26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has


been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour


this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't


going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of


any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What


does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will


replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we


have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the


referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The


country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition


to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you


cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and


listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls


saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and


And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People


who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the


Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can


hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of


the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not


be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour


voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or


the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we


should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.


Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We


did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It


does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union


will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every


electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the


referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party


political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters


and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He


delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young


people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a


success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I


have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came


on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we


need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in


that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to


the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to


the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and


listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left


behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.


Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,


maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but


within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we


want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be


doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in


particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be


hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be


able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European


leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by


Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this


government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who


are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning


and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are


at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that


we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to


provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in


overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some


people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.


I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands


for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the


party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few


months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need


to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...


He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would


you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his


sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.


Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on


-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.


His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I


think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every


electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at


the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part


of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support


for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has


not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me


about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is


part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been


until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is


disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in


the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going


to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best


political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for


another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does


not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would


stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.


You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is


not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your


colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would


not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do


it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder


where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with


us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming


live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,


what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum


result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.


Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have


spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,


decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,


against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I


can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and


months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the


captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well


prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England


have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I


have remained in close contact, including through the night at this


point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is


politically. There is no way of predicting all the political


consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a


significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a


statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must


be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed


everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not


everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man


who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a


conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this


does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less


united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak


to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did


not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may


feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or


any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever


becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing


with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night


before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not


really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.


I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I


have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,


Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never


seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where


we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this


the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose


it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make


any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we


have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule


anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of


reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in


what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final


two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of


my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.


Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.


They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922


Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The


Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy


Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could


be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when


David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question


by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and


there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the


prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,


and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of


reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the


ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we


have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is


critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and


answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership


contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.


APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the


length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were


difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also


pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better


levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the


European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign


Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans


emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow


Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to


have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the


referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same


on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of


the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of


the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.


Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with


Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow


Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy


Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for


the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism


among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been


brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy


Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune


with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are


very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive


committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there


is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy


Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn


is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his


Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he


fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a


scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the


second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the


numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to


remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken


it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it


in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the


same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry


is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our


disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a


massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell


says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow


Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly


Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is


Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.


He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his


mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to


wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any


other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest


Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key


question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next


Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?


I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see


someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron


did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really


is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is


seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was


the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm


sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still


interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so


horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to


leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a


bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.


I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all


have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same


page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always


thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated


timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am


having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is


strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on


manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,


we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong


signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if


it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does


he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the


members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly


popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a


national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time


of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.


We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going


to happen. You may currently be


unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half


the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the


Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that


unlocks our membership of the European Union,


chances are we will all become very familiar with it over


the next months and years. The UK will be the first country


to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately


vague so that each member state can decide how


and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,


it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has


effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership


contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,


the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts


in the European Commission. What will be the substance


of the talks? Our budget contributions will be


discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats


and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU


financial programmes in the UK are phased out,


and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights


conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have


to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,


and will require ratification from each of the 27


national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been


hammered out, it will be put to the European Council


and will need support from a qualified majority,


at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,


it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,


the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote


of the council. There we are, much more of that to


come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former


Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted


Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union


for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out


of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we


have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the


consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe


will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this


process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three


months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in


shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think


it is important for the country to see what are the actual


consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options


are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including


President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just


apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What


do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the


result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain


to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got


to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela


Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she


has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,


and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best


for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that


relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre


these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also


have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what


have a big responsibility to help is going to be an agonising and


highly complicated process of defining a new relationship with


Europe. The odd thing about this referendum, when you think about it,


it's like saying to someone, right, you are going to swap your house.


You know where you live but you will swap it for another house. And right


now, we can give you two people, you cannot see that the house but we can


give you two people who tell you what they think. One says this house


will be fantastic, great for you, and the other says this house is


structurally on sound, you will hate it. We have taken the decision to


swap homes, if you like, without having seen what the other thing


looks like. Over this period of time, we will see what it looks


like. We will then get right into the detail because the detail


matters. For example financial services, if we don't have the EU


passport for our financial services, what does that mean for the City of


London? You could get thousands of jobs going so how do you preserve


it? What does the car industry do? We have hundreds of thousands of


jobs dependent on it. I think the detail will really matter and we


need to take our time over this so that the country also carries on


being engaged in a debate about what this really means. But what would


you advise Boris Johnson and Michael Gove to go for in terms of the


overall relationship? The details will take a long while, I understand


that, but broadly what kind of relationship would you advise them


to have going forward? I think one that preserves as much as we can of


our access to the market in Europe because that is essential, I mean


half of our trade is with Europe, but secondly which allows us at


least some decisions that will be made that have a direct bearing on


Britain. One of the things that so curious about this whole process is


that we are an independent country, we are an independent country now. I


say to people, I think the ten years I had as by Minister, I cannot think


of a single decision that Europe said to me I had to make or I


couldn't make other than those to do with Europe specifically. We will


now be in this new relationship with Europe, we have got to work out what


is in our interests. We have got to understand something as well, I


think it is very important about where the country is today. I think


it is deeply divided. The Leave camp won, but 48% voted Remain. I think


there was a lot of dismay and anger among that 48%. I think a lot of


young people particularly feel their future has been changed in a way


they profoundly disagree with. And so, if there is a desire in the


Leave camp to try to bring the country back together, if there is a


maturity there in the politics of Leave, we have also got to show a


majority for the politics of Remain and work out how we do this best for


the country but that argues for a negotiating process which allows the


country at every stage to see, this is the reality. It is no longer


about claims and counterclaims. Do you rule out another referendum? As


I'm looking at it here, I can't see how we would do that. You will have


a reality to test yourself against. For example, in the last few days


there has been this vast crash in the financial markets, something


like $3 trillion has been wiped out financial markets globally, the


pound has obviously fallen dramatically, but maybe studies


itself in the days to come. The British people and the Europeans


need to see that reality. Maybe as we get into it, there are companies


that say, we are perfectly happy, we can live with the new arrangement,


others say, we can't. If we finally see the structure, what is in the


new house, we see the house we will now move into outside the EU, should


that go for a referendum? As I say, I cannot see how you would go


through the mechanics of another referendum now, but on the other


hand there will be a lot of people in the country that say, let's have


a look at this. Parliament will want to look at it. Remember, the one


thing, again what was strange and unsatisfactory about the referendum


campaign is the devil really is in the detail with this. I was trying


to say to people, if you are deciding whether to join the


European Union, that is one kind of debate, but when you are deciding


whether to leave after four decades of membership, with intricate


relationships, we need to see that. We need to see for example who will


win that battle in French politics between those who say the border


should go back to Dover now or the border will stay in Calais. All of


these things I think are low us now to be, now we are going to see the


new home, now we will look at it and test it, we will be going round it,


we will be seeing what it really means. And so in a sense, what I'm


saying is we have a divided country but I think there is the possibility


of bringing people back together if we are sensible about it and don't


let our dismay on either side of this argument get the better of our


judgment. Why did Remain lose? I don't think that is very hard to


work out. You could buy the wake of this type of referendum anywhere in


Europe at the moment and you would have the potential for the result to


be the same. One of the things I think is important for us as we go


into this European negotiation, it is Europe can take one of two views.


They can say, get out as fast as possible. The other thing they could


do and maybe they should do when they reflect about it, if we


approach this negotiation sensibly, is to think the British had their


referendum but actually we have the same strains of opinion and the same


anxieties in our own countries, let's think about how we deal with


those and let's not look upon the Brits as outliers. They were always


difficult in Europe, now we have got rid of the difficult people. No,


every country is anxious about the effect of globalisation on jobs and


so on. I think it is not hard to see why Leave won. Personally I think it


is a very serious mistake for us but there it is. It's not hard to see


how they win. You still haven't told me why they won. Because when you


take a dissatisfaction with the status quo politically and anxiety


about flat-lining incomes, worries about immigration particularly, and


immigration has always been... Let's be very clear, you and I go back 30,


40 years. Immigration has always been an issue. Where you mobilise


opinion around it, particularly when the British media are prepared to


take your platform and run with it, a referendum in those circumstances


is going to be a tough thing. But immigration has never been bigger


and a lot of the British people felt not so much about the numbers coming


in, as it is very well for these politicians to let the people in but


they are not building the schools and hospitals. They are not building


the public services that we need if these numbers are to go and they


felt the British political elite on the left and right were not


listening to them and they may have been right.


I thought my last election campaign on immigration. I know what a strong


issue it is. But the answer to the problems and the pressures from


Eastern Europe in particular, because I think the Eastern European


is make a good contribution to this country. You did not build the


houses for them coming in, neither did the last Labour government, and


this government has not built enough? That was the reaction. I


would suggest it is also why the Labour Party could not mobilise its


vote for a massive turnout for movie Mac. -- Remain. You were the man


that made the Labour Party love the EU. That is true. We invested


massively in these communities, in education and health care care


particularly. What not in housing? Housing is a real issue. We have to


take it seriously. The right way to deal with it is to have a housing


policy for the population as a whole. The other thing about


immigration, it all gets lumped together. I think a lot of people's


anxieties about immigration were not centred around those from Europe of


those from outside Europe, however, I do except there were communities,


and when people see their communities changing around them as


a result of an influx of people, you have got to deal with that. Yes, I


agree, but the answer is not to get out of Europe. Would your side


perhaps have won if Labour had not fought such a half hearted campaign?


I have made my comments on the campaign. What is important for us


is to make sure that our own people understand why we were so passionate


about staying in Europe. None of the problems that our voters face,


problems and pressures on housing, jobs, health care, education, they


will might be resolved by leaving Europe. One of the things that will


also happen over the months to come is that as this reality, I keep


seeing, now you can test this by reality, as that sinks in, there


will be lots of Labour voters that realised this was not a smart move


that the country has made. This morning, after the sacking of Hilary


Benn, a prominent supporter of movie Mike -- Remain in the Shadow


Cabinet, there seems to be amounting to inside the Parliamentary Labour


Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should there be at two? I was coming on


this programme to talk about Europe. -- a coup. I understand why you have


to ask me. I know nothing more than I have read in the newspapers and


seen on in years. This is for the Parliamentary party. It is not


helpful for me to intervene, so I am not going to.


The former Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking to me


But not about Labour's mounting troubles today. They have just got


more serious. Another Labour MP, Ivan Lewis, who is running for M --


for me than Manchester, has called on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. --


for mayor. Now Jo Coburn is here


with us this morning. She's high up on the rooftops,


casting her eye over events Events are so fast moving


politically, the next Prime Minister in the Conservative Party


leadership, and what happens to the UK after Brexit. Let's get some


reaction from a former cabinet minister.


With me now is the former Cabinet Minister Francis Maude,


who was a Europe minister under Margaret Thatcher and negotiated


You never made it clear before the referendum what side you were wrong.


Can you tell us no? I am not going to see which way I voted until May


direct my memoirs many years from now. You surprised by the result? I


thought it would be a narrow victory for Remain but there was lots of


anxiety around. My concern is that this is not a binary thing. The


referendum result? The referendum clearly was, and it has to be, all


or nothing, yes or no. The reality is, for quite some time, we have


been a 65% per participant in the European Union. We are not part of


the currency, or the Schengen agreement. At the end of this


process, we should not be a nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said


yesterday we are European nation. We will continue to be. The result of


this cannot be pulling up the drawbridge into some sort of


isolation. That is the language you're using, but the fact is the UK


has voted to leave the European Union. Negotiations will start. They


should not be rushed. They should not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was


right when he said it is neither in Britain's or in the EU's interest


for it to be rushed. There is a debate in the EU. People are talking


about what happened in Britain on Thursday, but that is not a


completely unique British phenomenon. But no one else has left


the EU. There is anxiety about the direction of the EU in other


countries, for example, the Netherlands. When I was doing


European stuff 24 years ago, that was the most deeply pro-EU country


that there was. That debate within the EU that someone spotted, Donald


Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel has spotted it, that carrying on and


assuming that this rigid doctrine, one size fits all, that approach,


assuming that is the only way you can go, if that continues to be the


case, there is a severe danger that the EU will spring apart. You think


this could trigger a series of events that could be the beginning


of the end for the EU? Unlettered reacts in a grown-up, sensible way.


Why would it do that? I have heard European leaders saying that


actually we have to see Great Britain, the United Kingdom, heard


by leaving the EU, or what signal does it send to the one else? The


signal it would send is it as an organisation which is willing to


self harm in order to protect the very narrow, rigid approach to how


countries collaborate and work together. Britain is the fifth


biggest economy in the world, the biggest trading partner with our


partners in the EU. To do something which damaged our economy


deliberately would actually damage the European Union as well. Talking


of harm... Europe would pretty soon start sneezing if we caught the


cold. What about the Conservative Party? Lots of people were shocked


when David Cameron resigned on Friday morning? Where you? I was


disappointed. He has been an excellent Prime Minister and has led


some excellent reforms. I sat round the Shadow Cabinet table with him


for ten years and I am full of admiration for the leadership they


give the party. It has to be his decision. I understand his view that


the negotiations about the new arrangements of Britain's


relationship with Europe has to be undertaken by someone who has been


in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson? I have worked closely with Boris,


Michael Gove, I am full of admiration for him. There are some


very serious candidates. They would give the right leadership in the


country and the party. Is Boris Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea,


I am not in the House of Commons, so I do not know. In terms of advice,


let's imagine Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are part of the


negotiating team once there is a leadership contest. What would you


say to them? The starting point, so far as economic relationship with


our current partners in the European Union is concerned, the starting


point should be that others need to show why we should not be able to


trade on the same kind of bases that we do at the moment. Bielik Norway,


or Switzerland? Nothing has to be quite so one size fits all as you're


suggesting. There is no single model. Britain is the fifth biggest


economy in the world. It is a different kind of relationship. It


has always had a different kind of relationship within the European


Union. This will be another different relationship in the


future, unique and distinctive. When people start saying, of course,


Britain cannot be part of the single financial market, the answer is, why


not? You need to show why. Everyone has been saying that Europe as well


as Britain benefits from being in the single financial market. Why


would you want to commit an act of self harm to deny that? You sound as


though it will be smooth and straightforward, Britain will get


what it once in terms of the benefits of being in the EU, despite


having left, and none of the things that the goal voted on, freedom of


movement for example? Freedom of movement is coming under criticism,


absolute freedom of movement, as it is framed at the moment, it has been


coming under criticism from many parts of the political spectrum,


both in Britain and across the EU. What was part of their original deal


was freedom of movement of labour, people moving to where they had


jobs. That is different from what we have seen at the moment, which is


what is cause such concern, not just in Britain but in other parts of the


European Union. I'll do surprise but the reaction of European Union, --


European Union leaders, foreign ministers, who are saying that this


is not an amicable divorce, telling Britain to get on with it? It


depends on who you talk to. Donald Tusk has not been speaking in that


kind of language. Angela Merkel has not been speaking in that kind of


language. It depends on who you listen to. There is no sense for


European neighbours to be acting in a way that deliberately harms


Britain because, by harming Britain, they harm themselves. If you inflict


deliberate damage and your nearest neighbour, your biggest trading


partner, that has a blowback effect on them as well. When tempers cool,


I understand they are irritated by all of this, but when it comes down,


and people start to think about what is in their collective


self-interest, then I think you start to get a more rational, more


sensible approach, which does not need to be full of hostility and


anger. Have you been approached to be part of the negotiating team? I


have not. Would you say yes? You have had experience and you're


familiar with negotiating within the EU. I am not pitching for that. I


have left the front line in politics and I am happily engaged in a new


phase of my life. But it really matters that we get this right and I


would be happy to advise whoever is the new government, if they wanted


to hear advice. Should the key negotiating team be full of people


who campaigned to leave? I think it needs to be pretty broad. This was


not a massive vote. It was decisive and clear, there is no room for


argument, but it was not a massive vote to leave. I think the new


government and Prime Minister will need to take his or her role as


leader of the nation as seriously as the role as leader of the party.


Francis Maude, thank you very much. Back to you, Andrew. I have the


words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP who is running for the mayor of


Manchester. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn cannot lead us back to


government and there is a real risk we will suffer worse election result


than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No more shadow ministers have resigned


so far. Maybe some of them having second thoughts after they watched


interview with John McDonnell. I am joined now by one of the


Conservative's leading Leave campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your


road map for getting out of the EU? We need to have the establishment of


the unit in Whitehall, which I would like to see Derek Rae answerable to


Number 10 rather than the Foreign Office of the Treasury, to begin


discussions with our European partners ahead of what would be a


trigger for Article 50. Presumably when we have a new Prime Minister in


place. You go along with the existing prime ministers's


timetable, that Article 50 begins the formal Brexit process? You do


not want a trigger that before the autumn? No. It makes sense to decide


our position in the UK. We have to put mechanics in place, increase the


size of the Foreign Office, established a trade department. We


will want to see as members of Parliament tomorrow what work has


been done in preparation for a Brexit. This idea that no


contingency planning was done is preposterous. That would have been


responsible. We will want to see what work has been done and we will


have to get such a unit under way so that there is no vacuum being


created. I have heard some people in the Leave campaign saying it could


be later than the autumn that we begin the formal process. The end of


the year, the beginning of the new Year. That would be difficult. You


would be looking to get an exit from the European Union at the beginning


of the year. The financial year of the European Union is at the start


of the calendar year. That would bring added complications. You want


to get it tidied up. We want to see a process that means we can leave


the European Union on the 1st of January 2019. That seems like a


reasonable timetable. European leaders, particularly those in


Brussels, the president of the commission and so on, they do not


want to wait. They want to start the discussion is now. They may not want


to agree to your ideal formal discussions therefore we present the


Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal talks. Article 50 only gets


triggered when there is a letter or a clearer definition. It is only


Britain that can trigger it? Yes. What the European bureaucrats on,


the ones that are on elected and not answer book to anyone, their


attitude is different to the Chancellor of Germany, who herself


is facing real action next year. You will see an increasing split between


the on elected bureaucrats with no one to answer two and politicians


with real economies to manage. You are confident we can get meaningful,


informal discussions to sketch out some principles, not necessarily


details, this side of triggering Article 50?


Yes and we need to begin soon because there will be a willingness


from our elected parliament to be in those discussions. The brothel --


Brussels bureaucracy regard as impertinent to wanted to have leave


the European Union, but we have got to do it quickly because we have got


to show we have some momentum in this. Otherwise, if we create a


vacuum it is a recipe for instability. Who should head up our


negotiations? That is up to the Prime Minister but I think there


needs to be a mixture of people who understand the views of trade


experts... But who should lead, Michael Gove? He is an excellent


suggestion, we also have Peter Lilley, who was involved in one of


the most recent trade rounds, but we need to get it under way and


Parliament needs to see what preparatory work needs to be done.


Since we voted to leave, Nigel Farage has said it was a mistake to


promise more money for the NHS. Dan Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave


campaign never promised a radical decline in immigration. So


continuing with the Department of honesty, can we now agree that there


is an extra 350 million quid a week to spend on other public services?


An extra 10 billion per year, but of course that is only available once


we have actually left the European Union, which will be 2019, and those


decisions have to be taken by the Government of the day. That will be


very different from the one we have now. It is a long time in the future


but what the Leave campaign, and what people didn't grasp was that it


wasn't an election, they were reluctant to give future governments


greater choice over the actions they could pursue if they wanted. So I


will log that the 350 is more like 160. Will the Tory department


whittle down the leadership hopefuls to a short list of two by the time


the Parliament across the road goes off to the summary says on July the


21st? It is a decision that will be taken by the 1922 committee. I think


we should have a timetable similar to the one we had in 2005, not least


because our party membership will be involved in the decision. What was


that timetable? We didn't have the MPs' ballot until after the party


conference so people could see a range of candidates they might have.


So you would like a beauty parade at the Tory party conference in the


first week of October that includes all of the Tory candidates? That is


what we did last time, that was the system that produced David Cameron's


election. Then the party... Know, first the House of Commons would


have to reduce five or six candidates down to two, then the


party and the country would have to decide who is right so the Prime


Minister may be there until November. Potentially, under that


timetable. I don't think that has huge drawbacks because we need to


get that period of the pre-talks under way, then you have the new


Prime Minister and can trigger article 50. Is it realistic to have


a lame duck government from the end of June until the beginning of


November? My view is that having that period does not make a huge


difference to the process, but it might make a better choice for


leadership and a better process for the party. And if it is a beauty


parade at the party conference, William Fox be part of that beauty


parade? I don't know, I haven't decided yet. I am thinking about it,


I will make a decision once I have spoken to my colleagues in


Parliament this week. And if you're hat is not in the ring, do you have


a favourite you would support? I might have and you will be among the


first million to know, Andrew! Thank you for that, Liam Fox.


Well, Friday was a pretty dramatic day.


But Thursday was also a pretty dramatic night.


Adam Fleming once again behind the scenes at


It is referendum night, so call in someone who has done it all before.


How does this compared to presenting it in 1975? I cannot remember


anything about 1975 except my hair was brown and not white. What were


you doing in 1975? Were you born? I was a twinkle in my father's eye. We


are going to have to do things the old-fashioned way, wait for the


results to come in one by one. Early to declare Sunderland went Leave's


away by more than they had expected. Newcastle opted for remain by not --


but not by a lot. It felt very close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know


what is happening at this point? No, and I have just responded to a tweet


sent by a colleague. And still we start to see results from the south


east, because the Remain come out predicating a win on a good showing


in London, Surrey, East Sussex, Hampshire, that sort of area. Until


I see some results elsewhere, no, not yet. In between, politicians did


radio interviews in strange places. Come round here, and there is Amber


Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the kitchen. I am waiting to do an


interview, it is living the dream. I will have an Americano with a dash


of milk. Labour areas, lots of them voted out, but according to Labour


that was actually a good thing. What do you think when you see that? It


is what I was expecting. I have been saying all the way along it will be


touch and go, really close. This has demonstrated exactly where the


country is, fairly Eurosceptical but pragmatic and wants to remain


within. Whichever way it goes, I think there will be a few percentage


points either way and Jeremy will be a reflection of how the country


feels and that is what you want in a leader. The percentages were not


going Remain's away, as proved by the miserable faces up their party.


Brexit campaigners like Jacob Rees-Mogg started to think about


dreams of their own. I'm opening a fete on Saturday


and that will be a great celebration Actually, I promised


to take my four-year-old to the toy shop because it was his birthday


yesterday and he can He may get a slightly better present


if there is a Brexit. Finally, just before 5:00am,


David Dimbleby declared The decision taken in 1975 by this


country to join the Common Market has been reversed by this referendum


to leave the EU. The action moved from the studio


to Westminster and they denouement I love this country and I feel


honoured to have The Prime Minister going,


Britain's destiny changed, David Cameron's early morning


announcement of his resignation on Friday fired the starting gun


on the first Conservative leadership To stand for the party leadership,


candidates only need to be If more than two candidates stand,


a ballot of MPs whittles that down via first past the post,


until they are left Those two are then put to the full


membership of the party, said to be about 150,000 strong,


who decide the winner David Cameron has said he wants


a successor in place by the Conservative Party conference


in Birmingham, which starts But it will be the backbench 1922


Committee which decides They will meet tomorrow to set


the process in train. I'm joined now by the Deputy


Chairman of the Conservative Party Is it not inconceivable, given that


the country has voted to leave the EU, that it can be anything but a


Brexit leader to take over? That may be the case but it will be up to the


members and Parliamentary party to decide. My point is that, given the


way the country has voted, given the Conservative Party voted even more


that way to leave, that you need to have a leader that embodies... Was


there for the fight on that side. It may be that the party membership


decides for those reasons to vote for a Brexit leader, but it may be


that they vote for someone over all who they think will best serve the


country and party, it is just unknown. Will they be likely to


trust somebody that said vote to remain to head up the divorce


negotiations to leave? I don't think that will come into the equation


because the country has voted to leave, I don't believe in the second


referendum. I believe our party has moved forward now so people want to


consider a range of things. Who are the main candidate in your view? Who


knows, because no one has put themselves forward yet. Clearly


Boris will be one of them, maybe Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about


Theresa May? We haven't heard from her. I'm sure we will hear from


people over the next week. Including Theresa May? She seems to be missing


in action. We will see. Are George Osborne's leadership hopes now in


toast? We will see. The country has made its decision. You are reluctant


remainer, is that fair? Yes, because with the terrorism I believe it is


better to be in an alliance of democracy. I think as a party we


have faced three existential challenges. One is in terms of how


people perceive us and whether we are seen as a passionate


Conservative Party, second way in terms of our infrastructure. If we


are honest or infrastructure is dying in the country and our


membership is ageing, and thirdly it will be best at restoring party


unity. I want someone who will deal with those serious issues that


really threaten our existence as a party. They are even more relevant


because the Labour Party will get its act together and get rid of


Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue has destroyed the careers of the


last three Conservative prime ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John


Major, now David Cameron. Is there any chance now the country has taken


the decision to leave that it doesn't become the toxic issue it


has been for your party? I think we should follow perhaps the 11th


commandment for every conservatism, pessimism is a luxury know one


should allow themselves. Obviously the renegotiations will be difficult


but we need to move on and discuss other issues that are facing the


country. Finally, what do you make of what Liam Fox has told this


programme, that rather than MPs rushing to create the short list of


two names that then goes to the wider Conservative Party and the


country, to do that by July the 21st with summer hustings and a


combination of the Tory conference if I can put it that way, that in


fact it should all be on hold until the Tory conference and that you


should have hustings there, then whittle it down to two, and have a


new leader by the beginning of November. My own feeling is that it


will be up to 1922 and the membership to decide. I would prefer


that we don't go on forever choosing a leader. I think we need a new


leader for the stability of the country, but we need someone who


will put compassionate conservatism at the forefront.


Your fellow MPs have to get a short list of two by July the 21st? Am not


telling them, but we should have a leadership contest sooner rather


than later, because the country needs stability. I will take that as


a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very much.


It's not just Her Majesty's Government


feeling the after-shocks of


Plates also appear to be shifting for Her Majesty's


Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn


from his Shadow Cabinet last night and facing a vote of no confidence


at tomorrow's meeting of the


The secret ballot will not have any formal status,


but backers hope it will embolden others to speak out,


and build an unstoppable momentum against their leader.


So far, MPs, including Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field,


Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt, have already said they


However, in order to depose a sitting Labour leader,


a challenger will have to put themselves forward,


and receive the support of 20% of the party's MPs.


There are currently 229 Labour MPs, so 46 would have to back


the leadership challenge by writing to general secretary Iain McNicol


If a nominee secures that level of support,


a contest will be held at the party's autumn conference,


taking place in Liverpool at the end of September.


If any further MP wanted to enter the race, they would also need


Voting takes place on a one member, one vote basis by Labour members,


affiliates and registered supporters.


If more than two candidates stand, voters will rank their preferences.


If no candidates get above 50% on first preference,


the last placed candidate is eliminated and their vote


is transferred until one gets above the threshold.


We are now hearing that another Shadow Cabinet minister has


resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of the younger intake of Labour


politicians from the North, ought to be in tune with what Labour needs to


do in the North. With me now is the Shadow Defence


Secretary Emily Thornberry. Are you going to resign? No, and I


can tell you why. I think that at a time like this, when the Tory party


is pulling themselves apart, when nobody has any idea with the country


ought to go next, the challenge for the Labour Party is to show some


leadership. And to be a centre of composure, to think about where we


are going, and I think we should be thinking about the nation first.


What is happening in your Shadow Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do


not really understand it. We had a Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and


there were lots of opportunities than for people to express what they


thought. I made it clear that the defence of UI have been working on


for the last 56 months would need to be redrafted. I would need to think


again about it. In light of what is happening? Yes, it has a big impact


on defence. It was disappointing for me but the important thing is we


remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important


thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at


what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to


show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall


times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership


challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues


in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they


seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the


referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that


Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory


in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the


campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David


Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in


this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David


Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about


his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being


blue on blue. When I spoke to David Cameron during the referendum


campaign, he was complaining he was having to do all the heavy lifting.


He was not just complaining about the lack of support from the Labour


Party, but from the Tories as well. Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn


making his mark? Jeremy made 30 speeches up and down the country.


There was very little space us to get inserted into that debate.


People criticise Jeremy for saying that he was only in favour of the


European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I think that was truthful and real,


and it reflected the views of lots of people in the country. Lots of


people will have voted to remain. Those on the fence would have


questioned whether they were in favour. Jeremy's voice was more


truthful. Does that mean he is a better leader than David Cameron? I


suspect it does. When did Jeremy Corbyn complain he was not been


allowed to do more? We were always complaining. I went to Birmingham


with half of the women from the Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in


workplaces and so on. What was the coverage we got? There was a little


clip, a film of us going into summer, and the voice-over being,


nobody knows what Labour says on the referendum. Nonsense. You can


complain you did not get the media coverage you wanted. That is true. I


do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to accept one-on-one interviews. There


were plenty of offers. In the end, I think he did one on Sky News in the


evening. If he was champing at the bit to get it across, why did they


not agree to do more interviews and programmes like this? The truth is


that Jeremy had a straightforward response to the referendum. I think


he should have been given an opportunity to get that out more. If


he had been able to, that would have rung true with the country. I'll so


think the Jeremy was also elected less than a year ago and 60% of the


membership voted in his favour. Now is not the time for us to go for a


leadership challenge, this is nonsense. We have you here, arguing


your case, effectively as always. It is not true of all Labour people. I


think that Mr Watson has been to Glastonbury. I am not quite sure


what the silent disco is. There he is, the deputy leader of the Labour


Party. Would you rather be there with him or here with me? I would


always rather be with you. I knew you would say that. What would use


it to your colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party to face


this motion of no confidence that could be placed before the PLP


tomorrow night? I am told there could be a majority forehead. I do


not think there will be a motion of no confidence tomorrow night. They


could vote the next day? Or the week afterwards, depending on how you


interpret it. Could you lose? I think members of Parliament need to


look at what the country is calling out for. The country is calling out


for the Labour Party to step up and show an alternative. We must do that


in a unified way. There is not the time for internal fighting. It is


quite marketable we have a Prime Minister who has just resigned,


there will not be a new Prime Minister at least until the


beginning of October, if Liam Fox gets his way, it may not be until


November. And the Labour Party is in the middle of its own turmoil as


well. I have covered situations where one party has been in turmoil


and the other one has taken advantage, but you are now both in


turmoil. It is unprecedented? I agree, and the future is in hands.


It is up to us, what we decide to do in the next few days. I will urge my


colleagues to take a responsible view of this and think of the


country first. The country needs us to be there. You're right, the


Tories went into this, the two parts of the Tories, the Brexiteers went


in not knowing what would happen if we got the Leave vote, and the


government went in with no plan B. There is no plan at the moment, and


our country needs a party to step up and do that role. That is what we


should be doing. What do you say to those Labour supporters, not


members, but supporters and voters, in the heartlands of the North and


the Midlands, who did not follow your party's advise? They voted in


substantial numbers to leave. They do not think that this Labour Party


represents them. What do you say to them? One thing that came out


clearly from this Brexit vote, is that half the country feels that the


system does not help them. They are getting a raw deal, and whether that


is because they cannot get their kids housing, or because they are


having problems with their jobs and their terms and conditions, weather


data not get access to public services, all these things are


wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy is that we have answers to that


nationally, and if we have a decent government prepared to address those


issues, perhaps people would have a slightly different view. Now we have


to reach out and speak to them. We must not do what happened after the


Scottish referendum, when the Labour Party turned in on itself. We have


running out of time. Can you give me a one sentence inkling of how your


defence review might change? There is a question of how we defend


borders now. If the GDP goes, we're 2% of GDP being spent on defence.


What happens if GDP goes through the floor? Will have cuts? I also think


that the EU and Nato two sides of the same coin. International


relationships will change. A whole range of things will be affected.


Thank you very much, Emily Thornberry.


Now, as one union was broken with the vote on Thursday,


the fate of another came into sharp focus.


In Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of the


SNP said the option of a second referendum


on independence was now very much back on the table after Scotland


voted by a significant margin in favour of


remaining within the EU, only for votes elsewhere


in Britain to swing the


Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew


At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are


inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the


best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a


sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other


parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour


develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First


Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland


been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of


allowing us to be so will be devastating.


Well, Scotland's not the only part of the


UK where there are calls for constitutional change


In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British


withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for


I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister


of Northern Ireland, Martin


Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,


what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a


very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made


up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in


Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British


government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European


Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland


solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the


Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of


days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government


would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of


Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been


focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of


people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I


Foreign Minister on Friday and I Foreign Minister on Friday and I


have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.


Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming


desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to


remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use


your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll


was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think


you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just


as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in


Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just


from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not


say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that


exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the


future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how


we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my


focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions


with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the


discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you


consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted


to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that


we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in


Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take


account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of


Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with


the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some


distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have


more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where


our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue


to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not


against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be


one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the


whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which


has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of


decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the


dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the


prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious


undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of


foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to


pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you


cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on


Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the


UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special


arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes


of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who


wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with


very senior officials and governmental authorities within


Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are


focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be


how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the


north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates


which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of


course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has


clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the


whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime


Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a


We now have Gloria De Piero's resignation letter, and a letter


from Margaret Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy


Corbyn should consider his position. When he did engage she was


half-hearted, and in the end of Labour Party members and voters


didn't know where the leader really stored. That is the latest from


there. We have reassembled just for a few minutes before we go to the


nations and regions our dream team panel. So we have a lame duck


government, the dysfunctional opposition, and we voted to leave


the EU. Anything else happening in politics today? It doesn't look like


these resignations are petering out. It is only about an hour since the


last one! I think Gloria De Piero is very significant because she was a


close ally of Tom Watson, it looks like it is picking up steam now. She


is one of those Labour MPs from the north. She had been in the media but


is one of those Labour MPs from the seemed to be firmly rooted in the


north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is


significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a


rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge


between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else


is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential


unravelling of the UK itself. In the moment, there is the potential


vacuum of leadership which has emerged since Friday morning, David


Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being weak in his position, the closest


thing I have seen in leadership is Nicola Sturgeon north of the border.


You may or disagree with her position but she has a plan. The


markets will be opening at 7am tomorrow here in London. The


sterling, the FTSE could take a knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister


now have to give a clear idea of where Britain goes now? Of the


beginning of the informal talks, the process. Even though he is on his


way out, isn't his duty to steady the ship? The biggest question is


where on earth is the Chancellor in all of this. He is responsible in


overseeing what will happen in the next few days in terms of the


economy. We have that dignified and next few days in terms of the


reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of


England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is


nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,


I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the


people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's


sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up


together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next


leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the


so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn


so they may have a fight on their hands.


It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.


Drama hardly begins to describe the events of the past


It's yes to Brexit but nobody seems to know what happens next.


Scotland, along with Northern Ireland and London,


voted to remain, the rest of the UK voted to leave.


I've been speaking to the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon


And no switching, folks, I think you'll want to hear


what she has to say about Scotland possibly stopping Brexit.


David Cameron says Scotland should be involved in the Brexit


negotiations but will his successor be so accommodating?


I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary David Mundell.


Jeremy Corbyn loses Hilary Benn and half of his Shadow Cabinet


are said to be threatening to resign if he doesn't stand down.


I'll be asking the Shadow Scottish Secretary, well, is he still


Otto von Bismarck once famously remarked that man cannot control


the current of events, merely float with them and steer.


Well, as things stand, it looks like David Cameron has


proved this ancient adage wrong by creating the current,


steering the country onto the rocks then jumping ship,


leaving others to work out how and where this country heads next.


Only one thing looks certain now, for England and Wales that future


European influences are etched into Edinburgh 's Mac architecture. From


the Dutch ecclesiastical style of the Tron Kirk, the Italian


renaissance of George Herriot's school. The Spanish coast modernism


of the Scottish Parliament. In the spirit of the old Alliance Edinburgh


has long maintained strong links with Europe. Little wonder it was


Scotland's most remain city. Victoria is no voters were told


staying in the union was the only Victoria is no voters were told


way to remain in Europe and many also believe they had more in common


with the North of England and the Northern Isles but last week all


that changed. The total number of votes cast in favour of leave was 80


2000. England and Wales defied the pollsters and voted to leave while


Scotland voted to remain. Let June 23 go down in our history as our


Independence Day. The nation had a rude awakening on Friday morning but


as the refined implications of Brexit have become clear there is a


palpable sense of anger among many Scots. They are asking the southern


neighbours, what on earth have you done? I think there are going to be


very many people who looked not just that the result of the referendum


but at the tone of the European referendum debate and don't want to


be dragged either out of Europe against our will or dragged along


with this right wing tendency which is gaining momentum. The idea that


we were going to be happy being governed by Boris Johnson I think


will double the great many people in Scotland. The SNP election manifesto


was clear, if Scotland was taken outside the EU against its well


Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum on


independence. The First Minister hinted on Friday there may be other


options. I want to make it absolutely clear today that I intend


to take all possible steps and explore all options to get affect to


how people in Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our


continuing place in the EU and in the single market in particular.


Options short of Independence will have been discussed at yesterday's


Scottish Cabinet meeting. It is not clear what they might be. The UK


could follow the example of the kingdom of Denmark. While Denmark


itself remains part of the EU agreement voted to exit. And the


islands which are also part of the Danish realm are not part of the EU


either. Could something like this be possible here? The fact that the


leather precedent for art of a member state leaving means it is


possible. We also have the conversed, comic the unification of


Germany where part of an existing state now was admitted in the


unification process. Though, they'd is a certain amount of flexibility


and differentiate relationships we can point to other nothing that


exactly fits in the model we have right now. For supporters of


independence the way forward is clear. He pulled this morning


suggests support has soared to 59% up many of the main challenges


remain and they are additional ones, too. It is likely to become


independent but it is not certain because there are many obstacles in


the way of Scottish independence. The questions about public finances,


Scottish oil, that has not been resolved. The question of the pound


and what would be used if we were in out of the European Union. Another


point is the border, this would become the border of the European


Union, a very hard order between become the border of the European


England and Scotland and the whole point about independence in Europe


last time round is that in both countries within the European Union


you do not have to worry about the border. F1 stitching the union seems


complicated during the independence referendum, Grexit has just taken it


complicated during the independence to a whole new level.


Shortly before we came on air, I spoke to the First


If you do not mind, let's cut to the chase on this. People have heard you


say over the last few days and on the Andrew Marr rogue RAM, you do


not want to be in the position you find yourself in. Let's take this


idea that you have been floating that somehow or other Scotland could


stay in the European Union while Britain leaves. I'm interested just


what are you actually thinking about that? Can I just be very clean about


my position? Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and


my job as First Minister is to death a way to effect the way Scotland


voted and avoid the damaging consequences of being taken out


against our will. I can not sit here and tell you definitely what is


possible and what is not, we had an unchartered territory and that has


never happened before in terms of the country trying to extricate


itself in the European Union nations within the member state wanting to


stay in. My job is to exhaust every possibility. At this with the


starting point not being independence but how do we protect


Scotland's position? If it transpires as we go through this


process that being independent as the on the way we can protect our


position, that is a debate, the on the way we can protect our


discussion and decision and the people of Scotland have a right to


have the option of taking. What are you exploring? One can easily


example Scotland being part of the Erasmus student programme with


England not being but Scotland being part of the single market if written


is not? What I will do all along is the open, upfront and honest with


the people of Scotland, with you the media, I am not going to say here


today two days after a situation I did not choose being thrust upon us


and say definitively what all these options are. What are you going to


explore? I want to keep Scotland in the European Union, in the position


we are just now and look at all options to try to achieve that. I am


not pretending that will be easy or straightforward. There are massive


complexity is along the way. It may be the only way we can protect our


position is to become an independent country and if we are at the


position of looking at that to another independence referendum that


is not simply a rerun of the last one. We are in completely different


circumstances. It would be a situation where we were looking at


the possibility of independence not to leave anywhere but to enable us


to stay. If we think back to 2014, I passionately believed independence


what's right for Scotland but many people saw it as a step into the


unknown versus the security and stability of the UK. That is not the


case any more. The UK we voted to stay in 2014 simply does not exist.


What we do now is the consequences of the UK extricating itself from


you will be damaging, socially, culturally, economically. My job is


to try to navigate a path through this for Scotland which protects our


interests as well as we possibly can and to do that by unifying people in


Scotland are as much as possible. We can talk a bit more about the


independence referendum any minute but I want to come back to this


idea. You seem to be saying your ambition and what you are trying to


explore is the possibility of Scotland remaining a member of the


European Union even though Britain has voted to get out? Hordern, if I


was sitting here as First Minister in the face of the vote that was


taken on Thursday in Scotland I should not be First Minister. Do say


it is OK we are dragged about Europe against our will. In fact it is not


usual to see a politician or a leader say. I am not sitting here


with all the answers about what might be possible or don't not be


possible. We had an completely unchartered territory. The two


certainties we have, firstly as First Minister I have an absolute


duty to seek to give effect to what people in Scotland voted for on


Thursday and secondly the UK as was, the UK Scotland voted to stay in in


2014 does not exist any more. I understand that but what you are


arguing for and what your ambitions are, I can understand why you are


say death given the vote here. It is not just that this might be


difficult given the government of the United Kingdom but what you are


suggesting would probably need treaty changes to the European


Union? The European Union is already going into unchartered territory


were found thinkable things ahead of it because of the UK wide vote on


Thursday. What I am trying to do is achieve some stability for Scotland


and give effect to what we voted for. Over the days, weeks and months


to come I am going to discuss these options with the European Union 's,


other member states and seek to find a way forward. It may well be beyond


the baby can protect position in the European Union as if we chose to


become independent. If that is the we are in your will be complexity is


that as a country we have do think our way through and make a decision


on the back of that. I am not prepared as First Minister to simply


sit back and shrug our shoulders and say Scotland has put up with all the


pain that comes the decision the UK took. To be clear, what you are


going to explore and your ambition immediately is to look to see if


going to explore and your ambition there is a way Scotland can stay


part of the UK, stay part of the single market and keep free movement


of Labour? Yes? I am going to explore all options. In these


moments of crisis you have two hold onto some principle. The principle I


hold onto as I try to navigate the country through a very difficult


situation that was not about choosing lawmaking is this one. What


is in our best interests and how do we give effect to what Scotland


voted for? Just a few days after this result I am not going to sit


here and say that is of the table or that is on the table. My ambition is


for Scotland to stay within the European Union. With the single


market and free movement of Labour? Absolutely, Scotland voted to


maintain the situation we have just now. You want to do that without


Scotland leaving the UK? Let's look at all options. I am realistic and


not naive in this. It may well be that the only way of doing that we


be to become independent and if that is the case then, as a country, we


have to decide if that will be the best option. The Olive precedent


people can think of is dreamland. Are you thinking of being a reverse


Greenland? It is uncharted territory and I keep hearing people saying the


rules of what happens now is this and this would not be allowed but


this process has never been done before. They are no rules, no


precedent. What would happen from here on in is they would be a


process of negotiation. My job as First Minister of Scotland, a


country that has voted to stay in is to try and get the outcome for


Scotland that is best. That is what I will try to do. What is happening


at Westminster, the complete vacuum of leadership, it is shameful. I am


determined Scotland will be led with purpose. In your initial reaction on


Friday you use language about what you would do which would to some


extent depend on the messages you were getting back from the European


Union. What was that link to say? Are you looking for a message from


the European Union saying we do not want Scotland to leave? Of course we


have to have that discussion with the European Union. That will take


time to do. The judgments I make and put forward to Scotland which are in


my judgment the best way forward well, to some extent, flow from what


the reaction in Europe is. It comes back to this. I did not choose this


situation. It is an horrendous situation for the UK to be in but


people in the England had the right to vote the way they did. But I have


got to protect this country and I would not be the First Minister of


Scotland if I just shrugged my shoulders and said it does not


matter how we voted, we are going to go through this situation of an


dragged out of Europe against our will.


Rarely are at the moment, this has to be, or this has to be, we are in


uncharted territory and I do think, and I said this on Friday, looking


at this at any angle, they would have to be in a position to have


that referendum within that time still, that is essential. Should


Scotland vote for independence still, that is essential. Should


within the timescale, do you know Verheijen government giving any


legal advice as to what the position of Scotland would be? Would we then


just be part of Brexit and reapply to the European Union? Would we not


bleed? In terms of what applies within Article 50, what you have is


what Article 50 says to you. What happens in terms of how that will be


given effect to as a matter of negotiation. My position in the


circumstances would be that Scotland is not believe the EU, we stay. This


circumstances would be that Scotland is your completely changed set of


circumstances. What we are potentially looking at independence


to do is to stay, not to beef up but to stay. But you have not had any


messages from the European Union itself? Telling you that would be


possible? These are discussions and questions that we have to take


forward. But if we voted in a referendum for independence whether


or not they would stay in the EU have to reapply, you would have to


tell us that you don't know at the moment? Frommy common-sense


perspective, why on earth would it be in the interest of the European


Union to say to part of a member state that democratically had


decided that it wanted to stay and wanted to be independent in order to


stay to say that it had to leave in order to come back in? Because we


are talking about European treaties, not common-sense! Yes, you look at


the world today at Westminster in particular and you do not see a lot


of sense, I would accept that. But one challenge I have is to bring


common-sense to a situation that is otherwise in turmoil. If you are


going to have indyref 2, as it has been called, is it the case that the


polls still were trumping Brexit, will you hold back from having it?


This is what I judged in the best interests to be for Scotland. If I


judge for Scotland it is the best interests to be for Scotland. If I


interests by staying in the European Union and that that can only be


delivered by an independence referendum, I have a job to convince


delivered by an independence people. Would you hold a referendum


even the polls show that you would not win it? If I believed it to be


in the interests of Scotland, I would try and persuade people.


Coming back to the politics of this, you cannot afford to lose another


one. Gordon, I cannot afford... That is looking at it from my now hope


little interest as leader of the SNP. I do not want to sound Syed


Kamall yes or pie is here and I hope that is not do this by what I killed


you, but I will not make judgments over the period ahead as to what is


right for me as leader of the SNP or as a party. I am First Minister of


Scotland and I must make judgments about what is in the best interests


of Scotland. If I reach a point over the next few months that says the


only way I believe we can protect Scotland's economic, social


interests is to become independent, then I have a duty to say that to


the people of Scotland and try and bring Scotland together behind that.


That is perhaps the responsibility of leadership here. Scotland at the


moment needs to have an honest conversation every step of the way.


This is a situation not of our conversation every step of the way.


choosing, every simply stand back and allow that to happen, the


economic consequences, the social, cultural, the one sequences for our


place in the world, they will beget is taking. I have a duty to find a


different path forward, and I will try to do that. There's not another


big constitutional as you do will have to face the fact that... I have


a document your written by the House of Lords and other important legal


people with wigs and of Lords and other important legal


they are saying that Scotland would have to agree, the Scottish


Parliament must agree, to carpets of European legislation. There is an


issue here. People won't understand that you say you want to have


another independence referendum but the Scottish Parliament was to try


to legally block Britain leaving the European Union, there is a


democratic issue there, we are part of the UK, there has been a


democratic vote. But this is not about the Scottish Parliament trying


to put England, it is about taking a decision as to the best interests of


Scotland. I recognise absolutely love the complexities that have been


thrown up by thirsty's vote, but I did not create these and I have to


deal with the reality that we are in. They issued you speak of is


whether they would have to be a legislative motion for the


legislation that extricate the UK from the European Union. From a


logical perspective I find it hard to believe that would not be that


requirement, I suspect UK Government would take a very different view on


that and they will have to see where that discussion up. We have had


nowhere near as as big and controversial issues as this one but


we have had discussions in recent pass over the trade union poll and


legislation over weeping the Human Rights Act and similar things. Would


you consider asking the Scottish Parliament not to back such emotion?


Of course. Did you say, of course? Yes, the Scottish Parliament was to


judge this on the basis of what is right for Scotland, the option of


saying we will not vote for something that is against Scotland's


interest, of course that must be on the table. Even regarding that block


of Britain leaving Europe? Do not get me wrong, I care about the rest


of the duty, eye care about England, that is why I am upset with this


decision that has been taken. But my job as First Minister and the job of


the Scottish Parliament is to judge these things in the interests of the


people of Scotland. But can you imagine the fury of people in


Britain if you stop them leaving Europe? I can, but I have to match


that with the people of Scotland was Matt anger at being taken out of


Europe against their will. I have to navigate the best way forward. I am


not pretending any of these options are easy. I will try to do it to the


best of my ability to the interests of the people that I am elected to


serve uppermost in my mind. Thank you very much indeed, First


Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. That was Nicola Sturgeon speaking to


me earlier. Listening to that and with me now


is the Scottish Secretary, Let us begin with this idea of a


second independence referendum, as I understand it, it would be within


the gift of the British government to see whether that referendum could


happen. Do you think your government would or should block it?


There are two issues around a future would or should block it?


independence referendum, one is whether it could happen. Really it


could, but there are process issues. The Big Issue is whether it should


happen. I do not believe it should, the people of Scotland, the 2


million who voted to remain in the UK in September 2014 are very clear


and want to remain part of the UK. Just to clarify, Gordon,


independence was not on the referendum ballot paper Barstow


Stech, that was not part of the issue. The issue was whether the UK


should remain in the EU. Very regrettably from my perspective, the


majority of people across the UK voted that the UK should leave the


EU, parts of the UK, Scotland, London, Northern Ireland voted that


the UK should remain part of the EU and I acknowledge that, but what I


do not accept was that that was in anyway a vote for independence, and


I think it is very, very unhelpful in this very difficult situation,


unchartered waters, I would agree with the First Minister on that,


that virtually the first thing that is spoken about, we have hardly got


the ink on the decoration of the new referendum dry, before we were


having a debate about Scottish independence. What the priority must


be, my priority, the same as that of Nicola Sturgeon, is to get the best


deal for Scotland from the EU. But if she organises this, is that OK


for you as a member of the British government, she -- if she wants to


hold another independence referendum?


The SNP are trying to exploit this difficult situation to further the


cause of independence, entirely predictable. But would you try to


stop them? Many people who try to campaign for Remain were clear that


this was what would happen. It is campaign for Remain were clear that


exactly what has happened. Would you try and stop them? I want to make


the argument that we should not have another referendum, I do not want to


get into these process arguments. If the people of Scotland are


ultimately determined that they want to have another referendum, there


will be one, but we in the Conservatives... So you will allow


one? There will be one? I am not telling you that. Your government


would not try to stop such a referendum? I do not believe that it


is any interests in any way... But you have also just said... I do not


think the outcome of that would be Scotland leading the UK because I


believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK are as


compelling up as they were in 2014. But you just said that it should be


allowed to happen if people want another referendum? I have said


there are two issues, could there be another referendum, yes. Should


there be another one, I believe the answer to that is no. You heard what


Nicola Sturgeon said at the end of that interview about legislative


consent and harder would be the that interview about legislative


possibility that the Scottish Parliament could not pass a motion


of legislative consent, which could potentially stop Britain leaving the


EU, what did you make of that? These are all very speckled death legal


and constitutional questions. This is not how we want to take their


situation forward. We want to work together, the Scottish Government,


the UK Government working together to get the best deal for Scotland


with the EU. Now, even before he resigned on Friday morning, David


Cameron had spoken to Nicola Sturgeon, undertaking that the


Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament be at the heart of the


process of re-negotiation. I, myself, met with Fiona Hyslop on


Friday afternoon to discuss how we would ensure close working


relationships with Scotland at the heart of this discussion. But there


is a democratic issue here. You could argue that the people of


Scotland want another independence referendum, then that is fine. But


of the Scottish Parliament was to try to use legislation to stop


Britain exiting the European Union, the argument would be presumably


that that is not democratic because we are part of the UK and it was a


referendum and a democratic decision of the British people has been made.


We must respect for the's result even if we do not like it. It was a


UK-wide vote. It was a board by people across the UK as to whether


the UK remained in the EU. Unfortunately for my perspective,


they voted to be. -- Thursday's result. We are in unchartered water


and we must work together. The Scottish Government and the UK


Government, it must work together to get the best deal for Scotland from


the EU. It should not be about moving the discussion on to another


independence referendum. SNP's position is another independence


referendum regardless of the outcome for that vote.


We must look at the legal mechanism that we go through to get to a


situation of the UK. While the Scottish Parliament blocking an exit


of Britain be accepted? I do not think that the Scottish


Parliament is any position to do that but I have not seen the legal


documentation that you have been referring to.


What about your personal position? You are a member of the Cabinet. Are


you happy to be a member of the Boris Johnson, Michael Gove von


Conservative administration? We are about to have a leadership contest


in the Conservative Party, we have not heard hoodie runners and riders


are. I look forward to hearing who they are and what they have to say.


But it think it is a pretty fair assumption that I will not be


backing Mr Johnson in that election as he becomes a candidate. Really?


Why not? I do not think he is a candidate that can unify the


country, I do not mean just got in, candidate that can unify the


I mean the whole of the UK. I think that we need someone who at this


difficult time can bring the whole of the United Kingdom together and


who can work to get Britain, Scotland, the rest of the UK the


best deal in the EU and I am not convinced that Boris Johnson is that


person. And that person would be who? I am waiting to see who emerges


in the leadership election. Are you really? If you are part of


the government that presides over the break-up of Europe and possibly


the break-up of the UK, that is the break-up of Europe and possibly


hardly what you came into politics for, is it? It is not. That is why I


hardly what you came into politics want to make sure that is not the


case. I do not want to see the UK breaking up. I do not think it is


inevitable that it should break up because I beat -- believe the reason


is that for having Scotland as part of the UK, Scotland being in the UK,


our strong though as they were 18 months ago and I will continue to


make the case for that. And like the First Minister, I want to get the


best possible deal for Scotland and the rest of the duty as they


negotiate the circumstances of our the rest of the duty as they


departure from the EU. David Mundell, thank you very much indeed


for coming in this morning. Joining me now from London


is Shadow Scottish Secretary and Labour's only MP north


of the border, Ian Murray. Good afternoon.


Argue still a member of the Shadow Cabinet?


Just in the last few minutes I have written to Jeremy Corbyn, the leader


of the Labour Party, with my resignation from the Shadow Cabinet.


That letter has just gone off and will be made public very shortly.


Please give us your reasons. We have gone through an incredibly


difficult time, not just any party but since the EU referendum result


and in the early hours of Friday morning. The Labour Party must be a


strong opposition, it has to build a broad coalition to get back into


government. We are in this position because the Conservative Party have


brought us an EU referendum that nobody really wanted but indeed what


they have done this fix their own party and taking a gamble but the


country. That has been the wrong thing to do and I think that the


Labour Party more than ever needs to be in government, I am just not sure


that the country, what people have been telling me in the country, that


that can be delivered with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the Labour


Party. Hilary Benn said earlier he did not see himself standing will


stop do you know who you would like to replace Jeremy Corbyn should he


leave? That is a question for another day, it is the hardest


political decision I have ever made. But I have done it because I care


about my party but more than that, I care about the country. We need a


strong Labour Party and opposition ready for government and in


government. Especially to stop these mad decisions from the right-wing of


the Conservative Party that sent the country both from a UK level and


from a Scottish perspective into political turmoil. That is not why


people go to the ballot box to vote for politicians and we must resolve


that issue. There is a basic problem Ian Murray


that there was this massive surge of support for Jeremy Corbyn, something


like 2000 members of the Labour Party, most of which probably still


supports Jeremy Corbyn. -- 200,000. If Jeremy Corbyn resigned and you


have another election, the Labour Party will vote resoundingly to put


him back exactly where he is now. It is quite clear, the Labour Party


needs to stop speaking to itself. This is why we got into this


position both at a UK level and to greater or lesser extent in the


Scottish Labour Party in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale is trying to resolve


that and is doing a good job of doing that but we have to stop


talking to ourselves, it is much bigger than that. Drawn on my own


experiences in Edinburgh South and Edinburgh South on that we went back


in month of May with Daniel Johnson, we were able to do that because they


speak to the entire electorate, not just people that agreed with us, we


have that debate and that discussion, we have that argument


and develop our own policies and the local manifesto is based on what


people tell us. That is important for the Labour Party at the national


level to do that and I just do not think that Jeremy Corbyn is able to


beat us and be Prime Minister. I am not doing this just in public, I


read that on Friday at our emergency Shadow Cabinet meeting. I said to


the Shadow Cabinet and Jeremy directly that I did not think at


this moment in time he could be by Minister and if he thought he could


be Prime Minister, he is speaking to the wrong people and the need to


change. His change things that's been Tussac Hilary Benn, I think


this is the wrong way to go and it is the final straw for many any


Shadow Cabinet to have served for is the final straw for many any


Genette Tate for this country but we need change because the Labour Party


cannot win a general election in its current state.


Can I just quote you something? mentioned Kezia Dugdale, she said


yesterday, " I fully support Jeremy Corbyn." I think your interview with


the Secretary of State for Scotland has just opened that we are going to


end more constitutional turmoil in Scotland. This is not the way the


constitution works referendum works. This is about people's livelihoods


which is what it has always been about for me. It is about reducing


inequality, creating jobs of the future, making sure young people


have opportunities and old people have dignity in retirement. You


cannot do that by constantly talking about the constitution, constantly


throwing the constitution up into the air and hoping the aces last


line correctly. The messages coming out, we are not entirely clear,


perhaps you can clarify for us. Labour in Scotland now appears to be


saying what, it might back independence? Labour in Scotland


have been clear. We fully back Nicola Sturgeon in the way she is


looking to the negotiate with the European Union. Negotiating to keep


Scotland in the European Union. We will keep those stone unturned to


see what that will look like. And manifesto is clear we will not


support a second referendum but we are leaving all options open at this


stage. I do not think it is in anybody was my power at this stage


to come to a determination about what is right and what is wrong.


We're going to into and constitutional are people. We need


to reflect. I am slightly disappointed the debate seems to be


dominated by a second independence referendum rather than taking


discussions about how we are protected. We want to be in the UK


and be in the EU. It is up to us all like to work very strongly to make


sure Scotland's position is protected. Can you conceive of a


situation where you say you want press for another Scottish


referendum but if the government does hold one, with Labour say in


the circumstances we think it is in the interests of the people of


Scotland to vote for independence, can you conceive of a situation like


that? The situation around a second referendum even more difficult today


than when polls closed on Thursday. All of the big issues we discussed


as an Aussie in 2014 have not got easier, they have got much more


difficult. It is incumbent on all politicians to come together and


support the First Minister in what she is trying to achieve at EU level


and make sure we had the best possible deal for Scotland in what


has been a Conservative Party shambles that has been this country


into complete and utter disrepute. Do you think there should be a


general election? Even the Prime Minister has resigned, given the


Conservatives will go through an election to get a new leader I think


that may need to go for a mandate but I think the public are


incredibly angry and we have to address the issue why so many


people, including 40% of Scots, voted to leave the European Union.


Do you think Grexit is now set in stone? Do you see any possibility


that perhaps after the general election we could negotiate with the


European Union. -- Grexit. Do say you can stay in the European Union


and not leave? At this particular state politics in the United Kingdom


could not rule out anything happening in what has happened over


the last few years and few days. The second thing is we have just had a


democratic referendum. I am a Democrat and respect the result of


that referendum. The majority of people voted to leave and those


where the rule set out, a simple majority. We have to make sure the


will of the people is carried forward and if anything happens


beyond that we will have to take it when it arises. One last point you


have written note to Jeremy Corbyn, resigning from his Shadow Cabinet


but do you think Jeremy Corbyn himself will resign over the next


few days? I think Jeremy Hunt is to reflect himself on with the Labour


Party is going. -- Jeremy Corbyn. He has to look at himself and see


whether he could be Prime Minister. I think he will find it difficult to


answer yes to that question. Here's a decent human being, a lovely man


who I get on well with but I do not think he can read the Labour Party


and the Prime Minister. Thank you for joining us this morning.


Brian Taylor, our political editor, is with me now.


You are the master of Scottish exams. Help Marveaux we can see.


Help ma boab. -- I think Labour ran a timid campaign which did not


energise the support. There were a range of people voting against the


European Union. There was anger in some communities in England and in


Scotland as well. They saw a dreadful economic situation with the


EU not ameliorating it and perhaps making it worse. There were perhaps


middle-class and lower middle-class England, a kind of movement of


concern towards English identity which had three factors. One, what


on earth are the Scots up to. What is happening with the European Union


and those came together in a concatenation of a revived English


identity that these sort Europe standing against. That is Labour.


What did you think about what Nicola Sturgeon said about Holyrood


possibly blocking the exit? The Scottish Parliament as to implement


European implementation. The things that matter, the single market and


the treaties. I think politically there would be a huge resentment


from Westminster and England where it to be the case... You heard what


she said. These things are tough and rough. If, for example, Scotland had


voted yes to independence in 2014 and the Westminster Parliament had


used a mechanism to stop that you could see the anger in that. It is


likely and deep possible scenario but likely I think not. I was


reading a piece you had written on this on Friday, you think Nicola


Sturgeon would be reluctant to go for an independence referendum


again. She want to hold an independence referendum again? The


answer is no. She said if she doesn't she would have to do within


two years. The oil price is down from 2014, the currency crisis is


still there. The EU exit could empower Scots to feel that or want


instability. It is not one of flight, of reaching away from


despotism. It is a stone confidence and nations self-determination to


want independence. Haps the instability created by Brexit is


causing that. She is genuinely seeking alternatives to maintaining


Scotland's status in the EU. She is going to seek each of those in turn


and I think you will find each of those as frustrated I Deeney to


build a relationship with the European Union that is a step on


treaty and status. I think she will then come to the conclusion that the


only one that is left is something independence. We will have to leave


it there. Thank you very much indeed.


I'll be back at the same time next week.


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