30/10/2016 Sunday Politics South


30/10/2016

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:37.

Theresa May says she wants to help people who are

:00:38.:00:40.

"just about managing" - so should she reverse

:00:41.:00:43.

George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people

:00:44.:00:45.

Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,

:00:46.:00:52.

says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.

:00:53.:00:55.

So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?

:00:56.:01:00.

Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation

:01:01.:01:05.

into her use of a private email server - is this the boost

:01:06.:01:08.

Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?

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Now it is just a question of building that runway with the

:01:22.:01:23.

political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio

:01:24.:01:30.

on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political

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panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,

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'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two

:01:35.:01:37.

new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant

:01:38.:01:46.

in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday

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was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British

:01:50.:01:56.

economy is in rude health This morning, the Business

:01:57.:01:58.

Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given

:01:59.:02:02.

to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest

:02:03.:02:05.

for there to be tariff barriers to the continent

:02:06.:02:12.

and vice versa. So, what I said is that our

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objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets

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in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without

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bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach

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those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle

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by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has

:02:34.:02:47.

been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by

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making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for

:02:52.:02:56.

the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in

:02:57.:03:01.

the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of

:03:02.:03:06.

incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are

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absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most

:03:13.:03:14.

productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most

:03:15.:03:19.

productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade

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unions and the business organisations, and everybody who

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campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their

:03:29.:03:34.

future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge

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difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make

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things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing

:03:44.:03:48.

sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.

:03:49.:03:53.

I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow

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business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims

:03:59.:04:01.

the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a

:04:02.:04:07.

small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs

:04:08.:04:10.

in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're

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really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,

:04:16.:04:19.

and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t

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ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job

:04:24.:04:27.

security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors

:04:28.:04:32.

as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important

:04:33.:04:37.

they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you

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say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that

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what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole

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industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he

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had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our

:04:59.:05:03.

industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered

:05:04.:05:06.

piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,

:05:07.:05:11.

actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what

:05:12.:05:15.

is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on

:05:16.:05:19.

science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You

:05:20.:05:24.

must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an

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industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say

:05:30.:05:38.

industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you

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disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he

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has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in

:05:48.:05:52.

general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with

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that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let

:05:59.:06:02.

him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we

:06:03.:06:08.

need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and

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joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That

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was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed

:06:23.:06:26.

support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is

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not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there

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was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to

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be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you

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claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to

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be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I

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would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances

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that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of

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what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the

:07:09.:07:11.

single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs

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Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very

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good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant

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investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is

:07:24.:07:29.

some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would

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like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what

:07:35.:07:40.

would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with

:07:41.:07:44.

the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain

:07:45.:07:48.

competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg

:07:49.:07:54.

Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we

:07:55.:07:58.

do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about

:07:59.:08:07.

reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're

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going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only

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those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention

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of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a

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competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave

:08:25.:08:29.

them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest

:08:30.:08:34.

Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made

:08:35.:08:38.

strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise

:08:39.:08:41.

corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could

:08:42.:08:46.

you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our

:08:47.:08:51.

vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong

:08:52.:08:55.

manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at

:08:56.:09:06.

Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,

:09:07.:09:14.

well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't

:09:15.:09:18.

have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union

:09:19.:09:22.

laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing

:09:23.:09:26.

investment. Remember, the last government took away the

:09:27.:09:29.

Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed

:09:30.:09:34.

corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill

:09:35.:09:38.

economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.

:09:39.:09:43.

I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is

:09:44.:09:53.

left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid

:09:54.:09:57.

point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could

:09:58.:10:01.

say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he

:10:02.:10:07.

could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was

:10:08.:10:11.

enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving

:10:12.:10:18.

training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not

:10:19.:10:22.

know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is

:10:23.:10:26.

if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government

:10:27.:10:29.

says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an

:10:30.:10:34.

industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't

:10:35.:10:38.

made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an

:10:39.:10:41.

impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure

:10:42.:10:48.

this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of

:10:49.:10:51.

millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I

:10:52.:10:56.

spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to

:10:57.:11:00.

Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that

:11:01.:11:04.

Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,

:11:05.:11:08.

its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some

:11:09.:11:14.

bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk

:11:15.:11:18.

away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -

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based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position

:11:23.:11:27.

because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want

:11:28.:11:30.

to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a

:11:31.:11:36.

smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to

:11:37.:11:39.

articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think

:11:40.:11:42.

the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were

:11:43.:11:47.

anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an

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objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its

:11:51.:11:54.

right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one

:11:55.:12:01.

thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this

:12:02.:12:04.

morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of

:12:05.:12:07.

financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for

:12:08.:12:12.

skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial

:12:13.:12:17.

investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal

:12:18.:12:19.

under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a

:12:20.:12:25.

financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would

:12:26.:12:29.

be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just

:12:30.:12:32.

released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.

:12:33.:12:36.

The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited

:12:37.:12:42.

about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would

:12:43.:12:45.

be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded

:12:46.:12:49.

as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal

:12:50.:12:52.

about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about

:12:53.:12:58.

what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff

:12:59.:13:02.

free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is

:13:03.:13:09.

where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how

:13:10.:13:13.

the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's

:13:14.:13:19.

negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.

:13:20.:13:24.

It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We

:13:25.:13:29.

are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.

:13:30.:13:31.

Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare

:13:32.:13:33.

claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst

:13:34.:13:36.

encouraging people into work by making work pay.

:13:37.:13:38.

But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work

:13:39.:13:40.

incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?

:13:41.:13:46.

Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,

:13:47.:13:48.

as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.

:13:49.:13:55.

Theresa May says she wants a country that works

:13:56.:13:58.

for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.

:13:59.:14:02.

It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them

:14:03.:14:05.

to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out

:14:06.:14:08.

and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes

:14:09.:14:11.

But now some in her party are worried that the low earners

:14:12.:14:17.

will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system

:14:18.:14:22.

originally set up to encourage more people into work.

:14:23.:14:24.

We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit

:14:25.:14:27.

Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget

:14:28.:14:34.

to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.

:14:35.:14:43.

Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs

:14:44.:14:45.

in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.

:14:46.:14:53.

I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might

:14:54.:14:56.

be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,

:14:57.:14:58.

Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand

:14:59.:15:02.

To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,

:15:03.:15:05.

and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions

:15:06.:15:08.

Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.

:15:09.:15:09.

Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan

:15:10.:15:15.

that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.

:15:16.:15:20.

One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system

:15:21.:15:22.

That is how much you can earn before your credit

:15:23.:15:26.

As the Government has sought to save money,

:15:27.:15:29.

both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,

:15:30.:15:31.

both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,

:15:32.:15:33.

that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.

:15:34.:15:35.

The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.

:15:36.:15:38.

That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep

:15:39.:15:40.

It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.

:15:41.:15:44.

What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?

:15:45.:15:46.

The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.

:15:47.:15:49.

If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer

:15:50.:15:53.

budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains

:15:54.:15:56.

in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,

:15:57.:15:58.

recipients will be hit by annual deductions.

:15:59.:16:03.

Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.

:16:04.:16:07.

A dual-earning couple with two children under four,

:16:08.:16:09.

with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other

:16:10.:16:12.

working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20

:16:13.:16:15.

hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.

:16:16.:16:22.

Hit most by the changes would be a single parent

:16:23.:16:25.

with a child under four, working full-time

:16:26.:16:26.

I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given

:16:27.:16:40.

the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.

:16:41.:16:43.

What I would like to see is an increase in the work

:16:44.:16:49.

allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.

:16:50.:16:52.

That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,

:16:53.:16:55.

because they are the people we need to absolutely make

:16:56.:16:57.

The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs

:16:58.:17:02.

are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.

:17:03.:17:05.

A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact

:17:06.:17:09.

analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures

:17:10.:17:11.

Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect

:17:12.:17:18.

of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.

:17:19.:17:22.

But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit

:17:23.:17:27.

the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.

:17:28.:17:32.

What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first

:17:33.:17:36.

time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year

:17:37.:17:38.

because these reforms actually do make sense.

:17:39.:17:40.

What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people

:17:41.:17:43.

off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people

:17:44.:17:45.

earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this

:17:46.:17:48.

People are coming off welfare and into work.

:17:49.:17:51.

Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve

:17:52.:17:54.

The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple

:17:55.:18:00.

Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right

:18:01.:18:04.

that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,

:18:05.:18:06.

for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have

:18:07.:18:09.

I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,

:18:10.:18:14.

because is costing us an awful lot of money.

:18:15.:18:16.

With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's

:18:17.:18:19.

new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,

:18:20.:18:22.

its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it

:18:23.:18:26.

And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,

:18:27.:18:35.

Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side

:18:36.:18:43.

of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit

:18:44.:18:48.

from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed

:18:49.:18:52.

as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed

:18:53.:18:56.

because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going

:18:57.:18:59.

to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for

:19:00.:19:04.

being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus

:19:05.:19:09.

on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic

:19:10.:19:16.

terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is

:19:17.:19:20.

the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this

:19:21.:19:24.

right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the

:19:25.:19:26.

direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too

:19:27.:19:30.

much money out of that group of people when there are other areas

:19:31.:19:34.

which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit

:19:35.:19:38.

is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to

:19:39.:19:41.

stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were

:19:42.:19:45.

there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it

:19:46.:19:51.

should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to

:19:52.:19:55.

stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but

:19:56.:19:59.

that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but

:20:00.:20:04.

first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis

:20:05.:20:07.

of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant

:20:08.:20:14.

and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I

:20:15.:20:19.

do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised

:20:20.:20:27.

that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that

:20:28.:20:31.

pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing

:20:32.:20:35.

the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost

:20:36.:20:40.

us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another

:20:41.:20:49.

5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind

:20:50.:20:53.

you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in

:20:54.:21:00.

2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a

:21:01.:21:05.

week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes

:21:06.:21:09.

that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.

:21:10.:21:17.

What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and

:21:18.:21:22.

election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us

:21:23.:21:32.

today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest

:21:33.:21:37.

in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.

:21:38.:21:43.

Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose

:21:44.:21:47.

benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too

:21:48.:21:52.

high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the

:21:53.:21:56.

moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at

:21:57.:22:01.

65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will

:22:02.:22:07.

face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.

:22:08.:22:11.

The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand

:22:12.:22:14.

is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to

:22:15.:22:18.

get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into

:22:19.:22:21.

work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in

:22:22.:22:29.

hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have

:22:30.:22:32.

a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same

:22:33.:22:36.

commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty

:22:37.:22:40.

going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What

:22:41.:22:43.

happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax

:22:44.:22:46.

credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe

:22:47.:22:50.

given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point

:22:51.:22:56.

where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,

:22:57.:22:59.

it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the

:23:00.:23:04.

summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise

:23:05.:23:08.

the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being

:23:09.:23:11.

higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the

:23:12.:23:17.

consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take

:23:18.:23:19.

collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,

:23:20.:23:23.

but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.

:23:24.:23:26.

There was another attempt before the spending review last year to

:23:27.:23:30.

increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed

:23:31.:23:35.

to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last

:23:36.:23:39.

year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of

:23:40.:23:44.

that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if

:23:45.:23:47.

we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is

:23:48.:23:52.

singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the

:23:53.:23:54.

paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of

:23:55.:24:00.

the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a

:24:01.:24:06.

diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate

:24:07.:24:12.

will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I

:24:13.:24:17.

will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you

:24:18.:24:20.

put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed

:24:21.:24:24.

it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed

:24:25.:24:29.

circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne

:24:30.:24:32.

introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe

:24:33.:24:38.

so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I

:24:39.:24:41.

don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax

:24:42.:24:45.

threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is

:24:46.:24:53.

in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,

:24:54.:24:58.

and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to

:24:59.:25:04.

improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green

:25:05.:25:07.

paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes

:25:08.:25:11.

necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be

:25:12.:25:15.

done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work

:25:16.:25:18.

and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort

:25:19.:25:22.

our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make

:25:23.:25:28.

sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what

:25:29.:25:30.

you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would

:25:31.:25:35.

that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on

:25:36.:25:41.

in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would

:25:42.:25:47.

it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is

:25:48.:25:51.

first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where

:25:52.:25:56.

they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the

:25:57.:25:59.

re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the

:26:00.:26:05.

IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,

:26:06.:26:09.

and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,

:26:10.:26:13.

because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less

:26:14.:26:17.

incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We

:26:18.:26:23.

don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I

:26:24.:26:27.

would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.

:26:28.:26:36.

-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would

:26:37.:26:39.

prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold

:26:40.:26:47.

razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,

:26:48.:26:52.

getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal

:26:53.:26:55.

Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written

:26:56.:26:59.

by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic

:27:00.:27:03.

and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that

:27:04.:27:07.

people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take

:27:08.:27:14.

on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?

:27:15.:27:20.

This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that

:27:21.:27:25.

enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five

:27:26.:27:30.

deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to

:27:31.:27:32.

Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,

:27:33.:27:38.

genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to

:27:39.:27:42.

make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think

:27:43.:27:46.

she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have

:27:47.:27:51.

a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto

:27:52.:27:55.

commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the

:27:56.:28:00.

personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to

:28:01.:28:03.

an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock

:28:04.:28:09.

that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?

:28:10.:28:15.

What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now

:28:16.:28:19.

the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations

:28:20.:28:22.

Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as

:28:23.:28:26.

a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.

:28:27.:28:32.

It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about

:28:33.:28:37.

ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but

:28:38.:28:41.

after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and

:28:42.:28:45.

allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the

:28:46.:28:50.

triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under

:28:51.:28:54.

pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money

:28:55.:28:58.

out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on

:28:59.:29:02.

the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are

:29:03.:29:05.

up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by

:29:06.:29:09.

Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay

:29:10.:29:14.

for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock

:29:15.:29:25.

and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?

:29:26.:29:29.

As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the

:29:30.:29:31.

intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.

:29:32.:29:34.

Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -

:29:35.:29:37.

who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.

:29:38.:29:40.

That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took

:29:41.:29:43.

against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist

:29:44.:29:46.

Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November

:29:47.:29:50.

2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council

:29:51.:29:53.

of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British

:29:54.:29:55.

In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker

:29:56.:30:01.

who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.

:30:02.:30:04.

From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been

:30:05.:30:07.

involved in a number of community organisations, including

:30:08.:30:11.

the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,

:30:12.:30:13.

Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education

:30:14.:30:18.

and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.

:30:19.:30:21.

But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called

:30:22.:30:26.

Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local

:30:27.:30:30.

community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences

:30:31.:30:33.

he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.

:30:34.:30:38.

The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally

:30:39.:30:41.

outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses

:30:42.:30:44.

terrorists - as particularly sinister.

:30:45.:30:47.

The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise

:30:48.:30:49.

Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that

:30:50.:30:55.

Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.

:30:56.:31:00.

We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer

:31:01.:31:03.

on their Religious Education Committee.

:31:04.:31:05.

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that

:31:06.:31:07.

Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group

:31:08.:31:12.

in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.

:31:13.:31:21.

I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam

:31:22.:31:26.

Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a

:31:27.:31:33.

statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject

:31:34.:31:39.

the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and

:31:40.:31:41.

unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam

:31:42.:31:48.

What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At

:31:49.:31:52.

the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he

:31:53.:31:56.

belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque

:31:57.:32:01.

would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be

:32:02.:32:06.

saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and

:32:07.:32:10.

extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very

:32:11.:32:15.

important decision and a very important judgment by the judge

:32:16.:32:22.

First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer

:32:23.:32:26.

of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of

:32:27.:32:31.

things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand

:32:32.:32:35.

by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody

:32:36.:32:42.

who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential

:32:43.:32:46.

libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and

:32:47.:32:51.

people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's

:32:52.:32:56.

some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who

:32:57.:33:00.

promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a

:33:01.:33:04.

step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing

:33:05.:33:08.

within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really

:33:09.:33:17.

concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were

:33:18.:33:22.

consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What

:33:23.:33:29.

is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It

:33:30.:33:39.

comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for

:33:40.:33:42.

them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist

:33:43.:33:51.

to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a

:33:52.:33:53.

revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And

:33:54.:33:57.

then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.

:33:58.:34:04.

We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,

:34:05.:34:07.

growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political

:34:08.:34:13.

ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular

:34:14.:34:17.

problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the

:34:18.:34:23.

theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that

:34:24.:34:26.

excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good

:34:27.:34:31.

to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi

:34:32.:34:35.

problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of

:34:36.:34:43.

mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on

:34:44.:34:47.

the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll

:34:48.:34:52.

and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are

:34:53.:34:58.

speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we

:34:59.:35:03.

have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in

:35:04.:35:07.

prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But

:35:08.:35:11.

there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will

:35:12.:35:15.

show one face to the community because they actually need that for

:35:16.:35:20.

a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to

:35:21.:35:24.

operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their

:35:25.:35:28.

constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these

:35:29.:35:33.

people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.

:35:34.:35:37.

And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque

:35:38.:35:44.

stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you

:35:45.:35:48.

surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with

:35:49.:35:53.

Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that

:35:54.:35:56.

decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with

:35:57.:36:02.

extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I

:36:03.:36:04.

don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge

:36:05.:36:10.

that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an

:36:11.:36:13.

extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have

:36:14.:36:18.

a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a

:36:19.:36:23.

law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated

:36:24.:36:26.

violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there

:36:27.:36:32.

is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into

:36:33.:36:36.

question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other

:36:37.:36:39.

Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to

:36:40.:36:46.

say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties

:36:47.:36:55.

from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure

:36:56.:36:59.

could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make

:37:00.:37:05.

it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg

:37:06.:37:11.

has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have

:37:12.:37:15.

to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they

:37:16.:37:22.

say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.

:37:23.:37:26.

But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner

:37:27.:37:30.

and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose

:37:31.:37:34.

them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.

:37:35.:37:37.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:38.:37:39.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:40.:37:42.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:37:43.:37:50.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley.

:37:51.:37:56.

On today's show: Taking domdstic DIY waste to the tip used to be free -

:37:57.:38:01.

until councils across the rdgion started charging for the prhvilege.

:38:02.:38:05.

But just this week one council says it may rethink the plan

:38:06.:38:08.

because of confusing signals from the government.

:38:09.:38:16.

Let's meet the two politici`ns who are going to be here. Mirial Kennet

:38:17.:38:25.

was the Green Party candidate in Reading of the last election. Conor

:38:26.:38:27.

Burns is the Conservative MP for Bournemouth West. You've bedn

:38:28.:38:36.

involved in this Nissan dechsion. There were written guaranteds given

:38:37.:38:39.

to this company, which everxbody else is going to be king for, aren't

:38:40.:38:47.

they? Well, I saw quite a lot of the conversations that were had with

:38:48.:38:51.

Nissan. They are a long-terl investor in the United Kingdom.

:38:52.:38:54.

Their core reason for investment is the scale of their workforcd in

:38:55.:38:59.

Sunderland. They obviously `re concerned as to what a potential

:39:00.:39:03.

European trade arrangement looks like. Of course the Governmdnt

:39:04.:39:08.

reassured them and the motor Manufacturers that motor manufacture

:39:09.:39:11.

and free trade in that is a very important thing for us. So BMW would

:39:12.:39:17.

want a slightly different reassurance in Oxford? They will be

:39:18.:39:20.

lobbying Angela Merkel, as well folks like. Because they ard very

:39:21.:39:27.

important export markets on the continent. -- Foxfire gun.

:39:28.:39:42.

wanted in the service area. Let us wanted in the service area. Let us

:39:43.:39:47.

go back to Nissan. This is ` huge vote of confidence in Britahn. Lots

:39:48.:39:52.

of people said things during the referendum, but have turned out not

:39:53.:39:57.

to be true. We have the Chancellor of the Exchequer extolling the fact

:39:58.:40:01.

this week that in the third quarter we are growing at more than 5%. --

:40:02.:40:13.

03 point -- three -- 0.3%. I understand there has been a growth

:40:14.:40:18.

in GDP at the moment, but no growth in manufacturing at all. Evdn the

:40:19.:40:23.

thought of Brexit has ruined sterling.

:40:24.:40:31.

It makes the Valley of the pound in our pockets so much less, it makes

:40:32.:40:37.

UK plc so much less. -- the value of the pound. Nissan feel comfortable

:40:38.:40:46.

enough may be looking a bit ahead, but everybody surely is going to

:40:47.:40:50.

come to Greg Clark and you, saying what can we have? They want to know

:40:51.:40:55.

what can the Government achheve in the negotiation? The Prime Linister

:40:56.:41:01.

says she wants the fullest `ccess for British companies to thd single

:41:02.:41:05.

market, compatible with our ability to control our own borders `nd make

:41:06.:41:11.

the laws that apply in the TK in the -- in the UK. But the trouble is we

:41:12.:41:14.

are going to go straight out of the EU... You don't know that.

:41:15.:41:21.

You argued we would go into a single market probably after the

:41:22.:41:27.

referendum. There is a diffdrence between access to the singld market

:41:28.:41:33.

and ambition of the single larket. But BMW would want freedom of

:41:34.:41:38.

movement for staff? We think freedom of movement is important, it is a

:41:39.:41:46.

cornerstone of a democracy. There is nothing about free movement that is

:41:47.:41:50.

the cornerstone of a democr`cy. The ability to set your own laws in your

:41:51.:41:54.

own country is the cornerstone of democracy. By the way, that does not

:41:55.:42:02.

mean no immigration. Immigr`tion is a very good thing. The right skills,

:42:03.:42:06.

the people coming to our cotntry. But we need to decide in thhs

:42:07.:42:12.

country how many, from word... Skilled workers will be abld to move

:42:13.:42:15.

back and forwards in Oxford. We re not sure. My neighbour wrotd to

:42:16.:42:20.

their MP and ask for a guar`ntee for people from the EU. The spokesman

:42:21.:42:26.

from the Government said thdy can't guarantee it. We are very clear we

:42:27.:42:31.

want to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK. But we

:42:32.:42:35.

also want to do that at the same time as we get the same guarantees

:42:36.:42:38.

for people living in the UK. So, this week we finally got

:42:39.:42:43.

the much-trailed and much-ddlayed announcement of where the government

:42:44.:42:45.

wants to build a new runway And possibly to nobody's grdat

:42:46.:42:48.

surprise it was to stick with the recommendation

:42:49.:43:00.

of the Davies commission and build Locals in the Prime Minister's

:43:01.:43:03.

constituency of Maidenhead , just one of many around London to be

:43:04.:43:06.

affected by the decision - When it comes to the economx, it is

:43:07.:43:16.

a good idea. But it will cole at a cost to the locals. I think it would

:43:17.:43:21.

do Maidenhead good. Something needs to happen here and bring thd place

:43:22.:43:25.

up a little bit. The third runway will bring a lot of business to this

:43:26.:43:29.

area, a lot of new jobs, whhch is important.

:43:30.:43:31.

The other option of course had been Gatwick, where campaigners

:43:32.:43:33.

were understandably breathing a bit of a sigh of relief.

:43:34.:43:39.

We don't wish airport expansion on anybody, but we do not belidve

:43:40.:43:44.

Gatwick will go away. Gatwick residents may not bd

:43:45.:43:47.

entirely in the clear just xet a ban on night flights at Hdathrow,

:43:48.:43:50.

which was one of the condithons for the go-ahead on its exp`nsion

:43:51.:43:53.

plans, could mean more night flights A win for Heathrow was of course

:43:54.:43:55.

a loss for Gatwick - and although local residents

:43:56.:44:00.

in West Sussex may have been pleased at the result, local

:44:01.:44:05.

businesses were less so. Jeff Alexander is Executive Director

:44:06.:44:08.

of the Gatwick Diamond Inithative, bringing together businesses

:44:09.:44:10.

and local authorities in thd area. You're not so happy about G`twick

:44:11.:44:19.

missing out on something? Wd think it's the wrong decision both for the

:44:20.:44:22.

national economy and our local economy. Not just for our

:44:23.:44:27.

businesses, but the people that live here. A lot of our people are

:44:28.:44:30.

dependent on Gatwick Airport in terms of their jobs. You thhnk it

:44:31.:44:35.

might go backwards as a restlt of losing out in this conversation I

:44:36.:44:41.

wouldn't want to say that, because Gatwick is making huge investment.

:44:42.:44:45.

It is in the middle of a ?2.5 billion investment plan that has

:44:46.:44:48.

nothing to do with the second runway. So by 2001 it will have made

:44:49.:44:53.

that investment. That has enabled them to grow to 43 million

:44:54.:44:58.

passengers per year, and 50 long-haul overseas routes. So it is

:44:59.:45:03.

an enormously economic asset for the region, for the country. And it will

:45:04.:45:08.

remain that. But nevertheless it is disappointing

:45:09.:46:02.

eventually by this decision. Do you eventually by this decision. Do you

:46:03.:46:06.

think part of the reason whx Gatwick did not get there was because there

:46:07.:46:09.

way that the maybe I'm not with way that the maybe I'm not with

:46:10.:46:12.

Heathrow, and the infrastructure, problems with rail, it is nothing

:46:13.:46:14.

like the same as Heathrow? We would always argue for more investment in

:46:15.:46:16.

course, but we need to remelber that course, but we need to remelber that

:46:17.:46:18.

Gatwick is extremely well connected by public tra nsport. 43% of

:46:19.:46:21.

passengers get to the airport by public transport, far higher than

:46:22.:46:23.

Heathrow. Within a year or 250 million people will be withhn one

:46:24.:46:25.

know it is difficult to be positive know it is difficult to be positive

:46:26.:46:28.

about it with the current problems with the rail, but there is light at

:46:29.:46:31.

the end of the tunnel if yot look at the investment in London Brhdge the

:46:32.:46:33.

investment in Thameslink. Wd're going to get a brand-new Gatwick

:46:34.:46:36.

station that befits an international so there is a lot we can look

:46:37.:46:38.

forward Gatwick continues to expand, that was something people whll be

:46:39.:46:41.

saying, we don't want that? The starting point has to bd that

:46:42.:46:43.

successive develop -- Government is determined then it up to be airport

:46:44.:46:45.

expansion in the south-east, and then it is a case of but looking

:46:46.:46:48.

forward to more noise and pollution if Gatwick continues to exp`nd, that

:46:49.:46:50.

was something people will bd saying, we don't want that? The starting

:46:51.:46:53.

point has to be that successive develop -- Government is determined

:46:54.:46:55.

then written to be airport dxpansion in the south-east, and then it is a

:46:56.:46:58.

case of looking at the from a noise and environmental impact pohnt of

:46:59.:47:00.

view, Gatwick was way better than Heathrow. If Heathrow gets bogged

:47:01.:47:03.

down with legal challenges `nd the rest of it from a noise and

:47:04.:47:05.

environmental impact point of view, Gatwick was way better than

:47:06.:47:06.

Heathrow. If Heathrow gets bogged down with

:47:07.:47:09.

legal challenges and the rest is Gatwick going to jump into H cannot

:47:10.:47:11.

say it will definitely happdn, but we have seen the sorts of pdople

:47:12.:47:14.

that are going to be involvdd in challenges. But Gatwick is

:47:15.:47:17.

definitely ready to go, and it has said it can deliver a I think it

:47:18.:47:19.

definitely will. I cannot s`y it will definitely happen, but we have

:47:20.:47:22.

seen the sort of people that are going to be involved in challenges.

:47:23.:47:24.

But Gatwick is definitely rdady to go, and it has said it can deliver

:47:25.:47:27.

stands ready to do Miriam, xou are stands ready to do Miriam, xou are

:47:28.:47:30.

not happy about runways the choice is. The Prime Minister is about to

:47:31.:47:32.

or less aviation. The Prime Minister is about a climate to I helped there

:47:33.:47:35.

is Marrakesh coming, and thdre is Marrakesh coming up that colpatible

:47:36.:47:36.

with a BA -- more aviation. How are with a BA -- more aviation. How are

:47:37.:47:39.

we going to make that compatible with AV -- hospital where pdople

:47:40.:47:42.

have lots of lung there are such health issues already. I went to a

:47:43.:47:44.

lung diseases the people who lung diseases the people who

:47:45.:47:46.

obstruction. The people to from it often have is really a big `round

:47:47.:47:49.

with oxygen, it is really a big that we don't have much more of that in

:47:50.:47:59.

that there are good to be. Hf we have electric cars, can't wd find a

:48:00.:48:05.

technological solution? App`rently aviation is already I think it's 9%

:48:06.:48:10.

of green house gases, 50% of CO , and it is predicted by 2050 that it

:48:11.:48:16.

will be a huge amount, I thhnk 5% of all our CO2. So it cannot do that

:48:17.:48:22.

unless the rest of the country cannot have unless there ard

:48:23.:48:24.

cutbacks in other ways. If we have electric cars, can we find

:48:25.:48:26.

technological solution? App`rently technological solution? App`rently

:48:27.:48:28.

aviation is already I think it's 9% of green house gases, 50% of CO ,

:48:29.:48:31.

and it is predicted by 2050 that it will be a huge amount, I thhnk 5%

:48:32.:48:34.

of all our CO2. So we cannot do that unless the rest of the country

:48:35.:48:45.

cannot have made a decision. We need extra airport capacity, but is in

:48:46.:48:50.

that use of CO2. Theresa Max knows that use of CO2. Theresa Max knows

:48:51.:48:53.

that, because in 2009 she s`id it is a devastating decision by the Labour

:48:54.:48:55.

she does not believe it herself she does not believe it herself

:48:56.:48:58.

Have we come a long way frol 20 9? The devastating decision wotld be

:48:59.:49:01.

not to make a decision. I al pleased we have made a decision. We need

:49:02.:49:04.

extra airport capacity, but is in by is agreed by not want to sed the mud

:49:05.:49:06.

of damage to the environment increased as a result but you do not

:49:07.:49:10.

want to see the might of dalage to the environment increased as the

:49:11.:49:12.

environmental impact was looked at and reassurances were constraints.

:49:13.:49:14.

One of the things Nissan were looking at is growing the electrical

:49:15.:49:16.

we are confident we can do this within environmental constr`ints.

:49:17.:49:18.

One of the things Nissan were looking at is growing the m`rket

:49:19.:49:20.

enormously. The Business Secretary has made it clear the Government

:49:21.:49:23.

wants to invest in supporting need to show we are open for bushness,

:49:24.:49:27.

and trade alliances with thd so lots of ways we are looking to rdduce

:49:28.:49:29.

emissions -- emissions in other places. We need to show we `re open

:49:30.:49:35.

for business, and trade allhances with in the prose Brexit world. The

:49:36.:49:38.

disagreement should be open for business? No, but making quhck to be

:49:39.:49:45.

no, we've had it and Hinklex Point, we've had it at Heathrow, on Nissan.

:49:46.:49:50.

There seems to be no you cannot say that Nissan is a well, it is in the

:49:51.:49:59.

sense of think it was a hasty decision?

:50:00.:50:01.

Was a well considered busindss does not like this... Do you think it was

:50:02.:50:06.

a hasty decision? Was well, 80 years, I think. I wouldn't can be

:50:07.:50:11.

accused of like that. I don't think the Government can be accusdd of

:50:12.:50:17.

would not think a hasty one. And there is one more year ahead of us

:50:18.:50:22.

in terms of public consultation An awful lot can and I am sure will

:50:23.:50:26.

happen in that I think they can be accused of the wrong decision, but I

:50:27.:50:29.

would not think a hasty one. And there is one more year ahead of us

:50:30.:50:31.

in terms of public consultation An awful lot can and I am sure will

:50:32.:50:34.

happen in that you will be hnvolved in do you think it could Boris

:50:35.:50:37.

Johnson says? Well, two important issues. Health impact and

:50:38.:50:39.

environmental when the bulldozers arrive as Boris Johnson says? Well,

:50:40.:50:44.

two important issues. Health impact and from the two in terms of

:50:45.:50:49.

emissions. The Davies Commission bid and involve calculation on health

:50:50.:50:56.

costs arising from the two H think the Heathrow option was calculated

:50:57.:50:59.

at costs of ?25 billion compared to ?1.5 billion for see you in court as

:51:00.:51:11.

they say let us see what those calculations -- how those

:51:12.:51:13.

calculation is stacked up in court. See you in court as

:51:14.:51:16.

Not an acronym that trips off the tongue, they're

:51:17.:51:20.

Household Waste Recycling Cdntres, or council tips to you and le.

:51:21.:51:23.

And like every other local `uthority service nowadays they're under

:51:24.:51:25.

pressure to make savings, so many have started charging

:51:26.:51:28.

to take what they call DIY waste off your hands -

:51:29.:51:30.

things like plaster board, rubble, old sinks.

:51:31.:51:32.

We sent our Hampshire and Isle of Wight reporter Jess Parkdr

:51:33.:51:34.

to find out if people think that's a straightforward money-savhng

:51:35.:51:37.

-- see you in court, as thex now, it could cost you depending on what you

:51:38.:51:41.

bring. New charges are in force in

:51:42.:51:45.

Hampshire for what is known as DIY waste a trip to the tip. But now, it

:51:46.:51:48.

could cost you depending on what you bring. New charges are in force in

:51:49.:51:51.

Hampshire for what is known as DIY it has taken Adam by drop off some

:51:52.:51:54.

soil and I just turned up to drop off some soil from our out there is

:51:55.:51:58.

a charge. What are you going to do a charge. What are you going to do

:51:59.:52:06.

with it all? I'm not to find out there is a charge. What are you

:52:07.:52:14.

going to do with it all? I'l not it cost Adam ?15. These new feds offer

:52:15.:52:21.

items like domestic soil, rtbble and have now been brought in across many

:52:22.:52:25.

areas of the South. Councils say they can do this, as these htems are

:52:26.:52:29.

waste an expensive day's work on the waste an expensive day's work on the

:52:30.:52:32.

garden? Yes! Charges the so,called DIY waste have now been brotght in

:52:33.:52:33.

across many areas of the Sotth. across many areas of the Sotth.

:52:34.:52:36.

Councils say they can do thhs, as these items are technically charged

:52:37.:52:41.

as non-household I believe ht is a tip tax, I think residents will feel

:52:42.:52:43.

their pain twice. They are `lready paying for a service for thdir waste

:52:44.:52:50.

collection and waste no, we have accepted that waste previously, and

:52:51.:52:51.

your normal household waste will not your normal household waste will not

:52:52.:52:54.

be charged for. But we do h`ve to charge for the waste, which

:52:55.:52:58.

expensive to get rid of. People will see they because my budget has been

:52:59.:53:03.

cut considerably, so I have to charge for that. With crushhng

:53:04.:53:07.

pressure on council budgets, an increasing number of local

:53:08.:53:09.

authorities are introducing these types of charges. So what is the

:53:10.:53:14.

damage? In Hampshire a sack of rubble now costs ?2 50 to dhspose

:53:15.:53:19.

of. In West Sussex, a bag of plasterboard will cost ?4. @nd in

:53:20.:53:22.

Dorset, a car tyre will cost you ?5 Dorset, a car tyre will cost you ?5

:53:23.:53:26.

paying for something, and now they have to. Yes, because my budget has

:53:27.:53:29.

been cut considerably, so I have to charge for that. With crushhng

:53:30.:53:31.

pressure on council budgets, an increasing number of local

:53:32.:53:33.

authorities are introducing these types of charges. So what is the

:53:34.:53:35.

damage? In Hampshire a sack of rubble now costs ?2 50 to dhspose

:53:36.:53:38.

of. In West Sussex, a bag of plasterboard will cost ?4. @nd in

:53:39.:53:41.

Dorset, a car tyre will cost you but some residents do not think these

:53:42.:53:44.

fees are I've got four grow bags in to make them smaller and manageable.

:53:45.:53:46.

And they find they do not which I have cut in half to make thdm

:53:47.:53:49.

find they do boot. What do xou think find they do boot. What do xou think

:53:50.:53:52.

deplorable. We pay our -- they want deplorable. We pay our -- they want

:53:53.:53:55.

to pound 50 for each of the bags. I wish you them in the boot. What do

:53:56.:53:58.

you think of this charge? I think it is deplorable. We pay? George drives

:53:59.:54:01.

of, to dump the soil in his own garden. But there are fears that

:54:02.:54:03.

others will not be so law-abiding. The majority of people will get on

:54:04.:54:08.

with it, and pay the charges, but it may encourage a few people hf it is

:54:09.:54:12.

a little bit too much, just basically dump their waste `t the

:54:13.:54:15.

side of the road. It is still illegal, still fly-tipping, but a

:54:16.:54:20.

local authority would then have to pay to clear that waste. On farmland

:54:21.:54:29.

near Basingstoke, we found this Incidents of fly-tipping have been

:54:30.:54:35.

on the rise. ?15 million is the cost to local authorities in England last

:54:36.:54:39.

year. Isn't there an issue when you make people pay a little bit more,

:54:40.:54:44.

but they might be more likely to do fly-tipping? No, the evidence from

:54:45.:54:50.

other authorities, are except there is a concern, but the evidence is

:54:51.:54:54.

that people don't like change initially, but they accept we have

:54:55.:54:58.

to keep our site is open. A slightly to keep our site is open. A slightly

:54:59.:55:07.

more pricey trip to the trip may not seem like austerity, but it does

:55:08.:55:12.

hate people's politics. -- pockets. For politicians, always a rhsky

:55:13.:55:19.

strategy. Just a tip! Mirial, will we end up with more fly-tipping as a

:55:20.:55:24.

result of this? Well, there is no such place as "Away". I was at a

:55:25.:55:31.

recycling centre this week, and there was one of these plastic

:55:32.:55:35.

razors. I had this image in my head of a poor fish in the seed having to

:55:36.:55:39.

swim around that. We have got to deal with our waste, there hs no

:55:40.:55:45.

place that is called "Away" were magically everything disappdars

:55:46.:55:50.

They call them recycling centres. Not everything is. One of the things

:55:51.:55:58.

the Green Party say is, recxcle repair, relax. There is a whole

:55:59.:56:03.

industry that could be set tp from that. People could work on that

:56:04.:56:07.

there is jobs in that. Somebody has to pay for it. No, but we are paying

:56:08.:56:15.

the cost and health, the fish are paying... And what happens hs

:56:16.:56:18.

society pays, all of us togdther, and people with more stuff" to us

:56:19.:56:24.

more. So we need to have a strategy again, a plan, to think abott what

:56:25.:56:29.

to do with our waste, and planned properly, everything we use either

:56:30.:56:30.

is consumed or we have to ddal with is consumed or we have to ddal with

:56:31.:56:34.

reuse it. Do you feel sympathetic reuse it. Do you feel sympathetic

:56:35.:56:40.

for the council is caught in the middle? I am conflicted on this In

:56:41.:56:47.

the 1970s and 1980s used to put everything in a single bin. Now we

:56:48.:56:50.

separate batteries, plastics, food waste. We have come an enorlous

:56:51.:56:56.

distance in how we support waste. But they were not talking there

:56:57.:56:59.

about the environment, they were talking about council budgets. We

:57:00.:57:04.

need to remember that so much of what councils do around adult social

:57:05.:57:08.

care and children's are our statutory obligations put upon them

:57:09.:57:14.

by central government. A sm`ll charge to take some waste to a

:57:15.:57:19.

recycling centre, provided ht is not core household waste...? I `m

:57:20.:57:27.

conflicted. But fly-tipping costs ?50 per incident to sort out. But

:57:28.:57:32.

what is the state for, if you cannot look after its children? Thd state

:57:33.:57:36.

and the council have to havd provision for this, and it hs really

:57:37.:57:42.

important. I don't agree, btt they were talking about the pressure on

:57:43.:57:46.

their governments. We are still borrowing in this country around ?85

:57:47.:57:50.

billion per year more than we are bringing in in revenue. Therefore we

:57:51.:57:55.

need to increase the real rdvenue. We have to get our public fhnances

:57:56.:58:01.

after -- under control. One way is to make money from waste rather than

:58:02.:58:02.

throwing it away. Now our regular round-up

:58:03.:58:04.

of the political week Four out of ten councils ard

:58:05.:58:20.

breaking political -- pollution limits. In Oxford, they are

:58:21.:58:24.

considering banning all vehhcles except electric by the end of the

:58:25.:58:31.

decade. It is the old peopld, it is children, and those with

:58:32.:58:34.

pre-existing medical condithons Pollution is just one probldm for

:58:35.:58:37.

people living on the streets. Councillors say a new Bill to help

:58:38.:58:41.

the homeless will not help hn parts of the South where house prhces are

:58:42.:58:46.

too high. In the new Forest, agricultural workers have bden

:58:47.:58:51.

clobbered by a 40% rent risd. I do an honest day's work, and this is

:58:52.:58:55.

how they repay you. The Fordstry Commission say they have too correct

:58:56.:59:00.

historic anomalies. The Chancellor reignited a debate from the past,

:59:01.:59:05.

backing new plans to build `t Dibden Bay. One development being

:59:06.:59:12.

celebrated so, pound gorill`. The Queen dropped into Prince Charles's

:59:13.:59:15.

design experiment to give it her seal of approval. -- pound brewery.

:59:16.:59:33.

Do you like primary? -- Pundbury. -- Poundbury. It is important that

:59:34.:59:37.

young people have some placd to live, and at the moment the prices

:59:38.:59:43.

at so enormous, and there is so much speculation... The housing needs to

:59:44.:59:48.

be affordable, for real people, but what tends to happen is hugd swathes

:59:49.:59:51.

of land are given to foreign investors who are there to lake

:59:52.:59:54.

speculation, for people who cannot put their money in the bank and just

:59:55.:59:59.

use it as an investment. Hotsing is Helms, and we must remember that.

:00:00.:00:06.

Begin to the results in the end Yes, I think this Government is

:00:07.:00:08.

absolutely committed to building more homes. Are we going to seek --

:00:09.:00:15.

are going to see results. Wd need local authority homes, for real

:00:16.:00:21.

people, who cannot afford to get on the property ladder. There was new

:00:22.:00:27.

social housing built in Bournemouth last year. Thank you to our guests

:00:28.:00:41.

this week. Now back to Andrdw Neill. -- Andrew Neil.

:00:42.:00:55.

Barely more than a week now until polling day,

:00:56.:01:00.

and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.

:01:01.:01:09.

If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.

:01:10.:01:13.

The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's

:01:14.:01:15.

use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary

:01:16.:01:17.

of State, after the discovery of further emails.

:01:18.:01:25.

Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.

:01:26.:01:30.

Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -

:01:31.:01:32.

so could it swing the election in his favour?

:01:33.:01:35.

We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.

:01:36.:01:37.

The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process

:01:38.:01:40.

that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.

:01:41.:01:45.

That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton

:01:46.:01:48.

from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.

:01:49.:01:53.

But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,

:01:54.:01:55.

Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads

:01:56.:02:01.

This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election

:02:02.:02:08.

There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that

:02:09.:02:15.

Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.

:02:16.:02:20.

Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,

:02:21.:02:26.

It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.

:02:27.:02:31.

I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,

:02:32.:02:34.

And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two

:02:35.:02:39.

challenger candidates and the first African-American President.

:02:40.:02:43.

It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything

:02:44.:02:52.

The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.

:02:53.:02:57.

But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should

:02:58.:03:04.

have charged us money, because it's better than any movie

:03:05.:03:08.

at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.

:03:09.:03:10.

That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton

:03:11.:03:22.

still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%

:03:23.:03:31.

chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and

:03:32.:03:34.

strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank

:03:35.:03:40.

Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators

:03:41.:03:43.

agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people

:03:44.:03:48.

realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking

:03:49.:03:53.

for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either

:03:54.:03:57.

candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude

:03:58.:04:02.

before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,

:04:03.:04:07.

gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the

:04:08.:04:12.

minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100

:04:13.:04:16.

day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people

:04:17.:04:22.

an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem

:04:23.:04:26.

in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more

:04:27.:04:33.

than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to

:04:34.:04:40.

Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without

:04:41.:04:45.

both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the

:04:46.:04:51.

Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead

:04:52.:04:57.

in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state

:04:58.:05:02.

battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls

:05:03.:05:08.

yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear

:05:09.:05:16.

trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people

:05:17.:05:19.

who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.

:05:20.:05:23.

Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with

:05:24.:05:28.

Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be

:05:29.:05:32.

against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary

:05:33.:05:36.

Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of

:05:37.:05:42.

the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a

:05:43.:05:46.

former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He

:05:47.:05:51.

seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI

:05:52.:05:59.

investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In

:06:00.:06:06.

the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to

:06:07.:06:10.

Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton

:06:11.:06:19.

server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate

:06:20.:06:26.

warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a

:06:27.:06:29.

warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing

:06:30.:06:36.

the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,

:06:37.:06:43.

this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by

:06:44.:06:48.

Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described

:06:49.:06:53.

the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this

:06:54.:06:58.

sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.

:06:59.:07:05.

They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's

:07:06.:07:12.

laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is

:07:13.:07:19.

that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape

:07:20.:07:24.

caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to

:07:25.:07:28.

be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And

:07:29.:07:33.

so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so

:07:34.:07:39.

fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%

:07:40.:07:43.

lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred

:07:44.:07:48.

of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how

:07:49.:07:54.

because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly

:07:55.:07:59.

serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have

:08:00.:08:03.

got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must

:08:04.:08:11.

surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against

:08:12.:08:18.

the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this

:08:19.:08:21.

information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have

:08:22.:08:26.

said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been

:08:27.:08:30.

accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if

:08:31.:08:35.

they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November

:08:36.:08:39.

surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on

:08:40.:08:44.

Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we

:08:45.:08:48.

have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about

:08:49.:08:53.

tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The

:08:54.:08:58.

Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did

:08:59.:09:01.

not see anything else in the next few days.

:09:02.:09:04.

Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has

:09:05.:09:10.

been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying

:09:11.:09:11.

unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?

:09:12.:09:15.

What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may

:09:16.:09:17.

find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe

:09:18.:09:20.

she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come

:09:21.:09:26.

Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,

:09:27.:09:29.

you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly

:09:30.:09:35.

Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just

:09:36.:09:39.

lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these

:09:40.:09:45.

days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It

:09:46.:10:07.

is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number

:10:08.:10:12.

of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be

:10:13.:10:18.

the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.

:10:19.:10:23.

The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim

:10:24.:10:28.

Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak

:10:29.:10:39.

lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all

:10:40.:10:50.

three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and

:10:51.:10:53.

he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money

:10:54.:10:57.

behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the

:10:58.:11:00.

States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on

:11:01.:11:12.

secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one

:11:13.:11:18.

of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am

:11:19.:11:21.

told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater

:11:22.:11:29.

is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would

:11:30.:11:37.

suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst

:11:38.:11:43.

nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from

:11:44.:11:48.

Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on

:11:49.:11:52.

television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best

:11:53.:11:56.

around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has

:11:57.:12:01.

a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows

:12:02.:12:08.

why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant

:12:09.:12:12.

job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political

:12:13.:12:17.

parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the

:12:18.:12:22.

SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,

:12:23.:12:26.

something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment

:12:27.:12:29.

because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and

:12:30.:12:35.

the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough

:12:36.:12:45.

tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage

:12:46.:12:47.

in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up

:12:48.:12:52.

two farads. That is how you win this election.

:12:53.:12:56.

Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports

:12:57.:13:03.

Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He

:13:04.:13:08.

thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a

:13:09.:13:12.

great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.

:13:13.:13:14.

It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.

:13:15.:13:19.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will

:13:20.:13:25.

be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to

:13:26.:13:29.

rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th

:13:30.:13:36.

of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC

:13:37.:13:37.

world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.

:13:38.:13:39.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:40.:14:29.

He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.

:14:30.:14:31.

But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.

:14:32.:14:40.

I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government

:14:41.:14:45.

Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.

:14:46.:14:49.

You've got to do something! It's only you that can!

:14:50.:14:53.

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