26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


26/06/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


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Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

:00:15.:00:21.

been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

:00:22.:00:26.

this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

:00:27.:00:31.

going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

:00:32.:00:36.

any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

:00:37.:00:44.

does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

:00:45.:00:51.

replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

:00:52.:00:56.

have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

:00:57.:01:02.

referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

:01:03.:01:11.

country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

:01:12.:01:19.

to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

:01:20.:01:21.

cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

:01:22.:02:04.

listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

:02:05.:02:08.

saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

:02:09.:02:37.

And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

:02:38.:02:43.

who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

:02:44.:02:47.

Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

:02:48.:02:52.

hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

:02:53.:02:56.

the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

:02:57.:03:01.

be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

:03:02.:03:06.

voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

:03:07.:03:11.

the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

:03:12.:03:15.

should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

:03:16.:03:20.

Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

:03:21.:03:25.

did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

:03:26.:03:29.

does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

:03:30.:03:35.

will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

:03:36.:03:37.

electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

:03:38.:03:44.

referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

:03:45.:03:50.

political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

:03:51.:03:54.

and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

:03:55.:04:01.

delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

:04:02.:04:06.

people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

:04:07.:04:09.

success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

:04:10.:04:14.

have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

:04:15.:04:20.

on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

:04:21.:04:24.

need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

:04:25.:04:29.

that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

:04:30.:04:33.

the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

:04:34.:04:37.

the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

:04:38.:04:41.

listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

:04:42.:04:45.

behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

:04:46.:04:49.

Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

:04:50.:04:56.

maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

:04:57.:05:00.

within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

:05:01.:05:05.

want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

:05:06.:05:08.

doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

:05:09.:05:13.

particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

:05:14.:05:16.

hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

:05:17.:05:21.

able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

:05:22.:05:25.

leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

:05:26.:05:30.

Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

:05:31.:05:34.

government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

:05:35.:05:37.

are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

:05:38.:05:42.

and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

:05:43.:05:45.

at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

:05:46.:05:50.

we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

:05:51.:05:54.

provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

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overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

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people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

:06:05.:06:10.

I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

:06:11.:06:14.

for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

:06:15.:06:20.

party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

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months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

:06:26.:06:30.

to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

:06:31.:06:36.

He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

:06:37.:06:44.

you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

:06:45.:06:48.

sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

:06:49.:06:53.

Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

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-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

:07:02.:07:06.

His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

:07:07.:07:10.

think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

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electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

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the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

:07:24.:07:25.

of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

:07:26.:07:27.

for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

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not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

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about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

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part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

:07:47.:07:51.

until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

:07:52.:07:56.

disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

:07:57.:08:03.

the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

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to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

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political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

:08:13.:08:18.

another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

:08:19.:08:23.

not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

:08:24.:08:26.

stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

:08:27.:08:31.

You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

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not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

:08:37.:08:42.

colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

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not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

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it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

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where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

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us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

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live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

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what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

:09:15.:09:19.

result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

:09:20.:09:22.

Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

:09:23.:09:31.

spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

:09:32.:09:36.

decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

:09:37.:09:39.

against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

:09:40.:09:47.

can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

:09:48.:09:52.

months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

:09:53.:09:56.

captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

:09:57.:10:07.

prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

:10:08.:10:10.

have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

:10:11.:10:14.

have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

:10:15.:10:22.

point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

:10:23.:10:28.

politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

:10:29.:10:31.

consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

:10:32.:10:40.

significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

:10:41.:10:45.

statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:10:46.:10:50.

be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

:10:51.:10:56.

everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

:10:57.:11:01.

everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

:11:02.:11:06.

who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

:11:07.:11:12.

conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

:11:13.:11:15.

does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

:11:16.:11:22.

united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

:11:23.:11:28.

to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

:11:29.:11:32.

not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

:11:33.:11:38.

feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

:11:39.:11:43.

any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

:11:44.:11:47.

becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

:11:48.:11:51.

with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

:11:52.:11:55.

before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

:11:56.:12:01.

really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

:12:02.:12:06.

I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

:12:07.:12:10.

have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

:12:11.:12:16.

Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

:12:17.:12:21.

seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

:12:22.:12:26.

we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

:12:27.:12:30.

the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

:12:31.:12:35.

it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

:12:36.:12:39.

any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

:12:40.:12:43.

have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

:12:44.:12:47.

anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

:12:48.:12:51.

reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

:12:52.:12:56.

what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

:12:57.:13:02.

two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

:13:03.:13:06.

my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

:13:07.:13:10.

Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

:13:11.:13:15.

They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

:13:16.:13:19.

Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

:13:20.:13:23.

Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

:13:24.:13:25.

Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

:13:26.:13:42.

be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

:13:43.:13:44.

David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

:13:45.:13:47.

by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

:13:48.:13:50.

there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

:13:51.:13:52.

prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

:13:53.:13:55.

and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

:13:56.:14:02.

reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

:14:03.:14:06.

ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

:14:07.:14:12.

have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

:14:13.:14:16.

critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

:14:17.:14:19.

answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

:14:20.:14:26.

contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

:14:27.:14:29.

APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

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length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

:14:35.:14:37.

difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

:14:38.:14:43.

pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

:14:44.:14:47.

levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

:14:48.:14:52.

European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

:14:53.:14:55.

Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

:14:56.:15:01.

emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

:15:02.:15:04.

Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

:15:05.:15:09.

have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

:15:10.:15:14.

referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

:15:15.:15:17.

on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

:15:18.:15:23.

the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

:15:24.:15:28.

the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

:15:29.:15:32.

Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

:15:33.:15:36.

Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

:15:37.:15:43.

Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

:15:44.:15:47.

Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

:15:48.:15:51.

the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

:15:52.:15:55.

among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

:15:56.:16:00.

brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

:16:01.:16:04.

Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

:16:05.:16:09.

with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

:16:10.:16:16.

very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

:16:17.:16:20.

committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

:16:21.:16:23.

is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

:16:24.:16:26.

Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

:16:27.:16:32.

is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

:16:33.:16:36.

Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

:16:37.:16:43.

fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

:16:44.:16:46.

scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

:16:47.:16:50.

second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

:16:51.:16:54.

numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

:16:55.:16:59.

remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

:17:00.:17:04.

it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

:17:05.:17:09.

in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

:17:10.:17:14.

same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

:17:15.:17:20.

is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

:17:21.:17:23.

disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

:17:24.:17:29.

massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

:17:30.:17:32.

says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

:17:33.:17:36.

Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

:17:37.:17:43.

Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

:17:44.:17:49.

Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

:17:50.:17:53.

He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

:17:54.:17:58.

mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

:17:59.:18:02.

wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

:18:03.:18:06.

other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

:18:07.:18:10.

Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

:18:11.:18:15.

question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

:18:16.:18:20.

Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

:18:21.:18:26.

I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

:18:27.:18:32.

someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

:18:33.:18:37.

did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

:18:38.:18:42.

is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

:18:43.:18:45.

seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

:18:46.:18:53.

the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

:18:54.:18:58.

sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

:18:59.:19:04.

interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

:19:05.:19:09.

horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

:19:10.:19:12.

leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

:19:13.:19:17.

bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

:19:18.:19:22.

I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

:19:23.:19:26.

have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

:19:27.:19:31.

page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

:19:32.:19:38.

thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

:19:39.:19:41.

timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

:19:42.:19:45.

having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

:19:46.:19:50.

strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

:19:51.:19:53.

manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

:19:54.:19:58.

we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

:19:59.:20:03.

signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

:20:04.:20:10.

it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

:20:11.:20:17.

he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

:20:18.:20:22.

members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

:20:23.:20:25.

popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

:20:26.:20:31.

national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

:20:32.:20:34.

of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

:20:35.:20:39.

We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

:20:40.:20:40.

to happen. You may currently be

:20:41.:20:43.

unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

:20:44.:20:45.

the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

:20:46.:20:49.

Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

:20:50.:20:58.

unlocks our membership of the European Union,

:20:59.:21:00.

chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

:21:01.:21:03.

the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

:21:04.:21:05.

to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

:21:06.:21:09.

vague so that each member state can decide how

:21:10.:21:11.

and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

:21:12.:21:16.

it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

:21:17.:21:18.

effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

:21:19.:21:23.

contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

:21:24.:21:27.

the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

:21:28.:21:30.

in the European Commission. What will be the substance

:21:31.:21:35.

of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

:21:36.:21:41.

discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

:21:42.:21:43.

and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

:21:44.:21:48.

financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

:21:49.:21:52.

and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

:21:53.:21:55.

conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

:21:56.:21:57.

to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

:21:58.:22:04.

and will require ratification from each of the 27

:22:05.:22:06.

national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

:22:07.:22:12.

hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

:22:13.:22:15.

and will need support from a qualified majority,

:22:16.:22:18.

at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

:22:19.:22:22.

it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

:22:23.:22:29.

the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

:22:30.:22:35.

of the council. There we are, much more of that to

:22:36.:22:45.

come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

:22:46.:22:49.

Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

:22:50.:22:52.

Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

:22:53.:22:55.

for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

:22:56.:23:06.

of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

:23:07.:23:12.

have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

:23:13.:23:16.

consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

:23:17.:23:21.

will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

:23:22.:23:24.

process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

:23:25.:23:29.

months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

:23:30.:23:32.

shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

:23:33.:23:37.

it is important for the country to see what are the actual

:23:38.:23:42.

consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

:23:43.:23:47.

are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

:23:48.:23:53.

President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

:23:54.:23:58.

apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

:23:59.:24:05.

do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

:24:06.:24:08.

result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

:24:09.:24:14.

to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

:24:15.:24:17.

to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

:24:18.:24:22.

Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

:24:23.:24:30.

has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

:24:31.:24:36.

and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

:24:37.:24:40.

for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

:24:41.:24:43.

relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

:24:44.:24:54.

these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

:24:55.:24:59.

have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

:25:00.:25:01.

have a big responsibility to help is going to be an agonising and

:25:02.:25:07.

highly complicated process of defining a new relationship with

:25:08.:25:12.

Europe. The odd thing about this referendum, when you think about it,

:25:13.:25:16.

it's like saying to someone, right, you are going to swap your house.

:25:17.:25:20.

You know where you live but you will swap it for another house. And right

:25:21.:25:28.

now, we can give you two people, you cannot see that the house but we can

:25:29.:25:32.

give you two people who tell you what they think. One says this house

:25:33.:25:36.

will be fantastic, great for you, and the other says this house is

:25:37.:25:40.

structurally on sound, you will hate it. We have taken the decision to

:25:41.:25:45.

swap homes, if you like, without having seen what the other thing

:25:46.:25:49.

looks like. Over this period of time, we will see what it looks

:25:50.:25:54.

like. We will then get right into the detail because the detail

:25:55.:25:59.

matters. For example financial services, if we don't have the EU

:26:00.:26:03.

passport for our financial services, what does that mean for the City of

:26:04.:26:07.

London? You could get thousands of jobs going so how do you preserve

:26:08.:26:13.

it? What does the car industry do? We have hundreds of thousands of

:26:14.:26:18.

jobs dependent on it. I think the detail will really matter and we

:26:19.:26:23.

need to take our time over this so that the country also carries on

:26:24.:26:26.

being engaged in a debate about what this really means. But what would

:26:27.:26:31.

you advise Boris Johnson and Michael Gove to go for in terms of the

:26:32.:26:35.

overall relationship? The details will take a long while, I understand

:26:36.:26:40.

that, but broadly what kind of relationship would you advise them

:26:41.:26:45.

to have going forward? I think one that preserves as much as we can of

:26:46.:26:50.

our access to the market in Europe because that is essential, I mean

:26:51.:26:54.

half of our trade is with Europe, but secondly which allows us at

:26:55.:27:00.

least some decisions that will be made that have a direct bearing on

:27:01.:27:04.

Britain. One of the things that so curious about this whole process is

:27:05.:27:09.

that we are an independent country, we are an independent country now. I

:27:10.:27:14.

say to people, I think the ten years I had as by Minister, I cannot think

:27:15.:27:17.

of a single decision that Europe said to me I had to make or I

:27:18.:27:23.

couldn't make other than those to do with Europe specifically. We will

:27:24.:27:26.

now be in this new relationship with Europe, we have got to work out what

:27:27.:27:30.

is in our interests. We have got to understand something as well, I

:27:31.:27:34.

think it is very important about where the country is today. I think

:27:35.:27:42.

it is deeply divided. The Leave camp won, but 48% voted Remain. I think

:27:43.:27:47.

there was a lot of dismay and anger among that 48%. I think a lot of

:27:48.:27:52.

young people particularly feel their future has been changed in a way

:27:53.:27:56.

they profoundly disagree with. And so, if there is a desire in the

:27:57.:28:01.

Leave camp to try to bring the country back together, if there is a

:28:02.:28:06.

maturity there in the politics of Leave, we have also got to show a

:28:07.:28:10.

majority for the politics of Remain and work out how we do this best for

:28:11.:28:14.

the country but that argues for a negotiating process which allows the

:28:15.:28:21.

country at every stage to see, this is the reality. It is no longer

:28:22.:28:29.

about claims and counterclaims. Do you rule out another referendum? As

:28:30.:28:34.

I'm looking at it here, I can't see how we would do that. You will have

:28:35.:28:42.

a reality to test yourself against. For example, in the last few days

:28:43.:28:46.

there has been this vast crash in the financial markets, something

:28:47.:28:51.

like $3 trillion has been wiped out financial markets globally, the

:28:52.:28:54.

pound has obviously fallen dramatically, but maybe studies

:28:55.:28:59.

itself in the days to come. The British people and the Europeans

:29:00.:29:04.

need to see that reality. Maybe as we get into it, there are companies

:29:05.:29:08.

that say, we are perfectly happy, we can live with the new arrangement,

:29:09.:29:15.

others say, we can't. If we finally see the structure, what is in the

:29:16.:29:19.

new house, we see the house we will now move into outside the EU, should

:29:20.:29:26.

that go for a referendum? As I say, I cannot see how you would go

:29:27.:29:29.

through the mechanics of another referendum now, but on the other

:29:30.:29:32.

hand there will be a lot of people in the country that say, let's have

:29:33.:29:36.

a look at this. Parliament will want to look at it. Remember, the one

:29:37.:29:44.

thing, again what was strange and unsatisfactory about the referendum

:29:45.:29:48.

campaign is the devil really is in the detail with this. I was trying

:29:49.:29:52.

to say to people, if you are deciding whether to join the

:29:53.:29:56.

European Union, that is one kind of debate, but when you are deciding

:29:57.:30:00.

whether to leave after four decades of membership, with intricate

:30:01.:30:05.

relationships, we need to see that. We need to see for example who will

:30:06.:30:09.

win that battle in French politics between those who say the border

:30:10.:30:14.

should go back to Dover now or the border will stay in Calais. All of

:30:15.:30:21.

these things I think are low us now to be, now we are going to see the

:30:22.:30:26.

new home, now we will look at it and test it, we will be going round it,

:30:27.:30:30.

we will be seeing what it really means. And so in a sense, what I'm

:30:31.:30:36.

saying is we have a divided country but I think there is the possibility

:30:37.:30:41.

of bringing people back together if we are sensible about it and don't

:30:42.:30:45.

let our dismay on either side of this argument get the better of our

:30:46.:30:54.

judgment. Why did Remain lose? I don't think that is very hard to

:30:55.:30:58.

work out. You could buy the wake of this type of referendum anywhere in

:30:59.:31:02.

Europe at the moment and you would have the potential for the result to

:31:03.:31:07.

be the same. One of the things I think is important for us as we go

:31:08.:31:10.

into this European negotiation, it is Europe can take one of two views.

:31:11.:31:20.

They can say, get out as fast as possible. The other thing they could

:31:21.:31:23.

do and maybe they should do when they reflect about it, if we

:31:24.:31:29.

approach this negotiation sensibly, is to think the British had their

:31:30.:31:33.

referendum but actually we have the same strains of opinion and the same

:31:34.:31:37.

anxieties in our own countries, let's think about how we deal with

:31:38.:31:42.

those and let's not look upon the Brits as outliers. They were always

:31:43.:31:49.

difficult in Europe, now we have got rid of the difficult people. No,

:31:50.:31:54.

every country is anxious about the effect of globalisation on jobs and

:31:55.:32:01.

so on. I think it is not hard to see why Leave won. Personally I think it

:32:02.:32:07.

is a very serious mistake for us but there it is. It's not hard to see

:32:08.:32:12.

how they win. You still haven't told me why they won. Because when you

:32:13.:32:20.

take a dissatisfaction with the status quo politically and anxiety

:32:21.:32:24.

about flat-lining incomes, worries about immigration particularly, and

:32:25.:32:30.

immigration has always been... Let's be very clear, you and I go back 30,

:32:31.:32:36.

40 years. Immigration has always been an issue. Where you mobilise

:32:37.:32:41.

opinion around it, particularly when the British media are prepared to

:32:42.:32:47.

take your platform and run with it, a referendum in those circumstances

:32:48.:32:52.

is going to be a tough thing. But immigration has never been bigger

:32:53.:32:55.

and a lot of the British people felt not so much about the numbers coming

:32:56.:33:00.

in, as it is very well for these politicians to let the people in but

:33:01.:33:04.

they are not building the schools and hospitals. They are not building

:33:05.:33:09.

the public services that we need if these numbers are to go and they

:33:10.:33:14.

felt the British political elite on the left and right were not

:33:15.:33:17.

listening to them and they may have been right.

:33:18.:33:21.

I thought my last election campaign on immigration. I know what a strong

:33:22.:33:28.

issue it is. But the answer to the problems and the pressures from

:33:29.:33:32.

Eastern Europe in particular, because I think the Eastern European

:33:33.:33:35.

is make a good contribution to this country. You did not build the

:33:36.:33:39.

houses for them coming in, neither did the last Labour government, and

:33:40.:33:43.

this government has not built enough? That was the reaction. I

:33:44.:33:48.

would suggest it is also why the Labour Party could not mobilise its

:33:49.:34:03.

vote for a massive turnout for movie Mac. -- Remain. You were the man

:34:04.:34:10.

that made the Labour Party love the EU. That is true. We invested

:34:11.:34:15.

massively in these communities, in education and health care care

:34:16.:34:20.

particularly. What not in housing? Housing is a real issue. We have to

:34:21.:34:24.

take it seriously. The right way to deal with it is to have a housing

:34:25.:34:30.

policy for the population as a whole. The other thing about

:34:31.:34:32.

immigration, it all gets lumped together. I think a lot of people's

:34:33.:34:39.

anxieties about immigration were not centred around those from Europe of

:34:40.:34:44.

those from outside Europe, however, I do except there were communities,

:34:45.:34:47.

and when people see their communities changing around them as

:34:48.:34:51.

a result of an influx of people, you have got to deal with that. Yes, I

:34:52.:34:56.

agree, but the answer is not to get out of Europe. Would your side

:34:57.:35:00.

perhaps have won if Labour had not fought such a half hearted campaign?

:35:01.:35:07.

I have made my comments on the campaign. What is important for us

:35:08.:35:12.

is to make sure that our own people understand why we were so passionate

:35:13.:35:17.

about staying in Europe. None of the problems that our voters face,

:35:18.:35:23.

problems and pressures on housing, jobs, health care, education, they

:35:24.:35:26.

will might be resolved by leaving Europe. One of the things that will

:35:27.:35:31.

also happen over the months to come is that as this reality, I keep

:35:32.:35:36.

seeing, now you can test this by reality, as that sinks in, there

:35:37.:35:39.

will be lots of Labour voters that realised this was not a smart move

:35:40.:35:44.

that the country has made. This morning, after the sacking of Hilary

:35:45.:35:50.

Benn, a prominent supporter of movie Mike -- Remain in the Shadow

:35:51.:35:55.

Cabinet, there seems to be amounting to inside the Parliamentary Labour

:35:56.:36:00.

Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should there be at two? I was coming on

:36:01.:36:12.

this programme to talk about Europe. -- a coup. I understand why you have

:36:13.:36:18.

to ask me. I know nothing more than I have read in the newspapers and

:36:19.:36:21.

seen on in years. This is for the Parliamentary party. It is not

:36:22.:36:26.

helpful for me to intervene, so I am not going to.

:36:27.:36:29.

The former Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking to me

:36:30.:36:31.

But not about Labour's mounting troubles today. They have just got

:36:32.:36:41.

more serious. Another Labour MP, Ivan Lewis, who is running for M --

:36:42.:36:46.

for me than Manchester, has called on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. --

:36:47.:36:51.

for mayor. Now Jo Coburn is here

:36:52.:36:52.

with us this morning. She's high up on the rooftops,

:36:53.:36:54.

casting her eye over events Events are so fast moving

:36:55.:37:01.

politically, the next Prime Minister in the Conservative Party

:37:02.:37:05.

leadership, and what happens to the UK after Brexit. Let's get some

:37:06.:37:10.

reaction from a former cabinet minister.

:37:11.:37:11.

With me now is the former Cabinet Minister Francis Maude,

:37:12.:37:13.

who was a Europe minister under Margaret Thatcher and negotiated

:37:14.:37:16.

You never made it clear before the referendum what side you were wrong.

:37:17.:37:26.

Can you tell us no? I am not going to see which way I voted until May

:37:27.:37:31.

direct my memoirs many years from now. You surprised by the result? I

:37:32.:37:36.

thought it would be a narrow victory for Remain but there was lots of

:37:37.:37:41.

anxiety around. My concern is that this is not a binary thing. The

:37:42.:37:46.

referendum result? The referendum clearly was, and it has to be, all

:37:47.:37:52.

or nothing, yes or no. The reality is, for quite some time, we have

:37:53.:37:58.

been a 65% per participant in the European Union. We are not part of

:37:59.:38:02.

the currency, or the Schengen agreement. At the end of this

:38:03.:38:06.

process, we should not be a nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said

:38:07.:38:10.

yesterday we are European nation. We will continue to be. The result of

:38:11.:38:16.

this cannot be pulling up the drawbridge into some sort of

:38:17.:38:19.

isolation. That is the language you're using, but the fact is the UK

:38:20.:38:23.

has voted to leave the European Union. Negotiations will start. They

:38:24.:38:32.

should not be rushed. They should not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was

:38:33.:38:36.

right when he said it is neither in Britain's or in the EU's interest

:38:37.:38:41.

for it to be rushed. There is a debate in the EU. People are talking

:38:42.:38:47.

about what happened in Britain on Thursday, but that is not a

:38:48.:38:50.

completely unique British phenomenon. But no one else has left

:38:51.:38:55.

the EU. There is anxiety about the direction of the EU in other

:38:56.:38:59.

countries, for example, the Netherlands. When I was doing

:39:00.:39:04.

European stuff 24 years ago, that was the most deeply pro-EU country

:39:05.:39:09.

that there was. That debate within the EU that someone spotted, Donald

:39:10.:39:15.

Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel has spotted it, that carrying on and

:39:16.:39:19.

assuming that this rigid doctrine, one size fits all, that approach,

:39:20.:39:24.

assuming that is the only way you can go, if that continues to be the

:39:25.:39:28.

case, there is a severe danger that the EU will spring apart. You think

:39:29.:39:32.

this could trigger a series of events that could be the beginning

:39:33.:39:38.

of the end for the EU? Unlettered reacts in a grown-up, sensible way.

:39:39.:39:43.

Why would it do that? I have heard European leaders saying that

:39:44.:39:47.

actually we have to see Great Britain, the United Kingdom, heard

:39:48.:39:51.

by leaving the EU, or what signal does it send to the one else? The

:39:52.:39:57.

signal it would send is it as an organisation which is willing to

:39:58.:40:01.

self harm in order to protect the very narrow, rigid approach to how

:40:02.:40:03.

countries collaborate and work together. Britain is the fifth

:40:04.:40:09.

biggest economy in the world, the biggest trading partner with our

:40:10.:40:14.

partners in the EU. To do something which damaged our economy

:40:15.:40:17.

deliberately would actually damage the European Union as well. Talking

:40:18.:40:24.

of harm... Europe would pretty soon start sneezing if we caught the

:40:25.:40:28.

cold. What about the Conservative Party? Lots of people were shocked

:40:29.:40:32.

when David Cameron resigned on Friday morning? Where you? I was

:40:33.:40:37.

disappointed. He has been an excellent Prime Minister and has led

:40:38.:40:41.

some excellent reforms. I sat round the Shadow Cabinet table with him

:40:42.:40:45.

for ten years and I am full of admiration for the leadership they

:40:46.:40:49.

give the party. It has to be his decision. I understand his view that

:40:50.:40:54.

the negotiations about the new arrangements of Britain's

:40:55.:40:57.

relationship with Europe has to be undertaken by someone who has been

:40:58.:41:04.

in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson? I have worked closely with Boris,

:41:05.:41:08.

Michael Gove, I am full of admiration for him. There are some

:41:09.:41:14.

very serious candidates. They would give the right leadership in the

:41:15.:41:18.

country and the party. Is Boris Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea,

:41:19.:41:23.

I am not in the House of Commons, so I do not know. In terms of advice,

:41:24.:41:28.

let's imagine Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are part of the

:41:29.:41:32.

negotiating team once there is a leadership contest. What would you

:41:33.:41:37.

say to them? The starting point, so far as economic relationship with

:41:38.:41:41.

our current partners in the European Union is concerned, the starting

:41:42.:41:44.

point should be that others need to show why we should not be able to

:41:45.:41:48.

trade on the same kind of bases that we do at the moment. Bielik Norway,

:41:49.:41:56.

or Switzerland? Nothing has to be quite so one size fits all as you're

:41:57.:41:59.

suggesting. There is no single model. Britain is the fifth biggest

:42:00.:42:05.

economy in the world. It is a different kind of relationship. It

:42:06.:42:10.

has always had a different kind of relationship within the European

:42:11.:42:13.

Union. This will be another different relationship in the

:42:14.:42:18.

future, unique and distinctive. When people start saying, of course,

:42:19.:42:22.

Britain cannot be part of the single financial market, the answer is, why

:42:23.:42:27.

not? You need to show why. Everyone has been saying that Europe as well

:42:28.:42:31.

as Britain benefits from being in the single financial market. Why

:42:32.:42:35.

would you want to commit an act of self harm to deny that? You sound as

:42:36.:42:40.

though it will be smooth and straightforward, Britain will get

:42:41.:42:42.

what it once in terms of the benefits of being in the EU, despite

:42:43.:42:47.

having left, and none of the things that the goal voted on, freedom of

:42:48.:42:53.

movement for example? Freedom of movement is coming under criticism,

:42:54.:42:56.

absolute freedom of movement, as it is framed at the moment, it has been

:42:57.:43:01.

coming under criticism from many parts of the political spectrum,

:43:02.:43:06.

both in Britain and across the EU. What was part of their original deal

:43:07.:43:09.

was freedom of movement of labour, people moving to where they had

:43:10.:43:14.

jobs. That is different from what we have seen at the moment, which is

:43:15.:43:19.

what is cause such concern, not just in Britain but in other parts of the

:43:20.:43:23.

European Union. I'll do surprise but the reaction of European Union, --

:43:24.:43:29.

European Union leaders, foreign ministers, who are saying that this

:43:30.:43:33.

is not an amicable divorce, telling Britain to get on with it? It

:43:34.:43:39.

depends on who you talk to. Donald Tusk has not been speaking in that

:43:40.:43:43.

kind of language. Angela Merkel has not been speaking in that kind of

:43:44.:43:47.

language. It depends on who you listen to. There is no sense for

:43:48.:43:52.

European neighbours to be acting in a way that deliberately harms

:43:53.:43:58.

Britain because, by harming Britain, they harm themselves. If you inflict

:43:59.:44:02.

deliberate damage and your nearest neighbour, your biggest trading

:44:03.:44:06.

partner, that has a blowback effect on them as well. When tempers cool,

:44:07.:44:13.

I understand they are irritated by all of this, but when it comes down,

:44:14.:44:18.

and people start to think about what is in their collective

:44:19.:44:23.

self-interest, then I think you start to get a more rational, more

:44:24.:44:27.

sensible approach, which does not need to be full of hostility and

:44:28.:44:31.

anger. Have you been approached to be part of the negotiating team? I

:44:32.:44:37.

have not. Would you say yes? You have had experience and you're

:44:38.:44:40.

familiar with negotiating within the EU. I am not pitching for that. I

:44:41.:44:46.

have left the front line in politics and I am happily engaged in a new

:44:47.:44:51.

phase of my life. But it really matters that we get this right and I

:44:52.:44:54.

would be happy to advise whoever is the new government, if they wanted

:44:55.:44:59.

to hear advice. Should the key negotiating team be full of people

:45:00.:45:03.

who campaigned to leave? I think it needs to be pretty broad. This was

:45:04.:45:10.

not a massive vote. It was decisive and clear, there is no room for

:45:11.:45:15.

argument, but it was not a massive vote to leave. I think the new

:45:16.:45:18.

government and Prime Minister will need to take his or her role as

:45:19.:45:23.

leader of the nation as seriously as the role as leader of the party.

:45:24.:45:29.

Francis Maude, thank you very much. Back to you, Andrew. I have the

:45:30.:45:34.

words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP who is running for the mayor of

:45:35.:45:37.

Manchester. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn cannot lead us back to

:45:38.:45:42.

government and there is a real risk we will suffer worse election result

:45:43.:45:48.

than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No more shadow ministers have resigned

:45:49.:45:52.

so far. Maybe some of them having second thoughts after they watched

:45:53.:45:58.

interview with John McDonnell. I am joined now by one of the

:45:59.:46:03.

Conservative's leading Leave campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your

:46:04.:46:08.

road map for getting out of the EU? We need to have the establishment of

:46:09.:46:12.

the unit in Whitehall, which I would like to see Derek Rae answerable to

:46:13.:46:16.

Number 10 rather than the Foreign Office of the Treasury, to begin

:46:17.:46:19.

discussions with our European partners ahead of what would be a

:46:20.:46:23.

trigger for Article 50. Presumably when we have a new Prime Minister in

:46:24.:46:27.

place. You go along with the existing prime ministers's

:46:28.:46:32.

timetable, that Article 50 begins the formal Brexit process? You do

:46:33.:46:37.

not want a trigger that before the autumn? No. It makes sense to decide

:46:38.:46:43.

our position in the UK. We have to put mechanics in place, increase the

:46:44.:46:46.

size of the Foreign Office, established a trade department. We

:46:47.:46:50.

will want to see as members of Parliament tomorrow what work has

:46:51.:46:53.

been done in preparation for a Brexit. This idea that no

:46:54.:46:57.

contingency planning was done is preposterous. That would have been

:46:58.:47:03.

responsible. We will want to see what work has been done and we will

:47:04.:47:07.

have to get such a unit under way so that there is no vacuum being

:47:08.:47:13.

created. I have heard some people in the Leave campaign saying it could

:47:14.:47:16.

be later than the autumn that we begin the formal process. The end of

:47:17.:47:20.

the year, the beginning of the new Year. That would be difficult. You

:47:21.:47:26.

would be looking to get an exit from the European Union at the beginning

:47:27.:47:30.

of the year. The financial year of the European Union is at the start

:47:31.:47:34.

of the calendar year. That would bring added complications. You want

:47:35.:47:38.

to get it tidied up. We want to see a process that means we can leave

:47:39.:47:43.

the European Union on the 1st of January 2019. That seems like a

:47:44.:47:48.

reasonable timetable. European leaders, particularly those in

:47:49.:47:51.

Brussels, the president of the commission and so on, they do not

:47:52.:47:56.

want to wait. They want to start the discussion is now. They may not want

:47:57.:48:00.

to agree to your ideal formal discussions therefore we present the

:48:01.:48:03.

Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal talks. Article 50 only gets

:48:04.:48:10.

triggered when there is a letter or a clearer definition. It is only

:48:11.:48:16.

Britain that can trigger it? Yes. What the European bureaucrats on,

:48:17.:48:19.

the ones that are on elected and not answer book to anyone, their

:48:20.:48:23.

attitude is different to the Chancellor of Germany, who herself

:48:24.:48:27.

is facing real action next year. You will see an increasing split between

:48:28.:48:31.

the on elected bureaucrats with no one to answer two and politicians

:48:32.:48:35.

with real economies to manage. You are confident we can get meaningful,

:48:36.:48:43.

informal discussions to sketch out some principles, not necessarily

:48:44.:48:45.

details, this side of triggering Article 50?

:48:46.:48:49.

Yes and we need to begin soon because there will be a willingness

:48:50.:48:55.

from our elected parliament to be in those discussions. The brothel --

:48:56.:49:01.

Brussels bureaucracy regard as impertinent to wanted to have leave

:49:02.:49:05.

the European Union, but we have got to do it quickly because we have got

:49:06.:49:09.

to show we have some momentum in this. Otherwise, if we create a

:49:10.:49:14.

vacuum it is a recipe for instability. Who should head up our

:49:15.:49:20.

negotiations? That is up to the Prime Minister but I think there

:49:21.:49:24.

needs to be a mixture of people who understand the views of trade

:49:25.:49:35.

experts... But who should lead, Michael Gove? He is an excellent

:49:36.:49:40.

suggestion, we also have Peter Lilley, who was involved in one of

:49:41.:49:44.

the most recent trade rounds, but we need to get it under way and

:49:45.:49:47.

Parliament needs to see what preparatory work needs to be done.

:49:48.:49:52.

Since we voted to leave, Nigel Farage has said it was a mistake to

:49:53.:49:57.

promise more money for the NHS. Dan Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave

:49:58.:50:03.

campaign never promised a radical decline in immigration. So

:50:04.:50:07.

continuing with the Department of honesty, can we now agree that there

:50:08.:50:12.

is an extra 350 million quid a week to spend on other public services?

:50:13.:50:23.

An extra 10 billion per year, but of course that is only available once

:50:24.:50:27.

we have actually left the European Union, which will be 2019, and those

:50:28.:50:32.

decisions have to be taken by the Government of the day. That will be

:50:33.:50:37.

very different from the one we have now. It is a long time in the future

:50:38.:50:42.

but what the Leave campaign, and what people didn't grasp was that it

:50:43.:50:47.

wasn't an election, they were reluctant to give future governments

:50:48.:50:50.

greater choice over the actions they could pursue if they wanted. So I

:50:51.:51:03.

will log that the 350 is more like 160. Will the Tory department

:51:04.:51:07.

whittle down the leadership hopefuls to a short list of two by the time

:51:08.:51:11.

the Parliament across the road goes off to the summary says on July the

:51:12.:51:18.

21st? It is a decision that will be taken by the 1922 committee. I think

:51:19.:51:21.

we should have a timetable similar to the one we had in 2005, not least

:51:22.:51:29.

because our party membership will be involved in the decision. What was

:51:30.:51:34.

that timetable? We didn't have the MPs' ballot until after the party

:51:35.:51:37.

conference so people could see a range of candidates they might have.

:51:38.:51:46.

So you would like a beauty parade at the Tory party conference in the

:51:47.:51:50.

first week of October that includes all of the Tory candidates? That is

:51:51.:51:56.

what we did last time, that was the system that produced David Cameron's

:51:57.:52:06.

election. Then the party... Know, first the House of Commons would

:52:07.:52:10.

have to reduce five or six candidates down to two, then the

:52:11.:52:15.

party and the country would have to decide who is right so the Prime

:52:16.:52:20.

Minister may be there until November. Potentially, under that

:52:21.:52:26.

timetable. I don't think that has huge drawbacks because we need to

:52:27.:52:29.

get that period of the pre-talks under way, then you have the new

:52:30.:52:34.

Prime Minister and can trigger article 50. Is it realistic to have

:52:35.:52:44.

a lame duck government from the end of June until the beginning of

:52:45.:52:49.

November? My view is that having that period does not make a huge

:52:50.:52:53.

difference to the process, but it might make a better choice for

:52:54.:52:57.

leadership and a better process for the party. And if it is a beauty

:52:58.:53:03.

parade at the party conference, William Fox be part of that beauty

:53:04.:53:08.

parade? I don't know, I haven't decided yet. I am thinking about it,

:53:09.:53:12.

I will make a decision once I have spoken to my colleagues in

:53:13.:53:17.

Parliament this week. And if you're hat is not in the ring, do you have

:53:18.:53:22.

a favourite you would support? I might have and you will be among the

:53:23.:53:27.

first million to know, Andrew! Thank you for that, Liam Fox.

:53:28.:53:51.

Well, Friday was a pretty dramatic day.

:53:52.:53:53.

But Thursday was also a pretty dramatic night.

:53:54.:53:55.

Adam Fleming once again behind the scenes at

:53:56.:53:57.

It is referendum night, so call in someone who has done it all before.

:53:58.:54:10.

How does this compared to presenting it in 1975? I cannot remember

:54:11.:54:16.

anything about 1975 except my hair was brown and not white. What were

:54:17.:54:24.

you doing in 1975? Were you born? I was a twinkle in my father's eye. We

:54:25.:54:36.

are going to have to do things the old-fashioned way, wait for the

:54:37.:54:42.

results to come in one by one. Early to declare Sunderland went Leave's

:54:43.:54:46.

away by more than they had expected. Newcastle opted for remain by not --

:54:47.:54:52.

but not by a lot. It felt very close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know

:54:53.:55:01.

what is happening at this point? No, and I have just responded to a tweet

:55:02.:55:06.

sent by a colleague. And still we start to see results from the south

:55:07.:55:10.

east, because the Remain come out predicating a win on a good showing

:55:11.:55:16.

in London, Surrey, East Sussex, Hampshire, that sort of area. Until

:55:17.:55:23.

I see some results elsewhere, no, not yet. In between, politicians did

:55:24.:55:34.

radio interviews in strange places. Come round here, and there is Amber

:55:35.:55:39.

Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the kitchen. I am waiting to do an

:55:40.:55:44.

interview, it is living the dream. I will have an Americano with a dash

:55:45.:55:55.

of milk. Labour areas, lots of them voted out, but according to Labour

:55:56.:55:59.

that was actually a good thing. What do you think when you see that? It

:56:00.:56:04.

is what I was expecting. I have been saying all the way along it will be

:56:05.:56:13.

touch and go, really close. This has demonstrated exactly where the

:56:14.:56:20.

country is, fairly Eurosceptical but pragmatic and wants to remain

:56:21.:56:24.

within. Whichever way it goes, I think there will be a few percentage

:56:25.:56:27.

points either way and Jeremy will be a reflection of how the country

:56:28.:56:32.

feels and that is what you want in a leader. The percentages were not

:56:33.:56:36.

going Remain's away, as proved by the miserable faces up their party.

:56:37.:56:44.

Brexit campaigners like Jacob Rees-Mogg started to think about

:56:45.:56:48.

dreams of their own. I'm opening a fete on Saturday

:56:49.:56:57.

and that will be a great celebration Actually, I promised

:56:58.:57:00.

to take my four-year-old to the toy shop because it was his birthday

:57:01.:57:06.

yesterday and he can He may get a slightly better present

:57:07.:57:08.

if there is a Brexit. Finally, just before 5:00am,

:57:09.:57:13.

David Dimbleby declared The decision taken in 1975 by this

:57:14.:57:14.

country to join the Common Market has been reversed by this referendum

:57:15.:57:18.

to leave the EU. The action moved from the studio

:57:19.:57:22.

to Westminster and they denouement I love this country and I feel

:57:23.:57:25.

honoured to have The Prime Minister going,

:57:26.:57:32.

Britain's destiny changed, David Cameron's early morning

:57:33.:57:39.

announcement of his resignation on Friday fired the starting gun

:57:40.:57:53.

on the first Conservative leadership To stand for the party leadership,

:57:54.:57:55.

candidates only need to be If more than two candidates stand,

:57:56.:58:06.

a ballot of MPs whittles that down via first past the post,

:58:07.:58:11.

until they are left Those two are then put to the full

:58:12.:58:13.

membership of the party, said to be about 150,000 strong,

:58:14.:58:18.

who decide the winner David Cameron has said he wants

:58:19.:58:20.

a successor in place by the Conservative Party conference

:58:21.:58:26.

in Birmingham, which starts But it will be the backbench 1922

:58:27.:58:28.

Committee which decides They will meet tomorrow to set

:58:29.:58:35.

the process in train. I'm joined now by the Deputy

:58:36.:58:42.

Chairman of the Conservative Party Is it not inconceivable, given that

:58:43.:59:03.

the country has voted to leave the EU, that it can be anything but a

:59:04.:59:08.

Brexit leader to take over? That may be the case but it will be up to the

:59:09.:59:11.

members and Parliamentary party to decide. My point is that, given the

:59:12.:59:19.

way the country has voted, given the Conservative Party voted even more

:59:20.:59:23.

that way to leave, that you need to have a leader that embodies... Was

:59:24.:59:31.

there for the fight on that side. It may be that the party membership

:59:32.:59:35.

decides for those reasons to vote for a Brexit leader, but it may be

:59:36.:59:39.

that they vote for someone over all who they think will best serve the

:59:40.:59:42.

country and party, it is just unknown. Will they be likely to

:59:43.:59:47.

trust somebody that said vote to remain to head up the divorce

:59:48.:59:52.

negotiations to leave? I don't think that will come into the equation

:59:53.:59:56.

because the country has voted to leave, I don't believe in the second

:59:57.:00:00.

referendum. I believe our party has moved forward now so people want to

:00:01.:00:06.

consider a range of things. Who are the main candidate in your view? Who

:00:07.:00:10.

knows, because no one has put themselves forward yet. Clearly

:00:11.:00:16.

Boris will be one of them, maybe Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about

:00:17.:00:22.

Theresa May? We haven't heard from her. I'm sure we will hear from

:00:23.:00:28.

people over the next week. Including Theresa May? She seems to be missing

:00:29.:00:38.

in action. We will see. Are George Osborne's leadership hopes now in

:00:39.:00:43.

toast? We will see. The country has made its decision. You are reluctant

:00:44.:00:53.

remainer, is that fair? Yes, because with the terrorism I believe it is

:00:54.:00:58.

better to be in an alliance of democracy. I think as a party we

:00:59.:01:05.

have faced three existential challenges. One is in terms of how

:01:06.:01:08.

people perceive us and whether we are seen as a passionate

:01:09.:01:12.

Conservative Party, second way in terms of our infrastructure. If we

:01:13.:01:15.

are honest or infrastructure is dying in the country and our

:01:16.:01:20.

membership is ageing, and thirdly it will be best at restoring party

:01:21.:01:23.

unity. I want someone who will deal with those serious issues that

:01:24.:01:27.

really threaten our existence as a party. They are even more relevant

:01:28.:01:32.

because the Labour Party will get its act together and get rid of

:01:33.:01:37.

Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue has destroyed the careers of the

:01:38.:01:41.

last three Conservative prime ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John

:01:42.:01:46.

Major, now David Cameron. Is there any chance now the country has taken

:01:47.:01:50.

the decision to leave that it doesn't become the toxic issue it

:01:51.:01:57.

has been for your party? I think we should follow perhaps the 11th

:01:58.:02:01.

commandment for every conservatism, pessimism is a luxury know one

:02:02.:02:08.

should allow themselves. Obviously the renegotiations will be difficult

:02:09.:02:12.

but we need to move on and discuss other issues that are facing the

:02:13.:02:16.

country. Finally, what do you make of what Liam Fox has told this

:02:17.:02:22.

programme, that rather than MPs rushing to create the short list of

:02:23.:02:25.

two names that then goes to the wider Conservative Party and the

:02:26.:02:30.

country, to do that by July the 21st with summer hustings and a

:02:31.:02:33.

combination of the Tory conference if I can put it that way, that in

:02:34.:02:38.

fact it should all be on hold until the Tory conference and that you

:02:39.:02:42.

should have hustings there, then whittle it down to two, and have a

:02:43.:02:46.

new leader by the beginning of November. My own feeling is that it

:02:47.:02:53.

will be up to 1922 and the membership to decide. I would prefer

:02:54.:02:56.

that we don't go on forever choosing a leader. I think we need a new

:02:57.:03:00.

leader for the stability of the country, but we need someone who

:03:01.:03:03.

will put compassionate conservatism at the forefront.

:03:04.:03:09.

Your fellow MPs have to get a short list of two by July the 21st? Am not

:03:10.:03:17.

telling them, but we should have a leadership contest sooner rather

:03:18.:03:21.

than later, because the country needs stability. I will take that as

:03:22.:03:26.

a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very much.

:03:27.:03:27.

It's not just Her Majesty's Government

:03:28.:03:29.

feeling the after-shocks of

:03:30.:03:30.

Plates also appear to be shifting for Her Majesty's

:03:31.:03:35.

Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn

:03:36.:03:37.

from his Shadow Cabinet last night and facing a vote of no confidence

:03:38.:03:40.

at tomorrow's meeting of the

:03:41.:03:41.

The secret ballot will not have any formal status,

:03:42.:03:50.

but backers hope it will embolden others to speak out,

:03:51.:03:54.

and build an unstoppable momentum against their leader.

:03:55.:03:56.

So far, MPs, including Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field,

:03:57.:04:02.

Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt, have already said they

:04:03.:04:04.

However, in order to depose a sitting Labour leader,

:04:05.:04:09.

a challenger will have to put themselves forward,

:04:10.:04:10.

and receive the support of 20% of the party's MPs.

:04:11.:04:14.

There are currently 229 Labour MPs, so 46 would have to back

:04:15.:04:17.

the leadership challenge by writing to general secretary Iain McNicol

:04:18.:04:20.

If a nominee secures that level of support,

:04:21.:04:30.

a contest will be held at the party's autumn conference,

:04:31.:04:34.

taking place in Liverpool at the end of September.

:04:35.:04:38.

If any further MP wanted to enter the race, they would also need

:04:39.:04:41.

Voting takes place on a one member, one vote basis by Labour members,

:04:42.:04:48.

affiliates and registered supporters.

:04:49.:04:51.

If more than two candidates stand, voters will rank their preferences.

:04:52.:05:02.

If no candidates get above 50% on first preference,

:05:03.:05:04.

the last placed candidate is eliminated and their vote

:05:05.:05:07.

is transferred until one gets above the threshold.

:05:08.:05:11.

We are now hearing that another Shadow Cabinet minister has

:05:12.:05:17.

resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of the younger intake of Labour

:05:18.:05:20.

politicians from the North, ought to be in tune with what Labour needs to

:05:21.:05:22.

do in the North. With me now is the Shadow Defence

:05:23.:05:23.

Secretary Emily Thornberry. Are you going to resign? No, and I

:05:24.:05:33.

can tell you why. I think that at a time like this, when the Tory party

:05:34.:05:37.

is pulling themselves apart, when nobody has any idea with the country

:05:38.:05:41.

ought to go next, the challenge for the Labour Party is to show some

:05:42.:05:46.

leadership. And to be a centre of composure, to think about where we

:05:47.:05:55.

are going, and I think we should be thinking about the nation first.

:05:56.:05:58.

What is happening in your Shadow Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do

:05:59.:06:01.

not really understand it. We had a Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and

:06:02.:06:04.

there were lots of opportunities than for people to express what they

:06:05.:06:08.

thought. I made it clear that the defence of UI have been working on

:06:09.:06:12.

for the last 56 months would need to be redrafted. I would need to think

:06:13.:06:18.

again about it. In light of what is happening? Yes, it has a big impact

:06:19.:06:23.

on defence. It was disappointing for me but the important thing is we

:06:24.:06:28.

remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important

:06:29.:06:32.

thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at

:06:33.:06:37.

what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to

:06:38.:06:44.

show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall

:06:45.:06:47.

times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership

:06:48.:06:52.

challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues

:06:53.:06:55.

in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they

:06:56.:07:00.

seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the

:07:01.:07:03.

referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that

:07:04.:07:07.

Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory

:07:08.:07:12.

in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the

:07:13.:07:17.

campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David

:07:18.:07:21.

Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in

:07:22.:07:26.

this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David

:07:27.:07:31.

Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about

:07:32.:07:36.

his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being

:07:37.:07:41.

blue on blue. When I spoke to David Cameron during the referendum

:07:42.:07:44.

campaign, he was complaining he was having to do all the heavy lifting.

:07:45.:07:49.

He was not just complaining about the lack of support from the Labour

:07:50.:07:54.

Party, but from the Tories as well. Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn

:07:55.:07:58.

making his mark? Jeremy made 30 speeches up and down the country.

:07:59.:08:02.

There was very little space us to get inserted into that debate.

:08:03.:08:06.

People criticise Jeremy for saying that he was only in favour of the

:08:07.:08:12.

European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I think that was truthful and real,

:08:13.:08:16.

and it reflected the views of lots of people in the country. Lots of

:08:17.:08:22.

people will have voted to remain. Those on the fence would have

:08:23.:08:25.

questioned whether they were in favour. Jeremy's voice was more

:08:26.:08:31.

truthful. Does that mean he is a better leader than David Cameron? I

:08:32.:08:35.

suspect it does. When did Jeremy Corbyn complain he was not been

:08:36.:08:39.

allowed to do more? We were always complaining. I went to Birmingham

:08:40.:08:43.

with half of the women from the Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in

:08:44.:08:48.

workplaces and so on. What was the coverage we got? There was a little

:08:49.:08:53.

clip, a film of us going into summer, and the voice-over being,

:08:54.:08:59.

nobody knows what Labour says on the referendum. Nonsense. You can

:09:00.:09:03.

complain you did not get the media coverage you wanted. That is true. I

:09:04.:09:07.

do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to accept one-on-one interviews. There

:09:08.:09:13.

were plenty of offers. In the end, I think he did one on Sky News in the

:09:14.:09:18.

evening. If he was champing at the bit to get it across, why did they

:09:19.:09:21.

not agree to do more interviews and programmes like this? The truth is

:09:22.:09:27.

that Jeremy had a straightforward response to the referendum. I think

:09:28.:09:31.

he should have been given an opportunity to get that out more. If

:09:32.:09:35.

he had been able to, that would have rung true with the country. I'll so

:09:36.:09:40.

think the Jeremy was also elected less than a year ago and 60% of the

:09:41.:09:45.

membership voted in his favour. Now is not the time for us to go for a

:09:46.:09:49.

leadership challenge, this is nonsense. We have you here, arguing

:09:50.:09:54.

your case, effectively as always. It is not true of all Labour people. I

:09:55.:10:03.

think that Mr Watson has been to Glastonbury. I am not quite sure

:10:04.:10:08.

what the silent disco is. There he is, the deputy leader of the Labour

:10:09.:10:12.

Party. Would you rather be there with him or here with me? I would

:10:13.:10:17.

always rather be with you. I knew you would say that. What would use

:10:18.:10:21.

it to your colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party to face

:10:22.:10:26.

this motion of no confidence that could be placed before the PLP

:10:27.:10:31.

tomorrow night? I am told there could be a majority forehead. I do

:10:32.:10:37.

not think there will be a motion of no confidence tomorrow night. They

:10:38.:10:42.

could vote the next day? Or the week afterwards, depending on how you

:10:43.:10:46.

interpret it. Could you lose? I think members of Parliament need to

:10:47.:10:50.

look at what the country is calling out for. The country is calling out

:10:51.:10:54.

for the Labour Party to step up and show an alternative. We must do that

:10:55.:10:59.

in a unified way. There is not the time for internal fighting. It is

:11:00.:11:04.

quite marketable we have a Prime Minister who has just resigned,

:11:05.:11:07.

there will not be a new Prime Minister at least until the

:11:08.:11:11.

beginning of October, if Liam Fox gets his way, it may not be until

:11:12.:11:17.

November. And the Labour Party is in the middle of its own turmoil as

:11:18.:11:21.

well. I have covered situations where one party has been in turmoil

:11:22.:11:25.

and the other one has taken advantage, but you are now both in

:11:26.:11:30.

turmoil. It is unprecedented? I agree, and the future is in hands.

:11:31.:11:36.

It is up to us, what we decide to do in the next few days. I will urge my

:11:37.:11:40.

colleagues to take a responsible view of this and think of the

:11:41.:11:44.

country first. The country needs us to be there. You're right, the

:11:45.:11:50.

Tories went into this, the two parts of the Tories, the Brexiteers went

:11:51.:11:53.

in not knowing what would happen if we got the Leave vote, and the

:11:54.:11:59.

government went in with no plan B. There is no plan at the moment, and

:12:00.:12:03.

our country needs a party to step up and do that role. That is what we

:12:04.:12:09.

should be doing. What do you say to those Labour supporters, not

:12:10.:12:13.

members, but supporters and voters, in the heartlands of the North and

:12:14.:12:17.

the Midlands, who did not follow your party's advise? They voted in

:12:18.:12:23.

substantial numbers to leave. They do not think that this Labour Party

:12:24.:12:26.

represents them. What do you say to them? One thing that came out

:12:27.:12:32.

clearly from this Brexit vote, is that half the country feels that the

:12:33.:12:37.

system does not help them. They are getting a raw deal, and whether that

:12:38.:12:41.

is because they cannot get their kids housing, or because they are

:12:42.:12:47.

having problems with their jobs and their terms and conditions, weather

:12:48.:12:50.

data not get access to public services, all these things are

:12:51.:12:53.

wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy is that we have answers to that

:12:54.:12:57.

nationally, and if we have a decent government prepared to address those

:12:58.:13:02.

issues, perhaps people would have a slightly different view. Now we have

:13:03.:13:05.

to reach out and speak to them. We must not do what happened after the

:13:06.:13:10.

Scottish referendum, when the Labour Party turned in on itself. We have

:13:11.:13:16.

running out of time. Can you give me a one sentence inkling of how your

:13:17.:13:21.

defence review might change? There is a question of how we defend

:13:22.:13:27.

borders now. If the GDP goes, we're 2% of GDP being spent on defence.

:13:28.:13:32.

What happens if GDP goes through the floor? Will have cuts? I also think

:13:33.:13:40.

that the EU and Nato two sides of the same coin. International

:13:41.:13:43.

relationships will change. A whole range of things will be affected.

:13:44.:13:49.

Thank you very much, Emily Thornberry.

:13:50.:13:51.

Now, as one union was broken with the vote on Thursday,

:13:52.:13:54.

the fate of another came into sharp focus.

:13:55.:13:56.

In Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of the

:13:57.:13:58.

SNP said the option of a second referendum

:13:59.:13:59.

on independence was now very much back on the table after Scotland

:14:00.:14:03.

voted by a significant margin in favour of

:14:04.:14:07.

remaining within the EU, only for votes elsewhere

:14:08.:14:09.

in Britain to swing the

:14:10.:14:10.

Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew

:14:11.:14:14.

At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are

:14:15.:14:22.

inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the

:14:23.:14:28.

best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a

:14:29.:14:31.

sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other

:14:32.:14:37.

parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour

:14:38.:14:41.

develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First

:14:42.:14:44.

Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland

:14:45.:14:48.

been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

:14:49.:14:51.

allowing us to be so will be devastating.

:14:52.:14:52.

Well, Scotland's not the only part of the

:14:53.:15:04.

UK where there are calls for constitutional change

:15:05.:15:06.

In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British

:15:07.:15:09.

withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for

:15:10.:15:12.

I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister

:15:13.:15:15.

of Northern Ireland, Martin

:15:16.:15:16.

Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,

:15:17.:15:24.

what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a

:15:25.:15:31.

very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made

:15:32.:15:35.

up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in

:15:36.:15:40.

Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British

:15:41.:15:44.

government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European

:15:45.:15:48.

Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland

:15:49.:15:55.

solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the

:15:56.:15:59.

Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of

:16:00.:16:04.

days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government

:16:05.:16:08.

would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of

:16:09.:16:11.

Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been

:16:12.:16:15.

focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of

:16:16.:16:19.

people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I

:16:20.:16:26.

Foreign Minister on Friday and I Foreign Minister on Friday and I

:16:27.:16:28.

have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.

:16:29.:16:33.

Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming

:16:34.:16:37.

desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to

:16:38.:16:41.

remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use

:16:42.:16:46.

your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll

:16:47.:16:53.

was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think

:16:54.:16:59.

you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just

:17:00.:17:03.

as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in

:17:04.:17:07.

Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just

:17:08.:17:10.

from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not

:17:11.:17:15.

say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that

:17:16.:17:20.

exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the

:17:21.:17:25.

future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how

:17:26.:17:29.

we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my

:17:30.:17:35.

focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions

:17:36.:17:40.

with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the

:17:41.:17:44.

discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you

:17:45.:17:48.

consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted

:17:49.:17:53.

to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that

:17:54.:17:58.

we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in

:17:59.:18:01.

Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take

:18:02.:18:05.

account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

:18:06.:18:09.

Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with

:18:10.:18:15.

the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some

:18:16.:18:18.

distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have

:18:19.:18:22.

more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where

:18:23.:18:24.

our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue

:18:25.:18:32.

to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not

:18:33.:18:40.

against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be

:18:41.:18:44.

one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the

:18:45.:18:48.

whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which

:18:49.:18:51.

has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of

:18:52.:18:56.

decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the

:18:57.:18:59.

dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the

:19:00.:19:05.

prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious

:19:06.:19:09.

undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of

:19:10.:19:12.

foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to

:19:13.:19:16.

pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you

:19:17.:19:23.

cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on

:19:24.:19:27.

Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the

:19:28.:19:33.

UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special

:19:34.:19:37.

arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes

:19:38.:19:41.

of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who

:19:42.:19:46.

wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with

:19:47.:19:52.

very senior officials and governmental authorities within

:19:53.:19:57.

Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are

:19:58.:20:01.

focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be

:20:02.:20:08.

how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the

:20:09.:20:12.

north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates

:20:13.:20:17.

which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of

:20:18.:20:21.

course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has

:20:22.:20:25.

clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the

:20:26.:20:29.

whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime

:20:30.:20:32.

Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a

:20:33.:20:52.

We now have Gloria De Piero's resignation letter, and a letter

:20:53.:20:58.

from Margaret Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy

:20:59.:21:22.

Corbyn should consider his position. When he did engage she was

:21:23.:21:26.

half-hearted, and in the end of Labour Party members and voters

:21:27.:21:28.

didn't know where the leader really stored. That is the latest from

:21:29.:21:35.

there. We have reassembled just for a few minutes before we go to the

:21:36.:21:39.

nations and regions our dream team panel. So we have a lame duck

:21:40.:21:45.

government, the dysfunctional opposition, and we voted to leave

:21:46.:21:51.

the EU. Anything else happening in politics today? It doesn't look like

:21:52.:21:55.

these resignations are petering out. It is only about an hour since the

:21:56.:22:04.

last one! I think Gloria De Piero is very significant because she was a

:22:05.:22:08.

close ally of Tom Watson, it looks like it is picking up steam now. She

:22:09.:22:14.

is one of those Labour MPs from the north. She had been in the media but

:22:15.:22:16.

is one of those Labour MPs from the seemed to be firmly rooted in the

:22:17.:22:20.

north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is

:22:21.:22:24.

significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a

:22:25.:22:31.

rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge

:22:32.:22:39.

between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else

:22:40.:22:44.

is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential

:22:45.:22:45.

unravelling of the UK itself. In the moment, there is the potential

:22:46.:22:51.

vacuum of leadership which has emerged since Friday morning, David

:22:52.:22:56.

Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being weak in his position, the closest

:22:57.:23:01.

thing I have seen in leadership is Nicola Sturgeon north of the border.

:23:02.:23:07.

You may or disagree with her position but she has a plan. The

:23:08.:23:16.

markets will be opening at 7am tomorrow here in London. The

:23:17.:23:24.

sterling, the FTSE could take a knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister

:23:25.:23:28.

now have to give a clear idea of where Britain goes now? Of the

:23:29.:23:33.

beginning of the informal talks, the process. Even though he is on his

:23:34.:23:38.

way out, isn't his duty to steady the ship? The biggest question is

:23:39.:23:44.

where on earth is the Chancellor in all of this. He is responsible in

:23:45.:23:48.

overseeing what will happen in the next few days in terms of the

:23:49.:23:49.

economy. We have that dignified and next few days in terms of the

:23:50.:23:54.

reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of

:23:55.:23:58.

England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is

:23:59.:24:02.

nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,

:24:03.:24:07.

I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the

:24:08.:24:16.

people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's

:24:17.:24:20.

sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up

:24:21.:24:23.

together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next

:24:24.:24:29.

leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the

:24:30.:24:42.

so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn

:24:43.:24:46.

so they may have a fight on their hands.

:24:47.:24:50.

It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:24:51.:24:57.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:24:58.:24:59.

Drama hardly begins to describe the events of the past

:25:00.:25:02.

It's yes to Brexit but nobody seems to know what happens next.

:25:03.:25:08.

Scotland, along with Northern Ireland and London,

:25:09.:25:10.

voted to remain, the rest of the UK voted to leave.

:25:11.:25:12.

I've been speaking to the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

:25:13.:25:15.

And no switching, folks, I think you'll want to hear

:25:16.:25:19.

what she has to say about Scotland possibly stopping Brexit.

:25:20.:25:24.

David Cameron says Scotland should be involved in the Brexit

:25:25.:25:27.

negotiations but will his successor be so accommodating?

:25:28.:25:29.

I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary David Mundell.

:25:30.:25:32.

Jeremy Corbyn loses Hilary Benn and half of his Shadow Cabinet

:25:33.:25:38.

are said to be threatening to resign if he doesn't stand down.

:25:39.:25:43.

I'll be asking the Shadow Scottish Secretary, well, is he still

:25:44.:25:46.

Otto von Bismarck once famously remarked that man cannot control

:25:47.:25:55.

the current of events, merely float with them and steer.

:25:56.:25:57.

Well, as things stand, it looks like David Cameron has

:25:58.:26:00.

proved this ancient adage wrong by creating the current,

:26:01.:26:03.

steering the country onto the rocks then jumping ship,

:26:04.:26:05.

leaving others to work out how and where this country heads next.

:26:06.:26:09.

Only one thing looks certain now, for England and Wales that future

:26:10.:26:13.

European influences are etched into Edinburgh 's Mac architecture. From

:26:14.:26:31.

the Dutch ecclesiastical style of the Tron Kirk, the Italian

:26:32.:26:35.

renaissance of George Herriot's school. The Spanish coast modernism

:26:36.:26:42.

of the Scottish Parliament. In the spirit of the old Alliance Edinburgh

:26:43.:26:47.

has long maintained strong links with Europe. Little wonder it was

:26:48.:26:55.

Scotland's most remain city. Victoria is no voters were told

:26:56.:26:58.

staying in the union was the only Victoria is no voters were told

:26:59.:27:01.

way to remain in Europe and many also believe they had more in common

:27:02.:27:05.

with the North of England and the Northern Isles but last week all

:27:06.:27:12.

that changed. The total number of votes cast in favour of leave was 80

:27:13.:27:20.

2000. England and Wales defied the pollsters and voted to leave while

:27:21.:27:27.

Scotland voted to remain. Let June 23 go down in our history as our

:27:28.:27:32.

Independence Day. The nation had a rude awakening on Friday morning but

:27:33.:27:37.

as the refined implications of Brexit have become clear there is a

:27:38.:27:41.

palpable sense of anger among many Scots. They are asking the southern

:27:42.:27:46.

neighbours, what on earth have you done? I think there are going to be

:27:47.:27:51.

very many people who looked not just that the result of the referendum

:27:52.:27:55.

but at the tone of the European referendum debate and don't want to

:27:56.:28:00.

be dragged either out of Europe against our will or dragged along

:28:01.:28:03.

with this right wing tendency which is gaining momentum. The idea that

:28:04.:28:10.

we were going to be happy being governed by Boris Johnson I think

:28:11.:28:15.

will double the great many people in Scotland. The SNP election manifesto

:28:16.:28:20.

was clear, if Scotland was taken outside the EU against its well

:28:21.:28:24.

Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum on

:28:25.:28:28.

independence. The First Minister hinted on Friday there may be other

:28:29.:28:33.

options. I want to make it absolutely clear today that I intend

:28:34.:28:36.

to take all possible steps and explore all options to get affect to

:28:37.:28:43.

how people in Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our

:28:44.:28:46.

continuing place in the EU and in the single market in particular.

:28:47.:28:52.

Options short of Independence will have been discussed at yesterday's

:28:53.:28:56.

Scottish Cabinet meeting. It is not clear what they might be. The UK

:28:57.:29:01.

could follow the example of the kingdom of Denmark. While Denmark

:29:02.:29:07.

itself remains part of the EU agreement voted to exit. And the

:29:08.:29:13.

islands which are also part of the Danish realm are not part of the EU

:29:14.:29:19.

either. Could something like this be possible here? The fact that the

:29:20.:29:23.

leather precedent for art of a member state leaving means it is

:29:24.:29:27.

possible. We also have the conversed, comic the unification of

:29:28.:29:31.

Germany where part of an existing state now was admitted in the

:29:32.:29:35.

unification process. Though, they'd is a certain amount of flexibility

:29:36.:29:40.

and differentiate relationships we can point to other nothing that

:29:41.:29:44.

exactly fits in the model we have right now. For supporters of

:29:45.:29:48.

independence the way forward is clear. He pulled this morning

:29:49.:29:55.

suggests support has soared to 59% up many of the main challenges

:29:56.:29:58.

remain and they are additional ones, too. It is likely to become

:29:59.:30:04.

independent but it is not certain because there are many obstacles in

:30:05.:30:08.

the way of Scottish independence. The questions about public finances,

:30:09.:30:14.

Scottish oil, that has not been resolved. The question of the pound

:30:15.:30:20.

and what would be used if we were in out of the European Union. Another

:30:21.:30:25.

point is the border, this would become the border of the European

:30:26.:30:26.

Union, a very hard order between become the border of the European

:30:27.:30:32.

England and Scotland and the whole point about independence in Europe

:30:33.:30:34.

last time round is that in both countries within the European Union

:30:35.:30:38.

you do not have to worry about the border. F1 stitching the union seems

:30:39.:30:45.

complicated during the independence referendum, Grexit has just taken it

:30:46.:30:47.

complicated during the independence to a whole new level.

:30:48.:30:50.

Shortly before we came on air, I spoke to the First

:30:51.:30:54.

If you do not mind, let's cut to the chase on this. People have heard you

:30:55.:31:03.

say over the last few days and on the Andrew Marr rogue RAM, you do

:31:04.:31:07.

not want to be in the position you find yourself in. Let's take this

:31:08.:31:11.

idea that you have been floating that somehow or other Scotland could

:31:12.:31:16.

stay in the European Union while Britain leaves. I'm interested just

:31:17.:31:21.

what are you actually thinking about that? Can I just be very clean about

:31:22.:31:28.

my position? Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and

:31:29.:31:32.

my job as First Minister is to death a way to effect the way Scotland

:31:33.:31:38.

voted and avoid the damaging consequences of being taken out

:31:39.:31:42.

against our will. I can not sit here and tell you definitely what is

:31:43.:31:47.

possible and what is not, we had an unchartered territory and that has

:31:48.:31:50.

never happened before in terms of the country trying to extricate

:31:51.:31:55.

itself in the European Union nations within the member state wanting to

:31:56.:32:01.

stay in. My job is to exhaust every possibility. At this with the

:32:02.:32:05.

starting point not being independence but how do we protect

:32:06.:32:10.

Scotland's position? If it transpires as we go through this

:32:11.:32:13.

process that being independent as the on the way we can protect our

:32:14.:32:17.

position, that is a debate, the on the way we can protect our

:32:18.:32:19.

discussion and decision and the people of Scotland have a right to

:32:20.:32:24.

have the option of taking. What are you exploring? One can easily

:32:25.:32:30.

example Scotland being part of the Erasmus student programme with

:32:31.:32:33.

England not being but Scotland being part of the single market if written

:32:34.:32:39.

is not? What I will do all along is the open, upfront and honest with

:32:40.:32:43.

the people of Scotland, with you the media, I am not going to say here

:32:44.:32:47.

today two days after a situation I did not choose being thrust upon us

:32:48.:32:51.

and say definitively what all these options are. What are you going to

:32:52.:32:58.

explore? I want to keep Scotland in the European Union, in the position

:32:59.:33:02.

we are just now and look at all options to try to achieve that. I am

:33:03.:33:06.

not pretending that will be easy or straightforward. There are massive

:33:07.:33:11.

complexity is along the way. It may be the only way we can protect our

:33:12.:33:15.

position is to become an independent country and if we are at the

:33:16.:33:19.

position of looking at that to another independence referendum that

:33:20.:33:23.

is not simply a rerun of the last one. We are in completely different

:33:24.:33:28.

circumstances. It would be a situation where we were looking at

:33:29.:33:31.

the possibility of independence not to leave anywhere but to enable us

:33:32.:33:38.

to stay. If we think back to 2014, I passionately believed independence

:33:39.:33:41.

what's right for Scotland but many people saw it as a step into the

:33:42.:33:45.

unknown versus the security and stability of the UK. That is not the

:33:46.:33:52.

case any more. The UK we voted to stay in 2014 simply does not exist.

:33:53.:33:57.

What we do now is the consequences of the UK extricating itself from

:33:58.:34:02.

you will be damaging, socially, culturally, economically. My job is

:34:03.:34:07.

to try to navigate a path through this for Scotland which protects our

:34:08.:34:11.

interests as well as we possibly can and to do that by unifying people in

:34:12.:34:17.

Scotland are as much as possible. We can talk a bit more about the

:34:18.:34:20.

independence referendum any minute but I want to come back to this

:34:21.:34:24.

idea. You seem to be saying your ambition and what you are trying to

:34:25.:34:29.

explore is the possibility of Scotland remaining a member of the

:34:30.:34:32.

European Union even though Britain has voted to get out? Hordern, if I

:34:33.:34:39.

was sitting here as First Minister in the face of the vote that was

:34:40.:34:44.

taken on Thursday in Scotland I should not be First Minister. Do say

:34:45.:34:49.

it is OK we are dragged about Europe against our will. In fact it is not

:34:50.:34:55.

usual to see a politician or a leader say. I am not sitting here

:34:56.:34:58.

with all the answers about what might be possible or don't not be

:34:59.:35:02.

possible. We had an completely unchartered territory. The two

:35:03.:35:08.

certainties we have, firstly as First Minister I have an absolute

:35:09.:35:12.

duty to seek to give effect to what people in Scotland voted for on

:35:13.:35:17.

Thursday and secondly the UK as was, the UK Scotland voted to stay in in

:35:18.:35:24.

2014 does not exist any more. I understand that but what you are

:35:25.:35:27.

arguing for and what your ambitions are, I can understand why you are

:35:28.:35:32.

say death given the vote here. It is not just that this might be

:35:33.:35:35.

difficult given the government of the United Kingdom but what you are

:35:36.:35:39.

suggesting would probably need treaty changes to the European

:35:40.:35:44.

Union? The European Union is already going into unchartered territory

:35:45.:35:47.

were found thinkable things ahead of it because of the UK wide vote on

:35:48.:35:53.

Thursday. What I am trying to do is achieve some stability for Scotland

:35:54.:35:56.

and give effect to what we voted for. Over the days, weeks and months

:35:57.:36:04.

to come I am going to discuss these options with the European Union 's,

:36:05.:36:11.

other member states and seek to find a way forward. It may well be beyond

:36:12.:36:15.

the baby can protect position in the European Union as if we chose to

:36:16.:36:18.

become independent. If that is the we are in your will be complexity is

:36:19.:36:24.

that as a country we have do think our way through and make a decision

:36:25.:36:27.

on the back of that. I am not prepared as First Minister to simply

:36:28.:36:33.

sit back and shrug our shoulders and say Scotland has put up with all the

:36:34.:36:36.

pain that comes the decision the UK took. To be clear, what you are

:36:37.:36:40.

going to explore and your ambition immediately is to look to see if

:36:41.:36:45.

going to explore and your ambition there is a way Scotland can stay

:36:46.:36:48.

part of the UK, stay part of the single market and keep free movement

:36:49.:36:55.

of Labour? Yes? I am going to explore all options. In these

:36:56.:36:58.

moments of crisis you have two hold onto some principle. The principle I

:36:59.:37:04.

hold onto as I try to navigate the country through a very difficult

:37:05.:37:06.

situation that was not about choosing lawmaking is this one. What

:37:07.:37:11.

is in our best interests and how do we give effect to what Scotland

:37:12.:37:16.

voted for? Just a few days after this result I am not going to sit

:37:17.:37:21.

here and say that is of the table or that is on the table. My ambition is

:37:22.:37:25.

for Scotland to stay within the European Union. With the single

:37:26.:37:33.

market and free movement of Labour? Absolutely, Scotland voted to

:37:34.:37:35.

maintain the situation we have just now. You want to do that without

:37:36.:37:42.

Scotland leaving the UK? Let's look at all options. I am realistic and

:37:43.:37:47.

not naive in this. It may well be that the only way of doing that we

:37:48.:37:52.

be to become independent and if that is the case then, as a country, we

:37:53.:37:56.

have to decide if that will be the best option. The Olive precedent

:37:57.:38:01.

people can think of is dreamland. Are you thinking of being a reverse

:38:02.:38:10.

Greenland? It is uncharted territory and I keep hearing people saying the

:38:11.:38:14.

rules of what happens now is this and this would not be allowed but

:38:15.:38:18.

this process has never been done before. They are no rules, no

:38:19.:38:23.

precedent. What would happen from here on in is they would be a

:38:24.:38:29.

process of negotiation. My job as First Minister of Scotland, a

:38:30.:38:33.

country that has voted to stay in is to try and get the outcome for

:38:34.:38:37.

Scotland that is best. That is what I will try to do. What is happening

:38:38.:38:41.

at Westminster, the complete vacuum of leadership, it is shameful. I am

:38:42.:38:47.

determined Scotland will be led with purpose. In your initial reaction on

:38:48.:38:52.

Friday you use language about what you would do which would to some

:38:53.:38:56.

extent depend on the messages you were getting back from the European

:38:57.:39:01.

Union. What was that link to say? Are you looking for a message from

:39:02.:39:06.

the European Union saying we do not want Scotland to leave? Of course we

:39:07.:39:11.

have to have that discussion with the European Union. That will take

:39:12.:39:16.

time to do. The judgments I make and put forward to Scotland which are in

:39:17.:39:21.

my judgment the best way forward well, to some extent, flow from what

:39:22.:39:26.

the reaction in Europe is. It comes back to this. I did not choose this

:39:27.:39:31.

situation. It is an horrendous situation for the UK to be in but

:39:32.:39:35.

people in the England had the right to vote the way they did. But I have

:39:36.:39:40.

got to protect this country and I would not be the First Minister of

:39:41.:39:44.

Scotland if I just shrugged my shoulders and said it does not

:39:45.:39:47.

matter how we voted, we are going to go through this situation of an

:39:48.:39:50.

dragged out of Europe against our will.

:39:51.:40:00.

Rarely are at the moment, this has to be, or this has to be, we are in

:40:01.:40:07.

uncharted territory and I do think, and I said this on Friday, looking

:40:08.:40:11.

at this at any angle, they would have to be in a position to have

:40:12.:40:18.

that referendum within that time still, that is essential. Should

:40:19.:40:20.

Scotland vote for independence still, that is essential. Should

:40:21.:40:22.

within the timescale, do you know Verheijen government giving any

:40:23.:40:24.

legal advice as to what the position of Scotland would be? Would we then

:40:25.:40:29.

just be part of Brexit and reapply to the European Union? Would we not

:40:30.:40:35.

bleed? In terms of what applies within Article 50, what you have is

:40:36.:40:40.

what Article 50 says to you. What happens in terms of how that will be

:40:41.:40:44.

given effect to as a matter of negotiation. My position in the

:40:45.:40:48.

circumstances would be that Scotland is not believe the EU, we stay. This

:40:49.:40:52.

circumstances would be that Scotland is your completely changed set of

:40:53.:40:54.

circumstances. What we are potentially looking at independence

:40:55.:40:59.

to do is to stay, not to beef up but to stay. But you have not had any

:41:00.:41:04.

messages from the European Union itself? Telling you that would be

:41:05.:41:10.

possible? These are discussions and questions that we have to take

:41:11.:41:16.

forward. But if we voted in a referendum for independence whether

:41:17.:41:20.

or not they would stay in the EU have to reapply, you would have to

:41:21.:41:24.

tell us that you don't know at the moment? Frommy common-sense

:41:25.:41:29.

perspective, why on earth would it be in the interest of the European

:41:30.:41:33.

Union to say to part of a member state that democratically had

:41:34.:41:36.

decided that it wanted to stay and wanted to be independent in order to

:41:37.:41:40.

stay to say that it had to leave in order to come back in? Because we

:41:41.:41:46.

are talking about European treaties, not common-sense! Yes, you look at

:41:47.:41:51.

the world today at Westminster in particular and you do not see a lot

:41:52.:41:54.

of sense, I would accept that. But one challenge I have is to bring

:41:55.:41:59.

common-sense to a situation that is otherwise in turmoil. If you are

:42:00.:42:04.

going to have indyref 2, as it has been called, is it the case that the

:42:05.:42:12.

polls still were trumping Brexit, will you hold back from having it?

:42:13.:42:19.

This is what I judged in the best interests to be for Scotland. If I

:42:20.:42:20.

judge for Scotland it is the best interests to be for Scotland. If I

:42:21.:42:25.

interests by staying in the European Union and that that can only be

:42:26.:42:29.

delivered by an independence referendum, I have a job to convince

:42:30.:42:32.

delivered by an independence people. Would you hold a referendum

:42:33.:42:34.

even the polls show that you would not win it? If I believed it to be

:42:35.:42:38.

in the interests of Scotland, I would try and persuade people.

:42:39.:42:44.

Coming back to the politics of this, you cannot afford to lose another

:42:45.:42:49.

one. Gordon, I cannot afford... That is looking at it from my now hope

:42:50.:42:53.

little interest as leader of the SNP. I do not want to sound Syed

:42:54.:42:57.

Kamall yes or pie is here and I hope that is not do this by what I killed

:42:58.:43:01.

you, but I will not make judgments over the period ahead as to what is

:43:02.:43:05.

right for me as leader of the SNP or as a party. I am First Minister of

:43:06.:43:09.

Scotland and I must make judgments about what is in the best interests

:43:10.:43:12.

of Scotland. If I reach a point over the next few months that says the

:43:13.:43:17.

only way I believe we can protect Scotland's economic, social

:43:18.:43:20.

interests is to become independent, then I have a duty to say that to

:43:21.:43:25.

the people of Scotland and try and bring Scotland together behind that.

:43:26.:43:30.

That is perhaps the responsibility of leadership here. Scotland at the

:43:31.:43:33.

moment needs to have an honest conversation every step of the way.

:43:34.:43:34.

This is a situation not of our conversation every step of the way.

:43:35.:43:38.

choosing, every simply stand back and allow that to happen, the

:43:39.:43:43.

economic consequences, the social, cultural, the one sequences for our

:43:44.:43:47.

place in the world, they will beget is taking. I have a duty to find a

:43:48.:43:53.

different path forward, and I will try to do that. There's not another

:43:54.:43:56.

big constitutional as you do will have to face the fact that... I have

:43:57.:44:01.

a document your written by the House of Lords and other important legal

:44:02.:44:02.

people with wigs and of Lords and other important legal

:44:03.:44:08.

they are saying that Scotland would have to agree, the Scottish

:44:09.:44:11.

Parliament must agree, to carpets of European legislation. There is an

:44:12.:44:17.

issue here. People won't understand that you say you want to have

:44:18.:44:20.

another independence referendum but the Scottish Parliament was to try

:44:21.:44:26.

to legally block Britain leaving the European Union, there is a

:44:27.:44:28.

democratic issue there, we are part of the UK, there has been a

:44:29.:44:37.

democratic vote. But this is not about the Scottish Parliament trying

:44:38.:44:39.

to put England, it is about taking a decision as to the best interests of

:44:40.:44:42.

Scotland. I recognise absolutely love the complexities that have been

:44:43.:44:46.

thrown up by thirsty's vote, but I did not create these and I have to

:44:47.:44:52.

deal with the reality that we are in. They issued you speak of is

:44:53.:44:55.

whether they would have to be a legislative motion for the

:44:56.:44:59.

legislation that extricate the UK from the European Union. From a

:45:00.:45:02.

logical perspective I find it hard to believe that would not be that

:45:03.:45:05.

requirement, I suspect UK Government would take a very different view on

:45:06.:45:09.

that and they will have to see where that discussion up. We have had

:45:10.:45:15.

nowhere near as as big and controversial issues as this one but

:45:16.:45:17.

we have had discussions in recent pass over the trade union poll and

:45:18.:45:23.

legislation over weeping the Human Rights Act and similar things. Would

:45:24.:45:30.

you consider asking the Scottish Parliament not to back such emotion?

:45:31.:45:36.

Of course. Did you say, of course? Yes, the Scottish Parliament was to

:45:37.:45:40.

judge this on the basis of what is right for Scotland, the option of

:45:41.:45:43.

saying we will not vote for something that is against Scotland's

:45:44.:45:46.

interest, of course that must be on the table. Even regarding that block

:45:47.:45:53.

of Britain leaving Europe? Do not get me wrong, I care about the rest

:45:54.:45:57.

of the duty, eye care about England, that is why I am upset with this

:45:58.:46:02.

decision that has been taken. But my job as First Minister and the job of

:46:03.:46:04.

the Scottish Parliament is to judge these things in the interests of the

:46:05.:46:08.

people of Scotland. But can you imagine the fury of people in

:46:09.:46:11.

Britain if you stop them leaving Europe? I can, but I have to match

:46:12.:46:15.

that with the people of Scotland was Matt anger at being taken out of

:46:16.:46:20.

Europe against their will. I have to navigate the best way forward. I am

:46:21.:46:23.

not pretending any of these options are easy. I will try to do it to the

:46:24.:46:28.

best of my ability to the interests of the people that I am elected to

:46:29.:46:32.

serve uppermost in my mind. Thank you very much indeed, First

:46:33.:46:37.

Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. That was Nicola Sturgeon speaking to

:46:38.:46:38.

me earlier. Listening to that and with me now

:46:39.:46:41.

is the Scottish Secretary, Let us begin with this idea of a

:46:42.:46:50.

second independence referendum, as I understand it, it would be within

:46:51.:46:53.

the gift of the British government to see whether that referendum could

:46:54.:46:57.

happen. Do you think your government would or should block it?

:46:58.:47:01.

There are two issues around a future would or should block it?

:47:02.:47:05.

independence referendum, one is whether it could happen. Really it

:47:06.:47:10.

could, but there are process issues. The Big Issue is whether it should

:47:11.:47:14.

happen. I do not believe it should, the people of Scotland, the 2

:47:15.:47:17.

million who voted to remain in the UK in September 2014 are very clear

:47:18.:47:23.

and want to remain part of the UK. Just to clarify, Gordon,

:47:24.:47:30.

independence was not on the referendum ballot paper Barstow

:47:31.:47:32.

Stech, that was not part of the issue. The issue was whether the UK

:47:33.:47:38.

should remain in the EU. Very regrettably from my perspective, the

:47:39.:47:42.

majority of people across the UK voted that the UK should leave the

:47:43.:47:50.

EU, parts of the UK, Scotland, London, Northern Ireland voted that

:47:51.:47:53.

the UK should remain part of the EU and I acknowledge that, but what I

:47:54.:47:59.

do not accept was that that was in anyway a vote for independence, and

:48:00.:48:04.

I think it is very, very unhelpful in this very difficult situation,

:48:05.:48:08.

unchartered waters, I would agree with the First Minister on that,

:48:09.:48:13.

that virtually the first thing that is spoken about, we have hardly got

:48:14.:48:16.

the ink on the decoration of the new referendum dry, before we were

:48:17.:48:20.

having a debate about Scottish independence. What the priority must

:48:21.:48:25.

be, my priority, the same as that of Nicola Sturgeon, is to get the best

:48:26.:48:32.

deal for Scotland from the EU. But if she organises this, is that OK

:48:33.:48:37.

for you as a member of the British government, she -- if she wants to

:48:38.:48:40.

hold another independence referendum?

:48:41.:48:44.

The SNP are trying to exploit this difficult situation to further the

:48:45.:48:47.

cause of independence, entirely predictable. But would you try to

:48:48.:48:55.

stop them? Many people who try to campaign for Remain were clear that

:48:56.:48:56.

this was what would happen. It is campaign for Remain were clear that

:48:57.:49:00.

exactly what has happened. Would you try and stop them? I want to make

:49:01.:49:05.

the argument that we should not have another referendum, I do not want to

:49:06.:49:10.

get into these process arguments. If the people of Scotland are

:49:11.:49:15.

ultimately determined that they want to have another referendum, there

:49:16.:49:17.

will be one, but we in the Conservatives... So you will allow

:49:18.:49:23.

one? There will be one? I am not telling you that. Your government

:49:24.:49:28.

would not try to stop such a referendum? I do not believe that it

:49:29.:49:32.

is any interests in any way... But you have also just said... I do not

:49:33.:49:37.

think the outcome of that would be Scotland leading the UK because I

:49:38.:49:43.

believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK are as

:49:44.:49:46.

compelling up as they were in 2014. But you just said that it should be

:49:47.:49:48.

allowed to happen if people want another referendum? I have said

:49:49.:49:53.

there are two issues, could there be another referendum, yes. Should

:49:54.:49:57.

there be another one, I believe the answer to that is no. You heard what

:49:58.:50:02.

Nicola Sturgeon said at the end of that interview about legislative

:50:03.:50:04.

consent and harder would be the that interview about legislative

:50:05.:50:07.

possibility that the Scottish Parliament could not pass a motion

:50:08.:50:11.

of legislative consent, which could potentially stop Britain leaving the

:50:12.:50:16.

EU, what did you make of that? These are all very speckled death legal

:50:17.:50:19.

and constitutional questions. This is not how we want to take their

:50:20.:50:24.

situation forward. We want to work together, the Scottish Government,

:50:25.:50:27.

the UK Government working together to get the best deal for Scotland

:50:28.:50:33.

with the EU. Now, even before he resigned on Friday morning, David

:50:34.:50:35.

Cameron had spoken to Nicola Sturgeon, undertaking that the

:50:36.:50:39.

Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament be at the heart of the

:50:40.:50:43.

process of re-negotiation. I, myself, met with Fiona Hyslop on

:50:44.:50:47.

Friday afternoon to discuss how we would ensure close working

:50:48.:50:52.

relationships with Scotland at the heart of this discussion. But there

:50:53.:50:57.

is a democratic issue here. You could argue that the people of

:50:58.:51:00.

Scotland want another independence referendum, then that is fine. But

:51:01.:51:04.

of the Scottish Parliament was to try to use legislation to stop

:51:05.:51:09.

Britain exiting the European Union, the argument would be presumably

:51:10.:51:12.

that that is not democratic because we are part of the UK and it was a

:51:13.:51:19.

referendum and a democratic decision of the British people has been made.

:51:20.:51:22.

We must respect for the's result even if we do not like it. It was a

:51:23.:51:27.

UK-wide vote. It was a board by people across the UK as to whether

:51:28.:51:33.

the UK remained in the EU. Unfortunately for my perspective,

:51:34.:51:36.

they voted to be. -- Thursday's result. We are in unchartered water

:51:37.:51:41.

and we must work together. The Scottish Government and the UK

:51:42.:51:46.

Government, it must work together to get the best deal for Scotland from

:51:47.:51:49.

the EU. It should not be about moving the discussion on to another

:51:50.:51:56.

independence referendum. SNP's position is another independence

:51:57.:51:59.

referendum regardless of the outcome for that vote.

:52:00.:52:06.

We must look at the legal mechanism that we go through to get to a

:52:07.:52:11.

situation of the UK. While the Scottish Parliament blocking an exit

:52:12.:52:18.

of Britain be accepted? I do not think that the Scottish

:52:19.:52:20.

Parliament is any position to do that but I have not seen the legal

:52:21.:52:23.

documentation that you have been referring to.

:52:24.:52:27.

What about your personal position? You are a member of the Cabinet. Are

:52:28.:52:33.

you happy to be a member of the Boris Johnson, Michael Gove von

:52:34.:52:38.

Conservative administration? We are about to have a leadership contest

:52:39.:52:42.

in the Conservative Party, we have not heard hoodie runners and riders

:52:43.:52:47.

are. I look forward to hearing who they are and what they have to say.

:52:48.:52:51.

But it think it is a pretty fair assumption that I will not be

:52:52.:52:54.

backing Mr Johnson in that election as he becomes a candidate. Really?

:52:55.:53:02.

Why not? I do not think he is a candidate that can unify the

:53:03.:53:03.

country, I do not mean just got in, candidate that can unify the

:53:04.:53:08.

I mean the whole of the UK. I think that we need someone who at this

:53:09.:53:11.

difficult time can bring the whole of the United Kingdom together and

:53:12.:53:16.

who can work to get Britain, Scotland, the rest of the UK the

:53:17.:53:21.

best deal in the EU and I am not convinced that Boris Johnson is that

:53:22.:53:25.

person. And that person would be who? I am waiting to see who emerges

:53:26.:53:31.

in the leadership election. Are you really? If you are part of

:53:32.:53:35.

the government that presides over the break-up of Europe and possibly

:53:36.:53:40.

the break-up of the UK, that is the break-up of Europe and possibly

:53:41.:53:43.

hardly what you came into politics for, is it? It is not. That is why I

:53:44.:53:45.

hardly what you came into politics want to make sure that is not the

:53:46.:53:48.

case. I do not want to see the UK breaking up. I do not think it is

:53:49.:53:52.

inevitable that it should break up because I beat -- believe the reason

:53:53.:53:55.

is that for having Scotland as part of the UK, Scotland being in the UK,

:53:56.:54:00.

our strong though as they were 18 months ago and I will continue to

:54:01.:54:04.

make the case for that. And like the First Minister, I want to get the

:54:05.:54:08.

best possible deal for Scotland and the rest of the duty as they

:54:09.:54:10.

negotiate the circumstances of our the rest of the duty as they

:54:11.:54:14.

departure from the EU. David Mundell, thank you very much indeed

:54:15.:54:15.

for coming in this morning. Joining me now from London

:54:16.:54:18.

is Shadow Scottish Secretary and Labour's only MP north

:54:19.:54:20.

of the border, Ian Murray. Good afternoon.

:54:21.:54:29.

Argue still a member of the Shadow Cabinet?

:54:30.:54:32.

Just in the last few minutes I have written to Jeremy Corbyn, the leader

:54:33.:54:36.

of the Labour Party, with my resignation from the Shadow Cabinet.

:54:37.:54:40.

That letter has just gone off and will be made public very shortly.

:54:41.:54:46.

Please give us your reasons. We have gone through an incredibly

:54:47.:54:50.

difficult time, not just any party but since the EU referendum result

:54:51.:54:53.

and in the early hours of Friday morning. The Labour Party must be a

:54:54.:54:58.

strong opposition, it has to build a broad coalition to get back into

:54:59.:55:02.

government. We are in this position because the Conservative Party have

:55:03.:55:07.

brought us an EU referendum that nobody really wanted but indeed what

:55:08.:55:10.

they have done this fix their own party and taking a gamble but the

:55:11.:55:13.

country. That has been the wrong thing to do and I think that the

:55:14.:55:16.

Labour Party more than ever needs to be in government, I am just not sure

:55:17.:55:19.

that the country, what people have been telling me in the country, that

:55:20.:55:22.

that can be delivered with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the Labour

:55:23.:55:25.

Party. Hilary Benn said earlier he did not see himself standing will

:55:26.:55:30.

stop do you know who you would like to replace Jeremy Corbyn should he

:55:31.:55:35.

leave? That is a question for another day, it is the hardest

:55:36.:55:40.

political decision I have ever made. But I have done it because I care

:55:41.:55:44.

about my party but more than that, I care about the country. We need a

:55:45.:55:48.

strong Labour Party and opposition ready for government and in

:55:49.:55:52.

government. Especially to stop these mad decisions from the right-wing of

:55:53.:55:55.

the Conservative Party that sent the country both from a UK level and

:55:56.:55:59.

from a Scottish perspective into political turmoil. That is not why

:56:00.:56:03.

people go to the ballot box to vote for politicians and we must resolve

:56:04.:56:07.

that issue. There is a basic problem Ian Murray

:56:08.:56:11.

that there was this massive surge of support for Jeremy Corbyn, something

:56:12.:56:15.

like 2000 members of the Labour Party, most of which probably still

:56:16.:56:20.

supports Jeremy Corbyn. -- 200,000. If Jeremy Corbyn resigned and you

:56:21.:56:25.

have another election, the Labour Party will vote resoundingly to put

:56:26.:56:30.

him back exactly where he is now. It is quite clear, the Labour Party

:56:31.:56:33.

needs to stop speaking to itself. This is why we got into this

:56:34.:56:38.

position both at a UK level and to greater or lesser extent in the

:56:39.:56:42.

Scottish Labour Party in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale is trying to resolve

:56:43.:56:45.

that and is doing a good job of doing that but we have to stop

:56:46.:56:48.

talking to ourselves, it is much bigger than that. Drawn on my own

:56:49.:56:52.

experiences in Edinburgh South and Edinburgh South on that we went back

:56:53.:56:56.

in month of May with Daniel Johnson, we were able to do that because they

:56:57.:56:59.

speak to the entire electorate, not just people that agreed with us, we

:57:00.:57:02.

have that debate and that discussion, we have that argument

:57:03.:57:06.

and develop our own policies and the local manifesto is based on what

:57:07.:57:09.

people tell us. That is important for the Labour Party at the national

:57:10.:57:13.

level to do that and I just do not think that Jeremy Corbyn is able to

:57:14.:57:16.

beat us and be Prime Minister. I am not doing this just in public, I

:57:17.:57:21.

read that on Friday at our emergency Shadow Cabinet meeting. I said to

:57:22.:57:24.

the Shadow Cabinet and Jeremy directly that I did not think at

:57:25.:57:28.

this moment in time he could be by Minister and if he thought he could

:57:29.:57:31.

be Prime Minister, he is speaking to the wrong people and the need to

:57:32.:57:35.

change. His change things that's been Tussac Hilary Benn, I think

:57:36.:57:39.

this is the wrong way to go and it is the final straw for many any

:57:40.:57:41.

Shadow Cabinet to have served for is the final straw for many any

:57:42.:57:44.

Genette Tate for this country but we need change because the Labour Party

:57:45.:57:48.

cannot win a general election in its current state.

:57:49.:57:53.

Can I just quote you something? mentioned Kezia Dugdale, she said

:57:54.:58:03.

yesterday, " I fully support Jeremy Corbyn." I think your interview with

:58:04.:58:11.

the Secretary of State for Scotland has just opened that we are going to

:58:12.:58:17.

end more constitutional turmoil in Scotland. This is not the way the

:58:18.:58:22.

constitution works referendum works. This is about people's livelihoods

:58:23.:58:26.

which is what it has always been about for me. It is about reducing

:58:27.:58:31.

inequality, creating jobs of the future, making sure young people

:58:32.:58:36.

have opportunities and old people have dignity in retirement. You

:58:37.:58:39.

cannot do that by constantly talking about the constitution, constantly

:58:40.:58:43.

throwing the constitution up into the air and hoping the aces last

:58:44.:58:51.

line correctly. The messages coming out, we are not entirely clear,

:58:52.:58:55.

perhaps you can clarify for us. Labour in Scotland now appears to be

:58:56.:59:01.

saying what, it might back independence? Labour in Scotland

:59:02.:59:04.

have been clear. We fully back Nicola Sturgeon in the way she is

:59:05.:59:08.

looking to the negotiate with the European Union. Negotiating to keep

:59:09.:59:14.

Scotland in the European Union. We will keep those stone unturned to

:59:15.:59:19.

see what that will look like. And manifesto is clear we will not

:59:20.:59:22.

support a second referendum but we are leaving all options open at this

:59:23.:59:25.

stage. I do not think it is in anybody was my power at this stage

:59:26.:59:30.

to come to a determination about what is right and what is wrong.

:59:31.:59:34.

We're going to into and constitutional are people. We need

:59:35.:59:40.

to reflect. I am slightly disappointed the debate seems to be

:59:41.:59:43.

dominated by a second independence referendum rather than taking

:59:44.:59:48.

discussions about how we are protected. We want to be in the UK

:59:49.:59:54.

and be in the EU. It is up to us all like to work very strongly to make

:59:55.:59:58.

sure Scotland's position is protected. Can you conceive of a

:59:59.:00:05.

situation where you say you want press for another Scottish

:00:06.:00:07.

referendum but if the government does hold one, with Labour say in

:00:08.:00:12.

the circumstances we think it is in the interests of the people of

:00:13.:00:17.

Scotland to vote for independence, can you conceive of a situation like

:00:18.:00:21.

that? The situation around a second referendum even more difficult today

:00:22.:00:27.

than when polls closed on Thursday. All of the big issues we discussed

:00:28.:00:34.

as an Aussie in 2014 have not got easier, they have got much more

:00:35.:00:39.

difficult. It is incumbent on all politicians to come together and

:00:40.:00:42.

support the First Minister in what she is trying to achieve at EU level

:00:43.:00:46.

and make sure we had the best possible deal for Scotland in what

:00:47.:00:50.

has been a Conservative Party shambles that has been this country

:00:51.:00:55.

into complete and utter disrepute. Do you think there should be a

:00:56.:01:01.

general election? Even the Prime Minister has resigned, given the

:01:02.:01:03.

Conservatives will go through an election to get a new leader I think

:01:04.:01:07.

that may need to go for a mandate but I think the public are

:01:08.:01:10.

incredibly angry and we have to address the issue why so many

:01:11.:01:15.

people, including 40% of Scots, voted to leave the European Union.

:01:16.:01:22.

Do you think Grexit is now set in stone? Do you see any possibility

:01:23.:01:25.

that perhaps after the general election we could negotiate with the

:01:26.:01:35.

European Union. -- Grexit. Do say you can stay in the European Union

:01:36.:01:40.

and not leave? At this particular state politics in the United Kingdom

:01:41.:01:45.

could not rule out anything happening in what has happened over

:01:46.:01:49.

the last few years and few days. The second thing is we have just had a

:01:50.:01:54.

democratic referendum. I am a Democrat and respect the result of

:01:55.:01:58.

that referendum. The majority of people voted to leave and those

:01:59.:02:02.

where the rule set out, a simple majority. We have to make sure the

:02:03.:02:06.

will of the people is carried forward and if anything happens

:02:07.:02:09.

beyond that we will have to take it when it arises. One last point you

:02:10.:02:15.

have written note to Jeremy Corbyn, resigning from his Shadow Cabinet

:02:16.:02:19.

but do you think Jeremy Corbyn himself will resign over the next

:02:20.:02:24.

few days? I think Jeremy Hunt is to reflect himself on with the Labour

:02:25.:02:33.

Party is going. -- Jeremy Corbyn. He has to look at himself and see

:02:34.:02:36.

whether he could be Prime Minister. I think he will find it difficult to

:02:37.:02:41.

answer yes to that question. Here's a decent human being, a lovely man

:02:42.:02:45.

who I get on well with but I do not think he can read the Labour Party

:02:46.:02:52.

and the Prime Minister. Thank you for joining us this morning.

:02:53.:02:55.

Brian Taylor, our political editor, is with me now.

:02:56.:03:00.

You are the master of Scottish exams. Help Marveaux we can see.

:03:01.:03:16.

Help ma boab. -- I think Labour ran a timid campaign which did not

:03:17.:03:27.

energise the support. There were a range of people voting against the

:03:28.:03:36.

European Union. There was anger in some communities in England and in

:03:37.:03:41.

Scotland as well. They saw a dreadful economic situation with the

:03:42.:03:44.

EU not ameliorating it and perhaps making it worse. There were perhaps

:03:45.:03:50.

middle-class and lower middle-class England, a kind of movement of

:03:51.:03:54.

concern towards English identity which had three factors. One, what

:03:55.:04:01.

on earth are the Scots up to. What is happening with the European Union

:04:02.:04:06.

and those came together in a concatenation of a revived English

:04:07.:04:08.

identity that these sort Europe standing against. That is Labour.

:04:09.:04:14.

What did you think about what Nicola Sturgeon said about Holyrood

:04:15.:04:18.

possibly blocking the exit? The Scottish Parliament as to implement

:04:19.:04:24.

European implementation. The things that matter, the single market and

:04:25.:04:29.

the treaties. I think politically there would be a huge resentment

:04:30.:04:33.

from Westminster and England where it to be the case... You heard what

:04:34.:04:41.

she said. These things are tough and rough. If, for example, Scotland had

:04:42.:04:49.

voted yes to independence in 2014 and the Westminster Parliament had

:04:50.:04:52.

used a mechanism to stop that you could see the anger in that. It is

:04:53.:04:59.

likely and deep possible scenario but likely I think not. I was

:05:00.:05:08.

reading a piece you had written on this on Friday, you think Nicola

:05:09.:05:12.

Sturgeon would be reluctant to go for an independence referendum

:05:13.:05:21.

again. She want to hold an independence referendum again? The

:05:22.:05:25.

answer is no. She said if she doesn't she would have to do within

:05:26.:05:30.

two years. The oil price is down from 2014, the currency crisis is

:05:31.:05:38.

still there. The EU exit could empower Scots to feel that or want

:05:39.:05:47.

instability. It is not one of flight, of reaching away from

:05:48.:05:53.

despotism. It is a stone confidence and nations self-determination to

:05:54.:05:57.

want independence. Haps the instability created by Brexit is

:05:58.:06:05.

causing that. She is genuinely seeking alternatives to maintaining

:06:06.:06:08.

Scotland's status in the EU. She is going to seek each of those in turn

:06:09.:06:13.

and I think you will find each of those as frustrated I Deeney to

:06:14.:06:16.

build a relationship with the European Union that is a step on

:06:17.:06:21.

treaty and status. I think she will then come to the conclusion that the

:06:22.:06:24.

only one that is left is something independence. We will have to leave

:06:25.:06:31.

it there. Thank you very much indeed.

:06:32.:06:32.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:06:33.:06:37.

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