08/11/2015 Sunday Politics Wales

As evidence grows that the Russian passenger jet downed over

Egypt's Sinai desert last weekend WAS the target of

a terrorist attack, we look at how Moscow and the West will respond.

We will have the latest from each at and Russia. -- Egypt.

Are we now on the brink of an even more dangerous phase of Islamist

David Cameron says he's ready to lead Britain out of the EU

if he doesn't get what he wants from renegotiation,

Will his list of demands result in a good deal or turn out to be

And the row over a new contract for junior doctors in England

Later in the programme... action,

Falklands veteran Simon Weston says the delay of the report

into the Iraq war is "an insult to the memories of every

And with me, as always, the three journalists that help make this show

the most anticipated TV event since the John Lewis Christmas advert!

It's Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

We're not sure if they'll make you start thinking

But they may well bring a tear to your eye.

So, this week, we'll see what many eurosceptics and europhiles have

been waiting for with all the excitement of a child thinking about

their Christmas wish list, even though it's only early November.

David Cameron will publish his letter to the President of the

European Council setting out the "broad outlines" of what he wants

to achieve from his renegotiation of Britain's EU membership.

The upfront briefing from Ten Downing Street says that

he'll challenge both the in and out campaigns to be more

But, to assuage the eurosceptic majority in his party he'll use his

strongest language yet to say that if he doesn't get what he wants,

Whether they believe him is another matter.

This is what Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has to say this

The British people will not be fobbed off with a set of cosmetic

This is about fundamental change in the direction of travel in the

European Union, to make sure that it works for Britain, and that it is

an effective organisation for all the citizens of Europe, driving our

prosperity and competitiveness in the 21st century.

If we cannot do that, then we will not be able to win a referendum.

That was the Foreign Secretary. Janan Ganesh, is anything happening?

There is a problem the David Cameron, the things he is most

likely to get from his renegotiation are not the things that will move

the average voter, so what he is likely to get our protections for

non-euro countries within the EU, and that will be very technical

institutional stuff, double majority voting and so forth. That is doable,

the Germans don't want a fragmented EU in terms of the currency. Does

your average undecided voter decide on the basis of that? I think they

are more moved by free movement and immigration, maybe even economic

regulation, so the things he is most likely to get may not help him in a

year or 18 months' time when he is campaigning to win a referendum. You

get the feeling he has delayed telling us what he is really looking

for because he is bound to disappoint. Indeed, and he has to be

very careful to ask for things he can get. Three of the main things he

can get, but I don't think he will get the four years' delay for in

work benefits, it is discriminatory and goes against the basic

principles and yet he is asking again. We can only hope he has had a

nod and a wink from 27 other countries that they will agree to

that because if he fails to get it, it will agree to that because if he

fails to get it, it'll renegotiation and it is a good package, so we will

hope it is not a cavalier piece of speaking. What is your take? Philip

Hammond did say some of the changes would be introduced through domestic

legislation and it does look like the ban on EU migrants claiming in

work benefits for four years, the Government will they would thereby

codify some recent European Court judgments that have gone in favour

of the UK and not embedded in treaty change, but the hard language about

treaty change, the reason they are standing soaked up, is George

Osborne is absolutely confident that he is going to get a treaty change

agreement, protections for the Euro outs and Britain will get an opt out

from an ever closer union. George Osborne's the is that the protection

for the Euro outs is the most important thing he can get the

benefit of Britain but he knows politically the campaign, the most

important thing he has to get those migrant benefit restrictions. We

will see what he says on Tuesday, that is when the speech is being

made. A senior US government official is

quoted today by CNN saying they are "99.9% certain" that the 224

passengers aboard the Russian jet which crashed into the Sinai Desert

last Saturday were the victims That's the view in London as well

as Washington and now, A memorial service has been held

today in the Russian city of St Petersburg, where the charter

flight was heading, while Moscow draws up plans to repatriate 80,000

of its holidaymakers from various locations in Egypt, after it

suspended all flights there, following in the wake of Britain's

decision to suspend flights from Sharm el-Sheikh where thousands of

British citizens are still stranded. The downing of the flight is

a tragedy for those who lost their lives, and an inconvenience

for those stuck in Sharm. But its geopolitical significance

will be massive if it represents the emergence of Islamic State,

much better funded and organised than al-Qaeda, as a terrorist group

capable of hitting targets far from In a moment, we will speak to Steve

Rosenberg in St Petersburg. First, we are joined by Sally Nabil from

Sharm el-Sheikh. Does the Egyptian Government Phil Borley get

now? The British were the first to stop flights, the Americans followed

another Russians have banned all flights to Egypt except to get

people out, is it beginning to trouble the Cairo Government? The

Egyptian Government seems to be in a very tight situation, from an

economic perspective. Tourism is very important to the economy, it is

a lifeline to the Egyptian economy, which is already in a bad shape and

the tourism industry depends mainly on Russia and Britain, so the fact

that no more to wrists, from Russia or Britain, will be coming to Egypt

is a huge blow to tourism here and Egypt needs foreign currency and it

depends on tourist spot that mainly, so it is a major blow to the

industry and put the Government in a tight situation. On the other hand,

the way the Egyptians have handled security in Sharm el-Sheikh airport

was a matter of great concern and criticism from different countries

around the world, even the tourists I have spoken to, they told us when

they first arrived, the security measures were a mess, so now the

measures have been tightened, some to wrists I spoke to yesterday told

me it makes them feel better -- some to tourist. If the President Sese

Government is feeling beleaguered in Cairo and will take another economic

hit because of the tourism, can we expect further crackdown on the

Sinai province terrorist groups? It is hard to tell at the moment, but

the Sinai military operation has been going on for nearly two years

now and every now and then, we hear about major attacks carried by

mainly the IS affiliated group called the Sinai province, so the

fact that the group have operated in Sinai the nearly two years, it seems

the insurgency group is still gaining momentum and if it happens

to be true they managed to smuggle a bomb on board the plane, it is a

major blow to the security operators. Sally Nabil, thank you.

Let's go to St Petersburg, we are joined by Steve Rosenberg. Is there

any indication yet of how, assuming that it is shown to be a terrorist

attack, any indication of how Vladimir Putin is going to respond?

No, not yet. I think it is important to remember that despite the growing

suspicion that this was a bomb, the official Kremlin line still is that

it is keeping an open mind about this disaster, it is treating all

theories equally and the Kremlin says the fact that it has suspended

all flights to Egypt does not mean it favours the terror theory over

any other. Having said that, if it is proven to be a bomb, then judging

by the way President Putin has responded in the past to terror

attacks, I think we can expect a forceful response from him. How is

the domestic politics? I know it is hard to tell, because the media is

so controlled by the Kremlin, but is this an opportunity for Mr Putin to

further strengthen his position with a tougher crackdown, or is there

their fear in the Kremlin that having casualties as a result of his

war on terror will not make him very popular? It is an interesting

question. I remember back in 2004, when there was a string of terror

attacks on Russian soil, there were bombs in the Moscow Metro, two

planes bombed out of the sky and the year ended with the school siege in

Beslan, where 330 people were killed. None of that seemed to dent

Vladimir Putin's popularity. Quite the opposite, he used it to

strengthen the power of the Kremlin. Now, you could argue that if this

doesn't prove to have been a bomb, that could undermine the narrative

that the Kremlin has been pushing domestically about its military

operation in Syria. In other words, Russia has been saying it has been

carrying out air strikes in Syria to boost national security in Russia,

to destroy terrorists so they couldn't come to Russia and kill

people there, that narrative will be seriously undermined. But whether

Russians would connect the dots and say, President Putin said we would

be safer but we clearly are not, I don't think that would happen,

because the Kremlin control so tightly the media here, particularly

television, and television is the key to influencing public opinion.

So if the Kremlin was to change the narrative to something more like we

have been attacked, we are the victims of terror, we need to carry

on our battle against international terrorism, I think the Russian

public would support that and from the people I have spoken to on the

streets of St Petersburg this morning, I haven't heard a word of

criticism of Vladimir Putin. Most people have said to me, I understand

Russia is at threat of terror attacks and they don't seem to

connect what may have happened to the Russian air bus with Russia's

military operation in Syria. Steve Rosenberg in St Petersburg.

We're joined now by the foreign affairs analyst Tim Marshall,

Dr Domitilla Sagramoso, an expert in Russian security

And joining us from our Plymouth studio is the

He sits on the Commons Defence Committee, and is

Tim Marshall, if, as the intelligence suggests, this attack

was coordinated with Islamic State leaders in Iraq, and its affiliates

in the Sinai called soon I province, it means Islamic State has

the capability to plot mass casualty attacks outside of Syria and Iraq --

called Sinai province. I think in the future, they will be able to do

it globally and this is the first sign of them doing it outside of the

countries they operate in. The head of the FSB came back the lead met

Putin on Friday and Putin immediately set ground the planes,

that shows us what they truly believe. Britain is third, it is

Russia and Germany and France in the amount of tourists there. President

Sisi has been to Moscow three times since he was elected. He is trying

to pull Russia back from America. So it is difficult for the Egyptians

and Russians to come back out to openly unsaved. So to come back to

your original point, I think it is pretty clear that the Isis affiliate

in Sinai swore allegiance to Isis in Iraq. They are under a lot of

pressure from the Russians, 20% of the bombing was against Syria. They

have told their affiliate in the Sinai, you are the ones who can do

it from you do the operation, they have killed the Russians and the

Russians have to respond, I agree with what the Moscow correspondent

said, Putin does not respond -- not not respond, Putin responds and

response with violence. Johnny Mercer, if what we are saying is

true and it was a planned attack by Islamic State, it takes IS into what

is called full spectrum terrorist activity and it is better financed

than Al-Qaeda, it is better resourced and organised in Syria and

Iraq and Osama Bin Laden ever was sitting in a cave in Afghanistan,

this takes the global war on terrorism to a whole new level.

This threat is existential. You can see, if this is proved to be

something that has originated from so-called Islamic State, you can see

their strategic region. This is why the Prime Minister has been going on

about this for so long. We have to do something about so-called Islamic

State because the threat will only get closer. We see this great

outpouring of humanity with that little boy washed up on a beach. We

have had 30 of our own terrorists massacred in Tunisia.

I understand. Is the British response which the Prime Minister

has not managed to get Pollard to agree to on deploying eight Tornado

jets into Syria, is that really adequate given what you have called

an existential threat? We need to do what we are asked to

do by the coalition. It is not a question of how much manpower or

machinery we are sending but the effect we can achieve on the ground.

We have been asked to provide those Tornado jets because they have a

specific tactical and technical capability to the coalition are

asked when it comes to dynamic targeting within Syria. We should

stand up to that and do our duty, and have the stomach for the fight.

The idea we are asking people to do some mass bombing in Syria with no

strategy, is misinformed. We should have got past this by now.

What does this mean for Russia and Mr Putin?

To a certain extent, this has brought the ball back to Russia. I

would disagree with what the correspondent was saying, that the

Russians will not be particularly affected and critical of Mr Putin's

paper in the Middle East. On the one hand they understand, that is their

argument that the President Assad regime needed to be faced for stock

because it had fallen, then jihadists groups in Damascus and

western parts of the country weather and they understand that.

On the other hand, they will put brakes to any attempt to send ground

troops which I think they are not planning to do either. I imagine he

will have another response to the bombing.

He hasn't done much, Tim Marshall. He has been bombing the other groups

against President Assad. He may now extend the bombing to

Islamic State. If you look at the pattern of

bombing, 80% against the Free Syrian Army, it's changed on Thursday.

There was an increase on bombing on Isis targets and I think you'll see

more of that in coming days. There is no way the Russians will react.

The Russian public, if you look at 9/11 and the reaction of the

American public, lots of things have happened to lots of countries, the

immediate reaction in the first weeks and months is not, our foreign

policy is wrong, but revenge. The most potent of many of the human

emotions. I am certain in the short term the Russian public will support

more action. Your original point, Isis is in Libya, Syria,

Afghanistan, Iraq, India, growing very slowly in many other countries,

and it has become the poster boy for jihadists. It has replaced Al-Qaeda

and with that comes money and people prepared to kill themselves.

Johnny Mercer, the head of MI5 says the threat of terrorism to the UK is

the highest he has seen, that was before the jet went down over the

Sinai desert. We now know, we have had it independently corroborated,

that I S has been using mustard gas on civilians in Aleppo, not because

it is a very use to them, but as a sign, we have got it, a sign to the

West. Is that a response series SATs is

there a response seriously adequate to this?

Until now, we have not been militarily involved as much as we

should have. We are in a difficult place here, we are learning all

still healing from the mistakes in the last 15 years in terms of

foreign policy engagement. That can't mean we draw up the

drawbridge and think the way to keep safe at home and keep our way of

life is to have no strategic involvement overseas.

If it is proved this is done by so-called Islamic State, it

demonstrates their strategic reach and reinforces that argument that we

have to do something about this threat. It is only going to come

closer and it is not good enough for it to come closer, the something to

happen, and afterward for us to say, we should have done this and that.

We need an intelligent foreign policy such intervention strategy,

this is what the banister is trying to do and we should support him.

He referred to help Afghanistan and Iraq hang over this country's

foreign policy and military responses. Does Afghanistan, from

the Soviet era, does that hang over, is it a restraint on what the

Kremlin might do today? Totally, they are aware of the risks

that occurred when they intervened and the deaths and casualties in

Afghanistan. One of the reasons why the Civic union became so weak and

eventually led to its disintegration. There is only one

other point I would like to make which people in Russia are now

talking about, experts, is the fact that to a certain extent this attack

was also very much targeted against Egypt. I think a lot of the focus

has been on Russia. For me, it was always not very clear white Isis in

Egypt in the Sinai desert was going to attack if Russian plane, and why

not the people who were under the bombs?

It seems very much that we should not forget the dimension that to a

certain extent the Russians might not have been the initial main

objective of the attack, but to have an impact on Egypt and the Egyptian

tourism industry, because a country suffering the most from this attack

is actually going to be Egypt. Because its economy is so weak. We

had to be more careful when we analysed these groups and the

connections, and not immediately assume that Isis is giving this

order. I disagree with that interpretation.

Tim Marshall, here is the rub at the moment. We now face this potential

far wider or dangerous better resourced terrorist threat than ever

before. It happens at a time when we want to get together to deal with

this but the British are not bombing in Syria. Our allies America have

stopped bombing, Saudi Arabia, UAE, has devoted its jets, Bahrain has

not been part of anything since debris, the Saudis since September,

Jordan since August. America which is half-hearted in this, is almost

on its own in dealing with this now. And with a president not keen on

doing this, who was pushed into it. The British situation is different.

The politics of the matter, it is clear, is not in the House of

Commons. The SNP, Labour, Tory rebels, will

vote it down. We were talking earlier, because of a rock, we are

not going to do without Parliamentary vote. -- Iraq.

The French are putting their aircraft carrier back into the Gulf.

It was that the two months and they are selling it back from another

operation. At the request of the Americans. In

2007, since then, the Americans do not have a carrier in the Gulf.

The Tornado jets would make a difference. To say, we as a culture

with commonalities in our belief systems, we are standing together.

At the moment, they are not. We will leave it there.

The uneasy truce between supporters of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

and the majority of Labour MPs is under renewed strain this week.

First, MPs from the right of the party swept the board

at elections for posts that will give them a role in making policy.

Then Mr Corbyn's senior policy adviser, a young man called

Andrew Fisher, was suspended from the party, apparently after Blairite

MPs complained he had backed an anarchist at the general election

We already know that at least one MP wants to trigger

a leadership election if next May's election results are underwhelming.

But, if there is a contest, how would it work, and what hurdles

would face Mr Corbyn and his potential challengers?

Giles has been delving into the Labour Party rule book.

Be warned, there is flash photography in his film.

That some Labour MPs did not and do not want Jeremy Corbyn

That there are internal tensions between some MPs and Jeremy Corbyn's

That Labour has not removed a sitting leader since 1935 is a fact.

And that Jeremy Corbyn won the ballot to become leader with

a whisker off 60% of the vote is also a fact.

What is surprising about these facts is that it's Jeremy Corbyn's team

themselves who are very keen to see the rules surrounding any challenge

Because, when it comes to the rule book, the mechanism for such

It starts well enough with chapter four, clause two, B, two:

The wording of this clause is, in fact, already out-of-date as

of last conference, as any MP who can get 20% of support from

Labour Parliamentarians, that's MPs and now MEPs which, as of now means

Whether there is anyone who could do that at the moment is

a very moot point, however much some might wish there was.

If they get them, they then write to the Party General Secretary, and

Then Labour's National Executive Committee decides the timetable and

The problem is, nowhere in the rules is it specified what happens next.

It seems, within party circles, depending on their views,

The challenger or challengers are put on the ballot with

But the incumbent leader then needs 15% of Labour Parliamentarians to

nominate them so they too appear on it.

He is not popular inside the PLP, that is very clear.

So, if he's not going to go through automatically,

he has to knock on doors and get people to sign the form.

The challenger is on the ballot, others may also seek 20% nomination

threshold, and they too appear, but the leader is automatically included

The idea, the incumbent, somebody with 60% of the electorate in the

Labour Party, might not be on the ballot paper, yet someone at best

on the fringes of the Labour Party could be, is obviously unthinkable.

Only the named challenger goes forward

with their 20% nomination, and it is a straight binary head-to-head with

the leader who again is automatically in the contest.

Mr Corbyn might need more protective gear from scenario one and two, but

this programme understands option three is what the current leader's

team and the party solicitor think is the correct interpretation.

Of course, any talk of leadership challenges

might well upset the 60% of those who clearly wanted Jeremy Corbyn to

not only lead the party but lead it into the 2020 general election.

This wouldn't happen in any other organisation where you

have a new CEO judged on metrics that happened in the

Let us give him a bit more time before we start mounting challenges

or talking about challenges, because he does have an overwhelming mandate

Nonetheless, in bars and offices across Westminster, some Labour MPs

are thinking into the night how they can stop Jeremy Corbyn.

And some have no desire to remove him,

but think the idea of challenging any leader is important as an idea.

As a historian, I realise the Labour Party has a major problem

And I want a situation where it can say

they are not doing a decent job, and therefore they have got to go.

Because if he had won, he's there for two or three years.

So, if the rules were clarified, would it make

I can't see it happening for a very long time.

At the moment, the only way to be able to get rid

of Jeremy Corbyn, if that is what you want, is to convince people he

I see absolutely no evidence of that happening at all.

Of course that doesn't mean someone won't try.

Pole, even if the Parliamentary party had the stomach for a coup

against Mr Corbyn, it would result in civil war within the party

because the next election would go back to the same electorate that

elected Mr Corbin? could happen but if he was an

absolute disaster, losing by-elections, and by disaster,

significantly worse than Ed Miliband's results. After all,

Labour doesn't get rid of its leaders. Until something of that

kind happens, where you have a really persuasive argument that

there is not a hope in hell of him winning the next election, that

might bring the party round, but any rebels had to bring enough up the

party round to say, look, winning is what really matters and this guy

isn't going to win for us. Are there people talking, plotting coup is

already? Of course, the counterrevolutionaries, and they are

delighted with themselves in the PLP, they have a serious of

modernisers who have been elected to the chairmanship of these committees

-- a series of modernisers. 10% of them visited bag of loot voted for

this candle. The problem is, they have the power to trigger a

leadership contest but do not have the power to decide the contest,

that will be for the people who overwhelmingly voted for Mr Corbyn

and I agree, it will take up catastrophic meltdown over the next

year to get the contest taking place, but even if you had that

contest, I still think you will find, because he has only been there

a year, his supporters will say it is not our fault, give him more time

and you will find even in those circumstances, Jeremy Corbyn or

Jeremy Corbyn person would win. Mr Corbyn does sometimes create

unnecessary problems for himself. Let me show you this clip from

Andrew Fisher, he was a political adviser to Mr Corbyn. He has been

suspended from the party but he is still working for the Labour

leader. One of its problems is this is what he had to say.

I had the most excruciating half-hour of my life where I was

I sometimes have nightmares, very violent, bloody nightmares

But it was excruciating and he said, look, we got to explain to people

there is more to life than moving from the bedroom to the sofa.

That was his attitude towards people who are unemployed.

For this plummy accented, Oxbridge-educated Tory

in a red rosette, frankly, to be saying that, was the most

It took every sinew of my self-discipline not to thump him.

Though Mr Fischer is no stranger to defend himself, having called other

Labour members vile gits and scumbags. You wonder why Mr Corbyn

feels he needs someone like this. And if you think Mr Corbyn is trying

to prevent an internal push against himself, why he would making the

late make several of the personnel decisions he has -- why he would be

making several other personnel decisions. If you are hoping to get

him out, your hub would have to be that the new members that have

changed the composition of the Labour Party are not hardened,

militia style activists that will defend him to the last ditch, but

are dreamers and kids who got excited over the summer and will

break away in the coming years and will realise that internal party

warfare means turning up to tedious meetings on a wet Thursday night and

they will not be there to protect him in the worst instances. I think

Polly is right, he won't go unless he is an obvious disaster, but I

don't think he will come across as an obvious disaster until the spring

of 2020, by which time it is too late and Labour have already lost

the last of the late next election. -- lost the next election.

It's coming up to one o'clock, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

The Falklands veteran, Simon Weston, says the delay the publication

of the report the Iraq war is "an insult."

The former Children's Commissioner, Keith Towler, says commissioners

should be appointed by the Assembly, not the Welsh government.

And in the devolution debate, the draft Wales Bill has been

But what's been happening with the Scotland Bill?

But first, Wales has been observing Remembrance Sunday.

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and the Welsh Secretary,

Stephen Crabb, were at the Remembrance Service

at the Wales National War Memorial in Alexandra Gardens in Cardiff.

The First Minister said marking the occasion was hugely important.

It's encouraging to see that more and more people coming every year.

We know how important it is, not just to remember those who've

fallen in conflicts past, but to remember those who are still

We no longer have any serving soldiers from the First World War,

there is unfortunately a dwindling number of those who have

As those who fought fade away, how important is it that

Last year I was here for the final gathering of the Normandy Veterans.

They are now getting on and decided last year would be

But it is absolutely crucial that as the people fade away,

Mr Jones also said more needed to be done to care

for former soldiers injured in battle, and believes this is one

of the areas where the Welsh and UK governments work well together.

We have the Armed Forces Covenant, the Military Covenant which is made

by governments and devolved administrations to do everything we

can to support Armed Forces and their families, through housing and

making sure that where treatment is necessary,

I think it's a very good example of the different layers of government

It's one that is completely free of politics and conflict,

but we need to do more to make sure that more service men and women

Well, one of the UK's most prominent

Armed Forces veterans is Simon Weston.

The former Welsh Guards soldier was aboard the Sir Galahad when it was

destroyed at Bluff Cove during the Falklands conflict in 1982.

He suffered burns to 46% of his body and went

But, as a survivor, he considers himself one of the lucky ones.

Out of his platoon of 30 men, 22 were killed during the attacks.

Since then, Weston has spent his time collecting

money and raising awareness to burns victims and war veterans.

Now, he's turning his attention to mental health issues.

He suffered from depression and drank heavily

But before we spoke about that, I wanted his views on the

Chilcott Enquiry into the Iraq war, which he opposed strongly, in 2003.

I think the Chilcott Enquiry has been one

of the worst episodes of political interference for any enquiry.

I think it's an insult to the memories

Every single family that suffered because of the injury and because

of the death of their loved ones over there.

I think it's been one of the most horrendous episodes

of moral ineptitude that I've seen for a long, long time.

Possibly in my lifetime, possibly the worst I would experience.

But I just think it's been horrendous.

I think whether Mr Chilcott can look at

himself in the mirror in the morning and not feel ashamed, I don't know.

You're somebody who is very well known about standing up

for the rights of serving personnel and former serving personnel.

But now you're also turning your attention to mental health issues.

Well, mental health is a lot to do with service.

It has huge resonance for a lot of people who served.

There's a lot of people in prison from the ex-service community

Now, whether that alcoholism or whether it's PTSD, or

whether its other issues surrounding their service, we can't fully know.

Because your access is limited and the charity that I set up with

the comedian, Jim Davidson, to look into all of this and help these guys

get back on the straight and narrow, we only have a limited resorts.

So, we can't do a full blown investigation for ourselves.

But we do think it's something that should be looked at.

I do think that there are many different interventions

We do need psychiatrists and psychologists and medical

We do need people to be segregated from mainstream society

for everybody's safety, including the person who is the problem.

But I do think that it's not always the domain of the

If you're feeling down, some people go for a run.

And that gets the ills and the woes of their life sorted

Maybe it's group therapy, maybe it's talking therapy.

It's being involved with the right people

On a Welsh Government and UK Government basis,

is enough being done, do you think, to address all these problems that

I think one of the biggest problems we had was we got rid

We had them, and we then put everybody into the community.

And for some it was absolutely the right thing to do,

they should never have been put into hospitals in the first place.

But I do think for some people, a hospital is a better environment.

I know it costs, but isn't the fact that those people are in a place

where they can be cared for properly more important than leaving them to

Where they can become victims and we hear too often

What they're talking about is people that can't actually

think straight and have issues, and they need support.

But if they're in a community where they get lost and there's not enough

money or resources to find them and keep them safe, then they'll be

How that use and abuse will take place

This is a much bigger issue when you are talking about all the different

But, for me, the biggest problem for me personally and viewpoint

that I talk about mostly is depression and PTSD because there

And I'm very fortunate that I've come through them and I am

as confident as I am and I'm able to talk about it and I

don't feel embarrassed about talking about those things.

Because mental health should not be seen as a weakness.

It should not be seen as few weeks, you are frail,

you are lesser than the other person.

Because it's the domain of a lot of people.

And given the overall economic situation where we are talking about

cuts to public services, do you fear that this isn't the right time to be

expecting more money to be spent on mental health issues because the

"Where's the money going to come from?"

I'm not a politician and I don't have the purse strings.

But I don't think any further cuts to the mental health

That's a fact because they've been cut to the bone anyway.

So, to take any more out of it would leave even more vulnerable

people more vulnerable again to whatever they may fall prey to.

Whether that be society, individuals, whatever that may be.

But we shouldn't cut any more out of that particular arena.

What we should be looking at is possibly finding better ways

to invest in the mental health services and

It would be a conversation worth having

Because I think that we can do things away

from the prescribed arenas where doctors and psychologists have to

But the human cost is even bigger, and even more tragic.

One life left in despair is one life to many.

And we shouldn't abandon people and we shouldn't see them

as being less people because they mental health issues.

We should be looking for different aspects.

I got to experience a lot of these things

And I came through it, and I came through it largely

She takes great credit, or she should take great credit,

But I learned so much from my mother's experiences

as a clinician, and she made a huge different in one person's life.

And if one person can do that in what you are exposed to

in the way of decency, kindness and the excellence of her skills,

My mother didn't do anything in the way of psychiatry.

She didn't sit me down and say, "Right, what are your problems?"

She sat me down and talked to me in a way that made me the man I am.

And I think my experiences are born out of genuine love.

And the experience I have from my mother.

So, if we're going to learn anything,

it is from experience the best learn it.

And I certainly think that I have something to offer in that regard.

Earlier this week, the announcement that

a former Labour government adviser and councillor had been appointed as

the Future Generations Commissioner caused a stir in Cardiff Bay.

It also put a spotlight on the growing number

of Commissioner positions created by the Welsh government.

Our reporter, Bethan Lewis, has been hearing the views

of the former former Children's Commissioner, Keith Towler.

Sophie Howe was this week introduced as the

And she's got a big job to do over her seven-year term.

The Commissioner's responsibilities include to be a guardian

for the ability of future generations to meet their needs, and

to encourage public bodies to take greater account of the long-term

The commissioner will be supported by up to 18 staff, and will have

In Cardiff Bay, some are unhappy about her links to the Labour Party.

The government say she was selected by a panel,

including Assembly Members from all parties, before she was formally

The Future Generations Champion joins other Commissioners,

responsible for children, the Welsh language and older people.

Appointed in 2008, Keith Towler was Children's Commissioner

What does he make of this week's row?

Firstly, I feel disappointed that that kind

I also feel a great deal of sympathy for Sophie.

None of this is of her making, but it is about, I think, legitimate

questions that are asked about the independence of Commissioners.

I've always taken the view, as the Children's Commissioner,

but in relation to all of the Commissioners, that the

accountability and the appointment of Commissioners should be done by

the National Assembly for Wales, and not by the Welsh government.

The Welsh government never interfered in any of the work that I

They never tried to coerce me or influence me to do things that I

didn't think were in the right interests of children or people.

But, nevertheless, I think the accountability

and appointment procedures raise questions when the accountability is

not to the people through our National Assembly for Wales.

But the Welsh government have said that the candidate was selected

by a panel of cross-party Assembly Members and that person was

But, nevertheless, the First Minister still has that veto

When he was Children's Commissioner, and now,

Keith Towler thinks a set of United Nations principles for roles such as

It emphasises the need to be independent of government.

Always at the back of my mind, I kept thinking about those UN

principles about independent institutions and I

knew that, actually, I wasn't properly independent because

It's not about government First Minister or ministers acting

inappropriately with Commissioners, not in my experience.

But the process and the system is in the wrong place.

The other issue that the appointment of the Future Generations

Commissioner has raised is the issue of links with political parties.

I don't think anybody who has served as an Assembly Member or a member of

a parliament should be a Commissioner.

I think when you apply to be the Commissioner, if you are

a member of a political party, you should resign that membership

It should be absolutely clear that your political affiliation

If they do, your position is compromised.

When it comes to political links, the Welsh government says

Commissioners can declare political affiliations.

But they don't have too resigned membership of parties.

But the former Commissioner thinks change is needed to help people

in these key roles to get on with the job.

The focus has to be about ensuring that whoever gets appointed to those

roles is able to do the best job they can without political discourse

These jobs are hard enough as they are without having all

The Future Generations Commissioner hasn't started her role yet,

and it's unfair on her right now for this to be happening

In recent weeks, First Minister Carwyn Jones and Welsh Secretary

Stephen Crabb have been at loggerheads over the UK Government's

Tomorrow the draft Wales Bill is being scrutinised by AMs and MPs

In the meantime, at Westminster, the Scotland Bill and the

UK Government's response to the Scottish independence referendum

is expected to complete its journey through the Commons.

Here's our correspondent, David Cornock.

There is some flash photography in his report.

The Scots rejected independence after a pledge

A vow the only one still in his job promised to implement the

So, now it is time for our United Kingdom to come together

A vital part of that will be a balanced settlement

fair to people in Scotland and, importantly, to everyone in England,

Just as the people of Scotland will have more power over their affairs,

so it follows that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

The Smith Commission suggests that Holyrood be given

the power to set income tax rates and bands, and keep the proceeds,

and the power to create new benefits in devolved areas

and make discretionary payments in all welfare areas.

So, the Scottish Government could compensate those hit by

One year after the Smith Commission reported,

Here's a flavour of the exchanges during the most recent

Scottish Question Time at Westminster.

The powers that are being delivered to the Scottish Parliament will make

it the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

But rather than tell us what they'll do with those powers,

The SNP, who won all but three of Scotland's's 59 seats last May,

Only 9% of people in Scotland believe that

So, unsurprisingly, the government is now having to accept amendments.

Labour's Scotland spokesman, better known as the MP for Caerphilly,

is happy that Holyrood will now have the power to compensate those

One of the main things the government

has brought forward a mechanism where by the Scottish Parliament can

That's very important because the Scottish Parliament, under

Labour's certainty, will want to compensate people for the money they

Wouldn't you like to see the Welsh Assembly have those powers?

No, because Wales is very different to Scotland.

I think what is absolutely fundamental is the fact that,

relatively speaking, Scotland is better off than Wales.

We are very reluctant to accept any measures which the government would

We want to see a prosperous nation in Wales, not the poorer one.

But Plaid Cymru say what's good enough for the Scots is

Of course, the comparison with what Scotland

Although, perhaps, people feel that we are looking

at Wales rather than Scotland, none the less that is what devolution is

Well, why shouldn't it be the same in Wales as well?

Why shouldn't we be as capable as the Parliament of Scotland

Despite the arguments about the details, the Scotland Bill

It should clear the House of Commons within days.

The draft Wales Bill, on the other hand, it's still very much a draft.

The UK Government hope it can secure a cross-party consensus behind it

Tomorrow, MPs and AMs will join forces in the Senedd for a whole

day's pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft bill, taking evidence

There's still a few tickets left for what could be

That report was from our Parliamentary Correspondent,

Don't forget to check out his blog on BBC Wales politics online.

And we'll be providing comprehensive coverage of tomorrow's committee

hearings on the draft Wales Bill across our TV, radio,

My thanks to Bob Stewart and to Stephen Pound and, with that,

The row between junior doctors and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has

The disagreement centres around a proposed new contract

The Government says the existing arrangements are outdated

and claims the move will help deliver the Conservative manifesto

The British Medical Association, representing junior doctors, says

the changes will result in working practices that are unsafe and unfair

Any industrial action could involve a walk-out from all

but emergency work, in what is likely to be the biggest

Well, the Labour Party has called on Mr Hunt to scrap his plans,

and the Shadow Health Secretary Heidi Alexander joins us now.

Welcome to the programme. Is the Labour Party in favour of the

concept of a 7 day a week Health Service? We are but I think you need

to understand the barriers that exist in order to provide that

service. Jeremy Hunt the Health Secretary has

implied that if you change the junior doctors's contract, then in

some way that automatically means you have a 7 day NHS. It doesn't.

You don't just need junior doctors. They are already working weekends

and nights. You need consultant cover, diagnostics support,

pharmacists, 24/7 social care. If Jeremy Hunt isn't being honest

about the resources he would put in to deliver that 24/7 NHS, then

picking a fight with junior doctors which is what he seems determined to

do at the moment, will not provide the solution he said it will.

If you wanted a proper 7-day-a-week NHS, would you also had to change

the junior doctors's contract? I'm not totally convinced that

changing their contracts will actually result in more junior

doctors being available on the ward. There are some things that should

probably... You have said the existing contract

is not perfect, do you need to change it in some ways for seven day

cover? Along with the things you mentioned. If you listened to what

hospital bosses and chief executive say, they are saying very clearly

that the junior doctor contract is not the main issue here.

There are other things that would need to change. One of the things

that really concerns junior doctors is that the proposals that seemed to

be on the table at the moment are bad for patient safety, and they are

not convinced that the proposals will result in them not working even

more excessive and exhausting hours than they at the moment.

The contract at the moment has financial penalties built into it

which means, if a hospital forces junior doctors to work very long

hours, then that hospital is financially penalised. And that

system, whilst it may not be perfect, has the broad confidence of

junior doctors, and they are very worried this proposal that has come

forward in the last couple of days, even though negotiations have been

going on for years, will compromise patient safety.

Was the BMA right to begin a strike ballot without sitting down with

Jeremy Hunt over the new offer? I think the BMA and junior doctors

feel that they have been backed into a corner because of the way that

Jeremy Hunt has handled these negotiations.

He started off by saying that the BMA and junior doctors would have

two agreed to 22 out of 23 preconditions laid down by the

doctors and dentists's remuneration board.

He went on to imply, which has angered Junor doctors even more, if

you change this contract it will somehow result in lives being saved.

And then we have a situation on Wednesday, 24 hours before the

ballot of junior doctors is due to start, that he decides the best way

to conduct negotiations is to issue a press release from the Department

of Health. And that is the best way to conduct negotiations.

He has been talking to the BMA since 2012, this is not a new problem.

He has made an 11% pay offer. He said other than the few already

working illegal hours, less than 1% would see come would lose some pain

but that is because they would not be working as much. 75% would get a

rise, is that not something worth talking about?

A lot of this is spent, Andrew. How do you know?

The 11% pay offer applies to a proportion of the junior doctors's

contract, the other proportion of their wage will actually be going

down. So, you cannot say that this is an 11% pay rise. Let me finish

this point. How do you know if you don't sit around negotiations?

Listen to Jeremy Hunt, he is saying the overall pay envelope for junior

doctors will remain broadly the same. How can it possibly be an 11%

pay rise? A rise in the basic and they will do

less overtime, less hours would count as overtime.

It is cogitated as it may be the junior doctors will think this does

not take us forward. Don't they owe it to those of us who

pay their salaries, the people who use the NHS, to sit down with Mr

Hunt and go through it? I think they have tried but the way in which the

Health Secretary has handled these negotiations has been absolutely

appalling. Take the example of this. On

Wednesday, again, 24 hours before the ballot opens, it is the first

time that the Health Secretary says that the Care Quality Commission are

going to be involved in monitoring the hours of junior doctors. Why

didn't we hear that two months ago? Why did we hear that six months ago?

This is the Care Quality Commission... If you were a junior

doctor, would you vote for strike action?

I am not a junior doctor, it is not for me as a politician to sit in a

TV studio on a Sunday afternoon and tell junior doctors how they should

vote in a ballot. I am not going If they do vote for strike action,

will the Labour Party support them? I am not going to prejudge the

outcome of the ballot. You have come on and argued the junior doctors'

case, with knowledge and some eloquence, so if they vote for

strike action, why, given everything you have said, would you not support

them? Jeremy Hunt can avoid a strike tomorrow if he avoids the threat of

contract imposition. I will ask Jeremy Hunt when I speak to him.

Would you, if they vote for strike action, will the Labour Party

support them? It is a simple question. I will be happy to come

back and speak to you in a couple of weeks, but I am not going to

prejudge the outcome of a democratic process that is currently under way.

The Government in a mess or other junior doctors chancing their arm?

It is interesting, it is where is where those two Conservative

manifesto commitments made, the seven-day NHS and the other thing,

the ?22 billion of efficiency savings in the NHS to meet the ?30

billion funding gap. What is interesting is if there is pain

here, imagine what it will be like in other areas of the public

services. The NHS is protected, it has a ring fenced budget that rises

in line with inflation. Other areas that are not protected will face

cuts of 25%, so this is just an early taste of how difficult things

will get next year on the other side of the Spending Review. I want to

put something to you that the cheaper the defence staff said to

me, not about the NHS, he would be worried if Mr Trident Macca delete

Corbin's views on Trident became Labour policy -- Jeremy Corbyn's

views on Trident became Labour policy, that he would never press

the button. Let's hear what Richard Houghton had to say. The whole thing

about deterrence rest on the court Macca delete -- rest on the use. If

you say you are never going to use it, I say you use it every minute of

every day and the purpose of the deterrent is you don't have to use

it because you successfully deter. So no point in spending billions and

billions if our enemies think we will never use it? Yes, because

deterrence is then completely undermined.

Isn't that the point, if you have the deterrent, you say you will use

it, even if you might not. If you don't have it, you save the money.

What is the logic of having it and saying you will not use it? I think

Jeremy was probably answering a hypothetical question. He has been

clear that the Labour Party is going to have a review of its policy. I am

somebody who welcomes that review, to be honest. I understand that, but

my point is you can have a review and say we won't have the deterrent

or we will have the deterrent. What is the logic of saying we will have

it but won't use it? As I say, I think Jeremy was answering a

hypothetical question. I think it is a difficult question. His views on

nuclear weapons are long held. The Labour Party needs to go through

this review. We need to decide democratically as a party whether we

want to commit to the renewal of Trident. At the point at which that

decision is taken, Labour Party members will obviously be

deciding... Thank you, you can come back and tell me that.

There's no Sunday Politics next week because MPs are taking a break

from Westminster - but we'll be back on the 22nd November.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics -