Browse content similar to 03/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister, | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
after a Leave vote in the referendum. | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
to talk to the media, this is embarassing. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet - | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him? | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland. | :01:07. | :01:07. | |
After a week when the Conservatives drew the long knives on each other | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
and all the parties here launched volleys at them, we'll ask Ruth | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants | :01:14. | :01:25. | |
who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment - | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott. | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two, | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership. | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
This is what we've heard from them so far this morning. | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU, | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50, | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country. | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
and what our principles will be that will guide the exit. | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel. | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom. | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion. | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country. | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go. | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday. | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum, | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
we must fully implement the instruction given to us | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
for membership of the single market | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
if it entails the movement of people. | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal, | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first | :09:31. | :09:47. | |
to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before. | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else. | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in, | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
operates. We are now seeing the road operates. We are now seeing the road | :11:32. | :11:40. | |
ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement. | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market, | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
the things we will have to understand. If we introduce | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
government. What's most important quality for | :14:59. | :15:10. | |
the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience? | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it? | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal, | :16:03. | :16:13. | |
but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12 | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you. | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil, | :17:37. | :17:38. | |
the stand-off continues in the Labour Party | :17:39. | :17:39. | |
with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
I think people may look back on this week as the week | :17:49. | :18:02. | |
when the Labour Party committed suicide. | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader, | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
The Labour Party are being ripped apart... | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, | :18:13. | :18:30. | |
he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
ahead of this EU referendum debate. | :18:33. | :18:34. | |
and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
in internal manoeuvring at this time. | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament. | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us. | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
at a meeting with his party behind closed doors | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
on the eve of a no-confidence vote | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
his battle with his own colleagues worsened. | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
where people were pleading with Jeremy saying, | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
"I like you, you've always been my friend. | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
I appreciate what you've tried to do, | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
but this is tearing the Labour Party apart". | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement. | :19:30. | :19:39. | |
And between takes, a critic of his leadership, | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room. | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker. | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
The whole of the rest of the world is against them. | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands. | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
They are interested in the Falklands. | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
They are interested in a whole range of things like that. | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
But they are not interested and have very little understanding | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
of the processes of Westminster politics. | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit, | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention. | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade. | :20:29. | :20:37. | |
Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum, | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's, | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this, | :20:48. | :20:56. | |
On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
Are you going to stand for the leadership? | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
I'll be saying something later today. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies, | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet, | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
have gone into his office and are trying | :21:20. | :21:20. | |
As it happened, they weren't invited in. | :21:21. | :21:29. | |
Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself. | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged. | :21:41. | :21:49. | |
We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally, | :21:54. | :21:55. | |
the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed | :21:59. | :22:00. | |
a new generation of politicians to come forward. | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
This has given opportunities to people like Barry, | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago, | :22:11. | :22:12. | |
And they're rising to the challenge effectively. | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment. | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
You talked about the movement, rather than the party. | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
Is that usurping traditional party structures? | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine, | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
it is something that engages in the wider community. | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
than have soundbites and a polished media performance | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers. | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon, | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000. | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament. | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet. | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition? | :23:41. | :23:49. | |
He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him, | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that, | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected. | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like... | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his | :26:29. | :26:38. | |
responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking | :27:09. | :27:17. | |
about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is | :27:44. | :27:51. | |
in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have, | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they? | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
led the Labour Party into government, and he won those | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn? | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader | :30:02. | :30:11. | |
of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit | :31:13. | :31:20. | |
like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are | :31:25. | :31:36. | |
seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know. | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know. | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting | :32:29. | :32:29. | |
times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey - | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
the General Secretary of the Unite union, | :32:34. | :32:35. | |
Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn | :32:36. | :32:36. | |
was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
has been a political Undermined, humiliated, | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr | :33:09. | :33:24. | |
Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable. | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the | :34:56. | :35:04. | |
incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party. | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy, | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn. | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
how we could change the country for the better, and they will have | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That | :40:30. | :40:31. | |
is what I still believe in. But the had to change the government. That | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
leader of the Labour Party has to convince voters that we have a | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
compelling vision for the future of this country. And Jeremy is unable | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
to do that. Many of his policies, I would support. I want us to change | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
the language around public expenditure and the public sector. | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
Many parts of the country feel no elected and there are angry people | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
who want to vote Labour, but are not convinced -- they feel neglected. As | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
things stand, even with chaos in the governing party, you would need a | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
miracle to win in 2020. I believe in miracles. And the most important | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
miracle is that Jeremy can break the logjam. You still don't want to hit | :41:20. | :41:27. | |
Ed Miliband smack you have changed your mind on that. I don't. I wish | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
the Labour Party were not where they are, because I can do nothing for | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
the Rhondda. May your God go with you. | :41:40. | :41:49. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :41:50. | :41:50. | |
Ruth Davidson supported Remain and David Cameron. | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
After the vote in favour of Brexit and the PM's resignation, | :41:57. | :41:58. | |
we'll be asking if she has any influence left, | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
Labour MPs stage a coup against Jeremy Corbyn. | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
We'll ask former First Minister Henry McLeish about the party's | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
future and about the prospect of a second independence referendum | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
The EU has extended sanctions on Russia. | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
We'll be speaking to the Ukrainian ambassador paying her first | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
You could see the travails of the Conservative government | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
at Westminster as entirely self-inflicted, after | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
David Cameron's attempt to buy off Eurosceptics in his party | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
by offering them a referendum he expected to win. | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
Or you could see it as an honourable man keeping the pledge he made | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
and made for almost unbelievably compelling politics. | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
We'll ask the Tory leader in Scotland what's going on, | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
and what it all means north of the border, in a moment. | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
No stereotypes, obviously, but perhaps it is true that if you want | :42:54. | :43:05. | |
to hear the voice of one important section of Conservative bursting in | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
Scotland, the Scottish game pair is as good a place to go as any. So | :43:10. | :43:18. | |
what are people here think of the state of the Tory party? I think Mr | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
Cameron made a mistake in having the referendum. And I am sorry to see | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
him go. I think he's stepped down a little bit too quickly. He said he | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
was going to do it, he did it. It was unfortunate that there was a | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
break-up in the party. I think the result has been unfortunate, it has | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
backfired on him. I just think it is awful, a complete mess. What is the | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
answer to the mess? I don't know what the answer is. I suspect we | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
will see the Conservative Party in Scotland disowning this Conservative | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
Party in England and trying to plough its own furrow. No surprise | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
perhaps that that is a step too far for the Scottish Secretary. The | :44:08. | :44:09. | |
Conservatives in Scotland have acknowledged that Scotland voted for | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
the UK to remain in the EU. We want to work with the Scottish Government | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
and with others to get the best possible deal for Scotland from the | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
EU negotiations. What we do not accept, and what we do not agree, is | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
that independence is back on the table as part of these discussions. | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
But Scotland voted very differently from the rest of the UK. Does the | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
Conservative Party in Scotland need to acknowledge that, or does the | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
fact that it was a UK wide referendum mean they can ignore that | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
nuance? We have to do both. It was a UK wide election, the sovereign | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
parliament is Westminster in this instance. Ruth Davidson has been | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
exceptionally clear on what she said about the Scottish angle on that. | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
The vast majority of people in Scotland want to seek stability and | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
we know from 2014 that they voted to stay in the United kingdom. That is | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
very important. There is no escaping the challenge in all of this. The | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
challenge for the Conservative Party for defining its identity. If you | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
were to cut me or cut any conservative in Scotland, we would | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
lead red, white and blue. We want to see Scotland remain a strong part of | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
the UK, we believe that overwhelmingly is in Scotland's | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
interests. So we reject any talk of a second independence referendum at | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
this stage. We have been through two bitter and divisive referendum | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
campaigns in the last two years, the last thing we need is yet another | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
referendum campaign adding to that uncertainty. When he launched his | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
unsuccessful bid to lead the Scottish Conservatives five years | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
ago, he did so arguing they needed to set up a new party with a | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
distinct Scottish identity to get rid of the toxic baggage of the | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
past. Is it time to revisit that debate? I think we are already going | :46:03. | :46:12. | |
down that road, and a Ruth Davidson's leadership will stop -- | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
under her leadership. She has been championing the devolution of tax | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
power to Scotland, which has been delivered, she has not been afraid | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
to have the Scottish Conservative Party taking a different view on | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
reserved matters than the UK Conservative Party, for example on | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
issues such as tax credits. Already we are developing a more distinct | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
Scottish Conservative voice. If the Scottish Conservative Party really | :46:41. | :46:42. | |
saying growing apart from the union is the way to defend the union? | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Perhaps that does not matter if they are pursuing the same objective. | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth | :46:49. | :46:49. | |
Who do you fancy for leader of your party? I am in are unique leadership | :46:50. | :47:11. | |
position, so while the process goes through, I will hold my hand until | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
we get to this final two, that is how it works in terms of the | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
processes of the party. Everyone says you like Stephen Crabb. I like | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
a lot of people within the Conservative Party, I am a | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
a lot of people within the Conservative. Andrea Leadsom has | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
targeted -- argued that the next Prime Minister has to be a Brexit | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
supporter, she has a point, doesn't she? When you are talking | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
supporter, she has a point, doesn't these decisions, you need the best | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
person for the job. That is not decided on one policy position, that | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
is sided on several character qualities, moral courage, clear | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
thinking, decision-making, that is what leadership is all about. That | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
has got not anything to do with how you stand on one policy. It is about | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
basic credibility. How could you have someone who has advocated | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
remaining in the EU leading Britain into the next phase which is getting | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
out of the European Union? Because no matter who you are in politics, | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
or who you represent, you are always a Democrat and you believe in | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
incrementing the will of the people. If it is a direct the boxy look | :48:23. | :48:32. | |
referendum, that is clear, 17 million people voted to come out of | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
the EU. The future planning this has to implement that. What you have to | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
do is have the person who is best equipped to make the best deal to | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
come out of the end of that, someone who can go toe to toe with Angela | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
Merkel and not blink. Apart from the result, everyone thought you were | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
rather good in the referendum. He was seen as a bit of a darling of | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
the Conservative Party. -- you were seen as a bit of a darling. I worked | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
hard for what I believed in. You could have an important influence in | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
Scotland in coming up with something that could keep Scotland in the UK, | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
given all this talk about second that could keep Scotland in the UK, | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
referendums for independence. What will you be saying to your | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
colleagues in London? I have already had conversations with a number of | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
runners and riders that have put their hat into the ring for Prime | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
Minister. I will be working very closely with the next Prime Minister | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
in the way that I have always had professional relationships with | :49:30. | :49:31. | |
David Cameron's Prime Minister. There is a big question now over | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
what is right for the UK and Scotland. I was devastated on Friday | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
morning. I campaigned hard in this referendum, campaigning to remain. I | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
could not persuade 17 million people, they disagreed with me. What | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
I need to do is make sure that Scotland has, one of the reason I | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
campaigned for Remain is I wanted Scotland's witnesses and companies | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
to be part of a wider free trade area in the UK and the EU. I need to | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
chart a course going forward to stay in both of these so we have the best | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
opportunities for our people. So you would like to stay in the single | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
market? I would, yes. Even if the consequence is maintaining free | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
movement of Labour? Yes. Do you think whoever becomes a leader, you | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
do not want to say who you favour, could possibly sell that to people | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
who have voted Leave? The people who have voted Leave will feel utterly | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
betrayed by that and they would have a point. The problem that we have | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
with the league campaign, this is one of the points I made repeatedly | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
in the -- in the Leave campaign, this is one of the points I made | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
repeatedly, there was no cohesive plan being made by them. They did | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
not tell us what Leave meant. I understand that but the fact remains | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
that immigration is a huge issue. If nothing is done about that, there | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
will be wholesale defections from your party kit Ukip. First of all, I | :50:57. | :51:05. | |
will agree that the Leave Bromley and I think shamefully pursued an | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
will agree that the Leave Bromley anti-immigration agenda, I fought | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
against that pretty hard. I have always stated that I wanted to stay | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
part of the single market, that is what I want for Scotland. We are | :51:19. | :51:26. | |
being part of the UK single market and that is four times more | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
important. We want to be part of both. But putting this Scottish | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
case, would you like to be, or would you expect to be, part of some | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
British government team that is negotiating with the European Union? | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
To be, if you like, the Conservative Party's voice of Scotland? I think | :51:49. | :51:50. | |
what you need in terms of the voice of Scotland is the Scottish | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
Government to be part of it. I have said repeatedly that we want the | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
First Minister to play her part. I will be working closely with | :52:00. | :52:01. | |
colleagues but the important thing is that the Guild administration -- | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
the devolved administration are intimately involved in the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
transition team, and also the regional assemblies, so I think the | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
London mayor, I worked closely with him in the preparation with that | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
debate and I have seen the cut of his jib and he is an incredibly | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
effective and impressive individual who wants to be the voice of his | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
city, he should be part of that negotiation team to. One thing they | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
will ask your advice on is if the Scottish Government does, as the | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
indications are fairly clear, that they may well at some point, call | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
another independence referendum, it is technically in the power of the | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
Dutch government to say no. When, -- of the British government to say | :52:49. | :52:49. | |
Dutch government to say no. When, -- When, rather than if, your | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
colleagues in the UK Government say, should we block this all go ahead, | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
what would your advice be? I am a Democrat but it is too premature to | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
talk about it... It is not premature at all. Have you not heard anything | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
the First Minister has been saying? If you would let me finish, I think | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
it is premature to be talking about the referendum, including the First | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
Minister talking about it. I will talk to you in a Mormon... Can I | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
please finish? You said you are a Democrat, would you say that if they | :53:26. | :53:27. | |
want it and the Scottish Government Democrat, would you say that if they | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
calls it, you should not stand in their way? First of all, there is | :53:31. | :53:32. | |
calls it, you should not stand in not a majority of variety in the | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
country for it, we have seen that in recent polls. I have never said it | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
should be denied, and I did not say that last time. I am saying it is | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
important here, this is important, what is so premature about the First | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
Minister, within three and a half hours of votes being counted on | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
Friday morning, standing up saying she was asking government officials | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
to draw up the necessary legislation for a second independence | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
referendum, we do not know what we would be voting on. Because there is | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
not an offer to the UK Government between the UK Government and the | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
EU. She is not suggesting having a referendum right now. She said | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
within three and a half hours and then she repeated it in parliament | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
on Tuesday, that she would have government officials drawing up the | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
legislation for a second referendum. And I think that is premature, but I | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
also think it is wrong and it is destabilising in a period of | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
instability are ready -- already and it ill becomes her. We also do not | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
know what is anything comes out of the talks he has been having on the | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
continent. We do not know what the options of Scotland and it is | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
incredibly premature to go down this road. The her to put her nationalist | :54:49. | :54:56. | |
party viewership on it, that is not good. We know you disagree with | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying if there is a second referendum, you | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying think as a Democrat that Scotland | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
should be able to have it? I would argue as strong as we could but we | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
stayed part of the single market? But he would not oppose it, you | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
would not say the constitutionally the British gunmen should stop it? | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
They should not block it. -- the British government should stop it. | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
Do you see any prospects of Nicola Sturgeon's idea that there seems to | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
be a way that Scotland could stay part of the European Union while | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
Britain leads? Is that a runner in any way? I think it is unlikely, we | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
have already seen a number of significant experts saying it is | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
unlikely. I think there is a real job for the Scottish Government to | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
do, if Nicola wants to speak to people in Brussels, then absolutely | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
fine and dandy. I think she should also be making sure that the | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
significant effort put in from the Scottish gunmen to be part of the UK | :55:58. | :55:59. | |
Government's progressions right now, I want to make sure she's not just | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
in Brussels, she is also in London. If none of this works and there is | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
another independence referendum, obviously the SNP will fight it in a | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
different way. They will say, this has got nothing to do with | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
nationalism, this is a simple. Do you want to be a citizen of the | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
European Union or a citizen of the United Kingdom? And they will say, | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
unfortunately, you cannot be both. There will be many Conservatives in | :56:27. | :56:28. | |
unfortunately, you cannot be both. Scotland who will find that | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
difficult choice to make. I think she will be saying, do you want | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
leave your biggest market or your second biggest market? You want to | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
change currency, a hard border with the neighbour? It would be an | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
utterly different one. I have fought to referendum campaigns now, I have | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
had all of the Project The stuff thrown at me. Nobody now will think | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
that you can have a huge constitutional changes that enormous | :56:56. | :56:56. | |
economic impact. Would you rather be a citizen of the | :56:57. | :57:08. | |
European Union or of the United Kingdom? I am on record as of saying | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
I want to be both. But you cannot be that now. You have been very upfront | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
about seeing a lot of the votes were not died in the wool Tories. You are | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
saying I would like to be part of Scotland and the European Union | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
rather than a little UK but that might not be enough this time. | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
Coming out of the European Union does not mean we are not Europeans | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
any more. We still have to take part in cultural instances. The Erasmus | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
scheme. The financial services can be part of that and you do not need | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
an EU membership to be part of it. A lot of people who voted Tory will | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
say that is not enough. We are being taken out of the European Union | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
against our will. I do not accept all this congruence seek that the | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
SMP have picked on everyone voting remain therefore also wanting to be | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
independent. People work voting on the UK to stay in the EU. The | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
highest votes for remain were also the places where most people voted | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
against independence so there is no congruence eh. It is wrong of the | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
First Minister to say she takes out her. And what word a referendum | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
result last week while those abusing a referendum results two years ago. | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
We will have to leave it there. Shadow cabinet members are said | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
to be drawing up plans to encourage The MPs want to broker a compromise | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
that would preserve some of the Labour leader's key policies | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
if he quit. Here, Kezia Dugdale called | :58:54. | :58:55. | |
for Mr Corbyn to step aside while her deputy, | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
Alex Rowley, supports And Jeremy Corbyn has been forced | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
to appoint a Shadow Scottish Secretary from | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
the north-east of England. Former First Minister and party | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
leader Henry McLeish joins me Henry McLeish, it should Mr Corbyn | :59:10. | :59:29. | |
go? Yes, I think he should. It is a vexed situation, very challenging | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
for the party. The first step is for Jeremy Cooke step aside. I say that | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
thinking about the future of the party. The Labour Party like most | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
parties are the party of rentable and protest. It has to be a party of | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
power. We talk about the mandate of the membership but I am also | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
convinced we have to have some concern about the mandate of the | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
people when we go to election. What I would say is there is some | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
parallel with the Bernie Sanders situation in America. He brought | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
young people into the party and increased numbers generally and came | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
up with issues about anti-austerity and inequality. That is Jeremy's | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
potential legacy. He can leave now knowing the Parliamentary Labour | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
Party evidence to survive must take a different course. I think the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
distinction between hard left and soft left there are a set of | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
principles people can adhere to and that we know is the way forward. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Technically you should not care too much because you appear to have come | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
out this morning in an article you wrote in the Sunday Times saying | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
you're now in favour of independence? I said the European | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
issue has strengthened positively the case for independence and I | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
could thought for independence but I am also concerned for the future of | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
all text. Throughout the Western democracies there are massive | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
changes taking place. What happens in the United Kingdom matter whether | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
we are in order out of the United Kingdom, in order out of Europe. It | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
is important the party resolves its immediate issue and with the data is | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
goodwill in the world I think enemy should now acknowledge. Let me say | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
deaths. If you look at the history of the Labour Party at has also been | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
about a reform not revolution. Issues like momentum, a party with | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
any party, we cannot simply go on with this. Jeremy Cooke take the | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
statesman-like view and carry on knowing that his issues will be | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
carried on. Let's forget about the big issues of the Labour Party, I | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
knew saying now you would like to big issues of the Labour Party, I | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
campaign for independence? I see no problem in doing that. I have two | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
issues. I was devastated, it was like a believer and on Friday | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
morning when we took that catastrophic decision to leave the | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
European Union. I think that was a tipping point, a defined in point | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
for me. My other frustration is what on earth can the United Kingdom | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
government, London, Labour Party and Conservative Party dude to satisfy | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
the aspirations of Scots which will not lead to an independent Scotland? | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Currently the performance has been poor. If you take the Labour Party | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
itself, Jeremy Corbyn apart from having a lack of interest in Europe | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
has not said anything encourage Kezia Dugdale to encourage a radical | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
strategy which would help the United Kingdom. The time is right for us to | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
be talking. But we are not ready for independence even if that was a | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
reality. Have got nation-building to do, questions of the currency, the | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
reality. Have got nation-building to fiscal deficit. It has got to reach | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
a wider audience. What Brexit has shown us is when you have the | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
minority voting for one thing you divide the nation and the internets. | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
The last thing we want to look forward to is a legacy of bitterness | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
The last thing we want to look and division in Scotland have been | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
at the decision of one or the other. If some say we read your article in | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
the paper with great interest and what you called the genuine | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
progressive alliance for independence which is much broader | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
than just the SMP, right, we are going to take you at your word, we | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
want to start some movement which will build the board over it a | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
number of years for independence. That McLeish, will you read say? I | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
do not think I would want to read That McLeish, will you read say? I | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
it. I am not Jeremy, I am Gordon! Jeremy is the leader of the Labour | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
Party! My apologies. I am sure there are better things I could have | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
described it as. My aim is to get the Labour Party be engaged in the | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
constitutional question. There is no point in Libra getting involved | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
unless we can catch the constitutional issue. I want Labour | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
even if they disagree with independence as Ruth Davidson | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
tenting in higher approach, to engage. We have to engage or we are | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
being squeezed out. That would be for me to illustrate the weaknesses | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
of the current approach to independence because there are many. | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
What it does require is, if Scots are to have a choice in the future | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
whether it be in the European Union or in the UK, there also must be an | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
alternative waiting to counter independence. What I am say is that | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
my frustration has got me to a point where I want Labour to succeed in | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
love this. I am not talking about joining independence. Many Labour | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
Party have had to go to the SMP. This is not the preserve of the SMP. | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
It is Scotland's future, the future of all the parties. Let me make one | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
thing clear, it should not be the preserve, a majority issue of the | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
centre peak, the First Minister or nationalism. Vision of Scotland is | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
an issue for all parties which is why I am really concerned that | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Labour does enter that debate one way or another and helps build the | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
progressive alliance which views the best future for Scotland regardless | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
of whether independence is in fashion right now. I am taking a | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
usable view of all this in the case of Scotland naughty party. Do you | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
intend to remain a member of the Labour Party? There is nowhere else | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
I want to go. I had an evangelical socialist grandfather and socialist | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
grandmother. All the last few years I have agonised, written and battled | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
to see what we is best for Scotland and the United Kingdom. I am going | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
simply nowhere. All I want from my party is to be recognised as an | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
engage, recognised as having a vision and being of domestic. I want | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
the party to do that, not the SMP. I have little truck with nationalism, | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
little truck with the idea of independence that does not have a | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
model like Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Norway. That is the big issue for | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
me. What about the opposite side, why can you make a comeback? Your | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
crimes and misdemeanours are pretty much forgotten about. Look at Mr | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
Lord who ended up back in the government. Why don't you come back | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
and be leader of the Labour Party? You can gather by the colour of my | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
hair I am ageing. My optimism knows no bounds. A bottle of Grecian 2000 | :06:29. | :06:39. | |
and you'd be there! My vanity might permit that. I would try. I believe | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
in Kezia Dugdale. She is a young woman with great potential. She | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
needs a party around her who want to engage. The principles on which the | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
party was formed. If I can help I want to do that but it is not for | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
me, it is for hard. OK, we will take that as a heavy hint. Thank you very | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
much, Henry McLeish. Brexit hasn't been the only | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
item on the EU's agenda. Two days before the referendum vote | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
here, member states voted to extend Leaders have tied the repeal | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
of the sanctions to progress on the Ukrainian peace deal, | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
known as the Minsk agreement. That truce called for the handover | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
of control of rebel-held portions of Ukraine's border with Russia | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
to the authorities in Kiev, along with constitutional reforms | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
that would give more autonomy to Russia-affiliated | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
territories in eastern Ukraine. A short while ago I spoke | :07:24. | :07:24. | |
to Natalia Galibarenko, who is the Ukrainian ambassador | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
to the UK, and is in Edinburgh First of all it is worth reminding | :07:30. | :07:46. | |
ourselves that the proximate cause of the demonstrations back in 2014 | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
was an accession agreement with the European Union that Ukraine had | :07:55. | :07:55. | |
negotiated and which the then president went back on. Given that, | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
what on earth do people in Ukraine make of what has happened in Britain | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
over the past week? For sure I can tell you there was quite a massive | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
misunderstanding in Ukraine. The amount of people, politicians, | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
diplomats, what actually happened and why? What are the reasons behind | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
the choice? Ukrainians made the choice in favour of the European | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
Union and so that is why there was quite a misunderstanding by the | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
British people decided otherwise. However, you know, there is the | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
beginning of quite a profound analysis in Ukraine of why it | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
happened. The main question now is what the British people will do | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
next. How the new negotiations will go with the European Union. The most | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
important question for us, what will be with the UK protester beat in the | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
no cessation agreement because the UK was also a part of our cessation | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
agreement and the question now is how we will also be negotiating on a | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
bilateral basis what to do with this participation. I think the peak of | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
panic and chaos about what happened is already over also in Ukraine and | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
there is an understanding that despite the choice about the Brexit, | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
the British people and Britain will remain staunch supporters of | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
Ukraine. What are the ambitions of the current government of Mr Potter | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
Schenkel in regards to the European Union? Do you want to go ahead with | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
some sort of association agreement? Is the ambition eventually perhaps | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
to become members of the European Union? In the long run of course we | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
are looking forward to entering the European Union at some point. When | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
the appropriate criteria will be met. Now we are looking | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
realistically at the situation we are not ready to be a member of the | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
European Union and the European Union is definitely not ready to | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
embrace Ukraine at this moment. The priorities of the government now is | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
to reform the country. To make the democracy really sustainable. To | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
revive our economic situation and also the main challenges the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
security situation while we have military aggression in the east of | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
Ukraine. What about the association agreement that caused all the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
controversy at the time? Is there an ambition to at least have an | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
association agreement with the European Union or has that been | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
cancelled because of treasure from Mr Hughton and others? You know that | :10:38. | :10:45. | |
the cessation agreement is already underway. To say in a provisional | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
matter. Still the complete notification and they are | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
implemented already 90% of the agreement itself. The problem now is | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
what to do with the Netherlands. After the Dutch referendum there | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
should be some amendment made how the Netherlands will be covered by | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
our cessation agreement and also as I mentioned there will be a question | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
what to do with the UK participation in the agreement. | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
What is the latest situation as far as you are concerned in the rebel | :11:18. | :11:29. | |
areas in the area? Is there any possibility of those areas being | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
fully reintegrated into Ukraine? To be frank with you, the situation is | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
very far from positive. I am afraid that we are not in a position to | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
speak about the forthcoming settlement or the situation on | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
these. The problem there is the actual desire, there is no desire | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
for the Russians to implement security on the ground. Of course, | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
our idea is to reintegrate the areas security on the ground. Of course, | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
into our territory and keep our country united, and also make our | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
area free from intervention from the Russian federation. But this dance | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
area free from intervention from the requires two dancers to play. And | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
what about Crimea, realistically? Has Ukraine accepted that Crimea is | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
unlikely to return? We will never accept that Crimea is annexed by the | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
Russian Federation, and we will be trying to keep the Crimean issue on | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
Russian Federation, and we will be the international agenda. But I | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Russian Federation, and we will be absolutely agree that factor, we are | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
not controlling the Crimea, and we are more concerned about the human | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
rights violations on the peninsular, and the Ukrainians on the peninsular | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
are limited in their right, for examples they were forced to receive | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
Russian passport and denied Ukrainian citizenship automatically | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
without any permission from the people. But again, the idea is in a | :13:11. | :13:19. | |
peaceful manner, I emphasise, in a peaceful manner to try and attract | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
Crimean people to show that they would be more happy in the United | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
Ukraine, not with Russian Federation. And I assume Ukraine | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
does not accept the legitimacy of the referendum that took Crimea out | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
of Ukraine? Of course, that was absolutely a fake referendum, | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
organised under the guns of Russian military. 90%, or they wanted to | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
depict 102% of voters, that does not matter. The point is that of the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
international community also does not recognise the Crimean referendum | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
and the General Assembly resolution is speaking about the same. You are | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
addressing the Scottish Parliament tomorrow, I believe, what do you | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
want to tell them? I would be meeting with the members of the | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
Parliament, and the Speaker of the Scottish parliament. I think there | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
are many possibilities for Ukraine and Scotland to develop original | :14:22. | :14:30. | |
cooperation. The crucial thing for Ukraine is reform, devolution of | :14:31. | :14:39. | |
power. So Scotland is a very profound partner in this regard. | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
They can share their experience, how to do this in the best way, with the | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
demolition of power. So on the one hand -- the devolution of power. So | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
on the one hand, if you are getting more rights, people in the local | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
communities receive it but they also receive more responsibility. That is | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
the combination I would like to discuss with my Scottish partner. | :15:01. | :15:12. | |
Thank you for joining us. Next week we will see the first | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
round of voting for the Conservative candidates, the future for Jeremy | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
Corbyn and the publication of the Chilcott Report on Wednesday. | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
Joining me is the political editor at the Courier, Kieran Andrews, | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
and the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire, | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
Do you think Corbin should go? I think he is going to have to. His | :15:30. | :15:39. | |
position is not sustainable any more. He has had over 80% of the | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party who has said he should stand down, it is not | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
just that, it is across the UK now. We have got members, councillors | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
just that, it is across the UK now. calling him to go. There is no doubt | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
that both sides feel they are battling the heart and soul of the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
Labour Party at the moment so I think it will get more messy before | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
it gets better. There has always been this tension in the Labour | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
Party, usually it muddles through, between those who think that the | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
leader is elected by the members and should be accountable to the members | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
of the Labour Party, and others who say, hang on, MPs are elected by | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
millions of people, they have to do have a vote and a say in that and it | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
is more conjugated, but Inc stream times, the division of view is | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
becoming an extreme split. -- in extreme times. Both are members and | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
the MPs have an important role in choosing the leader, but the problem | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
is last year, a number of MPs allow Jeremy Corbyn on the ballot paper | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
but did not support him, so he now has no confidence from the MPs. What | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
would you say to those 250 people -- 250,000 people, I know some people | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
will denigrate them as one click, they have paid their money though, | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
and they have all supported Jeremy Corbyn. They are all going to be | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
ignored. They are not going to be ignored. If he runs again, he will | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
win. I am not sure. He has had a shot at the leadership, and people | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
even who voted for him are now saying, it is not good enough. I | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
think if he was running an efficient operation, the matter his policies, | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
people might give him more of a chance but what we are seeing at the | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
top of the Labour Party is a shambles. What do you make of this? | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
The problem with the Labour rebels who want a clue here, is that they | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
have walked Jeremy Corbyn to the bridge and failed to push him off. | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
There is no alternative, that is not seem to be any sort of plan. It has | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
been one of the worst cases of regicide you could possibly imagine. | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
Regicide where you do not a chilly kill the King. -- you don't kill the | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
king, you just growl. Yes, and there is no challenge to the throne. They | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
are saying, Labour MPs are saying, we will knife you, but they are | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
waving spoons around in the air. There is no challenge, it has been a | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
botched operation so far. It is every bit as shambolic the | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
organisers Jeremy Corbyn's leadership so far. -- shambolic Lee | :18:19. | :18:28. | |
organised. If this is not a clue, there is party that Labour can learn | :18:29. | :18:39. | |
from as it comes to nice stabbing. If you want a good example, Boris | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
Johnson was dispatched by Michael Gove efficiently, swiftly and | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
without any mercy. Stabbed from the front, back, any which way you could | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
imagine. And now the Tories are turning on themselves down | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
Westminster as well, there is not enough corners to brief. Where do | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
you think Michael Gove is left? He was on TV this morning saying he | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
stabbed Boris in the interests of the nation, will not be credible? I | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
don't think so. There is a case that Michael Gove looked at Boris Johnson | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
and thought, here is a man without a plan, he is not up to it, I need to | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
take him out. But when you step back plan, he is not up to it, I need to | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
and look at the way he stabbed David Cameron in the back to go and | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
campaign for Leave, he has done the same to Boris Johnson, he does not | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
look like trustworthy politician. What do you make of it, from your | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
depths of your depression? At least you can laugh the Tories. At least | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
they are, they are taking attention away from the Labour Party so that | :19:42. | :19:50. | |
is good. To -- Theresa May is strong candidate and I think it will be | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
difficult for anyone to beat her, it looks like she is running away from | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
it. Assembly who wants to see the Labour Party doing well, I am very | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
pleased that it does not look like Stephen Crabb is doing well. He is | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
somebody who would start to reach into labour support, I think, ... | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
Really? Yes, that working-class vote in the North who voted Leave in the | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
referendum, if you look at his back story. I am happy that he does not | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
appear to be getting too much attention. I think there is a huge | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
question over Michael Gove's character. The Chilcott enquiry, it | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
is almost forgotten, it was such a huge issue but it is going to be | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
when the report comes out. Almost inevitably there will be calls for | :20:38. | :20:39. | |
retribution. Absolutely. It will reignite again and it has fallen by | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
the wayside slightly in light of the madness we have seen last week in | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
British politics. But this will add to it and push again, there has been | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
chat around the Houses of Parliament to it and push again, there has been | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
that Jeremy Corbyn is hanging on just so he can do a bit of knife | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
plunging off his own into Tony Blair when the report comes out. But the | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
problem is, that is very critical Chilcott Report will add to the | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
sense that politicians are all at it, they are all liars. I think the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
report is very important particularly to people who have lost | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
loved ones or who have sustained injuries, this is a serious piece of | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
work and it is a shame it has taken so long. The question is, is it | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
going to change the way we do foreign policy in the UK, will it | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
make a difference about how the wake we make foreign policy decisions? We | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
will have to see it come out but I do not know if it will have an | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
impact because I think we have already had the impact. Thank you | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
very much. That is all we have time for this week. I will be back next | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
week. Until then, goodbye. | :21:54. | :21:55. |