22/01/2017 Sunday Politics South


22/01/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:37.

Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US

:00:38.:00:41.

President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very

:00:42.:00:43.

frank" conversations with the new and controversial

:00:44.:00:46.

Speaking of the 45th President of America,

:00:47.:00:53.

we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold

:00:54.:00:57.

in store for Britain and the rest of the world.

:00:58.:01:03.

And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should

:01:04.:01:06.

have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask

:01:07.:01:09.

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott what Labour will do next.

:01:10.:01:13.

In the south, the government's got a new funding formula for schools it

:01:14.:01:17.

says is fairer than the old one, but is it?

:01:18.:01:19.

We'll hear from schools who will actually be worse off.

:01:20.:01:33.

And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three

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journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be

:01:37.:01:38.

relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -

:01:39.:01:42.

and their willingness to come to the studio

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be

:01:52.:01:58.

tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle

:01:59.:02:01.

So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.

:02:02.:02:12.

She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,

:02:13.:02:14.

but she was also asked about a story on the front of this

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It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired

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from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June

:02:22.:02:27.

The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons

:02:28.:02:36.

Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking

:02:37.:02:39.

The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

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It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

:02:46.:02:49.

whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

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That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.

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That's what the House of Commons voted for.

:02:56.:02:57.

He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent

:02:58.:03:02.

There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

:03:03.:03:10.

What we were talking about in that debate that took place...

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I'm not going to get an answer to this.

:03:19.:03:25.

Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the

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front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister

:03:33.:03:36.

wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but

:03:37.:03:43.

the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all

:03:44.:03:46.

questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.

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Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You

:03:55.:04:01.

read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr

:04:02.:04:06.

four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went

:04:07.:04:09.

into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion

:04:10.:04:16.

replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it

:04:17.:04:19.

have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.

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If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are

:04:26.:04:31.

matters of national security. There's nothing more important in

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that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.

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End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a

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good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she

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is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,

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and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know

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and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider

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point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,

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suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,

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because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.

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But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent

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awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the

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missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her

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comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often

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struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and

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we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the

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missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.

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What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests

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they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles

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work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have

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known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job

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on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some

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would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people

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from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by

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mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing

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as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are

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going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime

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Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on

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Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If

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anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!

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So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing

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to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th

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President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.

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Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -

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instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering

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attack on the dark state of the nation and the political

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class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach

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from the campaign trail to the White House.

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Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how

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First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange

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Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched

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I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...

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The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,

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the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.

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From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.

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In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.

:08:16.:08:40.

Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.

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The President, who'd criticised the work of

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the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.

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There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community

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And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled

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the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.

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So, as you heard there, President Trump used his

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inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"

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in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect

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He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and

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American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key

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parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care

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act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global

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warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate

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Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would

:10:00.:10:03.

restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also

:10:04.:10:09.

said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with

:10:10.:10:13.

threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a

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bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and

:10:19.:10:24.

order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building

:10:25.:10:29.

the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the

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first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who

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is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -

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he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's

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choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's

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just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -

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he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I

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made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval

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office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union

:11:07.:11:09.

integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,

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a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime

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Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,

:11:21.:11:24.

the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.

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Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an

:11:30.:11:34.

act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be

:11:35.:11:40.

oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral

:11:41.:11:51.

or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone

:11:52.:11:56.

in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the

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unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing

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called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,

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creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These

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institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was

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at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and

:12:29.:12:32.

prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When

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something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the

:12:38.:12:41.

consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new

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president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that

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so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and

:12:52.:12:56.

institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has

:12:57.:13:04.

argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more

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involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process

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with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama

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stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the

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world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers

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have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That

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power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are

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foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself

:13:43.:13:48.

around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some

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may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,

:13:53.:13:58.

and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald

:13:59.:14:02.

Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be

:14:03.:14:06.

more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are

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tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are

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still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr

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Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that

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clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe

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in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral

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relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a

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president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly

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critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary

:14:54.:14:58.

of State, national security, do you think that will temper this

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anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?

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I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world

:15:11.:15:15.

will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of

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State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge

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him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most

:15:26.:15:30.

successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is

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already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means

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you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these

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institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of

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millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about

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is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such

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an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian

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tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.

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The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he

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said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in

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front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the

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solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That

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emphasis is going to change American life, including American

:16:34.:16:36.

International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't

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mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our

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national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's

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inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the

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White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a

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difference there. He also said something else in the address - that

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protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is

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no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting

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the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually

:17:22.:17:23.

think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If

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you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican

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senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover

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administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see

:17:47.:17:50.

how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is

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a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in

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bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's

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also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this

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election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history

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and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a

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mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more

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trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the

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world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's

:18:36.:18:38.

leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great

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businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is

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debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from

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the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to

:18:53.:18:56.

reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both

:18:57.:19:03.

lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will

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walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese

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from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do

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that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war

:19:16.:19:19.

between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most

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important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't

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lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when

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you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China

:19:33.:19:37.

the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and

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Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.

:19:54.:19:59.

Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he

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hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to

:20:06.:20:13.

him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting

:20:14.:20:16.

a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is

:20:17.:20:20.

why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United

:20:21.:20:26.

States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point

:20:27.:20:31.

of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern

:20:32.:20:35.

Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned

:20:36.:20:39.

to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat

:20:40.:20:45.

economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think

:20:46.:20:52.

Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown

:20:53.:20:56.

herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in

:20:57.:21:01.

Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of

:21:02.:21:06.

the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about

:21:07.:21:11.

dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has

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another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the

:21:17.:21:22.

American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,

:21:23.:21:24.

including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find

:21:25.:21:31.

anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more

:21:32.:21:34.

important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like

:21:35.:21:39.

preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese

:21:40.:21:42.

and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear

:21:43.:21:49.

deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff

:21:50.:21:54.

and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we

:21:55.:21:57.

are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving

:21:58.:22:01.

into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that

:22:02.:22:06.

ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his

:22:07.:22:14.

inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he

:22:15.:22:16.

didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They

:22:17.:22:23.

are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's

:22:24.:22:26.

easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the

:22:27.:22:33.

United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things

:22:34.:22:37.

that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of

:22:38.:22:44.

State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful

:22:45.:22:48.

creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming

:22:49.:22:53.

and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to

:22:54.:22:56.

create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final

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word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up

:23:03.:23:06.

America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things

:23:07.:23:10.

that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.

:23:11.:23:16.

His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's

:23:17.:23:20.

abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going

:23:21.:23:28.

to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that

:23:29.:23:33.

realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked

:23:34.:23:36.

on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90

:23:37.:23:43.

days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.

:23:44.:23:48.

Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.

:23:49.:23:52.

So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -

:23:53.:23:55.

perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer

:23:56.:23:57.

claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit

:23:58.:24:00.

wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.

:24:01.:24:03.

To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -

:24:04.:24:05.

to her opponents it was full of contradictions

:24:06.:24:07.

Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how

:24:08.:24:11.

There are speeches, and there are speeches.

:24:12.:24:16.

Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading

:24:17.:24:19.

to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms

:24:20.:24:22.

This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade

:24:23.:24:26.

in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.

:24:27.:24:29.

It should give British companies the maximum

:24:30.:24:34.

operate within European markets and let European businesses do

:24:35.:24:37.

She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,

:24:38.:24:45.

We want to test what people think about what she's just said.

:24:46.:25:01.

Do we have any of our future negotiating

:25:02.:25:03.

As the European Parliament voted for its new

:25:04.:25:08.

president, its chief negotiator sounded off.

:25:09.:25:16.

Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept

:25:17.:25:18.

it, we're going to make from Britain a sort

:25:19.:25:21.

of free zone or tax haven, I

:25:22.:25:24.

The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's

:25:25.:25:30.

rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.

:25:31.:25:33.

We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but

:25:34.:25:37.

that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.

:25:38.:25:47.

Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic

:25:48.:25:50.

leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?

:25:51.:25:55.

The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.

:25:56.:25:58.

For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.

:25:59.:26:02.

I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming

:26:03.:26:05.

an independent country again, with control of our own laws,

:26:06.:26:07.

I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because

:26:08.:26:14.

There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and

:26:15.:26:18.

Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?

:26:19.:26:22.

There will, at the end of this deal process,

:26:23.:26:24.

so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but

:26:25.:26:28.

We take the view as Liberal Democrats that

:26:29.:26:31.

if this process started with democracy last June,

:26:32.:26:33.

We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them

:26:34.:26:37.

Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all

:26:38.:26:44.

watching it in a small room somewhere?

:26:45.:26:46.

Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that

:26:47.:26:53.

somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal

:26:54.:26:56.

with the European Union didn't work, we would move

:26:57.:26:58.

into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the

:26:59.:27:00.

I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what

:27:01.:27:04.

The Labour leader suggested he'd tell

:27:05.:27:11.

his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if

:27:12.:27:14.

Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among

:27:15.:27:16.

Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?

:27:17.:27:22.

Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic

:27:23.:27:31.

Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been

:27:32.:27:41.

anticipating since the referendum result,

:27:42.:27:43.

particularly around the

:27:44.:27:44.

I think what we've also seen today is the Government's

:27:45.:27:48.

willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I

:27:49.:27:51.

Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you

:27:52.:27:56.

have to be pretty tough to get what you want.

:27:57.:27:58.

Although some business people on the slopes speculated

:27:59.:28:00.

about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.

:28:01.:28:03.

We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,

:28:04.:28:21.

but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit

:28:22.:28:24.

Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.

:28:25.:28:27.

People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are

:28:28.:28:36.

four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the

:28:37.:28:41.

referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that

:28:42.:28:46.

nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't

:28:47.:28:49.

have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,

:28:50.:28:53.

millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.

:28:54.:28:56.

However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to

:28:57.:29:04.

parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the

:29:05.:29:09.

triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is

:29:10.:29:13.

what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our

:29:14.:29:20.

policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We

:29:21.:29:25.

don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what

:29:26.:29:30.

legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what

:29:31.:29:33.

amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block

:29:34.:29:40.

it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we

:29:41.:29:48.

will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are

:29:49.:29:52.

too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU

:29:53.:29:55.

migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer

:29:56.:30:00.

to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would

:30:01.:30:04.

you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how

:30:05.:30:09.

we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the

:30:10.:30:13.

Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those

:30:14.:30:16.

amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain

:30:17.:30:20.

whether they voted to leave remain want answered.

:30:21.:30:26.

When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I

:30:27.:30:34.

can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.

:30:35.:30:39.

But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard

:30:40.:30:45.

this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on

:30:46.:30:50.

Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead

:30:51.:30:56.

of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,

:30:57.:31:00.

when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the

:31:01.:31:04.

whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip

:31:05.:31:11.

on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote

:31:12.:31:16.

that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against

:31:17.:31:22.

it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a

:31:23.:31:26.

three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember

:31:27.:31:33.

when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these

:31:34.:31:36.

Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just

:31:37.:31:43.

another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds

:31:44.:31:55.

voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country

:31:56.:32:00.

and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous

:32:01.:32:06.

a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a

:32:07.:32:15.

three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you

:32:16.:32:20.

believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think

:32:21.:32:25.

that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.

:32:26.:32:31.

What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her

:32:32.:32:36.

priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should

:32:37.:32:43.

remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the

:32:44.:32:47.

economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is

:32:48.:32:52.

Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?

:32:53.:32:57.

Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they

:32:58.:33:01.

come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to

:33:02.:33:08.

remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,

:33:09.:33:16.

ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the

:33:17.:33:20.

jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.

:33:21.:33:26.

Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.

:33:27.:33:32.

Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has

:33:33.:33:41.

made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's

:33:42.:33:48.

position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that

:33:49.:33:53.

you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,

:33:54.:33:57.

including being a member of the single market, without

:33:58.:34:00.

responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,

:34:01.:34:04.

is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is

:34:05.:34:13.

that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a

:34:14.:34:18.

member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.

:34:19.:34:22.

Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting

:34:23.:34:28.

negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it

:34:29.:34:33.

Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,

:34:34.:34:43.

if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has

:34:44.:34:52.

unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!

:34:53.:35:01.

It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it

:35:02.:35:07.

Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's

:35:08.:35:13.

position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how

:35:14.:35:17.

the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs

:35:18.:35:22.

union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove

:35:23.:35:28.

catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do

:35:29.:35:33.

accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own

:35:34.:35:40.

free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The

:35:41.:35:46.

ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to

:35:47.:35:51.

protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about

:35:52.:35:56.

free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will

:35:57.:36:01.

get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the

:36:02.:36:08.

NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If

:36:09.:36:13.

she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the

:36:14.:36:17.

customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for

:36:18.:36:23.

Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.

:36:24.:36:28.

I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating

:36:29.:36:37.

that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would

:36:38.:36:42.

that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,

:36:43.:36:46.

so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.

:36:47.:36:49.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:50.:36:50.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:51.:36:53.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,

:36:54.:36:56.

when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James

:36:57.:36:58.

about the government's new industrial strategy and that

:36:59.:37:01.

crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.

:37:02.:37:04.

My name is Peter Henley. Politics where you are.

:37:05.:37:23.

On today's show, fairer funding for schools.

:37:24.:37:25.

The government's new funding formula was meant to end the postcode

:37:26.:37:29.

lottery of how much cash each school gets but in Oxfordshire more than

:37:30.:37:32.

First let's meet the two victims, sorry, politicians who will be

:37:33.:37:37.

Julia Reid is UKIP MEP for the Southwest of England.

:37:38.:37:41.

Keith House is the Lib Dem leader of the council.

:37:42.:37:46.

Local government under a huge amount of financial pressure and we see

:37:47.:37:49.

A referendum to increase their council tax by 15%.

:37:50.:37:54.

When I first heard the story I thought someone was trying

:37:55.:38:01.

The idea of a Conservative council putting up council tax by 10 times

:38:02.:38:05.

Surrey is in a dreadful situation, worse than many councils

:38:06.:38:12.

It's reckless because the Chancellor of the electorate decided to put

:38:13.:38:19.

It's a cry for help I think which could be a great help

:38:20.:38:24.

for all of local government because local government has

:38:25.:38:26.

been treated very badly by government over recent years.

:38:27.:38:33.

Promises of help have never really come.

:38:34.:38:35.

All we do is we see money moved around rather than new money come

:38:36.:38:38.

to us and we got a big big problem particularly with adult social care

:38:39.:38:42.

It'll only be solved by national funding

:38:43.:38:44.

which is what the Liberal Democrats have been saying.

:38:45.:38:48.

Right, although local solutions is what national

:38:49.:38:51.

Julia, in general UKIP like referendums.

:38:52.:38:57.

This one, a million pounds they think it might cost.

:38:58.:38:59.

We think this is just being done for political reasons.

:39:00.:39:06.

I pretty much agree with what Keith said.

:39:07.:39:09.

You don't think people should have 15% increase even someone

:39:10.:39:11.

I think what will happen is, as you suggested,

:39:12.:39:16.

I'm a town councillor in the south-west where the shire

:39:17.:39:21.

counties in particular around my area have had

:39:22.:39:25.

We are in a position, that we are going to have to put

:39:26.:39:35.

up our precept and it's very unpopular because people

:39:36.:39:39.

The majority of people are struggling.

:39:40.:39:43.

It's the idea everyone in Surrey is rich.

:39:44.:39:46.

There is lots of people on average incomes struggling in Surrey just

:39:47.:39:49.

But the government keep taking money away, which I think is the problem.

:39:50.:39:56.

But do people understand, when there is a local government

:39:57.:39:59.

thing we can't afford to provide these services because they're

:40:00.:40:02.

receiving less money from national government?

:40:03.:40:04.

People have lost libraries and various other things.

:40:05.:40:12.

Our library most of the time it's empty and we have to trust people

:40:13.:40:17.

to go in and borrow books when there's nobody there.

:40:18.:40:22.

All councils I think are finding real difficulty.

:40:23.:40:27.

It's still another four months until this year's local

:40:28.:40:29.

government elections, but there's already

:40:30.:40:31.

a new administration in power at the Isle of Wight Council.

:40:32.:40:35.

That's because on Monday the leader, the deputy leader and another

:40:36.:40:37.

councillor from the executive group all of them independents, resigned.

:40:38.:40:42.

They said some councillors were too concerned with

:40:43.:40:44.

It comes after a fairly stormy few years for the island independents.

:40:45.:40:51.

They've had defections and resignations, but they got there.

:40:52.:40:57.

Joining me now from the island is Jonathan Bacon who, until Monday,

:40:58.:41:00.

I suppose I should say congratulations for getting as far

:41:01.:41:06.

as you did because people didn't think the independent group

:41:07.:41:09.

would stay together but why throw in the towel at the final furlong?

:41:10.:41:14.

I think the situation was getting intolerable.

:41:15.:41:17.

At the moment, national government is imposing death by 1,000 cuts

:41:18.:41:21.

on local government and really it's nigh on impossible to do anything

:41:22.:41:24.

and what you need in that situation is the ability to stand firm

:41:25.:41:29.

and united against government but, unfortunately, in our council,

:41:30.:41:33.

we had too money people who were more interested

:41:34.:41:37.

in politicking and bickering rather than working together.

:41:38.:41:39.

They just made the situation intolerable.

:41:40.:41:46.

And we saw it on Wednesday night in the full council meeting.

:41:47.:41:51.

I know quite a lot of people who followed my decision who never

:41:52.:41:54.

normally watch a full council meeting did so, and were actually

:41:55.:41:57.

Two hours were spent arguing about whether to have a new leader,

:41:58.:42:04.

whether to appoint a certain committee chairman, leaving only one

:42:05.:42:07.

When you've got the sort of pressures and cuts being imposed

:42:08.:42:12.

by central government, to behave in that way is farcical.

:42:13.:42:17.

It made my situation impossible and intolerable.

:42:18.:42:23.

How had you tried to stop that happening?

:42:24.:42:25.

You wanted to put people before politics.

:42:26.:42:28.

I think we just kept doing as much as we could but it's the other

:42:29.:42:39.

people who did not want to behave in that way who did not

:42:40.:42:42.

Well, I think that's probably a good thing

:42:43.:42:48.

because if they are going to stop trying to do the right thing,

:42:49.:42:52.

trying to achieve anything, then they should take

:42:53.:42:55.

the responsibility for what is happening.

:42:56.:42:58.

So there's a Conservative group now and that surely is worse as far

:42:59.:43:02.

Aren't you just playing games, putting them in just

:43:03.:43:07.

before the election hoping they will be unpopular?

:43:08.:43:11.

I'm sure some people will think that, but I think it's about time

:43:12.:43:14.

those people who have been denying any responsibility for the situation

:43:15.:43:17.

when it's their government who are creating the problems should

:43:18.:43:20.

actually stand up and we can see are they going to actually now work

:43:21.:43:26.

for the people of the Isle of Wight and challenge what government

:43:27.:43:29.

is doing rather than just rolling over and accepting the situation

:43:30.:43:33.

We've had an MP who, over the past few months,

:43:34.:43:39.

has said the island should cut its cloth.

:43:40.:43:41.

I was very disturbed to see the new council leader Dave Stewart

:43:42.:43:44.

said we have to live within our means.

:43:45.:43:47.

But what's got to be recognised and worked against is the fact that

:43:48.:43:50.

you can't do that if you don't have sufficient means.

:43:51.:43:53.

I think the situation in Surrey shows quite starkly that

:43:54.:43:57.

that's the situation across local government.

:43:58.:44:00.

We felt it particular harshly on the Isle of Wight

:44:01.:44:03.

and particularly harshly when you've got some councillors who simply

:44:04.:44:07.

won't accept that and decide to play politics rather than deal

:44:08.:44:10.

Two bits of politics business that was happening when you left,

:44:11.:44:16.

The High Court action over school holidays for John Platt.

:44:17.:44:23.

Do you think that Isle of Wight Council will now abandon that?

:44:24.:44:26.

And the devolution proposals together with Southampton

:44:27.:44:28.

Portsmouth, is there any way forward there?

:44:29.:44:33.

I can take both of those if you like.

:44:34.:44:36.

In terms of the school attendance issue, what we are dealing

:44:37.:44:40.

with there is simply a legal definition of what

:44:41.:44:42.

It's been played out as being about whether someone

:44:43.:44:48.

should go on holiday or not, when it's not.

:44:49.:44:50.

The Department of Education have taken over the case now

:44:51.:44:53.

because they are concerned at the lack of clarity in the law

:44:54.:44:55.

about when can school attendance provisions come into force.

:44:56.:45:00.

Without doubt, ask any educational professional,

:45:01.:45:04.

it's very difficult to organise the classroom system and it's very

:45:05.:45:09.

difficult for schools to operate when they don't know if they have

:45:10.:45:12.

any power over the children turning up to school or not.

:45:13.:45:15.

You think the new administration won't pursue this then?

:45:16.:45:19.

I think they need to have a conversation with the Department

:45:20.:45:22.

of Education because the only reason it's got to the stage it's

:45:23.:45:25.

at is because the Department of Education have said

:45:26.:45:27.

that they want that case to be taken to the Supreme Court.

:45:28.:45:31.

We recognise the cost issues as an administration last year

:45:32.:45:34.

and weren't going to take it any further but the Department

:45:35.:45:37.

of Education said, no, we'll pick up the tab.

:45:38.:45:39.

We think it's important, we want to take it forward

:45:40.:45:41.

and they are now party to the case so I think it's going to be

:45:42.:45:45.

a matter of the Conservative administration talking

:45:46.:45:47.

Remember, of course, as a result of what was done

:45:48.:45:53.

by the previous Conservative administration, the Isle

:45:54.:45:57.

of Wight Council is still under a direction from the ministry

:45:58.:46:00.

to improve educational standards and attendance as part of that.

:46:01.:46:05.

We have had a lot of kickbacks and it was depressing last November

:46:06.:46:15.

to visit the Secretary of State and be told we will put

:46:16.:46:18.

you in the in-tray, but not taking you any further for now.

:46:19.:46:22.

An awful lot of work had been done about that.

:46:23.:46:25.

It will be interesting again to see what the new administration

:46:26.:46:28.

in the Isle of Wight do about that, because they have been

:46:29.:46:31.

Indeed, last September-October, there were trying to block

:46:32.:46:39.

us being able to make proposal to the Secretary of State just

:46:40.:46:42.

Are they going to contest government policy that way?

:46:43.:46:48.

It will be interesting to see because if they do that,

:46:49.:46:51.

hopefully that would indicate they might contest government policy

:46:52.:46:54.

Again, that's something we need to see what's going to happen.

:46:55.:46:59.

Jonathan Bacon, thanks very much for joining us.

:47:00.:47:03.

Just quickly, do you think devolution is dead?

:47:04.:47:05.

We are very much part of the deal, South Hampshire

:47:06.:47:08.

It's the financial answer to the Isle of Wight, devolution,

:47:09.:47:15.

because it's the only way of solving the funding crisis across

:47:16.:47:18.

Southampton and the island and the rest of Hampshire too.

:47:19.:47:20.

It's about the ability to borrow long-term against business rates,

:47:21.:47:22.

deal with the infrastructure problem we have got and take proper control

:47:23.:47:25.

of our own services, so I very much hope devolution isn't dead.

:47:26.:47:29.

It is the best answer for the island, the best

:47:30.:47:31.

There is a UKIP councillor on the island and one

:47:32.:47:35.

Do think UKIP in general would support more devolution?

:47:36.:47:41.

Probably but it would depend on the circumstances I think.

:47:42.:47:46.

It does look like it's going away, no new money coming

:47:47.:47:49.

This is the answer to the no money point because devolution gives local

:47:50.:47:54.

authorities collectively the power to sort their own things out

:47:55.:47:56.

And work in a collaborative way to get investment into the patch.

:47:57.:48:04.

It gets the government off the hook and why government is so keen

:48:05.:48:07.

on devolution but requires local authorities to together

:48:08.:48:09.

so the Isle of Wight, we need them on board.

:48:10.:48:13.

The captain has jumped ship, but thank you anyway,

:48:14.:48:15.

Schools in many areas of our region had been complaining for years

:48:16.:48:20.

that the funding formula the government uses to calculate how

:48:21.:48:23.

much cash they get has been unfairly weighted against them.

:48:24.:48:27.

In an effort to address that, the government has come up

:48:28.:48:29.

with a new formala but does it get any better marks than the old one?

:48:30.:48:39.

Our Oxfordshire reporter Beth and Phillips has been finding out

:48:40.:48:42.

Our Oxfordshire reporter Bethan Phillips has been finding out

:48:43.:48:44.

why schools in some parts of the South have been feeling

:48:45.:48:46.

It's the ultimate political football.

:48:47.:48:56.

And just like the beautiful game, it's all about the money.

:48:57.:49:01.

Oxfordshire schools have traditionally been in the lower half

:49:02.:49:03.

of the league when it comes to school funding.

:49:04.:49:05.

Last year, the government promised to tackle unfairness in the system.

:49:06.:49:09.

Hopes were raised that schools here would be in for a big win,

:49:10.:49:12.

but actually, nearly half of schools are going to lose money

:49:13.:49:15.

133 schools will get more funding but overall,

:49:16.:49:22.

funding is only going by 0.8% for Oxfordshire schools,

:49:23.:49:25.

Calls for fairer funding are nothing new.

:49:26.:49:35.

Schools in West Sussex even lobbied the Prime Minister about it,

:49:36.:49:37.

saying they might have to cut back on the school week.

:49:38.:49:40.

MPs and teachers across the South have known for a long time

:49:41.:49:44.

that their schools were losing out to London.

:49:45.:49:47.

Our schools in Poole and Dorset were amongst the worst funded

:49:48.:49:50.

Dorset was 11th worst and there was no rhyme or reason for it.

:49:51.:49:56.

If there had been an explanation, because Dorset is thought

:49:57.:49:58.

to be a wealthier area, I could have accepted it.

:49:59.:50:01.

But when the new formula was revealed in Oxfordshire,

:50:02.:50:04.

We are facing an unsustainable cut to our budgets, and I'm

:50:05.:50:13.

And for struggling school smaller schools

:50:14.:50:19.

Potentially, yes, it means closures, but I just don't see how that

:50:20.:50:26.

And I think there will be a huge political backlash before

:50:27.:50:31.

At this primary School in Henley, it will lose ?11,000 over two years.

:50:32.:50:40.

Head teacher Jacky Steele said it could mean losing a member of staff.

:50:41.:50:45.

If we are constantly stretched, and constantly having

:50:46.:50:49.

to give something up, which essentially is what's

:50:50.:50:52.

happening with lack of funding and resources, then it's going to be

:50:53.:50:55.

even harder to achieve the results and the standards

:50:56.:50:59.

The bar is being raised ever higher and we are stretching further.

:51:00.:51:05.

That is a really big ask of school leaders.

:51:06.:51:09.

At the other end of the funding league table is Windmill

:51:10.:51:11.

It is getting a 2.8% boost under the new formula.

:51:12.:51:17.

But headteacher Lynn Knapp says that money will only

:51:18.:51:19.

I think it's about maintaining our staff.

:51:20.:51:25.

Where we were looking to going into deficit,

:51:26.:51:27.

we can't employ an extra staff member, maybe we'll have

:51:28.:51:29.

to make redundancies, so by having a standstill figure

:51:30.:51:33.

or an increase we are just protecting the staff we've got.

:51:34.:51:37.

We're certainly not looking at increasing our staffing level.

:51:38.:51:42.

While some Oxfordshire schools feel left on the subs

:51:43.:51:45.

bench by the new formula, schools in Dorset have won

:51:46.:51:48.

MP Michael Tomlinson says it's good news.

:51:49.:51:55.

In my constituency alone, mid Dorset North Poole,

:51:56.:51:58.

it's an increased funding overall of ?1 million for our schools,

:51:59.:52:01.

I used to be a school governor myself.

:52:02.:52:06.

I know how carefully governors and schools look at the individual

:52:07.:52:08.

budgets and this will make a significant difference

:52:09.:52:10.

The Department for Education insists the new formula will mean an end

:52:11.:52:16.

to the postcode lottery in school funding, but in Oxfordshire,

:52:17.:52:20.

fears remain that for some schools losing out, it could be game over.

:52:21.:52:28.

Julia, the system had been creaking, hadn't it?

:52:29.:52:32.

The data was hugely old for these different schools and schools

:52:33.:52:37.

with very similar catchments in areas were getting hugely

:52:38.:52:39.

But there will always have to be winners and losers.

:52:40.:52:46.

It is a difficult decision, isn't it?

:52:47.:52:47.

We've heard about Dorset, but the majority of our counties

:52:48.:52:53.

in I think rural areas, historically, for whatever reason,

:52:54.:52:58.

they've ended up with a lot less money than urban areas.

:52:59.:53:02.

I'm not suggesting that to take money away from schools

:53:03.:53:05.

is a good thing, we've heard, but obviously something had to be

:53:06.:53:09.

done about rural areas because they weren't getting

:53:10.:53:11.

What would UKIP's solution have been, put more money into it?

:53:12.:53:19.

Hopefully, when we've left the European Union and we don't

:53:20.:53:24.

At the moment, 350 million is going to the NHS.

:53:25.:53:38.

Our figure is we would save between ?200-?220 million a week.

:53:39.:53:46.

And some of that money would be able to go on issues such as education.

:53:47.:53:52.

Getting rid of extra care at home, some will go on schools.

:53:53.:53:57.

The aid budget, you still want to reduce that?

:53:58.:53:59.

Given leaving the EU is going to make as poor as a country,

:54:00.:54:05.

there's going to be less money to go to schools and the health service.

:54:06.:54:09.

The problem with education funding is we've had nationalised

:54:10.:54:11.

Every decision, every bit of school funding have been taken by minister

:54:12.:54:18.

The real answer is proper devolution.

:54:19.:54:22.

School funding, alongside health funding, handed back

:54:23.:54:23.

to local communities through their local

:54:24.:54:25.

It's the only way to solve these issues so local people get

:54:26.:54:32.

the balance between affluent and less affluent.

:54:33.:54:36.

This could be a whole new line for UKIP, surely?

:54:37.:54:40.

Pull us out of national government as well as out of Europe.

:54:41.:54:45.

Why isn't Paul Nuttall going more strongly for this?

:54:46.:54:49.

Is it because he has different principles to Nigel Farage?

:54:50.:54:57.

I think on the main issues Nigel and Paul are straight

:54:58.:54:59.

down the line the same which is UKIP principles,...

:55:00.:55:08.

There will be more money when we leave Europe

:55:09.:55:10.

I don't see UKIP's role in local government in terms of deciding

:55:11.:55:18.

which money goes to particular project and how loudly

:55:19.:55:20.

at government to say this isn't working.

:55:21.:55:26.

Actually, where we are on councils in sufficient numbers,

:55:27.:55:28.

we've managed to make quite a good saving.

:55:29.:55:30.

We're against this cabinet system lots of councils have.

:55:31.:55:38.

UKIP in local government is falling apart.

:55:39.:55:42.

councillors four years ago and only have seven left mouthfuls of three

:55:43.:55:49.

have gone, one's gone to the Tories, one has become independent and one

:55:50.:55:52.

resigned from is it for not turning up to meetings so UKIP don't

:55:53.:55:55.

have a record in local government because there's no consistency.

:55:56.:55:58.

What is your role now in Brussels and Strasbourg question you're

:55:59.:56:01.

being paid by the taxpayer to be there and yet we are now leaving

:56:02.:56:05.

While we are still in the EU, we need to have MEPs

:56:06.:56:12.

there to make sure the British people actually know

:56:13.:56:14.

Until UKIP actually sent MEPs to Brussels,

:56:15.:56:21.

we were just kept in the ignorance and actually the grand plan

:56:22.:56:24.

of what European ever closer union and harmonisation meant,

:56:25.:56:28.

so we are still there and UKIP MEPs, since this latest legislature,

:56:29.:56:33.

we all turn up, we attend our committees, we vote.

:56:34.:56:38.

Nigel Farage has got a history of not turning up to committees.

:56:39.:56:42.

Being paid for a job but not doing it.

:56:43.:56:53.

At one point, there was very little reason for us to turn up because...

:56:54.:56:56.

You are being paid to turn up and argue a case.

:56:57.:56:59.

It's exactly the same for not turning up to

:57:00.:57:05.

Hampshire county council and having to resign.

:57:06.:57:06.

It was deemed we would be better off working hard in the UK.

:57:07.:57:09.

They won the referendum at the end of the day.

:57:10.:57:14.

The real issue now is we are getting a deal which is not

:57:15.:57:17.

People were told we'll leave the European Union but stay

:57:18.:57:24.

in the single market, stay in the customs union.

:57:25.:57:27.

Can I just say, in defence, of Nigel Farage, Nigel came off

:57:28.:57:35.

Now, our regular roundup of the political week

:57:36.:57:44.

A guardsman, Councillor, a queen and a cow.

:57:45.:58:04.

An innovative photocall for Reading's royal blue buses,

:58:05.:58:06.

the new fleet which runs on farm waste.

:58:07.:58:08.

More innovation and crowd funding campaigns to give every

:58:09.:58:11.

MP a copy of Brexit, what the hell happens now?

:58:12.:58:13.

If we are going to move ahead with this, we need to be careful.

:58:14.:58:18.

Perhaps Hampshire police could try crowd funding.

:58:19.:58:23.

PCC Michael Lane says they are 25% underfunded

:58:24.:58:25.

Current national formula with two thirds money is not fit

:58:26.:58:34.

more female scientists by using gender blind applications.

:58:35.:58:41.

Those hiring people won't see names on shortlists

:58:42.:58:43.

And a scheme to get more jobs for homeless people has been backed

:58:44.:58:48.

to do more after discovering one of his employees was sleeping rough.

:58:49.:58:59.

That's one practical thing that you could do.

:59:00.:59:04.

the people hiring don't know who's who.

:59:05.:59:12.

It would be interesting to see if it did.

:59:13.:59:15.

The evidence is it works in recruitment.

:59:16.:59:17.

If you don't know things about people, you're more likely

:59:18.:59:28.

The evidence is, for example, ethnic minority candidates are less

:59:29.:59:32.

likely to get them simply because people at the name.

:59:33.:59:35.

Some would say that a more fundamental problem and we should

:59:36.:59:37.

stop boys being given Lego at Christmas.

:59:38.:59:43.

I think irrespective of what people say, there is a difference for that

:59:44.:59:48.

I myself know in science female scientists, because I'm

:59:49.:59:51.

a biochemist, we approach work completely differently.

:59:52.:59:52.

The key issue is to respect individuality.

:59:53.:59:55.

Both of you, thank you very much for being on the programme this week.

:59:56.:00:03.

have to do this. Thank you to you both.

:00:04.:00:10.

What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?

:00:11.:00:20.

Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,

:00:21.:00:24.

Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's

:00:25.:00:36.

industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined

:00:37.:00:39.

by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.

:00:40.:00:47.

When you look at what has already been released in advance of the

:00:48.:00:54.

Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not

:00:55.:01:00.

really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of

:01:01.:01:04.

which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is

:01:05.:01:11.

among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be

:01:12.:01:15.

announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the

:01:16.:01:19.

preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch

:01:20.:01:23.

properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating

:01:24.:01:32.

117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?

:01:33.:01:38.

The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will

:01:39.:01:44.

be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical

:01:45.:01:47.

colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but

:01:48.:01:53.

we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under

:01:54.:01:57.

the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the

:01:58.:02:04.

basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.

:02:05.:02:08.

The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to

:02:09.:02:13.

devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with

:02:14.:02:19.

academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,

:02:20.:02:25.

the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its

:02:26.:02:30.

spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.

:02:31.:02:38.

And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of

:02:39.:02:43.

institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You

:02:44.:02:48.

have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow

:02:49.:02:52.

University there are further education colleges all over the

:02:53.:02:56.

country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But

:02:57.:03:05.

also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the

:03:06.:03:10.

good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already

:03:11.:03:15.

created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in

:03:16.:03:19.

what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the

:03:20.:03:24.

Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170

:03:25.:03:30.

million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is

:03:31.:03:35.

this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne

:03:36.:03:47.

did before? It's different because it is involving every single

:03:48.:03:48.

government department, and bringing together everything that government

:03:49.:03:51.

does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from

:03:52.:03:54.

the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They

:03:55.:04:00.

will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour

:04:01.:04:04.

government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors

:04:05.:04:09.

were broached under the coalition government. This is all about

:04:10.:04:13.

communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in

:04:14.:04:18.

terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already

:04:19.:04:24.

announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific

:04:25.:04:31.

technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,

:04:32.:04:35.

satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is

:04:36.:04:40.

nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some

:04:41.:04:45.

new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with

:04:46.:04:49.

industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until

:04:50.:04:55.

April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I

:04:56.:05:01.

have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the

:05:02.:05:06.

government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide

:05:07.:05:11.

the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it

:05:12.:05:16.

bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an

:05:17.:05:19.

amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all

:05:20.:05:24.

governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for

:05:25.:05:30.

technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in

:05:31.:05:38.

the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate

:05:39.:05:44.

some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor

:05:45.:05:49.

primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with

:05:50.:05:55.

business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the

:05:56.:06:00.

way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in

:06:01.:06:05.

science and research, which is the most significant increase in

:06:06.:06:09.

decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when

:06:10.:06:14.

the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for

:06:15.:06:17.

energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are

:06:18.:06:24.

doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money

:06:25.:06:29.

is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a

:06:30.:06:35.

particular technology is for the future. The government's chief

:06:36.:06:40.

scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in

:06:41.:06:45.

battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,

:06:46.:06:51.

and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will

:06:52.:06:57.

get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private

:06:58.:07:03.

sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various

:07:04.:07:10.

government departments at local authorities will hold this list to

:07:11.:07:15.

account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.

:07:16.:07:22.

Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the

:07:23.:07:29.

ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will

:07:30.:07:33.

say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about

:07:34.:07:38.

nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win

:07:39.:07:42.

in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will

:07:43.:07:46.

be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.

:07:47.:07:51.

Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the

:07:52.:07:55.

High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of

:07:56.:08:04.

toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's

:08:05.:08:09.

slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,

:08:10.:08:13.

but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says

:08:14.:08:20.

that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,

:08:21.:08:25.

that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the

:08:26.:08:30.

planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what

:08:31.:08:34.

they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that

:08:35.:08:39.

it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,

:08:40.:08:44.

because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane

:08:45.:08:49.

Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block

:08:50.:08:54.

it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for

:08:55.:08:58.

the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might

:08:59.:09:03.

delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch

:09:04.:09:09.

out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be

:09:10.:09:14.

another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line

:09:15.:09:19.

to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that

:09:20.:09:24.

there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval

:09:25.:09:29.

Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.

:09:30.:09:33.

But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call

:09:34.:09:46.

Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not

:09:47.:09:49.

want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in

:09:50.:09:53.

the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he

:09:54.:09:58.

dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected

:09:59.:10:09.

Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should

:10:10.:10:12.

capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red

:10:13.:10:17.

carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...

:10:18.:10:25.

Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we

:10:26.:10:29.

heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that

:10:30.:10:35.

has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think

:10:36.:10:38.

Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not

:10:39.:10:43.

even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an

:10:44.:10:51.

opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the

:10:52.:11:00.

punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely

:11:01.:11:06.

changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May

:11:07.:11:10.

has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has

:11:11.:11:16.

played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to

:11:17.:11:21.

Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge

:11:22.:11:27.

extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the

:11:28.:11:31.

world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting

:11:32.:11:35.

from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and

:11:36.:11:39.

they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget

:11:40.:11:45.

surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a

:11:46.:11:50.

massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.

:11:51.:11:56.

And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell

:11:57.:12:01.

interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European

:12:02.:12:06.

leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's

:12:07.:12:13.

very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to

:12:14.:12:18.

in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from

:12:19.:12:24.

Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was

:12:25.:12:29.

hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted

:12:30.:12:33.

to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron

:12:34.:12:39.

similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as

:12:40.:12:42.

Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would

:12:43.:12:49.

put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.

:12:50.:12:54.

Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May

:12:55.:12:59.

should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.

:13:00.:13:05.

That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald

:13:06.:13:12.

Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret

:13:13.:13:16.

Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.

:13:17.:13:24.

We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up

:13:25.:13:29.

on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,

:13:30.:13:31.

In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:32.:13:35.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:13:36.:14:13.

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

:14:14.:14:36.

Join Michael Buerk as he explores the dishes fit for kings and queens.

:14:37.:14:42.

When it comes to extravagance, few monarchs can compete with George IV.

:14:43.:14:46.

If that was for breakfast, I dread to think what he had for dinner.

:14:47.:14:50.

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