13/04/2014 Sunday Politics South


13/04/2014

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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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In the South: councils were tweeting commentators.

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In the South: councils were tweeting their wellies off during the recent

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floods with information about where was underwater. But are the people

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they needed to reach actually on social media?

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newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not

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impartial about informing people of local services.

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So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next

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thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections.

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Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives

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in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of

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MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and

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Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.

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In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the

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elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.

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And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick

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reminder of what all the fuss is about.

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The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on

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Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the

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vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are

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751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The

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European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners

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and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and

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the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

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caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

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regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

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Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

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relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

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a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

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referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.

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Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

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MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

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really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

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Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,

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vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

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fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

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patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

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roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

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with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

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Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

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Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

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example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

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Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

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to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

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of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

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Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

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Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

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he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

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him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

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gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

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supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

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change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

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our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

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not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

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immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

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centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

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pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

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three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

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and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

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and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

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only this week the office for National said that they did not

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collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

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people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

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of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

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the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

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accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

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the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

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EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

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to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

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positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

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will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

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Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

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really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

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thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

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now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

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and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And

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that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

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leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

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Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

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you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

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today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

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work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

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wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

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backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

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not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

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come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

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represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

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Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

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character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

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and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

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between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

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time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

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trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

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deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

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States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

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favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

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moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

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have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

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coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

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How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

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Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

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in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

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spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

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undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

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speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

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Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

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peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

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sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

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Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

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doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

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someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:44.:19:47.

peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

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admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

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Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

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don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

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said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:09.:20:11.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

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but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:18.:20:22.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

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over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

:20:27.:20:30.

what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:31.:20:35.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:36.:20:40.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

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keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:47.:20:53.

Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

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issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

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Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

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foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

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important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:12.:21:19.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:20.:21:25.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:26.:21:32.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:33.:21:37.

opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:38.:21:42.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

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on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

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We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:55.:21:59.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

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is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

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to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

:22:10.:22:13.

in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

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who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

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important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

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that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

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true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

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controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

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Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

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"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

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Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

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mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

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must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

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awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

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don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:09.:23:13.

for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

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You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

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dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

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quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

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they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

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European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

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jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

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Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

:23:46.:23:50.

the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to

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try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

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Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

:24:00.:24:01.

in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

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keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

:24:07.:24:11.

Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

:24:12.:24:15.

retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:16.:24:22.

retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:23.:24:26.

-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:27.:24:29.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:30.:24:36.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:37.:24:39.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:40.:24:44.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:45.:24:47.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:48.:24:50.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:51.:24:54.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:55.:24:59.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:00.:25:04.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:05.:25:09.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:10.:25:15.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:16.:25:18.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:19.:25:24.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?

:25:25.:25:28.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:29.:25:31.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:32.:25:34.

work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our

:25:35.:25:38.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:39.:25:44.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:45.:25:50.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:51.:25:56.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The

:25:57.:26:03.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:04.:26:09.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:10.:26:13.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:14.:26:17.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:18.:26:22.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:23.:26:28.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:29.:26:34.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We

:26:35.:26:40.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:41.:26:45.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:46.:26:49.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:50.:26:54.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:55.:26:59.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:00.:27:04.

attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:05.:27:07.

up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:08.:27:11.

UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:12.:27:16.

didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:17.:27:21.

decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:22.:27:25.

representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:26.:27:32.

saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:33.:27:38.

quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:39.:27:42.

and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:43.:27:48.

you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:49.:27:53.

jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:27:54.:27:59.

?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:28:00.:28:02.

getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:03.:28:06.

secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:07.:28:11.

wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:12.:28:16.

who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:17.:28:21.

that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:22.:28:25.

allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:26.:28:28.

when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:29.:28:32.

using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:33.:28:39.

were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:40.:28:44.

our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:45.:28:50.

The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:51.:28:52.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:53.:28:57.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:28:58.:29:01.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:02.:29:05.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:06.:29:10.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:11.:29:14.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:15.:29:20.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We

:29:21.:29:25.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:26.:29:28.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:29.:29:33.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:34.:29:39.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:40.:29:45.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's

:29:46.:29:51.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:52.:29:57.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:58.:30:03.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:04.:30:07.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:08.:30:10.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:11.:30:15.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:16.:30:18.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:19.:30:23.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:24.:30:27.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:28.:30:32.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:33.:30:36.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:37.:30:41.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5

:30:42.:30:47.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:48.:30:51.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:52.:30:56.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:57.:30:59.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:00.:31:02.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:03.:31:06.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:07.:31:15.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He

:31:16.:31:23.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:24.:31:27.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:28.:31:30.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:31.:31:35.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:36.:31:41.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:42.:31:48.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:49.:31:52.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:53.:31:56.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:57.:32:04.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:05.:32:08.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:09.:32:13.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It

:32:14.:32:16.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:17.:32:20.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:21.:32:24.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:25.:32:28.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:29.:32:33.

Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:34.:32:40.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:41.:32:45.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:46.:32:50.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:51.:32:55.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:56.:33:00.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:01.:33:07.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:08.:33:12.

EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:13.:33:16.

that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:17.:33:20.

the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:21.:33:28.

some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:29.:33:36.

sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:37.:33:39.

a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:40.:33:46.

the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:47.:33:52.

to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:53.:33:56.

national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:33:57.:33:59.

challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:34:00.:34:07.

good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:08.:34:13.

not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:14.:34:16.

success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:17.:34:23.

the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:24.:34:30.

not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:31.:34:33.

on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:34.:34:37.

future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:38.:34:42.

with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd

:34:43.:34:46.

tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:47.:34:51.

stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:52.:34:57.

Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:34:58.:35:01.

enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:02.:35:05.

economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:06.:35:09.

exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:10.:35:14.

services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:15.:35:20.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:21.:35:24.

after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:25.:35:30.

from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:31.:35:34.

goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:35.:35:38.

to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:39.:35:45.

me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:46.:35:53.

looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:54.:35:56.

anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:35:57.:36:06.

irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:07.:36:10.

reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:11.:36:12.

anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:13.:36:16.

doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:17.:36:19.

sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:20.:36:23.

pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:24.:36:29.

could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:30.:36:32.

would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:33.:36:37.

overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:38.:36:43.

sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:44.:36:47.

but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:48.:36:52.

Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:36:53.:36:59.

outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:00.:37:07.

inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:08.:37:13.

putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:14.:37:18.

have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:19.:37:22.

think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:23.:37:26.

will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:27.:37:29.

It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:30.:37:32.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:33.:37:35.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:36.:37:45.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty Welcome to Sunday Politics South `

:37:46.:37:47.

my name's Peter Henley. On today's show, social media is all the rage

:37:48.:37:52.

amongst councils. It's free, and in the recent floods they were

:37:53.:37:54.

enthusiastically sending out updates on where was flooded. But are there

:37:55.:37:58.

enough people at the receiving end to make it worthwhile?

:37:59.:38:02.

More on that shortly. First, let's meet the two politicians who'll be

:38:03.:38:06.

with me for the next 20 minutes. Layla Moran is the Liberal Democrat

:38:07.:38:08.

prospective parliamentary candidate for Oxford West and Abingdon, and

:38:09.:38:11.

Caroline Nokes is the Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North.

:38:12.:38:21.

Welcome both. Hello, Peter. And as with last week, the big drama this

:38:22.:38:24.

week featured the Culture Secretary Maria Miller, her expenses conundrum

:38:25.:38:26.

and then her sudden resignation from the cabinet.

:38:27.:38:29.

The saga began 16 months ago, with a complaint from Labour MP John Mann

:38:30.:38:32.

to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards that she had used

:38:33.:38:35.

taxpayers' money to subsidise her parents living in a second home in

:38:36.:38:40.

London. Just over a week ago, the standards committee's report cleared

:38:41.:38:43.

her of that, but did insist she repay ?5,800 in overclaimed expenses

:38:44.:38:46.

and make an apology to the house for her attitude during the committee's

:38:47.:38:52.

enquiry. The committee has recommended that I apologise to the

:38:53.:38:55.

house for my attitude to the commissioners' enquiries, and I, of

:38:56.:39:03.

course, unreservedly apologise. But at just 32 seconds long, the apology

:39:04.:39:06.

was soon seen is not sufficiently contrite. The calls for her

:39:07.:39:12.

resignation began, although the Prime Minister insisted on several

:39:13.:39:15.

occasions that she still had his full confidence.

:39:16.:39:18.

Maria Miller's doing an excellent job as Culture Secretary, and will

:39:19.:39:22.

continue to do that. If we look at this report, yes, of course these

:39:23.:39:25.

issues do matter, but she was cleared of the original allegation

:39:26.:39:29.

made against her. But the press had now scented blood,

:39:30.:39:32.

and Conservative backbenchers and even anonymous ministers were

:39:33.:39:35.

starting to get nervous about how all this was impacting on the

:39:36.:39:41.

party's electoral helps. Then, early on Wednesday, hours before PMQs,

:39:42.:39:43.

came the sudden announcement that Maria Miller had resigned as culture

:39:44.:39:48.

secretary. I hoped that I could stay, but it's

:39:49.:39:52.

become clear to me over the last few days that this has become an

:39:53.:39:54.

enormous distraction, and it's not right that I am distracting from the

:39:55.:39:57.

incredible achievements of this government. I've been a member of

:39:58.:40:00.

the Conservative Party for 30 years, and I want to make sure that my

:40:01.:40:04.

position is not in any way detracting from the achievements of

:40:05.:40:05.

the government. So, Caroline Nokes, why did she go?

:40:06.:40:21.

I think she went because she realised that there wasn't

:40:22.:40:23.

sufficient support for her to carry on, and people are understandably,

:40:24.:40:26.

even all these years on, still very angry about the expenses scandals

:40:27.:40:34.

and things that happened pre`2010. Justifiably angry? Absolutely

:40:35.:40:37.

justifiably angry, and I wasn't there before 2010, and I saw how

:40:38.:40:41.

angry people were in my own constituency about it, and I think

:40:42.:40:44.

it is absolutely imperative that we get over this, that people make

:40:45.:40:46.

heartfelt, sincere apologies, and do their best to try and restore

:40:47.:40:50.

confidence in their politicians. She should have made a heartfelt,

:40:51.:40:57.

sincere apology earlier, then? Yes, I think she should have done.

:40:58.:41:02.

Layla Moran, has this left David Cameron stronger or weaker, would

:41:03.:41:05.

you say? I think obviously weaker. It hasn't been a good week for him.

:41:06.:41:09.

Clearly he doesn't understand the public mood. If he had, he would

:41:10.:41:12.

have got rid of her earlier, actually. The whole thing is just so

:41:13.:41:15.

emotive for everyone. I've been out on doorsteps, and it is the number

:41:16.:41:19.

one thing that's brought up. And it is a plague on all of our houses,

:41:20.:41:23.

and it's up to all of us who are in or want to be in Parliament to make

:41:24.:41:27.

the case for integrity in this profession. It is partly why I want

:41:28.:41:30.

to stand as an MP. When I first joined the Liberal Democrats, that

:41:31.:41:34.

was one of the reasons why I stood, because I saw what was happening and

:41:35.:41:37.

I wanted to stand up for integrity. And people from 2010, your intake,

:41:38.:41:40.

were even more annoyed in some ways, weren't they, at Parliament, about

:41:41.:41:46.

this? I think the 2010 intake were particularly annoyed. We came in

:41:47.:41:49.

hoping there was going to be a clean sheet, and actually, there is still

:41:50.:41:52.

a very unfortunate hangover from what went on before. Paul Harvey,

:41:53.:41:55.

leader of the Labour group on Basingstoke Council is with us. She

:41:56.:41:58.

has resigned as a Cabinet Minister. Do you think she should continue as

:41:59.:42:02.

an MP? She has done the right thing this week by resigning as a Cabinet

:42:03.:42:06.

minister. It took her long enough, and it took David Cameron long

:42:07.:42:09.

enough to deal with the issue. I think that created a significant

:42:10.:42:12.

amount of anger locally, because it was a sense of saying, you don't get

:42:13.:42:15.

this. You're not listening and you don't understand. And that did

:42:16.:42:18.

tremendous damage, and I think if she listens to local people, local

:42:19.:42:20.

people have genuinely lost confidence in her, and she needs to

:42:21.:42:27.

reflect on that. In terms of going forward here, we have got to put

:42:28.:42:30.

this system right. There has got to be independent regulation and

:42:31.:42:32.

independent assessment of members of Parliament. It cannot be

:42:33.:42:35.

self`regulation any more. We just cannot have that. People have got to

:42:36.:42:38.

have trust and confidence. And in this case, this might be an example

:42:39.:42:41.

of where the Recall of Parliamentarians Bill would have

:42:42.:42:45.

come into force. For something like this, which is not just about what

:42:46.:42:48.

she ended up spending, but also about her attitude towards the whole

:42:49.:42:53.

thing. She has been pulled up for being out of order. You're in favour

:42:54.:42:59.

of recall. I've long supported my colleagues at Goldsmith on the issue

:43:00.:43:02.

of recall, but I think what we have to have is proper recall, where the

:43:03.:43:06.

power is in the hands of the local electors. I think it would be

:43:07.:43:10.

absolutely wrong to have a recall bill that put the power in the hands

:43:11.:43:14.

of fellow MPs. Constituency members should be judged by their own

:43:15.:43:16.

constituents, and I firmly believe should have the power within a

:43:17.:43:19.

parliamentary period to recall their MP if sufficient are concerned

:43:20.:43:27.

enough to do so. This has done damage to the

:43:28.:43:29.

Conservatives, and the other two here have talked about David Cameron

:43:30.:43:33.

suffering. Would you agree with that? Well, I think that Maria

:43:34.:43:37.

should have apologised and resigned last Thursday, and I think it is a

:43:38.:43:40.

very great shame that she didn't do so. However, I don't think we can

:43:41.:43:45.

allow this to undermine the very good work that David Cameron has

:43:46.:43:50.

been doing as Prime Minister. He hasn't handled this as well as he

:43:51.:43:54.

could have done. I think the Prime Minister showed commendable loyalty

:43:55.:43:56.

to a Cabinet minister. You have to remember that the report cleared her

:43:57.:44:00.

of the charges that a Labour MP had made against her, so I think it was

:44:01.:44:03.

a very difficult situation, and it's just a shame that Maria didn't

:44:04.:44:06.

resign earlier herself. Paul Harvey, partly she was caught in the

:44:07.:44:09.

crossfire from Leveson. Any Cabinet minister would have been turned over

:44:10.:44:12.

by the papers, wouldn't they, whoever the individual was?

:44:13.:44:16.

This is nobody else's fault but Maria's. She made those choices to

:44:17.:44:19.

obstruct the enquiry in the way that she did, that led to her 32`second

:44:20.:44:24.

apology that caused so much anger. The idea that you can just stand up

:44:25.:44:28.

and give 32 seconds of an apology came across as being contemptuous

:44:29.:44:31.

and arrogant, and that did not do her any favours. And then you look

:44:32.:44:34.

at the issues in the constituency. This has been an issue in

:44:35.:44:37.

Basingstoke since 2009, when she flipped her home. It isn't as if

:44:38.:44:41.

this is something new. This has been bubbling away, growing and growing

:44:42.:44:43.

and growing, and came to boiling point this week. And we have all

:44:44.:44:47.

been in the spotlight this week, as politicians, and what we have got to

:44:48.:44:51.

do is give people trust in what we do. They don't trust local

:44:52.:44:54.

councillors either? Well, it's what we do that matters. It really is.

:44:55.:44:58.

Our actions have got to be clear and open and upfront now in how we do

:44:59.:45:02.

our job. We look after what the constituents care about, housing,

:45:03.:45:04.

buses, all those issues that people care about in their daily lives.

:45:05.:45:08.

That's what we've got to be about, and the system at Westminster has

:45:09.:45:12.

got to be absolutely independent. MPs can no longer regulate

:45:13.:45:16.

themselves. I couldn't agree more, and David Cameron has really shot

:45:17.:45:19.

himself in the foot this week, because what Nigel Farage, in my

:45:20.:45:22.

opinion, is playing to is this distrust of politicians in general.

:45:23.:45:26.

As we know, the Conservatives are most likely to be defecting to UKIP.

:45:27.:45:32.

The fact that he couldn't read... They say they draw from all parties.

:45:33.:45:37.

They do, but as a proportion, it's more likely to be Tory. And this is

:45:38.:45:40.

another example of why people should be voting for UKIP, in the eyes of

:45:41.:45:44.

Farage, which of course, is rubbish, but there you are. UKIP are here as

:45:45.:45:48.

the people who are untainted by expenses.

:45:49.:45:52.

I mean, you can set aside some of what has happened in the European

:45:53.:45:55.

Parliament. As councillors in Hampshire, they are not claiming any

:45:56.:45:58.

expenses. Maybe as councillors in Hampshire,

:45:59.:46:01.

they're not claiming any expenses, but I think Mr Farage himself has

:46:02.:46:04.

admitted that he's claimed more than ?2 million in expenses, and has his

:46:05.:46:07.

wife on the payroll, despite pledging not to.

:46:08.:46:13.

And so, I do not think that UKIP's hands are clean when it comes to

:46:14.:46:16.

expenses, and I think that it's entirely opportunistic of UKIP to

:46:17.:46:29.

try to use this as Strange we ended up talking about

:46:30.:46:32.

them, though, isn't it? Paul, thanks for coming in.

:46:33.:46:34.

Social media ` everyone's doing it these days, aren't they? Or are

:46:35.:46:38.

they? Local councils have gone a bit wild in a frenzy of keeping

:46:39.:46:41.

residents informed via various online services. But just how many

:46:42.:46:44.

residents did they actually end up informing? Just how many are even

:46:45.:46:47.

online regularly, never mind using social media regularly? As our

:46:48.:46:49.

Berkshire political reporter Patrick O'Hagan reports, councils'

:46:50.:46:51.

enthusiasm could be a touch misplaced.

:46:52.:46:56.

Ah, the good old days. Bashing away at the keyboard, aching fingers,

:46:57.:47:02.

typos galore. Then you had to spend all your money on envelopes and

:47:03.:47:05.

stamps before heading out your nearest postbox. It all took so

:47:06.:47:07.

long. Thankfully, these days, we have the

:47:08.:47:13.

computer, the laptop, the smartphone, all of which allow us to

:47:14.:47:21.

send those all important e`mails. There it is. It's gone. Of course,

:47:22.:47:25.

millions of e`mails are sent out by people every day, but some would

:47:26.:47:28.

argue that e`mail is becoming old hat already. When the floods hit

:47:29.:47:35.

West Berkshire back in February, the council were swamped with calls.

:47:36.:47:38.

It used Twitter to tell people where they could get hold of sandbags,

:47:39.:47:41.

spreading the word on which roads were closed, and letting people know

:47:42.:47:44.

when the council's workers and other emergency staff would come round to

:47:45.:47:47.

help them. People were learning things from Twitter and then telling

:47:48.:47:50.

neighbours and friends what they had read on Twitter. In the absence of

:47:51.:48:02.

information, you get rumours. Often, those rumours are wrong, and Twitter

:48:03.:48:05.

has allowed us to say, no, we are definitely coming, or, we're going

:48:06.:48:08.

to do it this way, just to counteract false rumours. Media

:48:09.:48:12.

experts say that for public bodies like local authorities, social media

:48:13.:48:14.

is becoming increasingly useful in dealing with fast`moving crises like

:48:15.:48:18.

the recent flooding. When you think about why councils might want to use

:48:19.:48:21.

Twitter, they have a mechanism through which they can broadcast to

:48:22.:48:24.

a large number of people very quickly. When you think of a public

:48:25.:48:28.

sector organisation trying to e`mail everyone, the practicalities of that

:48:29.:48:36.

are very difficult. So what do people here make of the

:48:37.:48:39.

idea of their local council using social media? The majority of people

:48:40.:48:43.

do have Facebook and Twitter, and do follow people, so it's a cheap way

:48:44.:48:48.

of getting the message out. I think it's quite scary that sometimes

:48:49.:48:50.

people know things quicker by Facebook and that than by other

:48:51.:48:54.

ways. I mean, it's very fast. It's a grapevine. How many people use it my

:48:55.:48:59.

age, I don't know. You'll be getting the messages out to the youngsters,

:49:00.:49:02.

but not really to older people, I don't think.

:49:03.:49:06.

And that's something experts say local authorities need to keep front

:49:07.:49:10.

of mind when they are using social media. When you think about public

:49:11.:49:17.

emergencies, disasters, flooding, often people who need help from the

:49:18.:49:20.

authorities the most are not using the internet and not using social

:49:21.:49:25.

media. Twitter's very much a two`way street. Listening what where

:49:26.:49:34.

listening to what people are telling you can be just as important as what

:49:35.:49:37.

you're telling them. One good example was in Aldermaston, where a

:49:38.:49:40.

tree fell down and blocked the main road. A resident tweeted

:49:41.:49:43.

photographs. We were able to send out a contractor, and then that same

:49:44.:49:46.

resident took photographs which we were able to retweet to everybody,

:49:47.:49:49.

telling them what was going on with the clearing of the road will stop

:49:50.:49:52.

social media is free, and with council budgets feeling the squeeze,

:49:53.:49:56.

it's no wonder they are keen to use it.

:49:57.:49:58.

It's very, very tempting in a time when budgets are being tempted, to

:49:59.:50:01.

say, well, it doesn't cost is nothing, lots of people are using

:50:02.:50:04.

it. But there's always that risk that when you really, really need

:50:05.:50:07.

it, it doesn't work. Because you don't control it. And what's lost in

:50:08.:50:11.

some of the excitement is that, as the saying goes, the future is

:50:12.:50:13.

here, it's just not evenly distributed.

:50:14.:50:22.

Keen to exploit its possibilities, councils are increasing their social

:50:23.:50:26.

media presence. The next step is to find a way to target the people

:50:27.:50:31.

least likely to use it. Sad to see a moment pushing a body

:50:32.:50:35.

using a smartphone. Poor little child is being ignored! Isn't it

:50:36.:50:39.

easy to spend too much time on social media? Far too easy, and

:50:40.:50:43.

something that my daughter will always pick me up on, and say, could

:50:44.:50:48.

you not pay me more attention? But it plays a really important role, as

:50:49.:50:53.

the film shows. When we had floods in Oxford, it was vital we knew what

:50:54.:50:56.

was going on. You were looking on the websites, listening to the

:50:57.:51:01.

radio, but at the same time, the human connection of, I have been

:51:02.:51:05.

down this road and taken a picture, and now everyone knows before the

:51:06.:51:09.

news. That is crucial. Do you think some people are left out, though?

:51:10.:51:15.

Absolutely, and I am very conscious in my community that coverage of

:51:16.:51:19.

fast broadband is very poor and mobile coverage in some villages is

:51:20.:51:25.

exceptionally bad. So if you are reliant on the internet and social

:51:26.:51:28.

media for information, it will be a struggle. But most councils take a

:51:29.:51:33.

very pragmatic approach to trying to get information out by as many forms

:51:34.:51:39.

of media as possible. In some ways, it is a question of speeding up,

:51:40.:51:43.

maybe making them more efficient? I think you must access all forms of

:51:44.:51:48.

information. This question of the digital divide is a real one in this

:51:49.:51:54.

country, and I have the same problem, that in the villages, there

:51:55.:51:58.

are people without that access to information. You could argue that to

:51:59.:52:02.

access information, whether for jobs or welfare or whatever else, it is

:52:03.:52:07.

necessary in this modern world. It is a real issue. Thank you.

:52:08.:52:10.

If all that's got your social media juices going, don't forget to take

:52:11.:52:12.

part in our snapapolitician extravaganza. The idea is you take a

:52:13.:52:16.

selfie with a politician who's come round to canvass and then either

:52:17.:52:19.

tweet it to us at #snapapolitician, or email it to us at

:52:20.:52:26.

[email protected]. Here's one I prepared earlier with

:52:27.:52:30.

our guests to give you an idea of what we're on about. They are even

:52:31.:52:44.

being so relaxed about it! We'll even accept selfies from the

:52:45.:52:46.

politicians, but they have to include real voters and not just

:52:47.:52:49.

staff members. We've had a few already. John Moore seems to have

:52:50.:52:52.

met a slightly self`conscious Iain Duncan Smith down the shops, and

:52:53.:52:55.

managed to sell Commons Speaker and Buckingham MP John Bercow a cake.

:52:56.:52:58.

Hello, Mr Speaker, if you are watching. But the prize for most

:52:59.:53:01.

prolific snapper so far goes to Bob Smytherman, the Mayor of Worthing,

:53:02.:53:04.

who's sent us five so far, including one in a bath which we'll leave you

:53:05.:53:07.

to find online for yourselves! Just under six weeks till the

:53:08.:53:10.

European elections, and over the past few programmes we've been

:53:11.:53:13.

hearing from the parties who currently send MEPs to Brussels from

:53:14.:53:16.

the South. We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats,

:53:17.:53:19.

Conservatives, UKIP and Labour. Today's the final one, and it's the

:53:20.:53:20.

Green Party. This place matters, because we can

:53:21.:53:33.

use it for the common good. We need to change the way it works. But

:53:34.:53:39.

actually, we are better off in than we are out.

:53:40.:53:45.

Keith Taylor is one of only two British MEPs from the Green party.

:53:46.:53:49.

Until 2010, he was a councillor in Brighton, who took over from

:53:50.:53:53.

Caroline Lucas when she got her Westminster seat. I've never worked

:53:54.:53:59.

as hard in my life, actually, but it has been a fantastic opportunity to

:54:00.:54:02.

make a real difference, not only to the people of the region, but also

:54:03.:54:07.

as part of the European movement. How does it compare to Brighton and

:54:08.:54:11.

Hove Council? Is it easier or more difficult to get things done? The

:54:12.:54:16.

differences are obvious, but with Brighton and Hove Council, with

:54:17.:54:20.

local UK politics, it is very adversarial. People disagree with

:54:21.:54:26.

you because you are the wrong tribe, whereas here, in the European

:54:27.:54:32.

Parliament, the assumption is that your work is not done until you have

:54:33.:54:36.

got something resolved. One thing you have campaigned on its air

:54:37.:54:39.

quality, something which clearly needs concerted action, not just in

:54:40.:54:44.

one country. Have you managed to get things done there? Yes, absolutely.

:54:45.:54:49.

We have the year of hair in 2013, and as a result, I have been working

:54:50.:54:52.

alongside non`governmental organisation than lawyers in support

:54:53.:55:00.

of their action against the British government for the government's in

:55:01.:55:04.

action on air pollution. We actually need to tighten up the standards. We

:55:05.:55:09.

need to make them more global to follow the World Health Organisation

:55:10.:55:13.

recommendations about air pollution, and that needs to be for

:55:14.:55:18.

the benefit of everybody living in Europe. About fracking, as a lot of

:55:19.:55:26.

possibly Conservative supporters that have been against the European

:55:27.:55:30.

Union, who might support things. At that change things? Both Britain and

:55:31.:55:35.

Poland really want to see fracking proceed, irrespective of the fact

:55:36.:55:37.

that we aren't going to get any cheaper gas prices, the fact that it

:55:38.:55:43.

is going to run the risk of air pollution, water pollution, and huge

:55:44.:55:46.

disruption in the region of the south`east. The simple fact is, you

:55:47.:55:52.

can't regulate fracking safely. You are killing a very deep hole,

:55:53.:55:56.

cutting millions of gallons of water down its with toxic chemicals. How

:55:57.:56:01.

can you regulate against that? Will it be an election this year? Dead

:56:02.:56:08.

right it will, absolutely. As I say, do not vote for someone who supports

:56:09.:56:12.

fracking. On things like immigration, surely the way the vote

:56:13.:56:17.

has gone is about things like taking control of our own borders? There

:56:18.:56:21.

are many problems in the UK, but actually, immigration is not one of

:56:22.:56:25.

them. Migrants get blamed for the lack of affordable housing, for

:56:26.:56:28.

instance. Reason is not that we have got too many migrants. The reason is

:56:29.:56:34.

the governments, both Labour and coalition, have failed to put money

:56:35.:56:39.

into housing. We have a depressed construction industry, a depressed

:56:40.:56:43.

budget, so I think the public can actually make a decision based on

:56:44.:56:47.

the facts rather than what they read in populist scapegoating newspapers

:56:48.:56:52.

and political tracts. Peter Taylor from the Green Party.

:56:53.:57:02.

And why not see if you can spot a wannabe MEP out campaigning and send

:57:03.:57:05.

us a selfie with them to #snapapolitician?

:57:06.:57:07.

Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60

:57:08.:57:10.

seconds, this week a feast for fans of new technology, and old.

:57:11.:57:23.

Police use of Taser 's has more than doubled in parts of the cell. They

:57:24.:57:29.

are increasingly used to control Dangerous Dogs Act, and records

:57:30.:57:32.

reveal many more officers regularly carry them.

:57:33.:57:39.

Have you noticed those blue telephone boxes? It is back to the

:57:40.:57:44.

future for Dorset Police, with this Doctor Who style police box in

:57:45.:57:48.

Boston. Both a tourist attraction, Andy Grace the local bobbies.

:57:49.:57:52.

Meanwhile, down the coast, people in Purbeck have been getting huge bills

:57:53.:57:56.

when their mobile phones switched to French networks. Your phone will

:57:57.:58:02.

just grab the strongest signal. This more simple technology could save

:58:03.:58:05.

the lives of cyclists. Oxford University research shows

:58:06.:58:08.

that drivers identify the symbol faster. In that millisecond, this

:58:09.:58:14.

gives you time subconsciously and consciously to adjust.

:58:15.:58:18.

Unwell acres of this power station has been sold off for housing, they

:58:19.:58:22.

have started installing solar panels on Oxford council homes, giving

:58:23.:58:29.

tenants free electricity. Those are clever, they? And the

:58:30.:58:32.

solar panels are working well and not with? I am a big fan of that

:58:33.:58:38.

initiative. Anything that enables us to increase our renewable energy

:58:39.:58:43.

input, that is great. And 70% of Oxford cycles to work. Anything we

:58:44.:58:47.

can do to decrease the number of cycling deaths is a good thing.

:58:48.:58:52.

Those Tasers are nasty things. But defibrillators in schools is a

:58:53.:58:55.

campaign you have taken up? Absolutely. We had a nasty incident

:58:56.:59:00.

in a school in my constituency, but fortunately, the young man survived

:59:01.:59:04.

because the school already had a defibrillator. I am joining with a

:59:05.:59:07.

number of campaign groups up and down the country and in this region

:59:08.:59:10.

to encourage not just schools but all public buildings install public

:59:11.:59:16.

access defibrillators. You must use them quickly, that is the point of

:59:17.:59:20.

having them in the buildings? The first four minutes at crucial, and

:59:21.:59:25.

the survival rates plummet if you don't get to them with a

:59:26.:59:29.

defibrillator within four minutes. The new machines are fabulous,

:59:30.:59:32.

instructions as you go along, so a really important asset for our

:59:33.:59:40.

schools. URA teacher. Would people use that? I think they were, with

:59:41.:59:43.

the right training. We have a culture where teachers are told not

:59:44.:59:47.

to touch and all that, but we must be careful and make sure there are

:59:48.:59:51.

procedures in place. But I agree. I think it is a good thing. These are

:59:52.:59:55.

special ones, they took you through how to do it? Absolutely. In South

:59:56.:59:59.

Central Ambulance Service has a great scheme where they can be

:00:00.:00:02.

insecure boxes, they will give you the code when you dial 999 to get

:00:03.:00:06.

the box up the wall of the building, and they will talk you

:00:07.:00:09.

through every step of the process. Let's hope you spread the word about

:00:10.:00:13.

that a bit more. Thank you both for coming on this week.

:00:14.:00:15.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests Layla

:00:16.:00:19.

Moran and Caroline Nokes. Don't forget to keep snapping those

:00:20.:00:21.

politicians ` hashtag snapapolitician or there's the email

:00:22.:00:26.

address at the bottom of the screen. For now though it's back to Andrew.

:00:27.:00:37.

risk. We have run out of time. -- particular candidates. Back to you,

:00:38.:00:47.

Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the

:00:48.:00:50.

London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.

:00:51.:00:53.

Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.

:00:54.:01:04.

We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the

:01:05.:01:08.

debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to

:01:09.:01:13.

bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four

:01:14.:01:18.

parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know

:01:19.:01:21.

much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament

:01:22.:01:25.

works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of

:01:26.:01:34.

light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not

:01:35.:01:38.

going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing

:01:39.:01:44.

that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are

:01:45.:01:49.

not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks

:01:50.:01:55.

lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that

:01:56.:01:58.

because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP

:01:59.:02:04.

and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the

:02:05.:02:10.

issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these

:02:11.:02:14.

individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because

:02:15.:02:17.

these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of

:02:18.:02:22.

making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know

:02:23.:02:29.

the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong

:02:30.:02:32.

opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the

:02:33.:02:36.

immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at

:02:37.:02:43.

that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this

:02:44.:02:46.

European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on

:02:47.:02:49.

the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much

:02:50.:02:54.

from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these

:02:55.:02:57.

televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that

:02:58.:03:04.

Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each

:03:05.:03:11.

man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man

:03:12.:03:14.

can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an

:03:15.:03:21.

elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold

:03:22.:03:23.

the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse

:03:24.:03:27.

incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before

:03:28.:03:33.

the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much

:03:34.:03:35.

to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the

:03:36.:03:40.

elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against

:03:41.:03:44.

Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that

:03:45.:03:47.

format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the

:03:48.:03:55.

polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between

:03:56.:04:00.

UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and

:04:01.:04:04.

we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both

:04:05.:04:09.

of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news

:04:10.:04:13.

for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of

:04:14.:04:19.

the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre

:04:20.:04:25.

election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not

:04:26.:04:28.

clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too

:04:29.:04:34.

disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr

:04:35.:04:40.

Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars

:04:41.:04:47.

away, what are the consequences? I think there is a widespread

:04:48.:04:49.

expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come

:04:50.:04:55.

first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great

:04:56.:04:58.

deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is

:04:59.:05:02.

remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal

:05:03.:05:07.

leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently

:05:08.:05:14.

very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back

:05:15.:05:17.

to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was

:05:18.:05:23.

miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics

:05:24.:05:29.

that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come

:05:30.:05:34.

third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory

:05:35.:05:38.

backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,

:05:39.:05:42.

complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,

:05:43.:05:50.

I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron's

:05:51.:05:53.

personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on

:05:54.:05:57.

conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence

:05:58.:06:03.

of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls

:06:04.:06:10.

today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel

:06:11.:06:15.

Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster

:06:16.:06:22.

for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But

:06:23.:06:26.

he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great

:06:27.:06:32.

deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good

:06:33.:06:38.

thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.

:06:39.:06:43.

That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%

:06:44.:06:49.

in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he

:06:50.:06:52.

knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that

:06:53.:06:56.

have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they

:06:57.:07:02.

do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it

:07:03.:07:07.

support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their

:07:08.:07:11.

MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out

:07:12.:07:18.

for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of

:07:19.:07:20.

the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence

:07:21.:07:25.

of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:26.:07:28.

of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because

:07:29.:07:32.

Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable

:07:33.:07:36.

is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate

:07:37.:07:41.

at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny

:07:42.:07:44.

Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate

:07:45.:07:47.

either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If

:07:48.:07:52.

they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits

:07:53.:07:59.

score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or

:08:00.:08:03.

another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader

:08:04.:08:09.

of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in

:08:10.:08:13.

the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to

:08:14.:08:17.

me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership

:08:18.:08:23.

talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you

:08:24.:08:27.

have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The

:08:28.:08:34.

grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they

:08:35.:08:37.

lose their network of activists, who they need to fight the next

:08:38.:08:41.

election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it

:08:42.:08:44.

would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.

:08:45.:08:52.

Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be

:08:53.:08:56.

different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto

:08:57.:09:01.

the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where

:09:02.:09:05.

does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this

:09:06.:09:10.

time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not

:09:11.:09:13.

win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit

:09:14.:09:20.

of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases

:09:21.:09:23.

is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually

:09:24.:09:29.

winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when

:09:30.:09:33.

they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an

:09:34.:09:35.

interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a

:09:36.:09:40.

number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put

:09:41.:09:46.

them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a

:09:47.:09:51.

legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just

:09:52.:09:55.

because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet

:09:56.:10:03.

the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that

:10:04.:10:08.

many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You

:10:09.:10:11.

wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he

:10:12.:10:14.

was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and

:10:15.:10:18.

dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation

:10:19.:10:21.

they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let

:10:22.:10:25.

somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they

:10:26.:10:29.

are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange

:10:30.:10:34.

story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.

:10:35.:10:38.

If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let

:10:39.:10:44.

the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases

:10:45.:10:48.

because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is

:10:49.:10:56.

so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing

:10:57.:10:58.

him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are

:10:59.:11:03.

falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their

:11:04.:11:06.

abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the

:11:07.:11:11.

kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem

:11:12.:11:15.

a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed

:11:16.:11:19.

to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific

:11:20.:11:23.

crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has

:11:24.:11:27.

no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that

:11:28.:11:30.

has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had

:11:31.:11:33.

Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as

:11:34.:11:37.

bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people

:11:38.:11:40.

suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in

:11:41.:11:43.

Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,

:11:44.:11:48.

Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this

:11:49.:11:55.

true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you

:11:56.:11:59.

were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it

:12:00.:12:04.

right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his

:12:05.:12:09.

opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of

:12:10.:12:16.

this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain

:12:17.:12:20.

about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it

:12:21.:12:24.

is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is

:12:25.:12:29.

it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.

:12:30.:12:33.

Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.

:12:34.:12:37.

But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly

:12:38.:12:43.

changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation

:12:44.:12:49.

and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot

:12:50.:12:53.

going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the

:12:54.:12:57.

BBC In 2013, the public voted for

:12:58.:14:00.

a portrait of At times he's interesting,

:14:01.:14:03.

at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life

:14:04.:14:11.

and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous

:14:12.:14:19.

when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre

:14:20.:14:21.

of attention but for ever.

:14:22.:14:25.

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