Browse content similar to 21/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for | :00:16. | :00:54. | |
Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
But what about Home Rule for England? | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
The Shadow Welsh Secretary at the Labour conference says | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
the party will respond to the First Minister's complain | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
that Wales is being short-changed. powers and more freedom to spend. | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
But what is the next devolution step for the capital? With me, the best | :01:40. | :01:48. | |
and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote, | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
there was nothing about English-only votes. It was unconditional? The | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
issue. That was very cautious. -- cautiously. These proposals will not | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says, | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away | :03:12. | :03:28. | |
these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism. | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night, | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
but it's not clear you will get either before the general election. | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is. | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws. | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should | :05:58. | :05:59. | |
probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment. | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
something called the Barnett Formula. | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett. | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
And it's how the UK government decides how much | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
It's controversial, because it's led to public spending | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England. | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that. | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab. | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them, | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
and if anything was counter-productive to the overall | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK, | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
oil revenues it sends to London. Scotland is only getting back on | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is, | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people? | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for | :10:56. | :10:56. | |
joining us. The man responsible | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
announcements, and he gave us another on Friday | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with | :11:13. | :11:14. | |
the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole | :11:15. | :11:38. | |
place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare | :11:58. | :12:09. | |
Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night, | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around | :12:30. | :12:39. | |
five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say, | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well. | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England, | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon? | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues, | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work. | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it, | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not | :15:39. | :15:47. | |
really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city. | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away, | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland, | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right, | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy. | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically, | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed. | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
carried the Yes Campaign so far, almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
put his Scottish Sun behind you, would have that made the difference? | :19:32. | :19:40. | |
If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers, I | :20:07. | :20:16. | |
would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if | :20:30. | :20:40. | |
you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads. | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for | :22:32. | :22:39. | |
the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25% | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the | :23:07. | :23:17. | |
opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday, | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee, | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song, | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me. | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you? | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
chore. I'm not saying they didn't do it properly, I am sure they did. But | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it | :24:42. | :24:52. | |
will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! Thanks for joining us. Great | :24:53. | :25:02. | |
pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an | :25:22. | :25:23. | |
exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates. | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit. | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
terms of what is left and right. I think they see it in terms of what | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out, | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
majority of your viewers. I don't think your viewers think the idea of | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
scrap Trident, not party policy? It isn't. | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
the time of the next general election, not including current MPs. | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our | :28:54. | :28:55. | |
Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges. | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in | :29:44. | :29:53. | |
terms of who runs the next government. That one of your | :29:54. | :29:55. | |
candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer? | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars. | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
you need a constitutional conversation where you have to | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
discuss whether English people voting on English matters is | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice, | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs. | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales, | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -- | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
looked at what the government has done which is having already | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well, | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it. | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
benefits. How much do they keep? I cannot give you an exact figure. Why | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60% and they will not keep most of this | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them? | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
said, the economy is recovering, great, but we know, at the moment, | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option. And | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me. | :37:37. | :37:38. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
First though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :37:52. | :38:08. | |
Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales. | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
As we digest Scotland's No, the chairman of the | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
Commons' Welsh Affairs Committee says allowing Welsh and Scottish MPs | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
to continue to vote on English affairs is "wrong and divisive". | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
We'll hear what shadow Welsh secretary Owen Smith makes of that. | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
The leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats wants | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
a cross-party consensus, but with splits emerging in Westminster, | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
Now the political parties are deciding how to respond to | :38:30. | :38:39. | |
The ramifications of the referendum are being felt right | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
After a long campaign, the emotion was palpable. | :38:45. | :38:54. | |
In the end, the No camp had a bigger margin than many polls predicted. | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
Yet, more than 1.6 million Scots voted to leave the United Kingdom. | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
It is absolutely right that a new and fair settlement for Scotland | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
should be accompanied by a new and fair settlement that applies to | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
In Wales there are proposals to give the Welsh government | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
I want Wales to be at the heart of the debate on how to make our United | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
The First Minister played his part in the Scottish referendum campaign, | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
He says Wales deserves something from London. | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
Whitehall has to be careful not to give the impression that | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
in order to get noticed you need 25 years of war or you need | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
It is absolutely right to point out that it is a very dangerous message | :39:47. | :39:55. | |
to send that if you cause a problem then you get noticed. | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
I think it is absolutely right to say that we in Wales, | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
because we have had neither of these things, we deserve to be listened to | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
and it is important that we have a strong voice around that table. | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
The First Minister has joined his party in opposing | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
David Cameron's plan for English-only votes in Parliament. | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
The Welsh Secretary says the UK government is talking to | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
the First Minister, even though they did not hear his plea for talks | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
I had a conversation with Carwyn Jones myself | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
and the Prime Minister has spoken to the First Minister as well, and both | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
There's a lot we agree on in terms of how we make sure that Wales' | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
voice is heard, giving reality to that commitment that Wales is at the | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
heart of the debate, but also ideas that Carywn Jones shared in terms | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
There is clearly got to be a lot more discussion in the days, | :40:43. | :40:50. | |
The leader of Plaid Cymru wanted Scotland to vote Yes and says it is | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
not just the present occupiers of Downing Street who should listen | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
The test for the Welsh First Minister is what appears in Labour's | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
It is very warm words from him this morning but I know for | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
a fact that there are difficulties within the Labour Party in terms | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
The wording in the manifesto will be his great test on this. | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
Constitutional reform is flavour of the month. | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
Among visitors to Abergavenny Food Festival yesterday, David Davis, | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
the local MP who chairs the Welsh Affairs Committee in Westminster. | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
He told me David Cameron is right, English matters should be decided | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
Allowing Welsh MPs like him to vote on them is divisive | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
I asked him whether the response to the Scottish vote had been ad hoc. | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
When it was set up in the first place, we were told that | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
devolution would be a process not an event, and the clear implication | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
was that extra powers would keep on coming, although nobody could | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
We had further powers in 2005 in a referendum. | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
And similar things happened in Scotland. | :42:13. | :42:14. | |
I think the government recognises that can no longer go on. | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
We have to have a lasting settlement and they are going to think through | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
all of the implications, which essentially means England. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
I do not think they needed to go down this route in the first place. | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
The only way to keep the union together would be to have | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
some sort of federal solution which is fair to England, Scotland, | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
It may even mean giving some extra powers to Wales, which is something | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
I would not like to see, but it is a better option than further moves | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
towards independence coming from Wales and from Scotland. | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
I think we need to lock everything in place finally. | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
What is your position on the way that extra powers were | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
offered to Scotland later in the referendum campaign? | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
I thought it was always clear that extra powers would go to Scotland | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
What happened in the last few days is that the party leaders went out | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
of their way to remind everyone of that fact, so for those of us who | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
had been following the double debate closely, it was not a secret. | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
You do not think it was a panic measure? | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
I think they decided at the last minute that perhaps people | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
in Scotland were not as aware of it as they might have been. | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
Those of us who follow our politics closely were aware that | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
Scotland would get extra powers if they voted No but perhaps that | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
had got lost somehow in the debate, and I think they were right to | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Some say it is not proper for the Prime Minister | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
and other two main party leaders to offer more devolution in this way. | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
As a Conservative MP, were you consulted? | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
No, I wasn't, but it was always something that was going to happen. | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
What I did make very clear before the referendum was that I do | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
not believe we can simply hand over further powers to Scotland and Wales | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
without resolving the English question and the whole future | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
What had disturbed me is that under successive governments we have been | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
too quick to hand out powers to the Scottish parliament and | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
to Wales without thinking to ourselves, | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
My frustration is that every time in Wales... | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
First of all the Assembly was set up, then extra legislative powers, | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
Each time I heard people saying, this is it, we have everything we | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
need, we can just get on with the job, and each time within months, | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
or sometimes within days, people were calling for more powers. | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
Carywn Jones used this phrase, we have all the tools in the box, | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
but even before the referendum he was saying if Scotland get this we | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
There has been no discipline, no thinking it through, no thought | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
Labour MPs are jumping up and down saying we cannot do | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
They opened a Pandora's box in the first place and pushed | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
for devolution and this is precisely what I predicted would | :45:06. | :45:07. | |
If we do not do something about this, Scotland will get extra | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
powers, Wales will get them within a year or two, Scotland will go | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
for another referendum in about 15 years and possibly win. | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
Wales will want one ten years later, and before I shuffle | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
off this mortal coil, I will be living under a completely different | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
The only way of stopping this is a proper federal settlement. | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
It sounds like you might agree we need a constitutional | :45:38. | :45:39. | |
I do not agree with Carwyn on very much. | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
The English question is vitally important and a part of that. | :45:47. | :45:55. | |
The Labour Party, your party, is trying to decide what goes | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
in its manifesto on the question of more powers for the Assembly. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
I thought it was a waste of time in the first place. | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
They spent about ?1 million going around empty village halls trying to | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
gather evidence for a report that we all knew they were going to write. | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
I knew what was going to be in the report before it came out, | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
which was going to be recommendations of vastly increased | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
Should those recommendations be there? | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
I do not like the idea of handing over further powers to the Welsh | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
Assembly but if somebody is going to say, what are we trying to achieve | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
And we have a constitutional settlement that locks us into | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
the union instead of destabilising it, reinforces it, I suppose I | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
might have to go along with that as the least worst option. | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
Finally, the powers that be in all parties | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
have begun to realise we cannot keep on handing powers out left, | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
right and centre without anything going to England and I welcome that, | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
William Hague is going to be presiding over a committee. | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
David Cameron has talked about doing it in tandem and I think that is | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
something that will reinforce the union rather than undermine it, | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
Labour is meeting in Manchester for its annual conference, where many | :47:17. | :47:25. | |
The party's shadow Welsh Secretary, Pontypridd MP Owen Smith, is there, | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
and he's faced some questions from our parliamentary correspondent. | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
Hello from Manchester and the start of the UK party conference season. | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
The last conference before a general election is usually a | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
chance for political parties to set out their stall, explain why their | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
leader is really the Prime Minister in waiting, but of course events in | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
Scotland have cast a shadow over the start | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
I am sure Owen Smith will forgive me if I start by looking at Scotland. | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
Quite clear that Labour will offer Scotland extensive powers. | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
What we don't know is exactly what you would offer Wales | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
We know Labour is already committed to tax varying powers for Wales | :48:09. | :48:17. | |
and we have supported the Wales Bill. | :48:18. | :48:18. | |
We have also said we will extend that. | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
We will extend the same powers to Wales in respect of taxation so that | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
is up to 15p in the pound in all of the tax bands, the ability to set | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
a progressive top rate of tax, but the 50p rate back on people | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
Wales should have the same model of powers as Scotland, | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
Wales ought to be more like Scotland in terms of the powers it's got | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
but the crucial thing we have said, Ed Miliband announced that a couple | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
of days ago, we need a bottom-up convention, we need a process. | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
Carwyn Jones has been ahead of the curve on this. | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
For people to talk about what they want out of it. | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
Tax varying powers, you sound almost enthusiastic. | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
Would that trigger the referendum to bring those tax varying powers? | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
We have said all along what we need to do is make | :49:15. | :49:16. | |
sure that Wales would be better off as a result of this and this is | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
not clear because Wales does not have oil revenues as Scotland has. | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
Wales does have big needs and we do not have a big tax base, so if this | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
were going to replace Barnett funding for Wales than that would | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
We need to do a careful analysis and we're never going to commit to | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
something that sees the Welsh people worse off. | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
No, the second thing, we would have to have a referendum. | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
If we decided Wales was going to be better off, and we would have to get | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
into power and see whether Wales can stand on its own two feet in terms | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
of tax, then we need a referendum because the people of Wales have | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
never been asked if they would like Wales to have tax varying powers. | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
You think you would trigger that referendum? | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
Because the signs have been that you seem to discover all these hurdles | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
that would come just before the need to trigger that referendum. | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
No, I think we could trigger a referendum but we have always been | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
really honest with people that we would make sure Wales was going to | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
be better off and we don't know presently. | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
We do know that Wales presently raises around ?16 billion to ?18 | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
billion in taxes and spend is double and we need to be pretty certain we | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
are not asking people with the shallowest pockets in Britain to | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
We would need to be clear Wales was going to be better off. | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
The vote in Scotland was a vote for people sticking together, | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
not breaking apart, and what we do not want its tax | :50:47. | :50:48. | |
We want to augment the ability for the government to deliver | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
Carwyn Jones says that until funding is sorted out you | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
A bit difficult, isn't it, when you have signed up Ed Miliband | :51:01. | :51:08. | |
has signed up, to continuing ar funding formula that | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
Carwyn Jones says short-changes Wells by ?3 million a year? | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
No, I don't think that is difficult because you need | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
You need a way in which we address this shortfall for Wales. | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
That ?150 million to ?300 million shortfall that comes about to do | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
with population growth in Wales and public spending in England and | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
We have not said exactly how we are going to do it, but if we win in | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
May next year we will fill the Barnett gap. | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
You talk about this constitutional convention. | :51:44. | :51:45. | |
You do not need a grand convention to say that it is | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
unfair that people like you can still vote on English issues. | :51:50. | :51:51. | |
I think we can look at the way in which English MPs have an extra | :51:52. | :51:59. | |
level of scrutiny and accountability in English only issues. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
The only reason this is on the table, I suspect the Tories have | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
been planning this for the last two years, is that Cameron is running | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
scared from backbenchers, he is worried that Farage is nipping | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
at his heels, and this is a clear attempt to unfairly exploit the No | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
vote in Scotland and try to cement power for the Tories at Westminster. | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
It is a terrible thing to say to the Scottish people that | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
your reward for voting to stay in the union, your reward | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
for backing solidarity, is reduced voice for Scotland in the centre. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
They wanted to stay in the UK and remain as wrong part of the UK, not | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
Is Cameron saying that a Welsh MP or a Scottish MP cannot be | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of this country? | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
That is a recipe for breaking up Britain and sewing great | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
Labour is saying we have to heal these wounds, because they are | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
wounds, and we have to bring people together, and parliament is one of | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
the institutions that binds Britain together so we don't want to | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
disaggregate Parliament, we want to make it stronger | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
in the centre, but we also want to push power to the people. | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
The big announcement in Manchester today from Labour is that a Labour | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
government elected next May would increase the minimum wage over | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
the next Parliament from ?6.50 this October to ?8 | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
So Labour and the Tories don't agree, even though last week both | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
parties and the Liberal Democrats were united in a vow to deliver more | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
The Welsh Lib Dems' leader says Wales needs a cross-party | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
consensus too if there's going to be more devolution here. | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
I think it's clear from what we have seen over the last | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
couple of days that the arguments in Westminster are going to perhaps | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
naturally focus on what happens next for Scotland and what devolution | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
I am very concerned that Wales could be left behind in this debate. | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
I think the best chance that we've got of securing Wales' place in | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
these discussions and moving power out of Whitehall and Westminster to | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
Wales is to ensure where possible we build a consensus and that political | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
leaders across the spectrum in Wales become one voice. | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
That puts us in a much more powerful position if Westminster is hearing | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
one consistent message rather than Welsh politicians squabbling amongst | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
themselves about what should happen next. | :54:37. | :54:45. | |
In the past you said there's too much consensus in Welsh politics. | :54:46. | :54:47. | |
Perhaps we should be more like Scotland weather is not | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
a consensus and there is a much more lively debate. | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
Offering people in Wales real choices is important engendering | :54:55. | :55:06. | |
that sense of enthusiasm about politics, but this is about trying | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
to ensure Wales gets heard in the context of the discussions that are | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
going on in the UK as a whole and we are already seeing that is | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
Let's see if there's any consensus between my studio guests, Cathy | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
Owens, a former Welsh Government special adviser, and Dafydd Trystan | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
There is a mag agreement on a Scotland Bill, talk about timing on | :55:26. | :55:39. | |
how to deal with English foods in Westminster. Where does Wales fit | :55:40. | :55:47. | |
into this? We are getting a few extra powers in this Parliament. In | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
the next Parliament we know we will get that reserve model around the | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
structure of lawmaking, this Barnett plus, about keeping Barnett but | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
making it better for Wales. We do not know if there will be another | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
Wales Bill with powers for Wales and it is the same with the | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
Conservatives who have not said... We are waiting to see general | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
election manifestoes. I think so. It is unclear. Everyone has been | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
energised by what has been going on in Scotland. In terms of the | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
reaction from Westminster, that is the irony, devolution is not | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
devolved, you have not seen any movement towards thinking again the | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
extra powers that are going to be coming to Wales next Parliament. For | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
people like yourself who want more devolution, do you think consensus | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
is the way to go? There's not much consensus in Scotland between the | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
SNP and the other three parties. In Wales there is a chance to build | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
consensus around a significant measure of home rule for Wales with | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
those powers to make a real difference to people was Matt lives | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
in the valleys, those people who are suffering at the moment, from | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
poverty and austerity, those are the powers they need to make that | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
difference. There is a chance for consensus but I have been depressed | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
listening to people saying we are going to beg for a few crumbs from | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
Westminster's table. That is not good enough. People saying that | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
Wales should be rewarded for sticking by the union. We have not | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
been as bothersome to Whitehall and Westminster as Scotland and Northern | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
Ireland. We do not have any bargaining chips in the same way | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
that Scotland have. We are not rich enough to threaten. The nationalist | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
movement is in no way comparable year as strong as it is in Scotland. | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
We are going to have to get the Westminster people to understand | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
this is a message that is being sent, it is not good enough, and we | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
have to do more. We also showed in Scotland that it is about those | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
issues that will make a real difference to people's lives. It is | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
not necessarily about identity. It is about being able to have | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
programmes here that impact on the welfare state, unemployment and all | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
sorts of issues, rather than the police. We have seen the flourishing | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
of democracy in Scotland apparently. The question is, is | :58:26. | :58:32. | |
talking about the constitution and a few more powers, is that going to | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
meet that demand? I do not think it will. You have seen over 10,000 | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
people join pro-independence political parties in the last three | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
days in Scotland. There is a very clear message reinforced by Cathy | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
that if you want Wales' voice to be heard loud and clear you need a | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
strong national party and to be part of that ambitious movement. The way | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
to get what the First Minister wants is to join the national party? There | :59:05. | :59:13. | |
is a failure to capitalise on devolution. That is a factor here. | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
There's more to it. It is about pressure for change. If you want | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
more devolution. We do not have those bargaining chips. People in | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
Wales quite like being part of the union. They do not just like being | :59:29. | :59:37. | |
part of it, there might like there is redistribution of wealth in the | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
centre. It is not perfect but have it gets any worse we are going to | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
have to look again. Some of the issues being talked about are around | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
that. If we get extra powers because we are building a nation around tax | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
and it ends up again less money to spend on things we want to spend it | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
on, we have to look again at what that union is delivering. Opinion | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
polls tend to suggest that people in Wales like the union. Was it a | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
gamble for your party to back Scottish independence so strongly? | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Was there a debate in the party? Not at all. We believe the best people | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
to make decisions about Wales' future are the people of Wales. | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
Likewise in Scotland, the best people to take decisions on | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
defence, welfare, the economy, are the people of Scotland, and that is | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
our principled position. The important thing here, there is a | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
major challenge ahead of all parties to develop a strong and successful | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Welsh economy, something that has not happened in 16 years of | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
devolution. It is a valid view but it is not sure why the majority. We | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
are going to have it leave it there. the Conservative mayor's policy. No | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you. | :01:00. | :01:07. | |
Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit. | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott. | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store. | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws, | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
certainly don't agree with that. I campaign for powers to be given to | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why? | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
get reform in a more federal structure, and even English | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
want real protection in England, vote Conservative, and if you want | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland, | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that. | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in, | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after. | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions, | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that. | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
Put the framework in the White might say I'm not supporting that. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the | :07:15. | :07:24. | |
message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage. You | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
we have to say it will be saved. If you can save all of these bankers | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing, | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour. | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition. | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the | :11:01. | :11:02. | |
next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems, | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
a poll of the Labour candidates, you were watching on the big screen, | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean? | :12:28. | :12:37. | |
You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping | :12:38. | :12:46. | |
comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
useless. my guests. I'll be back here at | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:17. | :13:23. |