03/07/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


03/07/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Lord Prescott, Dr Liam Fox, Chris Bryant and Barry Gardiner.


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Transcript


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Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

:00:35.:00:41.

after a Leave vote in the referendum.

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Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

:00:44.:00:51.

to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

:00:52.:00:54.

He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

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When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

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Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland.

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After a week when the Conservatives drew the long knives on each other

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and all the parties here launched volleys at them, we'll ask Ruth

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And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

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who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

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them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

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Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

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So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

:01:40.:01:42.

candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

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Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

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who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

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This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

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We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

:02:02.:02:07.

but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

:02:08.:02:11.

business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

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It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

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competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

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upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

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establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

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once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

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two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

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is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

:02:45.:02:49.

the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

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this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

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place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

:02:57.:03:00.

candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

:03:01.:03:05.

ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

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Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

:03:10.:03:12.

country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

:03:13.:03:16.

should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

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taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

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to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

:03:27.:03:30.

commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

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is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

:03:36.:03:40.

and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

:03:41.:03:42.

Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

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to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

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Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

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consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

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that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

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Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

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think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

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have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

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he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

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ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

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with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

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most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

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honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

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from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

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moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

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Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

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about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

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Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

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last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

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not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

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narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

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in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

:05:14.:05:21.

different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

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bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

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Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

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schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

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out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

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from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

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She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

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that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

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competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

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That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

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trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

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with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

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question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

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ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

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with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

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impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

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herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

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events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

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Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

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into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

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the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

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That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

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Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

:07:18.:07:24.

country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

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or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

:07:28.:07:33.

dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

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Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

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that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

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on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

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serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

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two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

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could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

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can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

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anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

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ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

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others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

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presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

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you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

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particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

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movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

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will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

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side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

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Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

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contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

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Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

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Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

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If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

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we must fully implement the instruction given to us

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for membership of the single market

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if it entails the movement of people.

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Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

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Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

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to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

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result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

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I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

:09:58.:10:02.

referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

:10:03.:10:06.

have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

:10:07.:10:10.

netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

:10:11.:10:13.

Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

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this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

:10:18.:10:22.

have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

:10:23.:10:26.

than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

:10:27.:10:31.

perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

:10:32.:10:35.

extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

:10:36.:10:39.

serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

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you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

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Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

:10:50.:10:57.

oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

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will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

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because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

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a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

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important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

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three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

:11:23.:11:26.

Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

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operates. We are now seeing the road operates. We are now seeing the road

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ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

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you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

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between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

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a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

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Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

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Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

:12:00.:12:02.

Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

:12:03.:12:05.

detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

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crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

:12:11.:12:14.

commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

:12:15.:12:18.

have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

:12:19.:12:23.

about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

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50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

:12:30.:12:35.

we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

:12:36.:12:39.

want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

:12:40.:12:45.

prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

:12:46.:12:48.

that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

:12:49.:12:51.

President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

:12:52.:12:58.

expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

:12:59.:13:02.

Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

:13:03.:13:07.

don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

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That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

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Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

:13:16.:13:21.

way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

:13:22.:13:24.

there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

:13:25.:13:29.

than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

:13:30.:13:35.

but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

:13:36.:13:39.

in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

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had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

:13:46.:13:49.

quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

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the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

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restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

:14:01.:14:03.

restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

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direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

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her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

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accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

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this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

:14:21.:14:27.

between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

:14:28.:14:32.

Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

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Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

:14:36.:14:40.

Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

:14:41.:14:47.

Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

:14:48.:14:50.

very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

:14:51.:14:53.

the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

:14:54.:14:56.

compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

:14:57.:14:58.

government. What's most important quality for

:14:59.:15:10.

the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

:15:11.:15:15.

They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

:15:16.:15:23.

the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

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is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

:15:33.:15:39.

the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

:15:40.:15:43.

If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

:15:44.:15:47.

take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

:15:48.:15:50.

Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

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Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

:15:58.:16:02.

to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

:16:03.:16:13.

but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

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one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

:16:19.:16:22.

Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

:16:23.:16:26.

known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

:16:27.:16:35.

tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

:16:36.:16:38.

emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

:16:39.:16:44.

overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

:16:45.:16:47.

among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

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country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

:16:54.:16:58.

the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

:16:59.:17:03.

would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

:17:04.:17:07.

be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

:17:08.:17:11.

think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

:17:12.:17:14.

party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

:17:15.:17:19.

mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

:17:20.:17:23.

it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

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days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

:17:30.:17:33.

has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

:17:34.:17:36.

Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

:17:37.:17:38.

the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

:17:39.:17:39.

with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

:17:40.:17:42.

expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

:17:43.:17:45.

Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

:17:46.:17:48.

I think people may look back on this week as the week

:17:49.:18:02.

when the Labour Party committed suicide.

:18:03.:18:05.

He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

:18:06.:18:08.

The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

:18:09.:18:12.

sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:18:13.:18:30.

he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

:18:31.:18:32.

ahead of this EU referendum debate.

:18:33.:18:34.

and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

:18:35.:18:39.

in internal manoeuvring at this time.

:18:40.:18:44.

In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

:18:45.:18:51.

Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

:18:52.:18:55.

at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

:18:56.:18:59.

on the eve of a no-confidence vote

:19:00.:19:01.

his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

:19:02.:19:07.

It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

:19:08.:19:10.

where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

:19:11.:19:13.

"I like you, you've always been my friend.

:19:14.:19:16.

I appreciate what you've tried to do,

:19:17.:19:19.

but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

:19:20.:19:27.

With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

:19:28.:19:29.

He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

:19:30.:19:39.

And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

:19:40.:19:41.

his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

:19:42.:19:46.

I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:19:47.:19:51.

and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

:19:52.:19:58.

The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:19:59.:20:01.

They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:02.:20:05.

They are interested in the Falklands.

:20:06.:20:08.

They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

:20:09.:20:12.

But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:13.:20:14.

of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:15.:20:21.

On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

:20:22.:20:24.

the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

:20:25.:20:28.

Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

:20:29.:20:37.

Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

:20:38.:20:41.

I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

:20:42.:20:47.

It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

:20:48.:20:56.

On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:20:57.:21:00.

Are you going to stand for the leadership?

:21:01.:21:04.

I'll be saying something later today.

:21:05.:21:09.

It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

:21:10.:21:11.

We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

:21:12.:21:15.

four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

:21:16.:21:19.

have gone into his office and are trying

:21:20.:21:20.

As it happened, they weren't invited in.

:21:21.:21:29.

Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

:21:30.:21:31.

and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:32.:21:33.

retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:34.:21:40.

no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:41.:21:49.

We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:50.:21:53.

a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

:21:54.:21:55.

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:21:56.:21:58.

He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:21:59.:22:00.

a new generation of politicians to come forward.

:22:01.:22:05.

This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

:22:06.:22:10.

who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

:22:11.:22:12.

And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

:22:13.:22:16.

These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:17.:22:21.

You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:22.:22:24.

Is that usurping traditional party structures?

:22:25.:22:27.

The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

:22:28.:22:32.

basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

:22:33.:22:35.

it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:36.:22:38.

If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

:22:39.:22:42.

than have soundbites and a polished media performance

:22:43.:22:44.

It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

:22:45.:22:50.

They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

:22:51.:22:55.

With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

:22:56.:23:01.

over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:02.:23:06.

But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

:23:07.:23:08.

Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:09.:23:11.

Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:12.:23:19.

still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:20.:23:25.

Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:26.:23:34.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:35.:23:37.

to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

:23:38.:23:40.

How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:41.:23:49.

He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:50.:23:55.

MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:23:56.:23:58.

the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:23:59.:24:02.

Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:03.:24:06.

actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:07.:24:11.

that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:12.:24:15.

but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

:24:16.:24:19.

just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:20.:24:25.

well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

:24:26.:24:31.

we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:32.:24:36.

seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:37.:24:40.

saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:41.:24:46.

well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:47.:24:50.

who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:51.:24:56.

interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:24:57.:25:01.

needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:02.:25:07.

seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:08.:25:11.

problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:12.:25:18.

stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:19.:25:23.

issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:24.:25:29.

country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:30.:25:33.

you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:34.:25:37.

Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:38.:25:41.

the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:42.:25:45.

principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:46.:25:53.

Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:54.:25:56.

I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:25:57.:26:01.

The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:02.:26:07.

against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

:26:08.:26:15.

To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:16.:26:18.

members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:19.:26:24.

with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:25.:26:28.

membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:29.:26:38.

responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:39.:26:43.

mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:44.:26:49.

suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:50.:26:55.

we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:26:56.:27:00.

both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

:27:01.:27:05.

legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:06.:27:08.

continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:09.:27:17.

about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:18.:27:24.

is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:25.:27:28.

negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:29.:27:33.

Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:34.:27:37.

has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:38.:27:43.

do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:44.:27:51.

in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:52.:27:55.

Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:27:56.:28:02.

happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:03.:28:08.

credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:09.:28:14.

country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:15.:28:20.

falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:21.:28:24.

negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:25.:28:28.

to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:29.:28:32.

at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:33.:28:37.

credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

:28:38.:28:41.

squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:42.:28:47.

politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:48.:28:51.

contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:52.:28:56.

cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:28:57.:29:01.

a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:02.:29:06.

either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:07.:29:14.

That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:15.:29:20.

agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:21.:29:27.

don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:28.:29:33.

on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:34.:29:37.

led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:38.:29:41.

collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:42.:29:46.

where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:47.:29:51.

there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:52.:29:54.

a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:29:55.:30:01.

I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:02.:30:11.

of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:12.:30:15.

Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:16.:30:18.

candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:19.:30:23.

only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:24.:30:28.

interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:29.:30:32.

motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:33.:30:36.

didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:37.:30:40.

keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:41.:30:44.

problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:45.:30:48.

that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:49.:30:53.

your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:54.:30:57.

certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:30:58.:31:02.

not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:03.:31:09.

electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:10.:31:12.

look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:13.:31:20.

like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:21.:31:24.

both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:25.:31:36.

seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

:31:37.:31:41.

those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:42.:31:44.

want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:45.:31:48.

destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:49.:31:53.

rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:54.:31:58.

in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:31:59.:32:00.

with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:01.:32:04.

talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:05.:32:10.

while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:11.:32:15.

When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:16.:32:18.

end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:19.:32:24.

I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:25.:32:28.

Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:29.:32:29.

times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:30.:32:33.

the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:34.:32:35.

Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:36.:32:36.

was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:37.:32:39.

to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:40.:32:41.

part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:42.:32:45.

has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:46.:32:49.

attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:50.:32:57.

of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:32:58.:33:03.

he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:04.:33:08.

from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:09.:33:24.

Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:25.:33:29.

seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:30.:33:34.

to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:35.:33:37.

position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:38.:33:41.

of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:42.:33:46.

leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:47.:33:51.

opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:52.:33:57.

more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:33:58.:33:59.

The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:00.:34:07.

would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:08.:34:14.

the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

:34:15.:34:18.

want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:19.:34:22.

the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:23.:34:26.

shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:27.:34:30.

go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:31.:34:33.

only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:34.:34:39.

happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:40.:34:43.

means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:44.:34:48.

why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:49.:34:51.

from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:52.:34:55.

much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:34:56.:35:04.

incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:05.:35:07.

will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:08.:35:10.

for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:11.:35:15.

your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:16.:35:18.

same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:19.:35:25.

be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:26.:35:29.

democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:30.:35:36.

Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:37.:35:40.

membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:41.:35:48.

to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:49.:35:53.

Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:54.:35:56.

cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:35:57.:36:01.

but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:02.:36:06.

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:07.:36:10.

put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:11.:36:15.

Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

:36:16.:36:21.

position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:22.:36:26.

have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:27.:36:30.

writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:31.:36:35.

go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:36.:36:38.

seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:39.:36:41.

appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:42.:36:44.

and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:45.:36:51.

logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:36:52.:36:59.

wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:00.:37:05.

other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:06.:37:08.

Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:09.:37:13.

motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:14.:37:17.

are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:18.:37:21.

standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:22.:37:25.

that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:26.:37:31.

are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:32.:37:38.

am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:39.:37:42.

broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:43.:37:48.

recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:49.:37:52.

further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:53.:37:55.

on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:37:56.:38:00.

conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:01.:38:05.

is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:06.:38:12.

can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:13.:38:15.

the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:16.:38:18.

the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:19.:38:22.

might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:23.:38:25.

which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:26.:38:29.

were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:30.:38:33.

thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:34.:38:38.

ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:39.:38:40.

way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:41.:38:47.

need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:48.:38:51.

if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:38:52.:38:58.

happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:38:59.:39:03.

will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:04.:39:06.

appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:07.:39:09.

honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:10.:39:14.

the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:15.:39:17.

other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:18.:39:24.

is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:25.:39:29.

decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:30.:39:35.

he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:36.:39:42.

happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:43.:39:46.

Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:47.:39:51.

think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:52.:39:55.

my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:39:56.:39:58.

matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:39:59.:40:02.

week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:03.:40:06.

how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:07.:40:11.

nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:12.:40:15.

possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:16.:40:21.

democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:22.:40:24.

unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:25.:40:29.

change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:30.:40:31.

is what I still believe in. But the had to change the government. That

:40:32.:40:35.

leader of the Labour Party has to convince voters that we have a

:40:36.:40:38.

compelling vision for the future of this country. And Jeremy is unable

:40:39.:40:44.

to do that. Many of his policies, I would support. I want us to change

:40:45.:40:48.

the language around public expenditure and the public sector.

:40:49.:40:56.

Many parts of the country feel no elected and there are angry people

:40:57.:41:01.

who want to vote Labour, but are not convinced -- they feel neglected. As

:41:02.:41:05.

things stand, even with chaos in the governing party, you would need a

:41:06.:41:12.

miracle to win in 2020. I believe in miracles. And the most important

:41:13.:41:19.

miracle is that Jeremy can break the logjam. You still don't want to hit

:41:20.:41:27.

Ed Miliband smack you have changed your mind on that. I don't. I wish

:41:28.:41:34.

the Labour Party were not where they are, because I can do nothing for

:41:35.:41:39.

the Rhondda. May your God go with you.

:41:40.:41:49.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:41:50.:41:50.

Ruth Davidson supported Remain and David Cameron.

:41:51.:41:56.

After the vote in favour of Brexit and the PM's resignation,

:41:57.:41:58.

we'll be asking if she has any influence left,

:41:59.:42:01.

Labour MPs stage a coup against Jeremy Corbyn.

:42:02.:42:05.

We'll ask former First Minister Henry McLeish about the party's

:42:06.:42:07.

future and about the prospect of a second independence referendum

:42:08.:42:10.

The EU has extended sanctions on Russia.

:42:11.:42:16.

We'll be speaking to the Ukrainian ambassador paying her first

:42:17.:42:20.

You could see the travails of the Conservative government

:42:21.:42:27.

at Westminster as entirely self-inflicted, after

:42:28.:42:30.

David Cameron's attempt to buy off Eurosceptics in his party

:42:31.:42:34.

by offering them a referendum he expected to win.

:42:35.:42:37.

Or you could see it as an honourable man keeping the pledge he made

:42:38.:42:40.

and made for almost unbelievably compelling politics.

:42:41.:42:48.

We'll ask the Tory leader in Scotland what's going on,

:42:49.:42:50.

and what it all means north of the border, in a moment.

:42:51.:42:53.

No stereotypes, obviously, but perhaps it is true that if you want

:42:54.:43:05.

to hear the voice of one important section of Conservative bursting in

:43:06.:43:09.

Scotland, the Scottish game pair is as good a place to go as any. So

:43:10.:43:18.

what are people here think of the state of the Tory party? I think Mr

:43:19.:43:23.

Cameron made a mistake in having the referendum. And I am sorry to see

:43:24.:43:31.

him go. I think he's stepped down a little bit too quickly. He said he

:43:32.:43:37.

was going to do it, he did it. It was unfortunate that there was a

:43:38.:43:42.

break-up in the party. I think the result has been unfortunate, it has

:43:43.:43:46.

backfired on him. I just think it is awful, a complete mess. What is the

:43:47.:43:51.

answer to the mess? I don't know what the answer is. I suspect we

:43:52.:43:57.

will see the Conservative Party in Scotland disowning this Conservative

:43:58.:44:00.

Party in England and trying to plough its own furrow. No surprise

:44:01.:44:07.

perhaps that that is a step too far for the Scottish Secretary. The

:44:08.:44:09.

Conservatives in Scotland have acknowledged that Scotland voted for

:44:10.:44:16.

the UK to remain in the EU. We want to work with the Scottish Government

:44:17.:44:19.

and with others to get the best possible deal for Scotland from the

:44:20.:44:26.

EU negotiations. What we do not accept, and what we do not agree, is

:44:27.:44:30.

that independence is back on the table as part of these discussions.

:44:31.:44:35.

But Scotland voted very differently from the rest of the UK. Does the

:44:36.:44:40.

Conservative Party in Scotland need to acknowledge that, or does the

:44:41.:44:43.

fact that it was a UK wide referendum mean they can ignore that

:44:44.:44:49.

nuance? We have to do both. It was a UK wide election, the sovereign

:44:50.:44:54.

parliament is Westminster in this instance. Ruth Davidson has been

:44:55.:44:57.

exceptionally clear on what she said about the Scottish angle on that.

:44:58.:45:01.

The vast majority of people in Scotland want to seek stability and

:45:02.:45:04.

we know from 2014 that they voted to stay in the United kingdom. That is

:45:05.:45:11.

very important. There is no escaping the challenge in all of this. The

:45:12.:45:16.

challenge for the Conservative Party for defining its identity. If you

:45:17.:45:19.

were to cut me or cut any conservative in Scotland, we would

:45:20.:45:24.

lead red, white and blue. We want to see Scotland remain a strong part of

:45:25.:45:30.

the UK, we believe that overwhelmingly is in Scotland's

:45:31.:45:34.

interests. So we reject any talk of a second independence referendum at

:45:35.:45:38.

this stage. We have been through two bitter and divisive referendum

:45:39.:45:42.

campaigns in the last two years, the last thing we need is yet another

:45:43.:45:45.

referendum campaign adding to that uncertainty. When he launched his

:45:46.:45:50.

unsuccessful bid to lead the Scottish Conservatives five years

:45:51.:45:54.

ago, he did so arguing they needed to set up a new party with a

:45:55.:45:58.

distinct Scottish identity to get rid of the toxic baggage of the

:45:59.:46:02.

past. Is it time to revisit that debate? I think we are already going

:46:03.:46:12.

down that road, and a Ruth Davidson's leadership will stop --

:46:13.:46:18.

under her leadership. She has been championing the devolution of tax

:46:19.:46:21.

power to Scotland, which has been delivered, she has not been afraid

:46:22.:46:24.

to have the Scottish Conservative Party taking a different view on

:46:25.:46:29.

reserved matters than the UK Conservative Party, for example on

:46:30.:46:32.

issues such as tax credits. Already we are developing a more distinct

:46:33.:46:40.

Scottish Conservative voice. If the Scottish Conservative Party really

:46:41.:46:42.

saying growing apart from the union is the way to defend the union?

:46:43.:46:46.

Perhaps that does not matter if they are pursuing the same objective.

:46:47.:46:48.

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth

:46:49.:46:49.

Who do you fancy for leader of your party? I am in are unique leadership

:46:50.:47:11.

position, so while the process goes through, I will hold my hand until

:47:12.:47:15.

we get to this final two, that is how it works in terms of the

:47:16.:47:19.

processes of the party. Everyone says you like Stephen Crabb. I like

:47:20.:47:22.

a lot of people within the Conservative Party, I am a

:47:23.:47:29.

a lot of people within the Conservative. Andrea Leadsom has

:47:30.:47:35.

targeted -- argued that the next Prime Minister has to be a Brexit

:47:36.:47:41.

supporter, she has a point, doesn't she? When you are talking

:47:42.:47:46.

supporter, she has a point, doesn't these decisions, you need the best

:47:47.:47:50.

person for the job. That is not decided on one policy position, that

:47:51.:47:53.

is sided on several character qualities, moral courage, clear

:47:54.:47:58.

thinking, decision-making, that is what leadership is all about. That

:47:59.:48:02.

has got not anything to do with how you stand on one policy. It is about

:48:03.:48:06.

basic credibility. How could you have someone who has advocated

:48:07.:48:10.

remaining in the EU leading Britain into the next phase which is getting

:48:11.:48:14.

out of the European Union? Because no matter who you are in politics,

:48:15.:48:18.

or who you represent, you are always a Democrat and you believe in

:48:19.:48:22.

incrementing the will of the people. If it is a direct the boxy look

:48:23.:48:32.

referendum, that is clear, 17 million people voted to come out of

:48:33.:48:37.

the EU. The future planning this has to implement that. What you have to

:48:38.:48:41.

do is have the person who is best equipped to make the best deal to

:48:42.:48:45.

come out of the end of that, someone who can go toe to toe with Angela

:48:46.:48:48.

Merkel and not blink. Apart from the result, everyone thought you were

:48:49.:48:53.

rather good in the referendum. He was seen as a bit of a darling of

:48:54.:48:58.

the Conservative Party. -- you were seen as a bit of a darling. I worked

:48:59.:49:03.

hard for what I believed in. You could have an important influence in

:49:04.:49:06.

Scotland in coming up with something that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:07.:49:08.

given all this talk about second that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:09.:49:12.

referendums for independence. What will you be saying to your

:49:13.:49:15.

colleagues in London? I have already had conversations with a number of

:49:16.:49:19.

runners and riders that have put their hat into the ring for Prime

:49:20.:49:21.

Minister. I will be working very closely with the next Prime Minister

:49:22.:49:29.

in the way that I have always had professional relationships with

:49:30.:49:31.

David Cameron's Prime Minister. There is a big question now over

:49:32.:49:35.

what is right for the UK and Scotland. I was devastated on Friday

:49:36.:49:40.

morning. I campaigned hard in this referendum, campaigning to remain. I

:49:41.:49:43.

could not persuade 17 million people, they disagreed with me. What

:49:44.:49:47.

I need to do is make sure that Scotland has, one of the reason I

:49:48.:49:53.

campaigned for Remain is I wanted Scotland's witnesses and companies

:49:54.:50:00.

to be part of a wider free trade area in the UK and the EU. I need to

:50:01.:50:04.

chart a course going forward to stay in both of these so we have the best

:50:05.:50:08.

opportunities for our people. So you would like to stay in the single

:50:09.:50:13.

market? I would, yes. Even if the consequence is maintaining free

:50:14.:50:18.

movement of Labour? Yes. Do you think whoever becomes a leader, you

:50:19.:50:23.

do not want to say who you favour, could possibly sell that to people

:50:24.:50:28.

who have voted Leave? The people who have voted Leave will feel utterly

:50:29.:50:32.

betrayed by that and they would have a point. The problem that we have

:50:33.:50:35.

with the league campaign, this is one of the points I made repeatedly

:50:36.:50:40.

in the -- in the Leave campaign, this is one of the points I made

:50:41.:50:43.

repeatedly, there was no cohesive plan being made by them. They did

:50:44.:50:48.

not tell us what Leave meant. I understand that but the fact remains

:50:49.:50:53.

that immigration is a huge issue. If nothing is done about that, there

:50:54.:50:56.

will be wholesale defections from your party kit Ukip. First of all, I

:50:57.:51:05.

will agree that the Leave Bromley and I think shamefully pursued an

:51:06.:51:10.

will agree that the Leave Bromley anti-immigration agenda, I fought

:51:11.:51:14.

against that pretty hard. I have always stated that I wanted to stay

:51:15.:51:18.

part of the single market, that is what I want for Scotland. We are

:51:19.:51:26.

being part of the UK single market and that is four times more

:51:27.:51:29.

important. We want to be part of both. But putting this Scottish

:51:30.:51:37.

case, would you like to be, or would you expect to be, part of some

:51:38.:51:42.

British government team that is negotiating with the European Union?

:51:43.:51:48.

To be, if you like, the Conservative Party's voice of Scotland? I think

:51:49.:51:50.

what you need in terms of the voice of Scotland is the Scottish

:51:51.:51:54.

Government to be part of it. I have said repeatedly that we want the

:51:55.:51:59.

First Minister to play her part. I will be working closely with

:52:00.:52:01.

colleagues but the important thing is that the Guild administration --

:52:02.:52:05.

the devolved administration are intimately involved in the

:52:06.:52:10.

transition team, and also the regional assemblies, so I think the

:52:11.:52:13.

London mayor, I worked closely with him in the preparation with that

:52:14.:52:17.

debate and I have seen the cut of his jib and he is an incredibly

:52:18.:52:21.

effective and impressive individual who wants to be the voice of his

:52:22.:52:25.

city, he should be part of that negotiation team to. One thing they

:52:26.:52:31.

will ask your advice on is if the Scottish Government does, as the

:52:32.:52:35.

indications are fairly clear, that they may well at some point, call

:52:36.:52:41.

another independence referendum, it is technically in the power of the

:52:42.:52:48.

Dutch government to say no. When, -- of the British government to say

:52:49.:52:49.

Dutch government to say no. When, -- When, rather than if, your

:52:50.:52:54.

colleagues in the UK Government say, should we block this all go ahead,

:52:55.:52:58.

what would your advice be? I am a Democrat but it is too premature to

:52:59.:53:04.

talk about it... It is not premature at all. Have you not heard anything

:53:05.:53:07.

the First Minister has been saying? If you would let me finish, I think

:53:08.:53:15.

it is premature to be talking about the referendum, including the First

:53:16.:53:18.

Minister talking about it. I will talk to you in a Mormon... Can I

:53:19.:53:25.

please finish? You said you are a Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:26.:53:27.

want it and the Scottish Government Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:28.:53:30.

calls it, you should not stand in their way? First of all, there is

:53:31.:53:32.

calls it, you should not stand in not a majority of variety in the

:53:33.:53:36.

country for it, we have seen that in recent polls. I have never said it

:53:37.:53:41.

should be denied, and I did not say that last time. I am saying it is

:53:42.:53:48.

important here, this is important, what is so premature about the First

:53:49.:53:54.

Minister, within three and a half hours of votes being counted on

:53:55.:53:58.

Friday morning, standing up saying she was asking government officials

:53:59.:54:01.

to draw up the necessary legislation for a second independence

:54:02.:54:05.

referendum, we do not know what we would be voting on. Because there is

:54:06.:54:09.

not an offer to the UK Government between the UK Government and the

:54:10.:54:13.

EU. She is not suggesting having a referendum right now. She said

:54:14.:54:16.

within three and a half hours and then she repeated it in parliament

:54:17.:54:20.

on Tuesday, that she would have government officials drawing up the

:54:21.:54:23.

legislation for a second referendum. And I think that is premature, but I

:54:24.:54:28.

also think it is wrong and it is destabilising in a period of

:54:29.:54:35.

instability are ready -- already and it ill becomes her. We also do not

:54:36.:54:41.

know what is anything comes out of the talks he has been having on the

:54:42.:54:45.

continent. We do not know what the options of Scotland and it is

:54:46.:54:48.

incredibly premature to go down this road. The her to put her nationalist

:54:49.:54:56.

party viewership on it, that is not good. We know you disagree with

:54:57.:54:59.

Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying if there is a second referendum, you

:55:00.:55:02.

Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying think as a Democrat that Scotland

:55:03.:55:07.

should be able to have it? I would argue as strong as we could but we

:55:08.:55:12.

stayed part of the single market? But he would not oppose it, you

:55:13.:55:16.

would not say the constitutionally the British gunmen should stop it?

:55:17.:55:21.

They should not block it. -- the British government should stop it.

:55:22.:55:26.

Do you see any prospects of Nicola Sturgeon's idea that there seems to

:55:27.:55:30.

be a way that Scotland could stay part of the European Union while

:55:31.:55:35.

Britain leads? Is that a runner in any way? I think it is unlikely, we

:55:36.:55:41.

have already seen a number of significant experts saying it is

:55:42.:55:45.

unlikely. I think there is a real job for the Scottish Government to

:55:46.:55:50.

do, if Nicola wants to speak to people in Brussels, then absolutely

:55:51.:55:54.

fine and dandy. I think she should also be making sure that the

:55:55.:55:57.

significant effort put in from the Scottish gunmen to be part of the UK

:55:58.:55:59.

Government's progressions right now, I want to make sure she's not just

:56:00.:56:04.

in Brussels, she is also in London. If none of this works and there is

:56:05.:56:08.

another independence referendum, obviously the SNP will fight it in a

:56:09.:56:11.

different way. They will say, this has got nothing to do with

:56:12.:56:15.

nationalism, this is a simple. Do you want to be a citizen of the

:56:16.:56:22.

European Union or a citizen of the United Kingdom? And they will say,

:56:23.:56:26.

unfortunately, you cannot be both. There will be many Conservatives in

:56:27.:56:28.

unfortunately, you cannot be both. Scotland who will find that

:56:29.:56:31.

difficult choice to make. I think she will be saying, do you want

:56:32.:56:35.

leave your biggest market or your second biggest market? You want to

:56:36.:56:38.

change currency, a hard border with the neighbour? It would be an

:56:39.:56:44.

utterly different one. I have fought to referendum campaigns now, I have

:56:45.:56:49.

had all of the Project The stuff thrown at me. Nobody now will think

:56:50.:56:55.

that you can have a huge constitutional changes that enormous

:56:56.:56:56.

economic impact. Would you rather be a citizen of the

:56:57.:57:08.

European Union or of the United Kingdom? I am on record as of saying

:57:09.:57:15.

I want to be both. But you cannot be that now. You have been very upfront

:57:16.:57:22.

about seeing a lot of the votes were not died in the wool Tories. You are

:57:23.:57:29.

saying I would like to be part of Scotland and the European Union

:57:30.:57:34.

rather than a little UK but that might not be enough this time.

:57:35.:57:39.

Coming out of the European Union does not mean we are not Europeans

:57:40.:57:44.

any more. We still have to take part in cultural instances. The Erasmus

:57:45.:57:50.

scheme. The financial services can be part of that and you do not need

:57:51.:57:55.

an EU membership to be part of it. A lot of people who voted Tory will

:57:56.:58:02.

say that is not enough. We are being taken out of the European Union

:58:03.:58:06.

against our will. I do not accept all this congruence seek that the

:58:07.:58:11.

SMP have picked on everyone voting remain therefore also wanting to be

:58:12.:58:17.

independent. People work voting on the UK to stay in the EU. The

:58:18.:58:22.

highest votes for remain were also the places where most people voted

:58:23.:58:28.

against independence so there is no congruence eh. It is wrong of the

:58:29.:58:31.

First Minister to say she takes out her. And what word a referendum

:58:32.:58:37.

result last week while those abusing a referendum results two years ago.

:58:38.:58:42.

We will have to leave it there. Shadow cabinet members are said

:58:43.:58:46.

to be drawing up plans to encourage The MPs want to broker a compromise

:58:47.:58:49.

that would preserve some of the Labour leader's key policies

:58:50.:58:53.

if he quit. Here, Kezia Dugdale called

:58:54.:58:55.

for Mr Corbyn to step aside while her deputy,

:58:56.:58:57.

Alex Rowley, supports And Jeremy Corbyn has been forced

:58:58.:58:59.

to appoint a Shadow Scottish Secretary from

:59:00.:59:04.

the north-east of England. Former First Minister and party

:59:05.:59:09.

leader Henry McLeish joins me Henry McLeish, it should Mr Corbyn

:59:10.:59:29.

go? Yes, I think he should. It is a vexed situation, very challenging

:59:30.:59:34.

for the party. The first step is for Jeremy Cooke step aside. I say that

:59:35.:59:39.

thinking about the future of the party. The Labour Party like most

:59:40.:59:44.

parties are the party of rentable and protest. It has to be a party of

:59:45.:59:48.

power. We talk about the mandate of the membership but I am also

:59:49.:59:51.

convinced we have to have some concern about the mandate of the

:59:52.:59:55.

people when we go to election. What I would say is there is some

:59:56.:00:01.

parallel with the Bernie Sanders situation in America. He brought

:00:02.:00:05.

young people into the party and increased numbers generally and came

:00:06.:00:08.

up with issues about anti-austerity and inequality. That is Jeremy's

:00:09.:00:15.

potential legacy. He can leave now knowing the Parliamentary Labour

:00:16.:00:18.

Party evidence to survive must take a different course. I think the

:00:19.:00:23.

distinction between hard left and soft left there are a set of

:00:24.:00:28.

principles people can adhere to and that we know is the way forward.

:00:29.:00:32.

Technically you should not care too much because you appear to have come

:00:33.:00:35.

out this morning in an article you wrote in the Sunday Times saying

:00:36.:00:40.

you're now in favour of independence? I said the European

:00:41.:00:44.

issue has strengthened positively the case for independence and I

:00:45.:00:48.

could thought for independence but I am also concerned for the future of

:00:49.:00:52.

all text. Throughout the Western democracies there are massive

:00:53.:00:57.

changes taking place. What happens in the United Kingdom matter whether

:00:58.:01:01.

we are in order out of the United Kingdom, in order out of Europe. It

:01:02.:01:06.

is important the party resolves its immediate issue and with the data is

:01:07.:01:11.

goodwill in the world I think enemy should now acknowledge. Let me say

:01:12.:01:15.

deaths. If you look at the history of the Labour Party at has also been

:01:16.:01:21.

about a reform not revolution. Issues like momentum, a party with

:01:22.:01:26.

any party, we cannot simply go on with this. Jeremy Cooke take the

:01:27.:01:28.

statesman-like view and carry on knowing that his issues will be

:01:29.:01:35.

carried on. Let's forget about the big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:36.:01:38.

knew saying now you would like to big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:39.:01:42.

campaign for independence? I see no problem in doing that. I have two

:01:43.:01:48.

issues. I was devastated, it was like a believer and on Friday

:01:49.:01:52.

morning when we took that catastrophic decision to leave the

:01:53.:01:56.

European Union. I think that was a tipping point, a defined in point

:01:57.:02:00.

for me. My other frustration is what on earth can the United Kingdom

:02:01.:02:05.

government, London, Labour Party and Conservative Party dude to satisfy

:02:06.:02:09.

the aspirations of Scots which will not lead to an independent Scotland?

:02:10.:02:13.

Currently the performance has been poor. If you take the Labour Party

:02:14.:02:17.

itself, Jeremy Corbyn apart from having a lack of interest in Europe

:02:18.:02:20.

has not said anything encourage Kezia Dugdale to encourage a radical

:02:21.:02:28.

strategy which would help the United Kingdom. The time is right for us to

:02:29.:02:33.

be talking. But we are not ready for independence even if that was a

:02:34.:02:37.

reality. Have got nation-building to do, questions of the currency, the

:02:38.:02:40.

reality. Have got nation-building to fiscal deficit. It has got to reach

:02:41.:02:45.

a wider audience. What Brexit has shown us is when you have the

:02:46.:02:49.

minority voting for one thing you divide the nation and the internets.

:02:50.:02:52.

The last thing we want to look forward to is a legacy of bitterness

:02:53.:02:56.

The last thing we want to look and division in Scotland have been

:02:57.:03:03.

at the decision of one or the other. If some say we read your article in

:03:04.:03:09.

the paper with great interest and what you called the genuine

:03:10.:03:11.

progressive alliance for independence which is much broader

:03:12.:03:17.

than just the SMP, right, we are going to take you at your word, we

:03:18.:03:21.

want to start some movement which will build the board over it a

:03:22.:03:27.

number of years for independence. That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:28.:03:33.

do not think I would want to read That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:34.:03:39.

it. I am not Jeremy, I am Gordon! Jeremy is the leader of the Labour

:03:40.:03:44.

Party! My apologies. I am sure there are better things I could have

:03:45.:03:49.

described it as. My aim is to get the Labour Party be engaged in the

:03:50.:03:52.

constitutional question. There is no point in Libra getting involved

:03:53.:03:56.

unless we can catch the constitutional issue. I want Labour

:03:57.:04:01.

even if they disagree with independence as Ruth Davidson

:04:02.:04:04.

tenting in higher approach, to engage. We have to engage or we are

:04:05.:04:08.

being squeezed out. That would be for me to illustrate the weaknesses

:04:09.:04:11.

of the current approach to independence because there are many.

:04:12.:04:16.

What it does require is, if Scots are to have a choice in the future

:04:17.:04:20.

whether it be in the European Union or in the UK, there also must be an

:04:21.:04:23.

alternative waiting to counter independence. What I am say is that

:04:24.:04:29.

my frustration has got me to a point where I want Labour to succeed in

:04:30.:04:33.

love this. I am not talking about joining independence. Many Labour

:04:34.:04:38.

Party have had to go to the SMP. This is not the preserve of the SMP.

:04:39.:04:44.

It is Scotland's future, the future of all the parties. Let me make one

:04:45.:04:48.

thing clear, it should not be the preserve, a majority issue of the

:04:49.:04:53.

centre peak, the First Minister or nationalism. Vision of Scotland is

:04:54.:04:58.

an issue for all parties which is why I am really concerned that

:04:59.:05:02.

Labour does enter that debate one way or another and helps build the

:05:03.:05:05.

progressive alliance which views the best future for Scotland regardless

:05:06.:05:09.

of whether independence is in fashion right now. I am taking a

:05:10.:05:16.

usable view of all this in the case of Scotland naughty party. Do you

:05:17.:05:21.

intend to remain a member of the Labour Party? There is nowhere else

:05:22.:05:29.

I want to go. I had an evangelical socialist grandfather and socialist

:05:30.:05:36.

grandmother. All the last few years I have agonised, written and battled

:05:37.:05:41.

to see what we is best for Scotland and the United Kingdom. I am going

:05:42.:05:45.

simply nowhere. All I want from my party is to be recognised as an

:05:46.:05:49.

engage, recognised as having a vision and being of domestic. I want

:05:50.:05:55.

the party to do that, not the SMP. I have little truck with nationalism,

:05:56.:06:01.

little truck with the idea of independence that does not have a

:06:02.:06:06.

model like Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Norway. That is the big issue for

:06:07.:06:10.

me. What about the opposite side, why can you make a comeback? Your

:06:11.:06:14.

crimes and misdemeanours are pretty much forgotten about. Look at Mr

:06:15.:06:20.

Lord who ended up back in the government. Why don't you come back

:06:21.:06:24.

and be leader of the Labour Party? You can gather by the colour of my

:06:25.:06:28.

hair I am ageing. My optimism knows no bounds. A bottle of Grecian 2000

:06:29.:06:39.

and you'd be there! My vanity might permit that. I would try. I believe

:06:40.:06:45.

in Kezia Dugdale. She is a young woman with great potential. She

:06:46.:06:48.

needs a party around her who want to engage. The principles on which the

:06:49.:06:54.

party was formed. If I can help I want to do that but it is not for

:06:55.:07:00.

me, it is for hard. OK, we will take that as a heavy hint. Thank you very

:07:01.:07:02.

much, Henry McLeish. Brexit hasn't been the only

:07:03.:07:05.

item on the EU's agenda. Two days before the referendum vote

:07:06.:07:07.

here, member states voted to extend Leaders have tied the repeal

:07:08.:07:10.

of the sanctions to progress on the Ukrainian peace deal,

:07:11.:07:13.

known as the Minsk agreement. That truce called for the handover

:07:14.:07:15.

of control of rebel-held portions of Ukraine's border with Russia

:07:16.:07:18.

to the authorities in Kiev, along with constitutional reforms

:07:19.:07:21.

that would give more autonomy to Russia-affiliated

:07:22.:07:23.

territories in eastern Ukraine. A short while ago I spoke

:07:24.:07:24.

to Natalia Galibarenko, who is the Ukrainian ambassador

:07:25.:07:29.

to the UK, and is in Edinburgh First of all it is worth reminding

:07:30.:07:46.

ourselves that the proximate cause of the demonstrations back in 2014

:07:47.:07:54.

was an accession agreement with the European Union that Ukraine had

:07:55.:07:55.

negotiated and which the then president went back on. Given that,

:07:56.:08:03.

what on earth do people in Ukraine make of what has happened in Britain

:08:04.:08:07.

over the past week? For sure I can tell you there was quite a massive

:08:08.:08:15.

misunderstanding in Ukraine. The amount of people, politicians,

:08:16.:08:18.

diplomats, what actually happened and why? What are the reasons behind

:08:19.:08:24.

the choice? Ukrainians made the choice in favour of the European

:08:25.:08:27.

Union and so that is why there was quite a misunderstanding by the

:08:28.:08:33.

British people decided otherwise. However, you know, there is the

:08:34.:08:37.

beginning of quite a profound analysis in Ukraine of why it

:08:38.:08:41.

happened. The main question now is what the British people will do

:08:42.:08:46.

next. How the new negotiations will go with the European Union. The most

:08:47.:08:51.

important question for us, what will be with the UK protester beat in the

:08:52.:08:56.

no cessation agreement because the UK was also a part of our cessation

:08:57.:09:00.

agreement and the question now is how we will also be negotiating on a

:09:01.:09:06.

bilateral basis what to do with this participation. I think the peak of

:09:07.:09:11.

panic and chaos about what happened is already over also in Ukraine and

:09:12.:09:15.

there is an understanding that despite the choice about the Brexit,

:09:16.:09:22.

the British people and Britain will remain staunch supporters of

:09:23.:09:27.

Ukraine. What are the ambitions of the current government of Mr Potter

:09:28.:09:32.

Schenkel in regards to the European Union? Do you want to go ahead with

:09:33.:09:39.

some sort of association agreement? Is the ambition eventually perhaps

:09:40.:09:43.

to become members of the European Union? In the long run of course we

:09:44.:09:47.

are looking forward to entering the European Union at some point. When

:09:48.:09:51.

the appropriate criteria will be met. Now we are looking

:09:52.:09:56.

realistically at the situation we are not ready to be a member of the

:09:57.:10:00.

European Union and the European Union is definitely not ready to

:10:01.:10:05.

embrace Ukraine at this moment. The priorities of the government now is

:10:06.:10:11.

to reform the country. To make the democracy really sustainable. To

:10:12.:10:15.

revive our economic situation and also the main challenges the

:10:16.:10:19.

security situation while we have military aggression in the east of

:10:20.:10:24.

Ukraine. What about the association agreement that caused all the

:10:25.:10:29.

controversy at the time? Is there an ambition to at least have an

:10:30.:10:33.

association agreement with the European Union or has that been

:10:34.:10:37.

cancelled because of treasure from Mr Hughton and others? You know that

:10:38.:10:45.

the cessation agreement is already underway. To say in a provisional

:10:46.:10:52.

matter. Still the complete notification and they are

:10:53.:10:56.

implemented already 90% of the agreement itself. The problem now is

:10:57.:10:59.

what to do with the Netherlands. After the Dutch referendum there

:11:00.:11:03.

should be some amendment made how the Netherlands will be covered by

:11:04.:11:09.

our cessation agreement and also as I mentioned there will be a question

:11:10.:11:13.

what to do with the UK participation in the agreement.

:11:14.:11:17.

What is the latest situation as far as you are concerned in the rebel

:11:18.:11:29.

areas in the area? Is there any possibility of those areas being

:11:30.:11:33.

fully reintegrated into Ukraine? To be frank with you, the situation is

:11:34.:11:39.

very far from positive. I am afraid that we are not in a position to

:11:40.:11:43.

speak about the forthcoming settlement or the situation on

:11:44.:11:52.

these. The problem there is the actual desire, there is no desire

:11:53.:11:57.

for the Russians to implement security on the ground. Of course,

:11:58.:12:00.

our idea is to reintegrate the areas security on the ground. Of course,

:12:01.:12:06.

into our territory and keep our country united, and also make our

:12:07.:12:15.

area free from intervention from the Russian federation. But this dance

:12:16.:12:22.

area free from intervention from the requires two dancers to play. And

:12:23.:12:27.

what about Crimea, realistically? Has Ukraine accepted that Crimea is

:12:28.:12:35.

unlikely to return? We will never accept that Crimea is annexed by the

:12:36.:12:38.

Russian Federation, and we will be trying to keep the Crimean issue on

:12:39.:12:40.

Russian Federation, and we will be the international agenda. But I

:12:41.:12:44.

Russian Federation, and we will be absolutely agree that factor, we are

:12:45.:12:47.

not controlling the Crimea, and we are more concerned about the human

:12:48.:12:56.

rights violations on the peninsular, and the Ukrainians on the peninsular

:12:57.:13:01.

are limited in their right, for examples they were forced to receive

:13:02.:13:05.

Russian passport and denied Ukrainian citizenship automatically

:13:06.:13:10.

without any permission from the people. But again, the idea is in a

:13:11.:13:19.

peaceful manner, I emphasise, in a peaceful manner to try and attract

:13:20.:13:23.

Crimean people to show that they would be more happy in the United

:13:24.:13:27.

Ukraine, not with Russian Federation. And I assume Ukraine

:13:28.:13:35.

does not accept the legitimacy of the referendum that took Crimea out

:13:36.:13:39.

of Ukraine? Of course, that was absolutely a fake referendum,

:13:40.:13:45.

organised under the guns of Russian military. 90%, or they wanted to

:13:46.:13:54.

depict 102% of voters, that does not matter. The point is that of the

:13:55.:13:59.

international community also does not recognise the Crimean referendum

:14:00.:14:02.

and the General Assembly resolution is speaking about the same. You are

:14:03.:14:07.

addressing the Scottish Parliament tomorrow, I believe, what do you

:14:08.:14:11.

want to tell them? I would be meeting with the members of the

:14:12.:14:17.

Parliament, and the Speaker of the Scottish parliament. I think there

:14:18.:14:21.

are many possibilities for Ukraine and Scotland to develop original

:14:22.:14:30.

cooperation. The crucial thing for Ukraine is reform, devolution of

:14:31.:14:39.

power. So Scotland is a very profound partner in this regard.

:14:40.:14:43.

They can share their experience, how to do this in the best way, with the

:14:44.:14:49.

demolition of power. So on the one hand -- the devolution of power. So

:14:50.:14:53.

on the one hand, if you are getting more rights, people in the local

:14:54.:14:57.

communities receive it but they also receive more responsibility. That is

:14:58.:15:00.

the combination I would like to discuss with my Scottish partner.

:15:01.:15:12.

Thank you for joining us. Next week we will see the first

:15:13.:15:18.

round of voting for the Conservative candidates, the future for Jeremy

:15:19.:15:22.

Corbyn and the publication of the Chilcott Report on Wednesday.

:15:23.:15:25.

Joining me is the political editor at the Courier, Kieran Andrews,

:15:26.:15:27.

and the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire,

:15:28.:15:29.

Do you think Corbin should go? I think he is going to have to. His

:15:30.:15:39.

position is not sustainable any more. He has had over 80% of the

:15:40.:15:46.

Parliamentary Labour Party who has said he should stand down, it is not

:15:47.:15:50.

just that, it is across the UK now. We have got members, councillors

:15:51.:15:52.

just that, it is across the UK now. calling him to go. There is no doubt

:15:53.:15:56.

that both sides feel they are battling the heart and soul of the

:15:57.:16:00.

Labour Party at the moment so I think it will get more messy before

:16:01.:16:05.

it gets better. There has always been this tension in the Labour

:16:06.:16:08.

Party, usually it muddles through, between those who think that the

:16:09.:16:12.

leader is elected by the members and should be accountable to the members

:16:13.:16:16.

of the Labour Party, and others who say, hang on, MPs are elected by

:16:17.:16:20.

millions of people, they have to do have a vote and a say in that and it

:16:21.:16:25.

is more conjugated, but Inc stream times, the division of view is

:16:26.:16:31.

becoming an extreme split. -- in extreme times. Both are members and

:16:32.:16:35.

the MPs have an important role in choosing the leader, but the problem

:16:36.:16:39.

is last year, a number of MPs allow Jeremy Corbyn on the ballot paper

:16:40.:16:46.

but did not support him, so he now has no confidence from the MPs. What

:16:47.:16:55.

would you say to those 250 people -- 250,000 people, I know some people

:16:56.:16:58.

will denigrate them as one click, they have paid their money though,

:16:59.:17:03.

and they have all supported Jeremy Corbyn. They are all going to be

:17:04.:17:10.

ignored. They are not going to be ignored. If he runs again, he will

:17:11.:17:17.

win. I am not sure. He has had a shot at the leadership, and people

:17:18.:17:21.

even who voted for him are now saying, it is not good enough. I

:17:22.:17:25.

think if he was running an efficient operation, the matter his policies,

:17:26.:17:28.

people might give him more of a chance but what we are seeing at the

:17:29.:17:33.

top of the Labour Party is a shambles. What do you make of this?

:17:34.:17:38.

The problem with the Labour rebels who want a clue here, is that they

:17:39.:17:42.

have walked Jeremy Corbyn to the bridge and failed to push him off.

:17:43.:17:46.

There is no alternative, that is not seem to be any sort of plan. It has

:17:47.:17:50.

been one of the worst cases of regicide you could possibly imagine.

:17:51.:17:54.

Regicide where you do not a chilly kill the King. -- you don't kill the

:17:55.:18:01.

king, you just growl. Yes, and there is no challenge to the throne. They

:18:02.:18:06.

are saying, Labour MPs are saying, we will knife you, but they are

:18:07.:18:10.

waving spoons around in the air. There is no challenge, it has been a

:18:11.:18:16.

botched operation so far. It is every bit as shambolic the

:18:17.:18:18.

organisers Jeremy Corbyn's leadership so far. -- shambolic Lee

:18:19.:18:28.

organised. If this is not a clue, there is party that Labour can learn

:18:29.:18:39.

from as it comes to nice stabbing. If you want a good example, Boris

:18:40.:18:43.

Johnson was dispatched by Michael Gove efficiently, swiftly and

:18:44.:18:47.

without any mercy. Stabbed from the front, back, any which way you could

:18:48.:18:53.

imagine. And now the Tories are turning on themselves down

:18:54.:18:57.

Westminster as well, there is not enough corners to brief. Where do

:18:58.:19:02.

you think Michael Gove is left? He was on TV this morning saying he

:19:03.:19:06.

stabbed Boris in the interests of the nation, will not be credible? I

:19:07.:19:11.

don't think so. There is a case that Michael Gove looked at Boris Johnson

:19:12.:19:15.

and thought, here is a man without a plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:16.:19:18.

take him out. But when you step back plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:19.:19:22.

and look at the way he stabbed David Cameron in the back to go and

:19:23.:19:28.

campaign for Leave, he has done the same to Boris Johnson, he does not

:19:29.:19:32.

look like trustworthy politician. What do you make of it, from your

:19:33.:19:36.

depths of your depression? At least you can laugh the Tories. At least

:19:37.:19:41.

they are, they are taking attention away from the Labour Party so that

:19:42.:19:50.

is good. To -- Theresa May is strong candidate and I think it will be

:19:51.:19:53.

difficult for anyone to beat her, it looks like she is running away from

:19:54.:19:57.

it. Assembly who wants to see the Labour Party doing well, I am very

:19:58.:20:00.

pleased that it does not look like Stephen Crabb is doing well. He is

:20:01.:20:04.

somebody who would start to reach into labour support, I think, ...

:20:05.:20:14.

Really? Yes, that working-class vote in the North who voted Leave in the

:20:15.:20:18.

referendum, if you look at his back story. I am happy that he does not

:20:19.:20:22.

appear to be getting too much attention. I think there is a huge

:20:23.:20:26.

question over Michael Gove's character. The Chilcott enquiry, it

:20:27.:20:31.

is almost forgotten, it was such a huge issue but it is going to be

:20:32.:20:37.

when the report comes out. Almost inevitably there will be calls for

:20:38.:20:39.

retribution. Absolutely. It will reignite again and it has fallen by

:20:40.:20:46.

the wayside slightly in light of the madness we have seen last week in

:20:47.:20:50.

British politics. But this will add to it and push again, there has been

:20:51.:20:55.

chat around the Houses of Parliament to it and push again, there has been

:20:56.:20:58.

that Jeremy Corbyn is hanging on just so he can do a bit of knife

:20:59.:21:02.

plunging off his own into Tony Blair when the report comes out. But the

:21:03.:21:09.

problem is, that is very critical Chilcott Report will add to the

:21:10.:21:15.

sense that politicians are all at it, they are all liars. I think the

:21:16.:21:19.

report is very important particularly to people who have lost

:21:20.:21:28.

loved ones or who have sustained injuries, this is a serious piece of

:21:29.:21:32.

work and it is a shame it has taken so long. The question is, is it

:21:33.:21:36.

going to change the way we do foreign policy in the UK, will it

:21:37.:21:38.

make a difference about how the wake we make foreign policy decisions? We

:21:39.:21:43.

will have to see it come out but I do not know if it will have an

:21:44.:21:46.

impact because I think we have already had the impact. Thank you

:21:47.:21:50.

very much. That is all we have time for this week. I will be back next

:21:51.:21:53.

week. Until then, goodbye.

:21:54.:21:55.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by former Labour deputy leader Lord Prescott, Conservative leadership candidate Dr Liam Fox, former shadow cabinet minister Chris Bryant and newly appointed shadow energy and climate change secretary Barry Gardiner. The Political Panel consists of Helen Lewis of the New Statesman, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail.


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