22/01/2017 Sunday Politics South East

It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott what Labour will do next.

And in the South East, dumping rubbish is on the rise.

So, do we need sharper teeth to help fight the fly-tippers?

And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

and their willingness to come to the studio

It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

That's what the House of Commons voted for.

He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

I'm not going to get an answer to this.

Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

from the campaign trail to the White House.

Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

The President, who'd criticised the work of

the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

emphasis is going to change American life, including American

International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

It should give British companies the maximum

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

As the European Parliament voted for its new

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

of free zone or tax haven, I

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

There will, at the end of this deal process,

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

if this process started with democracy last June,

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

watching it in a small room somewhere?

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

anticipating since the referendum result,

particularly around the

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

including being a member of the single market, without

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics

Coming up later, dumping rubbish is a growing problem.

So, why are so few councils making the most of their new powers

Joining me in the studio today are Craig Mackinlay,

Conservative MP for South Thanet, and by Peter Chowney,

the Labour Leader of Hastings Borough Council.

It is budget time for our councils and, this week, West

and East Sussex and Surrey all published their financial

Surrey has proposed a 15% increase to council tax and that means

they will need to ask you if you agree, in a referendum.

Craig, I will start with you, as this is a Conservative council

I think we have to accept that we are having to deal

It is great that we have all living longer, but that brings

challenges for the NHS, challenges to adult social

care and, of course, also, to the pension system.

Now, of course, it is very difficult to know if the electors

There was was a piece on South East last night,

in which some people were saying, they thought

they felt it was all right, because it was an affluent area, etc,

but I'm sure it will be similarly opposed by some others.

What I think we need is we cannot just keep saying, "Oh, it is

central government", as if there is some magic money pit.

But you are happy for the electorate to make

It is maybe even wrong for me to assess whether there is

demographic problem different to Kent, but I would assume,

This is not a one-off council tax rise in Surrey, though.

They have routinely raised the council tax.

I was speaking to the Taxpayers' Alliance about this.

They say they have raised it 82% in real terms over recent years.

This is also a council where, not two years ago,

they voted themselves bumper increases in their allowances.

It is about ?200 for a Band D property in Surrey.

It is the weekly shop for many families.

It is up to the local people to decide,

are they going to go along with this or not?

How are we going to pay for the demands of an ageing population?

There was a report commissioned a few years ago about how we might

It was hoped that private insurance may cover that,

but we have not got there yet. It is a serious debate.

OK, it is a good way to also duck the question,

Is it time to bring elderly social care into being funded centrally,

so it is not is not at the mercy of richer or poorer

Yes, I think it is. I think Surrey will have difficulty

making a referendum for that amount to stick, to win that.

But I respect their right to do it and I can understand why they are

But I do think social care needs to be funded centrally.

But the money has to come from somewhere, in the end.

It is all very well just talking about

insurance schemes and "we need to think it through", but in the end,

it is an increasingly ageing population.

There are more old people and the money has got

It is an interesting one politically.

This is a Conservative council pretty much

sticking it to a conservative government.

I wonder if they are actually showing themselves to be a more

effective opposition than the Parliamentary Labour Party?

It is a local authority, same as we all are.

Many of us in local authorities are complaining about

the shortage of funding, the cuts, the massive cuts in local

I recognise it is particularly difficult for county councils.

And where they have huge bills with adult social care,

it is a big consumer of money and that is a big problem for them.

We will find out in May whether they get the

referendum through and also whether the council

is voted back in, as well. A bit of a wait for that.

I would say that referendums do tend to go funny ways.

You described it as funny. That's an interesting one.

Now, it was the biggest speech on Brexit since the referendum.

And although there was plenty discussion about the Prime

Minister's plan for Britain to leave the single market, there

was little detail for the one of the South East's most vocal

Many fishermen had supported Leave and, this week,

a group of them went to Downing Street to meet Ministers.

They campaigned to leave the European Union and sailed down

They say the Common Fisheries Policy, which restricts the quota,

size and type of fish they can catch, was broken.

The fishermen want Britain to reclaim its

waters and limit foreign boats fishing off UK shores.

Our industry has been decimated by EU regulations.

I have not got enough quota to earn a living at the moment.

I could earn a living less than two miles from the harbour and I am

having to travel 17-18 miles, to avoid species of fish that

Seven months after the vote to leave the

European Union there is still uncertainty

as to what Brexit will mean for the fishing industry.

If the UK opts for the Great Repeal Bill,

to absorb EU rules into British law,

the fisheries policy would still exist for the time being,

while Brexit negotiations take place.

But the campaign group, Fishing For Leave, are calling for:

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

The government remains committed to being a champion of sustainable

fisheries and ending discards, as set out in our manifesto.

We're also committed to the continued cooperation with

other countries for the management of shared stocks.

Fishing For Leave will publish its full list of demands in

So much remains unclear about what will be happen

once Brexit is in place, how many of them do

We can go to Ramsgate Port now and talk to the head of

the Thanet Fishermen's Association, John Nichols.

He is one of those representatives of the fishing industry who went to

John, you met with the ministers concerned.

Well, it was a golden opportunity to go and sit before

them and present this - the way forward for fishing in the UK.

The foundation stone of what we are looking to achieve.

What are you hoping to achieve? Boil it down for us.

We do not have time at the moment to read

the book, so tell us what you are looking for?

I think the first thing is we must remove ourselves 100%

which has been a failed policy since the day

We need to get away from that and then work out where we are going

with this document and find the proper way forward.

One of the most important things is to stop discarding.

When the country voted to leave the EU,

did you assume Brexit would set fishermen free?

I suppose it is a hope that it would set fishermen free.

But you also have to realise that, in the past,

Edward Heath traded us off for better things in Europe

We do not want to be traded off again.

So, yes, I totally believe we can achieve a

proper Brexit for the fisheries and hand our

When you talked to the ministers, what did they say to you?

Are you encouraged that they were listening to you?

I think we are encouraged at the moment, when you are there.

But when you are removed from it and then think

about it afterwards, there are big holes in what you have listened to.

As far as David Jones is concerned, I am reasonably confident that

he will read this document, take it on board and see the advantages of

With George Eustace, I am just worried that he

He's looking after both the agricultural

I think that is too much for one person to do.

I think, when you look at our sea mass, our square area of the sea

is three times greater than that of the land.

He is trying to look after the sea and trying to

I did not think he is capable of doing both.

John, thank you very much for joining us.

John Nichols is worried that they are going to be,

in his words, traded off again. There is a chance they will be.

Do you worry that the Leave campaign promised the fishermen too much?

I meet with the fishermen in Ramsgate

regularly and know what the demands are.

I have actually got that document and I am working my

I am actually working on my own Fishing After Brexit

How many of these things do we need?!

I think it will be very much a similar flavour to their one.

Let us be clear about how we got into this dreadful

The Common Fisheries Policy has not worked for Britain.

It has not worked for the under-12m fleet and it is time

You were making noises when they were talking

John and his crowd have put together a new policy forward, whereby

This is very workable, particularly for the inshore fleet,

It is sustainable, it is environmentally friendly and it is

not the huge volume of these factory ships.

Is there not a risk that, if we end the discard policy,

where you have to land anything you do not have a quota for,

you have to bring it in, on, but you cannot then sell it.

It goes into landfill, or whatever, you

have to entrust the fishermen to, what, not catch too much?

What John has been putting forward is an hours-based system.

So, you go to sea for a certain amount of hours and what

That seems to be infinitely sensible.

we have been discarding these perfectly good fish because it just

happens to be the wrong species at the wrong time of year.

So, I am fully supportive of what they are saying.

But we were rather hoodwinked into the Common Fisheries Policy.

I see a lot of sense in what they are saying

that we should take this outwith the Great Repeal Bill and have it

has a separate thing which is negotiated now.

Peter, what are the fishermen in Hastings saying?

They are hoping that Brexit will deliver more quota for them.

But I did not think they are convinced that it will,

insomuch as the problem with the system

is that too much of the national quota

is going to the big producer organisations and the big

factory ships, rather than the under-10m fleet.

Over 90% of the fleet is under ten metres.

But over 90% of the quota goes to the big factory ships.

One of the other issues is that, I believe, we get to sell

60% of our fish to the European Union.

If we want to continue to have that access, they are going to

ask us to play by the same rules as they are.

Do we want the access of do we want to ditch the rules?

Why not? Because they will not agree to that. We are actually net

importers of fish. That is quite remarkable for a country surrounded

by water. That is more to do with our tastes. Why can we not just have

the free trade agreement. In virtually everything we are net

importers from the European union. Why would they want to be upsetting

what is a good market to them. But if the house to stick to the rules

and we do not, that is not fear. But there are separate rules for the

likes of hours with Norway and a slimmed, as a result of the Cod Wars

in the 1970s. At the moment, this is not working for anybody. John

missing George use this as too much to concentrate on, on fishing and

agriculture. Is this just too difficult, because you have so many

huge industries wanting to be at the top of the table. There is a

knock-on effect. It is not just fishing. There are so many other

aspects of, particularly tourism in Hastings. Thank you very much.

It blights the countryside and it is on the rise.

Dumped rubbish is an increasing problem across England.

Last year, councils were given new powers to issue bigger

But few have made use of this punishment.

And what can be done to fight the fly-tippers?

Sara Neville went out on patrol to find out more.

Council investigators in Dartford on the trail of fly-tippers. Carlos

like this have become routine. Fly-tipping has become much more

commonplace and the methodology is becoming much more sophisticated. In

this case, six tonnes of rubbish dumped in a field. It is an

increasing claim. Because of the clean-up costs involved, this is

almost on a scale of organised crime. These perpetrators were

caught during surveillance operations. The majority happens on

public land. It can cost councils ?15 million of taxpayers money to

clean it up. The officers received over 1000 calls last year.

Nationally, the number of recorded flight tips in England went up by

6%. The cost of cleaning it up in by 11%. Last year, the government give

councils more power to crack down on small-scale fly-tipping with on the

spot fines of up to 40 purse -- ?400. But 70% of councils have feel

penalty notices across the region. penalty notices across the region.

Dark Dartford council has a poor active approach. But there is worry

that the cost of disposing of rubbish encourages fly-tipping.

There are concerns about the tape of waste and the amount of waste that

environmental lobby, but that is environmental lobby, but that is

actually a negative side to that. This is a kind of place where

commercial rubbish should be brought. 58,000 tonnes was managed

here last year. But there are just four facilities in Kent. You need a

license to use them. And disposal costs around ?150 a tonne. Keep

Britain tidy wants to have fly-tipping in the next three years

and believes government needs more hill from local authorities to

achieve that. I want them to use some of the income they get from

landfill tax to help this. We want support for greater enforcement. We

want to raise awareness with households about what their

responsibilities and we want government to encourage retailers

and producers to play their part in reducing the amount of bulky waste

which could end up being used by fly-tippers. But with council

struggling to fund essential services, who is going to win in the

fight against fly-tippers? No Sussex councils have used these new signs

yet? Why not? I think the problem is catching people.

It seems to be so many mattresses left on the streets of Hastings. But

you don't know -- I have to catch them in the act. You have to have

the evidence. It could be a lot of DNA on a mattress. Do not go the! It

is a problem. One of the things we are looking at is offering rewards,

financial rewards. At the moment, people do not want to come forward.

They could appear in court potentially. The problem here is

councils need the resources to chase. It is easier and cheaper to

clean it banshees the perpetrators. I did not see we do not have the

resources, it is all about catching them. We would be prepared to do it,

even to the extent of offering rewards. It cost us a lot of money.

It cost about ?90,000 to clean up fly-tipping. If it is hard to catch

them, it is a pretty empty policy? them, it is a pretty empty policy?

There have been six prosecutions in Thanet for fly-tipping. We have two

different types of it. We have thus mass fly-tipping that we saw in the

video the, plus the more common than casual tape of fly-tipping, the

likes of household goods being left outside.

places' takeaway waste for ?200 and places' takeaway waste for ?200 and

that is that sort of stuff which is ending up in a field. When we go

back to the person find ?200. Both parties will be punished in these

cases? 27 times in Kent that happened last year. There is talk of

on the spot fines as a deterrent, but many people do not seem to even

know about them? I do not think it is enough money. If it went to

court, the court fine would be a lot more. Possibly thousands of pounds.

I think the councils could maintain their own streets better. We are

finding the fridges and mergers has been dumped on the road because the

collections have reduced. What about making dumping easier. A lot of

people have been falling into a radio show to see I got to the dump

and they said the trailer was two inches long, you cannot dump the

stuff here. We have to make things a bit more reasonable. Yes, we could

be doing things better but way. That is talk about making bulky items

free. It would not cost a lot more to do that. The analysis has been

done. People take their own stuff to the type and having it cheaper

having it collected. We would want that collected for free. I think the

waste disposal sites run by the council have to be a bit more free

and easy. Has to be slightly more accommodating.

And now, it is time for some of the other news you may have

Councillors from 19 local authorities are calling on

the government to crack down on gangs exploiting inner-city

children exploiting children to sell drugs in Kent and Sussex.

They have written a letter to the Home Secretary,

claiming the issue could be the next grooming scandal.

Grooming children to become drug dealers to sell drugs from London.

Members of the public could be excluded from part

of a beach in Whitstable, if plans to restrict

THe Whitstable Oyster Company Wants to establish an

exclusion zone on the land, which they own, which would

It cannot be right that people who have been using this beach,

like the sea cadets, like the sea scouts,

for more than 50 years should be brushed aside.

The Ukip-run Thanet District Council are consulting on plans to build

2,500 homes on the site of Manston Airport,

The party had been elected on a policy of reopening the airport.

It is game over on the airport? Absolutely not. It is a site of

national significance and they will keep fighting for it.

That is all we have got time for from the South East this week.

My thanks to our guests for today, Peter Chowney and Craig Mackinlay.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

University there are further education colleges all over the

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

government department, and bringing together everything that government

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.