15/01/2017 Sunday Politics South


15/01/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

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Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

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As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

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of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

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Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

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In the South... well, joins us live.

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Yet more rail misery for southern passengers,

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But is it really about a clash between the government

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

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So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

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basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

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British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

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ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

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upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

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position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

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negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

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deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

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Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

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of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

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travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

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ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

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what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

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Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

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membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

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amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

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I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

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people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

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individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

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Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

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white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

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that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

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of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

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aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

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that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

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in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

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answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

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deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

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right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

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of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

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only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

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for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

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that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

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migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

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that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

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is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

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customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

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don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

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definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

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is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

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somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

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hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

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personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

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We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

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possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

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David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

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Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

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are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

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arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

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encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

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deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

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service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

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this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

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you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

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years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

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to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

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would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

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What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

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of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

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machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

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pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

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you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

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Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

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European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

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of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

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these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

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intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

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what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

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Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

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markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

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doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

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it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

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could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

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If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

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The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

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while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

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a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

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Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

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It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

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a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

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They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

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It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

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a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

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and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

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which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

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If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

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that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

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To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

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costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

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of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

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from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

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It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

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I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

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you have an incomplete Leveson project.

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I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

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there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

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standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

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"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

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Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

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We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

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for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

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They get huge new protections from libel threats,

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from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

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a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

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Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

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Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

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the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

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doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

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The male cells around 22,000 each day...

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There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

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won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

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are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

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Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

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through the recognition setup that it has.

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Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

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when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

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If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

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we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

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The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

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since the Government launched its consultation

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In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

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And for that reason alone, it could take months before

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a decision on what happens next is taken.

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The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

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One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

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So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

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I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

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What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

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on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

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was failing to work, was not delivering effective

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regulation and the press were behaving in a way

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which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

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then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

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case we are going to have to take further measures,

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The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

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I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

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about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

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to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

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But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

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I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

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Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

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and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

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Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

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that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:42.:17:45.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:46.:17:50.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:51.:17:54.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:55.:17:58.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:17:59.:18:03.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

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hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

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means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:10.:18:37.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:38.:18:39.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:40.:18:41.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:42.:18:44.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:45.:18:47.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:48.:18:50.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:51.:18:54.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:55.:19:00.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

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the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

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because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:10.:19:12.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

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the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:23.:19:27.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:28.:19:33.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:34.:19:38.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:39.:19:47.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

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control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:52.:19:56.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:57.:20:00.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:01.:20:06.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

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because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

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curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

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press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

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Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:27.:20:31.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

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tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

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advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

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Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:51.:20:55.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:56.:20:59.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

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reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:04.:21:08.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:09.:21:10.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:11.:21:15.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:16.:21:20.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:21.:21:26.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:27.:21:32.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:33.:21:41.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:42.:21:57.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

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be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:04.:22:07.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:08.:22:12.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:13.:22:18.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:19.:22:29.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

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Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:38.:22:41.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:42.:22:45.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:46.:22:52.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:53.:22:55.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:56.:23:01.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:02.:23:07.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:08.:23:13.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:14.:23:18.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:19.:23:25.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:26.:23:29.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:30.:23:35.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:36.:23:39.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:40.:23:46.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:47.:23:55.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:56.:24:05.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:06.:24:09.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:10.:24:14.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:15.:24:18.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:19.:24:22.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:23.:24:28.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:29.:24:35.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:36.:24:44.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:45.:24:53.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:54.:24:58.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:24:59.:25:03.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:04.:25:07.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:08.:25:14.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:15.:25:18.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:19.:25:23.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:24.:25:28.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:29.:25:31.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:32.:25:36.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:37.:25:41.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:42.:25:53.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:54.:26:02.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:03.:26:06.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:07.:26:09.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:10.:26:13.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:14.:26:16.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:17.:26:22.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:23.:26:26.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:27.:26:30.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:31.:26:38.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:39.:26:44.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:45.:26:51.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:52.:26:54.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:55.:26:59.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:00.:27:03.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:04.:27:10.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:11.:27:14.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:15.:27:19.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:20.:27:24.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:25.:27:30.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:31.:27:34.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:35.:27:40.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:41.:27:45.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:46.:27:48.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:49.:27:52.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:53.:27:56.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:57.:28:01.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:02.:28:06.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:07.:28:12.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:13.:28:18.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:19.:28:21.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:22.:28:25.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:26.:28:34.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:35.:28:38.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:39.:28:43.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:44.:28:47.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:48.:28:51.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:52.:28:53.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:54.:28:55.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:56.:28:59.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:00.:29:02.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:03.:29:04.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:05.:29:08.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:09.:29:10.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:11.:29:16.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:17.:29:18.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:19.:29:24.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:25.:29:27.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:28.:29:35.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:36.:29:37.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:38.:29:42.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:43.:29:45.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:46.:29:50.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:51.:29:54.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:55.:29:59.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:00.:30:03.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:04.:30:07.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:08.:30:11.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:12.:30:14.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:15.:30:21.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:22.:30:25.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:26.:30:29.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:30.:30:36.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:37.:30:38.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:39.:30:41.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:42.:30:51.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:52.:30:56.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:57.:30:59.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:00.:31:03.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:04.:31:08.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:09.:31:12.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:13.:31:17.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:18.:31:22.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:23.:31:26.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:27.:31:29.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:30.:31:33.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:34.:31:37.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:38.:31:46.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:47.:31:49.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:50.:31:52.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:53.:31:55.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:56.:31:59.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:00.:32:03.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:04.:32:08.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:09.:32:13.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:14.:32:16.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:17.:32:24.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:25.:32:28.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:29.:32:32.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:33.:32:35.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:36.:32:41.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:42.:32:48.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:49.:32:51.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:52.:32:55.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:56.:33:00.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:01.:33:04.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:05.:33:07.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:08.:33:11.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:12.:33:18.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:19.:33:20.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:21.:33:23.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:24.:33:28.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:29.:33:33.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:34.:33:35.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:36.:33:39.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:40.:33:44.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:45.:33:50.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:51.:33:53.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:54.:33:56.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:57.:34:01.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:02.:34:05.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:06.:34:10.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:11.:34:13.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:14.:34:17.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:18.:34:23.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:24.:34:28.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:29.:34:32.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:33.:34:38.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:39.:34:42.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:43.:34:46.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:47.:34:51.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:52.:34:55.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:56.:35:01.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:02.:35:04.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:05.:35:08.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:09.:35:11.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:12.:35:16.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:17.:35:19.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:20.:35:26.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:27.:35:30.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:31.:35:35.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:36.:35:39.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:40.:35:43.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:44.:35:47.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:48.:35:51.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:52.:35:54.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:55.:35:58.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:35:59.:36:01.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:02.:36:06.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:07.:36:13.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:14.:36:15.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:16.:36:19.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:20.:36:22.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:23.:36:25.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:26.:36:29.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:30.:36:34.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:35.:36:38.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:39.:36:41.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:42.:36:47.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:48.:36:51.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:52.:36:55.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:56.:36:58.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:36:59.:37:01.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:02.:37:06.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:07.:37:10.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:11.:37:14.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:15.:37:18.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:19.:37:22.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:23.:37:26.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:27.:37:29.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:30.:37:31.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:32.:37:34.

in Scotland, who leave us now Welcome to Sunday Politics South

:37:35.:37:36.

for the first time in 2017, On today's show: Yet more misery

:37:37.:37:48.

on the trains as the drivers' union Aslef launches three days of strikes

:37:49.:37:53.

on Southern railways. Is it really all about safety,

:37:54.:37:57.

as the unions claim, or a more ideological struggle

:37:58.:38:01.

between government and the unions? First, let's meet the two

:38:02.:38:05.

politicians who'll be with me Anneliese Dodds is the Labour MEP

:38:06.:38:09.

for south-east England. And Chris Chope is the Conservative

:38:10.:38:15.

MP for Christchurch. Theresa May is to make,

:38:16.:38:20.

what's being billed, as the keynote speech on Brexit next

:38:21.:38:24.

Tuesday. What sort of red lines

:38:25.:38:26.

will you be looking for? Firstly, I'm very pleased she's

:38:27.:38:29.

making this speech because we've had so much uncertainty and lack

:38:30.:38:33.

of clarity about what the government actually wants for so long,

:38:34.:38:35.

so thank goodness she is making it. You don't mind, as long

:38:36.:38:38.

as it's clear and obvious Having said that, I think

:38:39.:38:43.

particularly for local businesses I represent in the South East,

:38:44.:38:49.

we really need to have access to the single market and I'm pretty

:38:50.:38:52.

disturbed about some of the mood music that's been floating along

:38:53.:38:55.

saying, actually we don't really want this any more,

:38:56.:38:57.

we're not going to fight for it. We were promised, including

:38:58.:39:00.

people who voted to leave, that we'd still be able to have

:39:01.:39:04.

access to the single market, So now, they've got

:39:05.:39:06.

to deliver on that. That's not in our hands,

:39:07.:39:10.

that's a European think That's not in our hands,

:39:11.:39:13.

that's a European thing But if we're not even asking for it

:39:14.:39:15.

then we are very unlikely to get it. I think in terms of red lines,

:39:16.:39:21.

first we need to get on with this. To leave the European Union

:39:22.:39:26.

and none of this talk about transitional arrangements,

:39:27.:39:30.

let's get it done. I think Theresa is going to make

:39:31.:39:32.

a speech where she's going to say we are leaving,

:39:33.:39:35.

we are going to actually have a really good future outside

:39:36.:39:37.

and I think this week the announcement by the Governor

:39:38.:39:40.

of the Bank of England that actually it's the rest of the European Union

:39:41.:39:43.

who's got more to fear if they don't have open markets

:39:44.:39:46.

with the United Kingdom, No, it really doesn't,

:39:47.:39:48.

unfortunately. I am kind of in the heart

:39:49.:39:53.

of some of this, I suppose. I'm listening to what people

:39:54.:39:56.

are saying in Brussels and of course, they do read British

:39:57.:39:59.

newspapers, a lot of them speak English and they see

:40:00.:40:02.

what Theresa May and others are saying and they see we don't

:40:03.:40:04.

seem to be prioritising having access to those markets,

:40:05.:40:07.

that many people have given that up. But aren't a lot of those Brussels

:40:08.:40:10.

politicians completely out of touch with for example,

:40:11.:40:12.

manufacturing industry And isn't the business community

:40:13.:40:13.

in the European Union actually going to get real

:40:14.:40:18.

with their politicians and say, you've got to have a deal

:40:19.:40:21.

with the United Kingdom that enables us to access the United

:40:22.:40:24.

Kingdom's internal market. With respect, I talk to them

:40:25.:40:28.

as well as manufacturers and service industry people in this region

:40:29.:40:32.

and they are saying, please, please, please can you get the government

:40:33.:40:35.

to start actually shouting out for us and trying to

:40:36.:40:37.

fight for this for us. If they are out of touch

:40:38.:40:40.

with their own manufacturing industry, they are not going to be

:40:41.:40:42.

listening to them either, they will just make

:40:43.:40:45.

a deal which punishes us. That's the danger, but of course it

:40:46.:40:47.

won't punish us as much But it will be too late

:40:48.:40:50.

by the time that happens. If you've got open markets,

:40:51.:40:56.

what's the fallback position? The fallback position is the WTO

:40:57.:40:59.

and that's not a bad deal because we are trading with most

:41:00.:41:02.

countries in the world It's extremely bad for farmers

:41:03.:41:05.

and no, we're not trading with most other countries on WTO

:41:06.:41:16.

terms necessarily, we've got trade deals that have been

:41:17.:41:18.

arranged through the EU. But if you want clarity whatever,

:41:19.:41:22.

that's likely to happen, isn't it? We are just going to get booted

:41:23.:41:25.

out and that's that? Unless our government really start

:41:26.:41:28.

standing up for our country and really start saying

:41:29.:41:30.

to our European partners that their manufacturing

:41:31.:41:32.

industry is dependent on, for example, finance from the city

:41:33.:41:33.

and they are not doing that. If European Union Eurocrats

:41:34.:41:37.

are not listening, With all due respect,

:41:38.:41:39.

I think we should start, stopping and thinking if we just

:41:40.:41:43.

shout as British politicians Why can't Theresa May make

:41:44.:41:45.

some of these arguments and say to Siemens, we need

:41:46.:41:52.

you to understand that Do you think she'll say

:41:53.:41:55.

something that conservatives Do you think she'll say

:41:56.:41:59.

something that Conservatives I'm sure the Conservatives

:42:00.:42:01.

will be very happy with... Well, not with whatever she says,

:42:02.:42:05.

but I think she's very much in tune with the feeling

:42:06.:42:08.

of the Parliamentary party and I think that will be reflected

:42:09.:42:11.

in what she says on Tuesday. Maybe not with the views

:42:12.:42:14.

of the country, but we will see. If you're a commuter on Southern

:42:15.:42:17.

railways it must feel as if the disputes and cancellations

:42:18.:42:20.

and restricted timetables And this week brought yet more

:42:21.:42:22.

of the same with three one-day strikes by the drivers union Aslef

:42:23.:42:26.

being added to the company's Throughout the week South Today

:42:27.:42:29.

has been featuring some of the individual stories

:42:30.:42:32.

of Southern's passengers caught up Here's a flavour

:42:33.:42:34.

of their experiences. That's the proportion of Southern

:42:35.:42:39.

trains being replaced Even so, the first commuter services

:42:40.:42:47.

from Chichester were quiet. Many, it seems, heeding Southern's

:42:48.:42:56.

advised to stay away. Amongst the passengers who had no

:42:57.:42:59.

choice, there was resignation. Well, I've got to get to Horsham

:43:00.:43:01.

everyday, I'm a teacher. But, this is just

:43:02.:43:04.

one of those things. It just means I have

:43:05.:43:09.

to get up a lot earlier, Probably adds another two to three

:43:10.:43:12.

hours onto my daily travelling. It's quite nice to not have to go

:43:13.:43:24.

and do the trains today. Every cloud has a silver lining

:43:25.:43:27.

and for Harriet and Sally, not being able to get to London

:43:28.:43:31.

today, meant a chance to meet socially for once,

:43:32.:43:34.

usually only seen each other as a group of 20 or so regular

:43:35.:43:36.

commuters on the same train. But even in this domestic setting,

:43:37.:43:39.

talk quickly turns to their life crammed onto packed trains

:43:40.:43:42.

which are frequently cancelled. When I moved here, I would walk

:43:43.:43:46.

in the door just after 7pm. The way that I feel

:43:47.:43:52.

we are being treated, if I was cattle, I know I've got

:43:53.:44:07.

essentially my area, 100% Now I don't get 100% of my area,

:44:08.:44:10.

when I'm standing up on a train Alison's job means she can work

:44:11.:44:15.

from home on strike days and she accepts others

:44:16.:44:19.

are in a far worse situation. She says she isn't

:44:20.:44:22.

prounion or management, instead she is on the side

:44:23.:44:24.

of her fellow commuters. I pay almost ?4500 for a season

:44:25.:44:26.

ticket where you don't even get a seat, you get

:44:27.:44:29.

this miserable service. You are surrounded by people,

:44:30.:44:31.

like-minded people who just You are being held to

:44:32.:44:35.

ransom, effectively. Don't forget because this

:44:36.:44:47.

is a government-operated franchise the taxpayer is picking up the tab

:44:48.:44:50.

for the dispute. ?60 million so far,

:44:51.:44:53.

according to the RMT. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

:44:54.:44:55.

told me this week the solution We, you and me, the public, our

:44:56.:45:00.

money has gone into the development Network Rail is publicly owned,

:45:01.:45:08.

we own the carriages and all these things,

:45:09.:45:16.

why can't we run the whole service How many of your MPs would join

:45:17.:45:19.

you on a Southern rail picket line? They know it sends the wrong

:45:20.:45:25.

message to the commuters. The message to the

:45:26.:45:27.

commuters is simply this, we want a rail system that

:45:28.:45:29.

works, we want everyone to understand it is in nobody's

:45:30.:45:32.

interests to have a strike, it's in nobody's interests

:45:33.:45:35.

to have a disruption, but that's what happens

:45:36.:45:37.

when a company doesn't recognise that there are legitimate

:45:38.:45:39.

safety concerns. The Transport Secretary refused

:45:40.:45:42.

to talk to us all this week, though stopped in the street

:45:43.:45:44.

he denied the dispute That's very clear from what

:45:45.:45:47.

the independent regulator has said. So my message to the unions is,

:45:48.:45:56.

get back the table, If your members have got

:45:57.:45:59.

concerns will look at things like transitional arrangements that

:46:00.:46:06.

might help allay those concerns, but it's simply not right,

:46:07.:46:08.

it's simply not fair to be imposing this level of disruption on people

:46:09.:46:11.

around the south-east. What are you as Transport Secretary

:46:12.:46:13.

doing about it though? Don't you have a duty to step

:46:14.:46:16.

on behalf of the public? The government is engaged day in,

:46:17.:46:19.

day out in trying to find a way to get this issue resolved

:46:20.:46:22.

and they'll carry on doing that. So if this dispute is not

:46:23.:46:25.

about safety, what is it Well, Thames Link are operating

:46:26.:46:27.

the same trains on that same line with driver

:46:28.:46:31.

only operation. It's about the unions exploiting

:46:32.:46:35.

a situation in which the... Well, the franchise,

:46:36.:46:48.

under the terms of the franchise, which is more

:46:49.:46:51.

of a management agreement, really. Normally in an industrial dispute,

:46:52.:46:54.

there is an economic balance, but in this case, because the operator of

:46:55.:46:58.

the line is not actually suffering from the loss of income

:46:59.:47:04.

when the trains don't run because the fare boxes been

:47:05.:47:08.

picked up by the taxpayer, And that's been exploited

:47:09.:47:12.

by the trade unions... Those people on strike

:47:13.:47:18.

are losing money each time But the company isn't really losing

:47:19.:47:20.

any money and that's the problem. What do you think the motivation

:47:21.:47:28.

of the unions is? I think the motivation

:47:29.:47:30.

of the unions is as It is because they want

:47:31.:47:32.

to have the railways back in public ownership so they can hold,

:47:33.:47:38.

not just the commuters in this part of the south-east to

:47:39.:47:40.

ransom, but all commuters to ransom. The public generally do

:47:41.:47:43.

want to see public ownership. Every poll has shown that,

:47:44.:47:49.

but anyway, I really don't think the majority of staff who are

:47:50.:47:52.

on strike are motivated by some They have to vote about

:47:53.:47:55.

whether they want to go on strike and have actually got

:47:56.:48:06.

stricter rules on that by just about any other country in

:48:07.:48:09.

the developed world. So they've got to vote to say

:48:10.:48:11.

whether they want to go on strike or not and they said they did

:48:12.:48:14.

want to in this instance. What do you think the company's

:48:15.:48:17.

motivation is here? Do you think they are just trying

:48:18.:48:19.

to drive their costs down, this is costing, it's costing

:48:20.:48:22.

the taxpayer a fortune, but it's not the railway

:48:23.:48:24.

they would like to run, it's damaging the reputation

:48:25.:48:27.

of an international company? It is, but ultimately,

:48:28.:48:28.

I think this is about safety. I actually think the regulator

:48:29.:48:31.

was wrong to say it wasn't, because we have had

:48:32.:48:33.

instances when people have been Why do you think the

:48:34.:48:36.

company won't settle? Because they know that ultimately,

:48:37.:48:40.

the balance of evidence I just want to make one other point,

:48:41.:48:42.

it's not just about safety, it's also about the fact,

:48:43.:48:48.

if you are a disabled person in a wheelchair

:48:49.:48:50.

and you are trying to get on to a train

:48:51.:48:52.

that only has a driver operating it, you have to have told the rail

:48:53.:48:55.

company when you are going Why do you think the company

:48:56.:48:58.

won't settle this? Because I think they feel

:48:59.:49:04.

if they got dragged into talking about any of the detail they'd have

:49:05.:49:07.

to concede they are wrong on this. Jeremy Corbyn says their strings

:49:08.:49:10.

are being pulled by the government, do

:49:11.:49:12.

you agree with that? Yes, because if you look at when all

:49:13.:49:17.

of this move towards a lot of driverless trains happened

:49:18.:49:20.

in more general use across the networks, we're not talking just

:49:21.:49:23.

about some services for airports, whatever, when all of that started

:49:24.:49:25.

to happen, the government completely Now they are trying to wash

:49:26.:49:28.

their hands and say this is just something between the rail

:49:29.:49:33.

companies and the unions. Actually, it's a battle

:49:34.:49:35.

between the labour movement and a Actually, it's a battle

:49:36.:49:40.

between the Labour movement and a But it's you two who are

:49:41.:49:43.

putting the commuters The commuters are being held

:49:44.:49:47.

to ransom, as was said in By both sides, by a government

:49:48.:49:50.

paying ?60 million to keep Yes, but what do you think

:49:51.:49:54.

the government can do that they are not

:49:55.:49:58.

doing at the moment? What the government is saying,

:49:59.:50:01.

on the same line, Thames Link are running, not driverless,

:50:02.:50:05.

but trains with drivers only. And that is working fine,

:50:06.:50:08.

no problem on safety. What are we expecting

:50:09.:50:13.

the government to do? Because of the problem in the

:50:14.:50:17.

franchise arrangements, I think it means the government is not able

:50:18.:50:23.

to say to the company, if you carry on like this,

:50:24.:50:26.

you will have to pay the bill. You need public control don't you,

:50:27.:50:29.

if that's the problem? So long as this is

:50:30.:50:31.

a political dispute, and I think that's pretty much

:50:32.:50:34.

what most people have no thought, It needs politicians

:50:35.:50:37.

to say, we want to stop It's very disappointing

:50:38.:50:41.

Jeremy Corbyn didn't use his position to say

:50:42.:50:44.

to the unions, why don't you Anybody watching this will think

:50:45.:50:46.

oh my goodness, we have two politicians arguing about this

:50:47.:50:56.

and this is incredibly annoying. Ultimately, what we've

:50:57.:51:00.

always got to preserve I'm terribly sorry,

:51:01.:51:02.

but it really is. If it doesn't come down to politics,

:51:03.:51:07.

it comes down to safety? With all due respect,

:51:08.:51:13.

lots of experts would not agree with that, I'm sorry,

:51:14.:51:19.

but they really wouldn't. It would be nice to get some

:51:20.:51:21.

resolution wouldn't it, but I don't think any of us

:51:22.:51:23.

will be able to do it. I think it's desperate

:51:24.:51:26.

that we must find a solution. If you've been wincing at the recent

:51:27.:51:29.

rises in petrol prices, maybe going electric is starting

:51:30.:51:32.

to look attractive. You won't be alone, electric

:51:33.:51:34.

vehicle ownership has more But the number of charging points

:51:35.:51:36.

where you can plug in and re-juice an Ultra Low Emission Vehicle,

:51:37.:51:42.

or ULEV, is struggling to keep There are over 30 cars

:51:43.:51:45.

million on our roads. We all enjoy the convenience,

:51:46.:52:02.

whether that is commuting But with air pollution

:52:03.:52:04.

at an all-time high and an increased demand on fossil fuels,

:52:05.:52:10.

shouldn't we be looking This could be any other car,

:52:11.:52:11.

but if you listen, it's so quiet and that's because it's

:52:12.:52:20.

an electric car. There's over 85,000

:52:21.:52:25.

of these on the Road. There's over 85,000

:52:26.:52:28.

of these on the road. It might not seem all

:52:29.:52:30.

like that many, but in 2013, And by 2020, that number is expected

:52:31.:52:33.

to leap to more than a million. If the infrastructure was out

:52:34.:52:40.

there to support this and we can make driving an EV easy

:52:41.:52:43.

and you haven't got to constantly worry where you can charge this,

:52:44.:52:46.

or if you are going to run out of charge, I think that

:52:47.:52:49.

promotes the change to EV. InstaVolt in Basingstoke

:52:50.:53:01.

is cashing in on the demand. They are not focusing

:53:02.:53:03.

on the cars, but ensuring there is the infrastructure

:53:04.:53:05.

to support the predicted boom. They have identified a gap

:53:06.:53:07.

in the market particularly relating The infrastructure to support

:53:08.:53:10.

a electric vehicles in the UK isn't Yes, that's the boardroom,

:53:11.:53:14.

this is going to be Their offices aren't quite ready,

:53:15.:53:20.

but the orders are coming in. The company will make its money

:53:21.:53:27.

by charging the drivers Their rapid charging system means

:53:28.:53:29.

the battery can be charged up to 80% in half an hour and that will cost

:53:30.:53:36.

the driver about ?7. Back in 2015, George Osborne spoke

:53:37.:53:41.

of the government's continued dedication to electric

:53:42.:53:47.

vehicles, or EVs. Support the low carbon

:53:48.:53:49.

electricity and renewables The development and sale

:53:50.:53:50.

of ultralow emission vehicles It's a policy the government

:53:51.:53:54.

continues to push, offering But as the solar industry found out

:53:55.:54:00.

after its funding was cut, the government could row back

:54:01.:54:05.

on its promises at any time. InstaVolt isn't tied to any

:54:06.:54:14.

government scheme and has raised over ?12 million

:54:15.:54:16.

from the private sector. Whenever you are lying

:54:17.:54:18.

on government grants, it's always a finite

:54:19.:54:19.

amount of money. Typically, local authorities have

:54:20.:54:22.

had to bid for grant money, typically it's been oversubscribed

:54:23.:54:25.

and therefore a number of local authorities haven't been able

:54:26.:54:27.

to install the infrastructure they'd Finite or not, Oxford is taking

:54:28.:54:30.

advantage and tapping into an ?800,000 grant,

:54:31.:54:37.

which will allow the council to try different ways

:54:38.:54:39.

of powering up these vehicles. And those in the know

:54:40.:54:42.

at the transport research laboratory in Woking are convinced EVs

:54:43.:54:45.

are the future. The question now is about making

:54:46.:54:48.

sure the charging and infrastructure It's the right technology,

:54:49.:54:51.

it's fit for purpose and looking a few years ahead so people can make

:54:52.:54:56.

those buying decisions for vehicles feeling comfortable that in a few

:54:57.:55:00.

years' time it will still be relevant, acceptable

:55:01.:55:03.

and accessible for them. Here in the centre of Basingstoke

:55:04.:55:07.

we found one user who says charging We realise it's in its early

:55:08.:55:10.

stages, but the key I have noticed motorway services,

:55:11.:55:24.

there is quite a queue sometimes Low emission vehicles

:55:25.:55:28.

are currently more expensive, which does put some people off,

:55:29.:55:35.

but the transition from standard We have never been through this

:55:36.:55:38.

transition before in Ever since horse and carriage, they

:55:39.:55:43.

used internal combustion engine. We are figuring out how this

:55:44.:55:47.

is going to happen and evolve. Whether that evolution is driven

:55:48.:55:51.

through government policy or the private sector,

:55:52.:55:53.

the EV market is gathering momentum. We haven't come a long way

:55:54.:55:59.

in 20 years, have we? Chris Chope, ?600 million

:56:00.:56:14.

the government is going to put in to subsidise electric

:56:15.:56:22.

vehicles over the next five years, 50,000 plug-in points,

:56:23.:56:25.

100,000 people getting Is that the sort of money

:56:26.:56:26.

you'd put in in subsidy? Well, we did subsidise

:56:27.:56:30.

the commencement of unleaded We gave a fiscal incentive

:56:31.:56:32.

to encourage people to buy unleaded petrol and for the

:56:33.:56:35.

producers to develop it. So I'm not against it in principle,

:56:36.:56:37.

but I think the bigger I have great hopes

:56:38.:56:40.

Graphene batteries will transform the attractiveness

:56:41.:56:43.

of this form of transport because Graphene batteries have the prospect

:56:44.:56:46.

of being able to take your car 400 miles rather than very

:56:47.:56:50.

short distances. They would be lighter

:56:51.:56:55.

and if they are mass-produced, they It's all great until

:56:56.:56:57.

the subsidy does run out. The government doesn't always keep

:56:58.:57:04.

things going, does it? It didn't for unleaded petrol either

:57:05.:57:06.

and it shouldn't have done. I think the technological

:57:07.:57:09.

development here is a lot more sophisticated and that

:57:10.:57:10.

is where there is a difference. And that's where actually I think,

:57:11.:57:14.

having a continuing appropriate, well spent, well-run

:57:15.:57:16.

subsidies is important. It then also crowds in firms

:57:17.:57:18.

focusing on this in our region Whereas with unleaded,

:57:19.:57:20.

it is a relatively simple change. With the development of this

:57:21.:57:26.

technology it's very, very difficult and I want

:57:27.:57:29.

to see our firms here I want to have British companies

:57:30.:57:31.

doing it, just like the It does mean we shouldn't

:57:32.:57:35.

have, for example, the halving of the grant that is

:57:36.:57:39.

available to individuals to have one We shouldn't see that

:57:40.:57:42.

chop and change. Like we saw with solar, which has

:57:43.:57:46.

been so detrimental, we need to have that stability because otherwise

:57:47.:57:50.

you will get British It would be better if we invested

:57:51.:57:52.

in trying to get Graphene, because the Graphene has a prospect

:57:53.:57:59.

of transforming this bull market. because the Graphene has a prospect

:58:00.:58:04.

of transforming this whole market. The government was putting subsidies

:58:05.:58:07.

in trying to develop that new technology, wouldn't

:58:08.:58:09.

that be a better way? Some people think that government

:58:10.:58:11.

should pick winners, others think they should create

:58:12.:58:13.

the conditions for the market Perhaps we would agree on that

:58:14.:58:16.

and perhaps this is the case where we need to build up the demand

:58:17.:58:20.

and that's where government should be doing more than it's

:58:21.:58:23.

doing at the moment. And as I said, not

:58:24.:58:25.

chopping and changing. And would it make a difference

:58:26.:58:27.

for the environment as well if we had more

:58:28.:58:30.

of those electric vehicles? Now our regular round-up

:58:31.:58:32.

of the political week The Prime Minister, Theresa May,

:58:33.:58:34.

visited Hampshire as she launched The Well Being Centre in Aldershot

:58:35.:58:41.

provide support for people I thought she was going

:58:42.:58:50.

to be a bit more stern, but she was very laid

:58:51.:58:54.

back, quite relaxed. Campaigners, angry about the lack

:58:55.:58:56.

of provision for homeless people in Oxford have taken over a former

:58:57.:58:59.

car showroom to use as a centre. I don't want to see

:59:00.:59:02.

anyone freezing to death They have created sleeping areas

:59:03.:59:04.

and are offering hot food. To speed the queue of

:59:05.:59:08.

cars past Stonehenge, will cost ?1.4 billion,

:59:09.:59:13.

that's the cost of a tunnel around You will have 1.8 miles

:59:14.:59:16.

of clear space within We would look to start

:59:17.:59:21.

construction in early 2020. Finally, a practical course in bike

:59:22.:59:27.

awareness for the drivers of Aylesbury District Council bin

:59:28.:59:30.

lorries. All agreed the experience of two

:59:31.:59:36.

wheels was an eye-opener. Actually, ?1.4 billion for that

:59:37.:59:40.

tunnel, that could have done an awful lot of good in the homeless

:59:41.:59:46.

shelter, couldn't it? Is it a waste of money,

:59:47.:59:49.

the Stonehenge tunnel? Well, it's a very difficult one

:59:50.:59:51.

because some people would say In Oxford's case you've got

:59:52.:59:54.

a council there that's building new homes, but a lot of other

:59:55.:59:59.

councils won't let them do that, so it's not even all

:00:00.:00:03.

a bit about the money. The road, the A303

:00:04.:00:05.

needs to be speeded up. And Hindhead Tunnel

:00:06.:00:09.

is a demonstration of how having tunnel technology can

:00:10.:00:12.

really be worthwhile. And improve the environment,

:00:13.:00:15.

which is what they are That's the Sunday Politics

:00:16.:00:17.

in the South, thanks to my guests Next week we're going to be taking

:00:18.:00:21.

a look at the fairer funding formula for schools and who've been

:00:22.:00:25.

winners and losers. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:26.:00:27.

would tone things down after the American election

:00:28.:00:49.

campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:00:50.:01:00.

President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:01.:01:04.

on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:05.:01:05.

inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:06.:01:07.

to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:08.:01:11.

at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:12.:01:15.

in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:16.:01:17.

obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:18.:01:19.

news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:20.:01:35.

you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:36.:01:40.

a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:41.:01:43.

which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:44.:01:49.

going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:50.:01:53.

believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:54.:01:56.

a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:01:57.:01:59.

guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:00.:02:01.

returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:02.:02:09.

public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:10.:02:24.

last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:25.:02:26.

hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:27.:02:31.

will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:32.:02:34.

from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:35.:02:39.

the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:40.:02:41.

ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:42.:02:46.

has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:47.:02:49.

committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:50.:02:53.

incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:54.:02:57.

spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:02:58.:03:01.

him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:02.:03:06.

following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:07.:03:10.

all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:11.:03:14.

Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:15.:03:18.

getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:19.:03:23.

marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:24.:03:27.

He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:28.:03:30.

cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:31.:03:42.

weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:43.:03:46.

cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:47.:03:51.

he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:52.:03:54.

look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:03:55.:03:59.

point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:00.:04:02.

negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:03.:04:06.

him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:07.:04:10.

pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:11.:04:15.

differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:16.:04:22.

the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:23.:04:26.

try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:27.:04:29.

the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:30.:04:36.

are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:37.:04:42.

that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:43.:04:45.

this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:46.:04:49.

fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:50.:04:53.

I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:54.:04:57.

media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:04:58.:05:03.

told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:04.:05:10.

in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:11.:05:14.

who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:15.:05:18.

seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:19.:05:23.

that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:24.:05:26.

independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:27.:05:31.

too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:32.:05:34.

3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:35.:05:39.

now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:40.:05:45.

three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:46.:05:49.

We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:50.:05:52.

appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:53.:05:55.

billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:05:56.:05:58.

simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:05:59.:06:03.

thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:04.:06:05.

day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:06.:06:10.

to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:11.:06:18.

hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:19.:06:21.

really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:22.:06:28.

consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:29.:06:32.

about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:33.:06:35.

doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:36.:06:39.

to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:40.:06:42.

something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:43.:06:46.

won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:47.:06:49.

magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:50.:06:54.

he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:55.:06:57.

liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:06:58.:07:01.

my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:02.:07:04.

LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:05.:07:08.

system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:09.:07:13.

is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:14.:07:17.

balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:18.:07:21.

system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:22.:07:24.

way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:25.:07:30.

to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:31.:07:36.

him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:37.:07:42.

disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:43.:07:46.

and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:47.:07:50.

feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:51.:07:55.

those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:07:56.:07:59.

you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:00.:08:02.

offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:03.:08:05.

may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:06.:08:13.

parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:14.:08:15.

country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:16.:08:17.

free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:18.:08:24.

as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:25.:08:28.

the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:29.:08:32.

British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:33.:08:35.

loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:36.:08:39.

very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:40.:08:44.

Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:45.:08:50.

me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:51.:08:54.

period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:08:55.:08:58.

game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:08:59.:09:02.

whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:03.:09:08.

from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:09.:09:12.

Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:13.:09:15.

If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:16.:09:18.

Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:19.:09:19.

Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:20.:09:24.

as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:25.:09:27.

It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:28.:09:29.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:30.:09:32.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:33.:09:34.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:35.:09:36.

Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:37.:09:41.

you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:42.:09:45.

I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:46.:09:47.

let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:48.:09:50.

are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:51.:09:52.

levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:53.:09:54.

where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:55.:09:56.

frightened of going to university because of the debts

:09:57.:09:59.

they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:00.:10:02.

Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:03.:10:08.

the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:09.:10:12.

they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:13.:10:15.

to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:16.:10:20.

their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:21.:10:25.

has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:26.:10:28.

they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:29.:10:31.

tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:32.:10:36.

Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:37.:10:39.

summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:40.:10:45.

the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:46.:10:49.

we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:50.:10:55.

as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:10:56.:11:00.

they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:01.:11:05.

mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:06.:11:09.

one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:10.:11:13.

sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:14.:11:17.

happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:18.:11:21.

a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:22.:11:25.

Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:26.:11:33.

because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:34.:11:35.

literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:36.:11:37.

you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:38.:11:40.

steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:41.:11:43.

feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:44.:11:47.

by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:48.:11:51.

and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:52.:11:56.

thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:11:57.:12:01.

to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:02.:12:09.

as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:10.:12:11.

afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:12.:12:14.

what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:15.:12:20.

elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:21.:12:22.

generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:23.:12:27.

out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:28.:12:30.

very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:31.:12:33.

would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:34.:12:37.

ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:38.:12:43.

Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:44.:12:48.

talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:49.:12:51.

laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:52.:12:56.

nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:12:57.:13:00.

has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:01.:13:04.

could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:05.:13:06.

I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:07.:13:09.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:10.:13:11.

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