06/04/2014 Sunday Politics South


06/04/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press,

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Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top

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story. The economic outlook is getting

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rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living

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crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins

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us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics

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Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of

:01:09.:01:10.

In the South... Fancy owning an world leaders?

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In the South... Fancy owning an energy company? The Government's

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keen to encourage community`owned renewable power generation and

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Oxfordshire could have the biggest scheme in the world.

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new London borough. A blue flint for regeneration or economic

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And with me as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be

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as brief as a Cabinet Minister's apology.

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A frenzy of betting on the Grand National yesterday. But there was

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one book on which betting was suspended, and that was on the fate

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of Culture Secretary Maria Miller, now the 2/1 favourite to be forced

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out the Cabinet. She galloped through her apology to the Commons

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on Thursday in just 32 seconds. But speed did her no favours. There's

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been mounting pressure on her to resign ever since, especially from

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Tories. And this weekend the Chairman of the Independent

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Parliamentary Standards Authority, Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave

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away the power to decide how colleagues who break the rules are

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punished. An inquiry into Maria Miller's expenses claims was launch

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in 2012, following allegations he claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she

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lived in part time with her parents. She had designated this her second

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home. She was referred to the Parliamentary Standards

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Commissioner, who recommended that she repay ?45,000. But this week the

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Commons Standards Committee, comprising of MPs from all parties,

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dismissed the complaint against Maria Miller and ordered her to

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repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently overclaiming her merge claimants.

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She was forced to apologise to the Commons for the legalistic way she

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dealt with the complaints against her. But Tony Gallagher told the

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Daily Politics on Friday: We got a third call from Craig Oliver who

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pointed out, she is looking at Leveson and the call is badly timed.

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I think if you are making a series of telephone calls to a newspaper

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organisation investigating the conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that

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comes close After that interview Craig Oliver

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contacted us, saying there was no threat in anyway over Leveson. I

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mead it clear at the time. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about

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me, and you can use that. The Daily Telegraph have released a tape of a

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phone call between Maria Miller's aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter

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investigating her expenses claim. Joanna Hindley said:

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Maria's obviously been having quite a lot of editor's meetings around

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Leveson at the moment. So I'm just going to kind of flag up that

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connection for you to think about. The Prime Minister is sticking by

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his Culture Secretary, but this weekend's crescendo of criticism of

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her presents him with a problem and he could be wishing Maria Miller

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would just fall on her sword. Even over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on

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Sunday poll think she should go. On the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and

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Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, defended his colleague. I've

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known her always to be a reasonable and honest person. But is she doing

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the Government or her any good by staying in office at the moment, do

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you think? This is a matter the Prime Minister has to take

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consideration of and she herself. My view generally is I'm supportive of

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Maria, because if we are not careful we end one a witch-hunt of somebody.

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And I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and

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the man in the white suit, former MP and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin

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Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart Stuart sturkts let me put this to

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you, a Conservative MP told this programme, this is a quote, she has

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handled this appallingly. Downing Street has acted like judge and

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jury, for Craig Oliver to get involved is disastrous. She's been

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protected by the whips from the start. What do you say to that? It's

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not great, is it? The fact of the matter is the question one should

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ask is, did she deliberately try to make money? Did she deliberately try

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to obscure ate? The answer is she certainly didn't deliberately try to

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make money, in the system, which was the old system, and with regard to

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obscure ago, I wasn't there, but let's put it this way. She was going

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through a quasi-judicial process and might have ended up in court, so she

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has a right to defend herself. Hold on o you said she doesn't do it to

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make money, she remortgaged the house a couple of times to earn more

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interest to us, the taxpayer, and when interest rates went down she

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didn't reduce the amount she was charging in expenses. Well, the

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point is the adjudicator said there was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a

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committee, Standards Committee, said actually it should be reduced. That

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was mainly MPs but there are three lay members. Yes, but they don't

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have the vote. OK, fine, that is where it is wrong and we've got to

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get it sorted. Let me put another quote from our Conservative MP. He

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didn't want to be named. None of you do at the moment. I'm being named.

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But you are backing her. George young in cahoots. He's been leading

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on the Standards Committee to find her innocent. The Standards

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Committee is unfit for purpose. I think the Standards Committee should

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be revisited. I think the system is still evolving. And I think actually

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we ought to have totally independent judgment on MPs' pay and allowances.

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We haven't have not got there yet and that is where it is wrong.

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Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in the Maria Miller process and with

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the current Standards Commissioner in the same way that they saw off a

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previous Commissioner they thought was too independent? Andrew it is

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exactly the same. Yesterday I looked at a diary entry I made for May

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2000, I said, dreadful meeting standards and privileges, they are

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playing party politics. One of them told Elizabeth fill kin to her face

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the gossip in the tea room was she had gone crazy. Nothing's changed.

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What this shows is most of all, what's the committee for? If it is

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just going to rubber stamp what the party wants and its mates, I don't

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see any point. But it hasn't rubber stamped. It's changed it. Well, it

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has watered down. That's why we should make it totally independent

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and it shouldn't be involved in the House of Commons. It is plus plus ca

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change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and MPs closing ranks for one of their

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own. Has the Commons learned nothing? And this is after the

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expenses scandal, where everything was out for everybody to see, you

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would think MPs would be careful. This is before the expenses scandal.

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We are looking at an historical event, during your time, Martin, not

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mine. I'm clean on this. You campaigned for him as an

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independent. I did, he was a good friend of mine. And now you've

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joined the club. And now you are defending Maria Miller? I'm

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defending someone who hasn't been proved guilty of anything beyond the

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fact she was rather slow to come forward with evidence. My point on

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that, is I understand that. MPs are being lambasted the whole time these

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days. There were a heck of a lot of them, Martin, who are utterly

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decent. She didn't try to make money. We've just been through that.

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I don't think that's right. The jury is out on that. What should have

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happened in the Miller case, Martin Bell? I don't think there should be

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a committee on standards. I think the Commissioner should make a

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report. There has been to be justice for the MP complained against. Then

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the committee of the whole House can consider it. But we are, the House

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of Commons, then as now is incapable of regulating itself. That's been

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proving yet again. She made a perfunctory apology. She threatened

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and instructed the Standards Commissioner investigating her, and

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her special adviser linked expenses to Leveson, when trying to stop the

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Daily Telegraph from publishing. I mean, is that the behaviour of a

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Cabinet Minister? Well, it's probably not the behaviour of

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someone that's got time on their hands. She's a very busy Cabinet

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Minister. Well, she had enough time to write lots of letters to the

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Standards Commission ser. She felt under such threat. She had the time.

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She had to make the time. Die know the lady is not trying desperately

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to make money. I disagree but on that. The fact of the matter is,

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this was an old, old system, that we've tried to put right, or the

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Commons has tried to put right. I agree that MPs shouldn't get

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involved in this. Should we get rid of this committee? It serves no

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purpose except to cause trouble. The adjudicator has said that and it

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should be the end of it. It shouldn't come back to the Commons.

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Although her special adviser threatened them over Leveson she was

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and is the Minister responsible for trying to introduce something like

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Leveson and that is something a big chunk that the press doesn't want.

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She is a target. It has a good record on this issue. It played wit

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a straight bat. The facts aren't in dispute are they? Will she make it

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to the next cabinet reshuffle and then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it

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is a matter for the Prime Minister. In my view, as things stand, I

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question did she deliberately want to make money? I don't think she

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did. Should she go? No. Should she be reshuffled? I don't know.

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Goodness me, you are asking someone who will never be reshuffled,

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because he will never make it. I was only asking for your opinion, not

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your ability to do it. This is a problem for Cameron isn't it? It is

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a problem for Cameron. There is nothing wrong with returning to be

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badge benches, as you know. Hear, hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen,

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can she survive? Is I'm going out of the prediction game when I said

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Clegg is going to win the date, so I owe Janan a tenner on that one.

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Grant Shapps has supported her. She was ringed by Sir George young and

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Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty devastating. On past form David

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Cameron hates having to bounce people out of the cabinet. He will

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want to keep Maria Miller until the summer reshuffle. This is a question

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mark on whether she survive this is. This isn't damaging to the

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Conservative or the Labour Party, it is damaging to everyone. This is

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catastrophic damage to the entire political establishment. Every

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single speech that David Cameron and Ed Miliband have given since 2009,

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talking about restoring trust, they can wipe them from their computers,

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because voters are going to look that there and say, this lot haven't

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learnt anything. They are giving perfunctory apologies and then you

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have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs and rather than paying back ?45,000,

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she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have been into it. Damage is huge. Just

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getting rid of one Cabinet Minister, you will need to do more than that.

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You will notice that Labour haven't made huge weather of this. No,

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goodness me, they have their own skeletons. Exactly. The person who

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has made hay out of this is Nigel Farage, who has not been backwards

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in coming forward. He doesn't seem to care about skeletons. The Prime

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Minister has be-Gunby backing her, but that's not popular even with

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Tory voters. How does he get out of this? This is the problem for him.

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Five years ago his reaction to the expenses scandal was seen by many

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Tory backbenchers as excessive. They felt hung out to dry by a man who is

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independently wealthy. To go from that to making a special exemption

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to Maria Miller because it is politically suitable is more

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incendiary and provocative. It is not just upsetting the voters and

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the Daily Telegraph but a good number of people behind him. I think

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they will get rid of her. I think the Government, to paraphrase

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Churchill, will zoo the decent thing after exhausting all options, of the

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European elections a reshuffle. The culture department has gone from a

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baulk water in haul to one of the most politically sensational jobs

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because of its proximity to the Leveson issue. She has to be

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replaced by someone Lily skillful and substantial. Mr Cameron is not

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short of smart women? Nikki Morgan, the education department, these are

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absolutely outstanding women and the problem that the generation elected

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in 2005, Maria Miller generation, there are some really good people

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elected in 2010. You are not responsible for hacking into the

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culture Department's Twitter account last night? I was out at the time!

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They all say that! One so, Maria Miller is like a modern-day Robin

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Hood... She robs the poor to help the rich. Which one of us has not

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embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it is the lady. You have the perfect

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cover. We would not know how to, would we? You cannot tweet from a

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mobile device, can you? Play it safe. No, do something dramatic.

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Have lots of pledges. Have just a few pledges. Ah, there must be a

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Labour policy review reaching its conclusion because everyone has some

:16:02.:16:04.

free advice for the party about its message and the man delivering it.

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Here's Adam. He is well liked by the public don't quite buy him as a

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leader. The papers say he is in hock to the unions and the party has a

:16:19.:16:21.

lead in the polls but it is not solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That

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is what they said Winnie who lost the 1982 election. The whole country

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deserves better and we will work to ensure that the day will come when

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with the Labour government, the country will get better. Someone who

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was there can see some spooky parallels. The important lesson from

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1992 is it cannot rest on your laurels and hope for the best, you

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cannot sit on a lead of seven points because the election narrows that

:16:57.:17:01.

and you cannot rely on the government not getting its act

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together because the Conservative Party was well funded and organised,

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the double whammy posters, the tax bombshell, but incredibly effective

:17:10.:17:14.

and the message was unified and they beat us on the campaign. The lesson

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for Labour today is this lead will evaporate quite possibly over the

:17:22.:17:24.

next few months and we might go into the election behind in the polls.

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But Ed Miliband is getting conflicting advice about how to

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avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be cautious and then, the idea that

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Labour can squeak into office with just 35% of the vote, which worries

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some people. Each month, the Labour Party meets around the country and

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last week, everybody spoke about the dangers of this 35% strategy. They

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were increasingly unhappy and it is very important that those people

:17:58.:18:02.

around the leader naturally have a duty to protect him and they make

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sure he gets this message that while there is total support for him, they

:18:09.:18:13.

do want this key year in the run-up to the General Election to be

:18:14.:18:16.

putting out an alternative which we can defend on the doorstep. The

:18:17.:18:23.

doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his concession speech is crammed with

:18:24.:18:28.

Spanish back hackers. The old Labour offices are no a budget hostel.

:18:29.:18:35.

Labour headquarters is down the road and they are putting the finishing

:18:36.:18:39.

touches to a speech Ed Miliband will give this week about the cost of

:18:40.:18:43.

living and I am told he will drop hints about new policies in juicy

:18:44.:18:47.

areas like housing, low pay, growth and devolving power. As for the

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charge that they are not radical enough, his people say they want to

:18:53.:18:56.

be bold but they have to be credible as well. They say that Labour is

:18:57.:19:01.

more united than it has ever been but there has been some grumbling

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that the cost of living campaign is not the same as a vision for the

:19:06.:19:09.

country. And that Ed Miliband was not statesman-like enough at Prime

:19:10.:19:13.

Minister's Questions and one figure who sat at the same table in the

:19:14.:19:17.

Neil Kinnock years summed it up like this. Things are OK but it feels

:19:18.:19:22.

like we're playing for the draw. Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline

:19:23.:19:25.

Flint joins me now for the Sunday Interview. This 35% victory

:19:26.:19:40.

strategy, it does not sound very ambitious? I am campaigning to win

:19:41.:19:46.

this election with a majority government and everybody else around

:19:47.:19:51.

the table is also. But we want to go to every corner of the country and

:19:52.:19:56.

win votes for Labour and win seats, that is what we are working towards.

:19:57.:20:01.

To avoid last time, the coalition bartering. But that 35% is a victory

:20:02.:20:09.

strategy so are you saying there is no 35% strategy and that no one at

:20:10.:20:13.

the heart of Labour is not arguing for this? We are working to win

:20:14.:20:19.

around the country and to win all of those battle ground seats and we

:20:20.:20:24.

must have a strategy that appeals to a cross-section of the public but

:20:25.:20:28.

within that, that broad group Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You

:20:29.:20:38.

could do that with 35% of the vote? There is lots of polling and

:20:39.:20:41.

everyone looks at this about what we need to do to get seats and we want

:20:42.:20:46.

to have a comprehensive majority at the next election to win to govern

:20:47.:20:54.

this country. Last week, we have been reading reports of splits in

:20:55.:20:58.

the party over policy and on tactics, even strategy. A struggle

:20:59.:21:04.

for control of the General Election manifesto, we are told. What are you

:21:05.:21:11.

arguing over? I said on the committee and just listening to the

:21:12.:21:14.

film before, it is about being radical but also credible and we are

:21:15.:21:19.

talking about evolution and that is an important subject but we are also

:21:20.:21:26.

united and to be honest, in 2010 people were writing us off saying we

:21:27.:21:29.

would turn on ourselves and that has not been the case. We are not

:21:30.:21:35.

arguing about the fundamentals, we are discussing the policies that are

:21:36.:21:39.

coming up with different colleagues and talking about how we can make

:21:40.:21:42.

sure they are presented to the public and that is part of a

:21:43.:21:45.

process. That is a discussion, not disagreement. The Financial Times,

:21:46.:21:53.

which is usually pretty fair, reports a battle between Ed

:21:54.:21:59.

Miliband's radical instincts and the more business fiscal conservatism of

:22:00.:22:04.

Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am for radical change, I am for energy

:22:05.:22:08.

and I believe strongly we must be formed the market and people might

:22:09.:22:13.

portray that as anti-business but this is about more competition and

:22:14.:22:18.

transparency and others coming into this market so our policy on this is

:22:19.:22:22.

radical, not excepting the status quo. It is also for business.

:22:23.:22:30.

Opinion polls show that few people regard Ed Miliband as by Minister

:22:31.:22:39.

material -- Prime Minister material. That has been true since he became

:22:40.:22:44.

leader. And in some cases, they have been getting worse. Why is that?

:22:45.:22:51.

Opinion polls say certain things about the personalities of leaders,

:22:52.:22:55.

David Cameron is not great either. And they were not great when he was

:22:56.:23:01.

in opposition. At this stage, he was getting 49% as Prime Minister real

:23:02.:23:09.

material and Ed Miliband, 19. -- Prime Minister material. When you

:23:10.:23:15.

look at certain questions that the public is asked about who you think

:23:16.:23:20.

you would trust about being fair in terms of policy towards Britain, who

:23:21.:23:23.

understands the cost of living crisis, they very much identify with

:23:24.:23:29.

Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the polls. Ed Miliband has made that

:23:30.:23:35.

happen. We have one more councillors, we have been running in

:23:36.:23:41.

by-elections and we have held this government over the barrel over six

:23:42.:23:45.

months on energy prices. That is to do with his leadership. The more

:23:46.:23:49.

that voters save him, the less they seem convinced. In 2011, he had been

:23:50.:23:57.

leader for one year, and only 11% regarded him as weird, by 2014, that

:23:58.:24:06.

was 41%. Look at that! Look at that weirdness! What people need is to

:24:07.:24:12.

know where the Labour Party stands on fundamental issues. And in those

:24:13.:24:16.

areas, particularly the cost of living and fairness and people being

:24:17.:24:21.

concerned that we are entering into a period where people will be worse

:24:22.:24:25.

for the first time ever at the end of the Parliament, these things are

:24:26.:24:30.

important and Ed Miliband is part of our success. Definitely. I think

:24:31.:24:38.

this is ridiculous, to be fair, he is not a politician that says, I am

:24:39.:24:42.

dying with the Arctic monkeys, I know who is the number one. He did

:24:43.:24:50.

not play that game. -- down. He is not either there to portray himself

:24:51.:24:56.

as someone who was with the children, I know everything about

:24:57.:25:00.

popular culture. His authenticity is the most important thing. People do

:25:01.:25:04.

not think he is authentic, unless they think we were at is authentic.

:25:05.:25:10.

Is it true that his staff applaud him when he comes back after giving

:25:11.:25:16.

even a mediocre speech? I have never heard that. I have never heard about

:25:17.:25:25.

him being applauded. And I am pleased to applaud him with he makes

:25:26.:25:28.

speeches, I have given him a standing ovation. You have to do

:25:29.:25:32.

that because the cameras are rolling! No, he made a good speech.

:25:33.:25:39.

Five minutes without notes. It took a long time to memorise I don't

:25:40.:25:43.

blame him! The cost of living. Focusing on that, it has paid

:25:44.:25:48.

dividends. But inflation is falling and perhaps collapsing, unemployment

:25:49.:25:52.

is falling faster than anybody thought, as we can see. Wages are

:25:53.:26:00.

rising, soon faster than prices. Retail sales are booming, people

:26:01.:26:04.

have got money in their pockets. Isn't the cost of living crisis

:26:05.:26:09.

narrative running out of steam? I do not think so and I should say that I

:26:10.:26:16.

welcome any sign of positive changes in the economy, if anybody gets a

:26:17.:26:20.

job in Doncaster, I am pleased by the end of this Parliament families

:26:21.:26:26.

will be over ?900 worse off because of tax and benefit changes and the

:26:27.:26:33.

working person is ?1600 worse off and it is the first government since

:26:34.:26:36.

the 1870s where people will be at the end of the Parliament. We

:26:37.:26:40.

believe the government made wrong choices that lead the rich off at

:26:41.:26:44.

the expense of those on middle and lower incomes. -- let the rich. The

:26:45.:26:52.

average family ?794 worse off from tax and benefit changes. That has

:26:53.:26:57.

been backed up. They are those figures. But he has skewed these

:26:58.:27:02.

figures by including the richest, where the fall in tax and the

:27:03.:27:08.

penalty they pay is highest. If you take away the richest, it is nowhere

:27:09.:27:13.

near that figure. Everybody agrees and even the government and

:27:14.:27:17.

knowledges that at the end of their tenure in Parliament, people will be

:27:18.:27:23.

worse off. 350,000 extra people who would desperately like full-time

:27:24.:27:27.

work who are working part-time and 1 million young people unemployed and

:27:28.:27:31.

the reason the cost of living has a residence is people feel that. I was

:27:32.:27:37.

in a supermarket and at Doncaster and someone summed this up, he said

:27:38.:27:41.

I work hard and at the end of the week, beyond paying bills, I have

:27:42.:27:46.

got nothing else. If you take away the top 10% who are losing over

:27:47.:27:54.

?600,000, the average loss comes down to around ?400, less than half

:27:55.:28:01.

of what you claim. That figure is totally misleading. These are the

:28:02.:28:07.

figures from the IFS. It still shows... Whatever way you shape

:28:08.:28:13.

this, people will still be worse off, families worse off because of

:28:14.:28:16.

these changes to tax and benefits and working people because wages

:28:17.:28:23.

have not kept up with prices. Your energy portfolio, you back the

:28:24.:28:28.

enquiry into the big six companies and you intend to go ahead with the

:28:29.:28:32.

price freeze and reconfigure the market even before it reports. If

:28:33.:28:37.

you win, this is a waste of time? Whilst we have had this process

:28:38.:28:41.

before the announcement, we always feel if it goes that way, there

:28:42.:28:46.

might be areas we have not thought of that the enquiry will also draw

:28:47.:28:49.

attention to that we might want to add on. You are right, our basic

:28:50.:28:53.

reforms for the new regulator, to separate generation supply, we will

:28:54.:28:59.

pursue that. What happens if this report concludes that your plans are

:29:00.:29:03.

not correct? You will still go ahead? I don't think so. Actually,

:29:04.:29:08.

if you look at the report that Ofgem produced, some of the issues Labour

:29:09.:29:13.

has been drawing attention to like vertical integration, they cover

:29:14.:29:17.

that. I was asking about the Competition Commission? The report

:29:18.:29:23.

last week is a result of working together and I think it is clearly

:29:24.:29:30.

accepted in this sector, look at SSE last week, they will separate the

:29:31.:29:34.

business. We are pushing at the open door. It has already pulled out of

:29:35.:29:55.

gas. So it follows if you freeze energy prices across the market, it

:29:56.:29:58.

might be the right thing to do but there will be a cost in terms of

:29:59.:30:02.

jobs and investment, correct? Well, I met with SSE last weekand the

:30:03.:30:06.

chief executive and talked about these issues. The jobs changes are

:30:07.:30:11.

partly about them looking at how they could be more efficient as a

:30:12.:30:14.

company. On offshore wind that wasn't really to do with the price

:30:15.:30:17.

freeze. That was more to do with issues around confidence in that

:30:18.:30:20.

area and therefore willing to put the money into it, as well as

:30:21.:30:26.

technical issues as well But there'll be job losses. Is that a

:30:27.:30:31.

price worth paying? We believe the reason we are having a price freeze

:30:32.:30:35.

is these companies have been overcharging customers and haven't

:30:36.:30:38.

been investing in their organisations and making them more

:30:39.:30:43.

efficient. I do not believe a price freeze is linked to job losses.

:30:44.:30:47.

These companies do need to be more efficient. Goal for all of us is

:30:48.:30:50.

realising the fantastic opportunity for more jobs and growth from an

:30:51.:30:54.

energy sector that has certainty going forward. That's what Labour

:30:55.:30:58.

will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank you.

:30:59.:31:00.

It's 1130 and you're watching The you.

:31:01.:31:02.

Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us

:31:03.:31:05.

now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here

:31:06.:31:13.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My name's Peter Henley. On today's show

:31:14.:31:18.

` could community`owned renewable energy schemes help break the grip

:31:19.:31:24.

of the big six power companies? If so, then Oxfordshire is in the

:31:25.:31:27.

vanguard with what's believed to be the biggest community`owned solar

:31:28.:31:31.

farm in the world. More on that shortly. First let's

:31:32.:31:34.

meet the two politicians who'll be with me for the next 20 minutes.

:31:35.:31:36.

Caroline Dinenage is the Conservative MP for Gosport.

:31:37.:31:39.

Welcome, Caroline. And Ray Finch is leader of the UKIP group on

:31:40.:31:42.

Hampshire County Council. Big news this week is Maria Miller's

:31:43.:31:45.

72`word apology over the inquiry into her expense claims.

:31:46.:31:50.

The report resulted from an allegation made by the member for

:31:51.:31:56.

Bassetlaw. The committee has dismissed his allegation. The

:31:57.:31:59.

committee has recommended that I apologise to the House for my

:32:00.:32:01.

attitude to the commissioner's enquiries and I, of course,

:32:02.:32:10.

unreservedly apologise. I fully accept the recommendations of the

:32:11.:32:12.

committee and thank them for bringing this matter to an end.

:32:13.:32:19.

Thank you. Unreserved? Not really fulsome.

:32:20.:32:24.

Should she have resigned, Ray Finch? Obviously. If you had a real job and

:32:25.:32:29.

you had been caught doing that, you'd have been gone. And they would

:32:30.:32:33.

probably have got the scuffers into you as well. Caroline, this was a

:32:34.:32:38.

committee of MPs that looked at the Commissioner's report that said,

:32:39.:32:40.

"Pay back ?45,000," which would have been a resignation thing, and said,

:32:41.:32:44.

"No, we will just just accept the 5,800 she is offering." I mean, this

:32:45.:32:50.

is back to the bad old days, isn't it? This is a committee of MPs who

:32:51.:32:53.

have found other people guilty and made them pay back a lot of money

:32:54.:32:59.

before. I haven't been into the ins and outs of this but the fact is,

:33:00.:33:03.

she has apologised, paid back the money they deemed she was owing.

:33:04.:33:06.

And, actually, as MPs who came in after 2010, I think the most

:33:07.:33:09.

important thing about this is that this would not be possible any more.

:33:10.:33:12.

Actually, this whole subject is very toxic and what people would much

:33:13.:33:15.

rather know is that people cannot claim for mortgages any more, that

:33:16.:33:19.

the expenses thing is far more rigid and checkable these days and that

:33:20.:33:22.

MPs are moving on and doing their job properly. You know because you

:33:23.:33:29.

saw that whole expenses thing from the outside that, from Westminster

:33:30.:33:33.

now, there are some of those old MPs who may see it differently. They may

:33:34.:33:36.

not quite understand the impact it has? There is also a new tranche of

:33:37.:33:42.

MPs who came in after 2010 and as you say, saw it exactly from the

:33:43.:33:45.

outside, and would complete the rail against claiming anything

:33:46.:33:47.

inappropriate because we have been there, we have lived it and been the

:33:48.:33:51.

taxpayers that have to pick up the cost. So what she did, surely, is

:33:52.:33:56.

not enough? That apology and the support that David Cameron is giving

:33:57.:33:59.

her, should he be be giving someone more support when they have been

:34:00.:34:06.

criticised? As I say, I have not read the report, I don't know the

:34:07.:34:09.

the ins and outs, but she has paid back ?6,000, she has done this

:34:10.:34:12.

apology. I don't think people generally want to see MPs falling on

:34:13.:34:15.

their swords and making "poor me" statements in the House of Commons.

:34:16.:34:20.

She made a straightforward apology and she has paid back some money.

:34:21.:34:24.

And I think, actually, people would rather see her now just get on with

:34:25.:34:28.

the job. I think people of Basingstoke would like to see the

:34:29.:34:31.

same sort of treatment as an average person would get if they claimed a

:34:32.:34:35.

lot of money and then it turned out that they should not have had that

:34:36.:34:40.

money. She says it was a mistake that she claimed an extra ?6,000

:34:41.:34:43.

because she didn't realise interest rates had gone down. We all knew

:34:44.:34:48.

interest rates had gone down! You should have Maria sat here rather

:34:49.:34:52.

than me but all I can say is that I have not read the report but she has

:34:53.:34:56.

paid the money back and she has apologised and I think the main key

:34:57.:35:05.

point is this cannot happen now. MPs as of 2010 couldn't make such

:35:06.:35:09.

claims. That is true, isn't it? One of the main things is that when the

:35:10.:35:12.

Telegraph investigated this, they were called by David Cameron's

:35:13.:35:15.

office to say, "You do know she is in charge of the Leveson report,

:35:16.:35:21.

don't you?" Frankly, the Government threatened... You don't think it

:35:22.:35:25.

smells right? No. Frankly, if the media is not fit to govern itself,

:35:26.:35:29.

why are politicians fit to govern themselves? One could equally say

:35:30.:35:36.

that the reason the newspapers are going crazy over this is because she

:35:37.:35:39.

is the Secretary of State that governed Leveson. And she is the one

:35:40.:35:43.

who stopped the phone hacking of missing people.

:35:44.:35:47.

When your electricity bill drops on the doormat, it can often seem as if

:35:48.:35:51.

you're being invited to buy a large stake in the energy company. But

:35:52.:35:55.

suppose you actually did own a share of the electricity generating plant?

:35:56.:35:58.

The Government's quite keen we should all get involved in community

:35:59.:36:01.

renewables as they're called ` and as our Oxfordshire political

:36:02.:36:03.

reporter, Helen Catt, has been finding out, Oxfordshire is a bit of

:36:04.:36:07.

a leading light in that. If you'll pardon the pun.

:36:08.:36:20.

This is Zeus, one of five community owned wind turbines steadily making

:36:21.:36:23.

energy in a field in south`west Hertfordshire. In his mighty Shadow

:36:24.:36:27.

is what is thought to be the largest solar farm in the world to be built,

:36:28.:36:34.

owned and run by ordinary people. What sort of people invest in a farm

:36:35.:36:40.

like this? All sorts. We have 650 members or so come from the local

:36:41.:36:46.

area, from Oxfordshire and a very high proportion from the villages

:36:47.:36:54.

roundabout. Everyone sees energy as being delivered by foreign`owned

:36:55.:36:58.

multinationals and people are excited to have the opportunity to

:36:59.:37:01.

install their own project and to be able to generate electors give

:37:02.:37:05.

themselves rather than being dependent on others. In January, the

:37:06.:37:12.

Government published its first ever Trinity energy strategy. There is a

:37:13.:37:20.

support unit making it easier for committees to access funding. Over

:37:21.:37:22.

there is one of the reasons so much effort is being put into generating

:37:23.:37:31.

electricity in new ways. That is Didcot A power station. It closed

:37:32.:37:34.

recently and the firm that ran it did not want to convert it to new

:37:35.:37:44.

European standards. The total output of renewables is excited to be

:37:45.:37:50.

enough to run a million homes by 2020. That is half of what Didcot A

:37:51.:37:57.

could produce. Everybody needs to take action to make this happen. It

:37:58.:38:05.

is a necessary feature of the transition to a new energy system to

:38:06.:38:10.

have communities and to have real people involved. The Low Carbon Hub

:38:11.:38:19.

has been involved in the most recent project, the first hydro`screw in

:38:20.:38:29.

the region. We looked at solar panels and purchasing them

:38:30.:38:39.

ourselves. We could not make a case for buying them ourselves rather

:38:40.:38:41.

than a new bus, which is what we want. We contacted Low Carbon Hub,

:38:42.:38:48.

who suggested we went the panels was the only risk to us was able during

:38:49.:38:54.

thousands of holes in our roof. It seemed too good to turn down. The

:38:55.:38:58.

beauty is that anything we generate we use on`site straightaway, so we

:38:59.:39:02.

draw less power from the grid. Over the weekend, we're not drawing any

:39:03.:39:06.

power and we are selling back to the grid, which is good. While fake

:39:07.:39:13.

falcons and monkey noises are designed to scare off the birds, it

:39:14.:39:16.

is the prospect of panels like these in green fields that this

:39:17.:39:20.

frightening countryside campaigners. What we would be concerned about is

:39:21.:39:24.

that where ever people go in the countryside, their view is spoiled

:39:25.:39:28.

by one of these effectively large`scale industrial units. They

:39:29.:39:33.

are ruining the view but also taking up the agricultural land. We would

:39:34.:39:38.

look more sympathetically ornate community owned scheme because we do

:39:39.:39:41.

feel that people would be very genuine rather than trying to do it

:39:42.:39:45.

for profit. Nonetheless, the visual impact remains and we'll prefer to

:39:46.:39:51.

work with communities to find appropriate size that we would all

:39:52.:39:56.

be happy with. It does take a lot of panels to produce a significant

:39:57.:39:58.

amount of energies. I'm told the better auditions for these panels to

:39:59.:40:02.

work in our bright sunlight on a cold day and at its peak this field

:40:03.:40:07.

can produce five megawatts, enough to power 2000 kettles or 50,000

:40:08.:40:12.

desktop computers. None of those kettles or computers are powered

:40:13.:40:21.

directive on their panels. Our six and 50 members would like to buy the

:40:22.:40:24.

power this produces but at the moment the regulatory system for the

:40:25.:40:28.

energy market has been designed around the big supply companies and

:40:29.:40:32.

it does not suit small independent riders like us. That is something

:40:33.:40:37.

the Government will look at along with Ofgem.

:40:38.:40:45.

Where are we with energy policy and the targets? 10% of German domestic

:40:46.:40:58.

heating is renewable. In Britain, it is 1%. Is it possible to reach the

:40:59.:41:02.

target in six years? We are in a difficult position that we inherited

:41:03.:41:09.

from the previous government. Only Luxembourg and Malta are the lowest

:41:10.:41:11.

in terms of renewables. Our output has gone up by 60% under this

:41:12.:41:17.

government. Our energy production is to be as diverse as possible, so we

:41:18.:41:21.

are building the first nuclear power station in 30 years as well as

:41:22.:41:25.

investing in renewables and in these community schemes as well. Does a

:41:26.:41:29.

community owned scheme make a difference? If the community are

:41:30.:41:35.

paying for it, fabulous, if the taxpayer across the country is

:41:36.:41:40.

paying for it, then no. Actually, your policy is more to do with the

:41:41.:41:44.

subsidy than it is to do with climate change? Climate change, the

:41:45.:41:49.

climate is away changing comic toys has the whistle blew. So you don't

:41:50.:41:52.

really think that we need to be fighting climate change in the UK?

:41:53.:41:57.

We need to adapt to the climate as it changes, we always do, we all is

:41:58.:42:02.

have done. 400 years ago, there was frost fairs on the Thames. 1600

:42:03.:42:07.

years before that, the Romans were growing grapes on Hadrian 's Wall.

:42:08.:42:13.

That sort of attitude, to people who are worried about climate change,

:42:14.:42:20.

who while concerned about... I am more concerned about jobs. If China

:42:21.:42:29.

and India are producing new coal powered power plants... Should we

:42:30.:42:42.

showed does macro should we be showing the lead by losing jobs? If

:42:43.:42:51.

you are surrounded by water, you need to be mindful of the effect of

:42:52.:42:59.

any kind of global changes. These kinds of community projects, where

:43:00.:43:02.

people are seeing the benefit in reduced energy bills and when the

:43:03.:43:06.

solar powers are rooms and so on, when they are not in green fields,

:43:07.:43:10.

anything like that that will reduce energy bills but also help the

:43:11.:43:14.

environment is only going to be a good thing.

:43:15.:43:16.

If you've been watching the show in recent weeks you'll know that, as

:43:17.:43:20.

part of our coverage of the European elections, we've been talking to

:43:21.:43:22.

MEPs from the five parties with representatives from our region.

:43:23.:43:26.

We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives and UKIP.

:43:27.:43:33.

This week, it's the turn of Labour. We have been the ones campaigning on

:43:34.:43:38.

climate change. Some of the Conservatives don't actually believe

:43:39.:43:41.

that climate change exists. We have been the one who had dealt with

:43:42.:43:45.

things like horse meat and food labelling, we have been instrumental

:43:46.:43:49.

in that. We absolutely have been the ones who pushed banking reform.

:43:50.:43:54.

These major things that have come out of the EU have actually been led

:43:55.:43:58.

by Labour representatives and socialist representatives. Mary

:43:59.:44:03.

Honeyball is one of the longest serving Labour MEPs will stop in

:44:04.:44:06.

many areas of life, the European Union has achieved a great year. We

:44:07.:44:12.

have had a long history in the Labour Party here of looking at

:44:13.:44:15.

tobacco products that has been a long`running issue in the European

:44:16.:44:19.

Parliament. One of the things that we have done recently is to take

:44:20.:44:23.

measures against tobacco advertising for children and young people, so we

:44:24.:44:30.

work to end menthol cigarettes and to end slimline cigarettes and do do

:44:31.:44:35.

something about e`cigarette as well. That has been one of the major

:44:36.:44:40.

things we have achieved. There are more e`cigarettes around. Is the

:44:41.:44:45.

European Union the best place to be taking action on that? It is

:44:46.:44:51.

definitely for the European Parliament, because it is a

:44:52.:44:55.

cross`border issue. You by cigarettes across EU you and across

:44:56.:44:58.

the world, so it does need to be taken at a European level it is we

:44:59.:45:03.

do have an internal single market. It makes that kind of legislation

:45:04.:45:08.

even more important. Isn't the public opinion at the moment more

:45:09.:45:10.

about getting powers back, keeping our sovereignty, rather than ceding

:45:11.:45:19.

sovereignty. It is a difficult talking about ceding sovereignty.

:45:20.:45:23.

We're talking about competencies we have at a European level. On

:45:24.:45:28.

immigration, people want tighter control of their borders. They are

:45:29.:45:34.

calling for tighter border controls from non`EU countries. And from EU

:45:35.:45:41.

countries as well stop all across Europe, and this was as well, people

:45:42.:45:46.

are saying let us do what is best for our country. The original free

:45:47.:45:50.

movement of labour which was set up when the common market was only six

:45:51.:45:56.

memo states, it is rather different now `` six member states. We need to

:45:57.:46:01.

start looking at it. It should still remain a principal because if you

:46:02.:46:09.

need to have a single market, you need to make sure that operates

:46:10.:46:12.

properly and free movement of labour is part of that to create a level

:46:13.:46:17.

playing field and make sure people will go where the skills are needed.

:46:18.:46:20.

There is a good argument for maintaining free movement of labour.

:46:21.:46:26.

What do you think the members who will be elected will be doing? There

:46:27.:46:31.

is still the financial crisis, that is the big crisis, the cost of

:46:32.:46:36.

living crisis was that is what we will be dealing with. We need

:46:37.:46:39.

financial prudence we need to deal with it in a reasonable fashion but

:46:40.:46:43.

we also need to create jobs and we need growth to get out of the

:46:44.:46:44.

financial problems. And next week we'll be hearing from

:46:45.:46:54.

the Green Party. Now, as campaigning for that

:46:55.:46:57.

election and for the local elections gets underway, we'd like to set you

:46:58.:47:00.

a bit of a challenge. Selfies seem to be all the rage in politics at

:47:01.:47:04.

the moment, but you don't have to be the President of the United States

:47:05.:47:08.

or the Danish Prime Minister to get in on the act. So we want you to

:47:09.:47:13.

take a snap of yourself with a politician who's come to canvass for

:47:14.:47:16.

your vote. Or if you're a politician out canvassing, you can send us a

:47:17.:47:20.

shot with a constituent ` but it does have to be with a real voter,

:47:21.:47:24.

mind, not one of your staff! Just to get you going, I snapped myself with

:47:25.:47:27.

our two guests before we started the programme.

:47:28.:47:36.

That is in make up. That is a make up, not no make up selfie. So over

:47:37.:47:42.

to you ` when you've got one, tweet it with the hashtag snapapolitician.

:47:43.:47:46.

Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60

:47:47.:47:47.

seconds. Changes are being made at tourist

:47:48.:47:57.

attractions in the region to encourage more Chinese visitors.

:47:58.:48:01.

Blenheim Palace among those who have signed up to the Great China Welcome

:48:02.:48:06.

Charter. Imports from the Far East have helped Southampton Port expand.

:48:07.:48:09.

To take the largest container ships, they have had to dredge a 25`mile

:48:10.:48:15.

channel. We are used to berths like this in China. We are lucky now to

:48:16.:48:21.

have one like that in Southampton. In Nepal, Britain still think it is

:48:22.:48:24.

an imperial power according to Gurkhas from Aldershot in Parliament

:48:25.:48:30.

demanding better pensions. The British officers and their wives are

:48:31.:48:33.

still referred to as Saabs and Memsaabs. No Mrs whatever, you know?

:48:34.:48:36.

Closer to home, a backlog in maintaining the South's roads is now

:48:37.:48:41.

double the national average. Privatising probation services is a

:48:42.:48:43.

dangerous social experiment, according to staff who walked out in

:48:44.:48:47.

Oxford. And there are fears about the use of

:48:48.:48:50.

volunteer lock keepers on the Thames but the Environment Agency says it

:48:51.:48:52.

is not about saving money. Saving money he, all of the money is

:48:53.:49:06.

in China! They have some huge boats. You had some victory in a

:49:07.:49:10.

campaign against the MoD, is that right, because they would only pay

:49:11.:49:13.

for car travel but not for the ferry in Gosport? That is for the little

:49:14.:49:18.

staff travelling between naval bases, they would not pay for the

:49:19.:49:27.

very. After couple of years of battling, I got them to change their

:49:28.:49:30.

mind so they can take the ferry instead. Much more environmentally

:49:31.:49:35.

friendly. You would approve of Nick versus Nigel, that he has done well.

:49:36.:49:43.

It was Nick's only chance, to paint himself as Europe man. He is now

:49:44.:49:53.

floating facedown. Everyone wants a bit of the Lib Dems. We will see at

:49:54.:49:59.

the election. Should David Cameron have been part of this? I didn't see

:50:00.:50:05.

it, I was coming back from Westminster on the train. They are

:50:06.:50:08.

very extreme parties and most voters want something slightly more down

:50:09.:50:11.

the middle. Are the Liberal Democrats extreme? They are since

:50:12.:50:16.

they have been in the Coalition. And yourselves? No, we are the voice of

:50:17.:50:27.

reason. We have seen a lot of more from UKIP. If more MEPs do get in,

:50:28.:50:33.

they are better than the ones that are at the moment, Nick Wright is

:50:34.:50:39.

only got 44% attendance. That is better than David Cameron in our

:50:40.:50:46.

Parliament! That's the Sunday Politics in the

:50:47.:50:49.

South. Thanks to my guests, Caroline Dinenage and Ray Finch. Don't forget

:50:50.:50:55.

to get shooting those selfies with politicians and tweet them with the

:50:56.:51:03.

hashtag snapapolitician. For now, though, it's back to Andrew.

:51:04.:51:07.

Dobson. Tim Donovan is back in the chair next week. And with that, back

:51:08.:51:17.

to Andrew. Welcome back and time now to get more from our panel. So they

:51:18.:51:26.

can justify their meagre patents. This cost of living mantra will last

:51:27.:51:31.

all the way until the election. Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is

:51:32.:51:36.

onto something and for most of this Parliament, inflation has

:51:37.:51:42.

outstripped wages. That is going to go the other way and wages will

:51:43.:51:46.

rise, to which you say Ed Miliband has nothing to say. He says if you

:51:47.:51:51.

think people are going to feel better in the blink of an eye, you

:51:52.:51:55.

are a Conservative and do not understand the depth of this and he

:51:56.:51:59.

is taking the message from a presidential election in America in

:52:00.:52:03.

2012 and make Romney was ahead on some of the economic indicators but

:52:04.:52:08.

Barack Obama was ahead on the key one, do you believe this candidate

:52:09.:52:13.

will make your family's life better? The message that Ed Miliband

:52:14.:52:16.

will try to say is the next election is about whose side are you on? And

:52:17.:52:23.

he believes Labour will be on the side of more voters than

:52:24.:52:27.

conservatives. It would be crazy for Labour not to talk about the cost of

:52:28.:52:32.

living because even if wages exceed inflation next year, it is not as if

:52:33.:52:35.

voters will walk around feeling like Imelda Marcos, they will still feel

:52:36.:52:40.

as if they were struggling and not just compared... Retail sales are

:52:41.:52:46.

slowing? That is not the sign of palpable disparity. Circumstances

:52:47.:52:52.

are better than three years ago but not better than five years ago. The

:52:53.:52:58.

Reagan question will still be employed, are you better off than at

:52:59.:53:05.

the last election? But things in America were actually getting worse

:53:06.:53:08.

when he asked that. I covered that election, that is why it resonated

:53:09.:53:15.

and they did get worse. The Ayatollah had quadrupled the price

:53:16.:53:21.

of oil. This is based on things getting relatively better, after a

:53:22.:53:24.

very long wait, so the cost of living critique will have to adapt?

:53:25.:53:30.

It will but it gets out of a very sticky spot and the IFS says wages

:53:31.:53:36.

will not outstrip inflation and by that time they can start talking

:53:37.:53:40.

about other things, plans for the railways and tuition fees and at the

:53:41.:53:45.

moment, everything is up for grabs. Labour know that every time they

:53:46.:53:47.

talk about something they want to do, the question is, how do you pay

:53:48.:53:53.

for it? They can talk about the economy and they don't have

:53:54.:53:56.

substantial things to say. Is it true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was

:53:57.:54:02.

going to make a major announcement on benefit cheats? Or something to

:54:03.:54:06.

do with that this morning? But he decided against it because of the

:54:07.:54:11.

tobacco over Maria Miller? It would be very odd to go on to The Andrew

:54:12.:54:15.

Marr Show to have a chat and see what he is having for lunch. Patrick

:54:16.:54:19.

went from the Guardian said he was going to set out higher financial

:54:20.:54:24.

penalty phase for providing inaccurate information in claims.

:54:25.:54:27.

This is a bad day to do that, given that MP expenses are treated far

:54:28.:54:34.

more lenient the than any one from Joe public. That would be

:54:35.:54:40.

fascinating, if true. And he is making a very big speech on well for

:54:41.:54:44.

tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick went at the Guardian, he has proper

:54:45.:54:50.

sized on welfare matters and he tends to know what is going on. But

:54:51.:54:54.

it would be deeply unfortunate if that was the message today. How can

:54:55.:54:59.

he make a speech that has anything about cracking down on benefit

:55:00.:55:02.

claimants? Not today but I am not sure tomorrow. Do you get the

:55:03.:55:11.

impression that nobody in both main parties is very confident of winning

:55:12.:55:15.

in 2015? I column last week said the result, the most likely result from

:55:16.:55:20.

one year on is another hung parliament and which government

:55:21.:55:25.

results from that depends on the mathematical specifics of whether

:55:26.:55:29.

the Tories can do a deal as well as Labour, leaving everything in the

:55:30.:55:33.

hands of Nick Clegg or whether one party can do a straightforward deal

:55:34.:55:36.

but I do not detect any sense of exuberance or confidence in either

:55:37.:55:43.

camp. And the Tories are still shooting themselves over losing the

:55:44.:55:46.

boundary commission reforms because that was going to net them 20 seats

:55:47.:55:50.

and they lost that because they messed up the House of Lords reform

:55:51.:55:53.

and there are still furious with themselves. The former US President,

:55:54.:55:57.

George W Bush, has been a busy boy and here at the Sunday Politics we

:55:58.:56:00.

thought you'd like to see the results of his artistic endeavours.

:56:01.:56:03.

Time for the gallery. I was a prize to find myself saying,

:56:04.:56:51.

some of these are not bad! -- surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like

:56:52.:56:58.

the one of Tony Blair but his early ones of dogs, to be in the presence

:56:59.:57:04.

of the master is to see his portrait of a Joanne Love. He is not of the

:57:05.:57:11.

Turner prize but I was surprised. He gets the mask of Vladimir Putin,

:57:12.:57:16.

also Tony Blair. I was impressed that he did not allow personal or

:57:17.:57:19.

political grudges to influence his artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes

:57:20.:57:27.

out of this incredibly well! And Angela Merkel comes out

:57:28.:57:29.

astonishingly well. Quite generous as well. Tony Blair is the best one

:57:30.:57:36.

and the reason is he had the closest relationship with them and he has

:57:37.:57:40.

talked about this portrait, saying he was quite fond of him and you can

:57:41.:57:45.

see that. These are awful, they would not get you an A-level but you

:57:46.:57:49.

must admire him to have the guts to do this, and display them publicly!

:57:50.:57:58.

An A-level? Just doing joined up numbers gets you that these days!

:57:59.:58:04.

What do you do when you retire? This is less embarrassing than some of

:58:05.:58:07.

the other things people have done. As good as Churchill? I don't

:58:08.:58:15.

know... No! Churchill was brilliant! And on that! That's all for today.

:58:16.:58:20.

Tune into BBC Two every day at lunchtime this week for the Daily

:58:21.:58:23.

Politics. And we'll be back at the later time of 2:30pm next Sunday

:58:24.:58:26.

after the London Marathon. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

:58:27.:58:28.

Politics. International teams searching for

:58:29.:59:58.

the missing Malaysian airliner are investigating

:59:59.:59:59.

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