30/03/2014 Sunday Politics South


30/03/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

:00:42.:00:45.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

:00:46.:00:50.

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

:00:51.:00:52.

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

:00:53.:00:58.

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

:00:59.:01:00.

They could be heading In the South: The crisis in

:01:01.:01:06.

temporary sites for travellers. Dorset has taken three years to

:01:07.:01:10.

produce just one ` will we see even more illegal encampments this

:01:11.:01:11.

summer? which runs the capital's Fire

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Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his

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critics. And with me, as always, the most

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useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually

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obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our

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chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a

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plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be

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tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the

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Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be

:01:53.:01:56.

no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent

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Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't

:02:01.:02:03.

necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were

:02:04.:02:09.

delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.

:02:10.:02:14.

The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already

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beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's

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speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary

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Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal

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Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a

:02:34.:02:38.

sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something

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of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice

:02:49.:02:53.

played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an

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unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for

:03:00.:03:04.

certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union

:03:05.:03:07.

actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any

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big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly

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named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the

:03:16.:03:18.

Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, outlining all the

:03:19.:03:22.

reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you

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have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury

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himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never

:03:31.:03:34.

advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other

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and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much

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against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All

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the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating

:03:50.:03:52.

with a new independent Scotland, a deal is to be done, Faslane where

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the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that

:03:58.:04:02.

is, certainly not for the next 20 years, a deal would be done, the

:04:03.:04:06.

nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a

:04:07.:04:09.

monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible,

:04:10.:04:14.

isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is

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more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear

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advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic

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best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland, any

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more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put

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the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes

:04:41.:04:48.

when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a

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problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.

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But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently

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promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to

:05:01.:05:03.

remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious

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mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got

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you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as

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running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are

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narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.

:05:29.:05:31.

This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the

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polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as

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part of the United Kingdom. Yes, there were a couple of polls last

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week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of

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all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting

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intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of

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people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed

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to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to

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remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a

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yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew

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towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if

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your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking

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into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not

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impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely

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the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole

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argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy

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lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen. It

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can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least

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because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the

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amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will

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be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social

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media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we

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have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as

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theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave

:07:27.:07:31.

you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think

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they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the

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agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if

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there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold

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of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,

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when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there

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was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is

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still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after

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the 18th of September this year, not just the next day but the next

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year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,

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when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked

:08:20.:08:22.

about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to

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get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be

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on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think

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that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his

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word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with

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giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or

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having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they

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have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there

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is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his

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story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence, of

:09:03.:09:06.

course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in

:09:07.:09:11.

London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with

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Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop

:09:14.:09:21.

another country using its. That is different. All London can really do

:09:22.:09:29.

is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The

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interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.

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Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out

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of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's

:09:43.:09:47.

financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of

:09:48.:09:50.

injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial

:09:51.:09:54.

crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it

:09:55.:09:58.

not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the

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Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign

:10:02.:10:05.

which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the

:10:06.:10:08.

resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists

:10:09.:10:13.

having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in

:10:14.:10:18.

the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that

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he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a

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bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The

:10:28.:10:32.

polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going

:10:33.:10:40.

their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the

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gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The

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plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better

:10:53.:10:55.

Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they

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get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London

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Police say, give us a couple of million.

:11:03.:11:05.

Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when

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North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey

:11:10.:11:17.

has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have

:11:18.:11:24.

been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95% of

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the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit

:11:31.:11:34.

coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation

:11:35.:11:39.

by the competition and markets authorities which will look at

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whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave

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investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not

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spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home

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might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the

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generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's

:12:01.:12:05.

night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016,

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according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to

:12:12.:12:15.

2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of

:12:16.:12:21.

candles. Now where is that light switch?

:12:22.:12:24.

Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light

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switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating

:12:33.:12:37.

capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We

:12:38.:12:44.

will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy

:12:45.:12:48.

investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal

:12:49.:12:53.

with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up

:12:54.:12:59.

massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a

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record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing

:13:06.:13:10.

it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment

:13:11.:13:13.

massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights

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on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing

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anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we

:13:21.:13:27.

have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We

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have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will

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come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that

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we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have

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one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having

:13:50.:13:54.

major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The

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figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.

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Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from

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interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are

:14:09.:14:13.

able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a

:14:14.:14:19.

mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on

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that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to

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under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our

:14:32.:14:38.

plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it

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would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply

:14:44.:14:48.

who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our

:14:49.:14:55.

plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to

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come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of

:15:01.:15:03.

power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.

:15:04.:15:05.

There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we

:15:06.:15:10.

are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.

:15:11.:15:15.

We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction

:15:16.:15:20.

for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned

:15:21.:15:34.

lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries

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so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I

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am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000

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megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost

:15:50.:15:56.

22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power

:15:57.:16:01.

supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those

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figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power

:16:04.:16:07.

plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,

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nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but

:16:12.:16:15.

we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to

:16:16.:16:21.

date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare

:16:22.:16:25.

capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour

:16:26.:16:30.

Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing

:16:31.:16:33.

significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also

:16:34.:16:37.

remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at

:16:38.:16:42.

15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average

:16:43.:16:49.

margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since

:16:50.:16:54.

privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high

:16:55.:16:57.

margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have

:16:58.:17:03.

historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make

:17:04.:17:08.

sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described

:17:09.:17:12.

to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term

:17:13.:17:16.

policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,

:17:17.:17:38.

policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the

:17:39.:17:44.

chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.

:17:45.:17:49.

What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they

:17:50.:17:57.

would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been

:17:58.:18:02.

working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a

:18:03.:18:06.

reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best

:18:07.:18:10.

not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk

:18:11.:18:17.

about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are

:18:18.:18:20.

prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for

:18:21.:18:25.

them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to

:18:26.:18:29.

off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that

:18:30.:18:32.

something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these

:18:33.:18:36.

contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of

:18:37.:18:41.

diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range

:18:42.:18:47.

of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed

:18:48.:18:54.

gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent

:18:55.:19:03.

generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building

:19:04.:19:07.

a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy

:19:08.:19:13.

situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now

:19:14.:19:16.

and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable

:19:17.:19:21.

targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition

:19:22.:19:24.

commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will

:19:25.:19:28.

see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent

:19:29.:19:33.

generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from

:19:34.:19:40.

the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that

:19:41.:19:44.

company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies

:19:45.:19:49.

wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say

:19:50.:19:52.

Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We

:19:53.:19:56.

are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for

:19:57.:19:59.

renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power

:20:00.:20:04.

stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse

:20:05.:20:08.

is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say

:20:09.:20:14.

that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas

:20:15.:20:19.

plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch

:20:20.:20:22.

for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the

:20:23.:20:27.

pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment

:20:28.:20:30.

including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're

:20:31.:20:32.

talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The

:20:33.:20:39.

balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the

:20:40.:20:43.

mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new

:20:44.:20:47.

power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't

:20:48.:20:53.

answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of

:20:54.:20:56.

this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said

:20:57.:21:02.

permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to

:21:03.:21:06.

do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's

:21:07.:21:11.

very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations.

:21:12.:21:14.

That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent

:21:15.:21:18.

plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term

:21:19.:21:24.

investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the

:21:25.:21:29.

end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your

:21:30.:21:33.

painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how

:21:34.:21:37.

you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive

:21:38.:21:42.

sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a

:21:43.:21:49.

deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012

:21:50.:21:52.

prices. All of that puts up our bills. First

:21:53.:22:09.

of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has

:22:10.:22:14.

been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas

:22:15.:22:18.

prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future

:22:19.:22:23.

-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,

:22:24.:22:26.

many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come

:22:27.:22:30.

online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You

:22:31.:22:34.

have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from

:22:35.:22:40.

this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been

:22:41.:22:47.

going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not

:22:48.:22:51.

recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but

:22:52.:22:55.

more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but

:22:56.:22:59.

it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In

:23:00.:23:05.

those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep

:23:06.:23:08.

price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If

:23:09.:23:13.

gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear

:23:14.:23:18.

and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that

:23:19.:23:23.

power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on

:23:24.:23:27.

this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of

:23:28.:23:32.

offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%

:23:33.:23:37.

in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,

:23:38.:23:43.

it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control

:23:44.:23:47.

framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,

:23:48.:23:54.

Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new

:23:55.:24:03.

factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are

:24:04.:24:09.

saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked

:24:10.:24:12.

about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would

:24:13.:24:17.

come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone

:24:18.:24:22.

higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in

:24:23.:24:27.

the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a

:24:28.:24:32.

few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two

:24:33.:24:37.

years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will

:24:38.:24:40.

come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this

:24:41.:24:44.

example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with,

:24:45.:24:48.

they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down

:24:49.:24:57.

for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation

:24:58.:25:03.

because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal

:25:04.:25:06.

with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15%

:25:07.:25:13.

every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your

:25:14.:25:17.

energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are

:25:18.:25:20.

talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you

:25:21.:25:25.

quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's

:25:26.:25:31.

the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,

:25:32.:25:34.

dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the

:25:35.:25:40.

retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low

:25:41.:25:47.

return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.

:25:48.:25:52.

Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right

:25:53.:25:56.

party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so

:25:57.:26:00.

long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be

:26:01.:26:03.

speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first

:26:04.:26:06.

here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment

:26:07.:26:09.

in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at

:26:10.:26:12.

their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They

:26:13.:26:16.

already were the second largest party in a London council and had a

:26:17.:26:20.

London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties

:26:21.:26:30.

their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring

:26:31.:26:34.

success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded

:26:35.:26:37.

and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty

:26:38.:26:42.

retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that

:26:43.:26:44.

retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of

:26:45.:26:53.

those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were

:26:54.:26:57.

performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller

:26:58.:27:01.

parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they

:27:02.:27:04.

didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the

:27:05.:27:08.

middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities

:27:09.:27:13.

for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the

:27:14.:27:17.

outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 2006 in

:27:18.:27:21.

Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop

:27:22.:27:24.

of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking

:27:25.:27:26.

up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's

:27:27.:27:36.

because of all the different nationality people moving in the

:27:37.:27:38.

area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived

:27:39.:27:43.

there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,

:27:44.:27:50.

they will get elected over here. When I came to Barking, Dagenham and

:27:51.:27:56.

Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the

:27:57.:27:59.

local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now

:28:00.:28:04.

they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,

:28:05.:28:07.

you will find among the older white working-class population concerned

:28:08.:28:12.

that the BNP claim to represent, everyone says they are nowhere. So

:28:13.:28:17.

what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,

:28:18.:28:23.

we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of

:28:24.:28:28.

extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as

:28:29.:28:36.

she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a

:28:37.:28:39.

single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would

:28:40.:28:43.

stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2010

:28:44.:28:46.

was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to

:28:47.:28:50.

find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new

:28:51.:28:59.

political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.

:29:00.:29:01.

Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs

:29:02.:29:06.

and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,

:29:07.:29:11.

BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe

:29:12.:29:16.

that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the

:29:17.:29:19.

difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all

:29:20.:29:24.

get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP

:29:25.:29:29.

didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they

:29:30.:29:33.

will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't

:29:34.:29:38.

got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow

:29:39.:29:41.

MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this

:29:42.:29:44.

programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was

:29:45.:29:53.

after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.

:29:54.:30:08.

Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had

:30:09.:30:12.

already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was

:30:13.:30:16.

a national platform for the BNP, something they felt they had the

:30:17.:30:24.

right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment

:30:25.:30:31.

for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on

:30:32.:30:35.

national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national

:30:36.:30:39.

force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for

:30:40.:30:42.

the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.

:30:43.:30:46.

And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday

:30:47.:30:55.

Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the

:30:56.:30:59.

land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not

:31:00.:31:05.

true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect. The

:31:06.:31:10.

party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that

:31:11.:31:15.

the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly

:31:16.:31:21.

a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate

:31:22.:31:26.

to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --

:31:27.:31:38.

were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.

:31:39.:31:42.

You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or

:31:43.:31:49.

more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests

:31:50.:31:54.

and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point

:31:55.:31:59.

about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat

:32:00.:32:04.

to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have

:32:05.:32:10.

co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly

:32:11.:32:15.

had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is

:32:16.:32:20.

unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your

:32:21.:32:26.

sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see

:32:27.:32:30.

the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in

:32:31.:32:35.

decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you

:32:36.:32:45.

describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and

:32:46.:32:58.

other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking

:32:59.:33:03.

and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What

:33:04.:33:08.

Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white

:33:09.:33:12.

indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how

:33:13.:33:16.

they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well

:33:17.:33:21.

elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your

:33:22.:33:25.

party is heading for bankruptcy. No, it is not. It is over. You would

:33:26.:33:33.

like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in

:33:34.:33:38.

deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no

:33:39.:33:43.

way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then

:33:44.:33:53.

you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be

:33:54.:33:57.

annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP

:33:58.:34:05.

were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are

:34:06.:34:13.

not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in

:34:14.:34:19.

politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to

:34:20.:34:26.

speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at

:34:27.:34:30.

the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be

:34:31.:34:35.

here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying

:34:36.:34:40.

to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why

:34:41.:34:45.

can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in

:34:46.:34:53.

Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We

:34:54.:35:00.

decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.

:35:01.:35:05.

Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you

:35:06.:35:08.

cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs

:35:09.:35:15.

are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections, the

:35:16.:35:20.

problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the

:35:21.:35:24.

National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,

:35:25.:35:30.

that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and

:35:31.:35:33.

how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years

:35:34.:35:40.

ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going

:35:41.:35:44.

to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is

:35:45.:35:47.

going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems.

:35:48.:35:52.

Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with

:35:53.:35:56.

it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the

:35:57.:36:01.

weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a

:36:02.:36:06.

single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to

:36:07.:36:11.

protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were

:36:12.:36:16.

on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they

:36:17.:36:19.

could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.

:36:20.:36:22.

Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:23.:36:26.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday

:36:27.:36:31.

On today's show: Dorset's Gypsy and 20 minutes,

:36:32.:36:46.

On today's show: Dorset's Gypsy and traveller strategy has taken three

:36:47.:36:50.

years and cost over a quarter of a million pounds but so far produced

:36:51.:36:53.

only one temporary stopping site. Just this week another suggested

:36:54.:36:57.

location was rejected by locals. With the summer coming, are we going

:36:58.:37:04.

to see more illegal encampments? More on that shortly. First, let's

:37:05.:37:07.

meet the two politicians who'll be with us for the next 20 minutes.

:37:08.:37:11.

Simon Letts is the Labour leader of Southampton City Council and Louise

:37:12.:37:13.

Goldsmith is the Conservative leader of West Sussex County Council.

:37:14.:37:17.

There was a BBC survey about the changes to housing benefit and the

:37:18.:37:20.

impact it is having, the number of people who are now in arrears.

:37:21.:37:23.

Louise, the Government first of all said 30% of people would move to

:37:24.:37:30.

smaller properties. It looks now about six or 7%. Have they just not

:37:31.:37:36.

decided to move yet? We're not a housing authority. But one of the

:37:37.:37:40.

things is, in actual fact, we need some more smaller properties to move

:37:41.:37:45.

people into. So you think it is a shortage of smaller properties

:37:46.:37:48.

stopping people moving? To a degree. I think once we can get some smaller

:37:49.:37:51.

properties built, people will be able to move in and have that

:37:52.:37:54.

facility. I think that will help immensely. Is the cart not before

:37:55.:37:57.

the horse here, then? The Conservative policy, but there is

:37:58.:38:00.

nowhere for people to go? No, I think it is to drive through houses

:38:01.:38:04.

to be getting built. So you think the policy is actually going to

:38:05.:38:07.

cause those houses to be getting built? It would be one way of doing

:38:08.:38:10.

it, yes. Absolutely. Simon, how is it in Southampton? You are a housing

:38:11.:38:13.

authority. Yes, we have 1,400 tenants affected by what is called

:38:14.:38:17.

the bedroom tax. We're obviously struggling to move them to a single

:38:18.:38:20.

bedroom property because they are simply not available in our housing

:38:21.:38:24.

stock in the numbers that would be required. Traditionally, we built

:38:25.:38:31.

housing in the city for families, two and three`bedroom housing, a

:38:32.:38:33.

relatively small amount of one`bedroom housing. We knew this

:38:34.:38:38.

was going to happen. If the Government had asked us, we could

:38:39.:38:41.

have told them that. Well, you could also have built the houses, as

:38:42.:38:44.

Louise was saying, you could have started getting more suitable houses

:38:45.:38:47.

for people rather than them having empty bedrooms. Yes, the process of

:38:48.:38:52.

building houses is significantly long`term work. It cannot be put

:38:53.:38:56.

into place within the snap of your fingers by a Government minister

:38:57.:39:01.

suddenly changing policy. We would want to build affordable houses and

:39:02.:39:04.

we are committed to building one affordable house every day during

:39:05.:39:07.

our administration and we're a long way towards that. Painful situation,

:39:08.:39:10.

though, isn't it? Well, it is a very difficult situation. People are

:39:11.:39:13.

aware of what has been happening and what we're doing with the benefits.

:39:14.:39:16.

It has not suddenly leapt out from nowhere. We have been very clear

:39:17.:39:19.

about that. Right. More than 300 schools were hit in

:39:20.:39:22.

our region on Wednesday as teachers staged another one`day strike.

:39:23.:39:26.

They're protesting about Government policy on a range of issues from

:39:27.:39:28.

performance`related pay, what they see as an excessive workload, to

:39:29.:39:35.

changes to their pensions. The NUT leader Christine Blower warned there

:39:36.:39:38.

could be more action later in the year if there was no progress in

:39:39.:39:43.

negotiations with the Government. Joining us now is Amanda Martin, a

:39:44.:39:48.

Portsmouth teacher, from the NUT. This isn't the first time you have

:39:49.:39:53.

gone on strike over these issues. You are just damaging children's

:39:54.:39:55.

education here, causing huge problems for parents, and yet there

:39:56.:39:58.

doesn't seem to be any progress, no benefit. It isn't the first time we

:39:59.:40:07.

have gone strike, and when I came on the programme before, I talked about

:40:08.:40:11.

the fact that teachers go on strike as a last resort. And yes, you're

:40:12.:40:14.

doing it again. We are doing it again. How much further are you?

:40:15.:40:17.

Since the last time we went on strike, we have gained some

:40:18.:40:20.

concessions. There has been an extra 8% put back into the pensions pot,

:40:21.:40:23.

which means every teacher will get ?800 a year more for the rest of

:40:24.:40:27.

their pension years. So that is one concession we have gained. We have

:40:28.:40:30.

also gained the fact that Michael Gove released the workload survey,

:40:31.:40:33.

which showed that teachers were doing 60 hours a week, 56 hours in

:40:34.:40:38.

secondary schools. The STRB Review was released, which is a school

:40:39.:40:41.

teachers' review body, which takes recommendations from the Secretary

:40:42.:40:44.

of State. For the first time ever, they ignored almost all of them. And

:40:45.:40:49.

when you read through the paper, it says the NUT had suggested this and

:40:50.:40:52.

we gave them the research and it has gone from there. But actually, no,

:40:53.:40:56.

we haven't moved on, and that is why we went on strike. But the NASUWT

:40:57.:41:01.

felt that they didn't want to join you on the strike. And only 40% of

:41:02.:41:07.

NUT members voted on it. So 60% of your members didn't even cast a

:41:08.:41:13.

ballot. No. We haven't re`balloted since the last strike action because

:41:14.:41:16.

we're still looking at the same conditions ` workload, pay,

:41:17.:41:21.

pensions. And yes, we did have less numbers open strike this time. ``

:41:22.:41:30.

out on strike. It is the first time since the 1980s we have been on our

:41:31.:41:34.

own. And also there is a lot of intimidation. A lot of teachers feel

:41:35.:41:37.

it is distressing to go on strike. It upsets pupils and parents. But we

:41:38.:41:41.

did listen to parents last time when they said, you know, you have not

:41:42.:41:44.

engaged us. So despite 60`hour weeks, we have been out in January,

:41:45.:41:46.

February, March, weekends, doing street stalls, telling parents why

:41:47.:41:49.

we are going on strike and the changes that are happening in the

:41:50.:41:55.

campaign. Let's move across here. Part of this is about pensions. Why

:41:56.:42:00.

do you think public pensions need to be reformed, teachers' pensions? The

:42:01.:42:03.

pensions in the public sector are the last tranche of what we call

:42:04.:42:06.

defined benefit schemes. Now, for a variety of reasons, they have become

:42:07.:42:12.

very expensive. For almost everybody else in the country, they are

:42:13.:42:17.

closed. What happened in the 1990s with defined benefit schemes is the

:42:18.:42:20.

fact that Gordon Brown put the tax on the trusts and that really

:42:21.:42:29.

impacted. Then you have age, people getting a lot older. We have the

:42:30.:42:33.

demographics. That has caused a big problem on pensions. You have seen

:42:34.:42:36.

across the field a lot of defined pensions closing. So it really is

:42:37.:42:43.

bringing it into line. But if the Government wanted, if the taxpayer

:42:44.:42:45.

wanted to fund these promises which have been made, the teachers'

:42:46.:42:48.

pension scheme, one of the longest in existence since 1923, $46 billion

:42:49.:42:54.

of money has been paid in. More has been paid in than paid out. So the

:42:55.:42:58.

Government has hugely benefited from this scheme and now it does not want

:42:59.:43:02.

to honour its commitment. Well, it will have existing commitments to

:43:03.:43:05.

continue and it is. It is defined benefits. It is the only scheme

:43:06.:43:08.

around that you know you're going to get a set percentage of the earnings

:43:09.:43:13.

you have made. That is a very expensive and a very big guarantee.

:43:14.:43:16.

Would you like to see that change for other public sector employees?

:43:17.:43:19.

In Sussex County Council? I think there are going to be discussions

:43:20.:43:22.

around all of these pensions in the future. Simon Letts, do you still

:43:23.:43:25.

pay defined benefits? Yes. Southampton City Council is part of

:43:26.:43:28.

the Hampshire pensions scheme, which is different from the teachers'

:43:29.:43:31.

scheme, because it is based on investing into the pot which is then

:43:32.:43:37.

invested in the wider economy. The teachers' scheme is you give the

:43:38.:43:40.

money to Government, the Government spends it how it likes, and when you

:43:41.:43:44.

retire, you get some money back from the Government, hence your figures

:43:45.:43:47.

suggest teachers have put more in than they have taken out and it has

:43:48.:43:50.

effectively gone to the general taxation pool and is paid out out at

:43:51.:43:54.

a later date. So it is a different scheme than the more sensible and

:43:55.:43:56.

rational local Government scheme, which is basically investing money

:43:57.:43:59.

to make a profit to pay pensions in the future. But you would agree that

:44:00.:44:03.

in this day and age, the sort of benefits that public sector

:44:04.:44:06.

employees get from their pension schemes are hugely more generous, as

:44:07.:44:08.

they stand, without improvements that Amanda has been fighting for.

:44:09.:44:12.

Well, they are more generous, but I think that is something we should

:44:13.:44:15.

continue to fight for. Because, effectively, I see... As you know,

:44:16.:44:19.

as a former teacher, I worked for 20 years as a teacher, I see that as

:44:20.:44:25.

deferred pay, in effect. You take a graduate job at lower than average

:44:26.:44:28.

graduate wages, you put something back in as a teacher and you know

:44:29.:44:32.

that because of that one of the things you get out of it is a

:44:33.:44:35.

rational and reasonable pension at the end of it. Not working till the

:44:36.:44:41.

age of 68? That is what we signed up for, working to 60. I would

:44:42.:44:44.

challenge, you know, MPs between the ages of 60 and 68 to go into

:44:45.:44:48.

secondary schools and teach a few classes and see what they felt like

:44:49.:44:52.

afterwards. They should have have a go! They really should. And I think

:44:53.:44:56.

that your figures straightaway say that we have paid in more. We have

:44:57.:44:59.

asked the Government to do a financial review before they do any

:45:00.:45:03.

of this and to see how much has been paid in and how much is going out.

:45:04.:45:07.

And going back to 68, I am a parent as well as a teacher. No disrespect,

:45:08.:45:11.

but I do not want my kids being taught by somebody who is 68. And

:45:12.:45:14.

when I have talked to the children in my class, they say, oh, that is

:45:15.:45:18.

really old, Miss! That is my grandma's age! But 68, to be on the

:45:19.:45:24.

floor with schoolkids and to be inspiring secondary schoolkids, to

:45:25.:45:27.

be doing all the things we need to be doing and to be doing 60`hour

:45:28.:45:30.

weeks at 68 years old, it is impossible and it will mean nobody

:45:31.:45:35.

will take their pension. Thank you for coming in and talking to us.

:45:36.:45:39.

It's costing more than a quarter of a million pounds but so far, but

:45:40.:45:42.

after three years of Dorset County Council's Gypsy and traveller

:45:43.:45:44.

strategy, only one temporary stopping site has been adopted from

:45:45.:45:50.

a list of 300 potential locations. It's an emotive issue and always

:45:51.:45:54.

provokes heated arguments. Communities say they don't want

:45:55.:45:57.

their parks and open spaces continually invaded by travellers in

:45:58.:46:00.

the summer months, but as our Dorset political reporter Tristan Pascoe

:46:01.:46:02.

reports, no`one can agree on where temporary sites should be located.

:46:03.:46:14.

It is a game of cat and mouse across Dorset and the South West every

:46:15.:46:19.

summer, with dozens of unauthorised Gypsy traveller incursions into

:46:20.:46:22.

public parks and recreation grounds. Travellers know they can stay until

:46:23.:46:25.

evicted, which often takes between 6`12 days. It is a huge issue, and

:46:26.:46:33.

emotive issue, and last summer I tracked the unauthorised encampments

:46:34.:46:36.

from the e`mails I received from the community. As the travellers moved,

:46:37.:46:42.

so did the e`mail collection move from several places. Gillingham last

:46:43.:46:49.

summer's illegal incursions, many playgrounds became virtual no`go

:46:50.:46:51.

areas for local children and residents complained of the rubbish

:46:52.:46:55.

and Miss left behind. The authorities could move groups on

:46:56.:46:59.

immediately if they can provide a temporary stopping place. If we do

:47:00.:47:04.

not have temporarily traveller site, we have a stand`off each committee

:47:05.:47:09.

fracture. It goes on for days if not weeks. The trouble is, where every

:47:10.:47:14.

site is recommended, it seems, residents protest and local

:47:15.:47:17.

councillors, councils and MPs object. Three years ago, Dorset

:47:18.:47:24.

County Council, working with district authorities, came up with

:47:25.:47:27.

the Trixie and traveller strategy, with a firm of consultants dropped

:47:28.:47:33.

300 potential sites. `` Gypsy and Traveller. Three years later, only

:47:34.:47:40.

one side, this one here at Shaftesbury, has been adopted. Why

:47:41.:47:47.

is it taking so long? Everyone understands why we need to manage

:47:48.:47:51.

the problem. Until a site comes up near them. We have to look at it and

:47:52.:47:58.

explain that this is temporary. This site that you as a village won't

:47:59.:48:04.

like means that your village playing field, the school field of the

:48:05.:48:11.

picnic sites of the car parks will not be invaded. And equality

:48:12.:48:15.

campaigners are frustrated that progress has been so slow. There has

:48:16.:48:21.

been a certain amount of prejudice. Let's be honest, three years later,

:48:22.:48:24.

only one site. It is quite disappointing. Hence the problems

:48:25.:48:28.

that we have had in the last number of years in terms of unauthorised

:48:29.:48:34.

encampments. If you was to refuse this planning application, please

:48:35.:48:40.

show. After Davies if this anti`campaign by residents, a site

:48:41.:48:45.

was thrown out by planners last week. The Gypsy Council had said the

:48:46.:48:52.

former landfill site was unsuitable because of methane contamination,

:48:53.:48:56.

traffic pollution and flood risk. The Borough Council says it is now

:48:57.:48:59.

back to square one. We have been through the process of looking for a

:49:00.:49:03.

parody site and have not succeeded. Under current legislation, we cannot

:49:04.:49:08.

move Gypsies and travellers outside the borough boundary. `` a temporary

:49:09.:49:17.

site. We have been trying to get the law changed. That might allow us to

:49:18.:49:22.

look at a site in collaboration with other authorities in Bournemouth.

:49:23.:49:29.

That seems unlikely, because we have examined every possible site in

:49:30.:49:32.

Bournemouth. In planning terms alone, there is not one that fulfils

:49:33.:49:37.

the criteria. Your position is, there is no room for a temporary

:49:38.:49:40.

traveller site in Bournemouth, and even if there was, it would never

:49:41.:49:45.

get planning. It is a little suicide, I guaranteed vote loser? It

:49:46.:49:52.

look at it quite like that. We try to reflect the views of residents.

:49:53.:49:55.

To provide such a site is not something we can do. But without

:49:56.:50:00.

being able to identify any new sites, it is likely that public

:50:01.:50:05.

parks and children play areas will be taken over by unauthorised

:50:06.:50:09.

encampments for this and maybe many more songs to come.

:50:10.:50:14.

No wonder the public are so annoyed and furious about all of this. I

:50:15.:50:23.

mean, Bournemouth and Poole College during `` are arguing about who

:50:24.:50:26.

should take the travellers. The protection has not been offered to

:50:27.:50:31.

children's play areas and public parks. It is spineless of councils

:50:32.:50:36.

not to tackle this. Yes, frankly. We need to get together and sort this

:50:37.:50:41.

out. At the end of the day, temporary sites will need to be

:50:42.:50:44.

provided and we will need to work across councils and across regions

:50:45.:50:48.

to identify suitable sites and to take some responsibility. Because we

:50:49.:50:54.

cannot carry on with the encampments that are costing the public purse

:50:55.:50:57.

and the capital money that goes into preventing encampments going on to

:50:58.:51:05.

public land. But Simon, you said it was across regions. Ya been given

:51:06.:51:09.

the responsibility to sort this out in Southampton. It is harder in city

:51:10.:51:16.

areas because we have 200 thousand people living in a compact area.

:51:17.:51:20.

Finding suitable sites for cities is more difficult than rural areas

:51:21.:51:23.

where there is more space. These are temporary sites, not permanent.

:51:24.:51:29.

Therefore, the significant facilities are needed. This is what

:51:30.:51:36.

we have been doing in West Sussex. We have 70 illegal encampments in

:51:37.:51:41.

the last year. About 80 months ago, we sat there with the police,

:51:42.:51:45.

district and borough councils and said, look, how do we work together?

:51:46.:51:50.

What happened was a terrific piece of work and I am so proud of it. We

:51:51.:51:54.

saw it out ourselves. The districts and borrowers went out and looked at

:51:55.:51:58.

various options around the country. East Sussex was one model. They came

:51:59.:52:02.

back and presented it. We have grouped together and we now have

:52:03.:52:06.

protocols with police and the protocol that we will be taking

:52:07.:52:09.

control for the districts and borrowers of all this sort of

:52:10.:52:16.

thing. `` the districts and borrowers. We have identified one

:52:17.:52:23.

site in Chichester. That is difficult for the residents around,

:52:24.:52:25.

but this will make a big difference. You have to sort out the protocols

:52:26.:52:30.

and who will do what. And then you think it will make a difference? I

:52:31.:52:35.

am very confident. It has come from the bottom up. We have listened to

:52:36.:52:39.

residents and worked together. It is a cracking model.

:52:40.:52:42.

Now, if you were watching last week, you'll know that as part of our

:52:43.:52:45.

coverage of the European elections we've been talking to MEPs from the

:52:46.:52:48.

five parties with representation in our region. We've reached the

:52:49.:52:51.

halfway stage now. We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats and

:52:52.:52:54.

the Conservatives, and today it's the turn of UKIP.

:52:55.:53:06.

This place is much more important than it got to be and Britain will

:53:07.:53:09.

be much better off out of it. But while it is still there and while we

:53:10.:53:13.

are members of the European Union, it is very important that we have a

:53:14.:53:18.

group of MEPs from the UK Independence Party Google reliably

:53:19.:53:29.

stand up for British interests. He is the UKIP spokesman on trade and

:53:30.:53:32.

has published a report criticising claims that Britain will lose jobs

:53:33.:53:36.

if we leave the EU. The fact of the matter is that

:53:37.:53:42.

China, in 2012, sold almost 290,000 million euros worth of goods to the

:53:43.:53:49.

EU. Russian 2012 sold 223,000 million euros worth of goods. The

:53:50.:53:53.

fact of the matter is that you do not need to be in a political union

:53:54.:53:57.

to trade. You do not even need to have a free`trade agreement to

:53:58.:54:03.

trade. Neither Russia or China have free`trade agreements. The trade

:54:04.:54:07.

would continue. But Nick Clegg says that 3 million jobs are at stake if

:54:08.:54:11.

Britain leads the EU. Some will say we would have more influence of the

:54:12.:54:14.

British people did not waste forts on a protest party like UKIP. And we

:54:15.:54:19.

should send MPs here who are determined to engage with the

:54:20.:54:22.

system. What's Nick Clegg and his hangers on are doing in political to

:54:23.:54:28.

call life is they are selling their politics of fear. They have run out

:54:29.:54:31.

of arguments and it is the politics of fear and deceit. But you claim

:54:32.:54:36.

expenses to come here and cause trouble. It sticks in a lot of

:54:37.:54:41.

people's fraud. Every single MEP gets the same allowances and

:54:42.:54:46.

expenses. Unlike with MPs, it is simply a third the amount of money.

:54:47.:54:55.

If you take expenses, shouldn't you engage with the European Union,

:54:56.:55:00.

fighting for Britain's interests? Your question, with respect, should

:55:01.:55:06.

be asked differently. It is in fact, why, to the other parties, do you

:55:07.:55:16.

not through all this prosperity destroying law that is destroying

:55:17.:55:19.

British interests? We are the only party that opposes it.

:55:20.:55:23.

They now have a lot more councils. Is that changing the character of

:55:24.:55:28.

the party? We have more activists, more supporters, more everything. We

:55:29.:55:34.

have an influx of enthusiastic and able people which has changed as for

:55:35.:55:37.

the better. The establishment parties are not. One of the primary

:55:38.:55:45.

reasons we're here is to tell the British people what is going on. One

:55:46.:55:50.

of your voters `` what of your voters that see the best way of

:55:51.:55:54.

getting a referendum on the US is by voting Conservative? `` on the EU.

:55:55.:56:05.

David Cameron has been unreliable. We need a massive fort for UKIP in

:56:06.:56:11.

the European elections in 2014. `` a massive vote.

:56:12.:56:17.

Over the next two weeks, we will be hearing from Labour and then the

:56:18.:56:22.

Green Party. Now our regular round`up of the

:56:23.:56:25.

political week in the South in 60 seconds.

:56:26.:56:35.

Would you like a pay rise? Workers on the Isle of Wight have some of

:56:36.:56:39.

the worst salaries in the country. The TUC began their campaign for

:56:40.:56:43.

higher wages on the island. Southern Electric agreed to freeze their

:56:44.:56:47.

prices until 2016 on the same day Portsmouth Council were warning of

:56:48.:56:51.

power cuts. But Labour MP Alan Whitehead argued more profits would

:56:52.:56:57.

choke off investment, saying it was more important to have a stable

:56:58.:57:01.

market. It has to be sustainable in the long term and that is when

:57:02.:57:05.

investment will comment. Fracking is not the answer according to Caroline

:57:06.:57:09.

Lucas, in court last week. She argued cheaper energy would, to cost

:57:10.:57:14.

to the environment. Meanwhile, fishermen hit by winter storms are

:57:15.:57:19.

still waiting for compensation. A Dorset MP says EU approval is

:57:20.:57:23.

bureaucratic and slow. The paperwork, the time it takes, and

:57:24.:57:26.

they won't even get the money they need anyway. Finally, all schools

:57:27.:57:31.

are not so sure will get a full`time school must and deal with the NHS.

:57:32.:57:38.

`` all schools in oxygen will get a full`time school nurse in a deal

:57:39.:57:44.

with the NHS. I think David Cameron regrets saying

:57:45.:57:48.

money would be no object. In terms of local authorities, are you

:57:49.:57:50.

getting money through for repairs to roads? The intention was there and

:57:51.:57:56.

it is one of those things. We have 3.5 million and are very grateful

:57:57.:58:00.

for that because the gods have taken a hammering over the last year again

:58:01.:58:05.

for us. We had substantial rains in the last year. And again. There was

:58:06.:58:14.

a ?15 million impact on the roads. People really care about it, you saw

:58:15.:58:17.

that at the last election, didn't you? Yes, we did. The point `` we

:58:18.:58:26.

put millions of pounds into repairing roads in a local

:58:27.:58:28.

initiative which proved fabulously popular. We now have a new programme

:58:29.:58:34.

starting on the 11th where we are putting 30 million over two years on

:58:35.:58:38.

to better road programmes because we know we have to invest in this. It

:58:39.:58:41.

is destined to save money in the future. Is Southampton getting that

:58:42.:58:49.

sort of money? No. We're getting quarter of a million pounds. It is

:58:50.:58:55.

quite a small amount of money, really. How many miles of roads do

:58:56.:59:02.

you have? We have 330 miles of roads. I know you have more, but

:59:03.:59:07.

proportionally we're getting worse. It is a big issue on the doorsteps.

:59:08.:59:11.

We did a survey before the budget and this became one of the top

:59:12.:59:16.

issues. We are pledging next year to double the amount we are spending on

:59:17.:59:20.

roads. That is even now we are facing difficult Financial Times.

:59:21.:59:26.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests Simon

:59:27.:59:29.

Letts and Louise Goldsmith. Don't forget to keep up`to`date with

:59:30.:59:32.

southern politics by reading my blog ` there's the address at

:59:33.:59:34.

boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,

:59:35.:59:35.

back to you. Now let's get more from our

:59:36.:59:49.

political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never

:59:50.:59:53.

spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood

:59:54.:59:57.

memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few

:59:58.:00:01.

council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to

:00:02.:00:04.

cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think

:00:05.:00:07.

the big difference with the National front in France is that they are

:00:08.:00:11.

building on decades of successful that they finished second in the

:00:12.:00:15.

presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they

:00:16.:00:21.

were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas

:00:22.:00:24.

the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.

:00:25.:00:33.

It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of

:00:34.:00:38.

its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not

:00:39.:00:44.

as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in

:00:45.:00:48.

the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same

:00:49.:00:56.

about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is

:00:57.:01:01.

pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about

:01:02.:01:04.

immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to

:01:05.:01:08.

an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council

:01:09.:01:11.

houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.

:01:12.:01:15.

We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As

:01:16.:01:20.

extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the

:01:21.:01:27.

comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left

:01:28.:01:35.

as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement

:01:36.:01:40.

that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.

:01:41.:01:51.

Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its

:01:52.:01:55.

act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge

:01:56.:02:00.

and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist

:02:01.:02:05.

party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have

:02:06.:02:10.

voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and

:02:11.:02:17.

France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when

:02:18.:02:24.

they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because

:02:25.:02:30.

the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le

:02:31.:02:39.

Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put

:02:40.:02:50.

them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much

:02:51.:02:54.

harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than

:02:55.:02:58.

there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If

:02:59.:03:12.

Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the

:03:13.:03:16.

centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the

:03:17.:03:20.

second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does

:03:21.:03:26.

and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's

:03:27.:03:31.

doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might

:03:32.:03:36.

call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from

:03:37.:03:40.

xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from

:03:41.:03:45.

globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but

:03:46.:03:50.

are put off by the current president. That is what I do not

:03:51.:03:53.

think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon

:03:54.:03:58.

Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he

:03:59.:04:03.

was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up

:04:04.:04:06.

against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the

:04:07.:04:12.

phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of

:04:13.:04:17.

electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a

:04:18.:04:21.

few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting

:04:22.:04:25.

people's bins collected so they become part of the system that

:04:26.:04:28.

people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the

:04:29.:04:34.

Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be

:04:35.:04:38.

cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the

:04:39.:04:44.

leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be

:04:45.:04:47.

cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where

:04:48.:04:53.

the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is

:04:54.:04:57.

quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the

:04:58.:05:02.

Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.

:05:03.:05:07.

One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead

:05:08.:05:17.

over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people

:05:18.:05:24.

who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the

:05:25.:05:28.

Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of

:05:29.:05:32.

Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives

:05:33.:05:37.

did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can

:05:38.:05:41.

sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are

:05:42.:05:47.

concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the

:05:48.:05:52.

Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was

:05:53.:05:56.

impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the

:05:57.:06:00.

British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,

:06:01.:06:05.

you are not occupying the party political territory where we will

:06:06.:06:10.

vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels

:06:11.:06:14.

a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the

:06:15.:06:20.

voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not

:06:21.:06:25.

unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it

:06:26.:06:28.

steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not

:06:29.:06:32.

respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But

:06:33.:06:36.

he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may

:06:37.:06:40.

think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot

:06:41.:06:45.

after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political

:06:46.:06:48.

weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr

:06:49.:06:56.

Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition

:06:57.:07:00.

authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.

:07:01.:07:03.

And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be

:07:04.:07:07.

attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget

:07:08.:07:13.

that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical

:07:14.:07:17.

trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to

:07:18.:07:24.

five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question

:07:25.:07:30.

is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This

:07:31.:07:36.

reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking

:07:37.:07:40.

poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and

:07:41.:07:45.

personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away

:07:46.:07:49.

an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important

:07:50.:07:56.

difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the

:07:57.:08:00.

election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up

:08:01.:08:05.

their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,

:08:06.:08:08.

we do not like this government because of course, you do not like

:08:09.:08:12.

the government. But next January or February they will be making up

:08:13.:08:17.

their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour

:08:18.:08:22.

figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because

:08:23.:08:26.

there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?

:08:27.:08:33.

Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from

:08:34.:08:37.

the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a

:08:38.:08:43.

continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they

:08:44.:08:47.

do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying

:08:48.:08:54.

he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in

:08:55.:09:01.

the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible

:09:02.:09:05.

structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed

:09:06.:09:09.

Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red

:09:10.:09:15.

ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy

:09:16.:09:18.

speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron

:09:19.:09:23.

nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this

:09:24.:09:28.

week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on

:09:29.:09:33.

the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in

:09:34.:09:38.

last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.

:09:39.:09:46.

We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A

:09:47.:09:52.

referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can

:09:53.:09:59.

read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We

:10:00.:10:08.

have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.

:10:09.:10:14.

Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on

:10:15.:10:23.

facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen

:10:24.:10:28.

to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You

:10:29.:10:36.

have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.

:10:37.:10:43.

I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that

:10:44.:10:48.

and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for

:10:49.:10:53.

pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said

:10:54.:10:58.

actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later

:10:59.:11:06.

on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important

:11:07.:11:09.

thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration

:11:10.:11:13.

policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to

:11:14.:11:18.

come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important

:11:19.:11:21.

thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I

:11:22.:11:26.

suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11

:11:27.:11:33.

turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I

:11:34.:11:38.

slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought

:11:39.:11:43.

far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public

:11:44.:11:48.

disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean

:11:49.:11:56.

the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the

:11:57.:12:01.

second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man

:12:02.:12:07.

who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.

:12:08.:12:13.

Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs

:12:14.:12:16.

to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions

:12:17.:12:20.

because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after

:12:21.:12:26.

Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands

:12:27.:12:30.

with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign

:12:31.:12:34.

policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria

:12:35.:12:39.

worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of

:12:40.:12:42.

the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say

:12:43.:12:47.

that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for

:12:48.:12:51.

blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating

:12:52.:12:55.

the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's

:12:56.:13:03.

shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does

:13:04.:13:06.

that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing

:13:07.:13:11.

with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will

:13:12.:13:15.

see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily

:13:16.:13:19.

Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here

:13:20.:13:23.

next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:24.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:32.

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