29/01/2017 Sunday Politics South East


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29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Julia George are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

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mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:14.:01:15.

And in the South-East, we need more homes built

:01:16.:01:17.

And is it ever possible to provide the housing needed

:01:18.:01:21.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:22.:01:27.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

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what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:32.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

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has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

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and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

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And with me, the best and brightest political

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panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

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Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

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President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

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Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

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where refugees are banned from until further notice.

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Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

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on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

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Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

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But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

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as people affected and already in the air were detained

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US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

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At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

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about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

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Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

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The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

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on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

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of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

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Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

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This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

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Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

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The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

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She wants to see the evidence, she wants

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to understand precisely what the implications are.

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She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

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President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

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understand it, and then will respond to that.

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I think there are times where, you know, there's always

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pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

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The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

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We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

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Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

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vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

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just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

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appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

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wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

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our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

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is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

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Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

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she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

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about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

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Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

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spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

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not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

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criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

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so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

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wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

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moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

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things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

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hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

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like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

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about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

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should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

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have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

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Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

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understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

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the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

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engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

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temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

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population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

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biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

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temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

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wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

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and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

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been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

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I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

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this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

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I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

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this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

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desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

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this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

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because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

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is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

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you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

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the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

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with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

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that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

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country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

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the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

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within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

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but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

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should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

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great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

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Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

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protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

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believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

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achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

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number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

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inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

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of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

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where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

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right place. Thank you for joining us.

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Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

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Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

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particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

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to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

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every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

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May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

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to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

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When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

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can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

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more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

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Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

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to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

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going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

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does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

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relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:02.:10:04.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

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You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

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American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

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Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

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I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

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implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

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campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

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Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

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executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

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class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

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limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

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President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

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Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:02.:11:04.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

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Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

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been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

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included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

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such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

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thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

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is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

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in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

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for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

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with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

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May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

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reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

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nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:10.:12:13.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

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now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

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policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

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well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

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anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

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says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

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These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

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something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

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administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:50.:12:54.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:55.:12:58.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

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We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:04.:13:05.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:06.:13:10.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

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excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

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Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:19.:13:22.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:23.:13:26.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:27.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:34.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:35.:13:38.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:39.:13:44.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:45.:13:46.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

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foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

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was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

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keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

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in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:59.:14:00.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

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but might not have intended to be pictured walking

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through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

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Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

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will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

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told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

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said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:23.:14:26.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:27.:14:29.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:30.:14:35.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

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to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:37.:14:42.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:43.:14:46.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

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to Donald Trump her continued

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backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

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the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

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to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

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that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

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Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

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decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

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United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

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appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

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was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

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protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

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countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

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he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

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look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

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Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

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look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

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of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

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literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

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virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

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been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

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a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

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persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

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you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

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said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

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Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

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into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

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He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

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comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

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policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

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fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

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country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:20.:17:29.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:30.:17:33.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:34.:17:38.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

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would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

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that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

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Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:51.:17:56.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:57.:17:59.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:00.:18:04.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:05.:18:09.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:10.:18:13.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:14.:18:23.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

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is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

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have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:36.:18:38.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:39.:18:44.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:45.:18:47.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

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you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:55.:18:59.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:00.:19:03.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

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take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:07.:19:13.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:14.:19:16.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:17.:19:20.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:21.:19:23.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:24.:19:27.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:28.:19:33.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:34.:19:39.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:40.:19:44.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:45.:19:48.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:49.:19:53.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:54.:19:57.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:58.:20:04.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:05.:20:10.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:11.:20:16.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:17.:20:20.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:21.:20:24.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:25.:20:29.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:30.:20:33.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:34.:20:36.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:37.:20:40.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:41.:20:46.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:47.:20:51.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:52.:20:56.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:57.:21:00.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:01.:21:05.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:06.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:15.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:16.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:22.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:23.:21:26.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:27.:21:30.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:31.:21:36.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:37.:21:41.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:42.:21:45.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:46.:21:53.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:54.:21:56.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:57.:22:01.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

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speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:05.:22:09.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:10.:22:12.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:13.:22:19.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:20.:22:22.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:23.:22:27.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:28.:22:31.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:32.:22:36.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:37.:22:39.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:40.:22:46.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:47.:22:50.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:51.:22:54.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:55.:23:00.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:01.:23:04.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:05.:23:09.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:10.:23:14.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:15.:23:18.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:19.:23:22.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:23.:23:26.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:27.:23:31.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:32.:23:35.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:36.:23:39.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:40.:23:43.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:44.:23:48.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:49.:23:52.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:53.:23:58.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:59.:24:01.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:02.:24:07.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:08.:24:11.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:12.:24:15.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:16.:24:18.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:19.:24:24.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:25.:24:28.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:29.:24:33.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:34.:24:38.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:39.:24:42.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:43.:24:48.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:49.:24:57.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:58.:25:01.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:02.:25:05.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:06.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:17.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:18.:25:21.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:22.:25:23.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:24.:25:25.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:26.:25:27.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:28.:25:30.

be talking to our political panel. I'm Natalie Graham and this

:25:31.:25:39.

is the Sunday Politics Coming up later, we need the houses

:25:40.:25:42.

but where should they go? We are going to visit one corner

:25:43.:25:46.

of Kent where a whole Join me today is the Conservative MP

:25:47.:25:49.

for Folkestone and Hythe and chairman of the Commons Select

:25:50.:25:54.

Committee for Culture Media and

:25:55.:25:56.

Sport, Damian Collins. The squeeze on council budgets means

:25:57.:25:58.

less money is going from local authorities to fund theatres,

:25:59.:26:03.

galleries and museums. It has fallen by 20%

:26:04.:26:05.

across England since 2010. That is according to a recent

:26:06.:26:10.

report by the Select The report also said that more

:26:11.:26:12.

needed to be done to address the imbalance in the money

:26:13.:26:18.

the Arts Council gives out. London gets half of all

:26:19.:26:21.

Arts Council funding. The South-East gets the least

:26:22.:26:24.

per head of population. So, Damian, as a Kent MP,

:26:25.:26:30.

did the findings of the report I think it reflected

:26:31.:26:33.

trends we have seen. We know there is pressure on local

:26:34.:26:36.

authority budgets and some councils But the Arts Council money that

:26:37.:26:39.

comes from central government has been maintained and the government

:26:40.:26:44.

recognised in many ways it is a false economy to cut arts

:26:45.:26:47.

spending because it is not only important for culture,

:26:48.:26:50.

but we know in the South-East it is very important for economic

:26:51.:26:52.

regeneration, tourism, and supporting the broader

:26:53.:26:54.

creative industries as well. And yet it has dropped

:26:55.:26:59.

quite sharply here by 20% because of local authority

:27:00.:27:03.

funding and that is the biggest single source of funding

:27:04.:27:06.

for the cultural sector. So that is a worrying

:27:07.:27:08.

trend, isn't it? The local authority funding has come

:27:09.:27:13.

down, the Arts Council not. But if you look at successful arts

:27:14.:27:15.

projects here what you see is partnership and that was the lesson

:27:16.:27:19.

from the report. The arts is not delivered

:27:20.:27:21.

by local authorities, but local authorities

:27:22.:27:23.

play a role as partners. Partnering with organisations

:27:24.:27:27.

like the Creative Foundation That is private money coming in,

:27:28.:27:29.

it is relying on private money to come in alongside

:27:30.:27:34.

the Arts Council. The lesson from this is that

:27:35.:27:37.

successful arts organisations producing great work

:27:38.:27:40.

here in the South-East and across the country have those

:27:41.:27:41.

partnerships in place - private funding, some

:27:42.:27:44.

local authority money It sounds like you are not worried,

:27:45.:27:46.

then, about this trend The fact that it has fallen by 20%

:27:47.:27:50.

and we know budgets are going to be What we have to look

:27:51.:27:55.

at is that we know those financial pressures exist in local

:27:56.:28:00.

authorities, so what is The government is keeping

:28:01.:28:02.

its money in, but successful partnerships, working with local

:28:03.:28:11.

arts organisations and encouraging

:28:12.:28:13.

private investment too, We look at the success in Margate

:28:14.:28:14.

of Turner Contemporary, the Creative Foundation,

:28:15.:28:19.

the galleries, we see those We want to share best practice

:28:20.:28:21.

where that is happening. We saw across the country great

:28:22.:28:27.

examples of these cultural networks, often supported by local

:28:28.:28:30.

authorities, but at arms length. They engage with the community

:28:31.:28:32.

and work with others as well. It goes back to the point

:28:33.:28:38.

I raised at the beginning about this imbalance

:28:39.:28:41.

in funding from the Arts Council, why has the government

:28:42.:28:43.

allowed that to happen? The Arts Council funds

:28:44.:28:45.

lots of the major museums and galleries that

:28:46.:28:53.

happen to be in London. One of the things that we said

:28:54.:28:55.

in the report is that the condition of funding they should do more work

:28:56.:28:58.

in the regions through partnerships, that could be touring exhibitions

:28:59.:29:04.

that has been seen in Folkestone, for example, they take live

:29:05.:29:06.

streams of performances at the National Theatre in London,

:29:07.:29:12.

this any world cinema and Ashford. They do live streaming

:29:13.:29:15.

from the Royal Shakespeare We see more of those kinds

:29:16.:29:18.

of cultural collaborations with the money that may go

:29:19.:29:21.

international institutions We also said is that as funding

:29:22.:29:23.

for the arts increases through the Arts Council,

:29:24.:29:27.

thatt increase should go That is the change

:29:28.:29:29.

we would like to see. The Housing Minister says

:29:30.:29:33.

it is a unique opportunity to boost the local economy,

:29:34.:29:38.

jobs and provide new homes. Campaigners say it is

:29:39.:29:40.

an overwhelming tide Two very different views of plans

:29:41.:29:42.

to build a brand-new There is no doubt that new homes

:29:43.:29:45.

are needed in the South-East, Our reporter has been

:29:46.:29:51.

to a village to gauge the mood. This was a protest against plans

:29:52.:30:01.

for new development in Shepway, including the proposal for a garden

:30:02.:30:04.

time made up of Hundreds of people took

:30:05.:30:07.

to the streets of Hythe in the summer, before definite plans

:30:08.:30:13.

were drawn up. That strength of feeling remains

:30:14.:30:15.

amongst these campaigners who lives They live near the

:30:16.:30:20.

proposed new town. They fear such a large number

:30:21.:30:27.

of new homes will destroy the countryside, historic sites,

:30:28.:30:30.

and ultimately their way of life. They are joining forces

:30:31.:30:32.

to fight the plans. I get mad when people

:30:33.:30:34.

accuse me of nimbyism. I feel passionately about the fact

:30:35.:30:39.

that there are people in this country who need housing,

:30:40.:30:43.

I have members of my own family who cannot get

:30:44.:30:45.

on the housing ladder. It is precisely because this

:30:46.:30:47.

development will not address the issue that I'm so passionately

:30:48.:30:49.

opposed to it. The notion that there is support

:30:50.:30:51.

for those proposals is unproven. Within the village,

:30:52.:30:54.

there is opposition to it. The opposition is not

:30:55.:30:56.

because it is providing housing, no one is saying that we do not need

:30:57.:31:05.

houses, its is the sheer scale and juggernaut

:31:06.:31:08.

that is being thrown at this. We are in danger of losing

:31:09.:31:13.

places that are special. The proposed new town covers a large

:31:14.:31:21.

area south of the M20, including the former

:31:22.:31:24.

Folkestone racecourse. You can see up to 12,000 new homes

:31:25.:31:28.

along with community facilities as well as commercial space,

:31:29.:31:33.

new schools and GP surgeries. There is a huge shortage

:31:34.:31:35.

of homes in the south-east. Experts estimate that we need

:31:36.:31:38.

to build around 53,000 new homes every year until 2020

:31:39.:31:40.

to meet the demand. The government looks set

:31:41.:31:42.

to make housing a major But will the drive to build more

:31:43.:31:45.

homes prompted a backlash from core Conservative voters

:31:46.:31:58.

in the constituencies The scheme has received government

:31:59.:32:03.

backing and the leader of Shepway District Council believes

:32:04.:32:06.

that large developments like this, that allowed the council to plan

:32:07.:32:08.

properly for services, Do you not take on any

:32:09.:32:11.

of the concerns of people Of course I take on their concerns,

:32:12.:32:14.

but I'll still have the concerns of all those who need the jobs

:32:15.:32:19.

and homes in the future. Everybody has to recognise

:32:20.:32:25.

there is a problem on housing so everybody across the whole

:32:26.:32:27.

country has to take their We will be doing as the government

:32:28.:32:30.

requires us to do, under their rules There will be multi-tenure

:32:31.:32:37.

in what we are building, there will be homes for rent,

:32:38.:32:43.

there will be self build, there will be shared equity,

:32:44.:32:46.

there will be lots of opportunities But the County Council has

:32:47.:32:48.

a very different view. There is still a lot

:32:49.:33:05.

of detail to come. But forgive residents

:33:06.:33:10.

for being very sceptical of these sorts of promises because you see

:33:11.:33:12.

time and time again with these developments, we are a crowded

:33:13.:33:15.

part of the country, we have a lot of infrastructure

:33:16.:33:19.

already, we are water stressed as it is, our roads are gridlocked

:33:20.:33:22.

a lot of the time, our health and social services are at breaking

:33:23.:33:25.

point, you have to ask The communities not

:33:26.:33:30.

being listened to. This is development by diktat

:33:31.:33:36.

rather than consensus. So far nothing has

:33:37.:33:38.

been set in stone. The council is drawing up a master

:33:39.:33:43.

plan and has started Will any amount of discussion

:33:44.:33:46.

with the communities affected reduce their opposition to such

:33:47.:33:50.

large-scale development or world their concerns be outweighed

:33:51.:33:59.

by the need for more Joining us now is the director

:34:00.:34:02.

of the Kent branch for the campaign for the protection of rural

:34:03.:34:07.

England here in Newport. I know you share many of

:34:08.:34:12.

the concerns raised in that report. Assuming that we do need

:34:13.:34:14.

to build 53,000 homes a year for the next five years,

:34:15.:34:17.

how do we go about it? CPRE is all about positive planning

:34:18.:34:20.

and really good place making. But Shepway has already got

:34:21.:34:25.

a thousand homes lined up plan and we feel that this

:34:26.:34:27.

is creating a pool that is good to drive yet more

:34:28.:34:33.

household growth in an area I can understand why the locals

:34:34.:34:35.

feel so disenfranchised Damian, you represent

:34:36.:34:38.

many of those locals. As we heard in that report,

:34:39.:34:41.

it is the scale of the development that is upsetting people and people

:34:42.:34:49.

who in many cases voted for you as a Conservative

:34:50.:34:53.

and the local Conservative council. 30% of the land was marked out

:34:54.:34:55.

in your film will be green space. That will mean that there are green

:34:56.:34:59.

spaces between the existing villages This scheme will be

:35:00.:35:02.

delivered over 30 years, But nearly all of that

:35:03.:35:06.

land is green space now. But it is also right next

:35:07.:35:11.

to a railway station and a motorway junction,

:35:12.:35:14.

so the heavy infrastructure you would need to support this

:35:15.:35:16.

development is already in place. What we want to do is consult

:35:17.:35:19.

with the community about how We need the jobs, we need

:35:20.:35:22.

the infrastructure, we need the houses, and we have a

:35:23.:35:29.

site that is right next to a motorway junction,

:35:30.:35:32.

right next to a railway station that can deliver huge economic investment

:35:33.:35:35.

that will benefit all residents But it is not just Shepway,

:35:36.:35:37.

other parts of the south-east are facing similar dilemmas

:35:38.:35:41.

and it is antagonising Has there been a calculation

:35:42.:35:43.

here by the government that because this is a safe Conservative

:35:44.:35:47.

area, you can afford This proposal has been brought

:35:48.:35:49.

forward by the council, they have gone to the government

:35:50.:35:53.

saying that we believe that this site next to junction 11

:35:54.:35:57.

of M20 would be suitable It has come from the council

:35:58.:36:00.

they are now consulting There is a large area

:36:01.:36:07.

of land for jobs. If a big employer wanted to come

:36:08.:36:12.

to the Shepway area and bring high-quality jobs we don't have any

:36:13.:36:15.

big sites for them. It is about the jobs

:36:16.:36:17.

as well as the houses. We are hearing about

:36:18.:36:22.

the infrastructure and the jobs That is one of the

:36:23.:36:24.

concerns you raise. The point is that Shepway Council

:36:25.:36:27.

has been democratically elected and they have a duty to provide

:36:28.:36:30.

these houses, don't they? They have a duty to provide

:36:31.:36:32.

for the objectively We know that the site was put

:36:33.:36:36.

forward by Shepway Council in their last local plan,

:36:37.:36:40.

two or three years ago. It was soundly rejected

:36:41.:36:43.

by an independent inspector is being I just feel that this

:36:44.:36:45.

is a step too far in an area So where should the 53,000

:36:46.:36:54.

homes that we need to build on the south-east

:36:55.:37:00.

in the next year go? We should be focussing on those

:37:01.:37:07.

places that have already got the planning permissions,

:37:08.:37:10.

where we can actually direct the homes that we need

:37:11.:37:12.

to where they will regenerate towns, to where they will regenerate

:37:13.:37:15.

villages and small market towns. We should not be building on huge

:37:16.:37:17.

expanses of what is increasingly I have heard from government

:37:18.:37:20.

about doing this. Wouldn't it be better

:37:21.:37:23.

if the government pulled its finger out and made sure we could build

:37:24.:37:25.

on land authority had planning permission,

:37:26.:37:28.

that developers are sitting on, and then we would not have

:37:29.:37:30.

problems like this. There are sites in Shepway

:37:31.:37:34.

where that land is being used, but the order of magnitude

:37:35.:37:36.

and the number of homes that we need is huge,

:37:37.:37:39.

such right writing really get these bigger schemes that we plan over 30

:37:40.:37:41.

years, that annex and the big heavy A lot of young people

:37:42.:37:45.

in the district who heard about these plans say,

:37:46.:37:48.

I want a job and I want somewhere to live and I want somewhere

:37:49.:37:51.

I can afford to live. For young people and people on lower

:37:52.:37:54.

incomes, the biggest cost they pay they pay is housing costs

:37:55.:37:58.

and that is because those We need more volume,

:37:59.:38:01.

more units to be created, and jobs will be created

:38:02.:38:10.

for young people who will We're still waiting

:38:11.:38:12.

for the government to publish its White Paper,

:38:13.:38:15.

was meant to come out at the end of this month that we're

:38:16.:38:17.

still waiting for it. Some of the language used

:38:18.:38:20.

by ministers talking about turbo-charging house-building,

:38:21.:38:21.

accelerating development, Why do you think they are using that

:38:22.:38:23.

sort of tone of language? I want to see a revolution

:38:24.:38:27.

in house-building in this country to make homeownership realistic

:38:28.:38:29.

and affordable for most And if that means upsetting people,

:38:30.:38:31.

building on green fields that already exist in your constituency,

:38:32.:38:35.

you're happy with that? You have to look at key

:38:36.:38:37.

sites that would work. There are concerns being raised

:38:38.:38:40.

by local residents who live There are also people

:38:41.:38:42.

in our film that oppose every We really hope we can see changes

:38:43.:38:46.

in the planning system in The White Paper that mean

:38:47.:38:50.

that we are doing what planning should do, protecting the green

:38:51.:38:53.

spaces and delivering. Now it is time for some of the other

:38:54.:38:55.

news you may have missed this week The leader of Kent County Council

:38:56.:38:59.

has written to the Home Office to ask for more money to help cover

:39:00.:39:06.

the costs of unaccompanied child Paul Carter says by the end of this

:39:07.:39:10.

year the council will be looking after over a thousand asylum seekers

:39:11.:39:17.

are now adults. A leading environmental lawyer

:39:18.:39:19.

is challenging a council for selling of 3000 acres of its downland estate

:39:20.:39:26.

after residents The land might be bought

:39:27.:39:28.

by an investment fund The council says the farms

:39:29.:39:34.

will remain farms and the footpath and downland will continue to be

:39:35.:39:42.

open to the public. And four councils in Kent have

:39:43.:39:44.

confirmed that they are going to consider the business case

:39:45.:39:47.

for a merger before a final decision can be taken the public will need

:39:48.:39:50.

to be involved and approval will be required from the

:39:51.:39:53.

Secretary of State. If plans are approved,

:39:54.:39:54.

it would see the district councils of Canterbury,

:39:55.:40:02.

Dover, Shepway and Thanet, Quick question, does it

:40:03.:40:07.

concern you that councils are selling off their land

:40:08.:40:10.

because of budget cuts? OK, I know it concerns the CPRE,

:40:11.:40:12.

but that is all we have time My thanks to both my

:40:13.:40:19.

guests, Damian Collins Julia will be back here next week

:40:20.:40:26.

with all the political news and chat air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:27.:40:30.

here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:31.:40:39.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:40.:40:44.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:45.:40:49.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:50.:40:52.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:53.:41:05.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:06.:41:11.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:12.:41:14.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:15.:41:19.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:20.:41:23.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:24.:41:28.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:29.:41:35.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:36.:41:38.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:39.:41:42.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:43.:41:47.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:48.:41:51.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:52.:41:55.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:56.:42:02.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:03.:42:05.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:06.:42:09.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:10.:42:14.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:15.:42:19.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:20.:42:28.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:29.:42:31.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:32.:42:38.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:39.:42:41.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:42.:42:45.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:46.:42:50.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:51.:42:54.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:55.:42:58.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:59.:43:03.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:04.:43:09.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:10.:43:13.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:14.:43:17.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:18.:43:20.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:21.:43:24.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:25.:43:30.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:31.:43:35.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:36.:43:42.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:43.:43:46.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:47.:43:51.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:52.:43:54.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:55.:43:57.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:58.:44:03.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:04.:44:08.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:09.:44:15.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:16.:44:18.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:19.:44:21.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:22.:44:27.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:28.:44:36.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:37.:44:40.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:41.:44:44.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:45.:44:49.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:50.:44:53.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:54.:44:57.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:58.:45:02.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:03.:45:06.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:07.:45:12.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:13.:45:16.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:17.:45:20.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:21.:45:25.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:26.:45:29.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:30.:45:35.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:36.:45:39.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:40.:45:43.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:44.:45:48.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:49.:45:53.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:54.:45:56.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:57.:46:01.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:02.:46:06.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:07.:46:10.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:11.:46:14.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:15.:46:19.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:20.:46:24.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:25.:46:29.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:30.:46:32.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:33.:46:35.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:36.:46:40.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:41.:46:46.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:47.:46:52.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:53.:46:58.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:59.:47:04.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:05.:47:07.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:08.:47:11.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:12.:47:17.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:18.:47:21.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:22.:47:25.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:26.:47:29.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:30.:47:33.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:34.:47:37.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:38.:47:43.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:44.:47:49.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:50.:47:55.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:56.:47:59.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:48:00.:48:04.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:05.:48:12.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:13.:48:19.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:20.:48:25.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:26.:48:26.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:27.:48:29.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:30.:48:32.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:33.:48:35.

it's the Sunday Politics. a free five-a-side tournament

:48:36.:49:09.

that's for everyone. For more information,

:49:10.:49:23.

go to the Get Inspired website.

:49:24.:49:27.

Andrew Neil and Julia George are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.