stuff thrown at me. Nobody now will think

:56:50.:56:55.

that you can have a huge constitutional changes that enormous

:56:56.:56:56.

economic impact. Would you rather be a citizen of the

:56:57.:57:08.

European Union or of the United Kingdom? I am on record as of saying

:57:09.:57:15.

I want to be both. But you cannot be that now. You have been very upfront

:57:16.:57:22.

about seeing a lot of the votes were not died in the wool Tories. You are

:57:23.:57:29.

saying I would like to be part of Scotland and the European Union

:57:30.:57:34.

rather than a little UK but that might not be enough this time.

:57:35.:57:39.

Coming out of the European Union does not mean we are not Europeans

:57:40.:57:44.

any more. We still have to take part in cultural instances. The Erasmus

:57:45.:57:50.

scheme. The financial services can be part of that and you do not need

:57:51.:57:55.

an EU membership to be part of it. A lot of people who voted Tory will

:57:56.:58:02.

say that is not enough. We are being taken out of the European Union

:58:03.:58:06.

against our will. I do not accept all this congruence seek that the

:58:07.:58:11.

SMP have picked on everyone voting remain therefore also wanting to be

:58:12.:58:17.

independent. People work voting on the UK to stay in the EU. The

:58:18.:58:22.

highest votes for remain were also the places where most people voted

:58:23.:58:28.

against independence so there is no congruence eh. It is wrong of the

:58:29.:58:31.

First Minister to say she takes out her. And what word a referendum

:58:32.:58:37.

result last week while those abusing a referendum results two years ago.

:58:38.:58:42.

We will have to leave it there. Shadow cabinet members are said

:58:43.:58:46.

to be drawing up plans to encourage The MPs want to broker a compromise

:58:47.:58:49.

that would preserve some of the Labour leader's key policies

:58:50.:58:53.

if he quit. Here, Kezia Dugdale called

:58:54.:58:55.

for Mr Corbyn to step aside while her deputy,

:58:56.:58:57.

Alex Rowley, supports And Jeremy Corbyn has been forced

:58:58.:58:59.

to appoint a Shadow Scottish Secretary from

:59:00.:59:04.

the north-east of England. Former First Minister and party

:59:05.:59:09.

leader Henry McLeish joins me Henry McLeish, it should Mr Corbyn

:59:10.:59:29.

go? Yes, I think he should. It is a vexed situation, very challenging

:59:30.:59:34.

for the party. The first step is for Jeremy Cooke step aside. I say that

:59:35.:59:39.

thinking about the future of the party. The Labour Party like most

:59:40.:59:44.

parties are the party of rentable and protest. It has to be a party of

:59:45.:59:48.

power. We talk about the mandate of the membership but I am also

:59:49.:59:51.

convinced we have to have some concern about the mandate of the

:59:52.:59:55.

people when we go to election. What I would say is there is some

:59:56.:00:01.

parallel with the Bernie Sanders situation in America. He brought

:00:02.:00:05.

young people into the party and increased numbers generally and came

:00:06.:00:08.

up with issues about anti-austerity and inequality. That is Jeremy's

:00:09.:00:15.

potential legacy. He can leave now knowing the Parliamentary Labour

:00:16.:00:18.

Party evidence to survive must take a different course. I think the

:00:19.:00:23.

distinction between hard left and soft left there are a set of

:00:24.:00:28.

principles people can adhere to and that we know is the way forward.

:00:29.:00:32.

Technically you should not care too much because you appear to have come

:00:33.:00:35.

out this morning in an article you wrote in the Sunday Times saying

:00:36.:00:40.

you're now in favour of independence? I said the European

:00:41.:00:44.

issue has strengthened positively the case for independence and I

:00:45.:00:48.

could thought for independence but I am also concerned for the future of

:00:49.:00:52.

all text. Throughout the Western democracies there are massive

:00:53.:00:57.

changes taking place. What happens in the United Kingdom matter whether

:00:58.:01:01.

we are in order out of the United Kingdom, in order out of Europe. It

:01:02.:01:06.

is important the party resolves its immediate issue and with the data is

:01:07.:01:11.

goodwill in the world I think enemy should now acknowledge. Let me say

:01:12.:01:15.

deaths. If you look at the history of the Labour Party at has also been

:01:16.:01:21.

about a reform not revolution. Issues like momentum, a party with

:01:22.:01:26.

any party, we cannot simply go on with this. Jeremy Cooke take the

:01:27.:01:28.

statesman-like view and carry on knowing that his issues will be

:01:29.:01:35.

carried on. Let's forget about the big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:36.:01:38.

knew saying now you would like to big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:39.:01:42.

campaign for independence? I see no problem in doing that. I have two

:01:43.:01:48.

issues. I was devastated, it was like a believer and on Friday

:01:49.:01:52.

morning when we took that catastrophic decision to leave the

:01:53.:01:56.

European Union. I think that was a tipping point, a defined in point

:01:57.:02:00.

for me. My other frustration is what on earth can the United Kingdom

:02:01.:02:05.

government, London, Labour Party and Conservative Party dude to satisfy

:02:06.:02:09.

the aspirations of Scots which will not lead to an independent Scotland?

:02:10.:02:13.

Currently the performance has been poor. If you take the Labour Party

:02:14.:02:17.

itself, Jeremy Corbyn apart from having a lack of interest in Europe

:02:18.:02:20.

has not said anything encourage Kezia Dugdale to encourage a radical

:02:21.:02:28.

strategy which would help the United Kingdom. The time is right for us to

:02:29.:02:33.

be talking. But we are not ready for independence even if that was a

:02:34.:02:37.

reality. Have got nation-building to do, questions of the currency, the

:02:38.:02:40.

reality. Have got nation-building to fiscal deficit. It has got to reach

:02:41.:02:45.

a wider audience. What Brexit has shown us is when you have the

:02:46.:02:49.

minority voting for one thing you divide the nation and the internets.

:02:50.:02:52.

The last thing we want to look forward to is a legacy of bitterness

:02:53.:02:56.

The last thing we want to look and division in Scotland have been

:02:57.:03:03.

at the decision of one or the other. If some say we read your article in

:03:04.:03:09.

the paper with great interest and what you called the genuine

:03:10.:03:11.

progressive alliance for independence which is much broader

:03:12.:03:17.

than just the SMP, right, we are going to take you at your word, we

:03:18.:03:21.

want to start some movement which will build the board over it a

:03:22.:03:27.

number of years for independence. That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:28.:03:33.

do not think I would want to read That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:34.:03:39.

it. I am not Jeremy, I am Gordon! Jeremy is the leader of the Labour

:03:40.:03:44.

Party! My apologies. I am sure there are better things I could have

:03:45.:03:49.

described it as. My aim is to get the Labour Party be engaged in the

:03:50.:03:52.

constitutional question. There is no point in Libra getting involved

:03:53.:03:56.

unless we can catch the constitutional issue. I want Labour

:03:57.:04:01.

even if they disagree with independence as Ruth Davidson

:04:02.:04:04.

tenting in higher approach, to engage. We have to engage or we are

:04:05.:04:08.

being squeezed out. That would be for me to illustrate the weaknesses

:04:09.:04:11.

of the current approach to independence because there are many.

:04:12.:04:16.

What it does require is, if Scots are to have a choice in the future

:04:17.:04:20.

whether it be in the European Union or in the UK, there also must be an

:04:21.:04:23.

alternative waiting to counter independence. What I am say is that

:04:24.:04:29.

my frustration has got me to a point where I want Labour to succeed in

:04:30.:04:33.

love this. I am not talking about joining independence. Many Labour

:04:34.:04:38.

Party have had to go to the SMP. This is not the preserve of the SMP.

:04:39.:04:44.

It is Scotland's future, the future of all the parties. Let me make one

:04:45.:04:48.

thing clear, it should not be the preserve, a majority issue of the

:04:49.:04:53.

centre peak, the First Minister or nationalism. Vision of Scotland is

:04:54.:04:58.

an issue for all parties which is why I am really concerned that

:04:59.:05:02.

Labour does enter that debate one way or another and helps build the

:05:03.:05:05.

progressive alliance which views the best future for Scotland regardless

:05:06.:05:09.

of whether independence is in fashion right now. I am taking a

:05:10.:05:16.

usable view of all this in the case of Scotland naughty party. Do you

:05:17.:05:21.

intend to remain a member of the Labour Party? There is nowhere else

:05:22.:05:29.

I want to go. I had an evangelical socialist grandfather and socialist

:05:30.:05:36.

grandmother. All the last few years I have agonised, written and battled

:05:37.:05:41.

to see what we is best for Scotland and the United Kingdom. I am going

:05:42.:05:45.

simply nowhere. All I want from my party is to be recognised as an

:05:46.:05:49.

engage, recognised as having a vision and being of domestic. I want

:05:50.:05:55.

the party to do that, not the SMP. I have little truck with nationalism,

:05:56.:06:01.

little truck with the idea of independence that does not have a

:06:02.:06:06.

model like Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Norway. That is the big issue for

:06:07.:06:10.

me. What about the opposite side, why can you make a comeback? Your

:06:11.:06:14.

crimes and misdemeanours are pretty much forgotten about. Look at Mr

:06:15.:06:20.

Lord who ended up back in the government. Why don't you come back

:06:21.:06:24.

and be leader of the Labour Party? You can gather by the colour of my

:06:25.:06:28.

hair I am ageing. My optimism knows no bounds. A bottle of Grecian 2000

:06:29.:06:39.

and you'd be there! My vanity might permit that. I would try. I believe

:06:40.:06:45.

in Kezia Dugdale. She is a young woman with great potential. She

:06:46.:06:48.

needs a party around her who want to engage. The principles on which the

:06:49.:06:54.

party was formed. If I can help I want to do that but it is not for

:06:55.:07:00.

me, it is for hard. OK, we will take that as a heavy hint. Thank you very

:07:01.:07:02.

much, Henry McLeish. Brexit hasn't been the only

:07:03.:07:05.

item on the EU's agenda. Two days before the referendum vote

:07:06.:07:07.

here, member states voted to extend Leaders have tied the repeal

:07:08.:07:10.

of the sanctions to progress on the Ukrainian peace deal,

:07:11.:07:13.

known as the Minsk agreement. That truce called for the handover

:07:14.:07:15.

of control of rebel-held portions of Ukraine's border with Russia

:07:16.:07:18.

to the authorities in Kiev, along with constitutional reforms

:07:19.:07:21.

that would give more autonomy to Russia-affiliated

:07:22.:07:23.

territories in eastern Ukraine. A short while ago I spoke

:07:24.:07:24.

to Natalia Galibarenko, who is the Ukrainian ambassador

:07:25.:07:29.

to the UK, and is in Edinburgh First of all it is worth reminding

:07:30.:07:46.

ourselves that the proximate cause of the demonstrations back in 2014

:07:47.:07:54.

was an accession agreement with the European Union that Ukraine had

:07:55.:07:55.

negotiated and which the then president went back on. Given that,

:07:56.:08:03.

what on earth do people in Ukraine make of what has happened in Britain

:08:04.:08:07.

over the past week? For sure I can tell you there was quite a massive

:08:08.:08:15.

misunderstanding in Ukraine. The amount of people, politicians,

:08:16.:08:18.

diplomats, what actually happened and why? What are the reasons behind

:08:19.:08:24.

the choice? Ukrainians made the choice in favour of the European

:08:25.:08:27.

Union and so that is why there was quite a misunderstanding by the

:08:28.:08:33.

British people decided otherwise. However, you know, there is the

:08:34.:08:37.

beginning of quite a profound analysis in Ukraine of why it

:08:38.:08:41.

happened. The main question now is what the British people will do

:08:42.:08:46.

next. How the new negotiations will go with the European Union. The most

:08:47.:08:51.

important question for us, what will be with the UK protester beat in the

:08:52.:08:56.

no cessation agreement because the UK was also a part of our cessation

:08:57.:09:00.

agreement and the question now is how we will also be negotiating on a

:09:01.:09:06.

bilateral basis what to do with this participation. I think the peak of

:09:07.:09:11.

panic and chaos about what happened is already over also in Ukraine and

:09:12.:09:15.

there is an understanding that despite the choice about the Brexit,

:09:16.:09:22.

the British people and Britain will remain staunch supporters of

:09:23.:09:27.

Ukraine. What are the ambitions of the current government of Mr Potter

:09:28.:09:32.

Schenkel in regards to the European Union? Do you want to go ahead with

:09:33.:09:39.

some sort of association agreement? Is the ambition eventually perhaps

:09:40.:09:43.

to become members of the European Union? In the long run of course we

:09:44.:09:47.

are looking forward to entering the European Union at some point. When

:09:48.:09:51.

the appropriate criteria will be met. Now we are looking

:09:52.:09:56.

realistically at the situation we are not ready to be a member of the

:09:57.:10:00.

European Union and the European Union is definitely not ready to

:10:01.:10:05.

embrace Ukraine at this moment. The priorities of the government now is

:10:06.:10:11.

to reform the country. To make the democracy really sustainable. To

:10:12.:10:15.

revive our economic situation and also the main challenges the

:10:16.:10:19.

security situation while we have military aggression in the east of

:10:20.:10:24.

Ukraine. What about the association agreement that caused all the

:10:25.:10:29.

controversy at the time? Is there an ambition to at least have an

:10:30.:10:33.

association agreement with the European Union or has that been

:10:34.:10:37.

cancelled because of treasure from Mr Hughton and others? You know that

:10:38.:10:45.

the cessation agreement is already underway. To say in a provisional

:10:46.:10:52.

matter. Still the complete notification and they are

:10:53.:10:56.

implemented already 90% of the agreement itself. The problem now is

:10:57.:10:59.

what to do with the Netherlands. After the Dutch referendum there

:11:00.:11:03.

should be some amendment made how the Netherlands will be covered by

:11:04.:11:09.

our cessation agreement and also as I mentioned there will be a question

:11:10.:11:13.

what to do with the UK participation in the agreement.

:11:14.:11:17.

What is the latest situation as far as you are concerned in the rebel

:11:18.:11:29.

areas in the area? Is there any possibility of those areas being

:11:30.:11:33.

fully reintegrated into Ukraine? To be frank with you, the situation is

:11:34.:11:39.

very far from positive. I am afraid that we are not in a position to

:11:40.:11:43.

speak about the forthcoming settlement or the situation on

:11:44.:11:52.

these. The problem there is the actual desire, there is no desire

:11:53.:11:57.

for the Russians to implement security on the ground. Of course,

:11:58.:12:00.

our idea is to reintegrate the areas security on the ground. Of course,

:12:01.:12:06.

into our territory and keep our country united, and also make our

:12:07.:12:15.

area free from intervention from the Russian federation. But this dance

:12:16.:12:22.

area free from intervention from the requires two dancers to play. And

:12:23.:12:27.

what about Crimea, realistically? Has Ukraine accepted that Crimea is

:12:28.:12:35.

unlikely to return? We will never accept that Crimea is annexed by the

:12:36.:12:38.

Russian Federation, and we will be trying to keep the Crimean issue on

:12:39.:12:40.

Russian Federation, and we will be the international agenda. But I

:12:41.:12:44.

Russian Federation, and we will be absolutely agree that factor, we are

:12:45.:12:47.

not controlling the Crimea, and we are more concerned about the human

:12:48.:12:56.

rights violations on the peninsular, and the Ukrainians on the peninsular

:12:57.:13:01.

are limited in their right, for examples they were forced to receive

:13:02.:13:05.

Russian passport and denied Ukrainian citizenship automatically

:13:06.:13:10.

without any permission from the people. But again, the idea is in a

:13:11.:13:19.

peaceful manner, I emphasise, in a peaceful manner to try and attract

:13:20.:13:23.

Crimean people to show that they would be more happy in the United

:13:24.:13:27.

Ukraine, not with Russian Federation. And I assume Ukraine

:13:28.:13:35.

does not accept the legitimacy of the referendum that took Crimea out

:13:36.:13:39.

of Ukraine? Of course, that was absolutely a fake referendum,

:13:40.:13:45.

organised under the guns of Russian military. 90%, or they wanted to

:13:46.:13:54.

depict 102% of voters, that does not matter. The point is that of the

:13:55.:13:59.

international community also does not recognise the Crimean referendum

:14:00.:14:02.

and the General Assembly resolution is speaking about the same. You are

:14:03.:14:07.

addressing the Scottish Parliament tomorrow, I believe, what do you

:14:08.:14:11.

want to tell them? I would be meeting with the members of the

:14:12.:14:17.

Parliament, and the Speaker of the Scottish parliament. I think there

:14:18.:14:21.

are many possibilities for Ukraine and Scotland to develop original

:14:22.:14:30.

cooperation. The crucial thing for Ukraine is reform, devolution of

:14:31.:14:39.

power. So Scotland is a very profound partner in this regard.

:14:40.:14:43.

They can share their experience, how to do this in the best way, with the

:14:44.:14:49.

demolition of power. So on the one hand -- the devolution of power. So

:14:50.:14:53.

on the one hand, if you are getting more rights, people in the local

:14:54.:14:57.

communities receive it but they also receive more responsibility. That is

:14:58.:15:00.

the combination I would like to discuss with my Scottish partner.

:15:01.:15:12.

Thank you for joining us. Next week we will see the first

:15:13.:15:18.

round of voting for the Conservative candidates, the future for Jeremy

:15:19.:15:22.

Corbyn and the publication of the Chilcott Report on Wednesday.

:15:23.:15:25.

Joining me is the political editor at the Courier, Kieran Andrews,

:15:26.:15:27.

and the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire,

:15:28.:15:29.

Do you think Corbin should go? I think he is going to have to. His

:15:30.:15:39.

position is not sustainable any more. He has had over 80% of the

:15:40.:15:46.

Parliamentary Labour Party who has said he should stand down, it is not

:15:47.:15:50.

just that, it is across the UK now. We have got members, councillors

:15:51.:15:52.

just that, it is across the UK now. calling him to go. There is no doubt

:15:53.:15:56.

that both sides feel they are battling the heart and soul of the

:15:57.:16:00.

Labour Party at the moment so I think it will get more messy before

:16:01.:16:05.

it gets better. There has always been this tension in the Labour

:16:06.:16:08.

Party, usually it muddles through, between those who think that the

:16:09.:16:12.

leader is elected by the members and should be accountable to the members

:16:13.:16:16.

of the Labour Party, and others who say, hang on, MPs are elected by

:16:17.:16:20.

millions of people, they have to do have a vote and a say in that and it

:16:21.:16:25.

is more conjugated, but Inc stream times, the division of view is

:16:26.:16:31.

becoming an extreme split. -- in extreme times. Both are members and

:16:32.:16:35.

the MPs have an important role in choosing the leader, but the problem

:16:36.:16:39.

is last year, a number of MPs allow Jeremy Corbyn on the ballot paper

:16:40.:16:46.

but did not support him, so he now has no confidence from the MPs. What

:16:47.:16:55.

would you say to those 250 people -- 250,000 people, I know some people

:16:56.:16:58.

will denigrate them as one click, they have paid their money though,

:16:59.:17:03.

and they have all supported Jeremy Corbyn. They are all going to be

:17:04.:17:10.

ignored. They are not going to be ignored. If he runs again, he will

:17:11.:17:17.

win. I am not sure. He has had a shot at the leadership, and people

:17:18.:17:21.

even who voted for him are now saying, it is not good enough. I

:17:22.:17:25.

think if he was running an efficient operation, the matter his policies,

:17:26.:17:28.

people might give him more of a chance but what we are seeing at the

:17:29.:17:33.

top of the Labour Party is a shambles. What do you make of this?

:17:34.:17:38.

The problem with the Labour rebels who want a clue here, is that they

:17:39.:17:42.

have walked Jeremy Corbyn to the bridge and failed to push him off.

:17:43.:17:46.

There is no alternative, that is not seem to be any sort of plan. It has

:17:47.:17:50.

been one of the worst cases of regicide you could possibly imagine.

:17:51.:17:54.

Regicide where you do not a chilly kill the King. -- you don't kill the

:17:55.:18:01.

king, you just growl. Yes, and there is no challenge to the throne. They

:18:02.:18:06.

are saying, Labour MPs are saying, we will knife you, but they are

:18:07.:18:10.

waving spoons around in the air. There is no challenge, it has been a

:18:11.:18:16.

botched operation so far. It is every bit as shambolic the

:18:17.:18:18.

organisers Jeremy Corbyn's leadership so far. -- shambolic Lee

:18:19.:18:28.

organised. If this is not a clue, there is party that Labour can learn

:18:29.:18:39.

from as it comes to nice stabbing. If you want a good example, Boris

:18:40.:18:43.

Johnson was dispatched by Michael Gove efficiently, swiftly and

:18:44.:18:47.

without any mercy. Stabbed from the front, back, any which way you could

:18:48.:18:53.

imagine. And now the Tories are turning on themselves down

:18:54.:18:57.

Westminster as well, there is not enough corners to brief. Where do

:18:58.:19:02.

you think Michael Gove is left? He was on TV this morning saying he

:19:03.:19:06.

stabbed Boris in the interests of the nation, will not be credible? I

:19:07.:19:11.

don't think so. There is a case that Michael Gove looked at Boris Johnson

:19:12.:19:15.

and thought, here is a man without a plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:16.:19:18.

take him out. But when you step back plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:19.:19:22.

and look at the way he stabbed David Cameron in the back to go and

:19:23.:19:28.

campaign for Leave, he has done the same to Boris Johnson, he does not

:19:29.:19:32.

look like trustworthy politician. What do you make of it, from your

:19:33.:19:36.

depths of your depression? At least you can laugh the Tories. At least

:19:37.:19:41.

they are, they are taking attention away from the Labour Party so that

:19:42.:19:50.

is good. To -- Theresa May is strong candidate and I think it will be

:19:51.:19:53.

difficult for anyone to beat her, it looks like she is running away from

:19:54.:19:57.

it. Assembly who wants to see the Labour Party doing well, I am very

:19:58.:20:00.

pleased that it does not look like Stephen Crabb is doing well. He is

:20:01.:20:04.

somebody who would start to reach into labour support, I think, ...

:20:05.:20:14.

Really? Yes, that working-class vote in the North who voted Leave in the

:20:15.:20:18.

referendum, if you look at his back story. I am happy that he does not

:20:19.:20:22.

appear to be getting too much attention. I think there is a huge

:20:23.:20:26.

question over Michael Gove's character. The Chilcott enquiry, it

:20:27.:20:31.

is almost forgotten, it was such a huge issue but it is going to be

:20:32.:20:37.

when the report comes out. Almost inevitably there will be calls for

:20:38.:20:39.

retribution. Absolutely. It will reignite again and it has fallen by

:20:40.:20:46.

the wayside slightly in light of the madness we have seen last week in

:20:47.:20:50.

British politics. But this will add to it and push again, there has been

:20:51.:20:55.

chat around the Houses of Parliament to it and push again, there has been

:20:56.:20:58.

that Jeremy Corbyn is hanging on just so he can do a bit of knife

:20:59.:21:02.

plunging off his own into Tony Blair when the report comes out. But the

:21:03.:21:09.

problem is, that is very critical Chilcott Report will add to the

:21:10.:21:15.

sense that politicians are all at it, they are all liars. I think the

:21:16.:21:19.

report is very important particularly to people who have lost

:21:20.:21:28.

loved ones or who have sustained injuries, this is a serious piece of

:21:29.:21:32.

work and it is a shame it has taken so long. The question is, is it

:21:33.:21:36.

going to change the way we do foreign policy in the UK, will it

:21:37.:21:38.

make a difference about how the wake we make foreign policy decisions? We

:21:39.:21:43.

will have to see it come out but I do not know if it will have an

:21:44.:21:46.

impact because I think we have already had the impact. Thank you

:21:47.:21:50.

very much. That is all we have time for this week. I will be back next

:21:51.:21:53.

week. Until then, goodbye.

:21:54.:21:55.

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