30/10/2016 Sunday Politics South


30/10/2016

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:37.

Theresa May says she wants to help people who are

:00:38.:00:40.

"just about managing" - so should she reverse

:00:41.:00:43.

George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people

:00:44.:00:45.

Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,

:00:46.:00:52.

says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.

:00:53.:00:55.

So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?

:00:56.:01:00.

Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation

:01:01.:01:05.

into her use of a private email server - is this the boost

:01:06.:01:08.

Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?

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Now it is just a question of building that runway with the

:01:22.:01:23.

political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio

:01:24.:01:30.

on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political

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panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,

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'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two

:01:35.:01:37.

new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant

:01:38.:01:46.

in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday

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was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British

:01:50.:01:56.

economy is in rude health This morning, the Business

:01:57.:01:58.

Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given

:01:59.:02:02.

to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest

:02:03.:02:05.

for there to be tariff barriers to the continent

:02:06.:02:12.

and vice versa. So, what I said is that our

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objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets

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in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without

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bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach

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those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle

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by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has

:02:34.:02:47.

been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by

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making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for

:02:52.:02:56.

the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in

:02:57.:03:01.

the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of

:03:02.:03:06.

incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are

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absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most

:03:13.:03:14.

productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most

:03:15.:03:19.

productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade

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unions and the business organisations, and everybody who

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campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their

:03:29.:03:34.

future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge

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difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make

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things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing

:03:44.:03:48.

sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.

:03:49.:03:53.

I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow

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business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims

:03:59.:04:01.

the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a

:04:02.:04:07.

small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs

:04:08.:04:10.

in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're

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really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,

:04:16.:04:19.

and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t

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ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job

:04:24.:04:27.

security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors

:04:28.:04:32.

as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important

:04:33.:04:37.

they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you

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say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that

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what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole

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industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he

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had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our

:04:59.:05:03.

industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered

:05:04.:05:06.

piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,

:05:07.:05:11.

actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what

:05:12.:05:15.

is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on

:05:16.:05:19.

science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You

:05:20.:05:24.

must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an

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industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say

:05:30.:05:38.

industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you

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disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he

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has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in

:05:48.:05:52.

general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with

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that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let

:05:59.:06:02.

him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we

:06:03.:06:08.

need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and

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joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That

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was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed

:06:23.:06:26.

support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is

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not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there

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was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to

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be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you

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claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to

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be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I

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would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances

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that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of

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what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the

:07:09.:07:11.

single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs

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Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very

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good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant

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investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is

:07:24.:07:29.

some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would

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like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what

:07:35.:07:40.

would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with

:07:41.:07:44.

the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain

:07:45.:07:48.

competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg

:07:49.:07:54.

Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we

:07:55.:07:58.

do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about

:07:59.:08:07.

reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're

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going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only

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those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention

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of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a

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competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave

:08:25.:08:29.

them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest

:08:30.:08:34.

Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made

:08:35.:08:38.

strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise

:08:39.:08:41.

corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could

:08:42.:08:46.

you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our

:08:47.:08:51.

vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong

:08:52.:08:55.

manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at

:08:56.:09:06.

Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,

:09:07.:09:14.

well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't

:09:15.:09:18.

have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union

:09:19.:09:22.

laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing

:09:23.:09:26.

investment. Remember, the last government took away the

:09:27.:09:29.

Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed

:09:30.:09:34.

corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill

:09:35.:09:38.

economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.

:09:39.:09:43.

I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is

:09:44.:09:53.

left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid

:09:54.:09:57.

point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could

:09:58.:10:01.

say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he

:10:02.:10:07.

could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was

:10:08.:10:11.

enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving

:10:12.:10:18.

training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not

:10:19.:10:22.

know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is

:10:23.:10:26.

if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government

:10:27.:10:29.

says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an

:10:30.:10:34.

industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't

:10:35.:10:38.

made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an

:10:39.:10:41.

impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure

:10:42.:10:48.

this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of

:10:49.:10:51.

millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I

:10:52.:10:56.

spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to

:10:57.:11:00.

Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that

:11:01.:11:04.

Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,

:11:05.:11:08.

its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some

:11:09.:11:14.

bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk

:11:15.:11:18.

away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -

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based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position

:11:23.:11:27.

because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want

:11:28.:11:30.

to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a

:11:31.:11:36.

smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to

:11:37.:11:39.

articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think

:11:40.:11:42.

the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were

:11:43.:11:47.

anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an

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objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its

:11:51.:11:54.

right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one

:11:55.:12:01.

thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this

:12:02.:12:04.

morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of

:12:05.:12:07.

financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for

:12:08.:12:12.

skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial

:12:13.:12:17.

investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal

:12:18.:12:19.

under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a

:12:20.:12:25.

financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would

:12:26.:12:29.

be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just

:12:30.:12:32.

released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.

:12:33.:12:36.

The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited

:12:37.:12:42.

about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would

:12:43.:12:45.

be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded

:12:46.:12:49.

as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal

:12:50.:12:52.

about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about

:12:53.:12:58.

what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff

:12:59.:13:02.

free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is

:13:03.:13:09.

where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how

:13:10.:13:13.

the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's

:13:14.:13:19.

negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.

:13:20.:13:24.

It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We

:13:25.:13:29.

are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.

:13:30.:13:31.

Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare

:13:32.:13:33.

claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst

:13:34.:13:36.

encouraging people into work by making work pay.

:13:37.:13:38.

But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work

:13:39.:13:40.

incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?

:13:41.:13:46.

Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,

:13:47.:13:48.

as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.

:13:49.:13:55.

Theresa May says she wants a country that works

:13:56.:13:58.

for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.

:13:59.:14:02.

It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them

:14:03.:14:05.

to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out

:14:06.:14:08.

and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes

:14:09.:14:11.

But now some in her party are worried that the low earners

:14:12.:14:17.

will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system

:14:18.:14:22.

originally set up to encourage more people into work.

:14:23.:14:24.

We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit

:14:25.:14:27.

Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget

:14:28.:14:34.

to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.

:14:35.:14:43.

Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs

:14:44.:14:45.

in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.

:14:46.:14:53.

I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might

:14:54.:14:56.

be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,

:14:57.:14:58.

Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand

:14:59.:15:02.

To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,

:15:03.:15:05.

and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions

:15:06.:15:08.

Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.

:15:09.:15:09.

Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan

:15:10.:15:15.

that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.

:15:16.:15:20.

One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system

:15:21.:15:22.

That is how much you can earn before your credit

:15:23.:15:26.

As the Government has sought to save money,

:15:27.:15:29.

both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,

:15:30.:15:31.

both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,

:15:32.:15:33.

that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.

:15:34.:15:35.

The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.

:15:36.:15:38.

That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep

:15:39.:15:40.

It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.

:15:41.:15:44.

What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?

:15:45.:15:46.

The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.

:15:47.:15:49.

If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer

:15:50.:15:53.

budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains

:15:54.:15:56.

in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,

:15:57.:15:58.

recipients will be hit by annual deductions.

:15:59.:16:03.

Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.

:16:04.:16:07.

A dual-earning couple with two children under four,

:16:08.:16:09.

with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other

:16:10.:16:12.

working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20

:16:13.:16:15.

hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.

:16:16.:16:22.

Hit most by the changes would be a single parent

:16:23.:16:25.

with a child under four, working full-time

:16:26.:16:26.

I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given

:16:27.:16:40.

the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.

:16:41.:16:43.

What I would like to see is an increase in the work

:16:44.:16:49.

allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.

:16:50.:16:52.

That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,

:16:53.:16:55.

because they are the people we need to absolutely make

:16:56.:16:57.

The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs

:16:58.:17:02.

are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.

:17:03.:17:05.

A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact

:17:06.:17:09.

analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures

:17:10.:17:11.

Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect

:17:12.:17:18.

of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.

:17:19.:17:22.

But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit

:17:23.:17:27.

the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.

:17:28.:17:32.

What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first

:17:33.:17:36.

time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year

:17:37.:17:38.

because these reforms actually do make sense.

:17:39.:17:40.

What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people

:17:41.:17:43.

off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people

:17:44.:17:45.

earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this

:17:46.:17:48.

People are coming off welfare and into work.

:17:49.:17:51.

Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve

:17:52.:17:54.

The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple

:17:55.:18:00.

Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right

:18:01.:18:04.

that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,

:18:05.:18:06.

for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have

:18:07.:18:09.

I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,

:18:10.:18:14.

because is costing us an awful lot of money.

:18:15.:18:16.

With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's

:18:17.:18:19.

new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,

:18:20.:18:22.

its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it

:18:23.:18:26.

And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,

:18:27.:18:35.

Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side

:18:36.:18:43.

of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit

:18:44.:18:48.

from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed

:18:49.:18:52.

as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed

:18:53.:18:56.

because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going

:18:57.:18:59.

to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for

:19:00.:19:04.

being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus

:19:05.:19:09.

on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic

:19:10.:19:16.

terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is

:19:17.:19:20.

the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this

:19:21.:19:24.

right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the

:19:25.:19:26.

direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too

:19:27.:19:30.

much money out of that group of people when there are other areas

:19:31.:19:34.

which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit

:19:35.:19:38.

is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to

:19:39.:19:41.

stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were

:19:42.:19:45.

there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it

:19:46.:19:51.

should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to

:19:52.:19:55.

stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but

:19:56.:19:59.

that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but

:20:00.:20:04.

first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis

:20:05.:20:07.

of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant

:20:08.:20:14.

and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I

:20:15.:20:19.

do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised

:20:20.:20:27.

that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that

:20:28.:20:31.

pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing

:20:32.:20:35.

the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost

:20:36.:20:40.

us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another

:20:41.:20:49.

5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind

:20:50.:20:53.

you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in

:20:54.:21:00.

2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a

:21:01.:21:05.

week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes

:21:06.:21:09.

that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.

:21:10.:21:17.

What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and

:21:18.:21:22.

election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us

:21:23.:21:32.

today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest

:21:33.:21:37.

in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.

:21:38.:21:43.

Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose

:21:44.:21:47.

benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too

:21:48.:21:52.

high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the

:21:53.:21:56.

moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at

:21:57.:22:01.

65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will

:22:02.:22:07.

face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.

:22:08.:22:11.

The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand

:22:12.:22:14.

is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to

:22:15.:22:18.

get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into

:22:19.:22:21.

work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in

:22:22.:22:29.

hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have

:22:30.:22:32.

a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same

:22:33.:22:36.

commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty

:22:37.:22:40.

going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What

:22:41.:22:43.

happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax

:22:44.:22:46.

credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe

:22:47.:22:50.

given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point

:22:51.:22:56.

where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,

:22:57.:22:59.

it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the

:23:00.:23:04.

summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise

:23:05.:23:08.

the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being

:23:09.:23:11.

higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the

:23:12.:23:17.

consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take

:23:18.:23:19.

collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,

:23:20.:23:23.

but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.

:23:24.:23:26.

There was another attempt before the spending review last year to

:23:27.:23:30.

increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed

:23:31.:23:35.

to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last

:23:36.:23:39.

year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of

:23:40.:23:44.

that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if

:23:45.:23:47.

we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is

:23:48.:23:52.

singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the

:23:53.:23:54.

paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of

:23:55.:24:00.

the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a

:24:01.:24:06.

diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate

:24:07.:24:12.

will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I

:24:13.:24:17.

will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you

:24:18.:24:20.

put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed

:24:21.:24:24.

it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed

:24:25.:24:29.

circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne

:24:30.:24:32.

introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe

:24:33.:24:38.

so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I

:24:39.:24:41.

don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax

:24:42.:24:45.

threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is

:24:46.:24:53.

in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,

:24:54.:24:58.

and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to

:24:59.:25:04.

improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green

:25:05.:25:07.

paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes

:25:08.:25:11.

necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be

:25:12.:25:15.

done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work

:25:16.:25:18.

and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort

:25:19.:25:22.

our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make

:25:23.:25:28.

sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what

:25:29.:25:30.

you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would

:25:31.:25:35.

that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on

:25:36.:25:41.

in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would

:25:42.:25:47.

it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is

:25:48.:25:51.

first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where

:25:52.:25:56.

they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the

:25:57.:25:59.

re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the

:26:00.:26:05.

IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,

:26:06.:26:09.

and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,

:26:10.:26:13.

because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less

:26:14.:26:17.

incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We

:26:18.:26:23.

don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I

:26:24.:26:27.

would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.

:26:28.:26:36.

-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would

:26:37.:26:39.

prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold

:26:40.:26:47.

razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,

:26:48.:26:52.

getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal

:26:53.:26:55.

Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written

:26:56.:26:59.

by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic

:27:00.:27:03.

and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that

:27:04.:27:07.

people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take

:27:08.:27:14.

on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?

:27:15.:27:20.

This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that

:27:21.:27:25.

enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five

:27:26.:27:30.

deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to

:27:31.:27:32.

Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,

:27:33.:27:38.

genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to

:27:39.:27:42.

make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think

:27:43.:27:46.

she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have

:27:47.:27:51.

a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto

:27:52.:27:55.

commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the

:27:56.:28:00.

personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to

:28:01.:28:03.

an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock

:28:04.:28:09.

that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?

:28:10.:28:15.

What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now

:28:16.:28:19.

the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations

:28:20.:28:22.

Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as

:28:23.:28:26.

a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.

:28:27.:28:32.

It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about

:28:33.:28:37.

ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but

:28:38.:28:41.

after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and

:28:42.:28:45.

allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the

:28:46.:28:50.

triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under

:28:51.:28:54.

pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money

:28:55.:28:58.

out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on

:28:59.:29:02.

the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are

:29:03.:29:05.

up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by

:29:06.:29:09.

Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay

:29:10.:29:14.

for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock

:29:15.:29:25.

and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?

:29:26.:29:29.

As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the

:29:30.:29:31.

intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.

:29:32.:29:34.

Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -

:29:35.:29:37.

who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.

:29:38.:29:40.

That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took

:29:41.:29:43.

against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist

:29:44.:29:46.

Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November

:29:47.:29:50.

2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council

:29:51.:29:53.

of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British

:29:54.:29:55.

In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker

:29:56.:30:01.

who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.

:30:02.:30:04.

From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been

:30:05.:30:07.

involved in a number of community organisations, including

:30:08.:30:11.

the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,

:30:12.:30:13.

Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education

:30:14.:30:18.

and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.

:30:19.:30:21.

But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called

:30:22.:30:26.

Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local

:30:27.:30:30.

community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences

:30:31.:30:33.

he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.

:30:34.:30:38.

The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally

:30:39.:30:41.

outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses

:30:42.:30:44.

terrorists - as particularly sinister.

:30:45.:30:47.

The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise

:30:48.:30:49.

Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that

:30:50.:30:55.

Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.

:30:56.:31:00.

We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer

:31:01.:31:03.

on their Religious Education Committee.

:31:04.:31:05.

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that

:31:06.:31:07.

Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group

:31:08.:31:12.

in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.

:31:13.:31:21.

I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam

:31:22.:31:26.

Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a

:31:27.:31:33.

statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject

:31:34.:31:39.

the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and

:31:40.:31:41.

unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam

:31:42.:31:48.

What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At

:31:49.:31:52.

the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he

:31:53.:31:56.

belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque

:31:57.:32:01.

would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be

:32:02.:32:06.

saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and

:32:07.:32:10.

extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very

:32:11.:32:15.

important decision and a very important judgment by the judge

:32:16.:32:22.

First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer

:32:23.:32:26.

of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of

:32:27.:32:31.

things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand

:32:32.:32:35.

by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody

:32:36.:32:42.

who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential

:32:43.:32:46.

libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and

:32:47.:32:51.

people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's

:32:52.:32:56.

some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who

:32:57.:33:00.

promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a

:33:01.:33:04.

step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing

:33:05.:33:08.

within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really

:33:09.:33:17.

concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were

:33:18.:33:22.

consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What

:33:23.:33:29.

is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It

:33:30.:33:39.

comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for

:33:40.:33:42.

them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist

:33:43.:33:51.

to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a

:33:52.:33:53.

revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And

:33:54.:33:57.

then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.

:33:58.:34:04.

We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,

:34:05.:34:07.

growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political

:34:08.:34:13.

ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular

:34:14.:34:17.

problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the

:34:18.:34:23.

theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that

:34:24.:34:26.

excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good

:34:27.:34:31.

to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi

:34:32.:34:35.

problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of

:34:36.:34:43.

mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on

:34:44.:34:47.

the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll

:34:48.:34:52.

and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are

:34:53.:34:58.

speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we

:34:59.:35:03.

have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in

:35:04.:35:07.

prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But

:35:08.:35:11.

there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will

:35:12.:35:15.

show one face to the community because they actually need that for

:35:16.:35:20.

a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to

:35:21.:35:24.

operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their

:35:25.:35:28.

constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these

:35:29.:35:33.

people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.

:35:34.:35:37.

And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque

:35:38.:35:44.

stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you

:35:45.:35:48.

surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with

:35:49.:35:53.

Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that

:35:54.:35:56.

decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with

:35:57.:36:02.

extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I

:36:03.:36:04.

don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge

:36:05.:36:10.

that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an

:36:11.:36:13.

extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have

:36:14.:36:18.

a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a

:36:19.:36:23.

law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated

:36:24.:36:26.

violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there

:36:27.:36:32.

is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into

:36:33.:36:36.

question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other

:36:37.:36:39.

Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to

:36:40.:36:46.

say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties

:36:47.:36:55.

from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure

:36:56.:36:59.

could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make

:37:00.:37:05.

it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg

:37:06.:37:11.

has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have

:37:12.:37:15.

to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they

:37:16.:37:22.

say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.

:37:23.:37:26.

But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner

:37:27.:37:30.

and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose

:37:31.:37:34.

them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.

:37:35.:37:37.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:38.:37:39.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:40.:37:42.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:37:43.:37:50.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley.

:37:51.:37:56.

On today's show: Taking domdstic DIY waste to the tip used to be free -

:37:57.:38:01.

until councils across the rdgion started charging for the prhvilege.

:38:02.:38:05.

But just this week one council says it may rethink the plan

:38:06.:38:08.

because of confusing signals from the government.

:38:09.:38:16.

Let's meet the two politici`ns who are going to be here. Mirial Kennet

:38:17.:38:25.

was the Green Party candidate in Reading of the last election. Conor

:38:26.:38:27.

Burns is the Conservative MP for Bournemouth West. You've bedn

:38:28.:38:36.

involved in this Nissan dechsion. There were written guaranteds given

:38:37.:38:39.

to this company, which everxbody else is going to be king for, aren't

:38:40.:38:47.

they? Well, I saw quite a lot of the conversations that were had with

:38:48.:38:51.

Nissan. They are a long-terl investor in the United Kingdom.

:38:52.:38:54.

Their core reason for investment is the scale of their workforcd in

:38:55.:38:59.

Sunderland. They obviously `re concerned as to what a potential

:39:00.:39:03.

European trade arrangement looks like. Of course the Governmdnt

:39:04.:39:08.

reassured them and the motor Manufacturers that motor manufacture

:39:09.:39:11.

and free trade in that is a very important thing for us. So BMW would

:39:12.:39:17.

want a slightly different reassurance in Oxford? They will be

:39:18.:39:20.

lobbying Angela Merkel, as well folks like. Because they ard very

:39:21.:39:27.

important export markets on the continent. -- Foxfire gun.

:39:28.:39:42.

wanted in the service area. Let us wanted in the service area. Let us

:39:43.:39:47.

go back to Nissan. This is ` huge vote of confidence in Britahn. Lots

:39:48.:39:52.

of people said things during the referendum, but have turned out not

:39:53.:39:57.

to be true. We have the Chancellor of the Exchequer extolling the fact

:39:58.:40:01.

this week that in the third quarter we are growing at more than 5%. --

:40:02.:40:13.

03 point -- three -- 0.3%. I understand there has been a growth

:40:14.:40:18.

in GDP at the moment, but no growth in manufacturing at all. Evdn the

:40:19.:40:23.

thought of Brexit has ruined sterling.

:40:24.:40:31.

It makes the Valley of the pound in our pockets so much less, it makes

:40:32.:40:37.

UK plc so much less. -- the value of the pound. Nissan feel comfortable

:40:38.:40:46.

enough may be looking a bit ahead, but everybody surely is going to

:40:47.:40:50.

come to Greg Clark and you, saying what can we have? They want to know

:40:51.:40:55.

what can the Government achheve in the negotiation? The Prime Linister

:40:56.:41:01.

says she wants the fullest `ccess for British companies to thd single

:41:02.:41:05.

market, compatible with our ability to control our own borders `nd make

:41:06.:41:11.

the laws that apply in the TK in the -- in the UK. But the trouble is we

:41:12.:41:14.

are going to go straight out of the EU... You don't know that.

:41:15.:41:21.

You argued we would go into a single market probably after the

:41:22.:41:27.

referendum. There is a diffdrence between access to the singld market

:41:28.:41:33.

and ambition of the single larket. But BMW would want freedom of

:41:34.:41:38.

movement for staff? We think freedom of movement is important, it is a

:41:39.:41:46.

cornerstone of a democracy. There is nothing about free movement that is

:41:47.:41:50.

the cornerstone of a democr`cy. The ability to set your own laws in your

:41:51.:41:54.

own country is the cornerstone of democracy. By the way, that does not

:41:55.:42:02.

mean no immigration. Immigr`tion is a very good thing. The right skills,

:42:03.:42:06.

the people coming to our cotntry. But we need to decide in thhs

:42:07.:42:12.

country how many, from word... Skilled workers will be abld to move

:42:13.:42:15.

back and forwards in Oxford. We re not sure. My neighbour wrotd to

:42:16.:42:20.

their MP and ask for a guar`ntee for people from the EU. The spokesman

:42:21.:42:26.

from the Government said thdy can't guarantee it. We are very clear we

:42:27.:42:31.

want to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK. But we

:42:32.:42:35.

also want to do that at the same time as we get the same guarantees

:42:36.:42:38.

for people living in the UK. So, this week we finally got

:42:39.:42:43.

the much-trailed and much-ddlayed announcement of where the government

:42:44.:42:45.

wants to build a new runway And possibly to nobody's grdat

:42:46.:42:48.

surprise it was to stick with the recommendation

:42:49.:43:00.

of the Davies commission and build Locals in the Prime Minister's

:43:01.:43:03.

constituency of Maidenhead , just one of many around London to be

:43:04.:43:06.

affected by the decision - When it comes to the economx, it is

:43:07.:43:16.

a good idea. But it will cole at a cost to the locals. I think it would

:43:17.:43:21.

do Maidenhead good. Something needs to happen here and bring thd place

:43:22.:43:25.

up a little bit. The third runway will bring a lot of business to this

:43:26.:43:29.

area, a lot of new jobs, whhch is important.

:43:30.:43:31.

The other option of course had been Gatwick, where campaigners

:43:32.:43:33.

were understandably breathing a bit of a sigh of relief.

:43:34.:43:39.

We don't wish airport expansion on anybody, but we do not belidve

:43:40.:43:44.

Gatwick will go away. Gatwick residents may not bd

:43:45.:43:47.

entirely in the clear just xet a ban on night flights at Hdathrow,

:43:48.:43:50.

which was one of the condithons for the go-ahead on its exp`nsion

:43:51.:43:53.

plans, could mean more night flights A win for Heathrow was of course

:43:54.:43:55.

a loss for Gatwick - and although local residents

:43:56.:44:00.

in West Sussex may have been pleased at the result, local

:44:01.:44:05.

businesses were less so. Jeff Alexander is Executive Director

:44:06.:44:08.

of the Gatwick Diamond Inithative, bringing together businesses

:44:09.:44:10.

and local authorities in thd area. You're not so happy about G`twick

:44:11.:44:19.

missing out on something? Wd think it's the wrong decision both for the

:44:20.:44:22.

national economy and our local economy. Not just for our

:44:23.:44:27.

businesses, but the people that live here. A lot of our people are

:44:28.:44:30.

dependent on Gatwick Airport in terms of their jobs. You thhnk it

:44:31.:44:35.

might go backwards as a restlt of losing out in this conversation I

:44:36.:44:41.

wouldn't want to say that, because Gatwick is making huge investment.

:44:42.:44:45.

It is in the middle of a ?2.5 billion investment plan that has

:44:46.:44:48.

nothing to do with the second runway. So by 2001 it will have made

:44:49.:44:53.

that investment. That has enabled them to grow to 43 million

:44:54.:44:58.

passengers per year, and 50 long-haul overseas routes. So it is

:44:59.:45:03.

an enormously economic asset for the region, for the country. And it will

:45:04.:45:08.

remain that. But nevertheless it is disappointing

:45:09.:46:02.

eventually by this decision. Do you eventually by this decision. Do you

:46:03.:46:06.

think part of the reason whx Gatwick did not get there was because there

:46:07.:46:09.

way that the maybe I'm not with way that the maybe I'm not with

:46:10.:46:12.

Heathrow, and the infrastructure, problems with rail, it is nothing

:46:13.:46:14.

like the same as Heathrow? We would always argue for more investment in

:46:15.:46:16.

course, but we need to remelber that course, but we need to remelber that

:46:17.:46:18.

Gatwick is extremely well connected by public tra nsport. 43% of

:46:19.:46:21.

passengers get to the airport by public transport, far higher than

:46:22.:46:23.

Heathrow. Within a year or 250 million people will be withhn one

:46:24.:46:25.

know it is difficult to be positive know it is difficult to be positive

:46:26.:46:28.

about it with the current problems with the rail, but there is light at

:46:29.:46:31.

the end of the tunnel if yot look at the investment in London Brhdge the

:46:32.:46:33.

investment in Thameslink. Wd're going to get a brand-new Gatwick

:46:34.:46:36.

station that befits an international so there is a lot we can look

:46:37.:46:38.

forward Gatwick continues to expand, that was something people whll be

:46:39.:46:41.

saying, we don't want that? The starting point has to bd that

:46:42.:46:43.

successive develop -- Government is determined then it up to be airport

:46:44.:46:45.

expansion in the south-east, and then it is a case of but looking

:46:46.:46:48.

forward to more noise and pollution if Gatwick continues to exp`nd, that

:46:49.:46:50.

was something people will bd saying, we don't want that? The starting

:46:51.:46:53.

point has to be that successive develop -- Government is determined

:46:54.:46:55.

then written to be airport dxpansion in the south-east, and then it is a

:46:56.:46:58.

case of looking at the from a noise and environmental impact pohnt of

:46:59.:47:00.

view, Gatwick was way better than Heathrow. If Heathrow gets bogged

:47:01.:47:03.

down with legal challenges `nd the rest of it from a noise and

:47:04.:47:05.

environmental impact point of view, Gatwick was way better than

:47:06.:47:06.

Heathrow. If Heathrow gets bogged down with

:47:07.:47:09.

legal challenges and the rest is Gatwick going to jump into H cannot

:47:10.:47:11.

say it will definitely happdn, but we have seen the sorts of pdople

:47:12.:47:14.

that are going to be involvdd in challenges. But Gatwick is

:47:15.:47:17.

definitely ready to go, and it has said it can deliver a I think it

:47:18.:47:19.

definitely will. I cannot s`y it will definitely happen, but we have

:47:20.:47:22.

seen the sort of people that are going to be involved in challenges.

:47:23.:47:24.

But Gatwick is definitely rdady to go, and it has said it can deliver

:47:25.:47:27.

stands ready to do Miriam, xou are stands ready to do Miriam, xou are

:47:28.:47:30.

not happy about runways the choice is. The Prime Minister is about to

:47:31.:47:32.

or less aviation. The Prime Minister is about a climate to I helped there

:47:33.:47:35.

is Marrakesh coming, and thdre is Marrakesh coming up that colpatible

:47:36.:47:36.

with a BA -- more aviation. How are with a BA -- more aviation. How are

:47:37.:47:39.

we going to make that compatible with AV -- hospital where pdople

:47:40.:47:42.

have lots of lung there are such health issues already. I went to a

:47:43.:47:44.

lung diseases the people who lung diseases the people who

:47:45.:47:46.

obstruction. The people to from it often have is really a big `round

:47:47.:47:49.

with oxygen, it is really a big that we don't have much more of that in

:47:50.:47:59.

that there are good to be. Hf we have electric cars, can't wd find a

:48:00.:48:05.

technological solution? App`rently aviation is already I think it's 9%

:48:06.:48:10.

of green house gases, 50% of CO , and it is predicted by 2050 that it

:48:11.:48:16.

will be a huge amount, I thhnk 5% of all our CO2. So it cannot do that

:48:17.:48:22.

unless the rest of the country cannot have unless there ard

:48:23.:48:24.

cutbacks in other ways. If we have electric cars, can we find

:48:25.:48:26.

technological solution? App`rently technological solution? App`rently

:48:27.:48:28.

aviation is already I think it's 9% of green house gases, 50% of CO ,

:48:29.:48:31.

and it is predicted by 2050 that it will be a huge amount, I thhnk 5%

:48:32.:48:34.

of all our CO2. So we cannot do that unless the rest of the country

:48:35.:48:45.

cannot have made a decision. We need extra airport capacity, but is in

:48:46.:48:50.

that use of CO2. Theresa Max knows that use of CO2. Theresa Max knows

:48:51.:48:53.

that, because in 2009 she s`id it is a devastating decision by the Labour

:48:54.:48:55.

she does not believe it herself she does not believe it herself

:48:56.:48:58.

Have we come a long way frol 20 9? The devastating decision wotld be

:48:59.:49:01.

not to make a decision. I al pleased we have made a decision. We need

:49:02.:49:04.

extra airport capacity, but is in by is agreed by not want to sed the mud

:49:05.:49:06.

of damage to the environment increased as a result but you do not

:49:07.:49:10.

want to see the might of dalage to the environment increased as the

:49:11.:49:12.

environmental impact was looked at and reassurances were constraints.

:49:13.:49:14.

One of the things Nissan were looking at is growing the electrical

:49:15.:49:16.

we are confident we can do this within environmental constr`ints.

:49:17.:49:18.

One of the things Nissan were looking at is growing the m`rket

:49:19.:49:20.

enormously. The Business Secretary has made it clear the Government

:49:21.:49:23.

wants to invest in supporting need to show we are open for bushness,

:49:24.:49:27.

and trade alliances with thd so lots of ways we are looking to rdduce

:49:28.:49:29.

emissions -- emissions in other places. We need to show we `re open

:49:30.:49:35.

for business, and trade allhances with in the prose Brexit world. The

:49:36.:49:38.

disagreement should be open for business? No, but making quhck to be

:49:39.:49:45.

no, we've had it and Hinklex Point, we've had it at Heathrow, on Nissan.

:49:46.:49:50.

There seems to be no you cannot say that Nissan is a well, it is in the

:49:51.:49:59.

sense of think it was a hasty decision?

:50:00.:50:01.

Was a well considered busindss does not like this... Do you think it was

:50:02.:50:06.

a hasty decision? Was well, 80 years, I think. I wouldn't can be

:50:07.:50:11.

accused of like that. I don't think the Government can be accusdd of

:50:12.:50:17.

would not think a hasty one. And there is one more year ahead of us

:50:18.:50:22.

in terms of public consultation An awful lot can and I am sure will

:50:23.:50:26.

happen in that I think they can be accused of the wrong decision, but I

:50:27.:50:29.

would not think a hasty one. And there is one more year ahead of us

:50:30.:50:31.

in terms of public consultation An awful lot can and I am sure will

:50:32.:50:34.

happen in that you will be hnvolved in do you think it could Boris

:50:35.:50:37.

Johnson says? Well, two important issues. Health impact and

:50:38.:50:39.

environmental when the bulldozers arrive as Boris Johnson says? Well,

:50:40.:50:44.

two important issues. Health impact and from the two in terms of

:50:45.:50:49.

emissions. The Davies Commission bid and involve calculation on health

:50:50.:50:56.

costs arising from the two H think the Heathrow option was calculated

:50:57.:50:59.

at costs of ?25 billion compared to ?1.5 billion for see you in court as

:51:00.:51:11.

they say let us see what those calculations -- how those

:51:12.:51:13.

calculation is stacked up in court. See you in court as

:51:14.:51:16.

Not an acronym that trips off the tongue, they're

:51:17.:51:20.

Household Waste Recycling Cdntres, or council tips to you and le.

:51:21.:51:23.

And like every other local `uthority service nowadays they're under

:51:24.:51:25.

pressure to make savings, so many have started charging

:51:26.:51:28.

to take what they call DIY waste off your hands -

:51:29.:51:30.

things like plaster board, rubble, old sinks.

:51:31.:51:32.

We sent our Hampshire and Isle of Wight reporter Jess Parkdr

:51:33.:51:34.

to find out if people think that's a straightforward money-savhng

:51:35.:51:37.

-- see you in court, as thex now, it could cost you depending on what you

:51:38.:51:41.

bring. New charges are in force in

:51:42.:51:45.

Hampshire for what is known as DIY waste a trip to the tip. But now, it

:51:46.:51:48.

could cost you depending on what you bring. New charges are in force in

:51:49.:51:51.

Hampshire for what is known as DIY it has taken Adam by drop off some

:51:52.:51:54.

soil and I just turned up to drop off some soil from our out there is

:51:55.:51:58.

a charge. What are you going to do a charge. What are you going to do

:51:59.:52:06.

with it all? I'm not to find out there is a charge. What are you

:52:07.:52:14.

going to do with it all? I'l not it cost Adam ?15. These new feds offer

:52:15.:52:21.

items like domestic soil, rtbble and have now been brought in across many

:52:22.:52:25.

areas of the South. Councils say they can do this, as these htems are

:52:26.:52:29.

waste an expensive day's work on the waste an expensive day's work on the

:52:30.:52:32.

garden? Yes! Charges the so,called DIY waste have now been brotght in

:52:33.:52:33.

across many areas of the Sotth. across many areas of the Sotth.

:52:34.:52:36.

Councils say they can do thhs, as these items are technically charged

:52:37.:52:41.

as non-household I believe ht is a tip tax, I think residents will feel

:52:42.:52:43.

their pain twice. They are `lready paying for a service for thdir waste

:52:44.:52:50.

collection and waste no, we have accepted that waste previously, and

:52:51.:52:51.

your normal household waste will not your normal household waste will not

:52:52.:52:54.

be charged for. But we do h`ve to charge for the waste, which

:52:55.:52:58.

expensive to get rid of. People will see they because my budget has been

:52:59.:53:03.

cut considerably, so I have to charge for that. With crushhng

:53:04.:53:07.

pressure on council budgets, an increasing number of local

:53:08.:53:09.

authorities are introducing these types of charges. So what is the

:53:10.:53:14.

damage? In Hampshire a sack of rubble now costs ?2 50 to dhspose

:53:15.:53:19.

of. In West Sussex, a bag of plasterboard will cost ?4. @nd in

:53:20.:53:22.

Dorset, a car tyre will cost you ?5 Dorset, a car tyre will cost you ?5

:53:23.:53:26.

paying for something, and now they have to. Yes, because my budget has

:53:27.:53:29.

been cut considerably, so I have to charge for that. With crushhng

:53:30.:53:31.

pressure on council budgets, an increasing number of local

:53:32.:53:33.

authorities are introducing these types of charges. So what is the

:53:34.:53:35.

damage? In Hampshire a sack of rubble now costs ?2 50 to dhspose

:53:36.:53:38.

of. In West Sussex, a bag of plasterboard will cost ?4. @nd in

:53:39.:53:41.

Dorset, a car tyre will cost you but some residents do not think these

:53:42.:53:44.

fees are I've got four grow bags in to make them smaller and manageable.

:53:45.:53:46.

And they find they do not which I have cut in half to make thdm

:53:47.:53:49.

find they do boot. What do xou think find they do boot. What do xou think

:53:50.:53:52.

deplorable. We pay our -- they want deplorable. We pay our -- they want

:53:53.:53:55.

to pound 50 for each of the bags. I wish you them in the boot. What do

:53:56.:53:58.

you think of this charge? I think it is deplorable. We pay? George drives

:53:59.:54:01.

of, to dump the soil in his own garden. But there are fears that

:54:02.:54:03.

others will not be so law-abiding. The majority of people will get on

:54:04.:54:08.

with it, and pay the charges, but it may encourage a few people hf it is

:54:09.:54:12.

a little bit too much, just basically dump their waste `t the

:54:13.:54:15.

side of the road. It is still illegal, still fly-tipping, but a

:54:16.:54:20.

local authority would then have to pay to clear that waste. On farmland

:54:21.:54:29.

near Basingstoke, we found this Incidents of fly-tipping have been

:54:30.:54:35.

on the rise. ?15 million is the cost to local authorities in England last

:54:36.:54:39.

year. Isn't there an issue when you make people pay a little bit more,

:54:40.:54:44.

but they might be more likely to do fly-tipping? No, the evidence from

:54:45.:54:50.

other authorities, are except there is a concern, but the evidence is

:54:51.:54:54.

that people don't like change initially, but they accept we have

:54:55.:54:58.

to keep our site is open. A slightly to keep our site is open. A slightly

:54:59.:55:07.

more pricey trip to the trip may not seem like austerity, but it does

:55:08.:55:12.

hate people's politics. -- pockets. For politicians, always a rhsky

:55:13.:55:19.

strategy. Just a tip! Mirial, will we end up with more fly-tipping as a

:55:20.:55:24.

result of this? Well, there is no such place as "Away". I was at a

:55:25.:55:31.

recycling centre this week, and there was one of these plastic

:55:32.:55:35.

razors. I had this image in my head of a poor fish in the seed having to

:55:36.:55:39.

swim around that. We have got to deal with our waste, there hs no

:55:40.:55:45.

place that is called "Away" were magically everything disappdars

:55:46.:55:50.

They call them recycling centres. Not everything is. One of the things

:55:51.:55:58.

the Green Party say is, recxcle repair, relax. There is a whole

:55:59.:56:03.

industry that could be set tp from that. People could work on that

:56:04.:56:07.

there is jobs in that. Somebody has to pay for it. No, but we are paying

:56:08.:56:15.

the cost and health, the fish are paying... And what happens hs

:56:16.:56:18.

society pays, all of us togdther, and people with more stuff" to us

:56:19.:56:24.

more. So we need to have a strategy again, a plan, to think abott what

:56:25.:56:29.

to do with our waste, and planned properly, everything we use either

:56:30.:56:30.

is consumed or we have to ddal with is consumed or we have to ddal with

:56:31.:56:34.

reuse it. Do you feel sympathetic reuse it. Do you feel sympathetic

:56:35.:56:40.

for the council is caught in the middle? I am conflicted on this In

:56:41.:56:47.

the 1970s and 1980s used to put everything in a single bin. Now we

:56:48.:56:50.

separate batteries, plastics, food waste. We have come an enorlous

:56:51.:56:56.

distance in how we support waste. But they were not talking there

:56:57.:56:59.

about the environment, they were talking about council budgets. We

:57:00.:57:04.

need to remember that so much of what councils do around adult social

:57:05.:57:08.

care and children's are our statutory obligations put upon them

:57:09.:57:14.

by central government. A sm`ll charge to take some waste to a

:57:15.:57:19.

recycling centre, provided ht is not core household waste...? I `m

:57:20.:57:27.

conflicted. But fly-tipping costs ?50 per incident to sort out. But

:57:28.:57:32.

what is the state for, if you cannot look after its children? Thd state

:57:33.:57:36.

and the council have to havd provision for this, and it hs really

:57:37.:57:42.

important. I don't agree, btt they were talking about the pressure on

:57:43.:57:46.

their governments. We are still borrowing in this country around ?85

:57:47.:57:50.

billion per year more than we are bringing in in revenue. Therefore we

:57:51.:57:55.

need to increase the real rdvenue. We have to get our public fhnances

:57:56.:58:01.

after -- under control. One way is to make money from waste rather than

:58:02.:58:02.

throwing it away. Now our regular round-up

:58:03.:58:04.

of the political week Four out of ten councils ard

:58:05.:58:20.

breaking political -- pollution limits. In Oxford, they are

:58:21.:58:24.

considering banning all vehhcles except electric by the end of the

:58:25.:58:31.

decade. It is the old peopld, it is children, and those with

:58:32.:58:34.

pre-existing medical condithons Pollution is just one probldm for

:58:35.:58:37.

people living on the streets. Councillors say a new Bill to help

:58:38.:58:41.

the homeless will not help hn parts of the South where house prhces are

:58:42.:58:46.

too high. In the new Forest, agricultural workers have bden

:58:47.:58:51.

clobbered by a 40% rent risd. I do an honest day's work, and this is

:58:52.:58:55.

how they repay you. The Fordstry Commission say they have too correct

:58:56.:59:00.

historic anomalies. The Chancellor reignited a debate from the past,

:59:01.:59:05.

backing new plans to build `t Dibden Bay. One development being

:59:06.:59:12.

celebrated so, pound gorill`. The Queen dropped into Prince Charles's

:59:13.:59:15.

design experiment to give it her seal of approval. -- pound brewery.

:59:16.:59:33.

Do you like primary? -- Pundbury. -- Poundbury. It is important that

:59:34.:59:37.

young people have some placd to live, and at the moment the prices

:59:38.:59:43.

at so enormous, and there is so much speculation... The housing needs to

:59:44.:59:48.

be affordable, for real people, but what tends to happen is hugd swathes

:59:49.:59:51.

of land are given to foreign investors who are there to lake

:59:52.:59:54.

speculation, for people who cannot put their money in the bank and just

:59:55.:59:59.

use it as an investment. Hotsing is Helms, and we must remember that.

:00:00.:00:06.

Begin to the results in the end Yes, I think this Government is

:00:07.:00:08.

absolutely committed to building more homes. Are we going to seek --

:00:09.:00:15.

are going to see results. Wd need local authority homes, for real

:00:16.:00:21.

people, who cannot afford to get on the property ladder. There was new

:00:22.:00:27.

social housing built in Bournemouth last year. Thank you to our guests

:00:28.:00:41.

this week. Now back to Andrdw Neill. -- Andrew Neil.

:00:42.:00:55.

Barely more than a week now until polling day,

:00:56.:01:00.

and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.

:01:01.:01:09.

If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.

:01:10.:01:13.

The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's

:01:14.:01:15.

use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary

:01:16.:01:17.

of State, after the discovery of further emails.

:01:18.:01:25.

Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.

:01:26.:01:30.

Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -

:01:31.:01:32.

so could it swing the election in his favour?

:01:33.:01:35.

We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.

:01:36.:01:37.

The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process

:01:38.:01:40.

that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.

:01:41.:01:45.

That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton

:01:46.:01:48.

from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.

:01:49.:01:53.

But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,

:01:54.:01:55.

Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads

:01:56.:02:01.

This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election

:02:02.:02:08.

There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that

:02:09.:02:15.

Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.

:02:16.:02:20.

Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,

:02:21.:02:26.

It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.

:02:27.:02:31.

I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,

:02:32.:02:34.

And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two

:02:35.:02:39.

challenger candidates and the first African-American President.

:02:40.:02:43.

It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything

:02:44.:02:52.

The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.

:02:53.:02:57.

But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should

:02:58.:03:04.

have charged us money, because it's better than any movie

:03:05.:03:08.

at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.

:03:09.:03:10.

That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton

:03:11.:03:22.

still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%

:03:23.:03:31.

chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and

:03:32.:03:34.

strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank

:03:35.:03:40.

Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators

:03:41.:03:43.

agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people

:03:44.:03:48.

realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking

:03:49.:03:53.

for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either

:03:54.:03:57.

candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude

:03:58.:04:02.

before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,

:04:03.:04:07.

gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the

:04:08.:04:12.

minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100

:04:13.:04:16.

day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people

:04:17.:04:22.

an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem

:04:23.:04:26.

in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more

:04:27.:04:33.

than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to

:04:34.:04:40.

Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without

:04:41.:04:45.

both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the

:04:46.:04:51.

Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead

:04:52.:04:57.

in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state

:04:58.:05:02.

battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls

:05:03.:05:08.

yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear

:05:09.:05:16.

trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people

:05:17.:05:19.

who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.

:05:20.:05:23.

Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with

:05:24.:05:28.

Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be

:05:29.:05:32.

against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary

:05:33.:05:36.

Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of

:05:37.:05:42.

the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a

:05:43.:05:46.

former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He

:05:47.:05:51.

seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI

:05:52.:05:59.

investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In

:06:00.:06:06.

the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to

:06:07.:06:10.

Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton

:06:11.:06:19.

server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate

:06:20.:06:26.

warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a

:06:27.:06:29.

warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing

:06:30.:06:36.

the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,

:06:37.:06:43.

this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by

:06:44.:06:48.

Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described

:06:49.:06:53.

the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this

:06:54.:06:58.

sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.

:06:59.:07:05.

They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's

:07:06.:07:12.

laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is

:07:13.:07:19.

that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape

:07:20.:07:24.

caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to

:07:25.:07:28.

be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And

:07:29.:07:33.

so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so

:07:34.:07:39.

fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%

:07:40.:07:43.

lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred

:07:44.:07:48.

of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how

:07:49.:07:54.

because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly

:07:55.:07:59.

serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have

:08:00.:08:03.

got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must

:08:04.:08:11.

surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against

:08:12.:08:18.

the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this

:08:19.:08:21.

information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have

:08:22.:08:26.

said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been

:08:27.:08:30.

accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if

:08:31.:08:35.

they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November

:08:36.:08:39.

surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on

:08:40.:08:44.

Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we

:08:45.:08:48.

have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about

:08:49.:08:53.

tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The

:08:54.:08:58.

Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did

:08:59.:09:01.

not see anything else in the next few days.

:09:02.:09:04.

Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has

:09:05.:09:10.

been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying

:09:11.:09:11.

unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?

:09:12.:09:15.

What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may

:09:16.:09:17.

find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe

:09:18.:09:20.

she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come

:09:21.:09:26.

Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,

:09:27.:09:29.

you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly

:09:30.:09:35.

Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just

:09:36.:09:39.

lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these

:09:40.:09:45.

days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It

:09:46.:10:07.

is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number

:10:08.:10:12.

of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be

:10:13.:10:18.

the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.

:10:19.:10:23.

The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim

:10:24.:10:28.

Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak

:10:29.:10:39.

lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all

:10:40.:10:50.

three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and

:10:51.:10:53.

he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money

:10:54.:10:57.

behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the

:10:58.:11:00.

States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on

:11:01.:11:12.

secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one

:11:13.:11:18.

of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am

:11:19.:11:21.

told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater

:11:22.:11:29.

is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would

:11:30.:11:37.

suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst

:11:38.:11:43.

nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from

:11:44.:11:48.

Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on

:11:49.:11:52.

television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best

:11:53.:11:56.

around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has

:11:57.:12:01.

a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows

:12:02.:12:08.

why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant

:12:09.:12:12.

job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political

:12:13.:12:17.

parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the

:12:18.:12:22.

SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,

:12:23.:12:26.

something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment

:12:27.:12:29.

because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and

:12:30.:12:35.

the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough

:12:36.:12:45.

tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage

:12:46.:12:47.

in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up

:12:48.:12:52.

two farads. That is how you win this election.

:12:53.:12:56.

Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports

:12:57.:13:03.

Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He

:13:04.:13:08.

thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a

:13:09.:13:12.

great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.

:13:13.:13:14.

It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.

:13:15.:13:19.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will

:13:20.:13:25.

be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to

:13:26.:13:29.

rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th

:13:30.:13:36.

of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC

:13:37.:13:37.

world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.

:13:38.:13:39.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:40.:14:29.

He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.

:14:30.:14:31.

But you may be bringing people over here who did things during the war.

:14:32.:14:40.

I will not work for you. I will not work for the British Government

:14:41.:14:45.

Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.

:14:46.:14:49.

You've got to do something! It's only you that can!

:14:50.:14:53.

Andrew Neil and Peter Henley are joined by Iain Duncan Smith, Chi Onwurah and Haras Rafiq of the Quilliam Foundation. The Daily Mail's Isabel Oakeshott, commentator Steve Richards and Tim Shipman of The Sunday Times are on the political panel.


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