17/11/2013 Sunday Politics Wales


17/11/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

Downing Street announces an inquiry into allegations of hardball tactics

:00:40.:00:42.

and intimidation by unions in industrial disputes. That's our top

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story. Thousands dead. Hundreds of

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thousands without homes. Millions affected. What is Britain doing to

:00:52.:00:56.

help the Philippines in the wake of Typhoon Haiyan? We'll ask

:00:57.:00:57.

International Development Secretary Justine Greening.

:00:58.:01:03.

Winter is coming and so, it seems, is another crisis in England's

:01:04.:01:06.

hospitals. I'll be asking the Shadow Health Secretary how he'd put a stop

:01:07.:01:07.

Later in the programme: Police to

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Later in the programme: Police commissioners are a year old.

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They're supposed to make the police more accountable and reduce crime.

:01:16.:01:18.

We'll hear from the man doing the job in

:01:19.:01:20.

fatalities on the capital's streets, and renewed calls to get lorries off

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the roads in peak hours. With me, the best and brightest

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political panel that money can buy. Janan Ganesh, Nick Watt and this

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week, Zoe Williams, who'll be tweeting their thoughts throughout

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the programme. The Government has announced a

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review to investigate what the Prime Minister has called "industrial

:01:48.:01:49.

intimidation" by trade union activists. Bruce Carr QC will chair

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a panel to examine allegations of the kind of tactics that came to

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light during the Grangemouth dispute, when the Unite union took

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their protests - replete with a giant rat - outside the family homes

:02:08.:02:14.

of the firms' bosses. Earlier this morning the Cabinet office minister,

:02:15.:02:19.

Francis Maude spoke to the BBC and this is what he had to say. To look

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at whether the law currently works and see if it is ineffective in

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preventing the kind of intimidatory activity that was alleged to have

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taken place around range mouth during the previous disputes --

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Grangemouth. We make no presumptions at the beginning of this. I do think

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it is a responsible thing for the government to establish what

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happened and really do a proper review into whether the law is

:02:52.:02:55.

adequate to meet the needs. That was Francis Maude. This is a purely

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political move, isn't it? Unite did this a couple of times, it is hardly

:03:02.:03:06.

happening all over the country but the government want to say, we are

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prepared to investigate Unite properly, Labour isn't. This seemed

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a lot worse when I thought it was a real rat. I thought it was a giant

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dead rat. I am not sure if you know much about rats but real rats are

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not this big, even the ones in London. The thing is, obviously it

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is naked politics but I think it is more intelligent than it looks. They

:03:33.:03:38.

are trying to taint Miliband as a week union puppet and that doesn't

:03:39.:03:44.

really wash. They hammer away with it and it might wash for some

:03:45.:03:49.

people. But it really castrates Miliband in the important issues he

:03:50.:03:53.

has to tackle. Zero hours, living wage, all of those things in which

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he needs to be in concert with the unions, and to use their expertise.

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He is making them absolutely toxic to go anywhere near. It keeps the

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Unite story alive, have to kill -- particularly since Mr Miller band is

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under pressure to reopen the investigation into what Unite are up

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to -- Mr Miliband. They are frustrated, not only at the BBC but

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the media generally at what they think is a lack of coverage. I see

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the political rationale from that respect. There is a risk. There are

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union members who either vote Tory or are open to the idea of voting

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Tory. All Lib Dem. If the party comes across as too zealous in as --

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its antipathy, there is an electoral consequence. Ed Miliband has been

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careful to keep a distance. Yes, they depend on vast amounts of

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money. When Len McCluskey had a real go at the Blairites, Ed Miliband was

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straight out there with a very strong statement. Essentially Len

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McCluskey wanted Blairites in the shadow cabinet sacked and Ed

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Miliband was keen to distance himself or for that is why it is not

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quite sticking. Another story in the Sunday papers this morning, the Mail

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on Sunday got hold of some e-mails. When I saw the headline I thought it

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was a huge cache of e-mails, it turns out to be a couple. They peel

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away the cover on the relationship between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls,

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with some of Ed Miliband's cohorts describing what Mr balls is trying

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to do as a nightmare. How bad are the relations? They are pretty bad

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and these e-mails confirm the biggest open signal in Westminster,

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which is that relations are pretty tense, -- open secret. That Ed

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Miliband doesn't feel that Ed Balls is acknowledging the economy has

:06:17.:06:21.

grown that Labour needs to admit to past mistakes. The sort of great

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open signal is confirmed. On a scale of 1-10, assuming that Blair-Brown

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was ten. I think it is between six and seven. They occupy this joint

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suite of offices that George Cameron and -- David Cameron and George

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Osborne had. It is not just on the economy that there were tensions,

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there were clearly tensions over HS2, Ed Balls put a huge question

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over it at his conference. There will be more tensions when it comes

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to the third runway because my information is that Mr balls wants

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to do it and Ed Miliband almost resigned over it when he was in

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government. I don't think Ed Miliband is thinking very

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politically because he has tried live without Ed Balls and that is

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not tenable either. -- life without. He has defined a way of making it

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work. That is where Tony Blair had the edge on any modern politician.

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He didn't want to make Ed Balls his Shadow Chancellor, he had to.

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Somebody said to him, if you make Ed Balls Shadow Chancellor, that will

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be the last decision you take as leader of the Labour Party. Is it as

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bad? I was surprised at how tame the e-mails were. At the FT it is

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compulsory, one French word per sentence! To call him a nightmare,

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compared to what they are willing to say in briefings, conversations,

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bits of frustrations they express verbally come what is documented in

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the e-mails is actually pretty light. It has been a grim week for

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the people of the Philippines as they count the cost of the

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devastation wrought by Typhoon Haiyan. HMS Daring has just arrived

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near the worst hit areas - part of Britain's contribution to bring aid

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to the country. It has been one of the worst natural

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disasters in the history of the Philippines. Typhoon Haiyan hit the

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country nine days ago, leaving devastation in its wake. The numbers

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involved are shocking. The official death toll is over 3600 people, with

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many thousands more unaccounted for. More than half a million people have

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lost their homes and the UN estimates 11 million have been

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affected. David Cameron announced on Friday that the UK government is to

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give an extra ?30 million in aid, taking the total British figure ?250

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million. An RAF Sea 17 aircraft landed yesterday with equipment to

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help aid workers get too hard to reach areas. HMS Illustrious is on

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its way and due to arrive next weekend. The British public have

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once again dipped into their pockets and given generously. They have

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given more than ?30 million to the Disasters Emergency Committee.

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The International Development Secretary, Justine Greening, joins

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me now for the Sunday Interview. Good morning, Secretary of State.

:09:32.:09:35.

How much of the ?50 million that the government has allocated has got

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through so far? All of it has landed on the ground now. HMS Daring has

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turned up, that will be able to start getting help out to some of

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those more outlying islands that have been hard to reach. We have

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seen Save the Children and Oxfam really being able to get aid out on

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the ground. We have a plane taking off today that will not read just

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carrying out more equipment to help clear the roads but will also have

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their staff on board, too. We have ?50 million of aid actually on the

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ground? We instantly chartered flights directly from Dubai where we

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have preprepared human Terry and supplies, and started humanity work

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-- humanitarian supplies. A lot of it has now arrived. I think

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we have done a huge amount so far. We have gone beyond just providing

:10:37.:10:41.

humanitarian supplies, to getting the Royal Air Force involved. They

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have helped us to get equipment out there quickly. We have HMS

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Illustrious sailing over there now. Why has that taken so long? It was

:10:50.:10:54.

based in the Gulf and is not going to get there until two weeks after

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the storm first hit and that is the one ship we have with lots of

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helicopters. The first decision we took was to make sure we could get

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the fastest vessel out there that was able to help HMS Daring. HMS

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Illustrious was just finishing an exercise and planning to start to

:11:11.:11:14.

head back towards the UK. We have said to not do that, and diverted

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it. Shouldn't it have happened more quickly? We took the decisions as

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fast as we were able to, you can't just turn a big warship around like

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the HMS Illustrious. We made sure we took those decisions and that is

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while it will be taking over from HMS Daring come and that is why HMS

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Daring is ready there. It will be able to provide key support and

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expertise that has not been there so far. The US Navy is doing the heavy

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lifting here. The US Navy had the USS Washington, there is an aircraft

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carrier, 80 planes, 5000 personnel and they have the fleet, they are

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doing the real work. We obviously helping but the Americans are taking

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the lead. It is a big international effort. Countries like the US and

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the UK, that have a broader ability to support that goes beyond simply

:12:07.:12:15.

call humanitarian supplies -- have made sure we have brought our

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logistics knowledge, we have sent out our naval vessels. It shows we

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are working across government to respond to this crisis. Why does

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only just over 4% of your aid budget go on emergency disaster and

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response? A lot depends on what crises hit in any given year. We

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have done a huge amount, responding to the crisis in Syria, the conflict

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there and the fact we have 2 million refugees who have fled the country.

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We are part of an international effort in supporting them. Shouldn't

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we beginning more money to that rather than some of the other

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programmes where it is harder to see the results question of if we were

:12:58.:13:04.

to give more money to the refugees, it would be a visible result. We

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could see an improvement in the lives of children, men and women.

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What we need to do is alongside that is stop those situations from

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happening in the first place. A lot of our development spend is helping

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countries to stay stable. Look at some of the work we are doing in

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Somalia, much more sensible. Not just from an immigration but there

:13:27.:13:32.

is a threat perspective. There is a lot of terrorism coming from

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Somalia. You only have to look at Kenya recently to see that. Which is

:13:37.:13:42.

why you talk about what we do with the rest of the spend. It is why it

:13:43.:13:46.

is responsible to work with the government of Somalia. Should we

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give more, bigger part of the budget to disaster relief or not? I think

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we get it about right, we have to be flexible and we are. This Philippine

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relief is on top of the work in Syria. Where can you show me a

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correlation between us giving aid to some failed nation, or nearly failed

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nation, and that cutting down on terrorism? If you look at the work

:14:13.:14:17.

we have done in Pakistan, a huge amount of work. Some of it

:14:18.:14:20.

short-term. It is written by terrorism. That is -- ridden by

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terrorism. That is not going to fix it self in a sense. Look at the work

:14:29.:14:36.

that we do in investing in education. The things that little

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girls like Malala talk about as being absolutely key. We are ramping

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up our aid to Pakistan, it will be close to half ?1 billion by the time

:14:53.:14:58.

of the election. Why should British taxpayers be giving half ?1 billion

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to a country where only 0.5% of people in Pakistan pay income tax,

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and 70% of their own MPs don't pay income tax. It is a good point and

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that is why we have been working with their tax revenue authority to

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help them increase that and push forward the tax reform. You are

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right, and I have setup a team that will go out and work with many of

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these countries so they can raise their own revenues. You really think

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you will raise the amount of tax by sending out the British HRM see? How

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many troops I we sending out to protect them? They don't need

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troops. We make sure that we have a duty of care alongside our staff,

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but we have to respond to any crisis like the Philippines, and alongside

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other countries we have two work alongside them so that they can

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reinvest in their own public services. If they can create their

:16:26.:16:31.

own taxes, will we stop paying aid? We need to look at that but the new

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Pakistan Government has been very clear it is a priority and we will

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be helping them in pursuing that. Let me show you a picture. Who are

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these young women? I don't know, I'm sure you are about to tell me. They

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are the Ethiopian Spice Girls and I'm surprised you don't know because

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they have only managed to become so famous because your department has

:17:02.:17:09.

financed them to the tune of ?4 million. All of the work we do with

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women on the ground, making sure they have a voice in their local

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communities, making sure they have some control over what happens to

:17:20.:17:24.

their own bodies in terms of tackling FGM, female genital

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mutilation... Did you know your department has spent ?4 million on

:17:34.:17:38.

the Ethiopian Spice Girls? Yes, I do, and we have to work with girls

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and show them there is a life ahead of them with opportunity and

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potential that goes beyond what many of them will experience, which

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includes early and forced marriage. It is part of the work we do with

:17:55.:18:06.

local communities to change attitudes everything you have just

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said is immeasurable, and they broadcast on a radio station that

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doesn't reach most of the country so it cannot have the impact. It only

:18:15.:18:26.

reaches 20 million people and the project has been condemned saying

:18:27.:18:26.

there were serious inefficiencies. That aid report was done a while ago

:18:27.:18:35.

now, and it was talking about the project when it first got going, and

:18:36.:18:40.

a lot of improvements have happened since. I would go back to the point

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that we are working in very difficult environments where we are

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trying to get longer term change on the ground and that means working

:18:49.:18:53.

directly with communities but also investing for the long-term,

:18:54.:18:57.

investing in some of these girls start changing attitudes in them and

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their communities. Why does the British taxpayers spend ?5 million

:19:04.:19:14.

on a Bangladesh version of Question Time? We work with the BBC to make

:19:15.:19:20.

sure we can get accountabilities... That is bigger then the BBC Question

:19:21.:19:40.

Time Normal -- budget. That includes the cost of David Dimbleby's

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tattoo! We are working to improve people's prospects but also we are

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working to improve their ability to hold their governments to account so

:19:53.:19:56.

that when they are not getting services on the ground, they have

:19:57.:20:00.

ways they can raise those concerns with the people who are there to

:20:01.:20:08.

deliver services for them. In your own personal view, should the next

:20:09.:20:12.

Conservative Government, if there is one, should you continue to ring

:20:13.:20:18.

fence spending on foreign aid? But it is critical that if we are going

:20:19.:20:23.

to spend 7.7% of our national income, we should make sure it is in

:20:24.:20:28.

our national interest and that means having a clear approach to

:20:29.:20:33.

humanitarian responses, in keeping the country safe, and a clearer

:20:34.:20:37.

approach on helping drive economic development and jobs so there is a

:20:38.:20:43.

long-term end of the dependency. Do you believe in an shrine in the

:20:44.:20:49.

percentage of our GDP that goes on foreign aid in law? Yes, and that is

:20:50.:20:55.

a coalition agreement. There have been a lot of agreements that you

:20:56.:21:05.

are sceptical about ring fencing. We are focused on shaking up the

:21:06.:21:09.

economy and improving our public finances. Why haven't you done that?

:21:10.:21:23.

At the end of the day we will be accountable but we are committed to

:21:24.:21:28.

doing that. You are running out of time, will you do it? I hope we can

:21:29.:21:34.

find the Parliamentary time, but even if we don't, we have acted as

:21:35.:21:40.

if that law is in place and we have already met 0.7% commitment. If you

:21:41.:21:46.

are British voter that doesn't believe that we should enshrine that

:21:47.:21:53.

in by law, which means that with a growing economy foreign aid will

:21:54.:21:57.

rise by definition, and if you think we should be spending less money on

:21:58.:22:01.

the Ethiopian Spice Girls, for whom should you wrote in the next

:22:02.:22:09.

election? I think we have a very sensible approach. I don't know what

:22:10.:22:15.

the various party manifestoes... The only party who thinks we shouldn't

:22:16.:22:21.

be doing this is UKIP. I think you have to look at the response to both

:22:22.:22:31.

the Philippines crisis and Children In Need. Of all the steps we are

:22:32.:22:38.

taking to get the country back on track, it shows the British people

:22:39.:22:44.

will respond to need when they need it and it is one of the things that

:22:45.:22:52.

makes Britain's special. Thank you. "It's always winter but

:22:53.:22:55.

never Christmas" - that's how doctors describe life inside

:22:56.:22:57.

accident and emergency. The College of Emergency Medicine have warned

:22:58.:23:00.

that this year could bring the "worst crisis on record". If that

:23:01.:23:04.

dire prediction comes, expect a spring of political recriminations,

:23:05.:23:06.

but how prepared are the NHS in England? And what do they make of

:23:07.:23:10.

this autumnal speculation? Giles has been to Leeds to find out.

:23:11.:23:19.

This winter has already come to our hospitals. It had an official start

:23:20.:23:24.

date, November the 3rd. That is when weekly updates are delivered to the

:23:25.:23:33.

NHS's most senior planners, alerting them to any sudden changes in

:23:34.:23:39.

patient numbers coming in. Where do they numbers register most then

:23:40.:23:46.

A They are the barometer for what is going on everywhere else, and

:23:47.:23:51.

they are the pressure point, so if the system is beginning to struggle

:23:52.:23:55.

then it is in the A department that we see the problems. It is not

:23:56.:24:03.

that the problems are the A departments, but they are the place

:24:04.:24:09.

where it all comes together. Plans to tackle those problems start being

:24:10.:24:14.

drawn up in May and they look at trends, even taking notice of any

:24:15.:24:23.

flu epidemics in New Zealand. They also look at the amount of bets. But

:24:24.:24:33.

the weather, economic realities, structural reforms, and changes to

:24:34.:24:37.

the general health of the population, are all factors they

:24:38.:24:41.

have to consider. We get huge amounts of information through the

:24:42.:24:46.

winter in order to help the NHS be the best it can be, but we had to

:24:47.:24:51.

redouble our efforts this year because we expected to be a

:24:52.:24:56.

difficult winter. We know the NHS is stretched so we are working hard to

:24:57.:25:03.

be as good as we can be. That means they are looking at winter staffing

:25:04.:25:10.

levels, plans to ask for help from neighbouring hospitals, and

:25:11.:25:14.

dovetailing help with GP surgeries, and still having the ability to move

:25:15.:25:20.

up an extra gear, a rehearsed emergency plan if the NHS had to

:25:21.:25:26.

face a major disease pandemic. You spend any time in any of our

:25:27.:25:30.

hospitals and you realise the NHS knows that winter is coming and they

:25:31.:25:35.

are making plans, but you also get a palpable feeling amongst health

:25:36.:25:38.

workers across the entire system that they do get fed up of being

:25:39.:25:46.

used as a political football. Doctors and all health care

:25:47.:25:49.

professionals are frustrated about the politics that surrounds the NHS

:25:50.:25:55.

in health care. They go to work to treat patients as best as they can,

:25:56.:25:58.

and the political knock-about does not help anyone. I find it

:25:59.:26:05.

frustrating when there is a commentary that suggests the NHS

:26:06.:26:08.

does not planned, when it is surprised by winter, and wherever

:26:09.:26:15.

that comes from it is hard to take, knowing how much we do nationally

:26:16.:26:21.

and how much our hard working front line staff are doing. When the

:26:22.:26:30.

Coalition have recently tried to open up the NHS to be a more

:26:31.:26:36.

independent body, it is clear the NHS feel they have had an unhealthy

:26:37.:26:43.

dose of political wrangling between parties on policy. The NHS is not

:26:44.:26:47.

infallible or making any guarantees, but they seem confident that they

:26:48.:26:53.

and their patients can survive the winter.

:26:54.:26:56.

Joining me now from Salford in the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy

:26:57.:27:04.

Burnham. Tell me this, if you were health secretary now, you just took

:27:05.:27:09.

over in an emergency election, what would you do to avoid another winter

:27:10.:27:19.

crisis? I would immediately halt the closure of NHS walk-in centres. We

:27:20.:27:25.

heard this week that around one in four walk-in centres are closed so

:27:26.:27:30.

it makes no sense whatsoever for the Government to allow the continued

:27:31.:27:34.

closure of them. I would put nurses back on the end of phones and

:27:35.:27:40.

restore an NHS direct style service. The new 111 service is not in a

:27:41.:27:47.

position to provide help to people this winter. I think the time has

:27:48.:27:54.

come to rethink how the NHS care is particularly for older people so I

:27:55.:27:58.

propose the full integration of health and social care. It cannot

:27:59.:28:03.

make any sense any more to have this approach where we cut social care

:28:04.:28:09.

and let elderly people drift to hospitals in greater numbers. We

:28:10.:28:13.

have two rethink it as a whole service. So you would repeal some of

:28:14.:28:21.

the Tory reforms and move commissioning to local authorities

:28:22.:28:26.

so the NHS should brace itself for another major top-down health

:28:27.:28:32.

reorganisation? No, unlike Andrew Lansley I will work with the

:28:33.:28:36.

organisations ie inherit. He could work with primary care trusts but he

:28:37.:28:47.

turned it upside down when it needed stability. I will not do that but I

:28:48.:28:53.

will repeal the health and social care act because last week we heard

:28:54.:29:06.

that hospitals and health services cannot get on and make sensible

:29:07.:29:09.

merger collaborations because of this nonsense now that the NHS is

:29:10.:29:16.

bound by competition law. Let me get your views on a number of ideas that

:29:17.:29:21.

have been floated either by the press or the Coalition. We haven't

:29:22.:29:25.

got much time. Do you welcome the plan to bring back named GPs for

:29:26.:29:37.

over 75s? Yes, but it has got harder to get the GP appointment under this

:29:38.:29:42.

Government because David Cameron scrapped the 48-hour guarantee that

:29:43.:29:46.

Tony Blair brought in. He was challenged in the 2005 election

:29:47.:29:51.

about the difficulty of getting a GP appointment, and Tony Blair brought

:29:52.:29:55.

in the commitment that people should be able to get that within 48

:29:56.:30:02.

hours. That has now been scrapped. Do you welcome the idea of allowing

:30:03.:30:06.

everyone to choose their own GP surgery even if it is not in our

:30:07.:30:14.

traditional catchment area? I proposed that just before the last

:30:15.:30:19.

election, so yes. Do you welcome the idea of how a practice is being

:30:20.:30:23.

rated being a matter of public record, and of us knowing how much,

:30:24.:30:30.

at least from the NHS, our GP earns? Of course, every political party

:30:31.:30:34.

supports transparency in the NHS. More information for the public of

:30:35.:30:38.

that kind is a good thing. Do you welcome this plan to make it will

:30:39.:30:44.

form the collect in an NHS hospital -- make wilful neglect a criminal

:30:45.:30:51.

offence. It is important to say you can't pick and mix these

:30:52.:30:54.

recommendations, you can't say we will have that one and not the

:30:55.:30:58.

others. It was a balanced package that Sir Robert Francis put forward.

:30:59.:31:03.

My message is that it must be permitted in full. If we are to

:31:04.:31:06.

learn the lessons, the whole package must be addressed, and that includes

:31:07.:31:12.

safe staffing levels across the NHS. Staff have a responsible to two

:31:13.:31:17.

patients at the government also has responsible at T2 NHS staff and it

:31:18.:31:20.

should not let them work in understaffed, unsafe conditions -- a

:31:21.:31:33.

responsibility to NHS staff. Is there a part of the 2004 agreements

:31:34.:31:43.

that you regret and should be undone? A lot of myths have been

:31:44.:31:48.

built up about the contract. When it came in, there was a huge shortage

:31:49.:31:53.

of GPs across the country. Some communities struggle to recruit.

:31:54.:31:58.

This myth that the government have built, that the 2004 GP contract is

:31:59.:32:04.

responsible for the AM decries is, it is spin of the worst possible

:32:05.:32:12.

kind -- the A crisis. You would redo that contract? It was redone

:32:13.:32:17.

under our time in government and change to make it better value for

:32:18.:32:22.

money. GPs should be focused on improving the health of their

:32:23.:32:25.

patients and that is a very good principle. Not so great if you can't

:32:26.:32:32.

get 24-hour access. I agree with that. We brought in evening and

:32:33.:32:37.

weekend opening for GPs. That is another thing that has gone in

:32:38.:32:41.

reverse under Mr Cameron. It is much harder to get a GP appointment under

:32:42.:32:44.

him and that is one of the reasons why A is an oppressor. -- under

:32:45.:32:55.

pressure. What do you make of the review into intimidatory tactics by

:32:56.:33:00.

unions? If there has been intimidation, it is unacceptable,

:33:01.:33:04.

and that should apply to unions as well as employers. Was Unite wrong

:33:05.:33:12.

to turn up and demonstrate? I don't know the details, this review will

:33:13.:33:16.

look into that presumably. I need reassurance that this is not a

:33:17.:33:20.

pretty cool call by Mr Cameron on the designed to appear near the

:33:21.:33:23.

election -- that this is not a political call. Are you sponsored by

:33:24.:33:35.

unite? No. Do you get any money from Unite? No. What have you done wrong?

:33:36.:33:44.

It seems others are getting money from Unite. Can I tell you what I

:33:45.:33:51.

think is the scandal of British party political funding, two health

:33:52.:33:54.

care companies have given ?1.5 million in donations to the Tory

:33:55.:34:02.

party, they have ?1.5 billion in NHS contracts. I wonder why you don't

:34:03.:34:06.

spend much time talking about that and obsess over trade union funding.

:34:07.:34:11.

We are happy to talk about that. We see from e-mails that Mr Miliband's

:34:12.:34:18.

closest advisers regard Mr Ed Balls as a bit of a nightmare, do you see

:34:19.:34:24.

a bit of a nightmare about him as well? I don't at all, he is a very

:34:25.:34:29.

good friend. I can't believe that you are talking about those e-mails

:34:30.:34:33.

on a national political programme. My goodness, you obviously scraping

:34:34.:34:38.

the barrel today. I have been in front-line labour politics for 20

:34:39.:34:42.

years. I can't remember the front bench and the wider party being as

:34:43.:34:46.

united as it is today and it is a great credit to Ed Miliband and Ed

:34:47.:34:50.

Balls. We are going into a general election and we are going to get rid

:34:51.:34:53.

of a pretty disastrous coalition government. It was worth spending a

:34:54.:34:58.

few seconds to establish your not having nightmares. Thank you for

:34:59.:35:02.

joining me. It's just gone 11:30am. You're

:35:03.:35:04.

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be

:35:05.:35:06.

talking to the MP accused of Hello. It's a year since police

:35:07.:35:23.

commissioners were elected for the first time. Have they had an

:35:24.:35:29.

impact? And could a portrait of the First Minister Carwyn Jones be the

:35:30.:35:31.

first steps to Wales doing more trade with Ukraine? Joining me the

:35:32.:35:37.

Liberal Democrat MP Roger Williams and the Plaid Cymru Assembly Member

:35:38.:35:42.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas. Good morning. Let's start with a view from you on

:35:43.:35:48.

the typhoon in the Philippines. The DTC is saying that there needs to be

:35:49.:35:53.

a real renewed focus on dealing with climate change as a result of this

:35:54.:35:57.

but also there is a concern that more things like this will happen in

:35:58.:36:04.

the future. I'm very lucky to have an adviser on these things and there

:36:05.:36:09.

is a certainty that there is a pattern which has been emerging over

:36:10.:36:12.

recent years and I think it's essential that we do take advantage

:36:13.:36:16.

of every international opportunities such as the current discussions in

:36:17.:36:21.

Warsaw to try to respond more positively. That does mean

:36:22.:36:25.

decarbonising the energy generation and I'm very concerned about the

:36:26.:36:34.

cost of energy because, obviously, if we are going to reduce the amount

:36:35.:36:45.

of carbon that is generated, we need to invest in renewables and nuclear.

:36:46.:36:49.

Ed Davey seems to have changed his view on nuclear. He is for it now,

:36:50.:36:55.

where he was in before. That is something the Lib Dems have done in

:36:56.:37:00.

government. That the change we made. Are you happy with that change? I've

:37:01.:37:04.

always been on the pro-nuclear wing of the Lib Dems. It's essential if

:37:05.:37:09.

we are going to decarbonise the energy supply system that that plays

:37:10.:37:17.

a part. But in terms of the typhoon, it's difficult to attribute any

:37:18.:37:20.

particular whether incident to I'm change but there's no doubt --

:37:21.:37:26.

climate change but there's no doubt this is having an impact. A year

:37:27.:37:32.

ago, the first directly elected Police and Crime Commissioners came

:37:33.:37:36.

to power across Wales and England. The aim was to give people some

:37:37.:37:38.

control over their forces with invisible figure the public can

:37:39.:37:43.

raise concerns with. In a moment we'll hear from the Dyfed Powys

:37:44.:37:48.

Commissioner Christopher Salmon. But first a snapshot of the first 12

:37:49.:37:50.

months of Wales's newest elected representatives. Last November just

:37:51.:37:56.

under 15% of the Welsh electorate voted for Police and Crime

:37:57.:37:59.

Commissioners and they are elected the Conservative Christopher Salmon

:38:00.:38:02.

into the towers, Labour's Alun Michael in South Wales, an

:38:03.:38:07.

independent in North Wales and another in Gwent. A row followed and

:38:08.:38:18.

Carmel maybe it left in June after he threatened to fire her if she

:38:19.:38:27.

didn't retire. South Wales commissioner Alun Michael stresses

:38:28.:38:29.

the close working relationship with his chief constable, Peter Vaughan,

:38:30.:38:33.

and says the groundwork has been laid for reduced crime and better

:38:34.:38:38.

policing for the next three years. Christopher Salmon has overseen the

:38:39.:38:41.

creation of a new fund for Officers' projects to cut crime and

:38:42.:38:45.

is planning a big increase in special constables. Also appointed a

:38:46.:38:53.

new chief constable. Winston Roddick created a new rural crime force. He

:38:54.:39:00.

says they are making the force use officers better. The Home Secretary

:39:01.:39:05.

admits some Police and Crime Commissioners have made mistakes but

:39:06.:39:08.

says overall they are driving major change and holding forces to

:39:09.:39:12.

account. Let's speak to the Dyfed Powys police Commissioner

:39:13.:39:18.

Christopher Salmon. Good morning. Let me hit you with some statistics.

:39:19.:39:26.

Turnout was low - 15%. A BBC poll this week suggested that a third of

:39:27.:39:30.

people didn't know who their Police and Crime Commissioner was, and half

:39:31.:39:35.

of people asked said that they had had little or no effect. Is that

:39:36.:39:43.

your experience? No, it isn't and to come back to your poll, if a third

:39:44.:39:47.

don't know, the obvious answer is that two thirds do and that is some

:39:48.:39:51.

achievement, given where we were a year ago. Your poll also suggested

:39:52.:39:58.

that 40% of people believed that Police and Crime Commissioners had

:39:59.:40:03.

had a positive effect on crime. There is more to do. A lot of what I

:40:04.:40:07.

have to do is explain my role and make myself accessible to the

:40:08.:40:10.

public. But we are much more accessible. I doubt very much you

:40:11.:40:14.

would have been talking to a member of the police authority on this

:40:15.:40:17.

programme, had the system not changed. Do you feel you're living

:40:18.:40:22.

on borrowed time because when you are elected it was a four-year

:40:23.:40:28.

term, and Labour are committed to abolishing the posts. Do you feel

:40:29.:40:32.

you are on a hiding to nothing? I don't think Labour are committed.

:40:33.:40:37.

They are conducting their review of policing at the moment and it's up

:40:38.:40:41.

to them to say what they want to do. But if they're going to, they need

:40:42.:40:44.

to find something else to replace it with. I don't think we're on

:40:45.:40:48.

borrowed time at all. I'm very pleased with the progress we've

:40:49.:40:52.

made. There is no question we all need to use - and I am certainly

:40:53.:40:57.

going to use - this first term to persuade people of the benefits of

:40:58.:41:01.

what I am doing, in particular. I want to face my electric inmate 2016

:41:02.:41:07.

to say how we have cut crime -- in May of 2016 to say how we have cut

:41:08.:41:12.

crime and have a police force that is highly professional and that

:41:13.:41:17.

people can trust. People will judge me on that then. There are wider

:41:18.:41:22.

discussions on policing in Wales - whether it should be devolved, for

:41:23.:41:26.

one. What is your view? It has been devolved. All the decisions relating

:41:27.:41:32.

to policing are made by politicians elected by people in Wales for

:41:33.:41:37.

people in Wales. In many ways, it is more devolved than if it were in

:41:38.:41:41.

Cardiff. All you to do is add expense and complication and I don't

:41:42.:41:45.

see any advantage in terms of crime-fighting, and that's what we

:41:46.:41:48.

have to be about - making people safer. The other discussion that has

:41:49.:42:01.

often been hard - should we have one force for Wales? My answer is that

:42:02.:42:06.

we shouldn't but not particularly because of my job. The important

:42:07.:42:11.

thing that the cc have allowed is allowing us to come up with a local

:42:12.:42:26.

response to local issues. -- PCCs. We are an area the size of Lebanon

:42:27.:42:33.

and we have to be answerable to our own residence. That is the value of

:42:34.:42:38.

localism. That is the great power of this post and I wouldn't favour

:42:39.:42:43.

centralising things in Wales at all. Winston Roddick in North Wales has

:42:44.:42:47.

done some thing similar in attempting to address problems with

:42:48.:42:51.

crime in rural areas. How much do you speak to each other as

:42:52.:42:53.

commissioners across the country? A lot. As Welsh commissioners, we meet

:42:54.:42:59.

quarterly. I talk to Winston regularly, whenever we have summoned

:43:00.:43:04.

to discuss. I'm very keen to be the best possible magpie that I can and

:43:05.:43:10.

steal ideas from him and elsewhere, wherever commissioners are pursuing

:43:11.:43:19.

all sorts of initiatives. Northumbria are doing something on

:43:20.:43:21.

women's issues and domestic violence. Morale of the police has

:43:22.:43:28.

been in the news with the plebgate row and Andrew Mitchell. As far as

:43:29.:43:33.

you're concerned, what do you think the situation with public trust is

:43:34.:43:37.

at the moment? Do you think it has been affected by the plebgate row? I

:43:38.:43:41.

think it has. I think, fundamentally, the public trust the

:43:42.:43:47.

police, which is right and good. The problem with losing trust is that

:43:48.:43:51.

it's very corrosive and I think the best way the police service, and we

:43:52.:43:55.

as PCCs responsible for delivering policing, can tackle that is to be

:43:56.:44:03.

honest and upfront about the challenges. We need more

:44:04.:44:04.

independence and the police complaints system. It needs to be

:44:05.:44:09.

much quicker, more bureaucratic and more focused on the needs of the

:44:10.:44:13.

public than it currently is. A number of us are talking to the Home

:44:14.:44:16.

Secretary about ideas to improve that and I think we'll see something

:44:17.:44:20.

over the next few months and years. Thanks very much for joining us.

:44:21.:44:28.

Gentlemen, both of your parties failed to put up candidates. A year

:44:29.:44:33.

wrong, how do you feel about the situation? It was part of the

:44:34.:44:38.

coalition agreement to have elections for police commissioners

:44:39.:44:42.

and we went along with that. We've always wanted more democratic

:44:43.:44:46.

accountability for the police but not necessarily to politicise it.

:44:47.:44:51.

Therefore, we didn't put up candidates and I think it's very

:44:52.:44:57.

telling that where credible, independent candidates were

:44:58.:44:59.

standing, they got support from the electorate. They didn't get support

:45:00.:45:04.

from you, did they? No, they didn't and they wouldn't. I envy what has

:45:05.:45:10.

happened in Scotland with a unified police system. We now have a Lord

:45:11.:45:17.

Chief Justice of Wales might just come into post, who has always been

:45:18.:45:24.

a strong devolutionist. There is no question that the probation service,

:45:25.:45:32.

a major issue at the moment, is a mistake. Running public services in

:45:33.:45:37.

Wales on the same model across England is wrong on the board. You

:45:38.:45:45.

don't accept Christopher Salmon to's point that policing is already

:45:46.:45:50.

devolved? Look what has happened to the railway industry. Since Network

:45:51.:45:55.

Rail is run from Cardiff, it's much more effective than it was before.

:45:56.:46:03.

I'm sorry for these unionist people who are going on and on about

:46:04.:46:07.

orders. I've got no patience with this. There will always be services

:46:08.:46:13.

that will be shared across the marshes between England and Wales

:46:14.:46:16.

and long may that be the case. But that doesn't prevent us in Wales

:46:17.:46:20.

from having our own organised public services. It's obvious that once you

:46:21.:46:24.

look at the Ministry of Justice and all related issues, especially the

:46:25.:46:33.

prevention of crime, it is going to need a reorganisation. I would urge

:46:34.:46:38.

people to start thinking about that echoes the administration of justice

:46:39.:46:44.

will be devolved before 2020. Do you agree with Christopher Salmon or

:46:45.:46:48.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas? I would rather agree with Dafydd. We will see

:46:49.:46:54.

announcements fairly soon about how services are going to be delivered

:46:55.:46:58.

in Wales and I agree that when they are centred locally, we get a more

:46:59.:47:03.

responsive and more proactive type of service. That goes for the police

:47:04.:47:13.

and criminal justice system. The other question was about the poll

:47:14.:47:17.

results. The third of people didn't know the Commissioner. He made the

:47:18.:47:21.

point that two thirds do. 15% people turned out. The first year has just

:47:22.:47:28.

been about convincing people that they exist, I suppose. I think so.

:47:29.:47:33.

We'll have to see when the next election for police commissioners

:47:34.:47:36.

comes around, will there be greater engagement, a greater turnout at the

:47:37.:47:41.

polling stations? I think perhaps we need to think again about how we

:47:42.:47:49.

have free obligations sent to all the electors because at the last

:47:50.:47:53.

election, people wear entirely unaware of the election and what the

:47:54.:47:58.

consequences were. A year on, do you think people are any more informed

:47:59.:48:05.

than they were? Ido think they are. I've been very concerned about the

:48:06.:48:09.

intervention of the police commissioners in operational issues

:48:10.:48:14.

involving policing. Do you mean in Gwent? I mean generally. These are

:48:15.:48:18.

very sensitive areas and we are dealing with issues of security, of

:48:19.:48:23.

law and order, of the rights of citizens. And I do think that when

:48:24.:48:29.

you have a political campaign about the reorganisation of police

:48:30.:48:32.

services, it doesn't really contribute to the debate about crime

:48:33.:48:38.

prevention and security within our society. We'll leave it there for

:48:39.:48:47.

now. Ukraine is to honour a leading Welsh industrialist who established

:48:48.:48:51.

its second biggest city by opening a museum dedicated to him and

:48:52.:48:53.

launching a commemorative postage stamp. It will mark the 200th

:48:54.:48:56.

anniversary of the birth of John Hughes in Merthyr Tydfil, who

:48:57.:48:59.

founded what's now called Donetsk. It's hoped reviving Wales's historic

:49:00.:49:02.

ties with the East European nation will lead to trade opportunities, if

:49:03.:49:05.

hopes Ukraine will become closer aligned to the EU are realised.

:49:06.:49:14.

Vodka, nibbles and the work of a top Ukrainian artist in honour of John

:49:15.:49:17.

Hughes, celebrating a connection between Wales and Don. In 1869,

:49:18.:49:26.

Hughes was invited to Ukraine, then part of the Russian Empire, to bring

:49:27.:49:31.

the Industrial Revolution East. He developed an iron Works, coalmine

:49:32.:49:37.

and railway, and he was honoured nearly a century and a half later in

:49:38.:49:40.

Cardiff they are to Ukrainian Embassy event. He is probably the

:49:41.:49:48.

biggest industrial -- it is probably the biggest industrial city, which

:49:49.:49:53.

develops a lot of industries, including the iron making, which

:49:54.:49:57.

John Hughes was very famous for. Coal mining, too, and many others.

:49:58.:50:02.

He really was the father of the Ukrainian city which is now called

:50:03.:50:14.

Don -esque. Mr Jones believes John Hughes's story is still relevant.

:50:15.:50:19.

The message is that we've always been able to do things as a people.

:50:20.:50:23.

We had people working in the minds and the steelworks in their hundreds

:50:24.:50:28.

of thousands. We still have Cardiff docks, Barry docks, where coal is

:50:29.:50:33.

exported around the world. What we have in John James Hughes is

:50:34.:50:36.

somebody who took Welsh expertise, took it to the Ukraine and it

:50:37.:50:45.

thrived. This Labour MP's father fled Ukraine for Britain after the

:50:46.:50:52.

war. He believes there could be benefits from Ukraine moving closer

:50:53.:50:58.

to the youth. The travel will be easier, trade will be a lot easier

:50:59.:51:03.

and less restrictive and, of course, as well as being a producer

:51:04.:51:09.

of many minerals and skills, it is also an agricultural producer and an

:51:10.:51:15.

importer, as well. So their mutual benefits in terms of common

:51:16.:51:18.

agriculture, common agricultural trade. We have similar objectives

:51:19.:51:26.

and challenges, in terms of what we do as older industries start to

:51:27.:51:31.

decline and we need to replace the jobs. I've met the ambassador before

:51:32.:51:37.

and Mick is the Assembly Member for Pontypridd, and is of Ukrainian and

:51:38.:51:43.

history, and is keen to develop those links. This band will tour the

:51:44.:52:01.

Ukraine, including Don , next year. We hear about John Hughes going to

:52:02.:52:05.

Ukraine in the mid to late 19th century, taking his expertise around

:52:06.:52:10.

the world. Carwyn Jones suggests we should keep on trying to do that. Is

:52:11.:52:17.

Wales in a position to do that? I hope we are. We have expertise in

:52:18.:52:21.

engineering, renewable energy and decommissioning of nuclear. We have

:52:22.:52:26.

lots of engineering experience which we can share and I'm very pleased

:52:27.:52:30.

about this initiative with Ukraine because it's important that we think

:52:31.:52:35.

of Europe as what it really is, and don't talk about Eastern Europe as

:52:36.:52:38.

if we were still suffering from Cold War problems. Therefore, as much as

:52:39.:52:44.

we can do in that direction, it is as well as it is obvious sleep

:52:45.:52:54.

double -- obviously profitable. They're trying to get closer to the

:52:55.:52:58.

EU, but Russia are trying to keep them away from doing that. Do you

:52:59.:53:02.

welcome the idea that Wales should be trying to forge its own trade

:53:03.:53:06.

links apart from the UK government's? Absolutely. There has

:53:07.:53:12.

been an agreement between the EU and the nation states to form a deep and

:53:13.:53:17.

compounds of free trade area with Ukraine and that's so important. It

:53:18.:53:21.

will lead to the break down of tariffs between exports and imports.

:53:22.:53:26.

Agriculture, as well as heavy industry, is a big part of the

:53:27.:53:31.

Ukraine economy. It would seem to be the breadbasket of Russia before the

:53:32.:53:37.

USSR was broken down and it is very productive in those terms. But Wales

:53:38.:53:41.

has got so much to offer in terms of life sciences. The reputation of

:53:42.:53:45.

Cardiff University and Swansea University, growing at the moment,

:53:46.:53:49.

means our scientists are held in huge and high regard across the

:53:50.:53:55.

world. We can be spreading that and gaining influence for Wales. Are we

:53:56.:54:01.

making enough of it? If these things are happening, maybe we should

:54:02.:54:06.

publicise it more. I think so. We need to blow our trumpets a bit and

:54:07.:54:10.

make sure that when Welsh people and Welsh institutions are in the front

:54:11.:54:14.

of these things, it's acknowledged and made aware to everybody. And

:54:15.:54:20.

don't forget culture, especially for all. Now that we've got Gareth Bale

:54:21.:54:27.

and Aaron Ramsey... They're both fit but this is so important, the

:54:28.:54:34.

cultural connections, and it's an area where many institutions have

:54:35.:54:43.

been working. The more we do there, the more that has a spin off for

:54:44.:54:46.

other businesses, as well, and the important point is that these days

:54:47.:54:48.

it is green investment and investment in rural technologies and

:54:49.:54:51.

the kind of material we were talking about earlier - this is at the

:54:52.:54:55.

forefront of what the world needs and we can certainly work with

:54:56.:54:59.

Ukraine on those things. Time for a quick look that at some

:55:00.:55:02.

of the political stories in the

:55:03.:32:45.

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