Browse content similar to 13/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks' | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever | :00:48. | :00:57. | |
we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
In the South: councils were tweeting commentators. | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
In the South: councils were tweeting their wellies off during the recent | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
floods with information about where was underwater. But are the people | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
they needed to reach actually on social media? | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
impartial about informing people of local services. | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections. | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all. | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first. | :01:54. | :02:02. | |
And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
reminder of what all the fuss is about. | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73 | :02:21. | :02:20. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food | :02:52. | :03:00. | |
regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot. | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For, | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe, | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe, | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders. | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements. | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed. | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again. | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut, | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market. | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying. | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford, | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that | :10:29. | :10:36. | |
is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats, | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
immigration. We have been open to people across the world for | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers, | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits, | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
only this week the office for National said that they did not | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here | :13:26. | :13:39. | |
today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are | :13:43. | :13:52. | |
wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
countries with similar living standards to us. France, the | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of | :14:03. | :14:16. | |
which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street. | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on, | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2 | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits. | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool | :17:08. | :17:15. | |
place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might | :17:31. | :17:38. | |
not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits. | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs. | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU. | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral. | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria, | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European | :22:40. | :22:41. | |
Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense. | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth, | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all. | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ? | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries. | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back. | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP, | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
were the first British political party to have independent audits of | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up. | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully. | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5 | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe. | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between... | :31:07. | :31:15. | |
Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He | :31:16. | :31:23. | |
is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future, | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that? | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not | :33:29. | :33:36. | |
sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle, | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not | :35:46. | :35:53. | |
looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your | :35:57. | :36:06. | |
irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage. | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, | :37:36. | :37:45. | |
Scotland. Coming up here in twenty Welcome to Sunday Politics South ` | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
my name's Peter Henley. On today's show, social media is all the rage | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
amongst councils. It's free, and in the recent floods they were | :37:53. | :37:54. | |
enthusiastically sending out updates on where was flooded. But are there | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
enough people at the receiving end to make it worthwhile? | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
More on that shortly. First, let's meet the two politicians who'll be | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
with me for the next 20 minutes. Layla Moran is the Liberal Democrat | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
prospective parliamentary candidate for Oxford West and Abingdon, and | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
Caroline Nokes is the Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North. | :38:12. | :38:21. | |
Welcome both. Hello, Peter. And as with last week, the big drama this | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
week featured the Culture Secretary Maria Miller, her expenses conundrum | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
and then her sudden resignation from the cabinet. | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
The saga began 16 months ago, with a complaint from Labour MP John Mann | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards that she had used | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
taxpayers' money to subsidise her parents living in a second home in | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
London. Just over a week ago, the standards committee's report cleared | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
her of that, but did insist she repay ?5,800 in overclaimed expenses | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
and make an apology to the house for her attitude during the committee's | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
enquiry. The committee has recommended that I apologise to the | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
house for my attitude to the commissioners' enquiries, and I, of | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
course, unreservedly apologise. But at just 32 seconds long, the apology | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
was soon seen is not sufficiently contrite. The calls for her | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
resignation began, although the Prime Minister insisted on several | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
occasions that she still had his full confidence. | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
Maria Miller's doing an excellent job as Culture Secretary, and will | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
continue to do that. If we look at this report, yes, of course these | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
issues do matter, but she was cleared of the original allegation | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
made against her. But the press had now scented blood, | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
and Conservative backbenchers and even anonymous ministers were | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
starting to get nervous about how all this was impacting on the | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
party's electoral helps. Then, early on Wednesday, hours before PMQs, | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
came the sudden announcement that Maria Miller had resigned as culture | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
secretary. I hoped that I could stay, but it's | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
become clear to me over the last few days that this has become an | :39:53. | :39:54. | |
enormous distraction, and it's not right that I am distracting from the | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
incredible achievements of this government. I've been a member of | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
the Conservative Party for 30 years, and I want to make sure that my | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
position is not in any way detracting from the achievements of | :40:05. | :40:05. | |
the government. So, Caroline Nokes, why did she go? | :40:06. | :40:21. | |
I think she went because she realised that there wasn't | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
sufficient support for her to carry on, and people are understandably, | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
even all these years on, still very angry about the expenses scandals | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
and things that happened pre`2010. Justifiably angry? Absolutely | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
justifiably angry, and I wasn't there before 2010, and I saw how | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
angry people were in my own constituency about it, and I think | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
it is absolutely imperative that we get over this, that people make | :40:45. | :40:46. | |
heartfelt, sincere apologies, and do their best to try and restore | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
confidence in their politicians. She should have made a heartfelt, | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
sincere apology earlier, then? Yes, I think she should have done. | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
Layla Moran, has this left David Cameron stronger or weaker, would | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
you say? I think obviously weaker. It hasn't been a good week for him. | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
Clearly he doesn't understand the public mood. If he had, he would | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
have got rid of her earlier, actually. The whole thing is just so | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
emotive for everyone. I've been out on doorsteps, and it is the number | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
one thing that's brought up. And it is a plague on all of our houses, | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
and it's up to all of us who are in or want to be in Parliament to make | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
the case for integrity in this profession. It is partly why I want | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
to stand as an MP. When I first joined the Liberal Democrats, that | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
was one of the reasons why I stood, because I saw what was happening and | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
I wanted to stand up for integrity. And people from 2010, your intake, | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
were even more annoyed in some ways, weren't they, at Parliament, about | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
this? I think the 2010 intake were particularly annoyed. We came in | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
hoping there was going to be a clean sheet, and actually, there is still | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
a very unfortunate hangover from what went on before. Paul Harvey, | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
leader of the Labour group on Basingstoke Council is with us. She | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
has resigned as a Cabinet Minister. Do you think she should continue as | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
an MP? She has done the right thing this week by resigning as a Cabinet | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
minister. It took her long enough, and it took David Cameron long | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
enough to deal with the issue. I think that created a significant | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
amount of anger locally, because it was a sense of saying, you don't get | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
this. You're not listening and you don't understand. And that did | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
tremendous damage, and I think if she listens to local people, local | :42:19. | :42:20. | |
people have genuinely lost confidence in her, and she needs to | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
reflect on that. In terms of going forward here, we have got to put | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
this system right. There has got to be independent regulation and | :42:31. | :42:32. | |
independent assessment of members of Parliament. It cannot be | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
self`regulation any more. We just cannot have that. People have got to | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
have trust and confidence. And in this case, this might be an example | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
of where the Recall of Parliamentarians Bill would have | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
come into force. For something like this, which is not just about what | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
she ended up spending, but also about her attitude towards the whole | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
thing. She has been pulled up for being out of order. You're in favour | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
of recall. I've long supported my colleagues at Goldsmith on the issue | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
of recall, but I think what we have to have is proper recall, where the | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
power is in the hands of the local electors. I think it would be | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
absolutely wrong to have a recall bill that put the power in the hands | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
of fellow MPs. Constituency members should be judged by their own | :43:15. | :43:16. | |
constituents, and I firmly believe should have the power within a | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
parliamentary period to recall their MP if sufficient are concerned | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
enough to do so. This has done damage to the | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
Conservatives, and the other two here have talked about David Cameron | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
suffering. Would you agree with that? Well, I think that Maria | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
should have apologised and resigned last Thursday, and I think it is a | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
very great shame that she didn't do so. However, I don't think we can | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
allow this to undermine the very good work that David Cameron has | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
been doing as Prime Minister. He hasn't handled this as well as he | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
could have done. I think the Prime Minister showed commendable loyalty | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
to a Cabinet minister. You have to remember that the report cleared her | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
of the charges that a Labour MP had made against her, so I think it was | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
a very difficult situation, and it's just a shame that Maria didn't | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
resign earlier herself. Paul Harvey, partly she was caught in the | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
crossfire from Leveson. Any Cabinet minister would have been turned over | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
by the papers, wouldn't they, whoever the individual was? | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
This is nobody else's fault but Maria's. She made those choices to | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
obstruct the enquiry in the way that she did, that led to her 32`second | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
apology that caused so much anger. The idea that you can just stand up | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
and give 32 seconds of an apology came across as being contemptuous | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
and arrogant, and that did not do her any favours. And then you look | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
at the issues in the constituency. This has been an issue in | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
Basingstoke since 2009, when she flipped her home. It isn't as if | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
this is something new. This has been bubbling away, growing and growing | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
and growing, and came to boiling point this week. And we have all | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
been in the spotlight this week, as politicians, and what we have got to | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
do is give people trust in what we do. They don't trust local | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
councillors either? Well, it's what we do that matters. It really is. | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
Our actions have got to be clear and open and upfront now in how we do | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
our job. We look after what the constituents care about, housing, | :45:03. | :45:04. | |
buses, all those issues that people care about in their daily lives. | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
That's what we've got to be about, and the system at Westminster has | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
got to be absolutely independent. MPs can no longer regulate | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
themselves. I couldn't agree more, and David Cameron has really shot | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
himself in the foot this week, because what Nigel Farage, in my | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
opinion, is playing to is this distrust of politicians in general. | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
As we know, the Conservatives are most likely to be defecting to UKIP. | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
The fact that he couldn't read... They say they draw from all parties. | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
They do, but as a proportion, it's more likely to be Tory. And this is | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
another example of why people should be voting for UKIP, in the eyes of | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
Farage, which of course, is rubbish, but there you are. UKIP are here as | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
the people who are untainted by expenses. | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
I mean, you can set aside some of what has happened in the European | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
Parliament. As councillors in Hampshire, they are not claiming any | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
expenses. Maybe as councillors in Hampshire, | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
they're not claiming any expenses, but I think Mr Farage himself has | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
admitted that he's claimed more than ?2 million in expenses, and has his | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
wife on the payroll, despite pledging not to. | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
And so, I do not think that UKIP's hands are clean when it comes to | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
expenses, and I think that it's entirely opportunistic of UKIP to | :46:17. | :46:29. | |
try to use this as Strange we ended up talking about | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
them, though, isn't it? Paul, thanks for coming in. | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
Social media ` everyone's doing it these days, aren't they? Or are | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
they? Local councils have gone a bit wild in a frenzy of keeping | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
residents informed via various online services. But just how many | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
residents did they actually end up informing? Just how many are even | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
online regularly, never mind using social media regularly? As our | :46:48. | :46:49. | |
Berkshire political reporter Patrick O'Hagan reports, councils' | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
enthusiasm could be a touch misplaced. | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
Ah, the good old days. Bashing away at the keyboard, aching fingers, | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
typos galore. Then you had to spend all your money on envelopes and | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
stamps before heading out your nearest postbox. It all took so | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
long. Thankfully, these days, we have the | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
computer, the laptop, the smartphone, all of which allow us to | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
send those all important e`mails. There it is. It's gone. Of course, | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
millions of e`mails are sent out by people every day, but some would | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
argue that e`mail is becoming old hat already. When the floods hit | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
West Berkshire back in February, the council were swamped with calls. | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
It used Twitter to tell people where they could get hold of sandbags, | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
spreading the word on which roads were closed, and letting people know | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
when the council's workers and other emergency staff would come round to | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
help them. People were learning things from Twitter and then telling | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
neighbours and friends what they had read on Twitter. In the absence of | :47:51. | :48:02. | |
information, you get rumours. Often, those rumours are wrong, and Twitter | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
has allowed us to say, no, we are definitely coming, or, we're going | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
to do it this way, just to counteract false rumours. Media | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
experts say that for public bodies like local authorities, social media | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
is becoming increasingly useful in dealing with fast`moving crises like | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
the recent flooding. When you think about why councils might want to use | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
Twitter, they have a mechanism through which they can broadcast to | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
a large number of people very quickly. When you think of a public | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
sector organisation trying to e`mail everyone, the practicalities of that | :48:29. | :48:36. | |
are very difficult. So what do people here make of the | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
idea of their local council using social media? The majority of people | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
do have Facebook and Twitter, and do follow people, so it's a cheap way | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
of getting the message out. I think it's quite scary that sometimes | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
people know things quicker by Facebook and that than by other | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
ways. I mean, it's very fast. It's a grapevine. How many people use it my | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
age, I don't know. You'll be getting the messages out to the youngsters, | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
but not really to older people, I don't think. | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
And that's something experts say local authorities need to keep front | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
of mind when they are using social media. When you think about public | :49:11. | :49:17. | |
emergencies, disasters, flooding, often people who need help from the | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
authorities the most are not using the internet and not using social | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
media. Twitter's very much a two`way street. Listening what where | :49:26. | :49:34. | |
listening to what people are telling you can be just as important as what | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
you're telling them. One good example was in Aldermaston, where a | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
tree fell down and blocked the main road. A resident tweeted | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
photographs. We were able to send out a contractor, and then that same | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
resident took photographs which we were able to retweet to everybody, | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
telling them what was going on with the clearing of the road will stop | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
social media is free, and with council budgets feeling the squeeze, | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
it's no wonder they are keen to use it. | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
It's very, very tempting in a time when budgets are being tempted, to | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
say, well, it doesn't cost is nothing, lots of people are using | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
it. But there's always that risk that when you really, really need | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
it, it doesn't work. Because you don't control it. And what's lost in | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
some of the excitement is that, as the saying goes, the future is | :50:12. | :50:13. | |
here, it's just not evenly distributed. | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
Keen to exploit its possibilities, councils are increasing their social | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
media presence. The next step is to find a way to target the people | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
least likely to use it. Sad to see a moment pushing a body | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
using a smartphone. Poor little child is being ignored! Isn't it | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
easy to spend too much time on social media? Far too easy, and | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
something that my daughter will always pick me up on, and say, could | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
you not pay me more attention? But it plays a really important role, as | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
the film shows. When we had floods in Oxford, it was vital we knew what | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
was going on. You were looking on the websites, listening to the | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
radio, but at the same time, the human connection of, I have been | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
down this road and taken a picture, and now everyone knows before the | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
news. That is crucial. Do you think some people are left out, though? | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
Absolutely, and I am very conscious in my community that coverage of | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
fast broadband is very poor and mobile coverage in some villages is | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
exceptionally bad. So if you are reliant on the internet and social | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
media for information, it will be a struggle. But most councils take a | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
very pragmatic approach to trying to get information out by as many forms | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
of media as possible. In some ways, it is a question of speeding up, | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
maybe making them more efficient? I think you must access all forms of | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
information. This question of the digital divide is a real one in this | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
country, and I have the same problem, that in the villages, there | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
are people without that access to information. You could argue that to | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
access information, whether for jobs or welfare or whatever else, it is | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
necessary in this modern world. It is a real issue. Thank you. | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
If all that's got your social media juices going, don't forget to take | :52:11. | :52:12. | |
part in our snapapolitician extravaganza. The idea is you take a | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
selfie with a politician who's come round to canvass and then either | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
tweet it to us at #snapapolitician, or email it to us at | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
[email protected]. Here's one I prepared earlier with | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
our guests to give you an idea of what we're on about. They are even | :52:31. | :52:44. | |
being so relaxed about it! We'll even accept selfies from the | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
politicians, but they have to include real voters and not just | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
staff members. We've had a few already. John Moore seems to have | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
met a slightly self`conscious Iain Duncan Smith down the shops, and | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
managed to sell Commons Speaker and Buckingham MP John Bercow a cake. | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
Hello, Mr Speaker, if you are watching. But the prize for most | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
prolific snapper so far goes to Bob Smytherman, the Mayor of Worthing, | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
who's sent us five so far, including one in a bath which we'll leave you | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
to find online for yourselves! Just under six weeks till the | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
European elections, and over the past few programmes we've been | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
hearing from the parties who currently send MEPs to Brussels from | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
the South. We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats, | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
Conservatives, UKIP and Labour. Today's the final one, and it's the | :53:20. | :53:20. | |
Green Party. This place matters, because we can | :53:21. | :53:33. | |
use it for the common good. We need to change the way it works. But | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
actually, we are better off in than we are out. | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
Keith Taylor is one of only two British MEPs from the Green party. | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
Until 2010, he was a councillor in Brighton, who took over from | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
Caroline Lucas when she got her Westminster seat. I've never worked | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
as hard in my life, actually, but it has been a fantastic opportunity to | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
make a real difference, not only to the people of the region, but also | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
as part of the European movement. How does it compare to Brighton and | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
Hove Council? Is it easier or more difficult to get things done? The | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
differences are obvious, but with Brighton and Hove Council, with | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
local UK politics, it is very adversarial. People disagree with | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
you because you are the wrong tribe, whereas here, in the European | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
Parliament, the assumption is that your work is not done until you have | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
got something resolved. One thing you have campaigned on its air | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
quality, something which clearly needs concerted action, not just in | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
one country. Have you managed to get things done there? Yes, absolutely. | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
We have the year of hair in 2013, and as a result, I have been working | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
alongside non`governmental organisation than lawyers in support | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
of their action against the British government for the government's in | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
action on air pollution. We actually need to tighten up the standards. We | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
need to make them more global to follow the World Health Organisation | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
recommendations about air pollution, and that needs to be for | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
the benefit of everybody living in Europe. About fracking, as a lot of | :55:19. | :55:26. | |
possibly Conservative supporters that have been against the European | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
Union, who might support things. At that change things? Both Britain and | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
Poland really want to see fracking proceed, irrespective of the fact | :55:36. | :55:37. | |
that we aren't going to get any cheaper gas prices, the fact that it | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
is going to run the risk of air pollution, water pollution, and huge | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
disruption in the region of the south`east. The simple fact is, you | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
can't regulate fracking safely. You are killing a very deep hole, | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
cutting millions of gallons of water down its with toxic chemicals. How | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
can you regulate against that? Will it be an election this year? Dead | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
right it will, absolutely. As I say, do not vote for someone who supports | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
fracking. On things like immigration, surely the way the vote | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
has gone is about things like taking control of our own borders? There | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
are many problems in the UK, but actually, immigration is not one of | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
them. Migrants get blamed for the lack of affordable housing, for | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
instance. Reason is not that we have got too many migrants. The reason is | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
the governments, both Labour and coalition, have failed to put money | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
into housing. We have a depressed construction industry, a depressed | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
budget, so I think the public can actually make a decision based on | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
the facts rather than what they read in populist scapegoating newspapers | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
and political tracts. Peter Taylor from the Green Party. | :56:53. | :57:02. | |
And why not see if you can spot a wannabe MEP out campaigning and send | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
us a selfie with them to #snapapolitician? | :57:06. | :57:07. | |
Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60 | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
seconds, this week a feast for fans of new technology, and old. | :57:11. | :57:23. | |
Police use of Taser 's has more than doubled in parts of the cell. They | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
are increasingly used to control Dangerous Dogs Act, and records | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
reveal many more officers regularly carry them. | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
Have you noticed those blue telephone boxes? It is back to the | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
future for Dorset Police, with this Doctor Who style police box in | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
Boston. Both a tourist attraction, Andy Grace the local bobbies. | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
Meanwhile, down the coast, people in Purbeck have been getting huge bills | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
when their mobile phones switched to French networks. Your phone will | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
just grab the strongest signal. This more simple technology could save | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
the lives of cyclists. Oxford University research shows | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
that drivers identify the symbol faster. In that millisecond, this | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
gives you time subconsciously and consciously to adjust. | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
Unwell acres of this power station has been sold off for housing, they | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
have started installing solar panels on Oxford council homes, giving | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
tenants free electricity. Those are clever, they? And the | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
solar panels are working well and not with? I am a big fan of that | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
initiative. Anything that enables us to increase our renewable energy | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
input, that is great. And 70% of Oxford cycles to work. Anything we | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
can do to decrease the number of cycling deaths is a good thing. | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
Those Tasers are nasty things. But defibrillators in schools is a | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
campaign you have taken up? Absolutely. We had a nasty incident | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
in a school in my constituency, but fortunately, the young man survived | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
because the school already had a defibrillator. I am joining with a | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
number of campaign groups up and down the country and in this region | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
to encourage not just schools but all public buildings install public | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
access defibrillators. You must use them quickly, that is the point of | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
having them in the buildings? The first four minutes at crucial, and | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
the survival rates plummet if you don't get to them with a | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
defibrillator within four minutes. The new machines are fabulous, | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
instructions as you go along, so a really important asset for our | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
schools. URA teacher. Would people use that? I think they were, with | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
the right training. We have a culture where teachers are told not | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
to touch and all that, but we must be careful and make sure there are | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
procedures in place. But I agree. I think it is a good thing. These are | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
special ones, they took you through how to do it? Absolutely. In South | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
Central Ambulance Service has a great scheme where they can be | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
insecure boxes, they will give you the code when you dial 999 to get | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
the box up the wall of the building, and they will talk you | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
through every step of the process. Let's hope you spread the word about | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
that a bit more. Thank you both for coming on this week. | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests Layla | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
Moran and Caroline Nokes. Don't forget to keep snapping those | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
politicians ` hashtag snapapolitician or there's the email | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
address at the bottom of the screen. For now though it's back to Andrew. | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
risk. We have run out of time. -- particular candidates. Back to you, | :00:38. | :00:47. | |
Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead. | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of | :01:26. | :01:34. | |
light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
away, what are the consequences? I think there is a widespread | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes, | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June, | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron's | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in. | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7% | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
lose their network of activists, who they need to fight the next | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency. | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation. | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically, | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has. | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals. | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
BBC In 2013, the public voted for | :12:58. | :14:00. | |
a portrait of At times he's interesting, | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre | :14:20. | :14:21. | |
of attention but for ever. | :14:22. | :14:25. |