06/04/2014 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press,

Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top

story. The economic outlook is getting

rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living

crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins

us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics

Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of

world leader is behind these paintings of

new London borough. A blue flint for regeneration or economic Armageddon?

And with me as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be

as brief as a Cabinet Minister's apology.

A frenzy of betting on the Grand National yesterday. But there was

one book on which betting was suspended, and that was on the fate

of Culture Secretary Maria Miller, now the 2/1 favourite to be forced

out the Cabinet. She galloped through her apology to the Commons

on Thursday in just 32 seconds. But speed did her no favours. There's

been mounting pressure on her to resign ever since, especially from

Tories. And this weekend the Chairman of the Independent

Parliamentary Standards Authority, Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave

away the power to decide how colleagues who break the rules are

punished. An inquiry into Maria Miller's expenses claims was launch

in 2012, following allegations he claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she

lived in part time with her parents. She had designated this her second

home. She was referred to the Parliamentary Standards

Commissioner, who recommended that she repay ?45,000. But this week the

Commons Standards Committee, comprising of MPs from all parties,

dismissed the complaint against Maria Miller and ordered her to

repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently overclaiming her merge claimants.

She was forced to apologise to the Commons for the legalistic way she

dealt with the complaints against her. But Tony Gallagher told the

Daily Politics on Friday: We got a third call from Craig Oliver who

pointed out, she is looking at Leveson and the call is badly timed.

I think if you are making a series of telephone calls to a newspaper

organisation investigating the conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that

comes close After that interview Craig Oliver

contacted us, saying there was no threat in anyway over Leveson. I

mead it clear at the time. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about

me, and you can use that. The Daily Telegraph have released a tape of a

phone call between Maria Miller's aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter

investigating her expenses claim. Joanna Hindley said:

Maria's obviously been having quite a lot of editor's meetings around

Leveson at the moment. So I'm just going to kind of flag up that

connection for you to think about. The Prime Minister is sticking by

his Culture Secretary, but this weekend's crescendo of criticism of

her presents him with a problem and he could be wishing Maria Miller

would just fall on her sword. Even over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on

Sunday poll think she should go. On the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and

Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, defended his colleague. I've

known her always to be a reasonable and honest person. But is she doing

the Government or her any good by staying in office at the moment, do

you think? This is a matter the Prime Minister has to take

consideration of and she herself. My view generally is I'm supportive of

Maria, because if we are not careful we end one a witch-hunt of somebody.

And I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and

the man in the white suit, former MP and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin

Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart Stuart sturkts let me put this to

you, a Conservative MP told this programme, this is a quote, she has

handled this appallingly. Downing Street has acted like judge and

jury, for Craig Oliver to get involved is disastrous. She's been

protected by the whips from the start. What do you say to that? It's

not great, is it? The fact of the matter is the question one should

ask is, did she deliberately try to make money? Did she deliberately try

to obscure ate? The answer is she certainly didn't deliberately try to

make money, in the system, which was the old system, and with regard to

obscure ago, I wasn't there, but let's put it this way. She was going

through a quasi-judicial process and might have ended up in court, so she

has a right to defend herself. Hold on o you said she doesn't do it to

make money, she remortgaged the house a couple of times to earn more

interest to us, the taxpayer, and when interest rates went down she

didn't reduce the amount she was charging in expenses. Well, the

point is the adjudicator said there was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a

committee, Standards Committee, said actually it should be reduced. That

was mainly MPs but there are three lay members. Yes, but they don't

have the vote. OK, fine, that is where it is wrong and we've got to

get it sorted. Let me put another quote from our Conservative MP. He

didn't want to be named. None of you do at the moment. I'm being named.

But you are backing her. George young in cahoots. He's been leading

on the Standards Committee to find her innocent. The Standards

Committee is unfit for purpose. I think the Standards Committee should

be revisited. I think the system is still evolving. And I think actually

we ought to have totally independent judgment on MPs' pay and allowances.

We haven't have not got there yet and that is where it is wrong.

Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in the Maria Miller process and with

the current Standards Commissioner in the same way that they saw off a

previous Commissioner they thought was too independent? Andrew it is

exactly the same. Yesterday I looked at a diary entry I made for May

2000, I said, dreadful meeting standards and privileges, they are

playing party politics. One of them told Elizabeth fill kin to her face

the gossip in the tea room was she had gone crazy. Nothing's changed.

What this shows is most of all, what's the committee for? If it is

just going to rubber stamp what the party wants and its mates, I don't

see any point. But it hasn't rubber stamped. It's changed it. Well, it

has watered down. That's why we should make it totally independent

and it shouldn't be involved in the House of Commons. It is plus plus ca

change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and MPs closing ranks for one of their

own. Has the Commons learned nothing? And this is after the

expenses scandal, where everything was out for everybody to see, you

would think MPs would be careful. This is before the expenses scandal.

We are looking at an historical event, during your time, Martin, not

mine. I'm clean on this. You campaigned for him as an

independent. I did, he was a good friend of mine. And now you've

joined the club. And now you are defending Maria Miller? I'm

defending someone who hasn't been proved guilty of anything beyond the

fact she was rather slow to come forward with evidence. My point on

that, is I understand that. MPs are being lambasted the whole time these

days. There were a heck of a lot of them, Martin, who are utterly

decent. She didn't try to make money. We've just been through that.

I don't think that's right. The jury is out on that. What should have

happened in the Miller case, Martin Bell? I don't think there should be

a committee on standards. I think the Commissioner should make a

report. There has been to be justice for the MP complained against. Then

the committee of the whole House can consider it. But we are, the House

of Commons, then as now is incapable of regulating itself. That's been

proving yet again. She made a perfunctory apology. She threatened

and instructed the Standards Commissioner investigating her, and

her special adviser linked expenses to Leveson, when trying to stop the

Daily Telegraph from publishing. I mean, is that the behaviour of a

Cabinet Minister? Well, it's probably not the behaviour of

someone that's got time on their hands. She's a very busy Cabinet

Minister. Well, she had enough time to write lots of letters to the

Standards Commission ser. She felt under such threat. She had the time.

She had to make the time. Die know the lady is not trying desperately

to make money. I disagree but on that. The fact of the matter is,

this was an old, old system, that we've tried to put right, or the

Commons has tried to put right. I agree that MPs shouldn't get

involved in this. Should we get rid of this committee? It serves no

purpose except to cause trouble. The adjudicator has said that and it

should be the end of it. It shouldn't come back to the Commons.

Although her special adviser threatened them over Leveson she was

and is the Minister responsible for trying to introduce something like

Leveson and that is something a big chunk that the press doesn't want.

She is a target. It has a good record on this issue. It played wit

a straight bat. The facts aren't in dispute are they? Will she make it

to the next cabinet reshuffle and then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it

is a matter for the Prime Minister. In my view, as things stand, I

question did she deliberately want to make money? I don't think she

did. Should she go? No. Should she be reshuffled? I don't know.

Goodness me, you are asking someone who will never be reshuffled,

because he will never make it. I was only asking for your opinion, not

your ability to do it. This is a problem for Cameron isn't it? It is

a problem for Cameron. There is nothing wrong with returning to be

badge benches, as you know. Hear, hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen,

can she survive? Is I'm going out of the prediction game when I said

Clegg is going to win the date, so I owe Janan a tenner on that one.

Grant Shapps has supported her. She was ringed by Sir George young and

Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty devastating. On past form David

Cameron hates having to bounce people out of the cabinet. He will

want to keep Maria Miller until the summer reshuffle. This is a question

mark on whether she survive this is. This isn't damaging to the

Conservative or the Labour Party, it is damaging to everyone. This is

catastrophic damage to the entire political establishment. Every

single speech that David Cameron and Ed Miliband have given since 2009,

talking about restoring trust, they can wipe them from their computers,

because voters are going to look that there and say, this lot haven't

learnt anything. They are giving perfunctory apologies and then you

have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs and rather than paying back ?45,000,

she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have been into it. Damage is huge. Just

getting rid of one Cabinet Minister, you will need to do more than that.

You will notice that Labour haven't made huge weather of this. No,

goodness me, they have their own skeletons. Exactly. The person who

has made hay out of this is Nigel Farage, who has not been backwards

in coming forward. He doesn't seem to care about skeletons. The Prime

Minister has be-Gunby backing her, but that's not popular even with

Tory voters. How does he get out of this? This is the problem for him.

Five years ago his reaction to the expenses scandal was seen by many

Tory backbenchers as excessive. They felt hung out to dry by a man who is

independently wealthy. To go from that to making a special exemption

to Maria Miller because it is politically suitable is more

incendiary and provocative. It is not just upsetting the voters and

the Daily Telegraph but a good number of people behind him. I think

they will get rid of her. I think the Government, to paraphrase

Churchill, will zoo the decent thing after exhausting all options, of the

European elections a reshuffle. The culture department has gone from a

baulk water in haul to one of the most politically sensational jobs

because of its proximity to the Leveson issue. She has to be

replaced by someone Lily skillful and substantial. Mr Cameron is not

short of smart women? Nikki Morgan, the education department, these are

absolutely outstanding women and the problem that the generation elected

in 2005, Maria Miller generation, there are some really good people

elected in 2010. You are not responsible for hacking into the

culture Department's Twitter account last night? I was out at the time!

They all say that! One so, Maria Miller is like a modern-day Robin

Hood... She robs the poor to help the rich. Which one of us has not

embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it is the lady. You have the perfect

cover. We would not know how to, would we? You cannot tweet from a

mobile device, can you? Play it safe. No, do something dramatic.

Have lots of pledges. Have just a few pledges. Ah, there must be a

Labour policy review reaching its conclusion because everyone has some

free advice for the party about its message and the man delivering it.

Here's Adam. He is well liked by the public don't quite buy him as a

leader. The papers say he is in hock to the unions and the party has a

lead in the polls but it is not solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That

is what they said Winnie who lost the 1982 election. The whole country

deserves better and we will work to ensure that the day will come when

with the Labour government, the country will get better. Someone who

was there can see some spooky parallels. The important lesson from

1992 is it cannot rest on your laurels and hope for the best, you

cannot sit on a lead of seven points because the election narrows that

and you cannot rely on the government not getting its act

together because the Conservative Party was well funded and organised,

the double whammy posters, the tax bombshell, but incredibly effective

and the message was unified and they beat us on the campaign. The lesson

for Labour today is this lead will evaporate quite possibly over the

next few months and we might go into the election behind in the polls.

But Ed Miliband is getting conflicting advice about how to

avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be cautious and then, the idea that

Labour can squeak into office with just 35% of the vote, which worries

some people. Each month, the Labour Party meets around the country and

last week, everybody spoke about the dangers of this 35% strategy. They

were increasingly unhappy and it is very important that those people

around the leader naturally have a duty to protect him and they make

sure he gets this message that while there is total support for him, they

do want this key year in the run-up to the General Election to be

putting out an alternative which we can defend on the doorstep. The

doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his concession speech is crammed with

Spanish back hackers. The old Labour offices are no a budget hostel.

Labour headquarters is down the road and they are putting the finishing

touches to a speech Ed Miliband will give this week about the cost of

living and I am told he will drop hints about new policies in juicy

areas like housing, low pay, growth and devolving power. As for the

charge that they are not radical enough, his people say they want to

be bold but they have to be credible as well. They say that Labour is

more united than it has ever been but there has been some grumbling

that the cost of living campaign is not the same as a vision for the

country. And that Ed Miliband was not statesman-like enough at Prime

Minister's Questions and one figure who sat at the same table in the

Neil Kinnock years summed it up like this. Things are OK but it feels

like we're playing for the draw. Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline

Flint joins me now for the Sunday Interview. This 35% victory

strategy, it does not sound very ambitious? I am campaigning to win

this election with a majority government and everybody else around

the table is also. But we want to go to every corner of the country and

win votes for Labour and win seats, that is what we are working towards.

To avoid last time, the coalition bartering. But that 35% is a victory

strategy so are you saying there is no 35% strategy and that no one at

the heart of Labour is not arguing for this? We are working to win

around the country and to win all of those battle ground seats and we

must have a strategy that appeals to a cross-section of the public but

within that, that broad group Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You

could do that with 35% of the vote? There is lots of polling and

everyone looks at this about what we need to do to get seats and we want

to have a comprehensive majority at the next election to win to govern

this country. Last week, we have been reading reports of splits in

the party over policy and on tactics, even strategy. A struggle

for control of the General Election manifesto, we are told. What are you

arguing over? I said on the committee and just listening to the

film before, it is about being radical but also credible and we are

talking about evolution and that is an important subject but we are also

united and to be honest, in 2010 people were writing us off saying we

would turn on ourselves and that has not been the case. We are not

arguing about the fundamentals, we are discussing the policies that are

coming up with different colleagues and talking about how we can make

sure they are presented to the public and that is part of a

process. That is a discussion, not disagreement. The Financial Times,

which is usually pretty fair, reports a battle between Ed

Miliband's radical instincts and the more business fiscal conservatism of

Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am for radical change, I am for energy

and I believe strongly we must be formed the market and people might

portray that as anti-business but this is about more competition and

transparency and others coming into this market so our policy on this is

radical, not excepting the status quo. It is also for business.

Opinion polls show that few people regard Ed Miliband as by Minister

material -- Prime Minister material. That has been true since he became

leader. And in some cases, they have been getting worse. Why is that?

Opinion polls say certain things about the personalities of leaders,

David Cameron is not great either. And they were not great when he was

in opposition. At this stage, he was getting 49% as Prime Minister real

material and Ed Miliband, 19. -- Prime Minister material. When you

look at certain questions that the public is asked about who you think

you would trust about being fair in terms of policy towards Britain, who

understands the cost of living crisis, they very much identify with

Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the polls. Ed Miliband has made that

happen. We have one more councillors, we have been running in

by-elections and we have held this government over the barrel over six

months on energy prices. That is to do with his leadership. The more

that voters save him, the less they seem convinced. In 2011, he had been

leader for one year, and only 11% regarded him as weird, by 2014, that

was 41%. Look at that! Look at that weirdness! What people need is to

know where the Labour Party stands on fundamental issues. And in those

areas, particularly the cost of living and fairness and people being

concerned that we are entering into a period where people will be worse

for the first time ever at the end of the Parliament, these things are

important and Ed Miliband is part of our success. Definitely. I think

this is ridiculous, to be fair, he is not a politician that says, I am

dying with the Arctic monkeys, I know who is the number one. He did

not play that game. -- down. He is not either there to portray himself

as someone who was with the children, I know everything about

popular culture. His authenticity is the most important thing. People do

not think he is authentic, unless they think we were at is authentic.

Is it true that his staff applaud him when he comes back after giving

even a mediocre speech? I have never heard that. I have never heard about

him being applauded. And I am pleased to applaud him with he makes

speeches, I have given him a standing ovation. You have to do

that because the cameras are rolling! No, he made a good speech.

Five minutes without notes. It took a long time to memorise I don't

blame him! The cost of living. Focusing on that, it has paid

dividends. But inflation is falling and perhaps collapsing, unemployment

is falling faster than anybody thought, as we can see. Wages are

rising, soon faster than prices. Retail sales are booming, people

have got money in their pockets. Isn't the cost of living crisis

narrative running out of steam? I do not think so and I should say that I

welcome any sign of positive changes in the economy, if anybody gets a

job in Doncaster, I am pleased by the end of this Parliament families

will be over ?900 worse off because of tax and benefit changes and the

working person is ?1600 worse off and it is the first government since

the 1870s where people will be at the end of the Parliament. We

believe the government made wrong choices that lead the rich off at

the expense of those on middle and lower incomes. -- let the rich. The

average family ?794 worse off from tax and benefit changes. That has

been backed up. They are those figures. But he has skewed these

figures by including the richest, where the fall in tax and the

penalty they pay is highest. If you take away the richest, it is nowhere

near that figure. Everybody agrees and even the government and

knowledges that at the end of their tenure in Parliament, people will be

worse off. 350,000 extra people who would desperately like full-time

work who are working part-time and 1 million young people unemployed and

the reason the cost of living has a residence is people feel that. I was

in a supermarket and at Doncaster and someone summed this up, he said

I work hard and at the end of the week, beyond paying bills, I have

got nothing else. If you take away the top 10% who are losing over

?600,000, the average loss comes down to around ?400, less than half

of what you claim. That figure is totally misleading. These are the

figures from the IFS. It still shows... Whatever way you shape

this, people will still be worse off, families worse off because of

these changes to tax and benefits and working people because wages

have not kept up with prices. Your energy portfolio, you back the

enquiry into the big six companies and you intend to go ahead with the

price freeze and reconfigure the market even before it reports. If

you win, this is a waste of time? Whilst we have had this process

before the announcement, we always feel if it goes that way, there

might be areas we have not thought of that the enquiry will also draw

attention to that we might want to add on. You are right, our basic

reforms for the new regulator, to separate generation supply, we will

pursue that. What happens if this report concludes that your plans are

not correct? You will still go ahead? I don't think so. Actually,

if you look at the report that Ofgem produced, some of the issues Labour

has been drawing attention to like vertical integration, they cover

that. I was asking about the Competition Commission? The report

last week is a result of working together and I think it is clearly

accepted in this sector, look at SSE last week, they will separate the

business. We are pushing at the open door. It has already pulled out of

gas. So it follows if you freeze energy prices across the market, it

might be the right thing to do but there will be a cost in terms of

jobs and investment, correct? Well, I met with SSE last weekand the

chief executive and talked about these issues. The jobs changes are

partly about them looking at how they could be more efficient as a

company. On offshore wind that wasn't really to do with the price

freeze. That was more to do with issues around confidence in that

area and therefore willing to put the money into it, as well as

technical issues as well But there'll be job losses. Is that a

price worth paying? We believe the reason we are having a price freeze

is these companies have been overcharging customers and haven't

been investing in their organisations and making them more

efficient. I do not believe a price freeze is linked to job losses.

These companies do need to be more efficient. Goal for all of us is

realising the fantastic opportunity for more jobs and growth from an

energy sector that has certainty going forward. That's what Labour

will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank you.

It's 1130 and you're watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to

viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

Coming up here in 20 Hello, and on the Sunday Politics

Wales: Nick Clegg says the Liberal Democrats are the party of

devolution and of Europe - we're at the Welsh Lib Dem Spring Conference.

And after the director general of the BBC said English-language

programming in Wales has been in decline, I've been speaking to the

corporation's boss in Wales. We're in the thick of spring

conference season. This weekend the Welsh Liberal Democrats are meeting

in Newport. Later today, Welsh Lib Dem leader Kirsty Williams will

deliver her speech. But yesterday, the party's UK leader Nick Clegg

took centre stage. In his speech, the Deputy Prime Minister committed

the Liberal Democrats to devolving more power to Wales. He said the

recommendations of the Silk Commission would be a blueprint for

the Lib Dems' general election manifesto next year. And in an

interview without political editor Nick Servini, he outlined some of

those plans. Well, I basically endorse the proposals from the

second part of the Silk Commission, which was established not least

because of a push the Lib Dems gave it in government in Westminster to

look across the piece, firstly to see what financial freedoms should

be devolved to Wales and we've decided on that and legislating on

that. And secondly, to set out a vision for greater devolution and a

whole range of other powers from policing to energy concerns and so

on. And what I'm signalling this weekend is that I believe that is

the blueprint, broadly speaking, that we should be endorsing in our

own manifesto for the general election next year. The really big

one is income tax and you could be very influential in this if you are

part of some kind of coalition government after the next general

election. Carwyn Jones is really saying it's a nonstarter unless

there is a better settlement from Westminster to Cardiff Bay. Would

you give him that? Well, I've always been very clear that revisiting,

reopening the way money is allocated to different parts of the UK... You

can't do that in the middle of this repair job to our public finances.

That is going to have to continue for seven years, whoever is in

government after the general election. They will still have to

make savings of a very considerable nature. We can make progress and

that's one of the reasons why Danny Alexander, in the Treasury, has

ensured the differential between Welsh funding and that elsewhere

doesn't widen. He's put a floor. So there are improvements to be made.

In the long-running, one can look at the issue of how funding is fairly

distributed across the UK. I really don't think the time to do that is

when we are still trying to do this repair job to the terrible damage

done to the nation's public finances by the last Labour government. I

want to ask you about what Labour call the Tory war on Wales and it is

the very high-profile criticism, particularly from the Conservatives

in Westminster, about the performance of the Welsh Government.

Privately, some Tories are concerned that it is too negative. Others say

they have a point. I've just heard this morning of really heart-rending

stories of people who want to get a particular cancer treatment which is

available in England and they can't get it in Wales. It is quite right,

whether they are Conservatives, Liberal Democrats or Labour, to say

on behalf of the patients of Wales, the people of Wales, they simply

aren't delivering the kind of support, particularly through the

provision of new medicines which could help people, which are

available just across the way in England. I don't see why the people

of Wales should be short-changed by Labour's stubborn refusal to just

accept what everyone knows is a monumental challenge to the NHS in

Wales. Absolutely on education as well. I am very proud of the fact

that the Liberal Democrats in Westminster have delivered a pupil

premium worth ?2.5 billion to help disadvantaged children in school.

The only reason why there is a version of that in Wales is because

of what Kirsty Williams is insisting on in budget negotiations here in

Wales. Childcare is an example where we are pushing forward with huge

changes in England but there is still, I think, not enough action

here in Wales. Look at the whole issue of health, of childcare, of

skills. On money counts, Labour has been too complacent and the reason

for that is that they have been able to take the people of Wales for

granted for so long because they thought that whatever happens, they

will be constantly re-elected. They need to be challenged. In terms of

your vote in Wales, not just in the European elections but coming up to

the general election, are you concerned about this affected Lib

Dem voters moving to Labour? I'm perfectly familiar with the

allegation made by Labour which is that we have sold out and that

anything that has gone wrong under the sun - if there's a traffic jam,

it's the fault of the Lib Dems. Do you hear that party members? I hear

it from Labour. It is a deeply infantile allegation, given that the

reason why we have to take difficult decisions in the first place is

because Labour monumentally messed up on its watch when it was last in

government. That's why we have to make cuts in savings. But I'm hugely

proud - and I think this message is starting to get through - that

notwithstanding those difficult cuts and savings, we are achieving really

big things that help the people of Wales. Just look at the fact that

the state pension has gone up for people in Wales by the largest cash

amount ever. That's because of the triple lock guarantee which was a

Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment and is now happening.

Just this weekend, just this Sunday, the people are getting what I call a

Sunday supplement on their tax returns. People will see in their

pay packets for the first time as of today, you pay no income tax on the

first ?10,000 you. That takes lots of people in Wales out of income tax

altogether. -- the first ?10,000 you earn. That has come straight from

the front page of the Liberal Democrat manifesto of the last

election into the pay packets of millions across the country. People

are starting to recognise that and I hope that's why more and more people

will recognise that we did the right thing by going into government and

the right thing to act as fairly as we have. I want to finish on a few

individual matters. First of all, one relating to problems with

current coalition government and Maria Miller, regarding her

expenses. Should she resign? I think Maria Miller has explained herself.

I think the report of the parliamentary committee has done its

work. All the other issues to do with her position - and, indeed, to

do with the behaviour of her office, alleged or not - is entirely

a matter for the Prime Minister. It's quite right for me to leave the

Prime Minister to make those decisions and speak for himself. My

final point was a big row that has developed between the Welsh

Government and you in the UK government about who is going to pay

for the election vocation of the South Wales valleys network. Have

you been involved and where do you stand at the? -- the

electrification. I have spoken to the First Minister about it directly

and I'm afraid he is simply trying to reinvent history. We could not

have been clearer that the Westminster government made a clear

commitment to a lecture by the mainline to Swansea -- to electrify.

But there was an agreement about how the Valley lines would take place

which was to do with the franchises and the borrowing powers related to

those franchises which is the responsible as he of the Welsh

Government. We wrote that in letters. It wasn't challenged at the

time or afterwards and I do think it is rather cynical of the First

Minister now to turn round and somehow claim that promises were

made to cover the expense of that electrification when it was clearly

and unambiguously stated that this would be something where the UK

Government would play our role, at least in the electrification of the

mainline, but the finance of the mainline in the valleys would be the

result of devolution. We can go over to the Lib Dem conference now and

talk to Nick. Mr Clegg making his conservation to the war of words

between Wales and Westminster on rail electrification. Yes, he isn't

the first senior government minister to do this. I interviewed George

Osborne at the Port Talbot steelworks last week and he said

something similar. It was interesting what Nick Clegg said as

a Liberal Democrat because the last couple of years, the Lib Dems have

acted as a bit of a conduit between the Conservatives in London and

labour in Cardiff if there are any issues. I think it's worth

reflecting on the choice of language he used. Here we have the Deputy

Prime Minister of Britain accusing the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, of

cynically trying to reinvent history. He didn't accuse him of

lying but I think on most people's definition, he came pretty close to

it. Another war of words between the Welsh and UK governments on the NHS.

We'll Kirsty Williams try to muscle in on that when she delivers her

speech later? -- will Kirsty Williams. Yes, without doubt. She

will launch a highly critical attack of the Welsh Government's

performance on health and education. This is very much Kirsty Williams

territory. We get UK government ministers coming to Wales to do

this. She does it on a weekly basis at First Minister's Questions. It

will be interesting to see how she deals with what Labour are

describing as the Tory war on Wales I was talking about with Nick

Clegg. And what she will talk about is, in a way, likening it to a

family. So within a family, it's OK to criticise Wales, but she is an

easy and uncomfortable about some of the criticism on Wales that is

happening now from London, in the London press etc. But she will say a

lot of it is based on fact and actual statistics and the health

indicators and the targets. I think Kirsty Williams and, more broadly,

the party have a lot of challenges this weekend. They have got to try

to get over this problem they will face on the doorstep because of

their association with the Conservatives in the coalition, not

just in the European elections but the general election in just over a

year. What they've got to try to get across is the difference they've

made in coalition. So a lot of the talk this weekend has been about the

raising of the personal allowance on income tax, the triple lock on the

pensions. And I think on another matter, two big messages from the

weekend are a highly critical attack on the Welsh Government and yet, in

the same breath, calling for more powers for the Welsh Government.

Now, I know there is a difference between the permanent constitutional

settlement and the record of the existing Welsh Government which can

be replaced and kicked out every five years. But I'm not sure, in

terms of the public out there, whether they really make that

difference and whether a lot of people would just say, in a way, why

should the Welsh Government be given more powers if they're not

performing in areas like health and education? That's one of the areas

she will really try to deal with. You've been speaking to her this

morning. It seems she wants the Assembly's health committee to take

evidence from the military about the NHS in Wales. What's this about? She

talks about this media onslaught on Wales and Welsh services and we got

a good example today because the Sun Sunday is talking about war veterans

from Afghanistan being caught up in weights that are too long for

surgery. The most senior doctor in the Army, General air Marshal Paul

Evans, has called for those veterans to be treated in England rather than

Wales because of the delays. The Welsh Government are denying there

is any extra delay for war veterans and Wales. The chair of the health

committee in a radio interview this morning refused to commit to calling

Paul Evans in front of the health committee, which is the main body

that scrutinises the Welsh Government on health matters, but

I've just spoken to Kirsty Williams, who is a member of that committee,

and she says she will call for Paul Evans to come and give evidence in

front of that committee and, at some stage, try to get to the bottom of

whether there is any truth in these allegations relating to veterans in

Wales. Nick, good to talk to you. The BBC has been the subject of some

debate in Cardiff Bay this week. AMs - including the assembly's Presiding

Officer - have criticised mistakes in its coverage of devolution.

The corporation's director-general Lord Hall was in the Bay, too. In a

speech to mark 50 years of BBC Cymru Wales, he said English-language

programmes in and for Wales have been in decline for a decade.

Earlier, I spoke to the director of BBC Cymru Wales, Rhodri Talfan

Davies. I asked him whether Lord Hall was right, that the BBC Wales

had protected journalism but other things had suffered as a

consequence. Yeah, I think Tony was recognising the financial reality.

We've lost about 20% of funding to English-language TV over the last

six or seven years and there are consequences. We took a very

deliberate decision, the right decision, to protect our journalism

and news, politics and current affairs programmes. But clearly in

other areas, it's not as rich as we would like to see. And there's a

paradox here, of course. BBC Wales's English-language programming is

enjoying historic success. Audiences at a ten year high, Radio Wales at a

ten year high. So I think there is a challenge and I recognise the

challenge and Tony is right to identify it. I think the question

for us all now is to think very broadly about the television service

that Wales needs. And there is an opportunity in the run-up to the

renewal of the BBC's next charter to have that debate. You say it was the

right decision but some people may be wondering whether the speech by

Tony Hall isn't a sign of regret by the BBC that it's put so much

emphasis on journalism at the expense of all the other things it

does. Well, I think Tony can see it was absolutely the right decision to

protect our journalism. I think what he's recognising is that the UK is

changing. Irrespective of what happens, regardless of what happens,

in Scotland in the next few months, regional, national ties are

intensifying. The BBC is going to have to think very carefully and

thoughtfully about how it enables national self-expression, if you

like, in this new devolved UK. And I think that's what he was fighting a

debate on in the speech he gave. It's not just the BBC that is under

pressure - the commercial sector is as well. Is there a danger of

falling into this trap where the BBC, or BBC Wales in particular,

tries to be everything to everyone and never really attains the level

of excellence in any particular sphere that you might want to see?

Well, there might be but I think there is absolutely room for us to

grow our contribution in areas like drama, comedy, entertainment. And I

think the key thing that Tony is signalling is a desire for a broad

base. It's very easy for us to talk about broadcasting in Wales through

the prism of either news or the Welsh language. And, actually, we

need to think about how we serve the 80% of the population who don't

speak Welsh and who don't just see their relationship with the BBC

through that news lens. They want comedy, they want drama of the

standard of Hinterland. They want documentaries, like Hill Farmers

going out last week. There's plenty of quality from BBC Wales but

perhaps there isn't the breadth I would like to see. Has that 80% been

let down? Well, I think Tony has been recognising that there is a

consequence and in some programme areas we are not sufficiently

capturing some aspects of our cultural and social life in Wales.

And we are going to have to think, I think, very carefully about how we

do address that deficit and Tony was inviting us to do just that. On the

other hand, if it ain't broke... You say yourself that audience

appreciation levels are very high. People in in Wales watch and listen

to more of the BBC than in other parts of the UK. Shouldn't that be a

sign to Tony Hall that we're on the right track? Well, I think it's a

sign to everybody that there is a very significant demand for

programming that speaks to Wales, that helps people make sense of

Wales. If you think about very different programmes - Hinterland,

Call Centre resuming next week, Hill Farmers, Country Midwives. There is

a broad range of programmes from BBC Wales and audiences each and every

time say they value those programmes, they like seeing Wales

reflected. It tells them something about their own backyard. And I

think they're telling us they want to see more. So if it's a question

of redressing the balance, how do you do that? Because there is no

more money around. Isn't some part of the BBC going to have to be cut

to fund the extra things that you want to do? I think we need a broad

debate about this. There is a moment coming in the next 18 months, two

years, when the BBC will begin discussions around its next charter

and we're going to have to look at that charter within the context of a

change in UK. There's no blank cheque right now. People have seen

the decision to close BBC Three as a broadcast channel. That's a sign of

the financial challenges we are facing. But I think it is

significant the director-general has identified an issue in Wales,

particularly around our English-language output, and, in a

sense, is inviting us all to think very carefully about the national

service we operate. And that's all from me this week. On

next week's programme we'll hear about the Welsh Conservative Spring

conference as they meet in Llangollen. In the meantime, you can

catch up on all the day's news on our online services in English and

Welsh and there are regular news bulletins on Radio Wales and Radio

Cymru. Wales Today is on BBC One Wales at 6.50pm and Newyddion is on

S4C at 5.50pm. chair next week. And with that, back

to Andrew. Welcome back and time now to get more from our panel. So they

can justify their meagre patents. This cost of living mantra will last

all the way until the election. Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is

onto something and for most of this Parliament, inflation has

outstripped wages. That is going to go the other way and wages will

rise, to which you say Ed Miliband has nothing to say. He says if you

think people are going to feel better in the blink of an eye, you

are a Conservative and do not understand the depth of this and he

is taking the message from a presidential election in America in

2012 and make Romney was ahead on some of the economic indicators but

Barack Obama was ahead on the key one, do you believe this candidate

will make your family's life better? The message that Ed Miliband

will try to say is the next election is about whose side are you on? And

he believes Labour will be on the side of more voters than

conservatives. It would be crazy for Labour not to talk about the cost of

living because even if wages exceed inflation next year, it is not as if

voters will walk around feeling like Imelda Marcos, they will still feel

as if they were struggling and not just compared... Retail sales are

slowing? That is not the sign of palpable disparity. Circumstances

are better than three years ago but not better than five years ago. The

Reagan question will still be employed, are you better off than at

the last election? But things in America were actually getting worse

when he asked that. I covered that election, that is why it resonated

and they did get worse. The Ayatollah had quadrupled the price

of oil. This is based on things getting relatively better, after a

very long wait, so the cost of living critique will have to adapt?

It will but it gets out of a very sticky spot and the IFS says wages

will not outstrip inflation and by that time they can start talking

about other things, plans for the railways and tuition fees and at the

moment, everything is up for grabs. Labour know that every time they

talk about something they want to do, the question is, how do you pay

for it? They can talk about the economy and they don't have

substantial things to say. Is it true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was

going to make a major announcement on benefit cheats? Or something to

do with that this morning? But he decided against it because of the

tobacco over Maria Miller? It would be very odd to go on to The Andrew

Marr Show to have a chat and see what he is having for lunch. Patrick

went from the Guardian said he was going to set out higher financial

penalty phase for providing inaccurate information in claims.

This is a bad day to do that, given that MP expenses are treated far

more lenient the than any one from Joe public. That would be

fascinating, if true. And he is making a very big speech on well for

tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick went at the Guardian, he has proper

sized on welfare matters and he tends to know what is going on. But

it would be deeply unfortunate if that was the message today. How can

he make a speech that has anything about cracking down on benefit

claimants? Not today but I am not sure tomorrow. Do you get the

impression that nobody in both main parties is very confident of winning

in 2015? I column last week said the result, the most likely result from

one year on is another hung parliament and which government

results from that depends on the mathematical specifics of whether

the Tories can do a deal as well as Labour, leaving everything in the

hands of Nick Clegg or whether one party can do a straightforward deal

but I do not detect any sense of exuberance or confidence in either

camp. And the Tories are still shooting themselves over losing the

boundary commission reforms because that was going to net them 20 seats

and they lost that because they messed up the House of Lords reform

and there are still furious with themselves. The former US President,

George W Bush, has been a busy boy and here at the Sunday Politics we

thought you'd like to see the results of his artistic endeavours.

Time for the gallery. I was a prize to find myself saying,

some of these are not bad! -- surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like

the one of Tony Blair but his early ones of dogs, to be in the presence

of the master is to see his portrait of a Joanne Love. He is not of the

Turner prize but I was surprised. He gets the mask of Vladimir Putin,

also Tony Blair. I was impressed that he did not allow personal or

political grudges to influence his artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes

out of this incredibly well! And Angela Merkel comes out

astonishingly well. Quite generous as well. Tony Blair is the best one

and the reason is he had the closest relationship with them and he has

talked about this portrait, saying he was quite fond of him and you can

see that. These are awful, they would not get you an A-level but you

must admire him to have the guts to do this, and display them publicly!

An A-level? Just doing joined up numbers gets you that these days!

What do you do when you retire? This is less embarrassing than some of

the other things people have done. As good as Churchill? I don't

know... No! Churchill was brilliant! And on that! That's all for today.

Tune into BBC Two every day at lunchtime this week for the Daily

Politics. And we'll be back at the later time of 2:30pm next Sunday

after the London Marathon. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.