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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Shapps. Five years on from the financial | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Should the Welsh Government extend make | :01:06. | :01:16. | |
Should the Welsh Government extend the charge on carrier bags? | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
warned that benefit falls will be to homelessness and population ships. | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
What is the evidence? And as always, the political panel | :01:20. | :01:29. | |
that reaches the parts other shows can only dream of. Janan Ganesh, | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They'll be tweeting faster than England | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
loses wickets to Australia. Yes, they're really that fast. | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
First, some big news overnight from Geneva, where Iran has agreed to | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
curb some of its nuclear activities in return for the partial easing of | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
sanctions. Iran will pause the enrichment of uranium to weapons | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
grade and America will free up some funds for Iran to spend. May be up | :01:52. | :02:01. | |
to $10 billion. A more comprehensive deal is supposed to be done in six | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
months. Here's what President Obama had to say about this interim | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
agreement. We have pursued intensive diplomacy, bilaterally with the | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Iranians, and together with our partners, the United Kingdom, | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
France, Germany, Russia and China, as well as the European Union. | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
Today, that diplomacy opened up a new path towards a world that is | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
more secure, a future in which we can verify that Iraq and's nuclear | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
programme is peaceful, and that it cannot build a nuclear weapon. | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
President Obama spoke from the White House last night. Now the difficulty | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
begins. This is meant to lead to a full-scale agreement which will | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
effectively end all sanctions, and end Iran's ability to have a bomb. | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
The early signs are pretty good. The Iranian currency strengthened | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
overnight, which is exactly what the Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
is 40%, so they need a stronger currency. -- information in Iran. | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
France has played a blinder. It was there intransigence that led to | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
this. Otherwise, I think the West would have led to a much softer | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
deal. The question now becomes implementation. Here, everything | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
hinges on two questions. First, who is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
Iranians Gorbachev, a serious reformer, or he's here much more | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
tactical and cynical figure? Or, within Iran, how powerful is he? | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
There are military men and intelligence officials within Iran | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
who may stymie the process. The Western media concentrate on the | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
fact that Mr Netanyahu and the Israelis are not happy about this. | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
They don't often mention that the Arab Gulf states are also very | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
apprehensive about this deal. I read this morning that the enemies of | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king. -- the MAs row. That is the key | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
thing to watch in the next couple of weeks. There was a response from | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
Saudi Arabia, but it came from the Prime Minister of Israel, who said | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
this was a historic mistake. The United States said there would be no | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
enrichment of uranium to weapons grade. In the last few minutes, the | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted to say that there is an inalienable | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
right -- right to enrich. The key thing is the most important thing | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
that President Obama said in his inaugural speech. He reached out to | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
Iran. It failed under President McKenna jab. Under President | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
Rouhani, there seems to be progress. There is potentially now what he | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
talked about in that first inaugural address potentially coming through. | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
In the end, the key issue - and we don't know the answer - is the | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
supreme leader, not the president. Will the supreme leader agreed to | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
Iran giving up its ability to create nuclear weapons? This is the huge | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei authorise the position that | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
President Rouhani took to Geneva. That doesn't mean he will sign off | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
on every bit of implementation over the next six months. Even when | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
President Ahmadinejad was president, he wasn't really President. We in | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
the West have to resort to a kind of Iranians version of the study of the | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Kremlin, to work out what is going on. And the problem the president | :05:57. | :06:08. | |
faces is that if there is any sign... He can unlock these funds by | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
executive order at the moment, but if he needs any more, he has to go | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
to Congress. Both the Democrat and the Republican side have huge | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
scepticism about this. And he has very low credibility now. There's | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
already been angry noises coming from quite a lot of senators. It was | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
quite strange to see that photo of John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
if they had survived a ship great together. John Kerry is clearly | :06:40. | :06:49. | |
feeling very happy. We will keep an eye on this. It is a fascinating | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
development. More lurid details about the | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
personal life of the Co-op Bank's disgraced former chairman, the | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
Reverend Paul Flowers. The links between Labour, the bank and the | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
wider Co-op movement have caused big problems for Ed Miliband this week, | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
and the Conservatives have been revelling in it. But do the Tory | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
allegations - Ed Miliband calls them "smears" - stack up? Party Chairman | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield. Welcome to the programme. When it | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
comes to the Co-op, what are you accusing Labour of knowing and when? | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
I think the simple thing to say here is that the Co-op is an important | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
bank. They have obviously got into difficulty with Reverend flowers, | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
and our primary concern is making sure that that is properly | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
investigated, and that we understand what happened at the bank and how | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
somebody like Paul Flowers could have ended up thing appointed | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband on Tuesday and asked him what he | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed Miliband. But by Prime Minister's | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
Questions on Wednesday, David Cameron claims that you knew that | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
Labour knew about his past all along. What is the evidence for | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
that? We found out by Wednesday that he had been a Labour councillor, | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
Reverend Flowers, and had been made to stand down. Certainly, Labour | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
knew about that, but somehow didn't seem to think that that made him | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
less appropriate to be the chairman of the Co-op bank. There was no | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr Balls knew about that. I ask you | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
again, what are you accusing the Labour leadership of knowing? We | :08:45. | :08:55. | |
know now that he stood down for very inappropriate images on his | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
computer, apparently. You are telling me that they didn't know. I | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
am not sure that is clear at all. I have heard conflicting reports. | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
There is a much bigger argument about what they knew and when. There | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
was a much bigger issue here. This morning, Ed Miliband has said that | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
they don't have to answer these questions and that these smears. | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
This is ludicrous. These are important questions about an | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
important bank, how it ended up getting into this position, and how | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
a disastrous Britannia -- Italia deal happen. -- Britannia deal | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
happened. And we need to know how the bank came off the rails. To be | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
accused of smears for asking the questions is ridiculous. I am just | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
trying to find out what you are accusing Labour of. You saying that | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
the Labour leadership knew about the drug-taking? Sorry, there was some | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
noise here. I don't know what was known and when. We do know that | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Labour, the party, certainly knew about these very difficult | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
circumstances in which he resigned as a councillor. I think that the | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
Labour Party knew about it. We knew that Bradford did, but not London. | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew about the inappropriate material on | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
the Reverend's laptop? It is certainly the case that Labour knew | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
about it. But did Mr Miliband know about it, and his predilection for | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
rent boys? He will need to answer those questions. It is quite proper | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
to ask those questions. Surely, asking a perfectly legitimate set of | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
questions, not just about that but about how we have ended up in a | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
situation where this bank has made loans to Labour for millions of | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
pounds, that bank and the Unite bank, who is connected to it. And | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
how they made a ?50,000 donation to Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
was nothing to do with Reverend Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
said that he personally signed that off. Lots of questions to answer. | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
David Cameron has already answered them on Wednesday. He said that you | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
now know that Labour knew about his past all along. You have not been | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
able to present evidence that involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
that. So until you get that, surely you should apologise? Hang on. He | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
said that Labour knew about this, and they did, because he stood down | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
as a councillor. If Ed Miliband didn't know about that, then why | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
not? This was quite a serious thing that happened. The wider point is | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
about why it is that when you ask perfectly legitimate questions about | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
this bank, about the Britannia deal, and about the background of Mr | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
flowers, why is the response, it is all smears? There are questions | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
about how Labour failed to deal with the deficit and how it hasn't done | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
anything to support the welfare changes, but there is nothing about | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
that. Let us -- lets: To the wider picture of the Co-operative Bank. | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
Labour wanted the Co-op to take over the Britannia Building Society, and | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
it was a disaster. Do you accept that? The government of the day has | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
to be a part of these discussions for regulatory reason. The | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
government in 2009 - Ed Balls was very pleased... But you supported | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
that decision. There was a later deal, potentially, for the Co-op to | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
buy those Lloyds branches. There was a proper process and it didn't go | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
through just recently. If there had been a proper process back in 2009, | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
would the Britannia deal have gone through? First, you accept that the | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
Tories were in favour of the Britannia take over. Then your | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
Chancellor Osborne went out of his way to facilitate the purchase of | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
the Lloyds branches, even though you had no idea that the Co-op had the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
management expertise to become a super medium. Correct? The | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
difference is that that deal didn't go through. There was a proper | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
process that took place. Let's look at the process. There was long | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
indications as far back as January 2012 that the Co-op, as a direct | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
result of the Britannia take over which you will party supported, was | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
unfit to acquire the Lloyds branches. By January 2012, the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
Chancellor and the Treasury ignored the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
was political pressure for the Britannia to be brought together. | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Based on the information available, this was supported, but that process | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
ended up with a very, very problematic takeover of the | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
Britannia. Wind forward to this year, and when the same types of | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
issues were being looked at for the purchase of the Lloyds deal, the | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
proper process was followed, this time with us in government, and that | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
purchase didn't go through. It is important that the proper process is | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
followed, and when it was, it transpired that the deal wasn't | :14:41. | :14:50. | |
going to be done. But it was the Treasury and the Chancellor who were | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
the cheerleaders for the acquisition of the Lloyds branches. But there | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
was a warning that the Co-op did not have enough capital on its balance | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
sheet to make those acquisitions, but instead of heeding those | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
warnings, your people went to Brussels to lobby for the | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
requirements to be relaxed - why on earth did you do that? Our | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
Chancellor went to argue for all of Rajesh banking, not specifically for | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
the Co-op. He was arguing for the mutuals to be given a special | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
ruling. The idea was to make sure that every bank in Britain could | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
have a better deal, particularly the mutuals, as you say. That is a | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
proper thing for the Chancellor to be doing. We could go round in | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
circles here, but in the end, there was not a takeover of the Lloyds | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
branches, that is because we followed a proper process. Had that | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
same rigorous process been followed in 2009, the legitimate question to | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
ask is whether the Co-op would have been -- would have taken over the | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
Britannia. That is a proper question to ask. It is no good to have the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
leader of the opposition say, as soon as you ask any of these | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
questions about anything where there is a problem for them, they come | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
back with, oh, this is all smears. There are questions to ask about | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
what the Labour government did, the debt and the deficit they left the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
country with, the way they stopped work from paying in this country. | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
The big question your government has two answer is, why, by July 2012, | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
when it was clear there was a black hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
your government re-confirmed the Co-op as the preferred bidder for | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
Lloyds - why would you do that? Well, look, the good thing is, we | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
can discuss this until the cows come home, but there is going to be a | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
proper, full investigation, so we will find out what happened, all the | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
way back. So, we will be able to get to the bottom of all of this. Grant | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds deal did not go ahead was, despite | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
the Treasury cheerleading, when Lloyds began its due diligence, it | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
found that there was indeed a huge black hole in the balance sheet and | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
that the Co-op was not fit to take over its branches. That wasn't you, | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
it wasn't the Government, it was not the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
were still cheerleading for the deal to go ahead... Well, as I say, a | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
proper process was followed, which did not result in the purchase of | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
the Lloyds branches. At that proper process been followed with the | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
purchase of the Britannia, under the previous government... Which you | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
supported. Yes, but it may well be that under that previous deal, there | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
was a excess political pressure perhaps put on in order to create | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
that merger, which proved so disastrous. The Tories facilitated | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to go ahead. I have said, we are going | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
to have a proper, independent review. What I cannot understand is, | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
when you announce a robber, independent review, the response you | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
get to these serious questions. The response is, oh, this is a smear. It | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
is crazy. We are trying to answer the big questions for this country. | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
We have done all of that, and we are out of time. The Reverend Flowers' | :18:17. | :18:25. | |
chairmanship of the Co-op bank was approved by the regulator at the | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
time, which no longer exists. It was swept away by the coalition | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
government in a supposed revolution in regulation. But will its | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
replacement, the Financial Conduct Authority, be different? Adam has | :18:37. | :18:47. | |
been to find out. Come with me for a spin around the Square mile to find | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
out how we regulate our financial sector, which is almost five times | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
bigger than the country's entire annual income. First, let's pick up | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
our guide, journalist Iain Martin, who has just written a book about | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
what went so wrong during the financial crisis. The FSA was an | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
agency which was established to supervise the banks on a day-to-day | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
basis. The Bank of England was supposed to have overall responsible | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
at for this to Bolivia the financial system and the Treasury was supposed | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
to take an interest in all of these things. The disaster was that it was | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
not anyone's call responsibility, or main day job, to stay alert as to | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
whether or not the banking system as a whole was being run in a safe | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
manner. And so this April, a new system was set up to police the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
City. Most of the responsibly delays here, with the Bank of England, and | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
its new Prudential Regulation Authority. And the Financial | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Services Authority has been replaced with the new Financial Conduct | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
Authority. Can we go to the financial conduct authority, please? | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is all about whether the people in | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
financial services are playing by the rules, in particular, how they | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
treat their customers. This place has got new powers, like the ability | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
to ban products it does not like, a new mandate to promote competition | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
in the market, the concept being, more competition means a better | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
market, plus the idea that a new organisation rings a whole new | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
culture. Although these are the old offices of the FSA, so maybe not | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
quite so new after all. It has also inherited the case of the Co-op bank | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
and its disgraced former chairman the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
will be part of the investigation into what happened, which will | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
probably involve looking at its own conduct. One member of the | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
Parliamentary commission into banking wonders whether the new | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
regulator, and its new boss, are up to it. I have always said, it is not | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
the architecture which is the issue, it is the powers that the regulator | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
has, and today, it does not seem to me as if there is any increase in | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
that. And with the unfolding scandal at the Co-op, it feels like the new | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
architecture for regulating the City is now facing its first big test. | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
And the chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority, the | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now. Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
failure of bank regulation was one of the clearest lessons of the crash | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
in 2008, and yet two years later, in 2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
become chairman of the Co-op - why have we still not got the regulation | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
right? We have made a lot of changes since then. We have created a new | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
regulator, as you know. At the time, we still had a process which allowed | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
somebody to be appointed to a bank and they would go through a | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
challenge, but in the case of Paul Flowers, there was no need for an | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
additional challenge when he was appointed to chairman, because he | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
was already on the board. But going from being on the board to becoming | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
chairman, that is a big jump, and he only had one interview? That is why | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
today, it would be different. But the truth is, that was the system at | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
the time, the system which the FSA operated. He was challenged, we did | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
challenge him, and we said, you do not have the right experience, but | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
at the time, we would not have opposed the appointment. What we | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
needed was additional representation of the board of people who did have | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
banking experience. You can say that that was then and this is now, but | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
up until April of this year, it was still the plan for the Co-op, under | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
Mr Flowers, and despite being seriously wounded by the Britannia | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds branches. That was the Co-op's | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
plan. They needed to pass our test as to whether we thought they were | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
fit to do that, and frankly, they never passed that test. It was not | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
the regulator that stopped them? It was. We were constantly pushing | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
back, saying, you have not got the capital, you have no got the | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
systems, and ultimately, they withdrew, when they could not answer | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
our questions. You were asking the right questions, I accept that, but | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
all of the time, the politicians on all sides, they were pushing for it | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
to happen, and I cannot find anywhere where the regulator said, | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
look, this is just not going to happen. I cannot comment on what the | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
politicians were doing, but I continue what we were doing, which | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
was constantly asking the Co-op, have you got the systems in place, | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
have you got the people, have you got the capital? And they didn't. | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
But it only came to a head when Lloyds started its own due diligence | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
on the bank, and they discovered that it was impossible for them to | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
take over the branches, it was not the regulator... In fairness, what | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
we do is ask the questions, can you do this deal? And we kept pushing | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
back, and we never frankly got delivered a business plan which we | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
were happy to approve. Is the SCA going to launch its own inquiry into | :24:12. | :24:23. | |
what happened? -- the FCA. The Chancellor has announced what will | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
be a very broad inquiry. There are a number of specifics which we will be | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
able to look at, relating to events over the last five years. Could | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
there be a police investigation? I think the police have already | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
announced an investigation. I am talking about into the handling of | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
the bank. It depends. There might be, if there is grim low activity, | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
which we do not know yet. You worked at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. | :24:52. | :25:00. | |
Some of those people who were signed off on the speedy promotion of Mr | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
Flowers, are they now working there? Yes, we have some. I came to | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
join the Financial Services Authority, to lead it into the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
creation of the new body, the SCA. We had people who were challenging | :25:14. | :25:26. | |
and they did the job. There was not a requirement to approve the role as | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
chairman. There was not even a requirement to interview at that | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
stage. What we did do was to require that he was interviewed, and that | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
the Co-op should get additional experience. One of the people from | :25:38. | :25:50. | |
the old organisation, who signed up on the promotion of Mr Flowers to | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
become chairman is now a nonexecutive director of the Co-op, | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
so how does that work? Welcome he was a senior adviser to our | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
organisation, one of the people who made the challenges, and who said, | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
you need more experience on your board. Subsequently he then went and | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
joined the board. Surely that should not be allowed, the regulator and | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
the regulated should not be like that. Well clearly, you need | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
protection, but we have got to get good people in, and frankly, we want | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
the industry to have good people in the industry, so there will be some | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
movement between the regulator and industry. We all wonder whether you | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
have the power or even the confidence to stand up if you look | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
at all of the really bad bank decisions recently, politicians were | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
behind them. It was Gordon Brown who pushed the disastrous merger of | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond who egged on RBS to buy the world. | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
All three main parties wanted the Co-op to buy Britannia, even though | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
they did not know the debt it would inherit, and all three wanted the | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches - how do you as a regulator stand up | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
to that little concert party? Well, that political pressure exists, our | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
job at the end of the day is to do a relatively technical job and say, | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
does it stack up? And it didn't, and we made that point time and time | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
again to the Co-op board. They did not have a business case that we | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
could approve. The bodies on left and right -- the politicians on left | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
and right gave the Co-op special support. They may have done, but | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
that was not you have made a warning about these payday lenders, but I | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
think what most people would like to see is a limit put on the interest | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
they can charge over a period of time - will you do that? We have got | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
a whole set of powers for payday lenders. We will bring in some | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
changes from April next year, and we will bring in further changes as we | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
see necessary. Will you put a limit on the interest they can charge? | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
That is something we can study. You do not sound too keen on it? Well, | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
there are a lot of changes we need to make. One change is limiting | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
rollovers, limiting the use of continuous payment authorities. | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
Simply jumping to one trigger would be a mistake. Finally, an issue | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
which I think is becoming a growing concern, because the Government is | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
thinking of subsidising them, 95% mortgages are back - should we not | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
be worried about that? I think we should if the market has the same | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
experiences that we had back in 2007 - oh wait. We are bringing a | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
comprehensive package in under our mortgage market review, which will | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
change how people lend and will put affordability back at the heart of | :28:43. | :28:53. | |
lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You have not had your first big | :28:54. | :28:55. | |
challenge yet, have you? We have many challenges. | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
It was once called the battle of the mods and the rockers - the fight | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
between David Cameron-style modernisers and old-style | :29:07. | :29:08. | |
traditional Tories for the direction and soul of the Conservative Party. | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
But have the mods given up on changing the brand? When David | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
Cameron took over in 2005, he promoted himself as a new Tory | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
leader. He said that hoodies need more love. He was talking about | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
something called the big society. He told his party conference that it | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
was time to that sunshine win the day. There was new emphasis on the | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
environment, and an eye-catching trip to a Norwegian glacier to see | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
first-hand, supposedly, the effects of global warming. This week, party | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
modernise and Nick bone has said that the party is still seen as an | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
old-fashioned monolith and hasn't done enough to improve its appeal. | :29:53. | :30:00. | |
The Tories have put some reforms into practice, such as gay marriage, | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
but they have put more into welfare reform band compassionate | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
conservatism. David Cameron wants talked about leading the greenest | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
government ever. Downing Street says that the quote in the Son is not | :30:17. | :30:25. | |
recognised, get rid of the green crap. At this point in the programme | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
we were expecting to hear from the Energy and Climate Change Minister, | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has pulled out, with Downing Street | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
saying it's for ""family reasons"". Make of that what you will. However, | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
we won't be deterred. We're still doing the story, and we're joined by | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
our very own mod and rocker - David Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
and Conservative MP Peter Bone. Welcome to you both. I'm glad your | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
family is allowed you to come? David Skelton, getting rid of all the | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
green crap, or words to that effect, that David Cameron has been saying. | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
It is just a sign that Tory modernisation has been quietly | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
buried. I do think that's right. Modernisation is about reaching out | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
to the voters, and the work to do that is now more relevant than ever. | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
We got the biggest swing since 1931, and the thing is we need to do more | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
to reach out to voters in the North. We need to reach out to non-white | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
voters, and show that the concerns of modern Britain and the concerns | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
of ordinary people is something that we share. And what way will racking | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
up electricity bills with green levies get you more votes in the | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
North of England? We have to look at ways to reduce energy bills. The | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
renewable energy directive doesn't do anything to help cut our | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
emissions, but does decrease energy bills by ?45 a year. We should | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
renegotiate that. That is a part of modernisation and doing what | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
ordinarily people want. And old dinosaurs like you are just holding | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
this modernisation process back? I am very appreciative of covering on | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
this programme. The Tory party has been reforming itself for more than | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
150 years. This idea of modern eyes a is just some invention. We are | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
changing all the time. I'm nice and cuddly! So you are happy that the | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
party made gay marriage almost a kind of symbol of its modernisation? | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free vote. David Cameron was recorded as | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
a rebel there because more Tories voted against his position than ever | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
before. It was said that this was a split between the old and young, but | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
it actually was a split between those who were religious and | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
nonreligious. It is a misinterpretation of what happened. | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
Is a modernisation in retreat? I think modernisation is an | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
invention. Seven years ago, in my part of the world, we got three | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
councillors elected, two were 80 and one was 21. A few months ago, a | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
25-year-old was chosen to fight Corby for the Conservative Party. He | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
came from a comprehensive School. He was one of the youngest. The Tory | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
party is moving on. So you found three young people? Hang on a | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
minute. You can't get away with that. Three in one batch. Does | :33:39. | :33:47. | |
modernisation exist? Modernisation is about watering our appeal and | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
sharing our values are relevant to voters who haven't really thought | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
about voting for us for decades now. Modernisation is about more than | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
windmills and stuff, it is about boosting the life chances of the | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
poorest, it is about putting better schools in poorer areas. It is also | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
saying that modernisation and the Tory party... When has the Tory | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
party been against making poorer people better off? Or against better | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher was a moderniser when she won all | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
those elections? The problem we have at the moment is that UKIP has | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
grown-up. If we could get all of those people who vote UKIP to vote | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
for us, we would get 47% of the vote. We don't need to worry about | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
voters on the left. We need to worry about the voters in the north, those | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
people who haven't voted for us for decades. Having an EU Referendum | :34:45. | :34:53. | |
Bill is going to get people to vote. We have to reach out to | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
voters, but not by some sort of London based in need. You have to | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
broaden your base. I agree with you on that. We have to broaden our | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
appeal, but this back to the future concept is not going to work. We | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
need something that generally appeals to low and middle-income | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
voters, and something that shows we genuinely care about the life | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration. | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
We don't have an EU Referendum Bill stop we have to get the centre right | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
to vote for us again. Do that, and we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25 | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
euros, will be returned in Corby because we cannot win an election | :35:47. | :35:59. | |
there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether you are moderniser or | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
traditionalist, people, particularly in the North, see you as a bunch of | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
rich men. And rich southerners. You are bunch of rich southerners. We | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
need to do more to show that we are building on lifting the poorest out | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
of the tax. We need to build more houses. There is a perception that | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
the leadership at the moment is rich, and public school educated. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
What we have to do is get more people from state education into the | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
top. You are going the other way at the moment. That is a fair | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
criticism. Modernisers also say that. I went to a combo hedge of | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
school as well. -- do a comprehensive school. We need to | :36:56. | :36:57. | |
show that we are standing up for low income. Thank Q, both of you. You | :36:58. | :37:07. | |
are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just under | :37:08. | :37:19. | |
Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales. Should the Welsh Government | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
extend the five pence charge on plastic bags to cover bags-for-life | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
at supermarkets? And as Alex Salmond prepares to | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
unveil his administration's detailed plans for Scotland to leave the UK, | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
Carwyn Jones has been in the Scottish media headlines. | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
Joining me throughout today's programme are two AMs - Plaid | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
Cymru's Jocelyn Davies and Labour's Mike Hedges. | :37:42. | :37:51. | |
We will begin with The Independent police Commission report. It will | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
suggest that neighbourhood policing is under threat. If you speak to the | :37:54. | :38:10. | |
public, that is what they want. They want to see police officers on the | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
beat. Whether that is sustainable remains to be seen. People always | :38:18. | :38:29. | |
want policemen on the beat. They now have police community support | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
officers funded by the Welsh Government. They are immensely | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
popular in my constituency. They meet people. The show front line | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
policing to the public. Are you happy that they are able to bridge a | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
gap in Wales? They do not have the full powers of a police officer but | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
they are out on the street giving people comfort. They look like | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
police officers. They appear to be in the U of police officers. I have | :39:07. | :39:18. | |
written in favour of devolution of policing. | :39:19. | :39:27. | |
It's widely been seen as a success but should the five pence charge on | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
carrier bags be extended to cover bags for life you can buy in the | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
supermarket? The Welsh Government's looking at the idea, but the | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
retailers aren't happy. They say charging for bags for life would be | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
perverse. Tomos Livingstone has been doing some early Christmas shopping. | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
Christmas is coming and everyone is stocking up on cheap. In Cardiff | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
people are used to paying five pence for a carrier bag. But should we be | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
paying a charge for bags for life? The plastic bag charge has been a | :39:59. | :40:06. | |
success. The number of bags used has fallen to magically. But now Welsh | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
ministers want to see if they can do more to drive down the number of | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
bags being used further and make sure more money goes to | :40:17. | :40:26. | |
environmental charities. What we are doing in the White Paper is saying | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
we want to change the way we manage our natural resources in Wales. We | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
want to see a more coherent way of doing things across the whole | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
country. We want to manage our waste better. As part of managing our | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
waste we want to have the powers to enable us to make additional charges | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
where they are necessary. But the supermarkets are not happy. They say | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
extending the charge to cover bags for life sends out the wrong | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
message. The Welsh retail Consortium does not support extending the | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
charges to reusable carrier bags or bags for life. We are trying to | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
encourage customers to reuse the carrier bags and we are doing that | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
by placing a charge on single use carrier bag. It seems perverse to | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
penalise people for using reusable Yanks. Northern Ireland also charges | :41:22. | :41:36. | |
for plastic bags. Scotland is at the its own charge next year. In England | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
the plan is for a 5p charge after the general election but only in | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
larger shops and supermarkets. In Wales the main opposition party | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
thinks we should leave it at that. I would like to see a light touch when | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
it comes to legislation or regulation. It is about striking a | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
balance to what is a sensible compromise. It is a modest sum of | :42:02. | :42:15. | |
money and that is making an impact. If it is seen as a penalty people | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
will resent it. The Welsh Government's plans are out to | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
consultation until the New Year. The 5p charge was introduced without | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
much resistance. Ministers say they do not want to pick a charge -- do | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
not want to pick a fight with supermarket. | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
Alan Davies says he does not want to pick a fight with supermarkets. He | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
already has. The 5p charge has worked well. 81% reduction in | :42:58. | :43:07. | |
supermarkets is the figure quoted by the Government. In England earlier | :43:08. | :43:17. | |
in the year is for life were being given away free. If that was brought | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
in two wheels you would have the same position with bags for life as | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
you have with single use carrier bags. What do you think about it? | :43:28. | :43:51. | |
The idea of the bag for life as you pay that charge and the retailer | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
replaces it free of charge. Reduced ill have two a 5p every time you | :43:56. | :44:04. | |
replace your bag. What is the point of the policy? The Jews waste says | :44:05. | :44:28. | |
minister. -- Reduce waste says the Minister. | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
People will adapt very quickly to it. This policy was a headline | :44:37. | :44:47. | |
grabber. This policy was a success. Are they | :44:48. | :44:57. | |
taking it too far? If supermarkets decided to give away bags for life | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
that means they turn into bags that can be thrown away. The attitude | :45:03. | :45:13. | |
change has already happened if people get axed three eight will use | :45:14. | :45:30. | |
them for refugees. -- if people get carrier bags for three they will use | :45:31. | :45:45. | |
them for refuse. With this policy it will not change behaviour. | :45:46. | :46:00. | |
It is a levy on a plastic bags. Companies are encouraged to give | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
that money to environmental causes. Has that been a success? It is | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
difficult to monitor. We do not know how much has been collected and what | :46:15. | :46:25. | |
organisations have benefited. That is one part of the introduction of | :46:26. | :46:34. | |
this levy which has not been clear. The Welsh Government does not get a | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
penny. But we do not know where the money is going. It is not a tax. It | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
is money that is going to good causes. I do know that one or two | :46:49. | :46:57. | |
organisations have done well out of it. | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
It's not often the Welsh First Minister makes it on to the front | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
page of The Scotsman or The Glasgow Herald, but his intervention in the | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
Independence Referendum debate earlier this week hit the headlines. | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
In a speech in Edinburgh, Carwyn Jones poured cold water on SNP plans | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
for an independent Scotland to use the pound - a key point in the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
referendum campaign. Well, our political reporter James Williams | :47:19. | :47:20. | |
was there listening to that speech and joins us from the Scottish | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
capital. Carwyn Jones made a splash. | :47:23. | :47:34. | |
Carwyn Jones came to Scotland Re: the silk Commission on devolution of | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
powers. He said that evolution can work within the United Kingdom. He | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
said there is no need to vote for independence. But what hit the | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
headlines, as you can see in the Scotsman, was his opposition to the | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
SNP plans for an independent Scotland to join a currency union | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
with the rest of the UK stop if one part of the currency union decides | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
to leave. If an independent nation wants to join it is a matter for | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
Wales, Northern Ireland, and England. I would want to have a say | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
in that. It is unlikely that currency union with a strong fiscal | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
controls would work. They would be too much uncertainty. It would slow | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
down decision-making. The risk to us and northern Ireland would be | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
greater. It is in the interest of the rest of the UK to retain the | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
currency. It makes for a straightforward trading relationship | :48:46. | :48:47. | |
which already exists between Scotland and the rest of the UK stop | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
it makes practical economic sense. That was the SNP's John Swinney. The | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
SNP has admitted that they do not have an alternative plan for the | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
currency. The Better Together campaign has jumped on that. There | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
has been a string of negative stories in the press questioning the | :49:12. | :49:19. | |
idea of currency union. Carwyn Jones is just one voice in | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
that debate. That's the is a senior elected politician and he is the | :49:26. | :49:35. | |
leader of another devolved nation. Messages like that from England may | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
be regarded as unexpected that are relatively easily dispersed at least | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
by those who do not feel much regard for British politics. But when the | :49:47. | :49:55. | |
message comes from Wales, a country that in some sense has had the same | :49:56. | :50:03. | |
journey as Scotland, it has more resonant. | :50:04. | :50:14. | |
He makes the point about the intervention of Carwyn Jones. He | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
will not be the only Welsh politician making an intervention. | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
There was strong opposition from some quarters in Wales about Carwyn | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
Jones coming to Scotland and making the point about Scottish | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
independence. I predict to Plaid Cymru this | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
morning. With their leader be coming to Scotland to make an | :50:40. | :50:50. | |
intervention? They said no. It will be interesting to see if Carwyn | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
Jones makes any further interventions. | :50:53. | :51:05. | |
On Tuesday the Scottish Government is going to publish a white paper. | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
They have suggested that Scotland could go independent on a certain | :51:10. | :51:21. | |
date. Yes they say the 24th of March 2016 would be the date. They will | :51:22. | :51:39. | |
issue a blueprint. Now it is incumbent on their No campaign. | :51:40. | :51:52. | |
Thank you very much. Jocelyn Davies, interesting that the | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
leader of Plaid Cymru will not be going up there will you? If I get | :52:00. | :52:08. | |
the opportunity I think I will. I think it would be fun to go. | :52:09. | :52:16. | |
Agreement has broken out on these seats. I think there will be at thy | :52:17. | :52:24. | |
vengeance. I would go up for the opposite reason. I would be | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
campaigning for Scotland to stay part of the UK. Is it any of your | :52:32. | :52:39. | |
business though? It is. Any path-breaking away will have an | :52:40. | :52:50. | |
effect on the other parts. I will be trying to do the best for Scotland. | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
Only the Scottish people will get a full but other people will be | :52:55. | :53:03. | |
interested. Carmen Jones made the point about reform. He gave a gift | :53:04. | :53:13. | |
to the yes campaigners seeing if you stay in the union the unfair | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
advantage that you have had over your funding will end. Barnett | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
reform in Scotland means less money. Yes. He knows that will have | :53:25. | :53:34. | |
an impact if they stay in the union. If I was a photo in Scotland I would | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
be thinking, stay in, and we could be worse off. What do you make of | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
the fact that the leader of Plaid Cymru will not be travelling up | :53:49. | :53:57. | |
there? I am surprised. I would have thought that Welsh politicians would | :53:58. | :54:10. | |
be giving their view. Clearly her view is similar to | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
yours. Why was she not go up there? I have no idea. I can assure you she | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
will be hoping for I guess thought in that referendum. | :54:26. | :54:35. | |
There is something on the front of The Papers almost every day and | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
there is ten months to go. This will be a long can aim. Dear are 30% that | :54:40. | :54:51. | |
say they want independence, 24% are against. There will be a big fight | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
for those people who are not quite sure and those that would currently | :54:58. | :55:06. | |
support maximum devolution. At the moment in Wales 10% of people | :55:07. | :55:15. | |
would support independent. I would expect that number to go down. You | :55:16. | :55:25. | |
cannot keep someone else's currency. When Czechoslovakia split up they | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
had separate currencies which they pegged to each other and three | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
months later they started diverging. This pound debate, is | :55:40. | :55:51. | |
this the UK Government playing hardball? Is there any reason | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
Scotland cannot the pound? I do not think there is. If the Scottish | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
people want to keep the pound I think the UK Government will find a | :56:06. | :56:13. | |
way around it. What are your feelings about how things will go? | :56:14. | :56:21. | |
The current opinion polls show that 25% of people would vote no and that | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
yes group is the biggest group. It is the maximum devolution group that | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
is the biggest group. I think Scotland will vote against it | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
because it is in the best interest of Scotland. The value of your | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
currency depends on your economic policy. How can you have too | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
economic policies affecting the value of your currency? If it enters | :56:47. | :56:57. | |
you that it will have to have the brutal. If you share a left to go to | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
Scotland you will have ID to talk about. | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
Time to look at some of the stories of the week. | :57:08. | :57:19. | |
The Plaid Cymru MP who chaired the enquiry has led to stocking being a | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
specific offence warns that the new laws were not being applied. | :57:23. | :57:33. | |
The education minister said that The Independent review into higher | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
education will not be ready until 2016. He denied he is relaying it so | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
we will not have to tell the electorate what all seekers. | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
The Treasury said the Welsh Government will not be able to vary | :57:50. | :58:01. | |
individual tax bands. MPs congratulated Dr Who on its 50th | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
anniversary. The peer of you sit on the Finance | :58:07. | :58:25. | |
Committee. We have heard of the decision to set up a Commission to | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
look at all aspects of higher education particularly funding. The | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
Finance Committee is conducting its own enquiry we are. The enquiry is | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
going well. We will report before the next election. I support the | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
policy of the Welsh Government at the moment. I would never have gone | :58:48. | :59:00. | |
if I had had to pay fees of ?9,000. The opportunity I had should be | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
available to others. I am sure many students feel like that that is not | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
an admission that it is unaffordable. Anything is | :59:09. | :59:18. | |
affordable. You decide how to spend. What do you make of this | :59:19. | :59:32. | |
decision? It cannot inform the manifesto 's leading up to the | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
election. It seems a very long time to be looking at something. It does | :59:38. | :59:58. | |
appear. In Scotland students are funded to go to universities in | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
Scotland. Is that one way of dealing with it? That is Scottish funding | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
for Scottish universities rather than Scottish funding for Scottish | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
student we could switch from funding than Scottish funding for Scottish | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
will be returning to this one. Thank you. | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the | :00:38. | :00:47. | |
dispatch box. Let's have a look. We have had some interesting | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty, | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
the former Labour security minister, saying that the public are | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
desperate for a PM in waiting who speaks for them, not a Leader of the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
Opposition in dodging in partisan Westminster Village knock about. So | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
I would stay up with the tweets if you want to get on the right side of | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
this one! We are working on how the Prime Minister managed to get that | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
wheat in the first place. What did you think when you saw it being read | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
out? I was certainly watching the Daily Politics. I almost fell off my | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
chair! It was quite astonishing. He didn't answer the question - he | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
didn't do that the whole time. But I stand by what the tweets said. I | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
have tweeted for a long time on PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
Miliband to the hilt, but no one announces that in Parliament! | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
Because the Prime Minister picked up on what you said, it unleashed some | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things. | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this | :03:12. | :03:21. | |
great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister. | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that. I'm | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
just talking about the monster you have unleashed! I hope it dies a | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
miserable death. I think Tony is a good analysis -- a good analyst of | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, | :03:53. | :04:04. | |
white you? I was a Co-op party member. There are two issues here | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
about the Co-op and the Labour Party. All the new music suggests | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
that the Co-op will now have to start pulling back from lending or | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
donating to the Labour Party, which, at a time when Mr Miliband is going | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
through changes that are going to cut of the union funds, it seems | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
quite dangerous. There are three things going on. There's the | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
relationship that the party has politically with the Co-op party, | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
speculation in the papers today. At the core, the relationship between | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it | :05:48. | :05:57. | |
is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
to a hedge fund, I think I read. Yes, there is a move from the | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
mutualism of the Co-op. But don't confuse the Co-op bank with the | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4 | :06:24. | :06:36. | |
million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
could be real financial difficulties here. The government needs to be | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the | :07:18. | :07:26. | |
problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover. | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to outdo Labour in being more | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
pro-Co-op. There was nobody in Westminster saying, hold on, this | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
doesn't work. It is like the financial bubble all over again. | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
Everyone was in favour of that at the time. I think there is no | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
evidence so far that the storm is cutting through to the average | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I would let it die a natural death. I | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
would not write to an editorial column for a national newspaper on a | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
Sunday. That keeps the issue alive, and it makes him look oversensitive | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
and much better at dishing it out than taking it. I agree about that. | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
The Labour press team tweeted this week saying that it was a new low | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
for the times. And this was re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
a great press attitude. It is very Moni. Bill Clinton went out there | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
and fought and made the case. So did Tony Blair. If you just say, they | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
are being horrible to us, it looks pathetic. And it will cut through on | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
Osborne and the financial dimensional is, not political. I | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
shall tweet that later! While we have been talking, Mr Miliband has | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
been on Desert Island Discs. He might still be on it. Let's have a | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
listen to what he had to say. # Take on me, take me on. | :09:39. | :09:56. | |
# And threw it all, she offers me protection. | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
# A lot of love and affection. # Whether I'm right or wrong #. | :10:01. | :10:23. | |
# Je Ne Regrette Rien. #. Obviously, that was the music that | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
Ed Miliband chose. Who thought -- you would have thought he would | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
choose Norman Lamont's theme tune! He chose Jerusalem... He has no | :10:34. | :10:44. | |
classical background at all. He had no Beethoven, no Elgar. David | :10:45. | :10:55. | |
Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie, the fastest Notman in the West. -- | :10:56. | :11:06. | |
fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose the theme tune to a movie. Tony | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
Blair's list was chosen by young staffers in his office. It | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
absolutely was. Tony Blair's list was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
this was clearly chosen by himself, because who would allow politician | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
to go out there and say that they like Aha. I am the same age as Ed | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
Miliband, and of course he likes Aha. That was the tumour was played | :11:40. | :11:51. | |
in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is Angels by Robbie Williams. I was | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
14-year-old girl when that came out. I thought Angels was the staple of | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
hen nights and chucking out time in pubs. The really good thing about | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
his list is that the Smiths to not appear. The Smiths were all over | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
David Cameron's list. The absolutely miserable music of Morris he was not | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
there. What was his luxury? And Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I | :12:29. | :12:38. | |
would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music. | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing. | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from | :12:58. | :13:10. | |
the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Politics will be on BBC Two at lunchtime every day next week, and | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
we'll be back here on BBC One at 11am next week. My luxury, by the | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
way, was a wind-up radio! Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday | :13:22. | :13:22. | |
Politics. | :13:23. | :13:30. |