Browse content similar to 23/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman, | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
This man might have something to say about that. | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring? | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
on the country's second city which has been in the hands of | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
But what will be the fallout from this key clash? | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
In the south, 11 of the candidates in the Witney by-election | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
when they have so little hope of winning? | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
world. Should all private landlords be licensed to help tackle the | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
squalor? And with me - as always - | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
the best and the brightest political panel in the business: Toby Young, | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn - The last leader was in the job | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
a mere 18 days before she decided The favourite to succeed her then | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
quit the party after a now infamous Ukip's biggest donor says the party | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
is at "breaking point". This morning, the former | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans, announced that she would be | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
running for the leadership. I've thought long and hard | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
about this leadership bid, and one of the reasons I've perhaps | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
delayed announcing it is because I wanted to be absolutely | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
sure that I had the support And I can confirm that I have | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
more than enough signatures on the nomination form already | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
to be able to go forward. Let's not forget that 3,000 people | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
signed a petition in support of me I know head office was besieged | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
with letters in support. I would not be doing this | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
if I didn't have the backing of our members, because our members | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
are the most important Well, Paul Nuttall was | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
Nigel Farage's deputy for many years and plenty of people saw him | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
as a leader-in-waiting. Let's ask the man himself - | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
Paul Nuttall joins me now. Yes. I've made the decision that I'm | :02:49. | :03:02. | |
going to put my name forward to be the next leader of Ukip. I have huge | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
support across the country, not only amongst people at the top of the | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
party in Westminster and with the MEPs, but also the grassroots. I | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
want to be the unity candidate. Ukip needs to come together. I'm not | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
going to gild the lily. Ukip is looking over a political cliff at | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
the moment. It will either step four step back, and I want to tell us to | :03:26. | :03:36. | |
step backwards. You say it faces an ex-distension or threat, which means | :03:37. | :03:38. | |
it's possible it has no future at all. Students of political history | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
know that political parties take a long time to get going. They can | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is facing an existential crisis. What | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
happened over the summer has put us on a... We could be on a spiral that | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
we can't get off. But I believe I am the man to bring the factions | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
together, to create unity within the party, and to build on the structure | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
and get us ready for the common challenges. Why didn't you stand | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
last time? Because I have spent the last four or five years of my life | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
travelling around the country. I have done more Ukip meetings than | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
anybody else, spending a lot of time away from home. With Brexit, I felt | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
that my job and Nigel's job was done and we could hand over to the next | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
generation. That doesn't seem to be the case, and maybe it's time for | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
someone who is an old hand. I'm very experienced and I know the party | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
inside out. Maybe it's time to step in and bring the party together You | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
told the Liverpool Echo on the night of July that you didn't wish to take | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
on Nigel Farage, you didn't want that to happen to your family and | :04:50. | :04:59. | |
friends. What has changed? The party is facing an existential crisis and | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
I want to make sure that Ukip is on the pitch to keep the ball into the | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
open net we have in politics. We have a Conservative Party who is | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
moving toward Brexit, but we have to be there too. Why would you be | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne would be an excellent candidate I | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
thought the 2015 manifesto was the best out of all the political | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
parties. I would be the best candidate because of my experience. | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
I am not part of any faction within the party. Is she? I get on well | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
with everybody, and I believe I could be the man to bring the party | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
together. Do you get on with Iain Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
supporting one of your rivals? Yes, I get on well with him. He is able | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
to choose whoever he wants to be the next leader of the party. After | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
November 28, the leadership election, we all say, the past the | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
past. It becomes Daisy row for the new leader. We forget all that has | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
before and move on. You won the referendum. Mrs May is adopting some | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
of your policies, like grammar schools. What is the point of Ukip | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
these days? Twofold. We don't have Brexit. Mrs May said she would not | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
invoke Article 50 until the end of March, and we don't know if that | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
will happen. We need to ensure a strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
really does mean Brexit. We have a huge opportunity in working class | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
communities where the Labour Party no longer represents them. I believe | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Ukip can become the voice of working people. If you were the leader, | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
would Ukip be a bigger threat to Labour in the north or the Tories in | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
the South? You save Labour in the north, and people often to make that | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
mistake. There's working class communities right across the country | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
is. There are working-class communities in Bristol just | :07:04. | :07:15. | |
as in Newcastle. We are second in a number of northern seats, and | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
southern seats as well, and I believe the party can move into | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
these communities. It can only do so if Ukip is on the pitch, and I | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
intend to make sure that's the case. I don't think we have portrayed a | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
good image over the summer. Is that called British understatement? A | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
to build a strong national Executive Committee. We need to ensure our | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
branches are ready for the fight and concentrate on local elections. I've | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
got the experience. I'm now throwing my hat into the ring, and I'm the | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
only person who can keep Ukip in the game. What role would you give Nigel | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Farage, if any? I will be the candidate of compromise. I would see | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
what Nigel wanted to do. Would you keep in the leader of the freedom | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
and democracy group in the European Parliament? There would have to be | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
compromise on both sides, and we would need to talk about it. I don't | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
know what Nigel wants to do. Do you think his support, his association | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win female votes in this country? | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Personally, I would not have gone out and campaigned or said anything | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
about Donald Trump, but I don't think Ukip has come out and backed | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I wouldn't have even spoken about the | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
American election, because I think the two candidates are quite | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
appalling. Some up for us. If you win, what would be the hallmark of | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
your Ukip leadership? The first couple of months would be ensuring | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
that Ukip unifies. Saying no to factions, bringing people together. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
move forward. If we don't unify Ukip will not be around for much | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
longer. Thanks for being with us this morning. | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
We won't have to wait too long to find out who Ukip's | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
new leader will be - the winner will be announced | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
Who would be the best leader for Ukip? I think the difference between | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
the field a few weeks ago and today is that this field is a lot | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
stronger. Whether it's Paul or Suzanne, I think... It is hard to | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
say, with Aaron Banks and apparently Nigel Farage hacking another | :09:44. | :09:53. | |
candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip to be a strong force in British | :09:54. | :10:03. | |
politics. I think the fact there is a stronger field now is good news | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst nightmare in the north of England? | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
It is. I think the personality difference and presentational | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
difference is interesting. Suzanne Evans is going for the Conservative | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
county vote. There's a lot to be taken there by Ukip. He would | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
probably be more appealing to the Labour vote. It is interesting. At | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
the moment, pollsters say that the Ukip vote splits pretty easily | :10:36. | :10:47. | |
between Labour and Tory. But things always collapse. When they have made | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
inroads into Tower Hamlets and Barking, they collapse, because they | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
fight amongst each other so much. But not always with fists! Does Ukip | :10:58. | :11:09. | |
have a future? And who would best secure that future? It does for at | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
least two years, until we Brexit. We have to believe that that will | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
happen. That was an impressive pitch there from Paul, certainly as the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
unity candidate, after the car crash we have seen on TV screens this | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
morning. But it doesn't go beyond May 20 19. What then? There is no | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
point being called the United Kingdom Independence party any | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
longer. What will happen after May 2019? If you want to hoover up votes | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
of the back of Brexit, you need to start looking further ahead than two | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
years. The person who wins that leadership contest is the person who | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
will sum that up the best. We shall see. | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
In June 2014, the group which calls itself the Islamic State in Iraq | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
and the Levant captured Iraq's second city, Mosul. | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
Later that month the group announced it was establishing a 'caliphate', | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
or an Islamic state, on the territories it | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided by Iranian-backed Shia fighters | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air support, began the assault | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Then they spot a truck bomb from so-called Islamic State. | :12:21. | :12:38. | |
They destroy it before it destroys them. | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
These are the first steps in the battle for Mosul, | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
the Northern Iraqi city IS has made its stronghold since 2014. | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
Controlling the city of around 2 million people means | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
that they established governance, they establish a territorial base. | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
This is what has obsessed everyone, because with a territorial base | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
you are capable of doing more than if you are simply an insurgency | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
movement in the fabric of another society. | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
It's being billed as the biggest military operation in Iraq | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
since the war in 2003, the biggest moment in the international effort | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Here is how the various forces are approaching the city. | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
Heading to Mosul from the south the elite troops of the Iraqi army. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
Known as the Golden division, trained and accompanied | :13:30. | :13:31. | |
From the North, a force made up of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
Also from the South, a militia made up of Shia fighters | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
who have been accused of human rights abuses. | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
British planes have bombed outlying villages, reportedly guided | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
in by British personnel on the ground. | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
To the North West, a corridor has been left for some | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
of the 3000 plus IS fighters, in theory an escape route | :14:01. | :14:02. | |
which could limit the bloodshed when fighting starts in the city. | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
We've had 4-5 days of battle and it's taking place | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
in the outlying villages and there have been some | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
successes and some failures, but the momentum is building. | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
And the real question will be when the attackers get | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
towards the city itself, how strong are the defences? | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
It will crack but it might crack within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
IS has fought back, on Friday they attack sites | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
in the city of Kirkuk, including a power station. | :14:33. | :14:34. | |
The United Nations believes hundreds of thousands of families | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
have been rounded up as potential human shields. | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
The battle could be bloody, but what about when it's over? | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
The Shia militias, the Iraqi army, the Peshmerga guerrillas, | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
some of the Turkish elements, they all want a share of the action. | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
They are in Mosul, not for altruistic reasons. | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
They are there because they want to be part of whatever happens next. | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
The biggest issue is how the Sunni majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
militias which have helped to liberate them. | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis Humphrey went to Mosul | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
If it all seems like something from the archive, when the Middle | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
East went up in flames and was then carved up, | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
it is because that is what is happening in Iraq right now. | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
National identity has been cut across by other identities such | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
And that means that putting together a so-called nation state again | :15:23. | :15:32. | |
Almost certainly there will be a new form of Kurdish state, | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
almost certainly in northern Iraq at the end of this crisis, | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
and what is happening in Mosul is a microcosm of what is happening | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
elsewhere across the Levant which is that it is melting down. | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
Big questions, questions that come after the battle. | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
The coalition forces are advancing but this is just the beginning. | :15:52. | :15:53. | |
I'm joined now by the International Development Minister Rory Stewart. | :15:54. | :16:03. | |
In a former life he was the coalition Deputy-Governor of two | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
provinces in Southern Iraq following the Iraq intervention of 2003. | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
Is there any doubt that at some stage Mosul will fall to the forces | :16:15. | :16:24. | |
of Iraq and its allies? The first thing is that war is very uncertain | :16:25. | :16:33. | |
and there are cliches about it being the graveyard of predictions and we | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
don't want to make confident predictions but the basic structure | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
is that there are 30,000 Iraqi forces outside and only a few | :16:42. | :16:51. | |
thousand Daesh fighters inside and I would say it is overwhelmingly | :16:52. | :16:53. | |
likely that the batter will one STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
Iraqi forces. June 2014 was a great success, they | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
took a city of over in people and they created what they tried to | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
create a million state of 7 million people, stretching across the Iraqi | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
Syrian border, but since then they have lost territory quite rapidly. | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
Now they are losing the outskirts of Mosul, and that is a fundamental | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
blow. Islamic State is all about territory and holding state, that is | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
what makes it different from Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
will be a cynic -- significant blow to their credibility. Hillary | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
Clinton said on Wednesday's presidential debate that when Iraqi | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
forces with their allies including the United Kingdom gain control of | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
Mosul they should continue to press into Syria to take back Raqqa which | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
is the de facto capital of the caliphate, what is left of it, do we | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into Syria? Very important question. | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from people on the Syrian side of the | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
border and that is an important principle -- the lead. In the end of | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
that enemy, Islamic State, is a common enemy for odd members of the | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
coalition including the Iraqi government. -- all members. There is | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
likely to be a humanitarian crisis especially if it ends up with street | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
to street fighting and IS are difficult to dislodge what are we | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
doing about that? We are doing very detailed scenario planning. It is | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
very uncertain what the scenario will be but much investment has gone | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
into creating a network of camps, refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps | :18:48. | :18:57. | |
around cash refugee camps, and that is where money, British money, 40 | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
million has gone recently into supporting that, especially in terms | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
of medical support to people. The United nation's emergency response | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
budget is ?196 million but only one third funded which sounds like we | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
are putting up a big chunk of what is already being funded. Why is | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
that? The international committee can't say they haven't seen this | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
assault coming, and the humanitarian fallout they may see from it. You | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
are absolutely right. We have seen it coming and we have been planning | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
since debris and we have put in about ?167 million into this -- | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
planning since February. There has been a change in the nature of the | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
appeal, and if there is a lag in the accounting of it, but the money we | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
need at this stage is in place and we do have the support structure in | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
place for those refugees. You are right the United Nations is | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
continuing with its appeal and is asking for more money at the moment. | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
The converse magazine wrote this week that preparations for a big | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
exodus of people leaving the city have been made -- Economist | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
magazine. But confidence is not high in the preparations, is that a | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
unfair conclusion? If you can imagine the different scenarios it | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
could be a few thousand and it could be a few hundred thousand coming out | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
of the city through a front line where the war is going on, that is | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
very difficult. You have to screen those people and disarm them, and | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
keep families together, and transport them and you have to bring | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
them into the refugee camps. The people working on this have been | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
working on this for long time, we have mapped the different routes we | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
have good camp infrastructure in place and we have people who have | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
worked in south to dam and other areas who are putting their | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
structures in place -- South Sudan. It is never easy but I think we have | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
done everything we can in the preparation for this. What is the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
British role in what will probably be an even bigger issue, assuming | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
that Mosul is liberated and retaken, the humanitarian crisis is dealt | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
with, what role will we play in the rebuilding of Mosul? That will be | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
crucial to the future of Iraq, the second-biggest city and it will need | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
to be rebuilt. It will need to be rebuilt as a community as well as | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni community that is not harassed by | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
the Shia. -- and eight. You are right. One of the core drivers is | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
that the Sunni community felt excluded and they did not feel they | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
have the trust from the Baghdad government. A lasting solution is | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
stopping some of Islamic State coming back, that involves making | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
sure the Sunni community have a stake in their future. That is | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
making sure that the governing structures are in place. The UK s | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
response is twofold, we have got to get the humanitarian aid right, that | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
is the short term, people who might be malnourished, coming out of the | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
front line. The second thing is working with the Iraqi government to | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
make sure that as we rebuild Mosul we do so in a way that that | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
population feels a connection to the Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
territory everywhere in the Levant, it is almost finished in Iraq, we | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
think. It is down to one district in Libya, as well, just one small part | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
of the town. I suppose the risk is, if life is becoming more difficult | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
across these areas, it can start to look more in Europe and the United | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
Kingdom as a place to continue its terrorist attacks? That is a real | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
danger. You are right. This is a group which has proved over the last | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
five years very unpredictable and it changes for it quickly full stop | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
often it does unexpected things In 2009 its predecessor had been | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
largely wiped out in Iraq and when it was under pressure in Syria it | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
went back into Iraq, and in the past it didn't hold territory but now it | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
holds territory, so you are right. There is a serious risk that as it | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
gets squeezed in the middle East it will try to pop up somewhere else | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
and Mac could include Europe and the United States -- that could. They | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
say that is something they have focused on full stop we also have a | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
big focus on counterterrorism security and making sure that we | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
keep the United Kingdom and Europe say. One final question. -- say -- | :23:38. | :23:49. | |
safe. Maybe events in Mosul could add to the migration crisis in | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
Europe, is that a possibility? Again, you are right, we have seen | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
in Syria it can push migration, the biggest push the migration was the | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
conflict in Syria, and that's the reason why we have but so much | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
energy into getting those refugee camps in place and getting the | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
humanitarian response in place - put so much energy. People will want | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
to remain in their homes, this is their country, but we have got to | :24:16. | :24:17. | |
make it possible for them and that means in the short term looking | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
after their shelter and in the medium to long-term making sure they | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
have livelihoods, jobs and an economic development which is why | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
our support in Iraq is in the UK National interests because it deals | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
with these issues of migration and terrorists. Thanks for joining us. | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence Secretary. | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
Does Labour support British participation in this offensive We | :24:50. | :25:00. | |
fully support the participation in this offensive, extremely important | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
move forward and we voted for this back in 2014. We are asking the | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
government question is, of course, I was asking the Secretary of State | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
this week about this very offensive but we are fully behind our RAF | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
pilots out there and be trading that has been going on to help the forces | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
on the ground. -- the training full stop that is very clear. I wonder if | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
you'll lead it shares that clarity and that position. -- is your | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn has said. | :25:37. | :25:38. | |
What's been done in Iraq is done by the Iraqi | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
government, and currently supported by the British government. | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
I did not support it when it came up. | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
Well, I'm not sure how successful it's been, because most | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
of the action now appears to be moving in to Syria, so I think we | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
He doesn't sound very supportive. The issue about Mosul, it has been | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
very carefully prepared as Rory Stewart said and I hope we have | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
learned the lessons from previous offensives where we haven't learnt | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
sufficiently, and that is going to be crucial in this context. How the | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
aftermath is going to be dealt with. Of course will stop that clip was | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
from November last year, and things have changed. Two weeks ago he told | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
the BBC" I'm not sure it is working", in reference to air | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
strikes in Iraq, but it is working. We have got to see what happens in | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
Mosul, it is a very high-risk operation, but we also have to face | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
the fact that the people there are living under tyranny at the moment. | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
We have to ask very cirrus question shall stop he says he's not sure it | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
is working, when Mosul is the last major target be cleared of Islamic | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
State in Iraq. The combination of Allied air power has worked, why is | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
he not sure it is working? Because we have seen difficulties in the | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
past. But this was two weeks ago. It is essential that the work is done, | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
both planning for the refugees as Rory Stewart referred to, but also | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
in terms of reconstruction of the city and its community as you | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
mentioned. These are vital. This was about the ability to make progress | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
with Allied air power, special forces in Iraq, on the ground, do | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
you accept so far that has a strategy that seems to be working to | :27:27. | :27:37. | |
read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq of Islamic State the question of the | :27:38. | :27:46. | |
car began placement. Ulloa -- we can't be complacent. The problems | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
they are creating where ever they are urged that we must continue to | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
pursue them. This is the first time we have spoken to since you have | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
become the Shadow Defence Secretary. I hope we will have a longer | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
interview. Will Labour's next manifesto include a commitment to | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
the renewal of Trident? It will We made that commitment in 2007, that | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
is a firm commitment and we will honour that to our coalition allies | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
and our industrial partners and that is the vote which was taken | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
democratically and repeatedly has been reaffirmed by Labour conference | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
and we are a democratic party vote up you have squared that with Jeremy | :28:29. | :28:37. | |
Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy and he understands the situation, | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
but we also want to push for the UK to play a much bigger role on the | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
international stage on multilateral disarmament talks. You were very | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
clear there, I thank you for that. Support for Trident will be in the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
next Labour manifesto. What has happened to Labour's review of | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
Trident policy? That review has been taking place over the year, we had a | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
very clear reaffirmation in the conference boat this year, we are | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
reaffirming our commitment to Trident -- vote. The review can t | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
change that? There is a process of review and a fair number of issues | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
related to defence, all parties do this. Of course. The review can t | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
change the commitment to Trident? We are not changing the commitment to | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
Trident. Russia is now the main strategic threat to this country? It | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
is a major strategic threat and we have got to work with our Nato | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
allies very closely and make sure that we respond and that we do not | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
let things pass. For example, we should be calling out Russia for the | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
way it has been a bombing humanitarian aid and we should be | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
taking them to international court over this, but we should also be | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
strengthening sanctions, somewhat imposed over Ukraine. We try to do | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
that, but the Italians wouldn't let us. The Italians did not want to | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
participate in the European initiative but that doesn't stop | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
individual countries for the Britain should step up? Yes, we should look | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
at what is practical to impose. Thanks for joining us. | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
Mosul is not the only major battle being waged in the Middle East. | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
The city of Aleppo in northern Syria has seen some of the heaviest | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
bombardment since Syria's five-year-long civil war began. | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
This week Russian warships, in a deliberate show of power, | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
sailed west through the English channel en route to Syria. | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
Nato says it's Russia's "largest surface deployment" since the end | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
of the Cold War in what is thought to be preparation | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
for a final assault on the besieged city of Aleppo. | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
In the city itself fighting resumed overnight - | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
following a 3-day ceasefire - with more air strikes and heavy | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
clashes in the city's rebel-held eastern districts. | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
Almost 500 people have been killed and 2,000 injured | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
since Syrian government forces, backed by Russian air strikes, | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
This week Theresa May condemned Vladimir Putin's involvement | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
in Syria, accusing Moscow of being behind "sickening | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
atrocities" in support of President Assad's regime. | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
But European leaders are divided on how to respond and, | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
with the United States preoccupied with domestic politics, | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
President Putin senses this is his moment to bring the Syrian | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
I'm joined now by the BBC's former Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
Bridget Kendall, who is now Master of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC studio again. Let me put up this | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
satellite image of Aleppo here, to get an idea of the scale. It was the | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
biggest city in Syria. It was the commercial capital and a huge | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
cultural hub as well. Almost the New York of Syria, to give you an idea | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
of its significance to the country. Let me show you now how it's been | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
divided. The rebels are now in control of the eastern part, about | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
eight miles long and three miles wide there, they're in purple. They | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
are under great attacks still. Is it inevitable that that purple part | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
falls to the regime? That is what President as Saad, the Russians and | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
the Iranians hope. The fierce bombardments we have seen is part of | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
that. I'm reminded very much in the Russian tactics of what happened in | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when the Russians said, a warning for all | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
civilians to lead, and then they went ahead and they basically raised | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
it to the ground. They are talking about Al Nusrah as being one of the | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
rebel groups. They got rid of all of the terrorists. They talk about it | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The purpose of going in is to get rid of | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
them. You get the civilians out and then you take it. But this isn't | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
like Chechnya. It is much more complex. We have seen an attempt to | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
take Aleppo before, and then there was a rebel counter offensive. It's | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
not so certain. And there are so many different parties involved We | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
have seen the alarm in the west of the extent of the civilian | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
casualties. There have been rumblings in the west of, shouldn't | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
the United States do something? Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
force? This Russian aircraft carrier steaming its way towards the Eastern | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture, both to its own people, but also to | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
the West, to say, don't get involved in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
and stop us because we could up the ante. They have not been great | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
visual pictures, because the aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
out, belching out smoke! If the rebel controlled area does fall it | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
would be seen as a great victory for President as Saad and his Russian | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
allies. What is the aim of Russia here? What would they then do, if | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan that President Putin set out in his | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
UN speech in 2014, before Russia went into Syria. The aim is to put | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
President Assad back in charge. President Putin said this weekend | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
that either is Assad in Damascus, or its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
between. They want to eliminate the argument for a moderate opposition. | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
They want to make it plain that the only way to get a stable Syria is to | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
have Assad back in charge. Even sue argue for a rump steak lit, leaving | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
aside what is happening with IAS. They have already said they want to | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
have an enlarged military presence at their bases. And they have a big | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
naval base. It is. It is a chance to push for this when he sees the West | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
is being distracted and divided Europe and America, by elections and | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
so on. Just before the US elections. The Americans are worried about | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
that, Europeans are being distracted by Brexit. He can push to his | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
maximum advantage now, before there is a new US president. If they do | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
take that part of Aleppo, and that part of northern Syria, does Mr | :35:55. | :36:03. | |
Putin want us to recognise, to admit, that that is now his sphere | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
of influence? I think the rhetoric from the Russians is that they want | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
the West to recognise that they are an equal powerful partner. It's not | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
just the US that runs the writ in the Middle East. Russia is as | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
important as it is. It is engaging with Saudi Arabia and has mended | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
fences with Turkey. Syria is the place from which it can launch its | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
message that it is a big player in the Middle East. Russia wants the | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
West to understand that this isn't a country that was dismembered after | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
the end of the Soviet Union and is now a week. It is back, and it is | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
strong. That is an important message. Looking at the economy It | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
is in recession. GDP has been falling, partly because of the price | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
of oil. It is highly dependent on hydrocarbons, and is expected to | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
fall again. Its people are falling again. People don't realise how | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
small the Russian economy is. Its GDP is about the size of Italy's. It | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
is smaller than the UK economy. Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
ago. But so is Britain's does it help to take people's mind of this? | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
A huge shock to the Russian economy was a drop in the price of oil and a | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
price of gas. A drop in the price of the ruble as well. This is hurting | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
the people of Russia. On the one hand, it is the war in Syria, which | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
is very important for Russia to sort out that part of the world and | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
dispensed terrorists who might be danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
But he had also has presidential election is going up. They are | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
supposed to be 2018, but some feel he will bring them forward to 2 17, | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
because the economy is not doing so well. But you need a good story for | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
the Russian people. Thank you very much. | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :38:15. | :38:27. | |
Welcome to Sunday Politics South, my name's Peter Henley. | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
On today's show, why stand in a by-election | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
when you know you have no chance of winning? | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
We'll be winning some of thd people who did just that | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
parties are the glory of Brhtish democracy or a sign that thd bigger | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
First, let's meet the two politicians who are going to be here | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
George Hollingbery is the Conservative MP | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
Paul Harvey is the leader of the Labour | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
Cast your mind back to the Conservative party conference | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
and we heard this tough talk from the prime | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
Something else we need to do, take big, sometimes even | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
controversial decisions abott our country's infrastructure because we | :39:16. | :39:17. | |
need to get Britain firing in all areas again. | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
One of those big infrastructure projects that she | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
went on to mention specific`lly was the new runway in the south,east of | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
The decision which has been postponed on an almost weekly basis | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
and now we're told the government's preference between Heathrow and | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
Gatwick will be announced ndxt week, probably Tuesday, but parli`ment | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
might not get to vote for another year. | :39:40. | :39:40. | |
continuity of ducking the dhsused because this is how it has been | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
It will be portrayed anyway anyone wishes to portray it. | :39:46. | :40:00. | |
This is a process that has gone on for some | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
People have been ducking thhs one for 40 years and it's begun | :40:07. | :40:33. | |
to hurt and it is absolutelx the time to make that decishon. | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
Now, the procedure was laid out by the Prime | :40:37. | :40:38. | |
Minister in the house, only on weapon state, | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
at Prime minister's questions and it's very | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
The vote of MPs won't be until next winter. | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
The process would have been exactly the same whether | :40:47. | :40:48. | |
Whilst the infrastructure commission looked at this, policies were | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
developed, MPs get a vote at the end of it. | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
This is about political sensitivities, not just planning | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
This is about containing Boris Johnson. | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
There's the letter from the Prime Minister | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
to all the ministers with this odd arrangement where collectivd | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
responsibility is suspended for a few weeks, we don't know ex`ctly how | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
Then they have to be quiet, if they have some track record of | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
These are Cabinet ministers who have constituencies | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
There is no discussion, discussion about them | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
having special rights to argue with the infrastructure comlission. | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
They have two have had a position on this | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
They can retell that position to the commission. | :41:28. | :41:29. | |
Other than that, it's a perfectly sensible | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
and rational arrangement to allow them to have represent their | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
constituents who are going to be profoundly affected by this | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
Not forgetting that the dechsion is on the Davis commission | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
recommendations which are before the Cabinet | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
I must just reemphasise, this year which we | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
are now looking at would have happened under any scenario. | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
It is laid down in law that this has to be | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
consulted upon and then acthoned by the commission and then xou can | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
And there may well be judicial reviews and it is | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
really difficult but is it political? | :41:58. | :41:58. | |
There was a by-election this week and you don't want sack | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
There was a by-election this week and you don't want -- Zac | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
Goldsmith resigning in Richlond over the issue of Heathrow creathng | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
another by-election, creating another vote. | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
The truth of the matter is, on these infrastructure issues, as bhg as | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
this is for both Gatwick and Heathrow, for those comlunities | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
affected and constantly livhng with this and for the business community | :42:14. | :42:15. | |
that is desperate for a decision to be made | :42:16. | :42:17. | |
so that we can deal with the | :42:18. | :42:19. | |
issues presented by both options, there has to be a proper discussion, | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
there has to be a vote and there has to be a decision made. | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
Somebody, somewhere, has to make the responsibility for this huge | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
It's not good for the image of politics. | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
That is entirely down to thd Cabinet committee on Tuesday. | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
Somebody who is involved even a tiny bit in this | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
is a member of Parliament shouldn't takd risks | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
There is a clear decision to be made by the Cabinet | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
committee and the decision has not been made. | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
The letter says that ministers who are opposed are | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
Well, there are no ministers opposed, to Gatwick, who expressed a | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
It only applies to Boris Johnson and Justine Greening. | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
We're talking here about process and whether it's the right | :43:12. | :43:13. | |
Whether we should build airport capacity. | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
Those particular Cabinet ministers, if it turns out to be a | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
Heathrow decision, are going to need to be able to... | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
You've just got to make surd that the rules are there | :43:23. | :43:24. | |
so that everyone knows when that decision is taken exactly what | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
The fact is, within a year, we are going to know exactlx where | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
we're going whatever decision is made. | :43:32. | :43:33. | |
Where it is going to be built, when, and over what period. | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
That is a huge change from last 40 years. | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
Not quite know ifs, no buts but we will be | :43:39. | :43:40. | |
getting their next week. We hope. | :43:41. | :43:42. | |
So, the Witney by-election to replace former Prime Ministdr David | :43:43. | :43:44. | |
The probably unsurprising fact is that the Tories | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
held on, although with a majority slashed from 25,000 to 5000. | :43:49. | :43:50. | |
Perhaps surprising is that the Liberal | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
Increasing their share of the vote by 23%. | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
Joining us from our Oxfordshire studio is the party's one rdmaining | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
MEP, I always say this, don't I, Catherine? | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
Basically, you're back to where you were before | :44:04. | :44:13. | |
the Prime Minister held this seat, plus a few extra | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
for all the trees you cut down to make all | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
This was a huge boost for the Lib Dems. | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
A 20% gain in the vote, where we were fourth placed | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
This was the Conservatives' tenth most safe seat and | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
You know, we've had hundreds of volunteers coming across | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
the country to help us out here in Witney and it was a great result | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
But it wasn't a referendum on Brexit, which | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
is how it is being spun now over the weekend, isn't it? | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
There's lots of Remainers and then it just became | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
Well, it's a about all sorts of issues, national issues | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
Liz has been campaigning to save a health centre, | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
it's about jobs, trade, of course, it's about Brexit which goes through | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
Do you really believe that the people who pushed xou into | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
that second place were saying, we don't want to leave the DU. | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
We don't want the Conservathves we don't want Labour. | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
Now, the official opposition didn't increase their vote `t all. | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
This is Her Majesty's official opposition. | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
They should be the ones challenging the government, | :45:36. | :45:37. | |
nearly mid-term. And they didn't. | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
We actually had a really bad general election last time and we | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
But this result on Thursday night shows that | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
We are winning council by-elections up and | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
We still stand for the free, open and tolerant country. | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
We are pro-European party so whatever people vote for | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
Do you think that the speaker should give you | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
It would be nice if we got our due deserves. | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
They keep asking why we are not more on the | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
media and why don't we get called more in the House of Commons. | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
That's not something I can deal with but, | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
perhaps, this will send a mdssage to all those who report polhtical | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
parties, the Lib Dems are still here. | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
We are a serious political party we stand for many thousands | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
of people up and down the country, including those people in Whtney. | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
Paul Harvey, do they have backing as the opposition? | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
The truth of the opposition is that the Labour vote | :46:54. | :46:55. | |
In Witney, we have tremendotsly good councillors. | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
Labour councillors on west Oxfordshire district Council | :47:04. | :47:04. | |
are doing an awful lot of work for those communities. | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
Duncan Enright has been there 20 years. | :47:08. | :47:08. | |
Ad excellent local candidatd that meant a lot of | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
Laura Price, our local county council there. | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
Where we have Labour councillors in these constituencies, | :47:19. | :47:19. | |
The Labour vote came out in those areas. | :47:20. | :47:36. | |
There was a high-profile Grden debate, Larry Sanders, brother of | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
Altogether, you split the vote between the three of you. | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
The truth of the matter is, the Liberal | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
They used to boast about taking the seats. | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
The Conservatives also lost a significant amount of the vote, | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
There is a truth in this matter for all three parties. | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
You probably picked up some Ukip votes. | :47:57. | :47:58. | |
You've run half of the by-election campaigns in | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
You've got to look at percentages because | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
Not a bad turn out for a by-election. | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
Not bad. 45% of the vote. | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
It's where Douglas Hurd started it's where David Cameron | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
A brand-new local candidate, he started at exactly | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
45%. The Liberals scored 30%. | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
So, is there much to see here? Not a lot. | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
Let me just say that anybodx who says that the Liberals | :48:31. | :48:32. | |
didn't do pretty well there is talking through thdir head. | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour did well, didn't they? | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
Labour Party has faced nationally at the moment, I think it w`s a | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
reasonably creditable performance for them to. | :48:44. | :48:44. | |
Vea no one can say the Liberals didn't do reasonably well. | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
They did. They fought incredibly hard. | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
The fact is, the Conservative party still won that seat very easily | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
The idea that it is not a s`fe seat still, all I can say is | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
I'd love their targeting strategy to maintain that illusion. | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
So, you're going to go for all the safe seats | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
We've just been talking about Heathrow. | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
If Heathrow gets the go-ahe`d, then there's going to be Richmond Park. | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
It's a warm up for Richmond, isn't it? | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
It used to be a Lib Dem seat, now, you know, whether that's why | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
But the Lib Dems haven't gone away. We are still here. | :49:19. | :49:25. | |
We are still working hard for the people of this country. | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
You're going to be worried about that. | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
You must be doing work already in Richmond? | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
Who knows if it's going to be Heathrow or Gatwick? | :49:36. | :49:37. | |
You know so little. Anyway... | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
Now, there were 14 candidatds standing in Witney. | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
Why do people from smaller political parties put themselves forw`rd? | :49:44. | :49:52. | |
Our reporter spent some timd in Witney during the campaign | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
The HS2 project is the wrong project. | :49:55. | :50:08. | |
Many people feel their vote doesn't count. | :50:09. | :50:10. | |
These are just a handful of the candidates that stood | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
Usually, elections are dominated by the big parties. | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
The swing between them, the shock losses, | :50:25. | :50:25. | |
But, behind all that, are the smaller | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
parties and the independent candidates who are going out | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
But with our first past the post system, is it all a bit hopdless? | :50:34. | :50:43. | |
I love having outsiders in, it shows Witney people have got | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
they've not got a hope of getting in. | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
I think if they want to stand, if they have a cause, then H don't | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
There's no point because thdy won't ever get elected. | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
Yes, definitely. People should have their sax. | :51:03. | :51:04. | |
It is a democracy. That's what it's for. | :51:05. | :51:06. | |
One such candidate who is using his democratic | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
right is based here, a caravan park just outside | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
Frankie! Welcome to the eccentric party. | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
Lord Toby Jug is now the leader of the eccentric | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
party of Great Britain after he defected from the monster raving | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
He stood in five general elections and over 30 local | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
It's important because, at the end of the day, it's our | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
We are the only country that actually | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
allows that and a lot of fringe candidates stand. | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
It's not a case of winning, it's a case of putting your | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
V eccentric party of Great Britain has unique policies. All swhmming | :51:46. | :51:58. | |
pools will be drained once ` week for nonswimmers. They want taller | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
buildings for higher educathons But he says he has serious reasons for | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
campaigning. We want to makd sure that people have the right to vote. | :52:09. | :52:17. | |
We are not a joke. We are gdtting a protest vote. The other parties are | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
the joke parties. Standing `s a candidate is no joke. Polithcal | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
engagement is on the rise. Lore than 100 parties registered sincd the | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
start of 2015. Democracy coles at a price. You have to put down a ? 00 | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
deposit which you don't get back unless you get 5% of the vote. | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
Doctor Helen Salisbury from the National health action partx feels | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
it is important to get involved I was just really worried that the | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
thing that we value most, the care that people receive, which hs all | :52:55. | :53:02. | |
about what they need, not what they can pay for, this fundament`l | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
principle, was going to get lost. There are ways of sending mdssages. | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
People say you could put a donkey in a blue jacket and it would be | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
elected in that constituencx because it has always been Tory. Th`t | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
doesn't mean it isn't an extremely good way of making your voice heard. | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
For both Lord Toby Jug and Helen Salisbury it is not getting the vote | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
that is the obstacle. Ukip got million votes. That resulted in one | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
MP. It's totally wrong. I actually believe in proportional | :53:42. | :53:43. | |
representation. It is the w`y forward. It's hard for small parties | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
because of the system that we have. If we had proportional | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
representation it would be dasier but, interestingly, the last general | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
election was the first time we stood candidates and we did let bdtter | :53:59. | :54:09. | |
than any other party on our first outing than any other party. We are | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
actually not doing badly. It may not be a win but it is not going to stop | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
these candidates to stop thdir struggle from getting their message | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
out. Some serious issues thdre. Proportional representation. Also, | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
the NHS party. You don't nedd an NHS party if Labour was doing its job | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
properly. It is terribly good that we have a healthy democracy with | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
these parties standing. Look at what is happening in America with its | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
democracy. By-elections are a snapshot and give smaller p`rties an | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
opportunity to make themselves heard. It's an important thhng. In | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
Batley and spend, we saw thd far right, the hard right, exposed and | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
are seen for what they really are. There is an important site to | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
by-elections, our democracy where some of these smaller partids which | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
are quite objectionable are exposed to scrutiny in a way that they get | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
challenged. I thought it was disgraceful that they jeered and | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
heckled Tracy Bray been as she won the seat. Somehow, the publhc sees a | :55:26. | :55:34. | |
stitch up sometimes between major parties and the voting systdm seems | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
to get that going with safe seats. I think if you are going to stand as | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
somebody with a proper manifesto on a particular issue, it is a cheap | :55:46. | :55:53. | |
way of getting decent publicity 500 quid, you are getting a lot of bang | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
for your buck if you get coverage in the local papers. The guys from the | :55:59. | :56:12. | |
Eccentric party, and so on, why shouldn't they? They would do worse | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
under proportional representation because if the vote mattered, people | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
wouldn't vote for them. The NHS action party, we should takd them | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
seriously, shouldn't we? Thdy are from the medical profession. If they | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
are campaigning on points that people can understand, I don't think | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
they will continue to do better because you need policies on more | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
than just one issue but the NHS is incredibly important to most people | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
and both major parties take it seriously but it is something that | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
puts the public on their mettle They have a fair point to m`ke. They | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
are passionate about their politics and the NHS. I can see no good | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
reason to say it isn't a good thing. It's a healthy sign of our | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
democracy. With Ukip, you t`ke away the main point they are there for. | :57:12. | :57:21. | |
Have they disappeared? They haven't been contesting by-elections. They | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
are losing councillors. Thehr ideas have been absorbed by the other | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
parties? Would you agree? To some extent. It depends what you think | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
people voted Ukip around thd country. Some people voted on the | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
European issue. Some people are voting because they feel | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
dispossessed. They allocate themselves in various ways. Theresa | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
May has captured a lot of pdople who feel left out. It's also wh`t she | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
really cares about. A lot of Tories returning home. Now our regtlar | :57:57. | :58:11. | |
round-up in 60 seconds. Womdn council workers have been m`rching | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
for equal pay in breading. They say the council has been slower | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
compensation after overpaying traditional male jobs. One person | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
has died, two others are seriously ill still waiting. Teachers present | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
a petition at Downing Street of their pupils complaints. Historian | :58:34. | :58:43. | |
Dan Snow is campaigning to keep rare Roman coins near Liddington where | :58:44. | :58:51. | |
the Forge was found. They don't need to be in the British Museum. A ban | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
on mushroom foraging, is it against ancient custom? A charity offering | :58:59. | :59:10. | |
rooms for bed blocking is pdrplexed it hasn't received requests from | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
local health authorities. It says it has rooms ready to go. Thosd | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
facilities not been used but the NHS is under huge pressure. What do we | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
need? Just more money or crdative solutions? Money is a part of it. | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
You cannot deny that the cuts are serious. Because there is so much | :59:30. | :59:39. | |
more demand. We mustn't forget the overlap with social services. There | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
are issues across the whole spectrum of health care and care that are | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
really pressing. Some of thd most vulnerable people in the colmunity | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
are being affected. Bed blocking is a serious financial issue | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
particularly when local councils can't provide care in the community | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
to support people coming out of hospital with good, solid c`re | :00:04. | :00:11. | |
packages. Theresa May has s`id that you are the party of the NHS. Simon | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
Stephens said that if he can have the plan to put a restructuring | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
package together, he would but he needed funding. We have said, yes. | :00:27. | :00:36. | |
He says it is not enough. Hd came to the government, he gave as the plan. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
He said he could do it. It's now down to local NHS trusts to put | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
their heads together and work out how they can deliver servicds more | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
efficiently. But Paul makes a good point, the interaction with social | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
services is key. We have to see local services do more together It | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
has to come together. There has to be more done in that field hf we are | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
going to solve this terribld problem. Both of you, thank you for | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
coming in and joining us today. That's all from ours. Now it's back | :01:13. | :01:13. | |
to Andrew. Goodbye. So, Brexit, airports, | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
Calais and the chances With what Rory Stewart was saying | :01:19. | :01:49. | |
there, it is clear that Islamic State is losing territory in Iraq | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
now, and could come under pressure in Syria as well. It used to control | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
a whole swathe of the coast of Libya, and is now down to a small | :02:00. | :02:08. | |
area of Sirte in Libya. But curiously, it could make them more | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
dangerous here if they are being driven out of the Maghreb and the | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
Levant, they could be more dangerous here. Discuss. That was a very | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
interesting admission from a government minister, of all people, | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
and a well-informed one. Chasing Isis around the Middle East is | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda around Afghanistan and Pakistan You | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
smash them somewhere, and they pop up somewhere else. He is right to | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
warn that these guys will go somewhere. And it may well be, in | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
Sirte, for example, across the magic oration -- across the Mediterranean | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
into Italy. A lot of the foreign fighters in Mosul have already gone, | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
we heard, which raises the question, to where? I think it is quite right | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
for government ministers to warn that it might have repercussions | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
here. We have been involved in this, with full public consent, as far as | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
we can tell. If it doesn't happen, if there are horrors and outrages | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
here and in the rest of Europe, that's fine. If it does happen, at | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
least the government is prepared. We knew surprised about how categorical | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
Nia Griffith was? She was categorical about support for the | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
Allied action in Iraq, and categorical about Russia. So much so | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
that perhaps written should take tougher sanctions on its own, even | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
if it can't get the Europeans to fall in line. I found that | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
interesting. I was surprised by that. Tom may be right that Rory | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
said more than perhaps he was intending, but I thought that some | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
of what she said sounded politically imprudent in the current context of | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
the Labour Party. I'm not sure she cleared those lines with the Labour | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy are in the same place about it. I'm | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
not sure there is that much leadership. People at the moment get | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
out there and say what they think it's right for the party. She | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
sounded dead right to me. Whether it is ill-advised or not, people should | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
answer... I want to move on, because Brexit never goes away. This week we | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is going to be | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
the chair of the select committee in the Commons which will monitor the | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Department for Brexit. All sorts of people will be coming to give | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
testimony and so one. Let's hear what he told Andrew Marr. | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
I think it will be very important for the government to indicate that | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
if it is not possible within the two years provided for by Article 5 | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
to negotiate both our withdrawal agreement and a new trading | :05:12. | :05:13. | |
relationship, market access, including for services, | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
80% of our economy, million jobs, in financial services, | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
that it should tell the House of Commons that it will seek | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
a transitional arrangement with the European Union. | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
If the deal is not done at the end of the two-year Article 50 process, | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
would the government go for an interim agreement, or would it fall | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
back on WTO, World Trade Organisation, Rawls? My | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
understanding is the article 15 negotiation doesn't specifically | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
include what Britain's future trading relationship with the EU | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
would be. It is perfectly possible that Article 50 could be triggered, | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
and after two years we don't have a trade deal, but the trade deal | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
negotiations are ongoing when we are outside the EU. But the trade deal | :06:04. | :06:14. | |
negotiations are the most important thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
it, what is it about? Absolutely essential. The trade deal with | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
Canada has taken nine years, and now it looks like it is fading, because | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
of the Walloons. Just one small part of the country. If you cannot do a | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
free-trade deal with Canada, a progressive, social Democratic | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
Canada, who can the EU do a trade deal with? You would think it would | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
be easy with us, because we have all of the level playing field | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
agreements in place. You would hope it would be easier, but it may not | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
be, because in the end, it will hinge on the single market and if we | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
are in or out. If we are in, can we have a small break on immigration? | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
It looks like not. What is interesting about the opinion polls | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
is, in the last two opinion polls there was a significant change in | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
public opinion, where people are now saying they think that actually | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
trade, the economy, the single market is more important than | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
immigration. If it is really true, as the observer is reporting today, | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
that banks are on the move, and in a year's time there could be a | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
significant collapse in the income we get from finance, the income that | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
the Treasury gets, then public opinion might change. They may say, | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
we don't want more immigration, but this isn't a price worth paying | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
Everything tends to be seen through the Brexit lens at the moment. | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
Things are not always as they seem. The Canadian- EU free trade | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
agreement was about increasing free trade between the EU and Canada and | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one | :08:36. | :08:44. | |
gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27, | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go It | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this. | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
There he is. Where is the hand? That is the | :12:35. | :12:46. | |
worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto, | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these | :13:32. | :14:04. | |
amazing lives, You're like a... | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
Different person? Delve deeper. | :14:08. | :14:17. | |
Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me | :14:18. | :14:27. | |
that I can actually remember. They have something on me | :14:28. | :14:28. | |
that I can actually remember. The final chapter between | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Gibson and Spector. | :14:33. | :14:37. |