22/01/2017 Sunday Politics South East


22/01/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

:00:40.:00:43.

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

:00:44.:00:45.

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

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Speaking of the 45th President of America,

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we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

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in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

:01:00.:01:05.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

:01:06.:01:08.

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

:01:09.:01:11.

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott what Labour will do next.

:01:12.:01:16.

And in the South East, dumping rubbish is on the rise.

:01:17.:01:19.

So, do we need sharper teeth to help fight the fly-tippers?

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And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

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journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

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relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

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and their willingness to come to the studio

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

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tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

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So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

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She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

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but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

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It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

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from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

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The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

:02:30.:02:38.

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

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The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

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It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

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whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

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That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

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That's what the House of Commons voted for.

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He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

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There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

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What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

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I'm not going to get an answer to this.

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Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

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front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

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wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

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the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

:03:46.:03:48.

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

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Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

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read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

:04:04.:04:08.

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

:04:09.:04:12.

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

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replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

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have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

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If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

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matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

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that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

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End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

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good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

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is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

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and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

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and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

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point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

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suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

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because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

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But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

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awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

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missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

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comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

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struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

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we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

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missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

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What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

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they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

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work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

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known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

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on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

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would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

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from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

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mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

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as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

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going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

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Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

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Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

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anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

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So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

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to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

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President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

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Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

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instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

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attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

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class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

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from the campaign trail to the White House.

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Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

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First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

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Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

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I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

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The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

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the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

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From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

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In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

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Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

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The President, who'd criticised the work of

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the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

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There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

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And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

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the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

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So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

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inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

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in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

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He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

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American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

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parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

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act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

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warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

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Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

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restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

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said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

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threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

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bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

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order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

:10:27.:10:31.

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

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first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

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is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

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he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

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choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

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just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

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he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

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made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

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office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

:11:09.:11:11.

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

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a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

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Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

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the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

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Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

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act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

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oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

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or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

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in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

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unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

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called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

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creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

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institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

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at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

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prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

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something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

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consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

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president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

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so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

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institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

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argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

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involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

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with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

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stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

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world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

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have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

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power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

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foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

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around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

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may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

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and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

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Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

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more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

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tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

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still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

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Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

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clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

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in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

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relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

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president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

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critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

:14:56.:15:00.

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

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anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

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I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

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will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

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State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

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him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

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successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

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already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

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you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

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institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

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millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

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is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

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an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

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tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

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The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

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said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

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front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

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solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

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emphasis is going to change American life, including American

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International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

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mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

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national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

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inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

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White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

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difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

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protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

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no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

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the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

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think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

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you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

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senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

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administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

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how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

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a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

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bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

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also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

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election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

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and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

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mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

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trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

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world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

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leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

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businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

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debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

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the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

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reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

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lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

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walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

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from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

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that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

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between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

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important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

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lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

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you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

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the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

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Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

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Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

:20:02.:20:07.

hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

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him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

:20:16.:20:18.

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

:20:19.:20:22.

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

:20:23.:20:28.

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

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of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

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Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

:20:38.:20:41.

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

:20:42.:20:47.

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

:20:48.:20:54.

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

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herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

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Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

:21:05.:21:08.

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

:21:09.:21:13.

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

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another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

:21:19.:21:24.

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

:21:25.:21:27.

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

:21:28.:21:33.

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

:21:34.:21:37.

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

:21:38.:21:41.

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

:21:42.:21:44.

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

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deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

:21:52.:21:56.

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

:21:57.:21:59.

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

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into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

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ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

:22:09.:22:16.

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

:22:17.:22:18.

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

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are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

:22:26.:22:29.

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

:22:30.:22:35.

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

:22:36.:22:39.

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

:22:40.:22:47.

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

:22:48.:22:50.

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

:22:51.:22:55.

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

:22:56.:22:58.

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

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word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

:23:05.:23:08.

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

:23:09.:23:13.

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

:23:14.:23:18.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

:23:19.:23:22.

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

:23:23.:23:31.

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

:23:32.:23:35.

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

:23:36.:23:39.

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

:23:40.:23:45.

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

:23:46.:23:51.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

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So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

:23:55.:23:57.

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

:23:58.:23:59.

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

:24:00.:24:02.

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

:24:03.:24:05.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

:24:06.:24:07.

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

:24:08.:24:09.

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

:24:10.:24:13.

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

:24:14.:24:18.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

:24:19.:24:21.

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

:24:22.:24:24.

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

:24:25.:24:28.

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

:24:29.:24:31.

It should give British companies the maximum

:24:32.:24:36.

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

:24:37.:24:39.

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

:24:40.:24:48.

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

:24:49.:25:03.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

:25:04.:25:06.

As the European Parliament voted for its new

:25:07.:25:11.

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

:25:12.:25:18.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

:25:19.:25:20.

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

:25:21.:25:23.

of free zone or tax haven, I

:25:24.:25:26.

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

:25:27.:25:32.

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

:25:33.:25:35.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

:25:36.:25:39.

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

:25:40.:25:49.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

:25:50.:25:52.

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

:25:53.:25:57.

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

:25:58.:26:00.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

:26:01.:26:04.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

:26:05.:26:07.

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

:26:08.:26:09.

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

:26:10.:26:16.

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

:26:17.:26:20.

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

:26:21.:26:24.

There will, at the end of this deal process,

:26:25.:26:27.

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

:26:28.:26:30.

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

:26:31.:26:33.

if this process started with democracy last June,

:26:34.:26:35.

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

:26:36.:26:39.

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

:26:40.:26:46.

watching it in a small room somewhere?

:26:47.:26:48.

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

:26:49.:26:55.

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

:26:56.:26:58.

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

:26:59.:27:00.

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

:27:01.:27:02.

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

:27:03.:27:06.

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

:27:07.:27:13.

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

:27:14.:27:16.

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

:27:17.:27:18.

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

:27:19.:27:24.

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

:27:25.:27:33.

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

:27:34.:27:43.

anticipating since the referendum result,

:27:44.:27:45.

particularly around the

:27:46.:27:46.

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

:27:47.:27:50.

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

:27:51.:27:54.

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

:27:55.:27:58.

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

:27:59.:28:01.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

:28:02.:28:03.

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

:28:04.:28:05.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

:28:06.:28:23.

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

:28:24.:28:26.

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

:28:27.:28:30.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

:28:31.:28:39.

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

:28:40.:28:43.

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

:28:44.:28:48.

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

:28:49.:28:51.

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

:28:52.:28:56.

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

:28:57.:28:59.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

:29:00.:29:06.

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

:29:07.:29:11.

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

:29:12.:29:15.

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

:29:16.:29:22.

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

:29:23.:29:27.

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

:29:28.:29:32.

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

:29:33.:29:35.

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

:29:36.:29:42.

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

:29:43.:29:50.

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

:29:51.:29:54.

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

:29:55.:29:58.

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

:29:59.:30:02.

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

:30:03.:30:07.

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

:30:08.:30:12.

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

:30:13.:30:15.

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

:30:16.:30:18.

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

:30:19.:30:23.

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

:30:24.:30:28.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

:30:29.:30:36.

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

:30:37.:30:41.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

:30:42.:30:47.

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

:30:48.:30:52.

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

:30:53.:30:58.

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

:30:59.:31:02.

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

:31:03.:31:06.

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

:31:07.:31:13.

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

:31:14.:31:19.

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

:31:20.:31:24.

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

:31:25.:31:29.

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

:31:30.:31:35.

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

:31:36.:31:38.

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

:31:39.:31:45.

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

:31:46.:31:57.

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

:31:58.:32:02.

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

:32:03.:32:08.

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

:32:09.:32:17.

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

:32:18.:32:22.

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

:32:23.:32:27.

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

:32:28.:32:33.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

:32:34.:32:39.

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

:32:40.:32:45.

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

:32:46.:32:50.

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

:32:51.:32:55.

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

:32:56.:32:59.

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

:33:00.:33:03.

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

:33:04.:33:11.

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

:33:12.:33:18.

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

:33:19.:33:22.

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

:33:23.:33:28.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

:33:29.:33:34.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

:33:35.:33:43.

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

:33:44.:33:50.

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

:33:51.:33:55.

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

:33:56.:33:59.

including being a member of the single market, without

:34:00.:34:02.

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

:34:03.:34:07.

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

:34:08.:34:15.

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

:34:16.:34:20.

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

:34:21.:34:24.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

:34:25.:34:31.

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

:34:32.:34:36.

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

:34:37.:34:45.

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

:34:46.:34:55.

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

:34:56.:35:04.

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

:35:05.:35:09.

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

:35:10.:35:15.

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

:35:16.:35:19.

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

:35:20.:35:24.

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

:35:25.:35:30.

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

:35:31.:35:35.

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

:35:36.:35:43.

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

:35:44.:35:49.

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

:35:50.:35:54.

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

:35:55.:35:58.

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

:35:59.:36:03.

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

:36:04.:36:10.

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

:36:11.:36:15.

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

:36:16.:36:19.

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

:36:20.:36:25.

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

:36:26.:36:31.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

:36:32.:36:40.

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

:36:41.:36:44.

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

:36:45.:36:48.

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

:36:49.:36:51.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:52.:36:52.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:53.:36:55.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

:36:56.:36:58.

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

:36:59.:37:00.

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

:37:01.:37:03.

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

:37:04.:37:06.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:07.:37:17.

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics

:37:18.:37:19.

Coming up later, dumping rubbish is a growing problem.

:37:20.:37:22.

So, why are so few councils making the most of their new powers

:37:23.:37:25.

Joining me in the studio today are Craig Mackinlay,

:37:26.:37:31.

Conservative MP for South Thanet, and by Peter Chowney,

:37:32.:37:33.

the Labour Leader of Hastings Borough Council.

:37:34.:37:36.

It is budget time for our councils and, this week, West

:37:37.:37:41.

and East Sussex and Surrey all published their financial

:37:42.:37:44.

Surrey has proposed a 15% increase to council tax and that means

:37:45.:37:51.

they will need to ask you if you agree, in a referendum.

:37:52.:37:55.

Craig, I will start with you, as this is a Conservative council

:37:56.:38:02.

I think we have to accept that we are having to deal

:38:03.:38:07.

It is great that we have all living longer, but that brings

:38:08.:38:11.

challenges for the NHS, challenges to adult social

:38:12.:38:13.

care and, of course, also, to the pension system.

:38:14.:38:16.

Now, of course, it is very difficult to know if the electors

:38:17.:38:21.

There was was a piece on South East last night,

:38:22.:38:25.

in which some people were saying, they thought

:38:26.:38:27.

they felt it was all right, because it was an affluent area, etc,

:38:28.:38:30.

but I'm sure it will be similarly opposed by some others.

:38:31.:38:33.

What I think we need is we cannot just keep saying, "Oh, it is

:38:34.:38:37.

central government", as if there is some magic money pit.

:38:38.:38:39.

But you are happy for the electorate to make

:38:40.:38:41.

It is maybe even wrong for me to assess whether there is

:38:42.:38:46.

demographic problem different to Kent, but I would assume,

:38:47.:38:49.

This is not a one-off council tax rise in Surrey, though.

:38:50.:38:53.

They have routinely raised the council tax.

:38:54.:38:55.

I was speaking to the Taxpayers' Alliance about this.

:38:56.:38:57.

They say they have raised it 82% in real terms over recent years.

:38:58.:39:00.

This is also a council where, not two years ago,

:39:01.:39:03.

they voted themselves bumper increases in their allowances.

:39:04.:39:05.

It is about ?200 for a Band D property in Surrey.

:39:06.:39:14.

It is the weekly shop for many families.

:39:15.:39:19.

It is up to the local people to decide,

:39:20.:39:21.

are they going to go along with this or not?

:39:22.:39:23.

How are we going to pay for the demands of an ageing population?

:39:24.:39:28.

There was a report commissioned a few years ago about how we might

:39:29.:39:31.

It was hoped that private insurance may cover that,

:39:32.:39:34.

but we have not got there yet. It is a serious debate.

:39:35.:39:41.

OK, it is a good way to also duck the question,

:39:42.:39:43.

Is it time to bring elderly social care into being funded centrally,

:39:44.:39:49.

so it is not is not at the mercy of richer or poorer

:39:50.:39:52.

Yes, I think it is. I think Surrey will have difficulty

:39:53.:39:56.

making a referendum for that amount to stick, to win that.

:39:57.:39:59.

But I respect their right to do it and I can understand why they are

:40:00.:40:02.

But I do think social care needs to be funded centrally.

:40:03.:40:06.

But the money has to come from somewhere, in the end.

:40:07.:40:10.

It is all very well just talking about

:40:11.:40:13.

insurance schemes and "we need to think it through", but in the end,

:40:14.:40:16.

it is an increasingly ageing population.

:40:17.:40:17.

There are more old people and the money has got

:40:18.:40:20.

It is an interesting one politically.

:40:21.:40:24.

This is a Conservative council pretty much

:40:25.:40:25.

sticking it to a conservative government.

:40:26.:40:32.

I wonder if they are actually showing themselves to be a more

:40:33.:40:35.

effective opposition than the Parliamentary Labour Party?

:40:36.:40:36.

It is a local authority, same as we all are.

:40:37.:40:40.

Many of us in local authorities are complaining about

:40:41.:40:42.

the shortage of funding, the cuts, the massive cuts in local

:40:43.:40:45.

I recognise it is particularly difficult for county councils.

:40:46.:40:49.

And where they have huge bills with adult social care,

:40:50.:40:52.

it is a big consumer of money and that is a big problem for them.

:40:53.:40:56.

We will find out in May whether they get the

:40:57.:40:59.

referendum through and also whether the council

:41:00.:41:00.

is voted back in, as well. A bit of a wait for that.

:41:01.:41:04.

I would say that referendums do tend to go funny ways.

:41:05.:41:06.

You described it as funny. That's an interesting one.

:41:07.:41:10.

Now, it was the biggest speech on Brexit since the referendum.

:41:11.:41:14.

And although there was plenty discussion about the Prime

:41:15.:41:16.

Minister's plan for Britain to leave the single market, there

:41:17.:41:19.

was little detail for the one of the South East's most vocal

:41:20.:41:22.

Many fishermen had supported Leave and, this week,

:41:23.:41:25.

a group of them went to Downing Street to meet Ministers.

:41:26.:41:27.

They campaigned to leave the European Union and sailed down

:41:28.:41:36.

They say the Common Fisheries Policy, which restricts the quota,

:41:37.:41:40.

size and type of fish they can catch, was broken.

:41:41.:41:42.

The fishermen want Britain to reclaim its

:41:43.:41:44.

waters and limit foreign boats fishing off UK shores.

:41:45.:41:52.

Our industry has been decimated by EU regulations.

:41:53.:41:54.

I have not got enough quota to earn a living at the moment.

:41:55.:41:57.

I could earn a living less than two miles from the harbour and I am

:41:58.:42:01.

having to travel 17-18 miles, to avoid species of fish that

:42:02.:42:04.

Seven months after the vote to leave the

:42:05.:42:12.

European Union there is still uncertainty

:42:13.:42:13.

as to what Brexit will mean for the fishing industry.

:42:14.:42:24.

If the UK opts for the Great Repeal Bill,

:42:25.:42:26.

to absorb EU rules into British law,

:42:27.:42:30.

the fisheries policy would still exist for the time being,

:42:31.:42:32.

while Brexit negotiations take place.

:42:33.:42:34.

But the campaign group, Fishing For Leave, are calling for:

:42:35.:42:36.

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

:42:37.:42:38.

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

:42:39.:42:44.

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

:42:45.:42:47.

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

:42:48.:42:51.

The government remains committed to being a champion of sustainable

:42:52.:42:54.

fisheries and ending discards, as set out in our manifesto.

:42:55.:42:56.

We're also committed to the continued cooperation with

:42:57.:42:58.

other countries for the management of shared stocks.

:42:59.:43:05.

Fishing For Leave will publish its full list of demands in

:43:06.:43:07.

So much remains unclear about what will be happen

:43:08.:43:12.

once Brexit is in place, how many of them do

:43:13.:43:14.

We can go to Ramsgate Port now and talk to the head of

:43:15.:43:20.

the Thanet Fishermen's Association, John Nichols.

:43:21.:43:21.

He is one of those representatives of the fishing industry who went to

:43:22.:43:25.

John, you met with the ministers concerned.

:43:26.:43:27.

Well, it was a golden opportunity to go and sit before

:43:28.:43:38.

them and present this - the way forward for fishing in the UK.

:43:39.:43:45.

The foundation stone of what we are looking to achieve.

:43:46.:43:48.

What are you hoping to achieve? Boil it down for us.

:43:49.:43:50.

We do not have time at the moment to read

:43:51.:43:53.

the book, so tell us what you are looking for?

:43:54.:43:58.

I think the first thing is we must remove ourselves 100%

:43:59.:44:01.

which has been a failed policy since the day

:44:02.:44:07.

We need to get away from that and then work out where we are going

:44:08.:44:15.

with this document and find the proper way forward.

:44:16.:44:18.

One of the most important things is to stop discarding.

:44:19.:44:23.

When the country voted to leave the EU,

:44:24.:44:26.

did you assume Brexit would set fishermen free?

:44:27.:44:35.

I suppose it is a hope that it would set fishermen free.

:44:36.:44:38.

But you also have to realise that, in the past,

:44:39.:44:40.

Edward Heath traded us off for better things in Europe

:44:41.:44:48.

We do not want to be traded off again.

:44:49.:44:51.

So, yes, I totally believe we can achieve a

:44:52.:44:53.

proper Brexit for the fisheries and hand our

:44:54.:44:55.

When you talked to the ministers, what did they say to you?

:44:56.:45:03.

Are you encouraged that they were listening to you?

:45:04.:45:07.

I think we are encouraged at the moment, when you are there.

:45:08.:45:14.

But when you are removed from it and then think

:45:15.:45:16.

about it afterwards, there are big holes in what you have listened to.

:45:17.:45:21.

As far as David Jones is concerned, I am reasonably confident that

:45:22.:45:24.

he will read this document, take it on board and see the advantages of

:45:25.:45:27.

With George Eustace, I am just worried that he

:45:28.:45:35.

He's looking after both the agricultural

:45:36.:45:39.

I think that is too much for one person to do.

:45:40.:45:47.

I think, when you look at our sea mass, our square area of the sea

:45:48.:45:50.

is three times greater than that of the land.

:45:51.:45:52.

He is trying to look after the sea and trying to

:45:53.:45:55.

I did not think he is capable of doing both.

:45:56.:46:00.

John, thank you very much for joining us.

:46:01.:46:07.

John Nichols is worried that they are going to be,

:46:08.:46:10.

in his words, traded off again. There is a chance they will be.

:46:11.:46:13.

Do you worry that the Leave campaign promised the fishermen too much?

:46:14.:46:16.

I meet with the fishermen in Ramsgate

:46:17.:46:20.

regularly and know what the demands are.

:46:21.:46:22.

I have actually got that document and I am working my

:46:23.:46:25.

I am actually working on my own Fishing After Brexit

:46:26.:46:29.

How many of these things do we need?!

:46:30.:46:33.

I think it will be very much a similar flavour to their one.

:46:34.:46:37.

Let us be clear about how we got into this dreadful

:46:38.:46:39.

The Common Fisheries Policy has not worked for Britain.

:46:40.:46:42.

It has not worked for the under-12m fleet and it is time

:46:43.:46:45.

You were making noises when they were talking

:46:46.:46:48.

John and his crowd have put together a new policy forward, whereby

:46:49.:46:55.

This is very workable, particularly for the inshore fleet,

:46:56.:46:59.

It is sustainable, it is environmentally friendly and it is

:47:00.:47:03.

not the huge volume of these factory ships.

:47:04.:47:08.

Is there not a risk that, if we end the discard policy,

:47:09.:47:11.

where you have to land anything you do not have a quota for,

:47:12.:47:14.

you have to bring it in, on, but you cannot then sell it.

:47:15.:47:17.

It goes into landfill, or whatever, you

:47:18.:47:19.

have to entrust the fishermen to, what, not catch too much?

:47:20.:47:21.

What John has been putting forward is an hours-based system.

:47:22.:47:24.

So, you go to sea for a certain amount of hours and what

:47:25.:47:27.

That seems to be infinitely sensible.

:47:28.:47:34.

we have been discarding these perfectly good fish because it just

:47:35.:47:39.

happens to be the wrong species at the wrong time of year.

:47:40.:47:42.

So, I am fully supportive of what they are saying.

:47:43.:47:44.

But we were rather hoodwinked into the Common Fisheries Policy.

:47:45.:47:47.

I see a lot of sense in what they are saying

:47:48.:47:49.

that we should take this outwith the Great Repeal Bill and have it

:47:50.:47:52.

has a separate thing which is negotiated now.

:47:53.:47:56.

Peter, what are the fishermen in Hastings saying?

:47:57.:48:00.

They are hoping that Brexit will deliver more quota for them.

:48:01.:48:05.

But I did not think they are convinced that it will,

:48:06.:48:08.

insomuch as the problem with the system

:48:09.:48:10.

is that too much of the national quota

:48:11.:48:12.

is going to the big producer organisations and the big

:48:13.:48:14.

factory ships, rather than the under-10m fleet.

:48:15.:48:16.

Over 90% of the fleet is under ten metres.

:48:17.:48:20.

But over 90% of the quota goes to the big factory ships.

:48:21.:48:23.

One of the other issues is that, I believe, we get to sell

:48:24.:48:26.

60% of our fish to the European Union.

:48:27.:48:28.

If we want to continue to have that access, they are going to

:48:29.:48:31.

ask us to play by the same rules as they are.

:48:32.:48:34.

Do we want the access of do we want to ditch the rules?

:48:35.:48:37.

Why not? Because they will not agree to that. We are actually net

:48:38.:48:59.

importers of fish. That is quite remarkable for a country surrounded

:49:00.:49:05.

by water. That is more to do with our tastes. Why can we not just have

:49:06.:49:16.

the free trade agreement. In virtually everything we are net

:49:17.:49:22.

importers from the European union. Why would they want to be upsetting

:49:23.:49:28.

what is a good market to them. But if the house to stick to the rules

:49:29.:49:32.

and we do not, that is not fear. But there are separate rules for the

:49:33.:49:38.

likes of hours with Norway and a slimmed, as a result of the Cod Wars

:49:39.:49:49.

in the 1970s. At the moment, this is not working for anybody. John

:49:50.:49:56.

missing George use this as too much to concentrate on, on fishing and

:49:57.:50:05.

agriculture. Is this just too difficult, because you have so many

:50:06.:50:08.

huge industries wanting to be at the top of the table. There is a

:50:09.:50:21.

knock-on effect. It is not just fishing. There are so many other

:50:22.:50:25.

aspects of, particularly tourism in Hastings. Thank you very much.

:50:26.:50:33.

It blights the countryside and it is on the rise.

:50:34.:50:35.

Dumped rubbish is an increasing problem across England.

:50:36.:50:37.

Last year, councils were given new powers to issue bigger

:50:38.:50:39.

But few have made use of this punishment.

:50:40.:50:42.

And what can be done to fight the fly-tippers?

:50:43.:50:45.

Sara Neville went out on patrol to find out more.

:50:46.:50:53.

Council investigators in Dartford on the trail of fly-tippers. Carlos

:50:54.:51:05.

like this have become routine. Fly-tipping has become much more

:51:06.:51:11.

commonplace and the methodology is becoming much more sophisticated. In

:51:12.:51:16.

this case, six tonnes of rubbish dumped in a field. It is an

:51:17.:51:26.

increasing claim. Because of the clean-up costs involved, this is

:51:27.:51:29.

almost on a scale of organised crime. These perpetrators were

:51:30.:51:36.

caught during surveillance operations. The majority happens on

:51:37.:51:45.

public land. It can cost councils ?15 million of taxpayers money to

:51:46.:51:49.

clean it up. The officers received over 1000 calls last year.

:51:50.:51:55.

Nationally, the number of recorded flight tips in England went up by

:51:56.:52:02.

6%. The cost of cleaning it up in by 11%. Last year, the government give

:52:03.:52:07.

councils more power to crack down on small-scale fly-tipping with on the

:52:08.:52:16.

spot fines of up to 40 purse -- ?400. But 70% of councils have feel

:52:17.:52:23.

penalty notices across the region. penalty notices across the region.

:52:24.:52:29.

Dark Dartford council has a poor active approach. But there is worry

:52:30.:52:35.

that the cost of disposing of rubbish encourages fly-tipping.

:52:36.:52:45.

There are concerns about the tape of waste and the amount of waste that

:52:46.:52:53.

environmental lobby, but that is environmental lobby, but that is

:52:54.:52:58.

actually a negative side to that. This is a kind of place where

:52:59.:53:03.

commercial rubbish should be brought. 58,000 tonnes was managed

:53:04.:53:09.

here last year. But there are just four facilities in Kent. You need a

:53:10.:53:17.

license to use them. And disposal costs around ?150 a tonne. Keep

:53:18.:53:25.

Britain tidy wants to have fly-tipping in the next three years

:53:26.:53:29.

and believes government needs more hill from local authorities to

:53:30.:53:34.

achieve that. I want them to use some of the income they get from

:53:35.:53:42.

landfill tax to help this. We want support for greater enforcement. We

:53:43.:53:46.

want to raise awareness with households about what their

:53:47.:53:49.

responsibilities and we want government to encourage retailers

:53:50.:53:54.

and producers to play their part in reducing the amount of bulky waste

:53:55.:54:02.

which could end up being used by fly-tippers. But with council

:54:03.:54:06.

struggling to fund essential services, who is going to win in the

:54:07.:54:14.

fight against fly-tippers? No Sussex councils have used these new signs

:54:15.:54:19.

yet? Why not? I think the problem is catching people.

:54:20.:54:31.

It seems to be so many mattresses left on the streets of Hastings. But

:54:32.:54:40.

you don't know -- I have to catch them in the act. You have to have

:54:41.:54:56.

the evidence. It could be a lot of DNA on a mattress. Do not go the! It

:54:57.:55:03.

is a problem. One of the things we are looking at is offering rewards,

:55:04.:55:08.

financial rewards. At the moment, people do not want to come forward.

:55:09.:55:12.

They could appear in court potentially. The problem here is

:55:13.:55:23.

councils need the resources to chase. It is easier and cheaper to

:55:24.:55:30.

clean it banshees the perpetrators. I did not see we do not have the

:55:31.:55:34.

resources, it is all about catching them. We would be prepared to do it,

:55:35.:55:41.

even to the extent of offering rewards. It cost us a lot of money.

:55:42.:55:47.

It cost about ?90,000 to clean up fly-tipping. If it is hard to catch

:55:48.:55:53.

them, it is a pretty empty policy? them, it is a pretty empty policy?

:55:54.:56:06.

There have been six prosecutions in Thanet for fly-tipping. We have two

:56:07.:56:12.

different types of it. We have thus mass fly-tipping that we saw in the

:56:13.:56:20.

video the, plus the more common than casual tape of fly-tipping, the

:56:21.:56:28.

likes of household goods being left outside.

:56:29.:56:39.

places' takeaway waste for ?200 and places' takeaway waste for ?200 and

:56:40.:56:49.

that is that sort of stuff which is ending up in a field. When we go

:56:50.:56:56.

back to the person find ?200. Both parties will be punished in these

:56:57.:57:01.

cases? 27 times in Kent that happened last year. There is talk of

:57:02.:57:08.

on the spot fines as a deterrent, but many people do not seem to even

:57:09.:57:16.

know about them? I do not think it is enough money. If it went to

:57:17.:57:21.

court, the court fine would be a lot more. Possibly thousands of pounds.

:57:22.:57:25.

I think the councils could maintain their own streets better. We are

:57:26.:57:35.

finding the fridges and mergers has been dumped on the road because the

:57:36.:57:40.

collections have reduced. What about making dumping easier. A lot of

:57:41.:57:46.

people have been falling into a radio show to see I got to the dump

:57:47.:57:52.

and they said the trailer was two inches long, you cannot dump the

:57:53.:57:57.

stuff here. We have to make things a bit more reasonable. Yes, we could

:57:58.:58:03.

be doing things better but way. That is talk about making bulky items

:58:04.:58:08.

free. It would not cost a lot more to do that. The analysis has been

:58:09.:58:19.

done. People take their own stuff to the type and having it cheaper

:58:20.:58:27.

having it collected. We would want that collected for free. I think the

:58:28.:58:32.

waste disposal sites run by the council have to be a bit more free

:58:33.:58:36.

and easy. Has to be slightly more accommodating.

:58:37.:58:39.

And now, it is time for some of the other news you may have

:58:40.:58:42.

Councillors from 19 local authorities are calling on

:58:43.:58:45.

the government to crack down on gangs exploiting inner-city

:58:46.:58:47.

children exploiting children to sell drugs in Kent and Sussex.

:58:48.:58:50.

They have written a letter to the Home Secretary,

:58:51.:58:52.

claiming the issue could be the next grooming scandal.

:58:53.:58:56.

Grooming children to become drug dealers to sell drugs from London.

:58:57.:58:59.

Members of the public could be excluded from part

:59:00.:59:07.

of a beach in Whitstable, if plans to restrict

:59:08.:59:10.

THe Whitstable Oyster Company Wants to establish an

:59:11.:59:12.

exclusion zone on the land, which they own, which would

:59:13.:59:15.

It cannot be right that people who have been using this beach,

:59:16.:59:19.

like the sea cadets, like the sea scouts,

:59:20.:59:21.

for more than 50 years should be brushed aside.

:59:22.:59:30.

The Ukip-run Thanet District Council are consulting on plans to build

:59:31.:59:33.

2,500 homes on the site of Manston Airport,

:59:34.:59:35.

The party had been elected on a policy of reopening the airport.

:59:36.:59:53.

It is game over on the airport? Absolutely not. It is a site of

:59:54.:00:03.

national significance and they will keep fighting for it.

:00:04.:00:06.

That is all we have got time for from the South East this week.

:00:07.:00:09.

My thanks to our guests for today, Peter Chowney and Craig Mackinlay.

:00:10.:00:10.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

:00:11.:00:12.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

:00:13.:00:22.

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

:00:23.:00:26.

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

:00:27.:00:38.

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

:00:39.:00:42.

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

:00:43.:00:49.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

:00:50.:00:57.

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

:00:58.:01:02.

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

:01:03.:01:06.

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

:01:07.:01:13.

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

:01:14.:01:18.

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

:01:19.:01:21.

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

:01:22.:01:26.

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

:01:27.:01:34.

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

:01:35.:01:41.

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

:01:42.:01:46.

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

:01:47.:01:49.

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

:01:50.:01:56.

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

:01:57.:02:00.

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

:02:01.:02:07.

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

:02:08.:02:10.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

:02:11.:02:15.

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

:02:16.:02:21.

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

:02:22.:02:27.

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

:02:28.:02:32.

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

:02:33.:02:40.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

:02:41.:02:45.

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

:02:46.:02:50.

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

:02:51.:02:54.

University there are further education colleges all over the

:02:55.:02:59.

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

:03:00.:03:07.

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

:03:08.:03:12.

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

:03:13.:03:17.

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

:03:18.:03:22.

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

:03:23.:03:27.

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

:03:28.:03:33.

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

:03:34.:03:37.

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

:03:38.:03:49.

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

:03:50.:03:51.

government department, and bringing together everything that government

:03:52.:03:53.

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

:03:54.:03:56.

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

:03:57.:04:02.

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

:04:03.:04:06.

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

:04:07.:04:11.

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

:04:12.:04:16.

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

:04:17.:04:21.

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

:04:22.:04:26.

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

:04:27.:04:33.

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

:04:34.:04:37.

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

:04:38.:04:43.

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

:04:44.:04:48.

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

:04:49.:04:51.

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

:04:52.:04:57.

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

:04:58.:05:03.

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

:05:04.:05:08.

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

:05:09.:05:13.

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

:05:14.:05:18.

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

:05:19.:05:21.

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

:05:22.:05:26.

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

:05:27.:05:32.

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

:05:33.:05:40.

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

:05:41.:05:47.

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

:05:48.:05:51.

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

:05:52.:05:57.

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

:05:58.:06:02.

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

:06:03.:06:08.

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

:06:09.:06:11.

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

:06:12.:06:16.

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

:06:17.:06:19.

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

:06:20.:06:27.

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

:06:28.:06:32.

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

:06:33.:06:37.

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

:06:38.:06:42.

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

:06:43.:06:48.

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

:06:49.:06:53.

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

:06:54.:07:00.

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

:07:01.:07:05.

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

:07:06.:07:13.

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

:07:14.:07:17.

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

:07:18.:07:24.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

:07:25.:07:31.

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

:07:32.:07:35.

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

:07:36.:07:41.

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

:07:42.:07:44.

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

:07:45.:07:48.

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

:07:49.:07:53.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

:07:54.:07:57.

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

:07:58.:08:06.

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

:08:07.:08:12.

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

:08:13.:08:16.

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

:08:17.:08:23.

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

:08:24.:08:28.

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

:08:29.:08:32.

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

:08:33.:08:36.

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

:08:37.:08:41.

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

:08:42.:08:46.

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

:08:47.:08:51.

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

:08:52.:08:56.

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

:08:57.:09:00.

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

:09:01.:09:05.

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

:09:06.:09:11.

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

:09:12.:09:16.

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

:09:17.:09:21.

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

:09:22.:09:26.

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

:09:27.:09:31.

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

:09:32.:09:36.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

:09:37.:09:48.

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

:09:49.:09:52.

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

:09:53.:09:55.

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

:09:56.:10:00.

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

:10:01.:10:11.

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

:10:12.:10:15.

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

:10:16.:10:20.

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

:10:21.:10:27.

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

:10:28.:10:32.

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

:10:33.:10:37.

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

:10:38.:10:40.

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

:10:41.:10:46.

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

:10:47.:10:54.

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

:10:55.:11:02.

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

:11:03.:11:09.

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

:11:10.:11:12.

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

:11:13.:11:18.

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

:11:19.:11:24.

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

:11:25.:11:29.

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

:11:30.:11:33.

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

:11:34.:11:37.

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

:11:38.:11:41.

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

:11:42.:11:47.

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

:11:48.:11:52.

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

:11:53.:11:59.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

:12:00.:12:03.

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

:12:04.:12:08.

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

:12:09.:12:15.

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

:12:16.:12:20.

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

:12:21.:12:26.

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

:12:27.:12:31.

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

:12:32.:12:35.

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

:12:36.:12:41.

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

:12:42.:12:44.

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

:12:45.:12:51.

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

:12:52.:12:56.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

:12:57.:13:01.

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

:13:02.:13:07.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

:13:08.:13:15.

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

:13:16.:13:18.

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

:13:19.:13:26.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

:13:27.:13:31.

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

:13:32.:13:33.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:34.:13:37.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:13:38.:14:16.

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

:14:17.:14:19.

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