23/03/2014 Sunday Politics South


23/03/2014

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The dust has barely

:00:36.:00:43.

settled on George Osborne's Budget and, amazingly, for once it hasn't

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all gone horribly wrong by the weekend. So, is this the election

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springboard the Tories needed, and where does it leave Labour? Turns

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out the big Budget surprise was a revolution in how we pay for old

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age. The Pensions Minister says he's relaxed if you want to spend it all

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on a Lamborghini. He'll join us later. And could the man with the

:01:02.:01:07.

maracas be on his way to Westminster? Bez from the Happy

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In the South... plan

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In the South... Are we worrying too much about the

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human rights of prisoners and not enough about their victims? The

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sister of a murdered Hampshire woman says we are.

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In London, the Mafia man gets to stay in Axbridge. Are there ways of

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making the European arrest warrant work better? -- Uxbridge. And who

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better to help guide you through all of that than three journalists, who

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dispense wisdom faster than Grant Shapps calls out the numbers in his

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local bingo hall over a pint of beer. Yes, they're hard-working and

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they're doing the things they enjoy. Cup of tea, number three. It's Nick

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Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

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So, George Osborne delivered his fifth Budget on Wednesday and had so

:02:00.:02:04.

many glowing front pages the day afterwards he must be running out of

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room to pin them up in on his bedroom wall. Although it's probably

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a pretty big wall. For those of you who didn't have time to watch 3.5

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hours of Budget coverage on the BBC, here's Giles with the whole thing in

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three minutes. Budget days have a rhythm of their

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own, driven partly by tradition, like that photocall at 11 Downing

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Street and part logistics, how to get this important statement out and

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explain to those whom it affects - us? Behind-the-scenes of a Budget

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Day is much the same. This ritual red boxery may be the beginning of

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the end of weeks of work behind the scenes in the Treasury and sets the

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clock ticking on the process of finding out the answer to one

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question. You got any rabbits in the box, Chancellor? Yes, there will be

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something in the Budget we don't know about. Time marches steadily

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towards the statement and already commentators are hovering over what

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those potential surprises are. As Big Ben chimes, all focus returns to

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the Commons, where there is Prime Minister's questions and the

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Chancellor gets up and does his thing. Once he's on his feet and

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remembering there is still no copy of the details, the major measures

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are rapidly highlighted as they come and then put up on screen. A cap on

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Government welfare spending set for 2015/16 at 119 billion. Income tax

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personal allowance raised to ?10,500. Bingo duty halved, which

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ticked boxes for some but was unlikely to make anyone a poster

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boy. And the beer tax cut of 1p, or the froth on the top. And changes to

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pensions allowing people to take their money out in one lump sum,

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rather than being forced to accept a fixed annual pay-out, or annuity.

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This is a Budget for the makers, the doers and the savers and I commend

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it to the House. Not everyone can focus on the Budget by listening to

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what the Chancellor says. We need to get a copy of the script. We do not

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get that till he sits down. I'm going to go into the House of

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Commons to get that right now. There will be a response on that and all

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the other things from Mr Miliband. The Chancellor spoke for nearly an

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hour but he did not mention one essential fact, the working people

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of Britain are worse off under the Tories. It is a tricky job answering

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the Budget at the best of times, though some, including Labour MPs,

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think it is better to mention the Budget when you do.

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Here we are. I am going to go. I am not the only journalist missing Ed

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Miliband's speech. Many others leave the Chamber as the Chancellor sits

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down to attend a special briefing from the Chancellor's advisory team.

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I am hotfoot to the studio. There is a little more detail to the Budget

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than the Budget Speech. That detail can be whether words unravel and

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other interpretations emerge. By now the gaggle of supporters and

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detractors are taking the debate onto the airwaves. Are you the BBC?

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Have the Daily Politics packed up? No, we're still standing and, days

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later, still trying to assess whether the measures announced still

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seem fresh and appetising or have already gone stale in the minds of

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voters? How significant are these two poles

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this morning putting Labour and Tory nip and tuck? Osborne gave his party

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a good bounce. It was an astonishingly theatrical coup. At

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first glance, it seems like a huge gift to all people. That is where

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all of the money has been channelled by this government. They have been

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ultra-protected, triple locked. Pensioners have done very well and

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others less well. It is not surprising. Normally a budget which

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is well received on the day and the day after has unravelled by the

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weekend. This time, it has not, so far. The dangerous thing for the

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Labour Party now, George Osborne is the assessment this thing called the

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baseline. He says, in government, you must control the baseline. The

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Labour party controlled in 2001 and 2005 and he needs to control it next

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time. He is controlling it on fiscal policy because labour is matching

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them on everything. The danger for Labour on the big, headline grabbing

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issue, which was freeing up annuities on pensions, that again

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Labour was pretty much saying it was going to support it though it were

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saying it has to be fair and cost-effective. On a big, policy

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issue, they are following on behind George Osborne. George Osborne is

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controlling the crucial baseline. Are we in danger of reading too much

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into the political implications of the budget? The good thing about the

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pensions policy is, if it does unravel, it will not happen for ten

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years and, by that time, George Osborne will have left office.

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Towards the end of his speech, I thought, that is not enough. There

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is not an idea in your budget which is politically very vivid a year

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before an election. What I underestimated was, how many

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frustrated savers that are in the country. There are a lot of people

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who are frustrated by low interest rates and tax rates on pension pots.

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This was an explicit gesture for them. That is what has paid off in

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the polls in the past few days. You spend all of your money on your

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wardrobe, is that right? The bingo poster was a kind of get out of jail

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card for Labour. It gave them something to zoom in on. Everyone

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beat up on Grant Shapps, the Tory chairman. We read in the daily

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Telegraph that the fingerprints of the Chancellor were all over this

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poster. The Chancellor signed off it -- off on it and so did Lynton

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Crosby. They referred to working class people as, they are. How did

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it get into the Telegraph? We can only presume but grant Shapps made

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it clear that it was not him. We had a time when Labour politicians, we

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saw from the response of Ed Miliband onwards, they were not quite sure

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how to react to this budget. A lot of detail had to be absorbed.

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Suddenly, here is something we can talk about. You can see the thinking

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behind the poster was very sensible. We are not Tory toffs, we are

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interested in helping people who do not come from our backgrounds. The

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wording was awful and played into every cliche. It was all his fault.

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It shows how unsophisticated he was. There were people from Tory HQ

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who agreed the budget. A month down the line will the budget look as

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good? Probably. Once people look at it, pensions are fiendishly

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conjugated. Once they look and see what it will do with people having

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to pay for their own care because they can now take capital at their

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pension, that will come as a shock to a lot of people with small

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savings. It all be gone on their care. The polling will be neck and

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neck all the way. In the past, George Osborne has been accused of

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using his Budgets to tinker at the margins or pull cheap tricks on his

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political opponents. Perish the thought. But the big surprise in

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this year's statement was a genuinely radical shake-up of the

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pensions system that will affect most people who've yet to retire. At

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the moment, everyone is saving money into a defined contribution pension,

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that is the type most common in the private sector. They can take 25% of

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the pot is a tax-free lump sum when they retire. The rest of the money,

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for most people, they are forced to buy an annuity, a form of insurance

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which provide a guaranteed monthly income until they die. Annuities

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have hardly been a bargain since interest rates were flat slashed

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following the financial crash. Even with a ?100,000 pension pot would

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only get an income of ?5,800 a year at current rates. From 2018,

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pensioners will not be forced to buy an annuity. They can do what they

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like with their money, even taking the entire pot as a lump some but

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paying tax on 75% of it. With an average pension pot closer

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to around ?30,000, pensioners would be more likely to buy a Skoda

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instead of a Lamborghini. Most newly retired people who take the cash are

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more likely to spend the money paying off their mortgage, helping a

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family member to buy a property or investing the money elsewhere. Well,

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earlier I spoke to the Pensions Minister. He's a Lib Dem called

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Steve Webb. I began by asking him if he still thought the reforms might

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lead to pensioners splurging all their savings on supercars. What

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this reform is about is treating people as adults. For far too long,

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we have said, we will make sure you save for your old age and then we

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will control each year how much is spent on what you spend it on. What

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we are saying is because we have formed -- reformed the state

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pension, we will be much more relaxed about what people do with

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their own money. The evidence is that people who have been frugal and

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saved hard for retirement do not generally blows a lot. They will

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spin it out. It is treating people as adults and giving them choices

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they should have had all along. It is a red herring, isn't it? The

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average pension pot is between 25000 and 30,000. Lamborghinis aren't an

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option, correct? I gather only about 5000 people a year retiring can buy

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a flashy Italian sports car. It might be about paying off a

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mortgage, paying off outstanding debts. Maybe spending more money

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earlier in retirement when they are fit and able and can enjoy it more.

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We will give people guidance. We will make sure when they retire,

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there is someone to have a conversation with talking through

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the implications of spending the money early and options of investing

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it. This will be a real step forward. Even if you have a much

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bigger pension pot, say half ?1 million, which is way bigger than

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the average, even then the marginal rates of tax will be a disincentive

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to take it all out at once. You will lose huge chunks of it at the 40%

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band and then the 45% band. The tax system gives you the incentive to

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spread it out if the tax threshold is a bit over 10000 and the state

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pension is a bit over 7000, the first 3000 you draw out in a given

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year is tax-free. The next band is at 20%. Spreading your money will

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mean you pay less tax. That is why, in general, people will not blow the

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lot up front. They will spread it out over their retirement. You have

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kept this policy quiet. Not even a hint. How did you test it? How did

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you make sure it would be robust? You did not do a consultation. I

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have been talking about freeing up the annuity market for a decade. The

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idea of giving people more choice. The government has relaxed rules

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over this Parliament. It was not a completely new idea. We know in

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places like Australia and America, people have these freedoms. We

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already have something to judge it by. We will spend the next year

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talking to people, working it through. There will be a three-month

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consultation. I want people to have choices about their own money. There

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is detail still to be worked out and we are in listening mode about how

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we implement it. When you announce something you cannot do widespread

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consultation, for the reasons I have given, you do run the risk of

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unforeseen consequences? Pension companies this morning are

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indicating, you, the government can write you are looking for ?25

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billion of infrastructure investment from us. You hold our shell below

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the water line. That may not happen. We spoke internally about the

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implications for instruction -- infrastructure. It seems to me there

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will still be long-term investments. Many people want to turn their whole

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pot into an income. I understand the insurance companies are lobbying,

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but I'm convinced there will still be plenty of money for investment

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and infrastructure. If the Chancellor's pro-savings measures

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work, that will generate more savings. With no requirement now to

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buy an annuity, surely it is the case that pension pots are another

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ordinary savings fund, so why should they continue to get favourable tax

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treatment? Bear in mind that a lot of the tax treatment of pensioners

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is tax deferred so most people pay tax at the standard rate. If they

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put money into a pension, they don't pay tax when they earn it, but they

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do at retirement. We do want, we will still have automatic enrolment

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into workplace pensions, we do want people to build up, because at age

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20 and 30 nobody thinks about retirement. It is still vital that

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people do reach retirement to have these new choices with a decent

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sized pension pot. Pensions. Tax breaks because they were supposed to

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provide an income in retirement, that is how it was structured, but

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that is no longer a requirement, surely that undermines the case that

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if they get tax breaks, other forms of savings should get tax breaks.

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Other forms do get tax breaks, of course. The return with ISAs is tax

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free. The point with pensions is that you are simply deferring your

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earnings. There is a bit when high tax rate payers get a kick when they

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are working and then retire on standard rate, so there is the issue

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of the top getting too many tax breaks, but the basic principle that

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you pay tax when you get the income seems right to me and isn't affected

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by these changes. You have announced save friendly measures, are we right

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to look at them as a consolation prize because savers have suffered

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from the Government's policy of keeping interest rates abnormally

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low? It is certainly the case that very low interest rates have been a

:18:44.:18:48.

huge boon to people of working age with mortgages, and people who have

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retired said they thought they could have got a better deal on their

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savings. I think there is a recognition that whilst we have done

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the right thing with pensioners on the state pension, we have brought

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in the triple lock, and many will bent on -- benefit from these

:19:10.:19:19.

changes. Why don't savers who are not pensioners get the same help?

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They have been hit by low interest rates as well. Those of working

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age, many of them say they have benefited from low interest rates

:19:31.:19:35.

was predominantly people in retirement have not had the benefit.

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Obviously people of working age will have benefited from the tax

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allowance so it is a myth to say the Budget was all about pensioners. And

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yet even when the Office for Budget Responsibility takes into account

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your new measures, it still shows that over the next five years

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households will save less and less, indeed the savings ratio falls by

:20:07.:20:13.

50%. You haven't done enough. One of the things we know is that the

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economy is picking up strongly, and as we have more confidence about the

:20:18.:20:22.

future they will be more willing to consume now, so without these

:20:23.:20:25.

measures it may be that the saving rate would have fallen further. We

:20:26.:20:31.

want people to save and spend, it is about getting the right balance. As

:20:32.:20:37.

the economy picks up, people will want to spend more of their money

:20:38.:20:42.

and it is about getting the balance right. You make the point that if

:20:43.:20:47.

people are little profligate with their private pensions, they will

:20:48.:20:51.

have the state pension to fall back on and it will be higher than it has

:20:52.:20:56.

been, but it is also the case that in these circumstances they will

:20:57.:21:01.

still be entitled to housing benefit and even to perhaps some council tax

:21:02.:21:06.

benefit as well. Do you know by how much this could put the welfare bill

:21:07.:21:13.

up? We think the impact will be relatively modest because the sort

:21:14.:21:18.

of people who save for a pension and make sacrifices while they are at

:21:19.:21:22.

work are not the sort of people who get to 65 and decide to blow the lot

:21:23.:21:29.

for the great privilege of receiving council tax benefit or housing

:21:30.:21:32.

benefit. There will be people on the margins and

:21:33.:21:44.

benefit. There will be people on the who retire with some capital want to

:21:45.:21:44.

put some money away for their funeral. People like to save even

:21:45.:21:51.

into retirement so the myth of the spendthrift pensioner I don't

:21:52.:21:57.

believe. I think this has been rightly welcomed. Ever fancied a

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Lamborghini yourself? If you turned the camera around you would see my

:22:04.:22:18.

2-door Corsa! What's your favourite thing about an

:22:19.:22:21.

election? Could it be the candidates ringing on your door while you're

:22:22.:22:24.

having dinner? The leaflets piling up on your doormat? Or the endless

:22:25.:22:27.

adverts aimed at hardworking families? Well, if you thought that

:22:28.:22:30.

was bad enough, then you might want to consider going overseas for the

:22:31.:22:33.

2015 election because the parties are going to be aiming their message

:22:34.:22:36.

at you like never before. Adam's been to Worcester to find out more.

:22:37.:22:42.

One of the most famous political figures in history lived here, she

:22:43.:22:47.

is called Worcester woman. She was in her 30s, working class with a

:22:48.:22:52.

couple of kids, aspirational yet worried about quality of life. But

:22:53.:22:56.

she wasn't a real person, she was a label for the kind of voter new

:22:57.:23:00.

Labour were trying to reach and she was later joined by Mondeo man and

:23:01.:23:08.

several others. Doesn't that all seem a bit 90s? The technique,

:23:09.:23:12.

called segmentation, was used by George Bush in 2004. Then refined by

:23:13.:23:19.

Barack Obama. Rather than focusing on crude measures like cars and

:23:20.:23:25.

hometowns, they delved into the minds of voters. It is not just

:23:26.:23:28.

women, not just people who live in cities, but if you start to put

:23:29.:23:34.

together these groups of people you can even in an anecdote or way

:23:35.:23:40.

imagine who they are, what types of language and imagery might relate to

:23:41.:23:48.

them. We have been given access to a new polling model being used here by

:23:49.:23:53.

this firm, which is pretty close to the one we are told is being used by

:23:54.:23:59.

the Tories. It carves the country into six personality types, and we

:24:00.:24:04.

are trying it out on Worcester woman and wast of man. We are using an

:24:05.:24:10.

online quiz to work out who is in which segment. Meet new monk,

:24:11.:24:18.

Susie. She feels well represented. I know the Budget and the increases to

:24:19.:24:25.

childcare, I think at the moment I am fairly represented. This puts her

:24:26.:24:30.

in the category of optimistic contentment, people who feel they

:24:31.:24:35.

are doing OK. Terry, on the other hand, isn't happy about Britain

:24:36.:24:43.

today. Health and safety and all that! I hardly recognise the country

:24:44.:24:52.

a living in any more? Yes. Are you ready for the result? He is Mr

:24:53.:24:59.

comfortable nostalgia, they tend to favour the Tories and UKIP. They

:25:00.:25:03.

dislike the cultural changes they see as altering Britain for the

:25:04.:25:09.

worst. That sums me up. Tony is worried as well but feels much less

:25:10.:25:17.

secure. I look forward to the future with optimism or anxiety? Anxiety.

:25:18.:25:25.

Optimist or pessimist? Pessimist. His category is... You feel a bit

:25:26.:25:35.

insecure, you think the Government could probably help you more? Yes.

:25:36.:25:42.

Labour picks up a lot of these voters. This man is being asked to

:25:43.:25:48.

do more and more at work, but he is getting less and less. I am getting

:25:49.:25:56.

more towards the despair side. Things are getting tougher,

:25:57.:26:01.

generally? It puts him into the segment called long-term despair,

:26:02.:26:07.

people who feel left out. Finally, this is ever thoughtful Carol. I am

:26:08.:26:17.

a bit of an idealist. Her idealism makes her a cosmopolitan critic. I

:26:18.:26:24.

am a liberal person. Apparently a lot of the media fit into this

:26:25.:26:28.

category as well. There is one group of voters we have not come across,

:26:29.:26:33.

people who show calm persistence. They hope things will get better but

:26:34.:26:38.

don't expect them to. They are coping, rather than comfortable.

:26:39.:26:43.

Presumably they are all out of work. Which group are you win? You can

:26:44.:26:48.

take the poll on the BBC website, and in the coming weeks we will be

:26:49.:26:52.

doing our own polling using the six segments to see of the politicians

:26:53.:27:00.

really have worked out how we think. And as Adam said, if you want to try

:27:01.:27:04.

the survey for yourself, you can go to the BBC website and click on the

:27:05.:27:06.

link. And we're joined now by the

:27:07.:27:15.

pollster, Rick Nye. Welcome to Sunday Politics. We have had

:27:16.:27:22.

Worcester woman, Worcester man, is this any different? It is a

:27:23.:27:29.

recognition that or politician -- all politics these days is like

:27:30.:27:42.

this. It enables them to cut them more finally. You think all politics

:27:43.:27:50.

is coalition politics, you think they have to put together these

:27:51.:27:55.

groups of people, not that the Lib Dems will always be in power? No,

:27:56.:28:01.

and if you listen to the coverage these days you might think it is

:28:02.:28:07.

about grumpy old men on the one hand with Guardian readers on the other.

:28:08.:28:12.

It is far more complicated than that, there is a lot of churning

:28:13.:28:15.

going on underneath which is driven by people's value systems. A lot of

:28:16.:28:23.

this has been pioneered in the United States, very sophisticated on

:28:24.:28:27.

their election techniques, and in Britain we are always the first to

:28:28.:28:32.

grab whatever the New Year will is from America. How do you think this

:28:33.:28:38.

will translate to this country? I think it means that if you are

:28:39.:28:41.

target photo you will still get the same of leaflets and people calling,

:28:42.:28:47.

but you will probably have different kinds of conversations because

:28:48.:28:52.

people on the other side, the party campaigners, will think they know

:28:53.:28:59.

more about you. Will I know who you are? If I am a party campaigner,

:29:00.:29:03.

will I know, looking down the street, who fits into which

:29:04.:29:08.

category? You will be able to approximate that with all of the

:29:09.:29:11.

other data that you have gathered through polling, or doing local

:29:12.:29:17.

campaigning, that is the idea to make sense of this vast quantity of

:29:18.:29:23.

data people have about voters. We asked our panel to fill in your

:29:24.:29:28.

survey. Nick is optimistic contentment, 99%. He was 1%

:29:29.:29:34.

cosmopolitan critic, which is how he keeps his job at the Guardian.

:29:35.:29:39.

Polly's job could not be more secure, 100% cosmopolitan critics,

:29:40.:29:46.

and Janan Ganesh, optimistic contentment, which is what you would

:29:47.:29:49.

expect from a financial Times columnist. What do you make of this

:29:50.:30:06.

technique? Why are you only 99? It sounds really clever. 95% of the

:30:07.:30:15.

population five years ago voted Labour or the Conservatives. We have

:30:16.:30:20.

got away from that. It is coalition politics. You need sophisticated

:30:21.:30:26.

methods. Presumably you must not lose touch with basic points. You

:30:27.:30:33.

said it was used in the US presidential elections. Wasn't there

:30:34.:30:38.

them moment emit Romney 's sweet when the initial response was, we

:30:39.:30:43.

did not know the sort of people voted. His next response was, we did

:30:44.:30:50.

not know these people existed. Unless you know about certain key

:30:51.:30:54.

demographics, you are wasting your time. Is it important in modern

:30:55.:31:00.

campaigning? I think it is useful because it is about attitude. We

:31:01.:31:11.

have got Mosaic. We have got Acorn. It does not tell us very much. What

:31:12.:31:16.

people think and feel may be different to their income. You can

:31:17.:31:19.

be quite a high earner and anxious. You can be quite a low earner and

:31:20.:31:24.

feeling aspirational and optimistic about the future. I think this does

:31:25.:31:31.

get something else. In days gone by, particularly in America,

:31:32.:31:36.

overwhelmingly, if you are in the better of segment, you would be

:31:37.:31:40.

Republican and the blue-collar workers and some academics and

:31:41.:31:44.

Liberals voted Democrat. In the last election, the richest 200 counties

:31:45.:31:49.

in America voted Democrat. That is an attitude thing. Income does not

:31:50.:31:54.

tell you how people will vote. There is a huge, working-class base of

:31:55.:31:59.

support for the Republicans. It is unavoidable. Add a time when people

:32:00.:32:03.

no longer identify with ideologies or class blocks, you have to go the

:32:04.:32:12.

temperament and lifestyle and manageable. In America there were

:32:13.:32:21.

128 segments according to lifestyle and Outlook. Once you get to that

:32:22.:32:27.

stage, it becomes close to useless. We were talking about the budget

:32:28.:32:32.

earlier. What other polls saying about the budget? The lead of labour

:32:33.:32:40.

has been narrowed over the Conservatives. -- Labour. Osborne

:32:41.:32:48.

and Cameron as an academic team have always had a lead over Miller band

:32:49.:32:54.

and Balls. This week it is about economic management. -- over Mr

:32:55.:32:56.

Miller band. Thank you for being with us today.

:32:57.:33:12.

It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:33:13.:33:16.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:33:17.:33:19.

Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes: We'll

:33:20.:33:27.

Scotland. Coming up here in 20 Welcome to Sunday Politics South, my

:33:28.:33:29.

name's Peter Henley. On today's show, we'll be talking to the sister

:33:30.:33:33.

of one murder victim whose killer is arguing that his human rights have

:33:34.:33:37.

been breached. Are we too worried about the rights of the perpetrator,

:33:38.:33:41.

not the victim? More on that shortly. First let's

:33:42.:33:44.

meet the two politicians who'll be with me for the next 20 minutes.

:33:45.:33:47.

Gerald Vernon`Jackson is the Liberal Democrat leader of Portsmouth City

:33:48.:33:50.

Council, and Bob Price is the Labour leader of Oxford City Council.

:33:51.:34:03.

Budget this week, of course. To find cities benefiting I'm sure from some

:34:04.:34:09.

of the economic recovery, but still a lot of the medicine of austerity

:34:10.:34:20.

to take. `` two fine cities. Yes, you cannot live on credit for ever.

:34:21.:34:25.

But it will be painful and there will be more pain to come. People do

:34:26.:34:33.

not really realise that. I think you're right. The next financial

:34:34.:34:37.

year will be the worst year for cuts in local government, starting in

:34:38.:34:41.

April. There will be massive cuts which will be very difficult,

:34:42.:34:45.

particularly in councils which do social services. Is that the same

:34:46.:34:52.

for you? Very much so. We have a long way to go in terms of

:34:53.:34:56.

reductions. Exports also are not doing well and we need to do

:34:57.:35:01.

something about that. But there are new jobs being created in Oxford.

:35:02.:35:07.

Yes, but the fundamental one has been highlighted in the budget.

:35:08.:35:11.

There are many more deficit reductions to go and what they will

:35:12.:35:15.

do two jobs is not clear. Do you think there could be another dip? I

:35:16.:35:21.

think we are clearly on the right lines and the government looks to be

:35:22.:35:27.

going in the right direction. I think the recovery will be

:35:28.:35:29.

sustained. But you need to look at the huge amount of debt which has

:35:30.:35:34.

been built up over the years. It has to be paid back. But there will be

:35:35.:35:38.

jobs created, their jobs being created the whole of Portsmouth and

:35:39.:35:43.

the south`east of Hampshire. That is creating wealth but we need more and

:35:44.:35:47.

more of it to make sure the recovery is sustained. The jobs being created

:35:48.:35:55.

are not wealth creating in a fundamental sense. We have to export

:35:56.:35:58.

a lot more to get that trade deficit down and a lot of the jobs are not

:35:59.:36:18.

support backpack in spread I'm not backpack `` a lot of the jobs are

:36:19.:36:22.

not export related. Should a prisoner be able to claim

:36:23.:36:26.

for compensation if he or she feels they've been failed by the system?

:36:27.:36:29.

In this case, a man who raped and murdered a young woman in Hampshire

:36:30.:36:32.

says his human rights have been breached because the prison service

:36:33.:36:34.

failed to supply adequate rehabilitation courses. Our

:36:35.:36:37.

Hampshire and Isle of Wight reporter Jessica Parker has been to meet the

:36:38.:36:39.

victim's sister... For us to hear the person who

:36:40.:36:43.

murdered my sister may be in line for some kind of compensation, it's

:36:44.:36:48.

just so unfair. It is so unkind and it is just not right. Sheila Painter

:36:49.:36:57.

grew up in Andover her sister, but aged 22, Linda was raped and

:36:58.:37:02.

murdered as she walked home from a friend 's. Months later, to `` a man

:37:03.:37:08.

was given life for the crime. Still incarcerated, Duncan is making a

:37:09.:37:13.

claim against the Scottish prison service which could see him awarded

:37:14.:37:17.

compensation. Arbor Duncan has argued the Scottish prison service

:37:18.:37:22.

failed to provide him with rehabilitation courses which would

:37:23.:37:25.

have increased his chances of gaining parole. A judge has

:37:26.:37:29.

provisionally found that his human rights may have been breached,

:37:30.:37:33.

saying there was no proper opportunity of access to

:37:34.:37:38.

rehabilitation programmes for six years. I know there are certain

:37:39.:37:44.

rights that people have to have, but we did not have any rights. My

:37:45.:37:50.

parents lost the right to have a living daughter. I lost my sister.

:37:51.:37:55.

We lost our rights but he has always rights and people are helping him

:37:56.:38:04.

still. Until April 2007, Duncan had been given a number of therapies,

:38:05.:38:08.

including a programme for sex offenders, a course on victim

:38:09.:38:14.

empathy. Sheila feels her family were left to struggle on alone. If

:38:15.:38:22.

she died in an accident or an illness, you would talk about it

:38:23.:38:26.

freely. We did not talk about her. I feel like I've let her down, really.

:38:27.:38:32.

We've not kept her memory alive as we should've done. The judge's

:38:33.:38:37.

provisional finding site Article five of the European Convention on

:38:38.:38:40.

Human Rights, which protects the right to and security. But the

:38:41.:38:45.

Scottish Government has since won lead to raise a legal challenge, and

:38:46.:38:56.

a letter has been written to David Cameron voicing their complaint.

:38:57.:39:03.

Because Linda was taken away from us in such horrible circumstances, we

:39:04.:39:08.

never talk about her. I've never had the chance to discover how brilliant

:39:09.:39:14.

my aunt was. If Arbor Duncan is claiming his human rights have been

:39:15.:39:18.

infringed, we expect to demonstrate how human years by refusing any form

:39:19.:39:23.

of compensation or by donating any payment to charity. Any decent human

:39:24.:39:32.

would do this. It has been nearly 44 years since Linda was murdered, and

:39:33.:39:35.

Sheila has rarely talked in public about what happened. With this

:39:36.:39:41.

latest development, she feels it is time to speak out. We've got to do

:39:42.:39:45.

it by Linda's sake and my parents, and anyone in the same position. We

:39:46.:39:52.

can't just forget it. Joining me now from our Westminster

:39:53.:39:55.

studio is Simon Creighton, a lawyer specialising in prison law. Why

:39:56.:40:00.

should prisoners be given compensation? It is important to

:40:01.:40:08.

stand back and look what these cases are about. It was made very clear in

:40:09.:40:14.

the judgement of the court that the case was not primarily about

:40:15.:40:18.

obtaining compensation. The case was about the prisoner arguing he should

:40:19.:40:22.

be given the opportunity to reform himself and to address the dangerous

:40:23.:40:26.

aspects of his behaviour that resulted in his offending. In some

:40:27.:40:32.

ways, it is sad the victim was my family have to be dragged through

:40:33.:40:36.

this process again simply because the state has failed to provide the

:40:37.:40:42.

mechanisms that it guarantees will be offered to prisoners so they can

:40:43.:40:47.

reform themselves. They wouldn't have to be dragged through this, as

:40:48.:40:51.

they put it, if it didn't seem that some people have access to get these

:40:52.:40:57.

compensation claims. We are all humans, but some seem to be better

:40:58.:41:07.

protected than others. If you lock somebody up, once you have locked

:41:08.:41:11.

that person up, do you just want to shut the door, throw away the key

:41:12.:41:17.

and forget about them? The way our Criminal Justice Act is organised

:41:18.:41:21.

has never been on that basis, it has always been on the basis that part

:41:22.:41:26.

of the purpose of prisons is to enhance the protection of the public

:41:27.:41:29.

by helping people to reform and change. What about the rights of the

:41:30.:41:38.

victims? It is unhelpful and unfair to set the two in opposition. If you

:41:39.:41:42.

speak to most victims of crime, one thing they want to happen is when

:41:43.:41:48.

people are put in prison, prison genuinely reforms that person.

:41:49.:41:52.

Prison has a role to play in the future protection of society by

:41:53.:41:57.

making sure people come out as law`abiding citizens with respect

:41:58.:42:02.

for authority. I don't think it is really right to see the two things

:42:03.:42:05.

in opposition to each other. They are part of the same political

:42:06.:42:12.

perspective of upholding the law and trying to prevent crime in the

:42:13.:42:17.

future. It is a difficult thing for the public to debate though, isn't

:42:18.:42:21.

it? We have a large prison population and that is because

:42:22.:42:23.

people would rather not think about this a lot of the time. I think that

:42:24.:42:30.

is true. Recently, we saw David Blunkett, who oversaw the faster six

:42:31.:42:35.

mansion of our prison system at any time, admitting that his system was

:42:36.:42:46.

flawed and it created injustices. `` the fastest expansion of our system.

:42:47.:42:52.

I think it would be helpful if politicians would step back and

:42:53.:42:55.

debate these issues genuinely rather than looking for an easy way to hate

:42:56.:42:59.

what might be classed as vulnerable groups. Mr Price, we are spending

:43:00.:43:10.

?40,000 the year on prisoners, we had the largest prison population in

:43:11.:43:14.

western Europe. Are we failing everybody involved? Well, the

:43:15.:43:21.

important thing is that they should be seen as we `` rehabilitated as

:43:22.:43:28.

part of that process. Otherwise that is a waste of money. If you put

:43:29.:43:39.

somebody in for a very long time, the rehabilitation process needs to

:43:40.:43:42.

take place during that period said that ultimately they can be

:43:43.:43:46.

released. Otherwise it is that large expense and of no great benefit to

:43:47.:43:53.

anybody. Countries have very different sentencing policies.

:43:54.:44:00.

Scotland is a different system again. It seems to me there is a

:44:01.:44:07.

duty to the state to provide habilitation so that when people

:44:08.:44:12.

come out they are safe. But it seems obscene, the idea that we would be

:44:13.:44:17.

paying compensation to people from taxpayers' money. That just does not

:44:18.:44:23.

seem right at all. Everybody has rights though. And we subscribe to a

:44:24.:44:29.

European standard for these rights. You are absolutely right, but your

:44:30.:44:32.

rights are limited if you commit crime and you are locked up. You

:44:33.:44:39.

lose your privity `` privacy. So there are different standards for

:44:40.:44:45.

something. Simon, you accept that point, don't you? There are

:44:46.:44:51.

different standards, but where you talk about the right to liberty, you

:44:52.:44:56.

are wrong to take the approach that someone should not be entitled to

:44:57.:44:59.

compensation ever if they are locked up. If the state says your crime

:45:00.:45:04.

deserves three years and you served ten years, is there a reason in

:45:05.:45:08.

principle why the person should not have compensation for the extra

:45:09.:45:13.

seven years? Thank you. Now, if you were watching last week,

:45:14.:45:16.

you'll know that we kicked off our coverage of the European elections

:45:17.:45:19.

by taking the Eurostar to Brussels to talk to MEPs from the five

:45:20.:45:22.

parties with representation in our region. Over the next five weeks

:45:23.:45:25.

we'll be hearing from all of them ` last week it was the Liberal

:45:26.:45:28.

Democrats, today it's the Conservatives. What you want is

:45:29.:45:36.

somebody at the table who is part of that negotiation, who is strongly

:45:37.:45:40.

supporting you, he's really got the interest of Britain at heart, and is

:45:41.:45:52.

not here to set on the sidelines. Julie is the spokesman for the party

:45:53.:45:56.

on agriculture and says the last five years have seen British members

:45:57.:46:00.

of the European Parliament having more influence on policy than ever

:46:01.:46:07.

before. I sit on the fishing committee and I've been very

:46:08.:46:10.

involved in a campaign to form a common fisheries policy. It is

:46:11.:46:14.

incredibly important, especially for small fishermen, the under tens and

:46:15.:46:23.

under 15 that we have in Weymouth, that they are not left out of

:46:24.:46:28.

negotiations. In the past, they have been all about the big Spanish and

:46:29.:46:35.

Scottish fleets. We have an awful situation of throwing stuff away

:46:36.:46:40.

that is good to eat. We had a lot of support for this campaign. All those

:46:41.:46:45.

tens of thousands of people who signed up to petitions and

:46:46.:46:50.

campaigns, that gives us some elbow here in Parliament. So did those

:46:51.:46:54.

people who got in touch with you, did they engage in this place in a

:46:55.:47:00.

way that perhaps surprised them? One thing which has changed in the time

:47:01.:47:06.

I've been here is we have more power now. The Lisbon Treaty took over,

:47:07.:47:11.

and that means that in fishing, for example, all those decisions were

:47:12.:47:17.

made by the member state government. But the Conservatives have less

:47:18.:47:26.

influence here. No, we have more. That is absolutely not the case. You

:47:27.:47:33.

are in a much smaller room with splinter organisations. There was a

:47:34.:47:42.

lot of publicity at the beginning. I personally was worried about some

:47:43.:47:46.

people, but I'm not any more. So what would you say who your

:47:47.:47:49.

constituency say they are now going to vote for UKIP to make a point. I

:47:50.:47:59.

say that is a waste of vote. Not in the European Union, it is a

:48:00.:48:05.

representative vote. Well, then you have a UKIP MEP and what do they do?

:48:06.:48:09.

They come here and they shout and they are rude to people. And all

:48:10.:48:14.

that does is put people off wanting to deal with the bits. Back at the

:48:15.:48:23.

Brits. And yet they are a big threat. David Cameron does not have

:48:24.:48:30.

to pretend to be UKIP. That would be the worst thing. The more you say,

:48:31.:48:36.

yeah, OK, we will go more to the right and be more like UKIP, that is

:48:37.:48:42.

a dangerous road. The Conservative Party has a very strong, very easily

:48:43.:48:47.

understandable policy on Europe. Renegotiate, have a referendum, let

:48:48.:48:51.

the people decide. That is our policy.

:48:52.:48:57.

And over the next few weeks we'll be hearing in turn from UKIP, Labour

:48:58.:49:01.

and the Green Party. Next month we'll also be voting in

:49:02.:49:05.

local elections in some of our councils. Two of those happen to be

:49:06.:49:13.

Portsmouth and Oxford. Mr Price, half of your council is up at the

:49:14.:49:18.

election. Still no Conservatives. We haven't had a conservative on the

:49:19.:49:23.

council until 1998. The debate has been much more civilised as a

:49:24.:49:28.

consequence. You have eight Liberal Democrats who are up for election

:49:29.:49:35.

this time. And two greens. With the Lib Dems, do people have to make a

:49:36.:49:39.

choice at this election is whether they forgive them for their part in

:49:40.:49:43.

national government, would you say? Would be see them as different at a

:49:44.:49:52.

local level? There is a definite differentiation at a local level.

:49:53.:49:55.

There has been a very strong focus on local issues and the reasons why

:49:56.:50:00.

the Lib Dems have done well in North Oxford is because they have looked

:50:01.:50:07.

after nor the Oxford `` North Yorks that very well. They've done well to

:50:08.:50:19.

maintain that over the years. In local elections and by`elections,

:50:20.:50:23.

Lib Dems do seem to have done well. But nationally it is not going to be

:50:24.:50:28.

like that. You can argue as much as you like about national policy, but

:50:29.:50:32.

there is Nick Clegg. And there will be a debate when there is a national

:50:33.:50:36.

election about whether it was right for us to go into coalition and save

:50:37.:50:40.

the country from a Tory only government. I think it was the right

:50:41.:50:43.

thing to do. Just think what they would have done if they were left on

:50:44.:50:48.

their own. There would be the investment in providing educational

:50:49.:50:51.

support for kids from underprivileged backgrounds. It was

:50:52.:51:01.

removed by Mrs Thatcher and brought back by this government. Do you

:51:02.:51:06.

think people really believe that? Beezer joint decisions. With the

:51:07.:51:12.

Tories really have been lifting the low paid out of tax by raising the

:51:13.:51:17.

tax threshold? Nope. They would have been helping the rich by reducing

:51:18.:51:20.

the rate of tax for the very rich even further. Let me remind you your

:51:21.:51:29.

leader came to Oxford and promised that there would be no increase in

:51:30.:51:33.

fees and immediately went into government and raised fees

:51:34.:51:38.

dramatically. I think that will play heavily with the student vote in

:51:39.:51:43.

Oxford. He was mugged by the Conservatives and I'm sorry. He

:51:44.:51:47.

shouldn't have said so. He said sorry as well. Nobody believes him.

:51:48.:51:55.

He shouldn't have done it. My MP voted not to change it. He signed

:51:56.:52:01.

something any gap to his word. Will people see it differently when they

:52:02.:52:03.

get in next May and there have to vote on who they want to form the

:52:04.:52:09.

next government? I think the local issues will be less important and

:52:10.:52:13.

these issues you are raising about broken promises from the Lib Dems,

:52:14.:52:16.

about the way the Tories are handling the economy, they will be

:52:17.:52:20.

at the forefront. And we cannot discount the UKIP effect. Do you

:52:21.:52:28.

think it will carry over? In the national election, we know that

:52:29.:52:32.

people vote on both local issues and national issues. For some it is just

:52:33.:52:35.

about national, for some it is local, and the summit is both. In

:52:36.:52:41.

Portsmouth, there has been troubled. Can you shrug that off by May? Both

:52:42.:52:47.

elections we've had have been after the coalition came in and they've

:52:48.:52:50.

been our most successful ever. I hope that will continue. I think

:52:51.:52:54.

people have seen the transformation of the city over the last ten years.

:52:55.:52:59.

Portsmouth is a much better city and people recognise that. Certainly

:53:00.:53:07.

true of Oxford as well, a long period of Labour control and it has

:53:08.:53:11.

been a good period indeed. I think people will recognise that and give

:53:12.:53:14.

us the votes for it. Now our regular round`up of the

:53:15.:53:17.

political week in the South in 60 seconds.

:53:18.:53:31.

The great Western mainline's ?700 million electrification will be

:53:32.:53:34.

finished in two years. This week, the deal was signed to provide the

:53:35.:53:39.

power. The HS2 became HS2 plus with plans

:53:40.:53:42.

to accelerate northern stages of construction.

:53:43.:53:50.

This train is not so high speed. They want the privately owned train

:53:51.:53:54.

to be replaced by nearly a century. I cannot for the life of me see how

:53:55.:53:57.

they are going to improve on something which has been running for

:53:58.:54:01.

45 years. Southampton council is making

:54:02.:54:05.

?45,000 a month for evening parking charges, but businesses say it is

:54:06.:54:09.

hitting their trade. The AA criticised plans to bring in

:54:10.:54:14.

variable speed limits as the hard shoulder disappears along more than

:54:15.:54:23.

30 miles of the M3 and M4. Meanwhile, there are plans for 4000

:54:24.:54:27.

homes in Oxford. A new ring road will be needed.

:54:28.:54:34.

Infrastructure is so overloaded, isn't it? They are saying people

:54:35.:54:40.

commuting to London will have to start queueing on the platforms

:54:41.:54:44.

because the trains are full and before HS2 arrives that will be the

:54:45.:54:54.

case. It is the reality already at Oxford station. It is very crowded.

:54:55.:55:01.

Certainly the addition of the line will be a huge benefit to Oxford.

:55:02.:55:06.

The roads are harming businesses, aren't they? It was a focal point in

:55:07.:55:13.

our city bid. We have a couple of disaster zones in terms of traffic

:55:14.:55:17.

and we have real problems in Oxford and Banbury in terms of access. Have

:55:18.:55:24.

we left this investment too late? Absolutely. But governments of all

:55:25.:55:29.

colours over the last ten years have not invested in this area. They

:55:30.:55:33.

haven't recognised that we in the south are the heart of this

:55:34.:55:37.

country. We create the wealth that is spent around the rest of the

:55:38.:55:41.

country. There needs to be better investment in our road and rail. If

:55:42.:55:44.

we were in the northern counties, we would have better roads and rails.

:55:45.:55:50.

The average speed from London to Portsmouth on the row way is 45

:55:51.:55:54.

miles an hour. That would not be tolerated in the North of England.

:55:55.:55:58.

But governments of all colours have failed to invest in the south`east

:55:59.:56:03.

and that is not right. That is the end of our discussion, thank you for

:56:04.:56:08.

coming in. Don't forget to keep up`to`date with southern politics by

:56:09.:56:10.

reading my blog ` there's the address at the bottom of the screen.

:56:11.:56:12.

For now though it's back to Andrew. decision, she will weigh up the

:56:13.:56:23.

The big news is the popular server is struggling to control all of the

:56:24.:56:39.

people who want to find out where they fit in the political spectrum.

:56:40.:56:44.

It hasn't quite crashed but it is queueing up those people. Who would

:56:45.:56:49.

have thought the Sunday Politics had so many viewers? It has never

:56:50.:56:59.

happened on the X factor. This morning's papers don't make

:57:00.:57:01.

comfortable reading for Labour with two separate polls showing the

:57:02.:57:04.

party's lead over the Tories is down to just one point. And there's been

:57:05.:57:07.

plenty of criticism of Ed Miliband's response to the Budget. Let's take a

:57:08.:57:11.

look. You know you are in trouble when even the Education Secretary

:57:12.:57:14.

calls you and out of touch bunch of elitist. Where is he? He is hiding!

:57:15.:57:26.

I think he has been consigned to the naughty step by the Prime Minister.

:57:27.:57:33.

The naughty step! And we're joined now by shadow chief secretary to the

:57:34.:57:38.

Treasury, Chris Leslie. There was a widely criticised response by Ed

:57:39.:57:42.

Balls to the Autumn Statement, now a widely criticised response by Ed

:57:43.:57:48.

Miliband to the Budget. Does this show you are struggling at the

:57:49.:57:54.

moment? Of course Ed Balls and Ed Miliband don't want to hear the fact

:57:55.:57:59.

that in reality, for most people, life is getting harder and there is

:58:00.:58:03.

the cost of living crisis. Did we get any mention of that in the

:58:04.:58:13.

Budget? Of course we didn't. We were waiting for action on the cost of

:58:14.:58:17.

living and it wasn't forthcoming. Ed Miliband came up with the tactic of

:58:18.:58:22.

responding to the Budget without mentioning anything that was in it.

:58:23.:58:27.

He mentioned the fact the personal tax allowance was a bit of a

:58:28.:58:31.

giveaway but he takes more with the other hand. He is in favour of that,

:58:32.:58:38.

right? Anything we can get but we need a lot more. Let me tell you

:58:39.:58:42.

something else he mentioned, the fact the national debt has risen by

:58:43.:58:50.

a third and George Osborne and David Cameron... They knew that before the

:58:51.:58:54.

Budget. The borrowing figures were announced and Ed Miliband made

:58:55.:59:00.

reference to those. There is not a lot of happiness on Labour

:59:01.:59:05.

backbenchers about this, is there? And indeed not a lot of happiness in

:59:06.:59:10.

the shadow cabinet. There is concern that Ed Miliband is on a journey to

:59:11.:59:15.

remodel world capitalism whilst George Osborne is firing some love

:59:16.:59:19.

bombs at Middle England by talking about freeing up the pensions market

:59:20.:59:23.

and there is real nerves that what Ed Miliband is saying is not going

:59:24.:59:28.

to be in tune with those middle income earners that the Labour Party

:59:29.:59:34.

has got to attract if they are going to win the general election. When

:59:35.:59:41.

Rachel Reeves used the medium of Radio 4 to announce you were broadly

:59:42.:59:45.

in favour of the pension reforms announced by the Chancellor on

:59:46.:59:49.

Friday night, was that a result of a decision taken by the shadow

:59:50.:59:59.

cabinet? Is With annuities, they are a very old-fashioned product. There

:00:00.:00:06.

are some serious questions which need to be addressed. Was that the

:00:07.:00:13.

result of a Shadow Cabinet decision? We have not had a Shadow

:00:14.:00:17.

Cabinet since the budget. We all want to make sure that we understand

:00:18.:00:22.

the point about flexibility. No one is arguing with that. There are some

:00:23.:00:27.

serious concerns. Let me give you a couple of examples. This is

:00:28.:00:30.

something the Chancellor has done, he claims, for reasons of freedom

:00:31.:00:35.

and flexibility. Is it a coincidence he is grabbing quite a lot of tax

:00:36.:00:39.

from pensioners early on to plug a hole which is necessary because the

:00:40.:00:47.

deficit has not gone down? Forgive me for being slightly cynical about

:00:48.:00:53.

motives. For or against it? We need to have safeguards for protection of

:00:54.:00:57.

pensioners. What will it do for the annuity market if most people still

:00:58.:01:01.

want to have a steadying come for a third of their lives? -- steady

:01:02.:01:09.

income. What does Labour have to do to get it show back on the road? The

:01:10.:01:18.

question is, how do people feel? How many people will still not be

:01:19.:01:22.

feeling better by the next election? Wages may be rising slightly but not

:01:23.:01:25.

for a large and significant number of people. They were just looking at

:01:26.:01:30.

the YouGov poll. If you look at the middle to low earners, they are

:01:31.:01:34.

overwhelmingly pro-labour. Can Labour get those people out to vote?

:01:35.:01:39.

They are really hurting. There are plenty of them. The question is

:01:40.:01:43.

whether people are optimistic because they see figures as if they

:01:44.:01:48.

look as if they are on the up or whether they vote according to how

:01:49.:01:53.

they feel, which will still be very far behind. Cost of living has been

:01:54.:01:58.

a major mantra from Labour. That's that this chart shows how things are

:01:59.:02:03.

beginning to change. What this shows is that, sometime this year, after a

:02:04.:02:09.

long time at which average earnings trailed inflation, they now overtake

:02:10.:02:13.

it in the run-up to the election and they stay there for the forecast

:02:14.:02:20.

period. What do you now do if your cost of living mantra is running out

:02:21.:02:26.

of steam? I am not sure that, for most people, they will recognise the

:02:27.:02:30.

sense that suddenly things will be getting better. Particularly the

:02:31.:02:33.

younger generation are really feeling quite down about the

:02:34.:02:39.

pressures they are facing to make ends meet. You can see the lines are

:02:40.:02:46.

exaggerated because the Y axis on the side starts quite high up. It

:02:47.:02:51.

does not start at zero. The other statistic from the OBR is that we

:02:52.:02:55.

will not be getting back to the point where wages are exceeding

:02:56.:02:59.

prices from the pre-banking crisis period until late 2017. There are

:03:00.:03:07.

some really serious pressures that people are under. What they wanted

:03:08.:03:11.

was a budget that would address concerns and, for the vast majority

:03:12.:03:16.

of people, they will have heard the statement by George Osborne and

:03:17.:03:22.

think, how is it really help them now? It did not address it. It is

:03:23.:03:30.

clear that by 2015, average living standards will probably not have

:03:31.:03:35.

returned to where they were in 2010. Average wages will not have

:03:36.:03:39.

done that. On the other hand, the chart shows the sense of direction

:03:40.:03:43.

is moving in the right way. Which one matters more with the

:03:44.:03:49.

electorate? I suspect it is sense of direction. People sense of

:03:50.:03:52.

prosperity does not need to be buoyant. It has to be something

:03:53.:03:57.

worth preserving. We have to fear the all turn. That is what intrigued

:03:58.:04:03.

me this week. People make too much of a fuss about the Parliamentary

:04:04.:04:07.

response by Ed Miliband. People will forgive a bad day at the dispatch

:04:08.:04:12.

box. What they will not forgive is the absence of a macro economic

:04:13.:04:19.

mess. Labour have a very powerful message on living standards and lots

:04:20.:04:24.

of popular, targeted interventions like the energy price freeze. You

:04:25.:04:30.

can imagine they will be sufficiently nervous about that next

:04:31.:04:35.

year. If living standards are not back to where they were, Labour can

:04:36.:04:43.

say, are you better off now than when you were four years ago? The

:04:44.:04:51.

reason why break and -- wallowed waken one that is because Jimmy

:04:52.:05:03.

Carter mucked it up -- Ronald Reagan. Labour have to say, vote for

:05:04.:05:11.

us and you will get 2 million homes. At the moment, the offer is very

:05:12.:05:15.

modest. You need to find the money to do that. People need to

:05:16.:05:19.

understand that housing is at the very heart of the economy, as well

:05:20.:05:23.

as young people and their aspirations. At the moment, Labour

:05:24.:05:30.

's offer is not spectacular in. If the focus group shows the cost of

:05:31.:05:33.

living crisis have no longer has the attraction it did, what line do you

:05:34.:05:39.

move onto? Yellow McCoy must remind people of the wasted years and the

:05:40.:05:41.

cost of living pressures they have been under. -- we must remind

:05:42.:05:49.

people. We want a recovery which has low growth, low wage. A race to the

:05:50.:05:58.

bottom. They want a recovery that is felt by everyone, shared and felt by

:05:59.:06:04.

all. Now, here's an idea to twist your melon. Mark Berry, better known

:06:05.:06:09.

as Bez, it says here he's a member of something called The Happy

:06:10.:06:11.

Mondays, wants to stand for parliament. He's best known for

:06:12.:06:15.

being in a band, and not doing very much, so he might fit in. Here he is

:06:16.:06:20.

in action. And Bez joins us from our Salford

:06:21.:06:48.

studio. Good to see you. Is this a genuine candidacy or are you

:06:49.:06:56.

twisting my melon? Amazing how time flies when you're having fun! You

:06:57.:07:05.

having fun doing this candidacy? I am doing the job of the politicians

:07:06.:07:09.

and standing up for the people and bringing attention to the horror of

:07:10.:07:15.

fracking, which is a totally unsafe technology. There is no one in

:07:16.:07:19.

mainstream politics who is discussing or saying anything about

:07:20.:07:24.

it. It is an unsafe technology and it has been proven in America. You

:07:25.:07:29.

see the process in America and the people out on the streets. The whole

:07:30.:07:39.

atmosphere has been made toxic. These people are allowing it to

:07:40.:07:44.

happen in the name of profit. This has been a Labour seat you are

:07:45.:07:50.

fighting in Salford since 1945. It is a tough mountain. Supposing you

:07:51.:07:55.

were to win, could you ever see yourself entering a coalition? With

:07:56.:08:02.

a bit of luck I may be able to shame Labour politicians to do the job

:08:03.:08:05.

properly and stand up for the rights of people. They are not and I am

:08:06.:08:09.

having to do that job. All I am doing is causing debate and bringing

:08:10.:08:15.

to attention the horror that is hanging on our doorsteps. It is not

:08:16.:08:19.

only fracking but GM modified foods that they want to bring into this

:08:20.:08:24.

country as well. Owen Paterson is one of the main lobbyists. Lobbying

:08:25.:08:32.

is legalised bribery, by the way. It is run by the bankers. Basically, we

:08:33.:08:38.

have to stop these monsters from getting into our country and turning

:08:39.:08:42.

our land into a toxic waste. That is what I am trying to say. You are

:08:43.:08:48.

raising the debate, as you are doing with us here. We do not really need

:08:49.:08:54.

fracking. You have done that and you have talked about other things as

:08:55.:08:59.

well. In terms of a new integrity, if you were to become an MP, would

:09:00.:09:06.

you claim expenses? If I ever do get in charge, I would completely enter

:09:07.:09:10.

the banking system and there would be expensive, but they would be like

:09:11.:09:15.

bus passes and train passes. You behave like the people and you are

:09:16.:09:19.

in touch with the people, you move with the people and do understand

:09:20.:09:24.

what the people want. You do not live in acre Kuhn of your own making

:09:25.:09:28.

of luxury, wealth and total disregard of everyone else. -- a

:09:29.:09:36.

cocoon. If you did get into the Palace of Westminster and had to

:09:37.:09:39.

mingle with all these people, who would you rather have in night out

:09:40.:09:45.

with - Mr Cameron, Mr Miller band or Mr Clegg? I would be willing to

:09:46.:09:54.

discuss politics with anybody. I would make them realise what they

:09:55.:10:02.

are doing. I am glad too have a debate and with anyone. The people

:10:03.:10:09.

of Salford, quite a lot people people behind me. I have been

:10:10.:10:15.

speaking to Salford councillors. They are going to lend me their

:10:16.:10:23.

support. The people of Salford, and not to forget the people of Eccles,

:10:24.:10:29.

sending you much. We must stop this horror. There is a monster on our

:10:30.:10:34.

doorstep and we must stop it, people. Do not forget to take your

:10:35.:10:40.

maracas on campaign trail. Would you like a pair to shake yourself? You

:10:41.:10:48.

shake your maracas against fracking! Thanks, Bez, goodbye. Thank you for

:10:49.:10:54.

giving me a little platform to express my views. Now if there's one

:10:55.:11:01.

thing that gets us hot under the collar here at the Sunday Politics

:11:02.:11:03.

it's European elections. The only thing we like more than the

:11:04.:11:06.

elections themselves is a TV debate about them. And we're in luck! Take

:11:07.:11:11.

a look at this. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome leader of

:11:12.:11:14.

the Liberal Democrats and Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. Gives

:11:15.:11:22.

the most fantastic welcome to Nigel Farage. I would challenge Nigel

:11:23.:11:30.

Farage to a public, open debate, about whether she we should be out

:11:31.:11:37.

all in of the European Union. I will do it for Nick Clegg. Since 2009, I

:11:38.:11:48.

have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament. Nigel

:11:49.:11:55.

Farage has not tabled a single amendment since July 2009. Mr Clegg

:11:56.:12:02.

has only taken part in 22% of votes in the House of commons. You can

:12:03.:12:10.

watch the debate at 7pm on the 2nd of April over on BBC Two. And for a

:12:11.:12:22.

chance to be part of the studio audience on the night and put your

:12:23.:12:25.

question to the two party leaders, e-mail the question you'd like to

:12:26.:12:28.

ask to [email protected] or tweet it using the hashtag

:12:29.:12:30.

#europedebate. And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage will be limbering up

:12:31.:12:34.

this week with their first debate on LBC radio on Wednesday. Who is going

:12:35.:12:42.

to come out the best? I suspect Nigel Farage. It is easy to portray

:12:43.:12:47.

Nick Clegg as morally compromised, who has not asserted himself in

:12:48.:12:52.

government. I do wonder about Nigel Farage, whether he is much better at

:12:53.:12:57.

delivering a popular line and responding to the second question of

:12:58.:13:02.

third question. Nick Clegg will win it hands over fist because he knows

:13:03.:13:06.

this stuff. He is right. The evidence that he can produce about

:13:07.:13:10.

what will happen if we pulled out of Europe will, I think, overwhelm

:13:11.:13:18.

Nigel Farage 's one-liners. They will both be winners because you

:13:19.:13:25.

will have the rare sight of the pro-European saying he likes the

:13:26.:13:29.

European Union. That is unlike Eurosceptics who tie themselves up

:13:30.:13:35.

in knots. 14 Nigel, one for Nick and one for both. There you go. Here is

:13:36.:13:48.

a mess, it is Janen Ganesh. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is

:13:49.:13:52.

on BBC Two at Lunchtime every day this week, I'll be back here next

:13:53.:13:55.

week with Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the

:13:56.:13:57.

Sunday Politics.

:13:58.:14:03.

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