22/01/2017 Sunday Politics South East


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22/01/2017

Andrew Neil, Julia George and shadow home secretary Diane Abbott provide reaction to Theresa May's Brexit speech and look at the inauguration of US president Donald Trump.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

:00:40.:00:43.

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

:00:44.:00:45.

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

:00:46.:00:49.

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

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we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

:00:57.:00:59.

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

:01:00.:01:05.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

:01:06.:01:08.

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

:01:09.:01:11.

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott what Labour will do next.

:01:12.:01:16.

And in the South East, dumping rubbish is on the rise.

:01:17.:01:19.

So, do we need sharper teeth to help fight the fly-tippers?

:01:20.:01:35.

And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

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journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

:01:39.:01:41.

relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

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and their willingness to come to the studio

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

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tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

:02:01.:02:04.

So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

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She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

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but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

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It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

:02:20.:02:23.

from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

:02:24.:02:29.

The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

:02:30.:02:38.

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

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The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

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It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

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whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

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That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

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That's what the House of Commons voted for.

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He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

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There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

:03:06.:03:12.

What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

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I'm not going to get an answer to this.

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Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

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front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

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wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

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the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

:03:46.:03:48.

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

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Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

:03:57.:04:03.

read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

:04:04.:04:08.

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

:04:09.:04:12.

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

:04:13.:04:18.

replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

:04:19.:04:21.

have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

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If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

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matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

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that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

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End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

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good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

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is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

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and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

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and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

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point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

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suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

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because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

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But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

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awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

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missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

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comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

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struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

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we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

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missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

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What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

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they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

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work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

:06:12.:06:19.

known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

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on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

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would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

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from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

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mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

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as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

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going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

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Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

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Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

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anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

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So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

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to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

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President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

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Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

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instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

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attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

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class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

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from the campaign trail to the White House.

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Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

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First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

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Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

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I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

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The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

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the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

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From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

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In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

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Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

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The President, who'd criticised the work of

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the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

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There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

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And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

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the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

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So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

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inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

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in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

:09:24.:09:26.

He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

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American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

:09:43.:09:46.

parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

:09:47.:09:51.

act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

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warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

:09:57.:10:01.

Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

:10:02.:10:06.

restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

:10:07.:10:11.

said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

:10:12.:10:15.

threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

:10:16.:10:21.

bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

:10:22.:10:26.

order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

:10:27.:10:31.

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

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first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

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is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

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he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

:10:43.:10:46.

choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

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just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

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he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

:10:51.:11:01.

made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

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office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

:11:09.:11:11.

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

:11:12.:11:17.

a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

:11:18.:11:23.

Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

:11:24.:11:27.

the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

:11:28.:11:32.

Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

:11:33.:11:36.

act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

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oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

:11:44.:11:53.

or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

:11:54.:11:59.

in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

:12:00.:12:05.

unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

:12:06.:12:09.

called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

:12:10.:12:17.

creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

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institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

:12:26.:12:30.

at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

:12:31.:12:34.

prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

:12:35.:12:39.

something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

:12:40.:12:43.

consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

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president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

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so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

:12:54.:12:58.

institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

:12:59.:13:06.

argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

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involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

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with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

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stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

:13:25.:13:30.

world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

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have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

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power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

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foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

:13:45.:13:50.

around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

:13:51.:13:54.

may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

:13:55.:14:00.

and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

:14:01.:14:04.

Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

:14:05.:14:08.

more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

:14:09.:14:13.

tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

:14:14.:14:18.

still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

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Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

:14:23.:14:32.

clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

:14:33.:14:40.

in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

:14:41.:14:44.

relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

:14:45.:14:49.

president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

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critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

:14:56.:15:00.

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

:15:01.:15:05.

anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

:15:06.:15:12.

I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

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will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

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State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

:15:23.:15:28.

him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

:15:29.:15:32.

successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

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already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

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you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

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institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

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millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

:15:54.:15:55.

is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

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an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

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tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

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The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

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said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

:16:24.:16:27.

front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

:16:28.:16:31.

solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

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emphasis is going to change American life, including American

:16:36.:16:38.

International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

:16:39.:16:47.

mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

:16:48.:16:52.

national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

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inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

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White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

:17:02.:17:04.

difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

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protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

:17:11.:17:17.

no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

:17:18.:17:23.

the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

:17:24.:17:26.

think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

:17:27.:17:33.

you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

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senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

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administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

:17:49.:17:53.

how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

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a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

:17:57.:18:02.

bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

:18:03.:18:07.

also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

:18:08.:18:13.

election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

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and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

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mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

:18:29.:18:32.

trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

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world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

:18:38.:18:40.

leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

:18:41.:18:45.

businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

:18:46.:18:50.

debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

:18:51.:18:54.

the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

:18:55.:18:58.

reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

:18:59.:19:05.

lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

:19:06.:19:09.

walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

:19:10.:19:13.

from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

:19:14.:19:17.

that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

:19:18.:19:22.

between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

:19:23.:19:26.

important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

:19:27.:19:30.

lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

:19:31.:19:34.

you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

:19:35.:19:39.

the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

:19:40.:19:56.

Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

:19:57.:20:01.

Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

:20:02.:20:07.

hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

:20:08.:20:15.

him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

:20:16.:20:18.

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

:20:19.:20:22.

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

:20:23.:20:28.

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

:20:29.:20:34.

of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

:20:35.:20:37.

Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

:20:38.:20:41.

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

:20:42.:20:47.

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

:20:48.:20:54.

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

:20:55.:20:59.

herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

:21:00.:21:04.

Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

:21:05.:21:08.

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

:21:09.:21:13.

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

:21:14.:21:18.

another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

:21:19.:21:24.

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

:21:25.:21:27.

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

:21:28.:21:33.

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

:21:34.:21:37.

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

:21:38.:21:41.

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

:21:42.:21:44.

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

:21:45.:21:51.

deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

:21:52.:21:56.

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

:21:57.:21:59.

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

:22:00.:22:04.

into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

:22:05.:22:08.

ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

:22:09.:22:16.

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

:22:17.:22:18.

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

:22:19.:22:25.

are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

:22:26.:22:29.

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

:22:30.:22:35.

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

:22:36.:22:39.

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

:22:40.:22:47.

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

:22:48.:22:50.

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

:22:51.:22:55.

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

:22:56.:22:58.

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

:22:59.:23:04.

word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

:23:05.:23:08.

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

:23:09.:23:13.

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

:23:14.:23:18.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

:23:19.:23:22.

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

:23:23.:23:31.

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

:23:32.:23:35.

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

:23:36.:23:39.

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

:23:40.:23:45.

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

:23:46.:23:51.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

:23:52.:23:54.

So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

:23:55.:23:57.

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

:23:58.:23:59.

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

:24:00.:24:02.

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

:24:03.:24:05.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

:24:06.:24:07.

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

:24:08.:24:09.

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

:24:10.:24:13.

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

:24:14.:24:18.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

:24:19.:24:21.

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

:24:22.:24:24.

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

:24:25.:24:28.

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

:24:29.:24:31.

It should give British companies the maximum

:24:32.:24:36.

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

:24:37.:24:39.

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

:24:40.:24:48.

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

:24:49.:25:03.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

:25:04.:25:06.

As the European Parliament voted for its new

:25:07.:25:11.

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

:25:12.:25:18.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

:25:19.:25:20.

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

:25:21.:25:23.

of free zone or tax haven, I

:25:24.:25:26.

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

:25:27.:25:32.

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

:25:33.:25:35.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

:25:36.:25:39.

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

:25:40.:25:49.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

:25:50.:25:52.

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

:25:53.:25:57.

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

:25:58.:26:00.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

:26:01.:26:04.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

:26:05.:26:07.

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

:26:08.:26:09.

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

:26:10.:26:16.

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

:26:17.:26:20.

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

:26:21.:26:24.

There will, at the end of this deal process,

:26:25.:26:27.

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

:26:28.:26:30.

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

:26:31.:26:33.

if this process started with democracy last June,

:26:34.:26:35.

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

:26:36.:26:39.

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

:26:40.:26:46.

watching it in a small room somewhere?

:26:47.:26:48.

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

:26:49.:26:55.

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

:26:56.:26:58.

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

:26:59.:27:00.

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

:27:01.:27:02.

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

:27:03.:27:06.

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

:27:07.:27:13.

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

:27:14.:27:16.

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

:27:17.:27:18.

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

:27:19.:27:24.

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

:27:25.:27:33.

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

:27:34.:27:43.

anticipating since the referendum result,

:27:44.:27:45.

particularly around the

:27:46.:27:46.

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

:27:47.:27:50.

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

:27:51.:27:54.

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

:27:55.:27:58.

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

:27:59.:28:01.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

:28:02.:28:03.

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

:28:04.:28:05.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

:28:06.:28:23.

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

:28:24.:28:26.

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

:28:27.:28:30.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

:28:31.:28:39.

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

:28:40.:28:43.

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

:28:44.:28:48.

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

:28:49.:28:51.

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

:28:52.:28:56.

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

:28:57.:28:59.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

:29:00.:29:06.

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

:29:07.:29:11.

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

:29:12.:29:15.

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

:29:16.:29:22.

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

:29:23.:29:27.

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

:29:28.:29:32.

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

:29:33.:29:35.

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

:29:36.:29:42.

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

:29:43.:29:50.

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

:29:51.:29:54.

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

:29:55.:29:58.

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

:29:59.:30:02.

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

:30:03.:30:07.

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

:30:08.:30:12.

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

:30:13.:30:15.

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

:30:16.:30:18.

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

:30:19.:30:23.

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

:30:24.:30:28.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

:30:29.:30:36.

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

:30:37.:30:41.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

:30:42.:30:47.

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

:30:48.:30:52.

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

:30:53.:30:58.

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

:30:59.:31:02.

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

:31:03.:31:06.

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

:31:07.:31:13.

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

:31:14.:31:19.

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

:31:20.:31:24.

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

:31:25.:31:29.

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

:31:30.:31:35.

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

:31:36.:31:38.

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

:31:39.:31:45.

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

:31:46.:31:57.

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

:31:58.:32:02.

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

:32:03.:32:08.

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

:32:09.:32:17.

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

:32:18.:32:22.

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

:32:23.:32:27.

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

:32:28.:32:33.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

:32:34.:32:39.

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

:32:40.:32:45.

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

:32:46.:32:50.

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

:32:51.:32:55.

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

:32:56.:32:59.

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

:33:00.:33:03.

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

:33:04.:33:11.

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

:33:12.:33:18.

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

:33:19.:33:22.

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

:33:23.:33:28.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

:33:29.:33:34.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

:33:35.:33:43.

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

:33:44.:33:50.

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

:33:51.:33:55.

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

:33:56.:33:59.

including being a member of the single market, without

:34:00.:34:02.

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

:34:03.:34:07.

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

:34:08.:34:15.

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

:34:16.:34:20.

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

:34:21.:34:24.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

:34:25.:34:31.

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

:34:32.:34:36.

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

:34:37.:34:45.

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

:34:46.:34:55.

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

:34:56.:35:04.

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

:35:05.:35:09.

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

:35:10.:35:15.

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

:35:16.:35:19.

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

:35:20.:35:24.

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

:35:25.:35:30.

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

:35:31.:35:35.

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

:35:36.:35:43.

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

:35:44.:35:49.

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

:35:50.:35:54.

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

:35:55.:35:58.

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

:35:59.:36:03.

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

:36:04.:36:10.

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

:36:11.:36:15.

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

:36:16.:36:19.

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

:36:20.:36:25.

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

:36:26.:36:31.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

:36:32.:36:40.

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

:36:41.:36:44.

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

:36:45.:36:48.

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

:36:49.:36:51.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:52.:36:52.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:53.:36:55.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

:36:56.:36:58.

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

:36:59.:37:00.

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

:37:01.:37:03.

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

:37:04.:37:06.

First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:37:07.:37:17.

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics

:37:18.:37:19.

Coming up later, dumping rubbish is a growing problem.

:37:20.:37:22.

So, why are so few councils making the most of their new powers

:37:23.:37:25.

Joining me in the studio today are Craig Mackinlay,

:37:26.:37:31.

Conservative MP for South Thanet, and by Peter Chowney,

:37:32.:37:33.

the Labour Leader of Hastings Borough Council.

:37:34.:37:36.

It is budget time for our councils and, this week, West

:37:37.:37:41.

and East Sussex and Surrey all published their financial

:37:42.:37:44.

Surrey has proposed a 15% increase to council tax and that means

:37:45.:37:51.

they will need to ask you if you agree, in a referendum.

:37:52.:37:55.

Craig, I will start with you, as this is a Conservative council

:37:56.:38:02.

I think we have to accept that we are having to deal

:38:03.:38:07.

It is great that we have all living longer, but that brings

:38:08.:38:11.

challenges for the NHS, challenges to adult social

:38:12.:38:13.

care and, of course, also, to the pension system.

:38:14.:38:16.

Now, of course, it is very difficult to know if the electors

:38:17.:38:21.

There was was a piece on South East last night,

:38:22.:38:25.

in which some people were saying, they thought

:38:26.:38:27.

they felt it was all right, because it was an affluent area, etc,

:38:28.:38:30.

but I'm sure it will be similarly opposed by some others.

:38:31.:38:33.

What I think we need is we cannot just keep saying, "Oh, it is

:38:34.:38:37.

central government", as if there is some magic money pit.

:38:38.:38:39.

But you are happy for the electorate to make

:38:40.:38:41.

It is maybe even wrong for me to assess whether there is

:38:42.:38:46.

demographic problem different to Kent, but I would assume,

:38:47.:38:49.

This is not a one-off council tax rise in Surrey, though.

:38:50.:38:53.

They have routinely raised the council tax.

:38:54.:38:55.

I was speaking to the Taxpayers' Alliance about this.

:38:56.:38:57.

They say they have raised it 82% in real terms over recent years.

:38:58.:39:00.

This is also a council where, not two years ago,

:39:01.:39:03.

they voted themselves bumper increases in their allowances.

:39:04.:39:05.

It is about ?200 for a Band D property in Surrey.

:39:06.:39:14.

It is the weekly shop for many families.

:39:15.:39:19.

It is up to the local people to decide,

:39:20.:39:21.

are they going to go along with this or not?

:39:22.:39:23.

How are we going to pay for the demands of an ageing population?

:39:24.:39:28.

There was a report commissioned a few years ago about how we might

:39:29.:39:31.

It was hoped that private insurance may cover that,

:39:32.:39:34.

but we have not got there yet. It is a serious debate.

:39:35.:39:41.

OK, it is a good way to also duck the question,

:39:42.:39:43.

Is it time to bring elderly social care into being funded centrally,

:39:44.:39:49.

so it is not is not at the mercy of richer or poorer

:39:50.:39:52.

Yes, I think it is. I think Surrey will have difficulty

:39:53.:39:56.

making a referendum for that amount to stick, to win that.

:39:57.:39:59.

But I respect their right to do it and I can understand why they are

:40:00.:40:02.

But I do think social care needs to be funded centrally.

:40:03.:40:06.

But the money has to come from somewhere, in the end.

:40:07.:40:10.

It is all very well just talking about

:40:11.:40:13.

insurance schemes and "we need to think it through", but in the end,

:40:14.:40:16.

it is an increasingly ageing population.

:40:17.:40:17.

There are more old people and the money has got

:40:18.:40:20.

It is an interesting one politically.

:40:21.:40:24.

This is a Conservative council pretty much

:40:25.:40:25.

sticking it to a conservative government.

:40:26.:40:32.

I wonder if they are actually showing themselves to be a more

:40:33.:40:35.

effective opposition than the Parliamentary Labour Party?

:40:36.:40:36.

It is a local authority, same as we all are.

:40:37.:40:40.

Many of us in local authorities are complaining about

:40:41.:40:42.

the shortage of funding, the cuts, the massive cuts in local

:40:43.:40:45.

I recognise it is particularly difficult for county councils.

:40:46.:40:49.

And where they have huge bills with adult social care,

:40:50.:40:52.

it is a big consumer of money and that is a big problem for them.

:40:53.:40:56.

We will find out in May whether they get the

:40:57.:40:59.

referendum through and also whether the council

:41:00.:41:00.

is voted back in, as well. A bit of a wait for that.

:41:01.:41:04.

I would say that referendums do tend to go funny ways.

:41:05.:41:06.

You described it as funny. That's an interesting one.

:41:07.:41:10.

Now, it was the biggest speech on Brexit since the referendum.

:41:11.:41:14.

And although there was plenty discussion about the Prime

:41:15.:41:16.

Minister's plan for Britain to leave the single market, there

:41:17.:41:19.

was little detail for the one of the South East's most vocal

:41:20.:41:22.

Many fishermen had supported Leave and, this week,

:41:23.:41:25.

a group of them went to Downing Street to meet Ministers.

:41:26.:41:27.

They campaigned to leave the European Union and sailed down

:41:28.:41:36.

They say the Common Fisheries Policy, which restricts the quota,

:41:37.:41:40.

size and type of fish they can catch, was broken.

:41:41.:41:42.

The fishermen want Britain to reclaim its

:41:43.:41:44.

waters and limit foreign boats fishing off UK shores.

:41:45.:41:52.

Our industry has been decimated by EU regulations.

:41:53.:41:54.

I have not got enough quota to earn a living at the moment.

:41:55.:41:57.

I could earn a living less than two miles from the harbour and I am

:41:58.:42:01.

having to travel 17-18 miles, to avoid species of fish that

:42:02.:42:04.

Seven months after the vote to leave the

:42:05.:42:12.

European Union there is still uncertainty

:42:13.:42:13.

as to what Brexit will mean for the fishing industry.

:42:14.:42:24.

If the UK opts for the Great Repeal Bill,

:42:25.:42:26.

to absorb EU rules into British law,

:42:27.:42:30.

the fisheries policy would still exist for the time being,

:42:31.:42:32.

while Brexit negotiations take place.

:42:33.:42:34.

But the campaign group, Fishing For Leave, are calling for:

:42:35.:42:36.

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

:42:37.:42:38.

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

:42:39.:42:44.

So, what hope is there for these recommendations?

:42:45.:42:47.

The minister in charge had this to say last month.

:42:48.:42:51.

The government remains committed to being a champion of sustainable

:42:52.:42:54.

fisheries and ending discards, as set out in our manifesto.

:42:55.:42:56.

We're also committed to the continued cooperation with

:42:57.:42:58.

other countries for the management of shared stocks.

:42:59.:43:05.

Fishing For Leave will publish its full list of demands in

:43:06.:43:07.

So much remains unclear about what will be happen

:43:08.:43:12.

once Brexit is in place, how many of them do

:43:13.:43:14.

We can go to Ramsgate Port now and talk to the head of

:43:15.:43:20.

the Thanet Fishermen's Association, John Nichols.

:43:21.:43:21.

He is one of those representatives of the fishing industry who went to

:43:22.:43:25.

John, you met with the ministers concerned.

:43:26.:43:27.

Well, it was a golden opportunity to go and sit before

:43:28.:43:38.

them and present this - the way forward for fishing in the UK.

:43:39.:43:45.

The foundation stone of what we are looking to achieve.

:43:46.:43:48.

What are you hoping to achieve? Boil it down for us.

:43:49.:43:50.

We do not have time at the moment to read

:43:51.:43:53.

the book, so tell us what you are looking for?

:43:54.:43:58.

I think the first thing is we must remove ourselves 100%

:43:59.:44:01.

which has been a failed policy since the day

:44:02.:44:07.

We need to get away from that and then work out where we are going

:44:08.:44:15.

with this document and find the proper way forward.

:44:16.:44:18.

One of the most important things is to stop discarding.

:44:19.:44:23.

When the country voted to leave the EU,

:44:24.:44:26.

did you assume Brexit would set fishermen free?

:44:27.:44:35.

I suppose it is a hope that it would set fishermen free.

:44:36.:44:38.

But you also have to realise that, in the past,

:44:39.:44:40.

Edward Heath traded us off for better things in Europe

:44:41.:44:48.

We do not want to be traded off again.

:44:49.:44:51.

So, yes, I totally believe we can achieve a

:44:52.:44:53.

proper Brexit for the fisheries and hand our

:44:54.:44:55.

When you talked to the ministers, what did they say to you?

:44:56.:45:03.

Are you encouraged that they were listening to you?

:45:04.:45:07.

I think we are encouraged at the moment, when you are there.

:45:08.:45:14.

But when you are removed from it and then think

:45:15.:45:16.

about it afterwards, there are big holes in what you have listened to.

:45:17.:45:21.

As far as David Jones is concerned, I am reasonably confident that

:45:22.:45:24.

he will read this document, take it on board and see the advantages of

:45:25.:45:27.

With George Eustace, I am just worried that he

:45:28.:45:35.

He's looking after both the agricultural

:45:36.:45:39.

I think that is too much for one person to do.

:45:40.:45:47.

I think, when you look at our sea mass, our square area of the sea

:45:48.:45:50.

is three times greater than that of the land.

:45:51.:45:52.

He is trying to look after the sea and trying to

:45:53.:45:55.

I did not think he is capable of doing both.

:45:56.:46:00.

John, thank you very much for joining us.

:46:01.:46:07.

John Nichols is worried that they are going to be,

:46:08.:46:10.

in his words, traded off again. There is a chance they will be.

:46:11.:46:13.

Do you worry that the Leave campaign promised the fishermen too much?

:46:14.:46:16.

I meet with the fishermen in Ramsgate

:46:17.:46:20.

regularly and know what the demands are.

:46:21.:46:22.

I have actually got that document and I am working my

:46:23.:46:25.

I am actually working on my own Fishing After Brexit

:46:26.:46:29.

How many of these things do we need?!

:46:30.:46:33.

I think it will be very much a similar flavour to their one.

:46:34.:46:37.

Let us be clear about how we got into this dreadful

:46:38.:46:39.

The Common Fisheries Policy has not worked for Britain.

:46:40.:46:42.

It has not worked for the under-12m fleet and it is time

:46:43.:46:45.

You were making noises when they were talking

:46:46.:46:48.

John and his crowd have put together a new policy forward, whereby

:46:49.:46:55.

This is very workable, particularly for the inshore fleet,

:46:56.:46:59.

It is sustainable, it is environmentally friendly and it is

:47:00.:47:03.

not the huge volume of these factory ships.

:47:04.:47:08.

Is there not a risk that, if we end the discard policy,

:47:09.:47:11.

where you have to land anything you do not have a quota for,

:47:12.:47:14.

you have to bring it in, on, but you cannot then sell it.

:47:15.:47:17.

It goes into landfill, or whatever, you

:47:18.:47:19.

have to entrust the fishermen to, what, not catch too much?

:47:20.:47:21.

What John has been putting forward is an hours-based system.

:47:22.:47:24.

So, you go to sea for a certain amount of hours and what

:47:25.:47:27.

That seems to be infinitely sensible.

:47:28.:47:34.

we have been discarding these perfectly good fish because it just

:47:35.:47:39.

happens to be the wrong species at the wrong time of year.

:47:40.:47:42.

So, I am fully supportive of what they are saying.

:47:43.:47:44.

But we were rather hoodwinked into the Common Fisheries Policy.

:47:45.:47:47.

I see a lot of sense in what they are saying

:47:48.:47:49.

that we should take this outwith the Great Repeal Bill and have it

:47:50.:47:52.

has a separate thing which is negotiated now.

:47:53.:47:56.

Peter, what are the fishermen in Hastings saying?

:47:57.:48:00.

They are hoping that Brexit will deliver more quota for them.

:48:01.:48:05.

But I did not think they are convinced that it will,

:48:06.:48:08.

insomuch as the problem with the system

:48:09.:48:10.

is that too much of the national quota

:48:11.:48:12.

is going to the big producer organisations and the big

:48:13.:48:14.

factory ships, rather than the under-10m fleet.

:48:15.:48:16.

Over 90% of the fleet is under ten metres.

:48:17.:48:20.

But over 90% of the quota goes to the big factory ships.

:48:21.:48:23.

One of the other issues is that, I believe, we get to sell

:48:24.:48:26.

60% of our fish to the European Union.

:48:27.:48:28.

If we want to continue to have that access, they are going to

:48:29.:48:31.

ask us to play by the same rules as they are.

:48:32.:48:34.

Do we want the access of do we want to ditch the rules?

:48:35.:48:37.

Why not? Because they will not agree to that. We are actually net

:48:38.:48:59.

importers of fish. That is quite remarkable for a country surrounded

:49:00.:49:05.

by water. That is more to do with our tastes. Why can we not just have

:49:06.:49:16.

the free trade agreement. In virtually everything we are net

:49:17.:49:22.

importers from the European union. Why would they want to be upsetting

:49:23.:49:28.

what is a good market to them. But if the house to stick to the rules

:49:29.:49:32.

and we do not, that is not fear. But there are separate rules for the

:49:33.:49:38.

likes of hours with Norway and a slimmed, as a result of the Cod Wars

:49:39.:49:49.

in the 1970s. At the moment, this is not working for anybody. John

:49:50.:49:56.

missing George use this as too much to concentrate on, on fishing and

:49:57.:50:05.

agriculture. Is this just too difficult, because you have so many

:50:06.:50:08.

huge industries wanting to be at the top of the table. There is a

:50:09.:50:21.

knock-on effect. It is not just fishing. There are so many other

:50:22.:50:25.

aspects of, particularly tourism in Hastings. Thank you very much.

:50:26.:50:33.

It blights the countryside and it is on the rise.

:50:34.:50:35.

Dumped rubbish is an increasing problem across England.

:50:36.:50:37.

Last year, councils were given new powers to issue bigger

:50:38.:50:39.

But few have made use of this punishment.

:50:40.:50:42.

And what can be done to fight the fly-tippers?

:50:43.:50:45.

Sara Neville went out on patrol to find out more.

:50:46.:50:53.

Council investigators in Dartford on the trail of fly-tippers. Carlos

:50:54.:51:05.

like this have become routine. Fly-tipping has become much more

:51:06.:51:11.

commonplace and the methodology is becoming much more sophisticated. In

:51:12.:51:16.

this case, six tonnes of rubbish dumped in a field. It is an

:51:17.:51:26.

increasing claim. Because of the clean-up costs involved, this is

:51:27.:51:29.

almost on a scale of organised crime. These perpetrators were

:51:30.:51:36.

caught during surveillance operations. The majority happens on

:51:37.:51:45.

public land. It can cost councils ?15 million of taxpayers money to

:51:46.:51:49.

clean it up. The officers received over 1000 calls last year.

:51:50.:51:55.

Nationally, the number of recorded flight tips in England went up by

:51:56.:52:02.

6%. The cost of cleaning it up in by 11%. Last year, the government give

:52:03.:52:07.

councils more power to crack down on small-scale fly-tipping with on the

:52:08.:52:16.

spot fines of up to 40 purse -- ?400. But 70% of councils have feel

:52:17.:52:23.

penalty notices across the region. penalty notices across the region.

:52:24.:52:29.

Dark Dartford council has a poor active approach. But there is worry

:52:30.:52:35.

that the cost of disposing of rubbish encourages fly-tipping.

:52:36.:52:45.

There are concerns about the tape of waste and the amount of waste that

:52:46.:52:53.

environmental lobby, but that is environmental lobby, but that is

:52:54.:52:58.

actually a negative side to that. This is a kind of place where

:52:59.:53:03.

commercial rubbish should be brought. 58,000 tonnes was managed

:53:04.:53:09.

here last year. But there are just four facilities in Kent. You need a

:53:10.:53:17.

license to use them. And disposal costs around ?150 a tonne. Keep

:53:18.:53:25.

Britain tidy wants to have fly-tipping in the next three years

:53:26.:53:29.

and believes government needs more hill from local authorities to

:53:30.:53:34.

achieve that. I want them to use some of the income they get from

:53:35.:53:42.

landfill tax to help this. We want support for greater enforcement. We

:53:43.:53:46.

want to raise awareness with households about what their

:53:47.:53:49.

responsibilities and we want government to encourage retailers

:53:50.:53:54.

and producers to play their part in reducing the amount of bulky waste

:53:55.:54:02.

which could end up being used by fly-tippers. But with council

:54:03.:54:06.

struggling to fund essential services, who is going to win in the

:54:07.:54:14.

fight against fly-tippers? No Sussex councils have used these new signs

:54:15.:54:19.

yet? Why not? I think the problem is catching people.

:54:20.:54:31.

It seems to be so many mattresses left on the streets of Hastings. But

:54:32.:54:40.

you don't know -- I have to catch them in the act. You have to have

:54:41.:54:56.

the evidence. It could be a lot of DNA on a mattress. Do not go the! It

:54:57.:55:03.

is a problem. One of the things we are looking at is offering rewards,

:55:04.:55:08.

financial rewards. At the moment, people do not want to come forward.

:55:09.:55:12.

They could appear in court potentially. The problem here is

:55:13.:55:23.

councils need the resources to chase. It is easier and cheaper to

:55:24.:55:30.

clean it banshees the perpetrators. I did not see we do not have the

:55:31.:55:34.

resources, it is all about catching them. We would be prepared to do it,

:55:35.:55:41.

even to the extent of offering rewards. It cost us a lot of money.

:55:42.:55:47.

It cost about ?90,000 to clean up fly-tipping. If it is hard to catch

:55:48.:55:53.

them, it is a pretty empty policy? them, it is a pretty empty policy?

:55:54.:56:06.

There have been six prosecutions in Thanet for fly-tipping. We have two

:56:07.:56:12.

different types of it. We have thus mass fly-tipping that we saw in the

:56:13.:56:20.

video the, plus the more common than casual tape of fly-tipping, the

:56:21.:56:28.

likes of household goods being left outside.

:56:29.:56:39.

places' takeaway waste for ?200 and places' takeaway waste for ?200 and

:56:40.:56:49.

that is that sort of stuff which is ending up in a field. When we go

:56:50.:56:56.

back to the person find ?200. Both parties will be punished in these

:56:57.:57:01.

cases? 27 times in Kent that happened last year. There is talk of

:57:02.:57:08.

on the spot fines as a deterrent, but many people do not seem to even

:57:09.:57:16.

know about them? I do not think it is enough money. If it went to

:57:17.:57:21.

court, the court fine would be a lot more. Possibly thousands of pounds.

:57:22.:57:25.

I think the councils could maintain their own streets better. We are

:57:26.:57:35.

finding the fridges and mergers has been dumped on the road because the

:57:36.:57:40.

collections have reduced. What about making dumping easier. A lot of

:57:41.:57:46.

people have been falling into a radio show to see I got to the dump

:57:47.:57:52.

and they said the trailer was two inches long, you cannot dump the

:57:53.:57:57.

stuff here. We have to make things a bit more reasonable. Yes, we could

:57:58.:58:03.

be doing things better but way. That is talk about making bulky items

:58:04.:58:08.

free. It would not cost a lot more to do that. The analysis has been

:58:09.:58:19.

done. People take their own stuff to the type and having it cheaper

:58:20.:58:27.

having it collected. We would want that collected for free. I think the

:58:28.:58:32.

waste disposal sites run by the council have to be a bit more free

:58:33.:58:36.

and easy. Has to be slightly more accommodating.

:58:37.:58:39.

And now, it is time for some of the other news you may have

:58:40.:58:42.

Councillors from 19 local authorities are calling on

:58:43.:58:45.

the government to crack down on gangs exploiting inner-city

:58:46.:58:47.

children exploiting children to sell drugs in Kent and Sussex.

:58:48.:58:50.

They have written a letter to the Home Secretary,

:58:51.:58:52.

claiming the issue could be the next grooming scandal.

:58:53.:58:56.

Grooming children to become drug dealers to sell drugs from London.

:58:57.:58:59.

Members of the public could be excluded from part

:59:00.:59:07.

of a beach in Whitstable, if plans to restrict

:59:08.:59:10.

THe Whitstable Oyster Company Wants to establish an

:59:11.:59:12.

exclusion zone on the land, which they own, which would

:59:13.:59:15.

It cannot be right that people who have been using this beach,

:59:16.:59:19.

like the sea cadets, like the sea scouts,

:59:20.:59:21.

for more than 50 years should be brushed aside.

:59:22.:59:30.

The Ukip-run Thanet District Council are consulting on plans to build

:59:31.:59:33.

2,500 homes on the site of Manston Airport,

:59:34.:59:35.

The party had been elected on a policy of reopening the airport.

:59:36.:59:53.

It is game over on the airport? Absolutely not. It is a site of

:59:54.:00:03.

national significance and they will keep fighting for it.

:00:04.:00:06.

That is all we have got time for from the South East this week.

:00:07.:00:09.

My thanks to our guests for today, Peter Chowney and Craig Mackinlay.

:00:10.:00:10.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

:00:11.:00:12.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

:00:13.:00:22.

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

:00:23.:00:26.

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

:00:27.:00:38.

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

:00:39.:00:42.

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

:00:43.:00:49.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

:00:50.:00:57.

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

:00:58.:01:02.

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

:01:03.:01:06.

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

:01:07.:01:13.

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

:01:14.:01:18.

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

:01:19.:01:21.

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

:01:22.:01:26.

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

:01:27.:01:34.

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

:01:35.:01:41.

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

:01:42.:01:46.

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

:01:47.:01:49.

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

:01:50.:01:56.

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

:01:57.:02:00.

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

:02:01.:02:07.

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

:02:08.:02:10.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

:02:11.:02:15.

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

:02:16.:02:21.

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

:02:22.:02:27.

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

:02:28.:02:32.

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

:02:33.:02:40.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

:02:41.:02:45.

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

:02:46.:02:50.

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

:02:51.:02:54.

University there are further education colleges all over the

:02:55.:02:59.

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

:03:00.:03:07.

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

:03:08.:03:12.

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

:03:13.:03:17.

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

:03:18.:03:22.

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

:03:23.:03:27.

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

:03:28.:03:33.

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

:03:34.:03:37.

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

:03:38.:03:49.

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

:03:50.:03:51.

government department, and bringing together everything that government

:03:52.:03:53.

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

:03:54.:03:56.

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

:03:57.:04:02.

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

:04:03.:04:06.

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

:04:07.:04:11.

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

:04:12.:04:16.

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

:04:17.:04:21.

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

:04:22.:04:26.

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

:04:27.:04:33.

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

:04:34.:04:37.

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

:04:38.:04:43.

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

:04:44.:04:48.

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

:04:49.:04:51.

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

:04:52.:04:57.

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

:04:58.:05:03.

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

:05:04.:05:08.

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

:05:09.:05:13.

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

:05:14.:05:18.

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

:05:19.:05:21.

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

:05:22.:05:26.

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

:05:27.:05:32.

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

:05:33.:05:40.

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

:05:41.:05:47.

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

:05:48.:05:51.

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

:05:52.:05:57.

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

:05:58.:06:02.

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

:06:03.:06:08.

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

:06:09.:06:11.

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

:06:12.:06:16.

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

:06:17.:06:19.

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

:06:20.:06:27.

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

:06:28.:06:32.

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

:06:33.:06:37.

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

:06:38.:06:42.

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

:06:43.:06:48.

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

:06:49.:06:53.

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

:06:54.:07:00.

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

:07:01.:07:05.

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

:07:06.:07:13.

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

:07:14.:07:17.

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

:07:18.:07:24.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

:07:25.:07:31.

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

:07:32.:07:35.

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

:07:36.:07:41.

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

:07:42.:07:44.

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

:07:45.:07:48.

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

:07:49.:07:53.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

:07:54.:07:57.

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

:07:58.:08:06.

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

:08:07.:08:12.

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

:08:13.:08:16.

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

:08:17.:08:23.

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

:08:24.:08:28.

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

:08:29.:08:32.

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

:08:33.:08:36.

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

:08:37.:08:41.

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

:08:42.:08:46.

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

:08:47.:08:51.

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

:08:52.:08:56.

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

:08:57.:09:00.

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

:09:01.:09:05.

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

:09:06.:09:11.

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

:09:12.:09:16.

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

:09:17.:09:21.

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

:09:22.:09:26.

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

:09:27.:09:31.

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

:09:32.:09:36.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

:09:37.:09:48.

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

:09:49.:09:52.

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

:09:53.:09:55.

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

:09:56.:10:00.

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

:10:01.:10:11.

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

:10:12.:10:15.

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

:10:16.:10:20.

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

:10:21.:10:27.

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

:10:28.:10:32.

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

:10:33.:10:37.

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

:10:38.:10:40.

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

:10:41.:10:46.

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

:10:47.:10:54.

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

:10:55.:11:02.

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

:11:03.:11:09.

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

:11:10.:11:12.

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

:11:13.:11:18.

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

:11:19.:11:24.

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

:11:25.:11:29.

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

:11:30.:11:33.

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

:11:34.:11:37.

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

:11:38.:11:41.

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

:11:42.:11:47.

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

:11:48.:11:52.

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

:11:53.:11:59.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

:12:00.:12:03.

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

:12:04.:12:08.

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

:12:09.:12:15.

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

:12:16.:12:20.

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

:12:21.:12:26.

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

:12:27.:12:31.

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

:12:32.:12:35.

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

:12:36.:12:41.

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

:12:42.:12:44.

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

:12:45.:12:51.

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

:12:52.:12:56.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

:12:57.:13:01.

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

:13:02.:13:07.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

:13:08.:13:15.

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

:13:16.:13:18.

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

:13:19.:13:26.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

:13:27.:13:31.

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

:13:32.:13:33.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:34.:13:37.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:13:38.:14:16.

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

:14:17.:14:19.

Andrew Neil, Julia George and guests including shadow home secretary Diane Abbott provide reaction to Theresa May's Brexit speech and look at the inauguration of US president Donald Trump. On the political panel are Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRadio, Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun and broadcaster and journalist Steve Richards.