Browse content similar to 29/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
The Government continues its push for the UK to join air-strikes | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
Is it winning the argument and does it have the votes in Parliament? | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
We'll hear from former Tory defence secretary Liam Fox, and Respect | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is struggling to get his way over Syria, as he tries to | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
persuade his Shadow Cabinet to back his opposition to bombing. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
We'll hear from Shadow Justice Secretary, Charlie Falconer. | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
And the former Conservative chairman Grant Shapps resigns | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
from the Government over allegations he failed to act on bullying claims | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
inside the Tory Party, but is that really the end of the story? | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
Focus on the vote on military action in Syria not Jeremy Corbyn's | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
leadership or next year's Assembly elections says a Welsh Labour MP. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
Metropolitan Police but his spending decisions will have consequences for | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
transport, housing and councils. So, yesterday, | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps resigned from | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
the Government over allegations he failed to act on claims of bullying | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in the youth wing of the party. It's a complicated story, | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
as Giles Dilnot explains. Grant Shapps, former co-chair | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
of the Conservative Party and now a former minister, must wish | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
as his senior aide Paul Abbot Clarke once tipped for the top | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
by Tatler magazine unsuccessfully As a result of his behaviour | :02:06. | :02:24. | |
during that campaign, about which complaints were made, he | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
was taken off the candidates list. A girlfriend at the time declaring | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
he was "unfit to be an MP". In early 2014, | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
Mr Clarke approached the Conservatives and Grant Shapps | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
in particular with an idea. It was simple, bus loads of young | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
Tory activists to marginal seats during the 2015 general election | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
campaign to doorstep constituents. In the face of of unshifting polls, | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
the idea appealed to Conservative Central Headquarters but they | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
wanted to have some control over it. Grant Shapps decided not only to | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
back the idea, but help pay for it, and put Clarke in charge | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
of the operation. never met are you going to be a part | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
of this? -- are you going to be? Roadtrip 2015, | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
as the plan was called, had another motive for Clarke, to see him back | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
on the Conservative candidate list and perhaps he would have and this | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
story ended if not for the apparent suicide in mid-September | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
of a young activist called Elliot Johnson, who left a note, naming | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
Mark Clarke as someone who'd been bullying him and a secret recording | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
of Clarke challenging him in a pub. In the wake of Elliot Johnson's | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
death, lurid allegations emerged about Clarke, alleging sexual | :03:38. | :03:39. | |
misconduct, drugs, intimidation, blackmail and bullying connected to | :03:40. | :03:41. | |
Roadtrip, all denied by Mark Clarke. But August e-mail exchanges | :03:42. | :03:52. | |
between Mr Clarke and Mr Shapps' aide Paul Abbot show Mr Abbott was | :03:53. | :03:54. | |
aware of complaints Nothing was done and since Mr Shapps | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
gave Clarke an official Party role he has now resigned saying | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
"the buck stops with me". The Prime Minister says a full | :04:05. | :04:06. | |
internal investigation is under way. Elliot Johnson's father wants an | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
independent external investigation. The most serious allegations | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
about Clarke were made after Grant Shapps had been moved to | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
a junior ministerial position and Lord Feldman, David Cameron's | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
chief fundraiser and close friend, He says the party cannot find | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
nor was aware of any written If, by falling on his sword, | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
Mr Shapps hoped to stop the scandal spreading, | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
he may actually only have become The Sunday Politics panel is here. | :04:40. | :04:58. | |
Nick, here is the case for Shapps. He has been made a scapegoat. This | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
is not the end of the story. I think it is not the end of the story. | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
Grant Shapps did sign up Mark Clark to do this. I think it is getting | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
awfully close to the door of Andrew Feldman. They went -- he went to | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
college with the Prime Minister and organised some balls. They go back a | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
long way. The road trip was run out of Conservative campaign | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
headquarters in the run-up to the general election. Most significantly | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
for Andrew Feldman, he signed the checks to allow the road trip to | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
take place. We're not talking small cheques, we are talking many | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
hundreds of thousands of pounds. Grant Shapps was in charge of it on | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
a day-to-day basis but Andrew Feldman and his sister helped the | :05:51. | :06:02. | |
running of the road trip. What it does is put the attention onto some | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
of the attention onto summary the attention would be, what did Andrew | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
Feldman do? What did he know and when and what did he do? What we | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
have to remember is Baroness Warsi, who was co-chairman, kicked this guy | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
out of the party. Feldman was Chairman Ben and Shapps brought him | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
back. Feldman was co-chairman and Feldman is still the chairman now. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
In terms of the party, what some people were saying to me yesterday, | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
actually, it cannot be seen that Cameron is protecting Lord Fellman | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
-- Feldman because he is his friend. He has got questions to answer. I | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
also think that if people who are in the party feel these questions are | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
not being answered, and it is not an open process, loads more leaks will | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
come out and it will get messier and messier and messier. It is a rum do, | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
what was going on inside the Tory Party in its youth wing. Multiple | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. Culminating in this | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
young man taking his life on a railway line. It is an appalling | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
thing. There is a history of unusual behaviour amongst Conservative | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
students going back to the 1980s when Norman Tebbit closed down the | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
Confederation of Conservative students. It is the most extreme | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
incident I have ever encountered. This is about personal behaviour. | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
The parents of Elliott Johnson raised an important question of | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
chronology. Grant Shapps stop being co-chairman in May. Some of the | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
allegations against Mark Clark, some of the complaints surfaced as | :07:53. | :08:01. | |
recently as August. There is a deeper structural problem, which is | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
the Conservative Party does not have activists. They have to find them | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
where they can get them. Or, when summary has a reputation as bad as | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
Mark Clark, they end up going along with them because options are so | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
limited. It will not be the end of the story. | :08:22. | :08:22. | |
David Cameron is expected to ask MPs to approve UK air strikes | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
The Government thinks it now has enough support to risk a vote | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
in the Commons, even though the Labour Party is still unclear. | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
And the PM will almost certainly need Labour votes to get his way. | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
Mr Corbyn is still trying to rally his Shadow Cabinet and Labour MPs | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
He told Andrew Marr they should recognise his direct mandate | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
And so what I've done is what I said I would always do, | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
I would try to democratise the way the party does things. | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party members, and actually, | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
70,000 have already replied with their views. | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
I don't know what all the views are, obviously, I haven't read them all, | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
Surely we must recognise that in a democracy, the Labour Party has | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
a very large membership, nearly 400,000 members, they have a right | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
to express their point of view and MPs have to listen to it and have to | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
try and understand what's going on in the minds | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
I've been joined by Charlie Falconer, Jeremy Corbyn's | :09:15. | :09:25. | |
Are you minded to support government on the subject of Syrian air | :09:26. | :09:38. | |
strikes? I am. Then need to be assurances, given to the House of | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
Commons but I am minded to support air strikes. The reason I am, I | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
think Isil poses a threat to the region and also Europe, including | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
the United Kingdom. I believe air strikes over Iraq and Syria are | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
having an effect on reducing that risk. I think it is wrong that we | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
are participating in Syria when what is going on is we are trying to | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
defend the United Kingdom. I believe the only long-term solution is there | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
needs to be a solution to the Syrian civil war and the bombing of cracker | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
will not significantly contribute to that. -- Raqqa. I believe we do not | :10:16. | :10:25. | |
have a choice. The likelihood is that the Shadow Cabinet will agree a | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
collective position in this matter. There are honourably held collective | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
views. The Shadow Cabinet on Thursday, they were appropriately | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
discussing. Everybody was conscious of the fact we have to reach a | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
conclusion in national interests. With an issue like this where there | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
is agreement on the factual material, international law, the | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
final judgment, there is such a difficult decision to be made, it is | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
not surprising that our disagreements in the Shadow Cabinet. | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
It is unlikely that tomorrow you will be able to agree a collective | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
line. I think that is right. It is unlikely we'll be able to agree a | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
yes or no answer to the question the Government is about to post. If it | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
does not and there is a free vote for this among Labour MPs, it does | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
make it certain that Mr Cameron will win by a convincing majority. I do | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
not know the position. I think everyone is weighing up the merits | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
of the argument. The right thing to do is for mothers of the | :11:46. | :11:47. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party members of the Shadow Cabinet to consider | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
all the arguments and reach a conclusion as to what they think is | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
in the national interest. It is clear that enough Labour MPs will | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
abstain or side with the Government to give Mr Cameron a majority, even | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
if that are some Tory defectors. If the position where it was whipped | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
against by the Labour Party, that with very significantly reduce the | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
chances if it were a free vote. I do not know what the final figures | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
would be. Your figures sound right. Should there be a free vote? What is | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
the alternative given the position you are into a free vote? My own | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
view is I do not think this very important issue should be allowed to | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
be a situation that forces resignations on people. I think the | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
right course is, if the Shadow Cabinet cannot come to a collective | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
view, and I accept that maybe unlikely, probably the best course | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
is a free vote. That is ultimately for the leadership to decide. For an | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
opposition which aspires to government when you're not a | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
debating society. You are the opposition, the alternative | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
government. What would voters think if you cannot agree a collective | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
position on something as important as war? What the Government be | :13:05. | :13:16. | |
seeing is a legitimate debate. The public is like the Parliamentary | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
Labour Party and like the saddo Cabinet, of different views. You | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
need to come to a collective view. We need to know your view on this. | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
The differences with this is I do not think it will be possible. I do | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
not think that is surprising. That reflects the debate that is going on | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
in the country. The debate going on in the country is going on within | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
the Labour Party. If Mr Corbyn was to attempt, and he said this morning | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
it is his decision to whip or not. If there were a decision to whip | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
Labour members to vote against bombing, would that be a resignation | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
matter for you? I do not want to comment on that. I very much hope | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
any sort of resignations will be avoided. I think the position will | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
be we will have a further discussion on Monday and a collective you will | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
be reached as to how we go forward in relation to the progress. One | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Labour MP told us that Mr Corbyn's and of this vote seems to him like a | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
deliberate search for a fight and he is very disappointed. I do not | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
agree. The key thing about what is happening now is not who sent a | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
letter when. The key thing which the public want us to debate is the | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
question itself. Should we support air strikes or not? I think the | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
important thing about this week will not be who said what to whom but | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
will be where you stood on the issue. It is one of those issues | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
where the judgment about what was right and what was wrong will not | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
come on the basis of the politics of these few days. It will come on what | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
happens going forward. What was the right decision? Let me ask you this. | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
We do not have much time. Because you are a lawyer and an expert on | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
the Labour Party, if Labour MPs sought to unseat Mr Corbyn, and | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
there is some wild talk around on that, witty automatically be on the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
ballot paper of a new leadership election? I have not addressed that. | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
It is not a moment to talk about any sort of leadership challenge. Jeremy | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
Corbyn is leader. He was elected two months ago with a huge mandate. That | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
is the position within the Labour Party and that is where we have to | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
address it. It can hardly be a stable position to have a Labour | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
leader, in such a key issue has bombing in Syria, at odds with a | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
huge chunk of his Shadow Cabinet rest room at that position is | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
unsustainable over the period. It was absolutely clear when Jeremy was | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
elected, there were significant disagreements between Jeremy and | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
others on policy. What is happening is the Labour Party is holding | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
together. So far. So, once again a British government | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
is gearing up extend military action It's a well-trod road | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
and the outcome has not always been predictable, or pleasant, | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
which is why so many are hesitant. Ellie Price has been looking | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
at the Prime Minister's case for action, and what role the UK | :16:24. | :16:25. | |
military might play. That bomb in Paris, | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
that could have been London. If they had their way, | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
it would be London. I can't stand here | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
and say we're safe I can't stand here either | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
and say we will remove the threat from the action we take, but do I | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
stand here with advice behind me that taking action will degrade | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
and reduce that threat over time? Absolutely, | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
and I've examined my conscience David Cameron says he no longer | :16:50. | :16:50. | |
wants to outsource this sort Britain is currently involved in air | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
strikes against so-called Islamic State, but only in Iraq, shown here | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
in the bottom half of this shot. The border, for British forces | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
at least, is crucial. IS, Isis, Daesh - whatever you want | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
to call it - control or is free to operate in swathes of territory | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
in Iraq and Syria. Its so-called caliphate stretches | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
from Aleppo in Syria to The lines on the map are relatively | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
fluid, it recently lost control That was down to Kurdish forces with | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
the help of US-led air strikes. Currently Australia, | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
Canada and France are also flying bombing missions over both | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
countries, targeting IS. According to the latest figures | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
released on Friday, the US and its allies operating | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
under the banner of Operation Inherent Resolve have conducted more | :17:51. | :17:52. | |
than 8,500 air strikes against Islamic State targets since the | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
start of the campaign last year. That's 5,580 air strikes in Iraq | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
and 2,925 in Syria. More than 16,000 targets have been | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
damaged or destroyed, including more than 4,500 buildings, | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
nearly 5,000 fighting positions, and The vast majority have come from US | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
aircraft, but the RAF has run 376 They've been launched | :18:18. | :18:25. | |
from this base in Cyprus, where The base has also been used to | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
carry out refuelling and The perception out there is | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
the question as to whether or not the UK should be involved | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
in the campaign in Syria or not. The reality is we are involved in | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
that campaign but in an inconsistent Other countries, our allies, | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
the Americans and French in particular, just don't quite | :18:51. | :19:06. | |
understand where we are up to. The PM insists | :19:07. | :19:08. | |
the RAF can provide specific skills that coalition partners are keen to | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
make the most of. The ability to launch highly | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
accurate Brimstone missiles. We are very good | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
at not killing people collaterally, the UK, so in that sense I think us | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
moving into Syria is good. The sad thing is that no matter how | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
good you are, there will be innocent people killed but they are dying | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
anyway because of Isil, and it's coming to the stage where you have | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
to move forward and do things, even though that sort of thing happens, | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
that cannot be Of course Russia is also involved | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
in air strikes in Syria, but its support of President Assad's | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
regime puts it at odds with The scale of these tensions | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
demonstrated when Turkey, which vehemently opposes Assad, shot | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
down a Russian plane last week. Most experts agree that air strikes | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
alone will not destroy the common enemy of IS, that ground forces will | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
be needed, but agreeing on exactly who those forces would be, could | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
prove the biggest obstacle to peace. We are joined now by George | :20:05. | :20:29. | |
Galloway. What should be done to thwart Islamic State, if not British | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
bombing, what should be done to hit it in its heartland? Most of these | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
terrorist attacks were carried out by people living in the countries in | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
which they operated, Tunisia, France, Belgium and so on so you | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
will not physically stop people bombing Raqqa turning up on the | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
streets of Paris. But the planning involved Islamic State. There's not | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
much logistics involved in taking arms into a nightclub and killing | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
innocent people. There are many weapons in Europe, nobody is | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
suggesting these weapons came from Syria. I don't want to dodge your | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
question, I must strongly in favour of destroying Isis and Al-Qaeda as | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
anybody else, more than the David Cameron government or they wouldn't | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
be tolerating a situation where Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
supporting these people for years and until now are supporting them. | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
We are steeped in blog so far but it is bloodier to go on, I promise you. | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
What would you do? I would support the people fighting Isis and | :21:45. | :21:54. | |
Al-Qaeda on the ground. The wide PG militia -- YPG militia. Give them | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
weapons, every kind of support we can. It is a far better way than us | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
joining in. Do you support Russian attacks on the anti-Assad forces in | :22:14. | :22:23. | |
Syria? Yes, if they are coordinated with the Syrian government's army. | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
So do you support British attacks on Islamic State forces in Iraq at | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
their request of the Iraq government? I do, and if they were | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
coordinated with the Government that make sense militarily, and if we | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
coordinated our involvement with Russia and the Syrian government in | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
Syria, I would support that too but it's because I'm pretty sure the | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
British government's real game is regime change and because we have | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
seen regime change before in Iraq and Libya and they ended so | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
disastrously, I am against it. It's not because I'm a pacifist. There | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
was a time when David Cameron's priority was to get rid of a sad's | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
regime but isn't it clear that David Cameron has realised that defeating | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
Islamic State is more important to Britain's national interest than | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
getting rid of Mr Assad? If it were you probably wouldn't have me on | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
because I would be supporting it, but I don't believe that. I pray his | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
utterly farcical claim in the House this week that there were 70,000 | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
moderate rebels armed and ready to take over the land liberated by our | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
bombardment. You say that is fantasy? If there were 700 I would | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
be surprised. We will bomb territory which will then be taken by other | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
so-called moderate fanatics, the ones as I said to you before that | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
only cut off half your head. Should we regard the Russians and the Assad | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
regime as our allies in the fight against Islamic State? We had that | :24:12. | :24:20. | |
chance and that was incinerated by our ally on his attack on the | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
Russian air force bombing these people, shot out of the sky | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
provoking a crisis between east and west, between Nato and Russia, which | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
was completely unnecessary and completely contrary to any | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
legitimate war aims. Could it not still be put together? I wish it | :24:41. | :24:48. | |
would, I suspect it won't. If we had time to discuss it I would operate | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
this point. Turkey is the source of this problem, the Turkish border has | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
been open to these people. They have been selling billions of dollars | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
worth of oil. A lot of it is being stolen by Isil and sold in Turkey, I | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
believe to relatives of President Erdogan, which is then sold onwards | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
to neighbouring countries. You cannot be serious about fighting | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
Isil while you're Nato ally is openly collaborating with them. You | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
follow closely what is going on in the Labour Party at the moment, does | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
Jeremy Corbyn have an alternative to a free vote when this comes up for a | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
vote in the Commons? If I were him, I would whip the vote because his | :25:39. | :25:54. | |
enemies in the ... Because our record on intervention is so bad, | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
because the likelihood of it not going well is so high, I would dare | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
these rebels to facilitate David Cameron's court. Is that the | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
intention? It looks to me as if it is ripping itself apart. This is | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
Ramsay MacDonald in reverse, the leader remaining loyal to the party | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
and the MPs joining effectively and national government in terms of War | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
and peace at least so if I were Jeremy Corbyn, I would whip this | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
vote and let the Labour members pass verdict on those that troop into the | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
lobby with Liam Fox and David Cameron because I am pretty sure | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
this is not going to end well. Even at the expense of ripping apart the | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
Shadow Cabinet too? You would be whipping the Shadow Cabinet where | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
there seems to be a majority against Jeremy Corbyn's position. Some of | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
them might surprise you with their fidelity to the party in those | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
circumstances, others might go. They are supporting the elected leader in | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
the way the rope supports a hanging man. What are the chances of Jeremy | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
Corbyn following your advice? Probably not, I would think | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
listening to John McDonald and Ken Livingstone they will go for a free | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
vote, that will merely postponed... And give David Cameron his big | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
majority. Yes. It seems to me time to face that up. Thank you very | :27:29. | :27:44. | |
much. At this point we say goodbye to viewers in Scotland. | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
Party divisions on the issue of air strikes | :27:48. | :27:48. | |
Here's the Conservative MP and chairman of the Defence Select | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Committee, Julian Lewis, speaking in the Commons debate on Thursday. | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
Air strikes alone will not be effective, | :27:56. | :27:56. | |
they've got to be in coordination with credible ground forces. | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Now, the suggestion there are 70,000 non-Islamist, moderate, credible | :28:00. | :28:01. | |
ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation to me and I suspect | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
I've been joined by former Conservative Defence | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Two years ago you want to Britain to bomb the forces of President Assad, | :28:09. | :28:22. | |
who is fighting Islamic State, now you want us to bomb Islamic State, | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
which is fighting President Assad. Doesn't map flip-flop undermine your | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
credibility? The original vote was very different, it was because Assad | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
had used chemical weapons in breach of international law against his | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
civilian population and the question then was worthy international | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
community going to uphold that international law by making a | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
punitive strike to teach the Assad regime and the rebels, who it was | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
suspected might also have chemical weapons, that it would not be | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
acceptable to use them. But it would have created more chaos in Syria and | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
allowed Islamic State to benefit, to exploit that, as it had done | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
previously. I'm not sure I'd buy that because if you have made a | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
relatively small number of punitive strikes from some of the command and | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
control of the regime to send a signal not to use chemical weapons | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
again, that would have upheld the international community's position. | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
Do you accept that extending British bombing into Syria now against | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
Islamic State this time is not a military game changer, that it is -- | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
its military impact will be marginal at most? I think its military impact | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
may be moderate at best, I accept that, however within that we have a | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
number of weapons systems that can diminish the chance of civilian | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
casualties, and I think that's important because it denies a | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
propaganda weapon. Obviously anything that reduces civilian | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
casualties is vital, but it won't change things very much on the | :30:07. | :30:07. | |
ground militarily. The fact we have not been there has | :30:08. | :30:19. | |
been an encouragement for other countries. For example, Saudi | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
Arabia, UAE, Jordan, in recent months they have stopped | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
contributing to the air campaigns. It makes it more difficult for us to | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
persuade them to take part if we are not taking part. We have a | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
militarily absurd policy of bombing in Iraq but not in Syria. After we | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
have joined America, France, Bahrain, Syria, Russia, Australia, | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
and recently Saudi Arabia and the UAE in bombing IS in Syria, what | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
then? The question is, our ability to degrade military capability. One | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
of the problems with sorties in Iraq is command and control is coming | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
from Syria. That is where they are drawing strength from. The US has | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
launched 2703 strikes in Syria alone and others have carried out 154. Why | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
is that not doing the degrading? You have to carry out the number of | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
attacks to provide that degradation. We need to continue that. The | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
question you are alluding to is the right question. Even if you have | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
degraded the ices capabilities, which is what we want, what is the | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
next step? How do you hold any territory you may take from them? | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
Part of the reply from the Prime Minister is there are 70,000 | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
moderate opposition fighters ready to become the ground force against | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
Islamic State. Who is the leader and what do they want? You have a | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
disparate grouping. Not 70,000 acting together. What the Prime | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
Minister was saying from the joint intelligence committee, what they | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
are saying was, there is a potential force of that size. The longer we | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
wait to do great ices, the smaller that force is likely to be and the | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
less its capabilities are likely to be. -- Isis. It is a fantasy to say | :32:24. | :32:32. | |
there are 70,000 ground troops ready to come in and help on the ground if | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
we extend the bombing to Syria. Let's assume the numbers are | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
correct. To further questions we have to ask. Are they willing to | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
operate together as a single force? The second is, do they have the | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
capability to do so? Over the next few days, part of the debate will be | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
around that. It will be around the fact you may have to supply some of | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
those forces with mentoring and training to enable them to be able | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
to be an effective force against Isis, which they have not | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
necessarily been able to up until now. The wacky experience on that | :33:13. | :33:22. | |
was disastrous. I would say, look at the other side. -- the wacky | :33:23. | :33:30. | |
experience. Look at our ability to mental the Afghan army. Isn't it | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
inevitable that everyone to make progress against Islamic State, in | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
some way, President Assad and the Russians will have to become our | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
allies? This is a very difficult pill to swallow for many people, who | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
think the regime is particularly unpleasant. I would love to see a | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
different regime in place that was not killing its civilian population | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
and gay people in Syria chance to discover their own future. But, as | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
we have done in previous military situations, sometimes we have to | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
recognise these challenges have to be dealt with in series, not in | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
parallel. That is what is very important about the statement by the | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
Prime Minister. It is not an ices only strategy but Aaron -- Raqqa | :34:20. | :34:31. | |
only strategy but and Raqqa first strategy. You are saying you are | :34:32. | :34:42. | |
getting support of factions. The important thing is we bring together | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
all those who want to deal with IS first. They are the threat to | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
national. We need to grasp the size of that threat to national to. They | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
hate us, Andrew. Not because of what we do because of who we are. They | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
will never stop that. Why would we get help from non-IS forces on the | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
ground if we are also seem to be on the side of the Russians? They are | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
also a threat to those people inside Syria. It is in the interests of all | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
parties concerned to deal with what is a highly ideological, dangerous, | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
fascistic threat. They endanger regional security. We must not allow | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
them Hello and welcome to the | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
Sunday Politics Wales. Does Wales win or lose from | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
George Osborne's spending review? We hear from the Welsh Government's | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
finance minister. How sustainable is | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
the current university tuition fee Could a UK Government economic | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
statistics review lead to job But first, | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
as we've been hearing already this morning, next week there's likely to | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
be a vote on whether or not the UK should take part in air strike | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
against so-called IS in Syria. The RAF has already taken part in | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
1,600 missions against the group in Iraq, but doesn't have the authority | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
to widen the attack in the region. Some Conservative MPs have | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
misgivings, so David Cameron really needs as much support as | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
possible from opposition benches. Plaid Cymru and the SNP say | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
the Prime Minister has failed to convince them of the merits | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
of air strikes. Over the weekend, the | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has been phoning Labour MPs trying to | :36:37. | :36:38. | |
get their support for air strikes. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
e-mailed party members setting out his opposition | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
and seeking their views. Early this morning, | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
I spoke with one MP who has sought the view of her constituents | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
through social media and says overwhelmingly the response has | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
been against air strikes. I'm almost certain that | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
I'll vote against air strikes. I'd thought about it | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
for a long time, I've been getting correspondence from constituents | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
for a number of weeks about it. I'm pretty certain I'm | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
going to vote against. There was nothing | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
in the statement this week that gave me any more information or any | :37:14. | :37:15. | |
more comfort about the fact this is a coherent and long-term plan | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
for the problem of Isil Daesh. How much of a concern is it for you | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
that there doesn't seem, at the moment, to be a plan for what will | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
happen after the bombing campaign? There could be that power vacuum and | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
everyone is painfully aware of what Do you have actual concerns | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
about what would happen The Prime Minister is talking | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
about air strikes and 70,000 Syrian Free Army that he thinks will | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
fill that vacuum in territory I don't think this figure is | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
plausible or credible and I'm waiting to hear much more | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
about a plan beyond the bombing. We're not hearing anything about | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
that at the moment and I'm very, very concerned we don't learn the | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
lessons of previous interventions in IS it also a difficult | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
issue for the Labour Party specifically considering that it was | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
under Tony Blair's leadership that the Labour Party | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
went to war in Iraq and all Does it make it more difficult for | :38:18. | :38:19. | |
the party to have a clear line I don't think any of the parties | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
have a particularly clear line. If you look at the Conservative | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
Party, there are very senior MPs there who are concerned about it | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
and will probably vote against it, like the chair of the Defence | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
Select Committee, Julian Lewis. There are differences of views | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
in the Labour Party as well. I happen to think it's a matter | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
of conscience. Something like this, | :38:44. | :38:45. | |
it's a matter of individual conscience for individual MPs | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
and we will make our own minds up regardless of what party we are in | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
and who is leading the party. That point you make about | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
down to the individual, the importance of the vote on this, | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
it seems to me to suggest you think there should be a free vote within | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the Labour Party on that. I would be perfectly happy with | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
a free vote. Clearly, there are great differences | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
between individuals I think a free vote, in my view, | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
would be a good idea. Are you disappointed then | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
when you see your colleagues within the Parliamentary group of | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
Labour MPs, who are making this almost into a larger issue than just | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
Syria itself? It is seen very much now through | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
the lens of, it's an issue of leadership for Jeremy Corbyn. | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
Is that a disappointment to you? I think it is very unfortunate | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
the issues have been conflated. Whether or not we join a war in | :39:34. | :39:35. | |
Syria is a grave and serious issue. To conflate that with internal | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
Labour Party politics by some of my colleagues, maybe by people outside | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
of the Labour Party, I think is trivialising the issue of whether or | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
not we should join a war in Syria and the impact and effact that | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
have, not just on civilians in Syria, but on the | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
risk of a threat here in the UK. Does some of that responsibility | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
lie with Jeremy Corbyn himself? We know there's supposed to be | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
a meeting of Labour MPs to discuss And yet we've already seen | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
from him a letter to MPs and party members saying, | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
I can't support this air strike. It's a problem, to an extent, | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
of his own making. It's no secret that Jeremy | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
is opposed to air strikes. If you'd asked before he even | :40:23. | :40:24. | |
sent the letter people would have Jeremy's has had | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
a long-standing view. But he is a leader | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
and is trying to build a consensus. But also I've been getting letters | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
and e-mails from colleagues So there are a lot of Labour MPs | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
putting forward their views, trying to persuade their colleagues | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
one way or another. Is this the kind | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
of thing that could become a far larger issue for Jeremy Corbyn in | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
terms of splits within the party? If that does happen, how much of | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
a negative impact do you think that will have looking ahead to next | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
May's Assembly elections in Wales? I think the two issues have been | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
conflated, I think we need to separate them and focus needs to be | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
on making the decision about whether That is what we should | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
be concentrating on. The other issues, they can be | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
for another day. The Assembly elections are some way | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
off, clearly we've got to unite as a He's got a clear democratic mandate | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
to lead the party and we need to go out there and persuade people | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
they should vote Labour next year. When you think about the policies | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
of the Welsh Government which have had a greatest direct impact on the | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
pockets of voters here, the tuition In England, students pay around | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
?9,000 a year in tuition fees. In Wales, they pay ?3,500, wherever | :41:41. | :41:49. | |
in the UK they want to study. The Welsh Government picks up | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
the tab for the rest, The policy is very generous to | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
students from Wales but universities They say too much money follows the | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
students out of Wales and into the So, tomorrow, | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
they will call for the current tuition fee grant to be scrapped and | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
replaced by a means tested grant. They say the Welsh Government has | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
a choice, provide a low-cost education for all or invest | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
in high-quality Welsh universities. I spoke with the chair | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
of Universities Wales, the body I think there are | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
a range options here. You could decide to spread | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
the source equally and relatively thinly or you could say, let's focus | :42:39. | :42:40. | |
it on the areas of most need. Those people who come from | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds, perhaps. Or areas | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
which need more support such as expensive subjects or areas that | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
are in tune with Welsh Government priorities, such as programmes | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
which support economic development. But, essentially, it would boil down | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
to, a student from a low-income background will still receive | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
the support he or she needs. A well-off student | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
from a well-off family will probably have to find a lot more money to | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
study either in Wales or elsewhere That would depend very much on | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
the outcome of the Diamond review. But means testing would suggest | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
how it is going to happen. Means testing would mean that | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
those students who really need Those who are more able to support | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
themselves would be able to do that. It is a system we have now | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
for maintenance grants. But, equally, with the current | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
tuition free grant the principal the Welsh Government is keen on is of | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
being able to offer it universally, regardless of background, regardless | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
of choice, where want to study. This proposal, | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
what you are suggesting, There is a question | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
of affordability here. Is it actually affordable to offer, | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
as it were, a flat rate tuition fee support to all students of all | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
backgrounds wherever they study? That is the question that | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
needs to be addressed. That is what Sir Ian Diamond | :44:14. | :44:15. | |
is going to be looking at. Not in the sustainable way at | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
the moment because the green paper that has been published now by the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
UK Government and the universities minister has made it very clear that | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
the teaching excellence framework that is contained within that | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
which will allow English is going to go ahead in some form or | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
other. It is a question of what the details | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
are around that. That would add cost to | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
the tuition fee grant in ways that I think there's a reason why | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
the review panel was set up to look at this system, to ensure it is | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
an affordable system which is fair, that serves the needs of Wales | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
and that supports Welsh students. Yet, I know you don't want to | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
prejudge the outcomes of that panel, that is understandable, but because | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
you say here the choice in future will be either low cost education or | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
investing in high-quality education, should that panel come back and say, | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
the status quo is OK, that is going to be damaging for | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
universities in Wales? There is a range of options | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
between those two poles. Those at the polls on a range | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
of options. You can have something between | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
low-cost and low quality In other words you can have | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
a balance between those things and it is a very complicated set | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
of circumstances this. I imagine that | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
the proposals that eventually come forward to be quite sophisticated, | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
will be quite nuanced and will A union has told this programme that | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
staff at the Office for National Statistics in Newport are | :45:52. | :46:01. | |
anxious that a major UK Government review will lead to jobs leaving | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
south Wales altogether. The former deputy governor | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
of the Bank of England, Sir Charlie Bean, was appointed | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
by the Treasury to look at the way Investment has grown more than twice | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
as fast as consumption, our economy this year is predicted | :46:16. | :46:24. | |
to grow by 2.4%. Today the state accounts for just | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
under 40% of national income and it's forecast to reach 36.5% | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
by the end of the spending review. We were caught in a blizzard of | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
stats this week as the Chancellor Showering us all with fractions, | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
percentages and decimals. It isn't just a comfort people are | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
choosing, it is the look as well. At George Osborne's request | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
that is the question this man Sir Charlie Bean began | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
his review into the production of UK statistics nearly four months ago, | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
and on Wednesday we'll get to read The former deputy governor | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
of the Bank of England says he is trying to ensure the UK's economic | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
statistics are future proofed and suited to the challenges posed | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
by a dynamic economy. As the primary source of UK economic | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
data, Sir Charlie's review will focus on the Office of National | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
Statistics and its Newport base. This is where two thirds of the | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
organisation's staff have been working for the past few years, | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
since the relocation programme was Although, that is a degree | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
of concern here now for the future. We have 2000 people working here | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
at Newport for ONS. 600 working directly | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
on economic statistics. That is what Charlie Bean's | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
review is looking at. We believe we produce high-quality | :47:49. | :47:50. | |
economic statistics, we don't want to see any of our work | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
or jobs moving out of Newport. Do you think that could be | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
a possibility? We welcome any recommendation coming | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
from the Bean review to increase economic expertise in London because | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
they can liaise with Treasury, We would not welcome, and we would | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
strongly oppose, any proposal to In recent times | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
the ONS has been criticised for the quality of its work and some | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
have questioned the decision to take They say the move to Newport saw | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
many experienced statisticians Whilst the relationship | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
between the ONS and institutions like the Treasury and the Bank | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
of England has been weakened by the Sioned Lewis is | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
a research consultant who appreciates the value of data and | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
the importance of getting it right. I've not had cause for concern | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
but there are rumblings about the quality, issues have | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
been raised about errors and so on. Also, at a wider sense, there is | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
the sense that the ONS might not be as innovative as they could be | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
in using all sources available, in There has been a continuous barrage | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
of criticism of the ONS in Newport since it first came and | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
particularly from the establishment of statisticians in London who want | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
everything in the capital city. The ONS has been | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
a brilliant success from the point of jobs, from the point of | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
view of new skills to the area. Sir Charlie Bean has previously | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
suggested he thinks the ONS's performance has deteriorated | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
and the relocation to Newport came at a cost, one that can't be | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
recovered by simply moving Though he will look | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
at the possibility of expanding the London based team | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
he's also said Newport could become Meanwhile, | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
the ONS told us that it welcomed the Bean review as an opportunity | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
to review systems and processes And the organisation looks forward | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
to reading the interim report recommendations | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
when it is published this week. The Welsh Government said the ONS | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
plays a vital role and it is proud the organisation is | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
based in South Wales. We may get a better idea this week | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
what the future could hold for this It's been a big couple of week | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
for Parliament. As well as discussions | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
on air strikes against IS last week, saw the Chancellor outlining | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
his plans for public spending over Well, George Osborne said | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
the block grant of money to be used by the Welsh Government would raise | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
to ?15 billion by 2020. Control of some | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
of the income tax levied here can be devolved to the Welsh Government | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
without a referendum, he said. Mr Osborne also promised that | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
spending per head on devolved services | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
in Wales would not fall below 115% Let's discuss those issues | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
and many others now with the Welsh Government's finance minister, | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
Wales's Chancellor, Jane Hutt. Thank you very much by coming in | :51:14. | :51:25. | |
this morning. I know you've got some concerns about the overall spending | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
block grant coming to Wales. Let's start with a couple of more positive | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
snippets coming out of that statement. The city region for | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
Cardiff, match funding perhaps for that. Is there anything you can tell | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
us about that? The city region for Cardiff isn't it important | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
opportunity, working closely with turn local authorities in south-east | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
Wales. We have said what we would offer and we need to work this. We | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
need to know what the UK Government will offer. Since Glasgow got its | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
city dear, Wales has got to get it steel. It shouldn't just be the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
Cardiff City Legion. What about Swansea Bay? Huge disappointment | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
about electrification. What about North Wales? That was positive but I | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
have to say let's face it about this spending review announcement on | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
Wednesday, 4.5% cut to our budget. Of times ahead. For all those people | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
who were frightened about what happened with their tax credit, yes, | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
a screeching U-turn but it'll hit them in the Universal Credit. | :52:39. | :52:49. | |
You mentioned a 4.5% cut by 2020 the budget of the most government. It | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
will go up to ?15 billion by 2020 where we account for the UK | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
Government many and the money generated in Wales. If you think | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
that is a 4.5% cut, how many difficult decisions is the Welsh | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
Government going to have to make? Very difficult decisions because as | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
we have said, he gives with one hand and takes to the other. The huge | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
cuts to Whitehall departments, local government in England, 56%, this has | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
to be factored into how we get the consequential is for health and | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
against all the other departments. Very tough times. We have already | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
had an 80% real term cut. Real difficult decisions. This is the | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
late spending review. I have to present a budget in a few days' time | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
which is going to address these issues. Giving you have to work with | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
these that within these constraints, what does it mean for the | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
nonessential services and policies the Welsh Government have | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
introduced? Example, three prescriptions, bus passes and | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
hospital parking. This is mean those kind of policies will have to go out | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
the window because you don't have the money for those kinds of | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
policies? It has always been about priorities. What can we do to | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
mitigate, to safeguard people against cuts. People on low incomes. | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
That has been important to concessionary fares and free | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
prescriptions and stop the priorities have meant I have spent | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
more on health per head and that came out in the figures from the | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
Treasury two weeks ago. I spend more per head, 7% more per head, on | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
Health and Social Care Act. There was Labour government has had to | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
drive its own priorities and a lot of this is about to decisions in a | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
few days' time. So far, you have been able to keep those | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
non-essential policies. Can you give a guarantee those will make it | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
through the next Labour manifesto, for example? I we facing such a | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
difficult economic time in Wales those kind of things can speak | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
Antiguan future? I have managed to balance the budget to make sure we | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
do prioritise those all-important services. We have to look at the | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
detail, such a late spending review, I'm going to present my draft budget | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
on the 8th of December and then we will see how that can pan into our | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
future commitments in our manifesto for next year. This is a time where | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
we need to look to ways in which we can support business and we can also | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
support the most vulnerable and poorest people in our communities. | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
Investing in Health and Social Care Act is vital and we have | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
demonstrated we can do that. But also to our children, young people | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
and business. That is where the challenge comes from the government. | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
One thing that has to be said this government could have come to us | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
with a joint agreement, I am showing you a joint agreement between the HM | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
government and the Welsh Government three years ago about our funding. | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
We still haven't got fair funding. We welcome the fact there is a flaw. | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
We haven't got the detail of the security we know that uptake is | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
forward. A funding floor, for viewers who aren't familiar, it is | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
the minimum spend from the UK Government as will come to Wales | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
which George Osborne has -- set at 115%. For every pound that will be | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
spent in England, one to 50 will be spent in Wales. That is what ifs | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
Gerald Holtham recommended. Everyone in Wales knows what fair funding | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
means. They want to see us in the most government, cross-party of | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
possible, sort this out. We welcome the fact they've come up with a | :56:54. | :56:55. | |
funding floor but they have guaranteed that warranted and 15%. | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
Until I sit down and get an intergovernmental agreement, because | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
at the moment they are saying it is only for this term of Parliament. | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
I'm ready to talk to Ben... Even Carwyn Jones says that to be a | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
short-term measure anyway. Five years seems to address that. In | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
April, it is important we get this device called a Barnett floor. That | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
is according to Carwyn Jones. In Jones, he said, that means the last | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
obstacle for income tax to be decided by the Welsh Government is | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
removed for him. You have got the flooding floor, why aren't you not | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
saying, brilliant' -- funding floor. As I said on the day, we were | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
disappointed that the Chancellor said this is only for this term of | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
Parliament. It is important we sit down, work at the detail. It could | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
be reset for the next Parliament. That means they could get rid of it. | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
We have to output this... The Barnett Formula has been here 1978. | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
We need the permanent funding floor. If we secure that and I am willing | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
to sit down with the UK Government and secure that long-term | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
intergovernmental agreements, I do believe we have made progress in | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
getting fairer funding for Wales. Thank you for coming to less this | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
moniker Don't forget you follow all | :58:29. | :58:29. | |
the latest on Twitter. But for now that's all from me, | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
time to go back to Andrew. officers will be lost? | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
We are going to let that question hang now. Thank you. Andrew. | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
Sadly that is it for today because we have just been told we have been | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
truncated to make way for live coverage of the Davis Cup tennis | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
final here on BBC One. There is always next week! | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :59:03. | :59:17. |