Browse content similar to 06/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Police say they're treating a multiple stabbing in London | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
as the the RAF intensifies its bombing campaign over Syria, | :00:45. | :00:54. | |
is this the latest sign of an evolving threat on British streets? | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Labour scored a significant win at this week's Oldham by-election | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
but after a tough week for Jeremy Corbyn | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
there are more reports of smears, abuse and even talk of a purge. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
We'll be speaking to a member of the shadow cabinet. | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
Later in the programme: that has its rebels, | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
Will the latest airstrikes against so-called IS make us more | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
Boris Johnson add cycling revolution on the ground in Syria? | :01:21. | :01:32. | |
Boris Johnson add cycling revolution is proving controversial, is the | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
mayor backing bikes over other road users? | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
And joining me for all of that, three journalists who've dutifully | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
battled through the wind and the rain to get here, | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
even without the threat of a telling off from Andrew. | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh, | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
and they'll be tweeting throughout the show. | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
that police are treating an attack at a London underground station | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
A man carrying a knife was reported to have screamed, | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
as he injured three men at Leytonstone station | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
making it potentially the first terrorist attack on British soil | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
since the murder of fusilier Lee Rigby in 2013. | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
Mobile phone footage shows police officers | :02:18. | :02:18. | |
wrestling with a man after he had been tasered. | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
He was later arrested and remains in custody. | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
The Metropolitan Police said one man suffered serious knife injuries | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
but was not thought to be in a life-threatening condition, | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
while two other victims received minor injuries. | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
Well, the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
has this morning called the attack an "abomination", | :02:40. | :02:41. | |
and we can speak now to the local MP John Cryer | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
Your response? It is an appalling attack. And it is frightening, very | :02:44. | :02:55. | |
frightening for local people. I've been talking to some of the local | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
businesses this morning and obviously they are all very worried | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
about it now. What the background is, what the motivation is, I do | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
think it would be particularly helpful to speculate at the moment. | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
-- I don't think it would be particularly helpful. So I'd rather | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
not do that. But when something like this happens in your own area, it is | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
not something expect. Leytonstone is a peaceful area, a lot of | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
communities live together extremely peacefully and harmoniously, that's | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
one of the great things about this area. People will be scared and | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
understandably so, as you say, so what is your message to constituents | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
as they wake up to this news? I think the message is that we carry | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
on as normal, that we don't allow this sort of barbaric behaviour to | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
change our lives. And I think that's the important thing. And I think | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
people will continue as well. I'm not saying people will be blase | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
about it, people will be very concerned. But I don't think people | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
will allow this to change the way they live their lives on a | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
day-to-day basis, that's the impression I've had from the people | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
I've been talking to this morning. Now, this has happened just days | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
after parliament voted for air strikes in Syria, people are bound, | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
rightly or wrongly to draw a link between the two, what say you? | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
Welcome I was opposed to the air strikes in Syria, I voted against | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
air strikes in Syria, I think it will prove to be quite a major | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
mistake. I am not convinced that this will be connected to the air | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
strikes in Syria. Well I just don't know at the moment so we can only | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
speculate. But there doesn't seem to be immediately evidence that there | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
is a direct link. But we have to find out what the background is. | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Police are investigating. I have been in contact with police this | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
morning. At I think it would be dangerous to say this is a direct | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
consequence of air strikes in Syria. And as I say I am a fairly major | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
critic of the government's activities. Thank you. | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
This comes after the so-called Islamic State | :05:08. | :05:09. | |
claimed a husband and wife who massacred 14 people | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
were supporters of the terrorist group. | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
So is this just the latest sign that the West faces a new type of threat? | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Well, we're joined now by the security expert Will Geddes. | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
At the moment it looks like a lone wolf, no accomplices, no | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
organisation in any major way behind it, is that how you read it? I think | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
pretty much so. It is incredibly difficult to say right now and again | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
it is dangerous to speculate too much until the police have | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
undertaken their investigations to determine how this individual was | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
motivated, under what particular an brother that might have been, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
whether it was alone, whether it was a self radicalisation process -- | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
what particular an umbrella that might have been. We have been | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
expecting an attack because we have had the Paris attacks, we have had | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
the attacks in Southern California, and there had been warnings about | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
it, and the terror threat is still extremely high. So we shouldn't be | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
that surprised. No, I don't think we are. And I think we are accepting | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
the fact that unfortunately we are at a very high risk level intervals | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
of these types of attacks. And this precedes the Syrian bombing | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
agreements in terms of the fact that there were seven significant plots | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
foiled this year. We have always been on the radar, it is just down | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
to the capabilities of the individuals. Sadly, certainly in the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
wake of this most recent incident, it will be the platform of lone | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
wolves more than anything else. Do you think that is the case? That is | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
the most recent pattern, that might be what continues in, unfortunately, | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
capitals across Europe? I think we have to be pragmatic and accept | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
that. Ultimately we know that the individuals that are planning as | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
cells have a far higher chance of detection. So individuals working on | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
their own, whether it be in a very specific conceptual sort of agenda | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
and motivation or whether it be an individual that is simply aligned to | :07:09. | :07:18. | |
the ideologies of Daesh will add to the spectrum of Brett. Nick Watt, | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
what do you think the little reaction will be? We have had some | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
reaction from Jon Cryer saying stay vigilant but don't be blase. That | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
was an incredibly important contribution you had from John | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
Cryer, he is not just the local MP, E is the chairman of the | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Parliamentary party. In that capacity Jeremy Corbyn invites him | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
to attend the Shadow Cabinet. He voted against air strikes and he is | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
being held up as how the majority of opinion in the Labour Party is | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
against air strikes. He was absolutely clear saying it would be | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
dangerous to say that this attack in Leytonstone is in any way linked to | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
the vote in parliament. The reason why that is significant is that | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
there will be some people and indeed we are already seeing some people on | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
Twitter saying that this attack in Leytonstone is as a result of that | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
vote. Well, the chairman of the PLP who voted against the air strikes | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
said it would be dangerous to make that conclusion. But people will | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
make those links and they will continue to do so particularly in | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
the light of Michael Fallon saying the bombing campaign is intensifying | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
in Syria and there are likely to be civilian cavities. They may well do | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
so but what strikes me about this attack, is awful and horrible as it | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
is for everybody involved, is that it is a rather pathetic and little | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
attack. Very happily the victim, as we understand it, is not going to | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
die as a result of this attack. What strikes me is, were we in America | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
and were the people who are prone to do these things able to get their | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
hands on guns, this would have been a mass casualties could well have | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
been a mass casualties attack. As it was, we're left with somebody just | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
randomly stabbing and not really getting anywhere. Do you think | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
people are ready for how long this campaign is going to go on for, and | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
we are going to live in the shadow indirectly or directly of a | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
terrorist threat? I don't know if people are ready for just Syria or | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
maybe five years worth of security being one of the top three issues in | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
the country. If you look at the issues index, most salient to voters | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
in recent years, it has been the usual economy, NHS, immigration to a | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
certain extent. I wonder whether, by the time of the next election | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
because of this fairly consistent terror threat, security is even | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
number one, two or three. We've got the investigatory Powers Bill going | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
through Parliament at the moment and I think that kind of legislation, | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
the presence of a terror threat, the kind of thing that is on the evening | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
news might overnight over five years will change what we consider to be | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
the most salient issues in British issues -- night after night. There | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
had been reports that one of the Paris attackers had travelled to | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
Britain earlier this year, and the chair of the Home Affairs Select | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
Committee said it is a real worry that people are able to get through | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
our borders without being detected. How worried are you by those | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
reports? I think we are playing a bit of a catch-up game and | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
unfortunately we have to appreciate it many capabilities in tens of the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
border force a Metropolitan Police and police agencies across the UK. | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
Although there have been positive suggestions by the government in | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
terms of boosting numbers within the security services, for example, you | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
are still looking at approximately 18 months before those 1900 new | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
heads within GCHQ and security services will be operationally able | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
to fulfil their mission. Briefly on the police numbers, also a very | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
controversial issue in terms of the spending review, that didn't happen, | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
the cuts that people feared, the government will be relieved they did | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
not make those cuts? Iain Duncan Smith in condemning these attackers | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
as an abomination made that exact point, saying we kept those police | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
numbers and they will be important in terms of attacking the terrorist | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
threat. Now, the Prime Minister had hoped to | :11:02. | :11:02. | |
sign off his plans for a renegotiation of Britain's EU | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
membership later this month. have decided not give him an early | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Christmas present, and that means the referendum on | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
whatever deal he does get Last month David Cameron sent a | :11:12. | :11:24. | |
letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council setting out the | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
EU reform demands. There were four main areas he once renegotiated. | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
Protection for non-Europe countries and safeguarding their rights. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
Exemption from an ever closer union. And more powers for national | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
parliaments. Restore competitiveness in the EU which involves cutting red | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
tape and free trade agreements with other economies. And finally, the | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
one causing the most headaches, restricting benefits for EU | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
migrants. Under the Prime Minister's plans, EU migrants would | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
not be able to claim any in work benefits for four years. On Thursday | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
David Cameron abandoned hopes for an early referendum as early as May | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
next year after admitting he would not be able to get the deal he wants | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
at an EU summit in two weeks' time. Donald Tusk will on Monday published | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
an assessment of the British demands in a letter to the 27 other member | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
states. It follows a round of confessionals in which governments | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
have outlined their concerns. He said December's meeting will pave | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
the way for a deal in February. By then David Cameron will be forced to | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
decide whether to campaign for a Brexit or stay in the EU. | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
and committed eurosceptic Iain Duncan Smith | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
has been speaking on The Andrew Marr show this morning, | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
and he said the delay was a sign of strength, not weakness. | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
Well the mood is actually very upbeat. I'm involved in putting | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
together the package that the Prime Minister wants to take to the | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
council. So we've been deep in discussion about that. The Prime | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
Minister has been pretty clear throughout that he wants to take a | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
package that supports the manifesto commitment. In my area for example | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
on welfare it is very clear that he wants to have that commitment, | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
people living here and contributing to the system, and that will be one | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
of the key elements. We did ask for a government minister | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
to talk to us about the prime minister's renegotiation plans | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
but were told none was available. we can speak instead to the | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin, of the eurosceptic Conservatives | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
For Britain group and he joins us | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
from our Westminster studio. Welcome to the programme. Are you as | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
upbeat and optimistic as Iain Duncan Smith? No. Ironic, really, because | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
he and I were elected on the same day in 1992 and we both opposed the | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
Maastricht Treaty. We both spare about the direction of the European | :13:53. | :14:02. | |
Union. -- we both despair. And while he is gamely supporting the Prime | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
Minister's negotiation in its centre is, I think he knows in his heart | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
that this is a very lame renegotiation compared to what the | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
Prime Minister was originally promising. I mean, there are a whole | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
range of things that the Prime Minister wanted, like getting out of | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
all the home affairs and justice revisions of the Lisbon Treaty, like | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
getting a complete opt out of the EU Charter of fundamental rights, which | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
is, for example, gives the power to the European court of justice to | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
decide prisoner voting and not just the European Court of Human Rights, | :14:41. | :14:41. | |
and so it goes on. But, you know, you know Iain Duncan | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
Smith well, he is not known as a raging Europhile, and if he is | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
optimistic and competent, certainly, publicly, the chances of a | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
meaningful deal of a deal with Europe, -- meaningful chance of a | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
deal with Europe, then why cannot you be? He is bound by his duty to | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
the cabinet, but I am free to speak my mind, Iain Duncan Smith focus | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
very narrowly on a very circular way, on his own, on the Prime | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
Minister's own terms of reference. The European Union has changed so | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
dramatically over the last 20 or 30 years, the question the British | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
people are going to have to face, do they want to carry on with this | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
journey? There is no status quo, is they want to carry on with the | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
journey of integration, because what the prime ministers negotiating | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
about, will not change the course of the European Union or the course of | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
the United Kingdom within the European Union. They are relatively | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
trivial, rather complicated, but relatively trivial negotiating | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
demands. He's going to get the deal by February. Even if he gets the | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
deal by February, it will not change the price of fish, it will not allow | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
the UK Parliament to determine our own laws and it will not restrict | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
the European court of justice, another of the Prime Minister's | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
demands that he has now dropped. It will not restore the opt out of the | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
social chapter, which was gained by John Major in the Maastricht Treaty, | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
it will not achieve any of these things. There was never going to be | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
enough concessions... I am glad you are making the point that this | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
renegotiation was never really going to address the fundamental | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
problems... Or, you were never going to be satisfied! The Prime Minister | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
was making these much tougher demands. He has dropped these | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
demands. I would be supporting the Prime Minister's negotiating | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
position if he had stuck to his demands. Which one in particular, if | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
there was one thing you would like to see him bring back which you | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
could sell to your constituents, what would it be? The fundamental | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
one, restrict the ability of the European Court of Justice to rule on | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
almost anything. Risen a voting, I mentioned, it is now moving to that | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
area. And the whole question of the relationship between those countries | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
that do not want to be in political union, do not want to be involuntary | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
union, do not want to be in the fiscal union treaty which has been | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
redesigned by the call Eurozone states. -- prisoner voting. What we | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
have got to face, this is not a status quo we are voting to stay in, | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
it is a continuing development of European Union integration, if you | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
want to have choices, you must vote Leave. It has been reported that the | :17:34. | :17:42. | |
campaign will campaign for Brexit. LAUGHTER | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
Would you welcome him leading the campaign from the out? You have | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
laughed... We would welcome him joining the vote to leave campaign, | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
but I don't think it is very likely, at the moment he is convincing | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
people he's being really tough but we know that this is what happens in | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
all EU negotiations, the government pretends to be tough, pretends to be | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
a showdown, and in the end, hey presto, rabbit out of the hat, | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
everything is marvellous. Game set and match for the British. Is there | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
any thing, do you think, that Iain Duncan Smith will be able to sell | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
once this renegotiation is done and dusted? Sell to the backbench... ? I | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
doubt it, I think... As Bernard has suggested, in January, 2013, when | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
David Cameron talked about renegotiation, he meant something | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
sweeping, even in addition to the thing is Bernard has mentioned, even | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
including flirting with the idea of some deep reform to European free | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
movement, that was what was being suggested two years ago. There is | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
not going to be anything approaching any of that in any deal that urges | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
early next year. As it stands a number of backbenchers will find | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
that hard to support. Tactic from Downing Street, to leak the idea | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
that David Cameron might conceivably support the leave campaign, slightly | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
misjudged, so transparent the obvious that he will not. If | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
anything, it was a message sent to other European capitals, " if I | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
don't do that smack if you do not do this deal, I may join the sceptics. | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
-- if you do not do this deal". I agree with Jan, nobody will take | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
seriously the idea that he will campaign for out because | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
fundamentally that is not what he believes, he wants to stay in and | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
has said seven the beginning. Bernard is right, there is a feeling | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
that the renegotiation will only achieve something rather cosmetic. | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
-- and has said so since the beginning. David Cameron may pull a | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
rabbit out of a hat and pretend that he has got a concession but people | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
will not be convinced. I leave it to Nick to stick up for the Prime | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
Minister in this particular instance, what would the rabbit in | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
the hat, the rabbit coming out of the hat, be, for David Cameron, once | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
this deal is done and dusted. It will be examined as rabbit, because | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
we will know about it! He cannot go beyond what he wrote in the letter | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
to Donald Tusk, the rabbit that he takes out of a hat which says, isn't | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
this amazing, isn't opt out from the historic commitment to ever closer | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
union, he will say it is significant... He will say it has an | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
impact on the European Court of judgment rulings, but the point is, | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
first, we know that is what he wants to achieve, and also, people like | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
Bernard, and we can see he is nodding (!), he will say this is | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
just a cosmetic change, it is not going to change the fundamental | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
privacy of EU law over EU law. -- fundamental primacy of EU law over | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
UK law. If there were a concession on in work benefits, many people | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
feel that is impossible, bearing in mind the laws, would that satisfy | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
you? It would not, in the end, the European Court of Justice will | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
always have the power to overturn Teva has been agreed, the problem | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
the Prime Minister has got, he started at the beginning with | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
grappling with quite some big things, but refusing to argue with | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
the overall architecture of the European Union. -- grappling with | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
some quite big things. If you do not change the architecture, nothing | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
will really change, except that the European Union will carry on | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
morphing into a state and we will be part of that, whether we are in out | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
of the Euro, ever closer treaty in the treaty -- ever closer union in | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
the treaty, not in the treaty, whatever. Thank you very much for | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
joining us. The real substance being debated | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
by MPs in the Commons on Wednesday may have been whether to extend air | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
strikes into Syria but it was the conflict inside | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's party that ended up | :21:51. | :21:52. | |
grabbing just as many headlines. Even when the party finally arrived | :21:53. | :21:54. | |
at a position, it couldn't heal the rift between | :21:55. | :21:56. | |
the leader and some of his MPs. The party received | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
a much-needed boost with a comfortable majority | :22:02. | :22:02. | |
in Thursday's by-election. So when it comes to Jeremy Corbyn's | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
Labour, just what do the voters | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
make of it all? Labour won the old by-election and | :22:08. | :22:19. | |
comfortable, there are majority was reduced but they increased their | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
share of the vote, Jeremy Corbyn says it shows that Labour is | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
electoral. We, with the help of the pollen company populace, have | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
gathered together a group of people that once voted Labour but did not | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
at the last election. We are going to hear of what they think of the | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
new Labour Party and behind this screen, we have two seasoned Labour | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
advisers to pass comment on what they hear. Vets get started. -- | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
polling company Populous. -- let's get started. All of the former | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
Labour voters are from London, and at the general election they spread | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
their approach to Ukip, the greens, conservatives and Lib Dem, all of | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
them felt Labour lost their vote over the economy, Ed Miliband and | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
being out of touch. What do they make of Labour today? -- Greens. | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
They are moving in the right direction, with a charismatic | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
leader, whose policies seem to be standing up for the average man. I | :23:14. | :23:24. | |
disagree, no disrespect, for me, I am quite a middle ground person, | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
going from the left to the right, they have gone far too left for me. | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
For me they are unelectable. He is very principled, I respect him for | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
that but I do not agree with his policies, particularly defence. | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
Initial impressions? Did people know who he was before he became the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
Labour leader? I had not. Had you heard of him? I had heard of him... | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
He seems principled, compassionate... He has used a term, | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
the new politics... Have you heard that? Yes... Do you know what he | :24:04. | :24:12. | |
means? Not specifically, I presume he means a different attitude | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
towards leading the party and the way they make decisions perhaps. | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
It goes back to the same problem, if you have a vague catchphrase and no | :24:24. | :24:31. | |
substance behind it... Maybe I am not seeing the strong leadership -- | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
leadership capability, I understand he's principled, but as a leader of | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
the country, I am not convinced. Does that sound like a good way of | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
changing things, giving them more freedom in the way that they vote? | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
It brings a more human feel, does not feel like everyone is a robot, | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
all of us in this room, we could all be voting for Labour but we would | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
all have different opinions on things. That is... That is a human, | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
you know, that is human nature. I think the fact that is being | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
respected, that is good. But, keeping it in line, how he's going | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
to manage that, that may be a problem. That woman has some up the | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
nub of the problem! That is pretty much their position right now. This | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
is a video clip... I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy in | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
general, I think that is quite dangerous. That is woolly. You | :25:32. | :25:42. | |
cannot go from principled to Willy and evasive, that is a problem. -- | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
woolly and evasive. You need crystal clear clarity on security issues. | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
You need to give somebody a bit of time, let them lace up their running | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
shoes (!), they find their own pace, and they get a little bit of time. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
It is early days, he has just started in the job. In time, he will | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
show, you know, a lot of strength will stop courage, I think. Why not | :26:12. | :26:21. | |
vote Labour this time? -- a lot of strength and courage. Labour was | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
giving benefits left right and centre, if somebody needs them, | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
fine, but they were in so much debt, the country was getting further and | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
further into debt. There was no end to it. Do you know the if Jeremy | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
Corbyn and John Madonna's government would spend more money, would they | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
put up taxes? -- do you know if they Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
government. I bet there is not a single specific about how it is | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
different. Despite the debate about austerity. They have not mentioned | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
that word once. The fact Labour have not articulated anything... They | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
have asked a leading question, so not to give that response, that | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
suggest, well,... We will not make up our minds... We do not know... | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
These people are not the British electorate, nor can they alone give | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
Labour a victory, but there will be plenty to note, as lost Labour | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
voters, they seem prepared to give Labour and Jeremy Corbyn time to bed | :27:31. | :27:31. | |
in. STUDIO: And I'm joined in the studio | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
now by the Shadow Work and Pensions | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
secretary, Owen Smith. We have had plenty of evidence from | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
the pollsters, you saw and heard some of it, at the last election | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
Labour was not trusted on the economy, particularly when it came | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
to managing the welfare bill, do you think you are on the way to learning | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
that trust? If you take the evidence of the poll that matters, the poll | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
with the people, looking at Oldham, then perhaps we are winning back | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
trust. There is no doubt we did not have it at the last election, that | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
is why Labour lost and lost badly, but we did win a victory on Thursday | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
in Oldham, up 10%, the Tories were down 10%. Perhaps we are in the | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
foothills of starting to win back trust. I recognise and Jeremy Ross | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
recognises we have a long way to go, almost five years until the next | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
election and we will have to put in place policies and ideas to win back | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
trust fully. -- Jeremy recognises. It was a Labour victory but that is | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
a Labour heartland, you should not be surprised that you did well | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
somewhere like Oldham, that is despite the policies of the national | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
party, you could say, it you could say it is because of a strong Labour | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
parliament, that is not a Nuneaton which you need to win back. But in | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
the media we were talking about lots of suggestions that Labour was going | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
to lose that seat, or if we win, we would win only by 1000. Labour MPs | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
themselves were saying that! That is my point. But the pollsters were | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
certainly saying in their view, we were likely to struggle. For us to | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
hold it as well as we did, increase the share of the vote from last time | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
around, 11,000 majority, you cannot say anything other than it was a | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
good victory for Labour. I think it has to be a vindication both of Jim | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
McMahon, the excellent candidate, now the MP for old, a good local guy | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
who has been a council leader, very well respected. -- Oldham. The kind | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
of community-based politicians that we produce in labour. -- community | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
rooted politicians. But also a vindication of Jeremy Corbyn and the | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
rebuilding of trust. Nobody in Oldham can be in any doubts as to | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
who is the leader of the Labour Party right now! | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
Let's talk about welfare, we heard the lady saying Labour was giving | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
benefits left, right and centre and leaving the country in so much debt, | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
how do you address that? Well, I think we've got to start by doing | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
what we did not do well enough under the last parliament which is call | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
out the line from the Tory party that the dead this country were in | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
and are still in, let's not forget the Tories have practically doubled | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
debt. Let's talk about welfare specifically. Happy to. The Labour | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
Party under Harriet Harman clearly felt it should move closer to the | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
Conservatives on welfare and not further away, the party did not vote | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
against their bill introducing ?12 billion of saving and Harriet Harman | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
said she was sympathetic to lowering the benefits cap. You did not vote | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
against the limit on child tax credits for two children. In that | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
vote we definitely were wrong and that's why Labour has now voted | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
against the welfare bill, and the reason for that is the reason many | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
people in this country, I think, have started to turn against the | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
Conservative Party. Because the tax credit changes that were at the | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
heart of that bill, and the heart of the ?12 billion savings. At you knew | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
about the tax credit bill and you were still in favour of a benefit | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
cap, at the time you were still in favour of lowering the benefit cap | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
and you wanted to limit it to child tax credits to two children. So was | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
that all a complete aberration? Well, as I said, I think those were | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
the wrong decisions. I actually argued within the Shadow Cabinet at | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
the time against our abstaining on that vote. I said in my conference | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
speech a couple of months ago that this is no time for the Labour Party | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
to be abstaining on whether we make poor people, working people, poorer, | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
in this country. People want the Labour Party to stand up for working | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
people. What is your evidence for saying people want you to do that? | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Harriet Harman announced that Labour did not oppose limiting tax credits | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
to two children because she said, we simply cannot say to the public that | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
you were wrong at the election. So who is representing the people here? | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
We might point to Heidi Allen, who you have got on the programme later, | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
or any of the other 20 or 30 Tory MPs who stood up against their own | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
Prime Minister just a few weeks ago. On tax credits? Saying that they got | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
it wrong on tax credits. The Tories describe that as welfare spending, | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
that was part of their ?12 billion at the election. It is entirely | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
legitimate for me to talk about that. Of course it is but it is not | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
just that. You said people want us to do this and I am trying to get | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
from you the evidence for that. Yes on tax credits but more broadly on | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
Labour's perception of people on Labour with welfare. We have seen | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
leaks from polling from Labour's learning the lessons task force | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
chaired by Margaret Beckett in which people said Labour was in full to | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
the undeserving, it needs to be for middle-class voters not just down | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
and outs. And a Labour win would have been good for people on | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
benefits and immigrants, anyone claiming money. How will you win an | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
election if people only see you as representing those groups? Well, | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
we've got to win an election because those groups and low and middle | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
income earners in Britain, the very people being hit by tax credit cuts | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
and now the universal credit cuts that are coming down the stream next | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
year, need a Labour government in order to introduce fairness. They | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
also want to know that we are in favour of free-form. There is no | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
doubting that. Where is the evidence for that? -- in favour of reform. | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
This is your own polling and it is not in line with what the public | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
want or how they view you. That's what I just said. In addition to | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
supporting in work benefits for people who are in low and middle | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
income jobs, like tax credits and universal credit, we also need to be | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
making an argument for reform. Do you accept you are not doing that? | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
Well I think we are only just starting to do that. I'm going to be | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
announcing in the New Year a big new commission by the Labour Party to | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
look at Social Security, to try to present a Labour alternative, | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
reformed social security system. There is no doubt that for | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
generations people have increasingly become Miss trust for of the social | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
securities system -- distrusting of the Social Security system. We need | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
to win back people's trust. It should be a massive positive for our | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
country that we have a generous welfare state, it is a positive. | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
Which policy decisions so far are going to back up that idea of reform | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
rather than people's idea that you are only four people on benefits if | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
you are trying to your appeal? And you have talked about tax credits, | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
but if you want to lower the benefit cap, if you now don't want to limit | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
tax credits, which policy areas now back up what you've just said about | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
reform? Well, we've said very clearly that we support the | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
government in capping the overall spending on social security. And the | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
benefit cap? Well, the benefit cap, interestingly, I think we've | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
reserved judgment on. But it was only two weeks ago... That wasn't | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
your view. Let me finish, if I may. Two weeks ago we had a legal opinion | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
from a judge in London that the benefit cap was discriminating | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
against disabled people. There is further evidence that the benefit | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
cap is not doing what the government set out to do, it is not saving | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
money because it means local councils are having to spend money | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
on discretionary housing payments to support people being made homeless | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
as a result of it. It isn't helping people back into work. It's only | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
around 4% of people seem to be getting any benefit. So the question | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
is, what is this benefit cap for in individual households? Yes we need | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
of course to have a limit on the amount of money that people can have | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
individually and as households but it has to reflect need. Well, that's | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
important, because listening to you there, it sounded like you wanted to | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
drop the idea of a benefit cap in principle. So you still support the | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
idea of a benefit cap at ?26,000 per year? No we don't. But you did at | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
the election support it? At the election we did, and since the | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
election we have changed our view. Our view is that cutting it to | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
?23,000 and ?20,000 which is what was included in the welfare bill, | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
I'm afraid it is a congregated lot of numbers but we've got to get into | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
them, that would mean that we would affect literally millions of people | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
across Britain and it would have resulted in hardship and would have | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
cost money. What should the cap be? We need to get back to a principle | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
that people use to understand which is the connection between the sorts | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
of support that you might receive from the state, the amount of money | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
you contribute, so getting back a connection between contribution and | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
reward, but also your need. So if you've got three children, or if you | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
fall pregnant in a period where you lose your job, you don't get | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
penalised for having that said child. It seems to me extraordinary | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
that the government is penalising children. You are not supporting a | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
cap at the moment? You cannot say ?26,000 was right, you are now | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
reviewing the whole policy? You agree with Jeremy Corbyn that it | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
results in social cleansing? I have been saying that for the last two | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
months, there is nothing new that. We said we would oppose the | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
reduction. When I spoke to you last time on daily politics you said you | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
would stick to the principle of the benefits cap. I did not. You said in | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
September that you wanted to have a benefit cap, in principle you did | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
not agree with lowering it to ?23,000, and Jeremy Corbyn was | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
against it. What I said very clearly, we were opposed to the | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
reduction to ?23,000 and ?20,000 outside London. I said we were | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
reviewing the concept of a benefits cap across the board. But that we do | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
accept that there have to be limits on the amount of money that an | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
individual households can get in benefits. And what we need to do is | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
get to a point where we've got a much fairer set of criteria to now | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
analyse and understand why we should be giving family X amount Y, and | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
that should reflect their need. The number of children, the nature of | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
work they are in, and the relative security of the family. The | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
fundamental principles we have always adhered to. Most viewers out | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
there will not understand a government that says we penalised | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
children we take money away from them on the basis of how many | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
children may have. You abstained on that issue earlier, but as you said, | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
you changed your mind. Should colleagues of yours be worried about | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
being sacked after voting against the leadership on air strikes? No, I | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
don't think they should be. Obviously I'm not in charge of | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
reshuffles, that's a job to Jeremy, but I just think this is newspaper | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
tittle tattle. What I've seen in the way in which Jeremy has handled this | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
in Shadow Cabinet is that he has been very keen to stress that we've | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
got to be respectful of the different views. I voted against, | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
others voted in favour, I don't think there is any reason, and I | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
think any abuse that anyone has been subject to as a result of decisions | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
taken in good conscience and good faith is disgraceful, and we should | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
not settle for it or allow it in the Labour Party. Owen Smith, thank you. | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :39:28. | :39:29. | |
Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be talking to | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
the Conservative MP who used her maiden speech to rebel against her | :39:35. | :39:44. | |
Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales. | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
A Welsh MP warns that the airstrikes against so-called IS | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
in Syria could radicalise more young Muslims here.The | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
leader of the Welsh Conservatives says military action is right | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
And two Syrian students tell us that they don't think | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
During last week's ten-hour Syria debate in the commons, | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
David Cameron said bombing the so called Islamic State militants | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
The attackers in Paris last month were heard shouting "this is | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
for Syria" - referring to France's involvement in air strikes there. | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
But even if it's true that we're a bigger target for IS because | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
of military action, should it be a reason for inaction? | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
Four days after the vote, and several RAF missions over Syria have | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
already been completed. | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
Triggered by a vote at Westminster on Wednesday night. | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
But in the cold light of day, the differences of opinion persist | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
over whether it will make people here and in Syria safer. | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
I fear the air strikes are going to create more refugees. | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
It is going to benefit Assad in the long-running | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
and I fear it is going to radicalise more young Muslims, not only in this | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
I understand when people say we want peace. | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Most of us in this country, most of us really do want peace. | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
But I think it is, how do we get that? | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
And in my mind, joining in with other countries, showing such | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
solidarity with France, coming in as part of an international force, | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
joining with about 60 countries now in that | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
countries at the Vienna talks, it is all part of it. | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
This constituency, Cardiff South and Penarth, home to the National | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
Assembly, is one of Wales's most diverse. | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
Earlier in the week, in the House of Commons debate, the | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
local MP Stephen Doughty talked about how some young Muslims here | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
But will targeting the extremists in Syria make that more or less | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
The local MP voted in favour of air strikes. | :41:54. | :42:02. | |
His assembly colleague is torn and isn't sure which way he would | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
The point is we already live in a world that isn't safe. | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
What happened in Paris could just have easily been | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
a city anywhere within Britain, including here in Cardiff. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
And let's not pretend that there aren't people already radicalised, | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
living in Britain as well, who may contemplate a sort | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
And if people can be attracted to the fascist cult that is Isis, then | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
the risk exists already, and that's what makes this such a difficult | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
choice, because I don't think anyone could hand on their heart say we | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
absolutely can guarantee we are safer for action, | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
or we can guarantee we are safer if we are not taking action, given we | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
For other Cardiff Bay politicians, there was no doubt | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
about the right course of action, and the need for air strikes. | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
We have the defence forces, we have intelligence | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
agencies, we have a government committed to national security and | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
to the security of individuals, and I think that is the way the British | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
people want their government to respond in making sure our country | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
The bombing started within hours, but gauging | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
whether the air strikes will lead to greater peace and security won't be | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
Joining us from our Carmarthen studio is Christopher Salmon - | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
the Dyfed Powys Police and Crime Commissioner - and a former soldier | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Good morning, thank you for joining us. Just give figure on that point | :43:40. | :43:54. | |
in the report, do you think we are safer now having bigger than these | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
air strikes against ISP? I think we can count ourselves lucky -- Isis. | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
We have a strong civic society. We have this well established | :44:09. | :44:10. | |
Institutes of government and security and a long history of | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
dealing with threats of all sort in this country. There are no easy | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
answers in this particular problem, and there are no bloodless answers. | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
We know we are at threat. It is right we tried to confront that | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
read, so where we are at the moment is in the process of dealing with | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
the problem we see that arrived in Paris in such terrible form not long | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
ago, and we know we are at threat here. Is there this new threat from | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
the so-called lone wolf attackers? We've seen in London yesterday, a | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
man, multiple stabbings in London, and reports of the man saying, this | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
is the Syria. Those kind of attacks are impossible to defend against, | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
aren't they? They are difficult, but this one was handled, it seems by | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
the people around it. Those threats already existed, and I don't predict | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
we see that the decision to extend what was happening in Iraq already | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
in terms of air strikes into Syria necessarily makes them any worse. IS | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
does not respect borders, it doesn't respect organisational boundaries. | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
We need to respond in kind and to act across borders where we need | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
to, and that is why it is the right action to use air power and to | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
confront them. You say it is right to use air power and to confront | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
them. You say it is right to use air powerful Iraq. Do you think air | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
strikes alone is sufficient, or do do they need to be boots on the | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
ground, soldiers being sent into Syria? I think ultimately, | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
personally, I find it hard to see how it will be resolved without | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
boots on the ground. The question is, whose boots are they? There are | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
local forces that are talked about a great deal. But if you are going to | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
arm them, you need to know who they are, and it's not easy. They need to | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
be working towards a common aim stop if it's not local forces come these | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
to be another form, maybe Western forces, that becomes much more | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
politically difficult. That's my personal view, but in the | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
short-term, let's not pretend air strikes effective, but in the long | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
term it is effective. We need to make these people's lives as a ball, | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
keep them on the move, keep them down. If they worrying about | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
building tunnels, they have less time to plan attacks. That's what | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
air strikes can help with. We've been conducting them in Iraq were | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
some time, and they have been successful with local forces in | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
pushing IS back. I would have thought the same logic will apply in | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
Syria, but therefore it is right we extend that reach. As I say, | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
personally, in the long run, it is hard to see how this will be | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
achieved without boots on the ground. You are the police and | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
crimes Commissioner for Powys, have you decided to increase the work | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
going on there to see if a terrorist threat... Has changed how you deal | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
with that port? It is a side of critical national infrastructure and | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
is guarded accordingly, so there are more than the usual level of | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
response officers around. There's a particular plan to police it, it's | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
something I've discussed with the chief constable. He is aware of the | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
threats as well. It is kept under constant review and is policed stop | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
it is policed alongside the Wales counter extreme unit and with the | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
counterterrorist police in London, so it stretches all the way across | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
the UK. It is a concern, will keep it under review. But at the moment, | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
there's nothing to suggest it is of a particular concern. There is no | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
intelligence to suggest any plans of attacks against the board? The UK | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
threat level is that severe, which means if Fred is likely, and that | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
applies across the UK. We are replying to those in our patch -- a | :48:31. | :48:42. | |
threat is likely. More broadly, Powys is a rural force area. You | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
think you are more sheltered from terrorist threats, or is it equally | :48:48. | :48:55. | |
valid target for Isis militant? We are more sheltered, the population | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
demographic we have is relatively homogenous. It is a real area. To be | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
fair, in Wales as a whole, we can be confident the risks are lower than | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
they might be elsewhere in London and the Midlands. All that doesn't | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
mean we mustn't be vigilant. We are on very high alert, and that does | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
apply in Powys and Wales and across the UK. Our forces would be called | :49:28. | :49:37. | |
upon, so we need to be prepared for that and vigilant. We need to be | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
vigilant within our borders, at our borders and beyond. We will play our | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
part in that, but we must keep everything in context and | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
perspective, and I think we can be whether to be reassured that we have | :49:50. | :50:02. | |
strong team -- strong communities. Thank you for your time. | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
Some who support air strikes in Syria say there's | :50:07. | :50:08. | |
They say there's a duty to help protect Syrian people from the yoke | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
of Islamic State in the midst of almost five years of civil war. | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
Bethan Lewis has been talking to two young Syrians - now studying | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
For 18-year-old Nanna and 17-year-old Nazim, life on the | :50:22. | :50:23. | |
Glamorgan coast is very different to their experiences | :50:24. | :50:25. | |
They are students at Atlantic College, an international sixth form | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
In the wake of the Westminster vote, they told me what they make | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
of air strikes and talked about their lives back home. | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
My life in Damascus was, before the war, was relatively pretty good. | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
The problem was that my dad used to own pharmacies and they used to be | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
In 2012 they were all destroyed, and the house was destroyed, | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
I remember sometimes we would spend three nights without sleep because | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
the bombing would be mostly at night and then you can't sleep, and during | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
Once we had a bomb just outside the class. | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
I used to live in the city of Homs, which is in central Syria. | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
In 2012 the situation in Homs got really bad and we had to move | :51:15. | :51:27. | |
During that, our old house was collapsed, | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
so there was no other way of returning to | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
My father and my older brother are in Germany. | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
They've been refugees there for more than a year now. | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
My mother and my younger brother are still in Syria, they now live | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
Nanna and Nazim are both hoping to visit their families in Syria | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
soon, and have strong views about the MPs' | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
I'm disappointed in the decision because more | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
The past two months proved that when Russia first, | :52:04. | :52:12. | |
and France after it, decided to bomb the Islamic State and it didn't | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
really pay off because they are, like, lots of civilians died for no | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
I felt that when they took that decision, they were not thinking | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
So I thought about it, if one of the MPs or even the | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
Prime Minister's daughter was stuck in Syria, | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
Joining us from our Cambridge studio is Sir Emyr Jones Parry - the former | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
Good morning. What do you make of the wisdom then of launching these | :52:46. | :53:03. | |
air strikes against IS and Syria? It was a difficult decision and a | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
fascinating debate in the House of Commons, which explore the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
arguments. There's a real risk of not doing anything, as well as the | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
risk of doing something. If you are under attack and there is a serious | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
threat, it is a question of judgment, what do you do? On | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
balance, the House of Commons believe the best thing was to act. I | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
think the important thing is, this is not just attacking from the air, | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
it is part of a coordinated plan. That'll have to involve a peace | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
process. That's going to be difficult but I look to the Russians | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
and Americans you actually come together and ready press for that. | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
It means looking after the refugees and helping the countries in the | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
region. And crucially it means getting the communities in which I | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
still operating two separate them from these evil barbarians, I'd call | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
them that, and in the end they will have to be troops on the ground. | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
That, I think, means local countries will have 2 come up and play their | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
part, because in the end what Iraq and Syria both need is better | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
governance, they need governments which are responsive, not a | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
government in Iraq which contributed to this problem, but governments | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
which have control of the territory and deliver security, economic | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
prospect, and do it without favour in ways that the people living in | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
those countries can respect and want to stay there. That's the long-term | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
challenge. We'll come back to that in a moment, but you are a man | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
skilled in the arts of diplomacy and those discussions will be ongoing. | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
Does the fact the UK is involved with air strikes in Syria, does that | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
help or hinder their position when it comes to those UN or Nato | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
discussions behind the scenes? There's always the assumption that | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
the permanent five members of the Security Council have a particular | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
role. That is right. It doesn't follow the role requires you to be | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
bombing in order to be able to exercise influence. I'm sure the | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
British diplomats and ministers have been trying to play their part. The | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
fundamental factors that Russia and the US have to come to some | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
accommodation, that a precondition, and then there need to be talks. | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
They will be difficult. We've had five years of civil war. How will | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
you bring the parties together, and which party is to bring together? In | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
against the Free Syrian Army, they are a mix of different groups. Who | :55:43. | :55:53. | |
is representing whom? Who is entitled to be at the table? And who | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
can then deliver the outcome of what ever might be agreed? They are | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
fundamental questions, and then when you add into the mix the countries | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
in the region, around, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, what are they doing to | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
facilitate and help the progress of ending negotiation? It is immensely | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
complicated, difficult, that's why they haven't made much progress so | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
far. But what they've got to do is get on with it and meanwhile these | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
attacks will have to continue in order to try and restrain Isis, to | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
stop any extension of territory that they control, and to deny them | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
through the attacks on the oil wells, to deny them funding, which | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
otherwise would be used for more nefarious purposes. Given, as you | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
are blind in the region, and the difficulties of organising trips on | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
the ground from the neighbouring countries, do you think it is almost | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
inevitable there will be, if not UK, Western military boots on the ground | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
and Syria? I don't think it is inevitable at all. I see no prospect | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
of British troops being deployed in Syria as part of any effort to try | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
and follow up what has been achieved by the attacks. Countries in the | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
region will have to play a bigger part. What I would look for, if | :57:24. | :57:34. | |
there was going to be an International of it, that the United | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
Nations might deploy peacekeepers, but that is a long way down the | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
road. One of the issues you highlighted is the need for Russia | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
and the US to come together in these peace talks. How difficult will that | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
be? Well, they met, didn't play, recently at a June 20 heads of | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
government meeting? And the body language between the president of | :58:01. | :58:02. | |
the United States and Russia didn't look to be the warmest, did it? The | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
fact is, they have a responsibility to try and work together, and I hope | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
that with suitable lubrication of the relationship that they can get | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
point where the two Administration 's, putting aside their specific | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
national interests, understand that globally the threat to all of us | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
from what is happening, the need to look after the people in the region, | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
to try and give them a decent government, for the first time in | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
generations almost, and to restore peace, security and some economic | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
prospect, that's the challenge. And it is meant, but it got to done. | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
Thank you very much for your time. On Tuesday the Welsh Government | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
publishes its draft budget for We heard on last week's programme | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
that tough decisions will have to be taken because | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
of cuts to how much money goes from the Treasury into the coffers | :59:01. | :59:02. | |
of ministers in Cardiff Bay. In last year's budget, more money | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
went into health, and local government | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
and educational were the big losers. There's no way of explaining it | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
in any other way. We have had a cut of 10% | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
in our budget, and there have been some areas that have seen reductions | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
in the funding. I would say that to | :59:21. | :59:22. | |
you straightaway. We know that there's been | :59:23. | :59:24. | |
difficulties, we've got a budget statement next | :59:25. | :59:26. | |
week, and we're looking at ways to make sure the FE is in a less | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
difficult position as we go forward. But you're quite right, it's been | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
very hard on the FE sector. We haven't been able to keep up | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
spending on everything, given the Jeff Jones is a former Labour | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
council leader and a local He joins me now, thank you for | :59:42. | :59:57. | |
coming in. Last week we had Jane Hutt, the finance minister for the | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
Welsh government, saying two decisions have to be made. That | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
almost underplaying it, really. It is a difficult spending review. The | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
local government it is difficult because, to be fair to the Welsh | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
assembly, for the first term of the UK coalition in 2010, the first four | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
years they protect the local government. It is any larger they | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
switched me to the health service. If you look at the spending review, | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
English local government is expected to cut 24% in that period. In my | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
opinion, Welsh government is three years behind English local | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
government in terms of cuts. There's a point that they are talking about | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
the funding for councils in England will be the council tax and business | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
rate, and nothing century. Will we reach that point in Wales? People | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
didn't pick this up because when the spending review was announced a look | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
that tax credits and the performance of the shadow Labour Chancellor, | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
instead of looking at what is a fundamental change. The next four | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
years English lord government will lose much of its central grants, and | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
the return and be expected to use business rates to replace it. I | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
think that is a move by the UK government to actually do Volvo | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
authority down to regional and local government, but at the same time you | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
get accountability. Devolving income tax to Wales is all part of the | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
system to reduce the size of the UK state. We know health will be | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
getting more money, they announced at last check, but that means areas | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
like education will lose out. I been hearing councils are telling schools | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
they are expecting 16% cuts in the next three years. You hearing that? | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
My own compounds of us been told some of its balance will be taken, | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
some ?32,000, because they are strapped for cash. Local govern | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
plays an important part of a help with social care. You have to be | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
careful that if you could local governor and social care, it has an | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
ongoing effect on the National Health Service, because you can't | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
get all people out of hospital. It adds to pressure. You've got to look | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
at local govern and say it isn't on its own, it does help health | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
service. When you are thinking about the decisions, how challenging word | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
beaver councils over the next year? Are you assuming more cuts? It is | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the period of the period up to 2020. It is the most difficult period | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
local Gutman has ever faced. There we are, that's all we have time | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
for. Thank you for watching. It is Coming up, all the rest | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
of the national political news. Now, every new MP thinks hard | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
about their first speech It's a chance to praise | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
the constituency and raise some issues that are close | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
to their heart, but there's a convention that on the whole | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
they're pretty uncontroversial. Well, occasionally that | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
convention is ignored. That's what the | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
Conservative MP Heidi Allen chose to do when she devoted her maiden | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
speech in October to a political hot potato, her own government's plans | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
to cut tax credits. The Prime Minister has asked us that | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
everything we do must pass the family test. Cutting tax credits | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
before wages rise does not achieve that. Showing children that their | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
parents would be better off not working at all does not achieve | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
that. Sending a message to the poorest and most honourable in our | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
society that we do not care does not achieve that either. Madam Deputy | :03:39. | :03:46. | |
Speaker, I believe the pace of these reforms is too hard, too fast. As | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
these proposals stand, too many people will be adversely affected. | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
Something must give. For those of us proud enough to call ourselves | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
compassionate conservatives, it must not be the backs of the working | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
family we purport to serve. So that was Heidi Allen speaking out | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
against tax credit cuts in October, cuts that were later dropped | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
by the chancellor under pressure from her and other Conservative MPs | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
and following a defeat in the House Well, Heidi Allen joins me now | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
for her first national TV interview Welcome to the programme. How did it | :04:19. | :04:29. | |
feel to go from being a little-known backbencher to a very rebellious one | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
in the matter of one speech? The word rebellious does make me smile. | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
You stand up in the House of Commons once and stand something and | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
suddenly you are a rebel. I did not expected to have the impact it did. | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
You didn't? Not at all. Was naivete? Rob Lee. It wasn't until my husband | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
picked me up and asked whether I had seen the evening news I realised the | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
momentum it was gathering. Because you were the headline. Pretty much. | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
How did your fellow MPs react? Absolutely brilliant, from the old | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
wise sages to the new members of Parliament, quietly in the corridors | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
and writing me well done messages, saying that I had said things they | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
wanted to but did not dare. And did George Osborne speak to you | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
afterwards? No, but to be fed the big Secretary of State 's are not | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
typically hanging around in the Commons anyway. He hasn't told you | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
of? Knows. You voted for tax credit cuts, so what changed? My not | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
understanding the detail. And I did not disagree that welfare needed | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
reform and I still believe that, but the detail about how and the timing | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
was not clear. And I'm on the work and pensions select committee also | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
and we were doing a lot of work into the reset and it just became clear | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
that the detail did not stack up. Do you think most MPs didn't understand | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the changes and then did or stuck to their curtains? I think everybody | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
started to understand the changes, but it was whether they were content | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
to stay with that or brave enough. Where would you make the ?12 billion | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
of savings? We still can make the man that is the point, but it is the | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
pace of change, how hard and fast. That was the part I could not | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
accept. We are fortunate now that George Osborne has managed to find | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
better tax receipts and we can take the cuts altogether. He hopes, that | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
is just the forecast. You know the Institute for Fiscal Studies has | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
said that actually there will still be many losers, it will be further | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
down the line, in fact it could be a more difficult time for the | :06:39. | :06:40. | |
Conservatives in the run-up to the election. Are you now against | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
universal credit which will be, in fact, where those losers will have | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
their money cut from? Not at all because universal credit, we are a | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
way off from delivering it across the country, but the olden days of | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
people earning an extra hour wage and benefit is being taken, that is | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
smoothed out with universal credit. Crucially you give people longer to | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
prepare. That was the bit I could not swallow, sorry, next April, | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
gone. But they will still lose the money. There will be a transition | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
period for some people, and there will be a chance for higher wages | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
for some people to have increased, but the cold hard reality, according | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
to the ISS, is that people could still lose over ?1000. That will | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
still be hitting those people you said could not be hit this time | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
round. But they will have longer to adjust to that. As you mention, the | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
minimum wage and tax threshold will increase and it gives people time to | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
prepare, to take on bed free childcare and so on. Doing it | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
overnight would give people the chance to change their lives. It is | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
having is somebody with you discussing what things you can do, | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
can you look for extra work, what is the childcare situation, and being | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
mental through that change. You said your colleagues reacted brilliantly | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
and you seem to have made friends with the Shadow Work and Pensions | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
Secretary who mentioned you in the interview, is it a worry you are | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
being lauded by the other side? Not at all, I am not interested in being | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
lauded by anybody, I just want good policy and the right decisions. I'd | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
am not interested in the party. I heard one of your articles earlier | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
in the programme about this new politics, that's what I want to see. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
A gentler kind of politics? Not even gentler, but just consensus, if you | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
have a good idea, let's go with it. I have no truck with, Labour are | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
terrible, conservatives are terrible. We are in that building to | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
make things better, let's just shot up and do it. It sounds great if it | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
can actually be done after years and generations of much more convert of | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
politics, yet to be seen, do you have ambitions to go up the ladder? | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
And is what you have done so far make it more difficult. I never did | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
and you are right, it would make it more difficult, but that is a great | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
sense of freedom. If I did not come into this to clamber up that greasy | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
pole than it does not matter because I am free and that is a fantastic | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
feeling, so long as my party don't deselect me. You have neatly moved | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
on to our next subject, so thank you very much. | :09:08. | :09:08. | |
So let's talk about the Labour Party. | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
The former frontbencher Tristram Hunt has been calling for unity this | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
morning, but that's something that seems to be in short supply to judge | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
Today's Observer is one of several to report that | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
the shadow cabinet is bracing itself for a 'revenge | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
reshuffle' following the emphatic win at the Oldham by-election. | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
It says the victory will embolden Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
get rid of those shadow ministers who didn't back him in the Commons | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
reports on a possible reshuffle, and also says that Mr Corbyn's | :09:35. | :09:46. | |
allies have accused MPs of spreading lies about his health in an attempt | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
A lot of talk of civil war in the Labour Party, party within a party, | :09:50. | :10:01. | |
groups coming from within the Labour Party to attack one side or the | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
other, is that how you see it? Yes. This is as bad if not worse than | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
when the SDP split. You had the extraordinary scenario where the | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
leader of the Labour Party passionately believes that we should | :10:14. | :10:15. | |
not be taking part in these air strikes and then you have the Shadow | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Foreign Secretary making the speech of a lifetime to say that absolutely | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
we should do that. And Jeremy Corbyn is saying that he is committed to a | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
new sort of inclusive style of politics, but some of the people who | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
support him in the momentum group and the stop the War coalition are | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
making some pretty barbed and unpleasant attacks on those people. | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
So yes, it's pretty difficult in the Labour Party at the moment. And is | :10:40. | :10:51. | |
it that anti-Corbyn MPs can not accept that he has won with a big | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
mandate? Are they crying foul at every turn because they cannot get | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
over it or is there an orchestrated campaign of intimidation that is, at | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
the very least, being ignored by the Centre, if not discouraged? It is | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
just that their views are fundamentally different. We should | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
not understate the utter despair of those MPs who have been around for a | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
long time, are on a different wing of the party to Jeremy Corbyn, you | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
talk to them at the moment it's like having a counselling session with | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
them. They simply do not see how this is going to play out, they | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
cannot see a mechanism for changing things, they are completely at odds | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
with this surge of new members who have joined the Labour Party, and | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
then you've got this spectre of this organisation called Momentum which | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
lets not forget is not just Labour Party members. It is an organisation | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
for people of any political persuasion. And there is a real fear | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
that Momentum will try to grip the centre of the party. We hear | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
endlessly about campaigns to deselect a number of MPs which is | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
denied by organisations like Momentum, which is not necessarily a | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
Labour Party organisation. What is it we are talking about here? | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
Deselection only really happens if an MP has committed a crime or is | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
involved in expenses, not for a differing opinion. This is where the | :12:16. | :12:27. | |
Corbyn-ites and the moderates have a similar opinion. The moderates want | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn but it is technically and constitutionally | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
impossible. Deselection is incredibly rare. It is usually some | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
kind of malfeasance on the part of the MP that promotes deselection. If | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
boundary review goes through before 2020, that provides an almost | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
accidental opportunity for a lot of people like Momentum to reselect | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
rather than deselect existing MPs in various constituencies, and at the | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
moment, ditched that MP and get some more aligned with their thinking. | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
And they could then extend their influence. We've got ten seconds, | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
Hilary Benn, what happened to him this week? He went from a pretty | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
pedestrian politician to the Premiership, he is now a very big | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
beast. And possible leader if it were ever to come. Such a long way | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
off. That's it for today, thank you for being our guests today. I'll be | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
back with daily politics tomorrow on BBC Two at noon, they never let me | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
go. Andrew will be back next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
Sunday politics. | :13:37. | :13:38. |